2024-07-12_Friday

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00:00:30.840 | Today on Radical Personal Finance, live Q&A.

00:00:48.800 | Welcome to Radical Personal Finance,

00:00:49.960 | a show dedicated to providing you

00:00:51.040 | with the knowledge, skills, insight, and encouragement

00:00:53.080 | you need to live a rich and meaningful life

00:00:54.840 | now, while building a plan for financial freedom

00:00:56.840 | in the coming years or less.

00:00:57.960 | My name is Joshua Sheets.

00:00:59.000 | Today is Friday, July 12, 2024.

00:01:02.520 | And on this Friday, as we do on most Fridays

00:01:04.640 | when I can arrange a microphone, we have live Q&A.

00:01:07.760 | You call in, talk about anything you want, raise any question,

00:01:10.320 | raise any topic, anything you want,

00:01:12.680 | you are in charge of today's podcast.

00:01:14.400 | [MUSIC PLAYING]

00:01:21.440 | For those of you who are new to the podcast,

00:01:22.800 | if you would like to join me on one of these Friday Q&A shows,

00:01:24.720 | you can do that by becoming a patron of the show.

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00:01:28.960 | Patreon.com/radicalpersonalfinance.

00:01:31.160 | Sign up to support the show on Patreon,

00:01:33.400 | and that will gain access for you to one of these Friday Q&A

00:01:36.360 | shows, which allows me to just control the number of callers

00:01:39.600 | just a little bit so we don't have mammoth four-hour shows.

00:01:42.200 | My mammoth three-hour shows are good enough.

00:01:44.800 | I usually stretch it out well enough.

00:01:46.640 | Rahul in Washington, welcome to the show.

00:01:48.640 | How can I serve you today, sir?

00:01:50.920 | Hey, Joshua.

00:01:51.640 | Great to talk to you.

00:01:53.280 | I've been listening to your podcast for some time,

00:01:56.040 | and I always found them intellectually stimulating

00:02:00.440 | and thought-provoking.

00:02:01.360 | So thanks for that.

00:02:02.360 | Thank you.

00:02:03.760 | So I had a question around internationalization

00:02:08.600 | and how to go about planning for it or how to approach it.

00:02:16.880 | This would be right up your alley,

00:02:18.520 | and I don't even need to ask.

00:02:19.720 | But there are two interesting parts that I want to touch on.

00:02:24.120 | One is for people who don't have a business,

00:02:28.880 | like people who are salaried and they have a good salary job.

00:02:34.680 | And the second is from the perspective

00:02:38.160 | of people who are immigrants in the US and not US citizens.

00:02:42.440 | So they have the option of--

00:02:47.480 | I think you talk about giving up the US citizenship as one

00:02:52.440 | of your things in the course that you have as well.

00:02:56.720 | So maybe if you can touch up on some of these,

00:03:02.200 | and I can give you more details.

00:03:04.240 | Yeah, is this kind of just a general conversation,

00:03:06.480 | or are you actually thinking about something yourself?

00:03:10.320 | I have talked about it many times before,

00:03:12.840 | but I think it's just a very tricky thing

00:03:17.760 | to wrap around in the sense of the impact on the family.

00:03:22.800 | And there's more than financial aspects involved as well.

00:03:28.320 | So I think those are probably things that are personal

00:03:35.920 | and one can work on on their own.

00:03:37.800 | But from your perspective, I wanted

00:03:41.800 | to get a sense of what are some of the implications

00:03:48.320 | or questions that one should think about or plan for,

00:03:53.480 | especially around--

00:03:55.360 | just to give you an example, I don't

00:03:57.840 | know what's the case for US.

00:03:59.040 | But I think some companies have the notion of an exit tax

00:04:06.040 | or if you move across borders.

00:04:09.880 | And there are some challenges.

00:04:12.600 | I know Canada probably has something

00:04:15.000 | where if you move there for some number of years

00:04:17.560 | and then come back, the income that you made there,

00:04:22.560 | there's some tax implications of that.

00:04:24.480 | So just broadly in those lines, yeah.

00:04:29.680 | So you're an immigrant to the United States, is that right?

00:04:32.720 | Yeah.

00:04:33.200 | And do you have permanent residency in the United States

00:04:35.560 | now?

00:04:36.360 | Not yet.

00:04:37.560 | I'm on the path to that.

00:04:39.000 | Great.

00:04:39.720 | Yeah.

00:04:40.200 | OK.

00:04:40.840 | And where are you from originally?

00:04:44.360 | From India.

00:04:45.360 | OK, and married, have children?

00:04:47.760 | Yes.

00:04:48.400 | And you're building wealth as a salaried worker

00:04:51.400 | in the United States.

00:04:53.920 | And do you have any reason to think

00:04:55.560 | that you might want to leave the United States?

00:04:59.720 | I think it's primarily the uncertainty of certain things.

00:05:03.880 | Like I think-- I'm not sure how much familiar you are

00:05:08.960 | about some of these things.

00:05:10.080 | But for certain countries, the backlog

00:05:13.040 | is huge in terms of how long it takes

00:05:17.480 | for people to get a green card.

00:05:19.080 | And India and China are among those.

00:05:21.120 | So I think it's just been a long time.

00:05:27.120 | And there's always some restriction

00:05:30.280 | in terms of whether or not you can start your business.

00:05:34.360 | Right.

00:05:34.960 | So let me cut straight to it, because I

00:05:37.400 | am very familiar with it.

00:05:38.440 | And let me give you some big picture ideas

00:05:40.280 | that I think are useful.

00:05:41.760 | First and foremost, internationalization

00:05:44.320 | should always be held in balance based upon where you are.

00:05:48.960 | So if you come from India and you

00:05:52.080 | were able to get a job that allows you to immigrate

00:05:54.160 | to the United States, there is almost certainly

00:05:58.080 | much more opportunity for you in the United States

00:06:00.520 | today than there is in India.

00:06:03.360 | You Indian immigrants are amazingly productive.

00:06:07.160 | I mean, I have enjoyed interacting with immigrants

00:06:10.800 | to the United States from India more than almost anything,

00:06:13.480 | because you are smart, you're incredibly hardworking,

00:06:16.680 | and there's such a great culture around the tech industry where--

00:06:20.800 | I mean, you guys go to the moon.

00:06:22.880 | You have a cultural expression of excellence.

00:06:27.000 | And the United States loves people

00:06:29.440 | like you who are hardworking, who are productive,

00:06:31.720 | who are intelligent.

00:06:33.320 | The country bends over backwards to reward people like you.

00:06:37.280 | And while there are some problems for people like you

00:06:40.200 | in the United States, I would say

00:06:41.680 | those problems are probably a lot smaller

00:06:43.560 | than they are in many other places of the world.

00:06:45.560 | Nowhere is perfect, but there's a lot of benefits.

00:06:48.520 | And the financial opportunities for someone like you

00:06:52.960 | are probably--

00:06:54.840 | are almost certainly so much higher in the United States

00:06:58.000 | than almost anywhere else in the world.

00:07:00.040 | There are other places that are friendly to immigrants,

00:07:03.560 | but the United States is exceedingly friendly

00:07:06.160 | to immigrants and rewards hard work and productivity

00:07:10.360 | more than most other places.

00:07:12.400 | The United States is a wonderful place to live.

00:07:15.360 | The culture is very, very accepting.

00:07:17.840 | One of the things that's my favorite things about Americans

00:07:20.760 | is that if you express the basics of American culture

00:07:25.160 | in the way that you express yourself,

00:07:28.200 | I am convinced that of all the places I have traveled,

00:07:31.720 | that the United States is probably

00:07:33.280 | the most welcoming country in the world for immigrants.

00:07:36.600 | Because we don't-- we kind of native-born Americans,

00:07:40.160 | we don't judge people based upon where they're from.

00:07:43.200 | We judge people primarily based upon who they are.

00:07:46.600 | And so it's not uncommon for an American to say,

00:07:51.520 | man, you're American through and through,

00:07:53.440 | or you're more American than I am,

00:07:54.880 | to someone who's an immigrant, who may not even

00:07:56.840 | be a US citizen yet.

00:07:58.280 | Because we see things culturally in terms

00:08:00.920 | of the American culture.

00:08:02.000 | And does somebody embrace the values

00:08:03.520 | that are common in the United States

00:08:05.240 | as compared to other places that are primarily focused

00:08:07.480 | on language or ethnicity or religion, things like that?

00:08:12.160 | And so I hope that you've had a good welcoming experience

00:08:15.480 | in the United States, because I see that.

00:08:18.400 | It's not perfect.

00:08:19.200 | There are a bunch of jerks everywhere,

00:08:20.780 | but it does work pretty well.

00:08:23.040 | On an overall basis--

00:08:24.400 | go ahead.

00:08:26.200 | Yeah, I just wanted to echo that.

00:08:27.760 | Yes, that's definitely true.

00:08:29.000 | I think I've definitely loved spending time here.

00:08:32.960 | And all the things that you talked about in terms

00:08:36.360 | of being a welcoming culture, the abundance

00:08:41.640 | of opportunities, the ability to make friendships and not

00:08:45.200 | have a language barrier, all those are true.

00:08:47.280 | Right.

00:08:47.780 | Go ahead.

00:08:48.280 | Good, OK.

00:08:49.000 | So the biggest question for you, though,

00:08:51.680 | is, can I stay in the United States?

00:08:54.360 | And so you need to-- in order to be

00:08:56.960 | able to stay permanently in the United States,

00:08:58.880 | you need to get your permanent residence or your green card.

00:09:01.960 | And it's not usually easy for people

00:09:04.400 | to get on a pathway to a green card or a permanent residence

00:09:07.640 | in the United States, especially if they're

00:09:10.320 | from India, from China, or from many other nations.

00:09:13.480 | I have spent a lot of time observing immigration systems

00:09:16.720 | around the world and participating in them myself.

00:09:19.320 | I have nothing good to say about the US immigration system.

00:09:23.000 | So if you are on track for something,

00:09:25.240 | and if your lawyer tells you, hey, we're

00:09:27.120 | on track for permanent residence,

00:09:28.800 | then it's probably best just to stay on track with that.

00:09:32.400 | Because there is actually-- once you get permanent residence,

00:09:35.120 | there is actually a genuine pathway

00:09:37.160 | to citizenship in the United States.

00:09:39.160 | And that is something that for your entire family

00:09:41.240 | can be an amazing value.

00:09:43.480 | When we think about internationalization,

00:09:45.920 | first we want to put on a lens of opportunity.

00:09:48.320 | And so you could think of this as kind of plan A.

00:09:50.400 | What place in the world offers me

00:09:53.040 | the best opportunity for me, my family, my skills,

00:09:56.320 | things like that?

00:09:57.560 | And the amount of opportunity that a place offers to you

00:10:02.520 | is going to depend on where you are in your life.

00:10:05.480 | So if you need opportunity for a job that's

00:10:08.640 | going to pay you wages, that allows you to save money

00:10:10.880 | and build assets, then you need to go to a place that

00:10:13.360 | has great job opportunities.

00:10:15.440 | And the United States is the best place in the world

00:10:17.520 | that I know of for that.

00:10:19.360 | Now, if you are wealthy and financially independent--

00:10:23.520 | you have your own businesses, you have your own savings,

00:10:25.840 | you have several millions of dollars in the bank--

00:10:28.000 | then the place that offers you opportunity,

00:10:30.480 | you may not need a job opportunity anymore.

00:10:32.880 | And the United States is pretty decent towards wealthy people,

00:10:36.080 | but there may be better corners of the earth.

00:10:38.300 | You may want to live on a little tax-free island somewhere

00:10:41.120 | so you can just be completely tax-free.

00:10:43.080 | Or you may want to live in a place that provides you

00:10:45.320 | with better investment opportunities with, again,

00:10:48.360 | low taxes.

00:10:49.600 | And so people who are wealthy are often

00:10:52.480 | those who are looking for other kinds of opportunities.

00:10:55.360 | But if you're still building wealth through employment,

00:10:57.880 | I don't know of a place that's better in the United States,

00:11:00.340 | especially with a long-term better future.

00:11:02.280 | There are places you can earn well in the United States--

00:11:04.840 | sorry, around the world.

00:11:06.120 | So many people, many of your fellow countrymen

00:11:08.600 | will go to a place like Dubai or many other centers

00:11:11.960 | where you can get a good job.

00:11:13.240 | But the challenge is that those places

00:11:15.600 | don't seem to me to be very good at acculturating people.

00:11:19.080 | Every single worker that I've known who's gone to Dubai

00:11:21.880 | says, OK, I can go here.

00:11:23.440 | I can make money.

00:11:24.360 | But they made some immigration reforms in the last year or two,

00:11:29.520 | but there's basically no pathway to permanent residence.

00:11:31.960 | And there's certainly no pathway to citizenship.

00:11:34.040 | And you're always going to be a foreigner.

00:11:35.520 | And the entire culture is based around people coming and going.

00:11:38.320 | So there's not the plantedness.

00:11:40.120 | There's not the settledness.

00:11:41.600 | But for you and your family in the United States,

00:11:43.780 | you have a totally different set of options.

00:11:45.560 | There is a pathway to permanent residency.

00:11:47.560 | There is a pathway to citizenship.

00:11:49.440 | And your children will be fully accepted Americans,

00:11:55.240 | just like you and your wife will be fully accepted Americans

00:11:58.240 | if you aren't already, regardless

00:11:59.720 | of actual citizenship status.

00:12:02.040 | So I think the United States has a lot to offer as a plan A.

00:12:06.680 | Now, with regard to a plan B, then you

00:12:09.560 | look at, well, why would I need another place to go?

00:12:12.000 | And so a lot of times, what I think about

00:12:15.020 | is, well, maybe there's an economic crisis

00:12:16.760 | in your home country.

00:12:17.640 | Or maybe you're facing some kind of political or religious

00:12:20.680 | persecution, things like that.

00:12:23.080 | And so it's not that the United States is the perfect place.

00:12:25.720 | But it may be more important for you

00:12:28.400 | to be focusing on the plan A stuff,

00:12:30.320 | building wealth at this stage of your life, than anything else.

00:12:33.760 | Now, there are a few interesting tricks

00:12:36.660 | that are probably not yet relevant to your life.

00:12:39.360 | So from time to time-- in fact, I've

00:12:41.400 | worked with a couple of Indian clients,

00:12:43.040 | specifically in this situation, who

00:12:46.120 | have built wealth in the United States,

00:12:48.120 | usually through being involved in an early-stage tech

00:12:51.120 | startup, having significant growth

00:12:53.080 | in the value of their stock.

00:12:54.480 | And now they're looking at things more strategically.

00:12:56.500 | And they're saying, should I go ahead

00:12:57.800 | and get permanent residence?

00:12:58.960 | Because after all, I don't want to be a covered person.

00:13:01.280 | And there's a few interesting little wrinkles

00:13:03.320 | of the tax code.

00:13:04.600 | There are a couple of planning ideas

00:13:06.080 | that can be put in where you can avoid US taxation,

00:13:09.000 | especially if you don't want to be connected

00:13:11.160 | to the country for the long-term.

00:13:13.400 | But that's probably-- unless you correct me,

00:13:16.120 | that's probably not applicable to you yet.

00:13:17.920 | And so I just wouldn't worry about it.

00:13:19.520 | I would say, you're going to be a lot better off living,

00:13:21.480 | working in the United States, building wealth,

00:13:23.920 | having a great place to live for your family,

00:13:26.240 | and then reassess those questions in the future.

00:13:28.720 | The nice thing-- the other challenge for Indians,

00:13:31.720 | the reason why they usually will be attracted to other options,

00:13:35.780 | is that the Indian passport makes

00:13:37.960 | your international travel not so great.

00:13:40.400 | And so India does not allow dual citizenship.

00:13:42.560 | So if you became an American citizen,

00:13:44.880 | you would have to surrender your Indian passport, as you know.

00:13:47.680 | But for most Indians, there's such a substantial upgrade

00:13:50.960 | in terms of how you're treated around the world, of now

00:13:54.040 | you're treated as an American instead of as an Indian,

00:13:56.660 | that that's worth it.

00:13:57.800 | And then since you can turn around and get

00:13:59.640 | your Indian Overseas Citizen card, which is basically

00:14:03.240 | a permanent residence that allows you to always have

00:14:05.360 | full access to India, the only thing

00:14:07.600 | you don't have as an Overseas Citizen

00:14:09.560 | is simply the Indian passport, which,

00:14:11.800 | compared to an American passport or a Canadian passport

00:14:14.520 | or a German passport or most places, is really inferior.

00:14:18.400 | So I think you can still be very well-connected

00:14:21.720 | to both countries.

00:14:22.920 | And your children can also access that.

00:14:24.680 | So that if in the future, India may very well

00:14:28.120 | be positioned to have an amazing century coming ahead.

00:14:31.240 | And so you can go back and forth between the two countries.

00:14:33.760 | You can live and work and bank in both places.

00:14:35.800 | You can build businesses in both places.

00:14:37.840 | And so to me, that seems like something really worth having.

00:14:42.160 | Makes sense.

00:14:42.760 | I think all of those things make sense.

00:14:45.200 | And I've thought about that.

00:14:47.120 | One part-- and I don't want to take a lot of time--

00:14:50.040 | but maybe you can touch upon the plan B aspect of it.

00:14:55.000 | So the plan A makes sense.

00:14:56.800 | And that's kind of how I'm looking at it.

00:14:59.100 | But plan B in terms of like, let's, as a backup option,

00:15:08.220 | if you could touch on other English-speaking countries

00:15:11.220 | or if you have experience with Australia and New Zealand,

00:15:15.940 | Canada, just briefly on any specific aspects

00:15:24.580 | there that one could investigate further on their own.

00:15:28.940 | Sure.

00:15:29.660 | So the way I look at this is quite simply

00:15:32.460 | just from a complementary redundancy basis.

00:15:37.220 | So most people are going to go through their lifetime.

00:15:39.900 | And most people are never going to need anything other

00:15:42.540 | than the country they were born in,

00:15:44.220 | the basics of the place that they're from.

00:15:46.740 | Everything's probably going to work out just fine.

00:15:49.220 | Most people aren't going to need anything else.

00:15:51.820 | So this world of internationalization,

00:15:54.620 | I think it's important.

00:15:55.860 | And I think it makes a lot of sense to pay attention to.

00:15:58.920 | But I also acknowledge that the chances of this being needed

00:16:03.340 | are fairly modest.

00:16:05.860 | I've made public podcasts that you probably

00:16:08.100 | listen to of the reasons that are the most persuasive to me.

00:16:11.460 | So for example, why did I myself want options

00:16:14.860 | other than the United States?

00:16:16.780 | Some big options were things like I

00:16:18.420 | was worried about my children being drafted in a war.

00:16:21.180 | I don't want my children to be drafted in some pointless war

00:16:23.820 | and sent off to the other side of the world to die.

00:16:25.940 | I don't want to go and serve in an army

00:16:27.600 | for some legitimate reason, because they

00:16:30.000 | think the cause is just and the war is morally righteous.

00:16:33.160 | That's their prerogative.

00:16:34.560 | But I don't want them to be stuck in a situation like that,

00:16:38.040 | where they have to go and die in a useless war.

00:16:41.040 | I would like more for their life than for them

00:16:43.480 | to be fed to--

00:16:46.080 | killed as cannon fodder.

00:16:48.040 | Other things, things like, hey, taxation

00:16:50.360 | could change in the future.

00:16:51.880 | And I don't think it's fair to my children

00:16:53.960 | if they're stuck paying for a system

00:16:56.140 | that their great-grandparents borrowed a bunch of money,

00:16:58.820 | and now my children are weighted down

00:17:00.860 | with the strain of all this.

00:17:02.500 | Now, I think that that's less likely.

00:17:04.100 | I think that the United States is going to default

00:17:06.340 | on all of its obligations through a variety of means,

00:17:09.100 | rather than impose onerous taxes.

00:17:11.580 | But hey, I could be wrong.

00:17:14.060 | And so it seems--

00:17:15.620 | and there are other reasons as well--

00:17:17.740 | moral causes of paying for something that is morally wrong,

00:17:21.860 | paying for a war that is morally wrong,

00:17:25.660 | or paying for things like abortion that is morally wrong.

00:17:29.540 | I think it's nice to not have to singe your conscience

00:17:33.500 | if you can avoid it.

00:17:34.800 | But on the whole, I'm not angry against the United States.

00:17:37.140 | And those are problems that most people face.

00:17:40.020 | What I've observed of thinking about these things

00:17:42.600 | is simply that in order for them to be effective,

00:17:46.620 | you have to do the preparation many years in advance.

00:17:49.660 | So for example, a couple of months ago, the Ukrainian--

00:17:52.300 | first of all, the best example that we have right now

00:17:55.100 | is the Russia-Ukraine war.

00:17:58.180 | Now, Russia's regulations are different.

00:18:00.660 | I've paid a lot of attention to both the Russians

00:18:02.740 | and the Ukrainian response.

00:18:04.780 | But I consider it a decent example.

00:18:07.020 | So when Ukraine was invaded, immediately

00:18:10.560 | the Ukrainian government closed the border

00:18:12.900 | to all men of fighting age, which was a very wide band.

00:18:17.260 | I forget the exact number.

00:18:18.540 | It may have been 18 to 60 or 18 to 65.

00:18:20.660 | It was 55.

00:18:21.500 | I don't remember.

00:18:22.220 | But basically, everyone who was an adult to old age,

00:18:25.140 | the Ukrainian government shut the border.

00:18:26.980 | That was really rough, because I believe that I understand.

00:18:30.460 | I think that if there is a just war at all,

00:18:33.340 | the Ukrainian cause is perfectly just.

00:18:36.100 | And if there is a time in which you're

00:18:37.980 | going to be willing to fight for your country, then this is it.

00:18:41.580 | You're going to go and defend your country

00:18:43.380 | from a foreign invader.

00:18:44.900 | I still look at it, and I consider the entire exercise

00:18:47.660 | enormously useless.

00:18:49.180 | And it hurts my heart, because I want

00:18:52.060 | to stand for righteousness.

00:18:53.220 | But on the whole, if you're going

00:18:54.620 | to go and die for something, you want

00:18:56.500 | to have at least some hope that your death is

00:18:58.740 | going to be for some good.

00:19:00.540 | And I don't see why--

00:19:01.680 | I don't see anybody whose lives have

00:19:03.180 | been improved with the hundreds of thousands

00:19:04.980 | of men who've died.

00:19:06.260 | I don't see how anything is better for it.

00:19:08.380 | And I don't see how the cause makes

00:19:10.620 | any difference in the long run.

00:19:12.540 | And so when I think about what I want for me in my life

00:19:15.060 | or for my sons in their lives, I don't

00:19:17.060 | want them to die in a useless cause

00:19:19.380 | and have your population stripped out with war.

00:19:22.020 | It seems pointless to me.

00:19:23.660 | So there is kind of an element of what's

00:19:26.740 | morally right and wrong.

00:19:28.420 | And then there's an element of what's practically intelligent.

00:19:31.140 | Anyway, as time has gone on, Ukraine

00:19:33.100 | has expanded its draft to include more and more categories

00:19:36.340 | of people.

00:19:37.300 | And what they have done, though, is they still

00:19:39.420 | are very, very low on soldiers.

00:19:41.100 | And so what they're doing right now--

00:19:42.620 | and I haven't checked to see if this is still in force.

00:19:45.660 | If it was in force a couple of months ago,

00:19:47.940 | I think it probably is.

00:19:48.940 | But I haven't checked as of today, July 12.

00:19:51.780 | But a couple of months ago, Ukraine

00:19:53.460 | passed a law that said that they have stopped

00:19:57.420 | providing consular services for all male Ukrainian citizens

00:20:02.380 | living abroad.

00:20:03.660 | And what that means is because they're not

00:20:05.940 | providing consular services.

00:20:07.140 | So if you had a Ukrainian passport,

00:20:09.460 | and let's say you had emigrated to the United States,

00:20:11.980 | but you held a Ukrainian passport

00:20:13.420 | and you lived in the United States

00:20:14.500 | for the last seven or eight years,

00:20:15.940 | but you're not a citizen of the United States,

00:20:17.860 | and now you just want to renew your Ukrainian passport,

00:20:20.820 | well, they won't renew it for you.

00:20:23.580 | They want you to go back to Ukraine and fight in the war.

00:20:26.500 | And they will not renew your passport for you.

00:20:28.460 | They're not arresting you at the embassy, at least not yet.

00:20:32.660 | But they're not going to renew your paperwork.

00:20:34.580 | What's even more challenging is, let's say

00:20:36.940 | that you had gone abroad.

00:20:38.580 | Let's say you had been abroad for many years,

00:20:40.980 | but you hadn't actually set up something

00:20:43.340 | like an official residence permit.

00:20:45.140 | Because if you had an American residence permit,

00:20:47.340 | but your passport expired, you would

00:20:49.340 | be stuck in the United States, unable to travel abroad.

00:20:52.820 | But you could still probably plead for asylum

00:20:55.380 | and keep your paperwork moving forward

00:20:58.140 | with regard to your residency.

00:20:59.780 | I've consulted with various people, especially

00:21:01.700 | Venezuelans in the United States,

00:21:03.060 | who have been able to do this.

00:21:04.060 | They couldn't get their Venezuelan passport

00:21:05.580 | renewed because the government wouldn't provide consular

00:21:07.980 | services.

00:21:08.660 | But they didn't get kicked out of the United States.

00:21:10.460 | So they were just stuck there until they could figure out

00:21:12.980 | a solution.

00:21:13.780 | And now, thankfully, many of them

00:21:15.220 | have been able to get their documents, again, renewed.

00:21:18.060 | But what if you were applying for a residence program?

00:21:20.940 | Well, when you go to apply for a residence program,

00:21:23.780 | most of the time--

00:21:25.300 | all the time, excuse me, all the time,

00:21:26.980 | you need a birth certificate.

00:21:29.020 | And if your country is part of the Hague Convention,

00:21:32.260 | then you need to have your birth certificate apostilled.

00:21:35.060 | Well, the Ukrainian embassy won't provide birth

00:21:37.300 | certificates and won't apostill them

00:21:39.820 | for its citizens living abroad.

00:21:42.420 | It won't provide background reports of--

00:21:46.060 | police background reports, which are also

00:21:48.020 | a standard part of the package.

00:21:49.940 | So those Ukrainians who left Ukraine 10 years ago,

00:21:54.220 | who have decided that it doesn't make sense for me to go

00:21:57.620 | and potentially sacrifice my life in this war,

00:22:00.500 | even though they're probably entirely

00:22:02.380 | on the side of the Ukrainians, and even though, in many cases,

00:22:05.660 | maybe they do much more good from abroad.

00:22:08.100 | The Americans only won their revolution

00:22:09.820 | because of the work that Ben Franklin

00:22:11.140 | did to get the French on their side.

00:22:12.780 | So who knows?

00:22:13.340 | Maybe they're doing all kinds of stuff abroad.

00:22:15.260 | But without special dispensation from the government,

00:22:17.540 | they can't make it.

00:22:19.420 | So examples like that have basically

00:22:21.980 | convinced me that what you need to do

00:22:23.980 | is you need to have all of this stuff in place,

00:22:25.980 | preferably a decade or two before you need it.

00:22:28.500 | So a Ukrainian dual national who is American-Ukrainian

00:22:32.900 | has no problem.

00:22:33.660 | Because, OK, he can't renew his Ukrainian passport.

00:22:35.780 | No problem.

00:22:37.180 | But he still has his American one.

00:22:38.900 | Or a Ukrainian who moved to Mexico

00:22:42.180 | and had a Mexican residency, he's OK.

00:22:44.820 | He's got it taken care of, because he can stay in Mexico.

00:22:47.500 | And then later on, he can become a Mexican citizen.

00:22:51.220 | He has a backup plan.

00:22:52.220 | But that's got to be done before you need it.

00:22:54.300 | So I look at that, and I just say, all right, two is one.

00:22:56.620 | One is none.

00:22:57.160 | Three is a guarantee.

00:22:58.000 | And that's for me.

00:22:59.020 | So how can I think about the three different things

00:23:02.020 | that I need in any particular situation?

00:23:03.940 | And as you know, because it sounds like you

00:23:05.700 | took my international escape plan course,

00:23:08.060 | and if anyone listening hasn't taken it,

00:23:10.020 | internationalescapeplan.com, please.

00:23:12.100 | internationalescapeplan.com.

00:23:13.740 | I look at it and say, all right, I

00:23:15.100 | need three forms of identification

00:23:16.740 | to get me across a border.

00:23:18.660 | And so I myself have two US passports and a passport card,

00:23:23.540 | plus a global entry card.

00:23:25.580 | Well, so that's four.

00:23:26.540 | I have four ways to get back and forth across a border.

00:23:29.620 | And two of them that'll work on airplanes, and four of them

00:23:32.540 | that'll work across the land and sea borders around the United

00:23:35.100 | States.

00:23:35.900 | But then I say, well, I need three places

00:23:38.380 | that I can go around the world.

00:23:39.620 | Two is one.

00:23:40.100 | One is none.

00:23:40.540 | Three is a guarantee.

00:23:41.380 | So let me just choose three places

00:23:43.060 | and set up three different residency permits.

00:23:45.300 | And there's nothing magical about three.

00:23:46.940 | One is good.

00:23:48.100 | So you, as an Indian with an American residency,

00:23:51.740 | are far better off than an Indian who doesn't

00:23:53.540 | have an American residency.

00:23:55.100 | And so it's just a matter of working towards it

00:23:58.860 | systematically over time, when you see an opportunity that

00:24:01.220 | fits you, to go ahead and build a portfolio.

00:24:03.660 | So I want to have three countries that I can live in.

00:24:05.860 | I'd like for those countries to be different from one another.

00:24:08.660 | Sometimes I want to be with a big country where I've got good

00:24:11.200 | economic opportunities.

00:24:12.200 | Sometimes, if I could, I'd love to have a neutral country that

00:24:16.100 | was less likely to be involved in wars.

00:24:18.420 | And maybe I'd like to have a tax-free country,

00:24:20.480 | so I can use that as a future option.

00:24:22.820 | There's lots of ways that you can look for things,

00:24:25.380 | but we're looking for complementary redundancy.

00:24:27.600 | Now, what's the problem?

00:24:29.100 | Well, the problem is that none of this stuff is free or easy.

00:24:31.700 | So you mentioned English-speaking countries.

00:24:33.580 | Well, that's not actually a very big list.

00:24:36.380 | You've got the United States.

00:24:37.780 | You've got Canada.

00:24:38.700 | You've got Great Britain.

00:24:39.700 | You've got Ireland.

00:24:40.860 | You've got Australia.

00:24:41.860 | You've got New Zealand.

00:24:43.020 | I think those six are all that are officially

00:24:47.540 | English-speaking.

00:24:48.260 | Now, English is widely spoken all around the world,

00:24:50.740 | but those are the big six English-speaking countries.

00:24:54.180 | And most of them are not that interested in making it easy

00:24:58.100 | for immigrants to come there.

00:24:59.700 | And so you need to generally have quite a bit of money

00:25:01.940 | if you're going to buy yourself a residence

00:25:03.740 | permit in the United States or in Canada.

00:25:05.420 | You need to have a good bit of money generally,

00:25:07.340 | or you need to be highly educated.

00:25:08.820 | Or in general, they have high requirements for you

00:25:12.300 | to be there physically on the ground, which

00:25:14.100 | is hard to satisfy if you're working a job where

00:25:17.620 | you're working in Seattle.

00:25:19.540 | And so you may not be able to access those countries.

00:25:21.900 | However, that doesn't mean there aren't other opportunities.

00:25:24.940 | You probably could get yourself a Mexican residence

00:25:27.100 | permit, which is world class.

00:25:29.540 | All Americans should have a Mexican residence permit.

00:25:32.140 | Latin America is very accepting of immigrants

00:25:34.900 | who can come and show that they have

00:25:36.340 | some form of passive income.

00:25:38.100 | Latin America looks for passive income.

00:25:39.980 | Asia looks for net worth.

00:25:41.380 | So if you have net worth that you've built up,

00:25:43.340 | you can get permits to live in various places.

00:25:46.980 | So it's not easy to get backup plans

00:25:50.740 | in the English-speaking countries,

00:25:52.140 | although it's doable if you have enough money.

00:25:54.340 | But that may not necessarily be what you need,

00:25:56.500 | because it's just a matter of choosing--

00:25:59.740 | really, any place is good as a backup

00:26:04.860 | as you're working towards your ideal scenario.

00:26:06.780 | But due to the physical presence requirements,

00:26:08.700 | you probably can't deal with most of the programs

00:26:11.100 | in the English-speaking countries.

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00:26:43.500 | - God, it makes sense.

00:26:45.580 | Thanks a lot.

00:26:46.420 | - My pleasure.

00:26:48.260 | Did I answer your questions?

00:26:52.420 | - Yes, I think I got enough to chew upon

00:26:56.940 | and I loved your take on some of these things.

00:27:01.100 | - Good, good.

00:27:01.940 | - Thanks.

00:27:02.780 | - Yeah, it's not easy,

00:27:03.620 | but all I would say is I love to think

00:27:07.060 | about the extreme cases.

00:27:09.100 | Meaning, if I could, I could lay out the plans

00:27:12.380 | of here are the 10 different citizenships

00:27:14.300 | that I'd like to get in my lifetime.

00:27:17.940 | What I learned is simply going from one to two

00:27:20.940 | is an enormous increase in options

00:27:23.900 | and probably all that anybody needs.

00:27:25.700 | Going from two to three almost certainly covers everything.

00:27:29.740 | So if, as an Indian, you can't get another citizenship

00:27:33.860 | without losing your Indian citizenship.

00:27:36.060 | So that's a big cost.

00:27:38.020 | So I would just look first at residencies

00:27:40.340 | and say, all right, United States, I've got one there.

00:27:43.300 | I can't be absent from the United States

00:27:45.500 | for significant periods of time

00:27:46.860 | or I'll lose my pathway to permanent residency

00:27:49.820 | and I'll lose my pathway to citizenship.

00:27:52.340 | So the United States is probably where it's gonna be

00:27:54.740 | for all the reasons we discussed

00:27:55.980 | at the beginning of the call.

00:27:57.260 | So I would just choose one or another country

00:27:59.980 | and look around and see if there's a residence permit

00:28:02.220 | that I can get pretty simply

00:28:03.500 | that doesn't have a lot of physical presence requirement.

00:28:05.500 | Hint, hint, Mexico.

00:28:07.140 | Mexico within a few years is going to change their laws,

00:28:10.100 | I'm sure of it, 'cause they all do, they always do.

00:28:12.660 | And the Mexican investor with means

00:28:16.020 | or person of means visa program is so stinking generous.

00:28:19.500 | It's unmatched on a global basis.

00:28:21.940 | So that should be almost certainly your next action.

00:28:25.420 | And it makes really great strategic sense

00:28:28.140 | because of where you are right now in the United States.

00:28:31.540 | So that would be kind of the next action,

00:28:33.340 | but recognize that there are many, many other countries

00:28:36.140 | that are also out there.

00:28:38.180 | Just know that this probably shouldn't be your next hobby.

00:28:42.580 | It's a lot of hassle to go and pick this stuff up.

00:28:44.580 | So try to build a strategic plan,

00:28:46.600 | get into it because it's fun for a time,

00:28:48.740 | but then once you get the stuff done, then let it go.

00:28:52.580 | You don't need eight, just three.

00:28:55.500 | Working towards three over the course of the next decade

00:28:57.500 | should be fine.

00:28:58.600 | All right, we go on to Richard in New York.

00:29:02.020 | Richard, welcome to the show.

00:29:02.860 | How can I serve you today?

00:29:04.100 | - Hey, Joshua.

00:29:06.580 | Yes, my name's Richard.

00:29:07.580 | I'm a 39-year-old male and I'm recently married.

00:29:11.460 | Very much thanks to the advice that you've given

00:29:13.460 | about getting married sooner rather than later.

00:29:15.480 | So very much appreciate that.

00:29:16.820 | - Congratulations.

00:29:17.660 | - That was ideal.

00:29:19.180 | - Thank you so much.

00:29:20.020 | And I do not have a prenup

00:29:21.180 | and that episode was very pivotal in my decision-making.

00:29:25.900 | So once again, thank you.

00:29:26.940 | - Good.

00:29:27.780 | - I'm currently a real estate investor

00:29:30.060 | and I'm living abroad with my wife

00:29:31.820 | and I have no W-2 or earned income since I am abroad.

00:29:36.620 | So the dilemma is currently I'm about $150,000 in debt,

00:29:41.060 | in various debt, mostly credit card,

00:29:43.640 | which I know is really bad,

00:29:45.340 | but a net worth of about 1.5 million,

00:29:48.340 | which is strictly in real estate and in crypto.

00:29:51.020 | The other problem is I have basically zero cash

00:29:54.540 | and zero liquidity.

00:29:56.280 | And right now I'm living off of my wife's savings

00:29:59.340 | and she has an unsteady, unpredictable income.

00:30:03.140 | So obviously this is not a good place to be in

00:30:04.900 | and I have a bunch of real estate transactions,

00:30:07.740 | properties for sale, refinances in progress

00:30:10.260 | to get me out of this liquidity crunch.

00:30:12.680 | But basically my question comes down to this.

00:30:14.820 | So currently I also have a failed flip

00:30:16.940 | that's not going so well, it's still on the market for sale.

00:30:19.940 | And I could either just sell it at a loss right now

00:30:22.900 | and just, so after the refinances and sales

00:30:25.540 | of all these other properties and what have you,

00:30:27.900 | if I sell this property at a loss,

00:30:30.200 | I would probably have about $50,000 net,

00:30:33.060 | which would be used for me to live off of,

00:30:35.140 | as well as to plan a wedding.

00:30:37.100 | And also thanks to your advice,

00:30:38.620 | we were planning on a very simple, rather simple wedding,

00:30:41.660 | as opposed to delaying.

00:30:44.140 | Or I can keep this failed flip,

00:30:47.340 | which is currently costing me about $3,500 a month

00:30:50.980 | in interest, but in order to keep it,

00:30:53.260 | I would have to sell two Bitcoin,

00:30:55.380 | which I own, currently own eight,

00:30:58.000 | and they are in a self-directed retirement account.

00:31:01.500 | So by selling those two Bitcoin,

00:31:04.400 | it would obviously be all taxable income.

00:31:07.220 | But by doing so, it would allow me to keep this flip,

00:31:09.780 | which is like I said, costing 3,500 a month,

00:31:12.300 | and it would either be cashflow neutral

00:31:14.180 | or cashflow positive net of expenses,

00:31:17.220 | management fees, CapEx, et cetera.

00:31:21.100 | And just a little bit more background info,

00:31:23.020 | the house is worth about 500,000.

00:31:25.900 | So basically the question is to sell the flip at a loss,

00:31:30.100 | and also one last thing is,

00:31:31.740 | if I were to sell the two Bitcoin,

00:31:33.860 | it would be about $58,000.

00:31:36.660 | Well, that's what the price of the Bitcoin is right now.

00:31:39.700 | Net, and that would also be used to pay for a wedding

00:31:42.740 | as well as living expenses, but just bear in mind,

00:31:45.540 | it would be the taxable implications for the following year.

00:31:48.980 | - Understood, great summary, by the way.

00:31:51.460 | Do you, are you currently, excuse me,

00:31:54.260 | are you current on your debts at the moment?

00:31:57.840 | - Yeah, so I'm working on refinances.

00:32:01.740 | I have a couple of properties for sale, so yes.

00:32:05.580 | - Okay, but your credit cards are paid at the moment,

00:32:07.940 | and although-- - Yep, no, no,

00:32:10.180 | credit score of 716, so yep.

00:32:12.860 | - All right, are you employable?

00:32:15.940 | Could you get a job?

00:32:17.180 | - Oh, so I was a pharmacist in the States.

00:32:22.820 | I'm now living abroad in Europe,

00:32:24.820 | and so that was, unfortunately those skills,

00:32:28.340 | my certifications, they wouldn't transfer over,

00:32:31.820 | and it would take quite a bit of a while to, yeah.

00:32:34.180 | So just in brief, no.

00:32:35.780 | - What does living abroad mean?

00:32:37.220 | Like, you're just renting in a flat somewhere in Europe,

00:32:39.460 | and you've been there for a little while,

00:32:40.940 | or you're totally all in Europe at this point?

00:32:44.040 | - So that's, well, this is a lot of talk

00:32:47.220 | about internationalization.

00:32:48.460 | So my wife is having, we're having some troubles

00:32:50.740 | with her getting her green card over here.

00:32:53.060 | So if she can't come to me, I decided to come over to her.

00:32:56.500 | So I'm here in Europe, and just, yeah, living abroad.

00:33:00.500 | - All right, your wife is European, not American,

00:33:02.740 | and you couldn't get her residence

00:33:04.660 | in the United States until married,

00:33:06.740 | but you are legally married now?

00:33:08.400 | - Yes.

00:33:10.420 | - And what is the advice for somebody

00:33:12.220 | who's legally married to a foreign national

00:33:14.100 | with regard to getting U.S. residency?

00:33:16.100 | - So we're in the process of getting her green card,

00:33:20.540 | as well as me applying for a E.U. residency here.

00:33:24.260 | - Okay.

00:33:25.380 | - To have both options for both of us.

00:33:27.460 | - Well, basically, so let's pretend

00:33:32.020 | that you could move back to the United States.

00:33:34.980 | Are there, is it called locum's work in pharmacy work?

00:33:39.060 | Like, are there, have you looked to see if pharmacists,

00:33:42.900 | are you current on your certifications as a pharmacist,

00:33:45.660 | and have you looked to see if there are positions

00:33:47.300 | available as a pharmacist?

00:33:48.660 | - Yeah, so I actually recently quit my job

00:33:52.260 | after we got married because of the visa issues.

00:33:55.820 | They said it would take,

00:33:56.660 | even though we're already legally married,

00:33:57.920 | we got married abroad, it would take about a year

00:34:01.380 | to a year and a half for her to get her papers.

00:34:04.580 | So instead of doing long distance,

00:34:06.900 | which is what we have been doing,

00:34:08.780 | I decided, well, if she can't come here,

00:34:10.540 | I'm just gonna go there. - Understood.

00:34:11.900 | - Or, well, I'm here now. - Understood.

00:34:13.660 | Where in Europe are you currently living?

00:34:16.460 | - In Spain. - Okay.

00:34:17.760 | Well, I don't love,

00:34:23.980 | there are a few plans that I don't love.

00:34:27.620 | So the first plan that I don't love

00:34:31.720 | is I don't love you selling assets if it can be avoided.

00:34:36.420 | It certainly is smart for you to sell assets

00:34:43.580 | if you are avoiding being delinquent on your debts,

00:34:48.620 | going bankrupt, things like that.

00:34:50.660 | So you do have assets that you could sell.

00:34:53.420 | And if you have a conviction about the market value

00:34:57.940 | of some of your assets,

00:34:59.440 | if you think that Bitcoin is going down by 50%

00:35:01.880 | in the next five months,

00:35:03.600 | or if you think that real estate is going down by 50%

00:35:06.720 | in the next five months, then clearly you should sell.

00:35:10.560 | Taxes in and of themselves are never a sufficient reason

00:35:14.820 | to just hold on to a bad investment.

00:35:17.480 | But you didn't articulate to me

00:35:19.000 | that you think your real estate values are going to decline

00:35:22.200 | or that you think your Bitcoin is going to decline in value.

00:35:25.720 | You simply said, you know, I've got these assets

00:35:28.880 | that I could sell to cover my debts

00:35:30.920 | and cover my expenses if I needed to.

00:35:33.920 | So I don't love the idea of selling assets

00:35:35.720 | unless it's absolutely, unless it's actually necessary.

00:35:39.600 | Now, you should always sell any investment asset

00:35:44.600 | that is a bad deal.

00:35:47.300 | And so if something you know,

00:35:49.680 | hey, I bought this house

00:35:50.960 | thinking this house was going to be great,

00:35:52.500 | but now I've found out

00:35:53.680 | that I'm never going to be able to rent it

00:35:55.520 | because of X, Y, Z problem, then fine, sell it.

00:35:59.460 | But I don't love the idea of you doing it

00:36:00.960 | unless it's necessary.

00:36:02.520 | So let's move on to other options.

00:36:04.360 | I don't want you to get behind on your debts.

00:36:06.240 | I don't want you to not pay bills.

00:36:08.100 | I don't want you to have trouble there.

00:36:12.180 | That's not going to work.

00:36:13.340 | So the obvious solution here is for you to get a job.

00:36:17.100 | If you could get cashflow coming in from a job of some kind,

00:36:22.100 | then that can solve your problem.

00:36:24.360 | And if you guys are newlyweds,

00:36:26.080 | your wife has a job, she has income,

00:36:28.680 | if you can currently live on her salary,

00:36:32.280 | then every dollar that you earn

00:36:34.640 | can be put towards paying off the debt.

00:36:37.040 | And if you were earning a pharmacist's wages,

00:36:39.480 | then a couple of years from now,

00:36:41.120 | you may sell a house, you can keep the Bitcoin,

00:36:43.720 | but you may turn around and you have the ability then

00:36:46.120 | to just with your cashflow,

00:36:47.520 | two years from now, you're totally out of debt.

00:36:49.620 | And that's going to be the one

00:36:51.200 | that you're the happiest with

00:36:52.120 | 'cause then you still own all the real estate,

00:36:53.640 | you still own the Bitcoin,

00:36:55.000 | and now you've taken care of the debt.

00:36:56.960 | So I don't mind, okay, does it stink to be in debt?

00:36:59.740 | Sure, that sucks for a time,

00:37:01.320 | but you could probably be one to three years away

00:37:03.680 | from making it.

00:37:05.120 | And it may be the case that, again,

00:37:07.880 | you can turn one of your deals into a significant profit.

00:37:10.880 | So I'm not universally saying don't sell a house.

00:37:14.680 | If there's a house that makes sense to sell,

00:37:17.320 | then sell a house.

00:37:18.640 | And I'm not universally saying,

00:37:21.280 | I think I'm repeating myself.

00:37:22.480 | I'm not saying what to do it.

00:37:23.920 | What I am saying is the obvious solution

00:37:25.600 | is keep your expenses as close to nothing as possible

00:37:29.800 | and increase your income.

00:37:31.360 | So the strategic move from an income perspective

00:37:34.480 | will be this.

00:37:35.400 | First of all, once you have,

00:37:37.720 | so you're married to a European woman.

00:37:42.040 | So that gives you full rights of residence

00:37:44.280 | in the European Union, including right to work.

00:37:47.380 | So you need to really make sure you understand

00:37:50.880 | everything that is necessary

00:37:53.320 | for you to work as a pharmacist or in a similar profession

00:37:58.320 | or a related profession in Europe.

00:38:00.640 | And you should understand what those options are for you.

00:38:05.440 | It's probably not gonna be your best option,

00:38:07.720 | especially in Spain, right?

00:38:08.920 | The Spanish wanna hire Spaniards.

00:38:11.640 | They're not so welcoming as Americans are to foreigners,

00:38:15.400 | especially in fancy jobs like that,

00:38:17.200 | even from just a cultural perspective.

00:38:19.560 | But don't take my word for it.

00:38:22.080 | Go and look, go and see what you can find

00:38:23.920 | and make sure you understand a lot about the options.

00:38:26.600 | Does your wife work in a physical office

00:38:28.680 | or does her job have some remote component?

00:38:30.840 | - Well, it's very seasonal.

00:38:33.960 | So it's very seasonal work.

00:38:35.240 | So it's during the summer, like during peak tourism

00:38:38.240 | and then it dies off in the winter.

00:38:40.640 | But I did wanna just touch base

00:38:42.680 | because either way, like so this,

00:38:46.320 | when I said if I sold the flip at a loss

00:38:48.440 | and it would be 50K positive net to like,

00:38:51.960 | that would be positive

00:38:52.800 | as well as being able to keep the home,

00:38:54.200 | I guess I was really just trying to decide between,

00:38:56.560 | I understand your advice of getting a job.

00:38:58.720 | And so for pharmacy, that'd be quite difficult

00:39:00.880 | because I mean, I do speak Spanish,

00:39:02.800 | but in terms of the certifications and like,

00:39:06.000 | it's just, it would take a couple of years at the least.

00:39:10.000 | So that kind of takes that off the table for right now

00:39:12.400 | in terms of working or getting a job.

00:39:15.240 | So I kind of just wanted to point that out,

00:39:16.600 | to kind of just go back to the,

00:39:18.360 | given these options of like,

00:39:19.920 | if selling one and having like 50,000 net

00:39:22.640 | or versus keeping the asset,

00:39:25.280 | but having to sell Bitcoin that I own

00:39:30.040 | in order to have, to pay off all the debts, right?

00:39:33.000 | This is net of the $150,000 of debt.

00:39:37.120 | Just trying to get some insight on your recommendations

00:39:40.520 | aside from getting a job.

00:39:42.400 | - All right, I'll answer that directly,

00:39:44.200 | but let me just finish getting the job

00:39:45.440 | 'cause I really think that's the best solution, all right?

00:39:47.720 | The other thing would be, I would,

00:39:49.800 | if you're still current as a pharmacist

00:39:51.480 | in the United States,

00:39:52.760 | I would commute to the United States for a couple of weeks

00:39:55.120 | to try to do relief work for other pharmacists.

00:39:57.920 | Or I would say, honey, listen,

00:40:00.280 | I'm so glad to be married to you.

00:40:02.040 | Let me go and work for six months in the United States

00:40:04.480 | and I'll come and see you on long weekends.

00:40:08.320 | But you do need to, you need to fix your financial problem.

00:40:13.400 | And so I want, so you know me,

00:40:15.520 | I wanna encourage people to be together.

00:40:17.440 | I want you to be together with your wife.

00:40:18.920 | I want her to be together with you.

00:40:20.640 | Obviously, you gotta be careful

00:40:21.840 | with regard to immigration stuff,

00:40:23.320 | making sure that you're complying

00:40:24.560 | with whatever's necessary for the immigration,

00:40:27.480 | for you to be together long-term.

00:40:29.560 | But when you make a mess, sometimes you gotta fix it.

00:40:32.080 | And it's gonna be easier for you to fix it now

00:40:35.100 | than to fix it five years from now.

00:40:37.040 | And so if you can avoid selling assets

00:40:40.600 | that you wouldn't otherwise sell,

00:40:42.320 | and if you can put in a year or two of hard work

00:40:45.400 | with some separation, that's gonna be okay.

00:40:50.400 | And how do I strike the right tone?

00:40:54.280 | In the modern world, we are so fixated on our lifestyle

00:40:58.560 | and what we want that in many cases,

00:41:01.480 | we have forgotten how to sacrifice.

00:41:03.520 | I'll give just two stories as an example.

00:41:06.080 | One of my favorites was, a few years ago,

00:41:08.040 | I was reading the Laura Ingalls Wilder series

00:41:10.320 | with my children.

00:41:11.540 | And there's a part in the series,

00:41:13.640 | I think it's on the banks of Plum Creek,

00:41:16.500 | where the Pa, the father of the story,

00:41:20.480 | their entire farm is eaten by locusts

00:41:23.680 | and all their crops are destroyed.

00:41:26.840 | But of course, he's got four children

00:41:28.640 | that he's got to take care of,

00:41:30.200 | and a wife that he's got to take care of,

00:41:31.460 | and he's got debts from a house that he's built,

00:41:33.200 | and things like that.

00:41:34.480 | So here he goes, and he puts on his boots,

00:41:37.920 | and he left his family at home,

00:41:39.680 | and he literally walked until he found work.

00:41:42.580 | And he walked, I think it was something like 200 miles away,

00:41:45.800 | 250, 300 miles, and he didn't see his family

00:41:48.160 | for an entire season until he was able to earn enough

00:41:50.520 | to pay off his debts and to fix his problem.

00:41:53.840 | That's historically normal in many places.

00:41:57.220 | It's also historically normal even within our lifetime.

00:42:00.040 | When my parents were married, my dad was in the military.

00:42:03.400 | And so during the first few years of their marriage,

00:42:06.000 | he was shipped off in the Navy

00:42:07.900 | for six-month cruises at a time.

00:42:09.920 | And so he was gone for 18 months

00:42:12.520 | out of the first probably 24, 30 months of their marriage,

00:42:15.440 | something like that.

00:42:16.520 | Now, nobody thinks that's a good plan long-term,

00:42:20.680 | and I wanna intentionally make decisions to avoid that.

00:42:24.680 | So if we were talking and you didn't have the situation

00:42:28.040 | and you said, "All right, well, I'm considering doing this,"

00:42:30.640 | and I would say, "No, you wanna be with your wife.

00:42:32.120 | "You wanna be together with her.

00:42:33.120 | "Absolutely, that's what you should be doing,

00:42:34.360 | "is newlyweds."

00:42:35.680 | But I also recommend that. - Okay, thank you, thank you.

00:42:37.420 | - Go ahead. - Mm-hmm.

00:42:38.260 | - Sure. - Mm-hmm, okay.

00:42:39.500 | Oh, no, I'm so sorry.

00:42:40.820 | So we've been together for two years,

00:42:42.580 | and it's always been long-distance

00:42:44.900 | because of visa issues and what have you.

00:42:47.260 | So a big part of it.

00:42:50.380 | And also because I had some real estate,

00:42:52.500 | some bad investments, and had to go.

00:42:54.740 | I actually went back to work,

00:42:56.420 | and went back for about a year and worked.

00:43:00.900 | And recently, after getting married, I was like,

00:43:02.940 | "Okay, this is the time to finally be together."

00:43:05.760 | Since for the two years that we've been dating,

00:43:08.420 | we're now over, slightly over,

00:43:10.120 | we've only physically been together

00:43:12.620 | maybe like three or four months.

00:43:14.100 | So it just seemed kind of-- - Okay.

00:43:15.860 | - Ridiculous to-- - I understand.

00:43:17.540 | - Get married, and then, "I'm gonna leave you, honey.

00:43:19.560 | "Here you go, goodbye."

00:43:20.700 | - Okay, all right, so I'll move on.

00:43:23.140 | I think I've said my piece.

00:43:24.300 | I just wanna be complete in order to emphasize it.

00:43:27.740 | - Oh, no, no, no. - If I woke up in your shoes,

00:43:29.180 | I would sell the house, take the $50,000,

00:43:31.780 | use that to cover, to pay down some of the debts,

00:43:36.780 | and then I would get-- - No, no, no, no.

00:43:38.620 | I'm sorry, so if I sold that flip,

00:43:40.260 | and after I refinance one of my houses,

00:43:45.260 | and sell off one of them,

00:43:46.460 | this would be, all the debt would be paid off.

00:43:48.300 | That $50K would be net positive, no debt,

00:43:50.940 | as well as the Bitcoin, that positive 50 to 60K

00:43:54.840 | would be positive after paying off all of the 150K in debt.

00:43:59.260 | And that money leftover would be for a wedding,

00:44:02.220 | and for me to live off of,

00:44:03.140 | and try to figure out what the next steps are,

00:44:05.020 | as well as pay for all the legal fees

00:44:07.180 | for us getting residency in both directions.

00:44:09.100 | - Sure, then I think that's the move.

00:44:10.740 | I would keep the Bitcoin,

00:44:12.620 | and it's not because I'm making a bet

00:44:14.460 | on Bitcoin versus real estate, although, who knows?

00:44:17.940 | It's because I would rather have the money be in the IRA.

00:44:20.380 | Because if something happens,

00:44:22.060 | and you get behind on your credit cards,

00:44:23.780 | your IRA should be exempt from the claims of creditors,

00:44:26.660 | whereas the houses are subject to the claims of creditors.

00:44:29.580 | So if you know that these credit card companies,

00:44:32.500 | if I get behind with them, they're gonna sue me,

00:44:34.300 | and they're gonna take my houses anyway,

00:44:36.260 | but they can't get at the money in my IRA,

00:44:38.420 | depending on how that works,

00:44:40.220 | I don't know where they sue you,

00:44:41.340 | but the IRA laws are different from every state,

00:44:44.140 | I'm not gonna go into that.

00:44:44.980 | But just conceptually--

00:44:46.980 | - Would it make a difference if the houses

00:44:49.740 | weren't in single-member LLCs, each one individually?

00:44:53.020 | - No, because you own the LLCs.

00:44:54.980 | And then you're gonna ask me, well, wait a second,

00:44:56.780 | what if I move LLC membership units,

00:44:58.380 | and I'm not going down that road because it's immoral?

00:45:01.260 | Not because it couldn't be done,

00:45:02.740 | but because hiding money from creditors,

00:45:04.940 | when you have the ability to pay them, is an immoral action.

00:45:08.900 | If you have the ability to sell a house,

00:45:11.060 | and pay off the debt, then that's what you should do.

00:45:13.640 | So I'm gonna be defensive in my planning,

00:45:16.020 | and I'm not criticizing you, I'm just going,

00:45:18.020 | that's where most people's minds are going.

00:45:19.700 | Let me explain how I shoot through this.

00:45:22.180 | If you come to me, and you have $150,000 of debt,

00:45:26.940 | and you get diagnosed with cancer,

00:45:30.120 | and now you're fighting cancer for the next five years,

00:45:33.220 | then I'm gonna tell you, stop paying your credit cards,

00:45:36.340 | and focus on getting well, because I'm okay with that,

00:45:39.820 | because that's the legal contract

00:45:43.660 | between you and the credit card company,

00:45:45.740 | and you don't have the ability to work

00:45:47.760 | because you're fighting cancer.

00:45:49.460 | And so, I'm not opposed to getting behind on credit cards.

00:45:53.180 | I have many times given people advice, stop paying,

00:45:56.660 | but you stop paying when you can't afford it,

00:45:58.900 | when you don't have any money,

00:46:00.060 | and your children are going hungry

00:46:01.220 | because you're paying the credit cards.

00:46:02.780 | I'm not opposed to bankruptcy.

00:46:04.280 | Bankruptcy is for when you cannot pay your creditors,

00:46:07.940 | and I think it's morally permissible to declare bankruptcy

00:46:10.960 | in a situation that you can't get out of.

00:46:13.980 | However, what is not morally permissible

00:46:16.940 | is for you to have assets that could be sold,

00:46:20.700 | and not sell those assets

00:46:22.720 | to pay the claims of your creditors.

00:46:24.080 | That would be immoral,

00:46:25.100 | because it would be stealing from your creditors to do that.

00:46:27.740 | So, what I'm saying is, I'm willing to play defense,

00:46:31.580 | and say, keep the money in your IRA,

00:46:33.660 | because if things get bad, you're still protected there,

00:46:38.000 | but I think you're better off selling the houses,

00:46:40.340 | and you'll have a lower tax rate.

00:46:42.740 | You'll sell the houses, you'll pay off the debts,

00:46:45.320 | and then you'll be free of it,

00:46:46.660 | and you'll still have the protected money in the IRA.

00:46:49.540 | So, I'm trying to shoot the middle,

00:46:50.940 | and not be stupid, and just say,

00:46:52.260 | oh, let's not take any asset protection planning

00:46:55.060 | into account, but also not to give any hint

00:46:58.940 | that we're gonna play games

00:47:00.300 | with people that you owe money to.

00:47:02.000 | - Well, I fully have the intention of paying off my debt.

00:47:06.500 | Either one of these solutions would net me positive

00:47:09.940 | after paying off all my debt.

00:47:11.180 | So, that was never about,

00:47:13.060 | I was just wondering about the asset protection,

00:47:14.620 | but I see what you're saying

00:47:15.460 | about keeping it in the retirement account,

00:47:17.340 | because those are so, God forbid, in the future,

00:47:19.220 | if I ever were to have to declare bankruptcy,

00:47:22.020 | then that money would be protected

00:47:23.260 | from the claims of creditors, where they can go after.

00:47:25.540 | So, basically, you're kind of implying

00:47:26.740 | that the other houses,

00:47:27.660 | even though they're in single-member LLCs,

00:47:29.220 | that they could potentially pierce the corporate shield,

00:47:32.100 | and seize those assets, if I'm understanding it right.

00:47:34.460 | - I am not a practicing bankruptcy lawyer,

00:47:36.920 | so know that first and foremost.

00:47:39.580 | However, I've read a lot of books and articles

00:47:41.320 | from those who are.

00:47:42.260 | So, first and foremost, from an asset protection standpoint,

00:47:46.580 | single-member LLCs may not be useless,

00:47:49.920 | but they are certainly not ironclad.

00:47:52.740 | That's the first thing.

00:47:53.780 | So, one of the standard pieces of advice

00:47:56.660 | when you read their books is,

00:47:58.300 | you always need to make certain

00:47:59.780 | that all of your companies have multiple members,

00:48:02.740 | and they need to be multiple members

00:48:05.200 | who aren't seen as a unit.

00:48:07.220 | So, if you really have a high need for high asset protection,

00:48:11.220 | then it's not just gonna be you and your wife

00:48:13.060 | owning the LLC,

00:48:14.500 | but rather, it's gonna be you

00:48:15.960 | and some unrelated parties also,

00:48:19.120 | because there is a much higher level of respect

00:48:22.340 | for a multi-member LLC,

00:48:24.260 | where innocent parties can be hurt,

00:48:26.480 | versus a single-member LLC,

00:48:28.600 | which is just a shell that was put in place

00:48:30.380 | for the purposes of trying to keep money from creditors.

00:48:35.380 | The other aspect to it is just that,

00:48:38.880 | anytime you're sued, you and all of your entities

00:48:41.220 | are going to be sued.

00:48:42.560 | So, you're gonna be sued,

00:48:44.900 | and all of your LLCs are gonna be sued,

00:48:47.820 | and then you would have to demonstrate to the court

00:48:50.300 | why your LLCs are not you,

00:48:52.980 | and why the court should protect those assets.

00:48:55.460 | And that's just not how most real estate investors do it.

00:48:58.380 | So, I don't think that there is a significant,

00:49:01.260 | and again, I'm not a lawyer,

00:49:02.420 | but I don't think there's a significant

00:49:04.460 | asset protection benefit of your properties

00:49:06.920 | being in single-member LLCs, generally speaking.

00:49:10.220 | I think that maybe there's some opportunity for it,

00:49:15.100 | but maybe it does work as if, let's say,

00:49:18.240 | a tenant sues you, maybe.

00:49:20.120 | But in general, the way the US courts work

00:49:23.920 | is they want people to pay bills,

00:49:26.740 | and they want debtors to pay creditors.

00:49:29.380 | And so, if it ever feels like

00:49:33.020 | there's not a genuine, legitimate purpose for the planning

00:49:36.060 | beyond asset protection,

00:49:37.740 | it seems like the asset protection schemes

00:49:39.900 | pretty well fall apart most of the time.

00:49:42.060 | So, you gotta work really hard

00:49:43.580 | to create that genuine business purpose,

00:49:45.980 | and that's not generally what real estate investors do

00:49:48.460 | when they just set up a bunch of single-member LLCs.

00:49:50.640 | By the way, there are other reasons

00:49:52.140 | other than asset protection to have single-member LLCs.

00:49:54.860 | So, I'm not saying don't set up LLCs.

00:49:57.140 | What I'm saying is that I would not count on that myself.

00:50:03.620 | - No, I understand, and I'll be honest.

00:50:06.380 | You're spot on, and as a real estate investor,

00:50:07.860 | I'm not the best record keeper,

00:50:09.140 | and if, God forbid, there was a lawsuit or what have you,

00:50:13.260 | I would imagine they would probably pretty easily

00:50:15.700 | be able to pierce this corporate shield.

00:50:17.420 | So, I appreciate that advice.

00:50:19.180 | It makes a lot of sense.

00:50:20.020 | I've heard your other insights in the past

00:50:22.060 | about using retirement accounts

00:50:23.900 | and their protection from creditors.

00:50:26.260 | So, that is very insightful.

00:50:29.220 | - Can you get, last comment, back to the job.

00:50:31.660 | I would look for an online job, working online.

00:50:34.580 | The schedule of living in Europe

00:50:36.380 | and working online in the United States

00:50:37.900 | is a wonderful schedule.

00:50:39.580 | It would allow you to be physically present with your wife,

00:50:42.540 | and every dollar that you earn online,

00:50:45.800 | especially if there's some flexibility with it,

00:50:48.500 | is a bit of property that you don't have to sell.

00:50:52.320 | So, obviously, you have a plan here

00:50:54.500 | with selling the property that would work,

00:50:56.160 | give you the money to pay everything off,

00:50:58.020 | but I would just say that if you could have a job online,

00:51:00.860 | even if you're making $70,000 a year,

00:51:03.780 | over the next year, that's a huge number,

00:51:05.540 | and that may keep you from selling a property

00:51:07.260 | that you wouldn't otherwise want to sell.

00:51:09.020 | So, I won't beat that drum anymore,

00:51:11.300 | but to me, the obvious answer to the problem

00:51:14.980 | is sell what you have to sell to stay current,

00:51:17.700 | but just get a job and work the job

00:51:22.400 | so that you can manage your property part-time

00:51:25.820 | and put all of the income from the job

00:51:28.180 | to paying off the debt.

00:51:29.540 | And then, a year from now,

00:51:30.660 | you would still own potentially more assets

00:51:33.980 | while also fixing the problem.

00:51:35.900 | All right, good enough?

00:51:37.320 | - Yeah, yes, well, just one, I guess, real quick,

00:51:40.900 | follow-up question.

00:51:42.500 | So, if you would suggest getting a job,

00:51:44.420 | but would you recommend as well?

00:51:45.740 | Because it probably won't be a highly paid job

00:51:48.700 | versus like a reading and acquiring skills

00:51:51.460 | and new skills and talents, for example.

00:51:54.860 | Would you not go that route or recommend or advise that route?

00:51:58.340 | - If I were in your shoes, I would try to see

00:52:00.780 | if I could do relief work for pharmacists

00:52:03.020 | who want to go on vacation.

00:52:04.060 | I don't know anything about that,

00:52:05.540 | but that kind of work, I would guess,

00:52:07.340 | is probably out there.

00:52:08.380 | And there's a lot of pharmacists who are overworked,

00:52:10.900 | and if they could hire a qualified pharmacist

00:52:13.260 | to come in and run the pharmacy for a few weeks

00:52:15.020 | so they could get a break, that would be my first thing.

00:52:17.300 | That would take you away from your wife,

00:52:18.840 | but if it's a couple weeks out of a month,

00:52:21.860 | that's what I would do.

00:52:23.500 | But other than that, I would just say,

00:52:25.500 | look for anything online that you could,

00:52:28.220 | anything that you could get.

00:52:29.660 | I don't think it makes sense for you to work

00:52:30.980 | for $15,000 a year.

00:52:33.600 | That would be dumb.

00:52:34.700 | But you should be, with your training and your education,

00:52:38.980 | you should be qualified for a variety of things.

00:52:41.560 | So I would just work really hard to see what I could do

00:52:43.360 | or what I could get qualified for very quickly.

00:52:46.080 | So hopefully that starts, and congratulations

00:52:48.780 | on your marriage, and I hope that,

00:52:51.780 | call me back and let's celebrate

00:52:52.940 | when you get all that debt paid off.

00:52:54.460 | Samuel in Colorado, welcome to the show.

00:52:56.100 | How can I serve you today?

00:52:58.020 | (chair squeaking)

00:52:59.620 | - Hello.

00:53:00.660 | - Hello, Samuel, and Samuel's chair.

00:53:02.720 | You have a chair almost as squeaky as mine.

00:53:06.420 | - Oh no, I just don't hear it anymore

00:53:09.460 | 'cause I'm here all the time.

00:53:10.560 | - Well, I heard it very loudly.

00:53:12.020 | Go ahead, Samuel, it's okay.

00:53:13.700 | - Yeah, so I called two weeks ago,

00:53:17.140 | and you must not have heard my chair then,

00:53:18.520 | but I called on the topic of career and income planning.

00:53:21.460 | I'm 31 years old, and the topic of early retiring at 35,

00:53:26.460 | and you provided a response of possibly scale that back,

00:53:31.340 | 40, 45, and I think that's a great response.

00:53:34.860 | And I just wanted to kind of evolve that

00:53:38.300 | into a related topic.

00:53:40.540 | And so what we talked about, yeah,

00:53:43.620 | I'm in public accounting, I'm in auditing,

00:53:46.460 | and I'm a senior manager.

00:53:47.740 | So, and you mentioned like one thing you mentioned

00:53:52.740 | was you could reduce your income,

00:53:57.600 | like calculate what you would need

00:53:59.340 | if you just took your current net worth

00:54:02.140 | and figured out how long it would take

00:54:04.500 | under an interest rate assumption

00:54:06.760 | to get to what you need under the 4% rule,

00:54:09.840 | you could reduce your work.

00:54:12.340 | So my topic today is kind of sunk cost fallacy

00:54:16.740 | and how to think about that in terms of career and income,

00:54:19.540 | because thinking about it,

00:54:21.100 | I think sunk cost takes away some aspects,

00:54:25.060 | but it doesn't take away other aspects.

00:54:27.020 | And what I mean by that is,

00:54:31.180 | so yeah, I'm a CPA in Colorado and California.

00:54:33.900 | I've been in public accounting for almost 10 years

00:54:36.940 | and studied that in school.

00:54:38.100 | So in my mind, sunk cost would say

00:54:42.120 | what you've done in the past

00:54:44.420 | shouldn't impact your choice in the future,

00:54:47.940 | but how it would impact it is,

00:54:49.940 | if I were to be teleported to where I am right now,

00:54:53.460 | all the experience I have, all the certifications I have,

00:54:57.300 | I take those with me.

00:54:58.620 | So that would impact the decision,

00:55:00.900 | but I shouldn't say because I've been in this career

00:55:03.900 | for nine years, I need to stick with it.

00:55:06.140 | So then to kind of narrow it down to the specific question,

00:55:10.180 | I mentioned that public accounting has some downsides

00:55:13.780 | relating to more hours and more commitment,

00:55:17.740 | but at the same time,

00:55:18.860 | it may be the easiest way to get the highest rate of income

00:55:23.220 | for the foreseeable future,

00:55:26.540 | since I have experience in it,

00:55:28.220 | compared to your example of,

00:55:29.820 | just random example of a flight attendant.

00:55:32.140 | So I could definitely live for a long time

00:55:34.500 | with making less income,

00:55:36.200 | but how do you balance the sunk cost thing,

00:55:40.100 | the career path you've gone down

00:55:42.440 | versus just totally, potentially throwing that away

00:55:45.900 | and going down something

00:55:46.900 | for the purpose of work-life balance?

00:55:48.740 | - Let me try to answer it with a question first.

00:55:54.500 | So as I mentioned on our previous Friday Q&A show,

00:55:58.500 | there are a couple of exercises

00:56:00.220 | that I have found to be really effective

00:56:02.420 | in answering these questions with private consulting.

00:56:05.060 | The first exercise is the one that I described to you.

00:56:08.780 | And that exercise specifically is for me

00:56:12.280 | to take your net worth,

00:56:14.640 | as you've already repeated back to me,

00:56:17.280 | take your net worth,

00:56:18.240 | figure out what net worth you need to live on,

00:56:21.880 | and then just assume that you stopped saving money

00:56:24.060 | and then project it forward to the future

00:56:29.060 | to figure out when you could afford to retire

00:56:32.120 | based upon how much you've saved.

00:56:33.600 | And then just say, "Hey, you just gotta live a job.

00:56:35.640 | "You gotta work something now over the next decade

00:56:38.240 | "or whatever it takes, two decades, doesn't matter.

00:56:40.720 | "And you can't save any money,

00:56:42.780 | "but you can't spend any of your assets."

00:56:46.800 | And so that's what I mentioned to you last time.

00:56:48.880 | And I usually will do the calculations,

00:56:50.400 | but of course, you can do that yourself.

00:56:53.040 | Now, in working on this,

00:56:54.600 | I also eventually wrote two other questions

00:56:57.440 | that I find I frequently use.

00:57:00.160 | And let me articulate these questions to you

00:57:02.400 | because I believe they'll be helpful

00:57:04.160 | and they're kind of games.

00:57:05.840 | And I'm gonna do the first one a little faster

00:57:08.640 | 'cause what I wanna get to is the second one,

00:57:10.000 | but in my experience, they work better.

00:57:11.960 | So play this with me and I want you to play a game, okay?

00:57:16.520 | Game number one.

00:57:19.360 | I want you to pretend

00:57:22.080 | that you have just received a phone call.

00:57:25.240 | And the guy on the other end of the line says,

00:57:31.200 | "Listen, Samuel, I've got some sad news for you.

00:57:34.280 | "Your long-lost great-aunt Mildred has just passed away."

00:57:39.280 | And of course, you feel sad

00:57:42.000 | because you have very pleasant memories

00:57:44.160 | of long-lost great-aunt Mildred.

00:57:46.800 | You're not too sad because she was a very old woman

00:57:49.240 | and you haven't seen her in 35 years,

00:57:52.040 | or excuse me, you're 31.

00:57:52.920 | You haven't seen her in 25 years

00:57:54.880 | because she's been gone for a long time.

00:57:57.760 | But of course, you're sad to hear

00:57:58.800 | that great-aunt Mildred has passed away.

00:58:01.320 | He continues and he says, "But there's some good news.

00:58:03.840 | "And the good news is this,

00:58:05.760 | "that great-aunt Mildred has left you, Samuel,

00:58:09.720 | "as the sole beneficiary of her estate."

00:58:14.080 | And great-aunt Mildred was very wealthy.

00:58:17.880 | The reason you haven't seen great-aunt Mildred

00:58:21.360 | in 25 years, however,

00:58:23.560 | is simply that she fell in love

00:58:29.080 | with a Norwegian prince

00:58:33.040 | and they eloped to Switzerland

00:58:34.840 | where they have lived for the last 25 years.

00:58:38.400 | And so years ago, great-aunt Mildred

00:58:40.400 | renounced her American citizenship

00:58:42.640 | and she decided that she hated the United States.

00:58:45.600 | So she inherited all of her husband's wealth

00:58:48.800 | from his family wealth

00:58:50.520 | and they put all of the money into a tax haven.

00:58:53.680 | It's in an offshore trust in the Cook Islands.

00:58:56.520 | And the attorney explains to you

00:58:57.680 | that since you're an American,

00:58:58.800 | he can't actually give you the money

00:59:00.480 | and you can't be a trustee on the trust.

00:59:02.840 | But tomorrow morning in the mail,

00:59:06.080 | you're gonna receive a FedEx envelope.

00:59:08.560 | And that FedEx envelope

00:59:09.760 | has a black American Express card in it.

00:59:12.720 | And what you can do is you can swipe that card

00:59:14.880 | for anything that you want, anywhere in the world.

00:59:18.120 | And at the end of every single month

00:59:20.200 | for the rest of your life,

00:59:21.680 | that card will be paid off.

00:59:24.800 | Now, ignore the technicalities.

00:59:26.160 | I'm just focusing on the, you know,

00:59:28.040 | ignore the taxes and all that stuff

00:59:29.760 | 'cause I have to say this to you, the accountant.

00:59:33.120 | Question is this,

00:59:34.720 | tomorrow morning when you receive that FedEx envelope

00:59:37.240 | with a black American Express card in it,

00:59:39.320 | what will you do and how will you live?

00:59:44.240 | - I would quit my job and start going back to church,

00:59:53.040 | build a bunch of relationships,

00:59:54.320 | do a lot of skiing and rock climbing, never work again.

00:59:57.960 | - Okay.

01:00:01.440 | What else?

01:00:02.280 | - Hmm, never thought beyond that.

01:00:07.880 | Like along what lines?

01:00:09.560 | - Anything you want.

01:00:11.560 | - Just financial?

01:00:14.840 | I mean, I don't have big financial goals.

01:00:16.520 | - Let's say that you do that.

01:00:17.360 | Let's say you do that for the next three years straight.

01:00:19.480 | You're skiing every winter,

01:00:20.640 | rock climbing all summer, three years straight.

01:00:23.360 | What would you do after three years?

01:00:25.160 | - I think more of the same.

01:00:31.160 | I mean, it's a lifelong pursuit, right?

01:00:33.520 | Like there's people who rock climb

01:00:35.640 | like Alex Honnold and Tommy Caldwell.

01:00:37.520 | I'm so far from achieving that.

01:00:39.300 | You know, it's a lifetime away at the rate I'm doing it.

01:00:43.880 | You know, skiing, jumping a hundred foot cliffs,

01:00:46.440 | like it would take a lifetime

01:00:48.480 | to build that level of proficiency.

01:00:50.320 | - Okay, great.

01:00:52.040 | All right, so I'm gonna pause there.

01:00:53.280 | Later, go back and think about that question.

01:00:55.920 | Replay the little game that I said

01:00:58.160 | and just really think about that.

01:00:59.600 | And what I want you to do is I want you

01:01:01.040 | to think about it in two phases.

01:01:03.240 | So it sounds to me like your consumption,

01:01:05.760 | you're pretty clear, you know, your goals are simple.

01:01:08.220 | I want to ski and rock climb.

01:01:09.360 | That's what I want to do.

01:01:11.020 | For anyone else who's listening and doing the exercise,

01:01:13.560 | some people have a long list of things

01:01:15.240 | they would buy immediately

01:01:16.640 | and a whole bunch of stuff that they would do for a year.

01:01:19.240 | Okay, fine, write all that stuff down,

01:01:21.480 | but then fast forward five years

01:01:23.000 | and assume that you've just done nothing

01:01:24.620 | but this thing for the last five years.

01:01:27.020 | What would you do then?

01:01:28.440 | Because what I think most people find

01:01:31.040 | is that once they get out of their system the recreation,

01:01:36.040 | then they're looking for something

01:01:37.680 | that is more constructive

01:01:39.120 | than pure self-indulgent recreation.

01:01:42.360 | When I was in high school and college,

01:01:44.440 | I taught wakeboarding and water skiing.

01:01:47.160 | And that job plus a different job cured me forever

01:01:50.320 | of thinking that doing something fun all day every day

01:01:53.480 | is where it's at.

01:01:55.280 | Because what happens is you enjoy your recreation the most

01:01:59.740 | when it's a respite or an interruption

01:02:01.760 | from something else that you're doing.

01:02:03.520 | But when all you do all day every day is recreate,

01:02:08.120 | then it may lose some of its attraction.

01:02:10.200 | Now, maybe not, I don't know.

01:02:12.280 | I've never been a rock climber maybe,

01:02:13.820 | and there's probably lots of guys out there who would say,

01:02:15.480 | "Nope, I'm ready to do this for 20 years."

01:02:17.400 | So think carefully about the question.

01:02:18.760 | But let's go on to game number two, all right?

01:02:21.720 | Here's game two.

01:02:22.620 | - I see your point, sorry.

01:02:24.360 | I would definitely pursue something that I could do

01:02:26.640 | because I wanted to, not because I had to.

01:02:28.720 | - Right, so that's what I want you to think about.

01:02:30.600 | I want you to assume however long you need.

01:02:32.160 | If it's one year or five years,

01:02:33.800 | you're living in a fancy RV, rock climbing,

01:02:36.280 | skiing nonstop, but then fast forward.

01:02:38.480 | Imagine yourself at 40.

01:02:40.240 | You know, what would you wanna do at 40?

01:02:42.000 | Recognizing that you've got this black Amex card still.

01:02:45.000 | You can do anything you want.

01:02:46.040 | We'll come back to that in a moment.

01:02:47.160 | All right, let's play game number two.

01:02:49.000 | I want you to pretend

01:02:51.720 | that you've just received a phone call.

01:02:54.740 | And this time, the guy on the other end of the line

01:02:58.860 | is a guy that you know.

01:03:00.820 | Now, for whatever reason, even though you're a CPA

01:03:02.820 | and a public accountant and an auditor,

01:03:05.620 | for whatever reason, this is your accountant on the line.

01:03:07.700 | I always use accountant 'cause it works for my game.

01:03:10.160 | So you just gotta play along with me here,

01:03:11.540 | even though you're an accountant.

01:03:13.360 | So this is your accountant, John, on the line.

01:03:15.940 | And John has filed your taxes for you

01:03:18.540 | for the last 20 years of your life,

01:03:20.620 | since you earned your first paycheck at 11 years old.

01:03:23.180 | And John says to you, "Listen, Samuel,

01:03:25.020 | "I don't know how to say this,

01:03:26.540 | "but I am standing at my office window,

01:03:29.880 | "and I'm looking down in the parking lot,

01:03:31.620 | "and there's a bunch of scary-looking guys with guns

01:03:33.680 | "getting out of dark SUVs, putting on blue windbreakers

01:03:36.920 | "with three letters on the back.

01:03:38.900 | "And I know for a fact that they are here for me.

01:03:43.100 | "And the reason they're here for me, Samuel,

01:03:45.040 | "is that I, because I've been doing your taxes

01:03:48.860 | "for the last 20 years,

01:03:49.960 | "I have been filing false tax returns in your name

01:03:53.280 | "with the IRS for the last 20 years.

01:03:56.060 | "And I have been embezzling money from the IRS."

01:03:59.180 | And of course, Samuel, you yourself

01:04:00.580 | are entirely morally innocent in this sordid affair.

01:04:03.860 | You had no idea what I was doing.

01:04:05.380 | I concealed it from you.

01:04:07.360 | But what you don't know, Samuel,

01:04:09.160 | is that there is a very little-known law.

01:04:12.840 | It is in the Internal Revenue Code,

01:04:14.540 | section 674, subsection G,

01:04:18.140 | subsection 1, subsection A7,

01:04:21.860 | that says that if somebody embezzles money

01:04:24.000 | from the IRS in your name,

01:04:25.300 | whether or not you know anything about it,

01:04:27.100 | you are guilty of it, and you have to pay back

01:04:29.300 | the full amount of money that has been embezzled.

01:04:31.460 | And so, Samuel, by the end of today,

01:04:33.900 | since you were a client of mine,

01:04:35.400 | again, even though you're morally innocent,

01:04:37.500 | this rule exists, and by the end of today,

01:04:40.100 | all of your assets are going to be seized by the IRS.

01:04:44.580 | All of your bank accounts are going to be seized.

01:04:46.940 | All of your retirement accounts are going to be seized.

01:04:49.780 | And what's more, you can still live in the house

01:04:52.300 | that you're living in, that's not seized today,

01:04:54.720 | but what's more is that for the rest of your life,

01:04:57.900 | all of your wages are going to be garnished

01:05:01.760 | at the end of every month.

01:05:04.460 | At the end of every single month of your life,

01:05:07.620 | for the rest of your life,

01:05:09.660 | any money that's left over in your bank account

01:05:11.780 | is going to be taken by the IRS.

01:05:14.740 | Even your Social Security is seized.

01:05:17.520 | So what that means, Samuel, is you will have to work

01:05:23.500 | for the rest of your life.

01:05:25.540 | You will never be able to accumulate money

01:05:27.860 | because you owe the IRS a bajillion dollars.

01:05:30.300 | You can still work, you can still earn money,

01:05:34.660 | but you will never be able to accumulate wealth

01:05:36.860 | because at the end of every month, the IRS will take it.

01:05:41.980 | So if that happened, what would you do

01:05:46.500 | and how would you live?

01:05:47.620 | - Well, eventually I would transition,

01:05:53.020 | similar to the last example, to a job.

01:05:55.300 | Yeah, it was better for lifestyle.

01:05:59.020 | And I mean, see, that's what I have to,

01:06:05.060 | you frequently say, when people come to you and say,

01:06:09.140 | like, I need a job, it's like, you can't help with that.

01:06:11.500 | You need to know your goals and know what you wanna do.

01:06:14.500 | So the easy thing to think about is,

01:06:16.940 | something in my current industry,

01:06:19.420 | either work in the industry,

01:06:21.300 | do like some of the seasonal jobs you've discussed,

01:06:24.620 | or work for the government is a compelling one

01:06:27.660 | 'cause it seems chill.

01:06:29.420 | But there's the alternative position of saying,

01:06:33.720 | I'll do something really chill, like flight attendant

01:06:36.940 | or something really seasonal, work at 7-Eleven,

01:06:41.020 | be a farmer for part of the year.

01:06:43.180 | So I'd have to really think through that.

01:06:45.020 | And that's part of why my question is difficult,

01:06:47.780 | because I don't know what that alternative answer would be,

01:06:49.860 | but I know it would be different than what I'm doing now.

01:06:52.420 | - Right, and that's what I want you to think about.

01:06:56.740 | This is my way of answering your question

01:06:58.620 | about how do I think about the sunk cost fallacy.

01:07:01.220 | The reason I wrote those two games the way that I did

01:07:04.060 | is that I generally work with people like you,

01:07:07.220 | who are good accumulators of wealth.

01:07:09.380 | And what I've discovered is that there are two ditches

01:07:12.140 | that prodigious accumulators of wealth go into.

01:07:14.980 | Ditch number one is they think nonstop

01:07:18.660 | about what they can buy and what they can do,

01:07:22.460 | and that's what they're going for.

01:07:25.420 | And so I try to give full, that credit card,

01:07:29.820 | the idea is, okay, listen,

01:07:30.820 | you can buy everything that you want.

01:07:32.400 | I've covered it all.

01:07:33.240 | Let's write all that lifestyle down.

01:07:34.580 | Now, you've bought everything that you want.

01:07:37.820 | Now what?

01:07:39.660 | All right, what's the point?

01:07:41.120 | And I'll give you as much leash to run on as you want.

01:07:45.320 | Buy everything, make the whole list,

01:07:46.740 | make the giant purchasing list.

01:07:48.660 | But when we do that, what we realize,

01:07:50.380 | most people, not everyone,

01:07:52.120 | is that purchasing list is not actually all that long.

01:07:55.740 | Like, okay, I wanna buy a new car,

01:07:57.060 | but most people don't want 33 cars.

01:07:59.100 | They just want a new car, you know?

01:08:00.860 | And so let's make the list of all the stuff

01:08:02.660 | that you would do, and then let's say,

01:08:03.580 | okay, what would you do if now working has no point,

01:08:08.020 | because you're not working to buy more stuff.

01:08:10.300 | You can buy everything.

01:08:12.260 | And so let's try to figure that out.

01:08:13.580 | The second question I wrote was to try to get at people

01:08:16.960 | who save too much money,

01:08:18.680 | because there's a lot of people that save money.

01:08:20.500 | And what they do is they view it as,

01:08:22.540 | well, I'm gonna invest,

01:08:23.580 | sorry, back, real quick,

01:08:25.060 | following the second question.

01:08:25.900 | The first question also is that what people do

01:08:28.340 | who are prodigious accumulators of wealth

01:08:30.300 | is they're always focused on the next investment.

01:08:33.020 | And, you know, okay, I've got seven houses,

01:08:34.800 | but I'm gonna get 11.

01:08:35.660 | My goal is to get 11.

01:08:36.620 | Well, why?

01:08:37.840 | Well, I don't know, but it just sounds good.

01:08:40.220 | It sounds better to have 10 houses than it does to have seven.

01:08:42.340 | Just, you know, I want $5 million in net worth

01:08:44.380 | instead of 3 million.

01:08:45.220 | Why?

01:08:46.180 | And so they get fixated on accumulating money, money, money,

01:08:49.980 | thinking that they actually wanna spend it,

01:08:51.440 | but in reality, it's just an addiction

01:08:53.840 | to making more investments.

01:08:55.620 | All right, but now to the second one.

01:08:57.300 | The second one is to say, all right, you're saving money,

01:09:00.580 | but you're so fixated on this idea that I don't wanna work.

01:09:05.660 | And this is what I mentioned to you a couple of weeks ago

01:09:08.000 | is that, you know, I just don't wanna work.

01:09:09.520 | I wanna be 35 years old and I don't wanna work.

01:09:11.200 | Okay, fine.

01:09:12.160 | Okay, great.

01:09:13.520 | But now let's take that away and say you can't,

01:09:15.880 | so you're focused, laser focused on early retirement.

01:09:18.080 | Accumulate, accumulate, accumulate.

01:09:19.520 | Nothing wrong with accumulating,

01:09:21.480 | but let's figure out what you would do

01:09:22.780 | if you couldn't accumulate.

01:09:24.140 | And let's imagine life in that situation.

01:09:27.040 | So if you genuinely play those games,

01:09:29.040 | you'll come up with something that's different.

01:09:30.600 | Now, everyone is gonna have something different.

01:09:32.780 | One guy in your situation,

01:09:35.100 | it would be pretty obvious to him

01:09:36.920 | that if he gets a job as a ski instructor in the wintertime

01:09:40.760 | and a climbing instructor and guide in the summertime,

01:09:43.800 | then he would be pretty well living his dream lifestyle.

01:09:47.160 | And that'd be pretty obvious to that guy.

01:09:50.080 | Now, for me, like what would I do?

01:09:52.680 | - You say you'll never join the Navy,

01:09:54.980 | never live on a submarine or power a ship

01:09:57.800 | with nuclear energy.

01:09:59.480 | Joining the Navy sounds crazy, saying never actually is.

01:10:03.180 | Learn why at Navy.com.

01:10:05.260 | America's Navy, forged by the sea.

01:10:08.060 | - I know in an instant,

01:10:09.220 | I would go and get a PhD and be a college professor,

01:10:11.720 | 'cause to me, that is the perfect dream job.

01:10:14.740 | It has the perfect encapsulation of intellectual stimulation,

01:10:19.060 | enough money to live comfortably on,

01:10:21.300 | good control over schedule,

01:10:23.180 | and I would love the social

01:10:24.820 | and intellectual environment of that.

01:10:26.860 | But everyone has a different thing.

01:10:28.780 | And so I want you to take away the idea

01:10:30.460 | that you can just somehow escape if you save enough money

01:10:33.320 | and figure out what you would do if you escaped too,

01:10:35.520 | and consider that pretty deeply.

01:10:37.980 | So then now back to the sunk cost fallacy.

01:10:40.260 | The sunk cost fallacy is basic,

01:10:45.280 | I think is something that you need to recognize

01:10:47.520 | and then acknowledge, I'm 31 years old,

01:10:50.460 | and I have tons of options before me.

01:10:54.060 | And the idea that at 31, you would say,

01:10:56.980 | well, I can't go and retrain for something else

01:10:59.940 | or go in a different direction

01:11:01.100 | 'cause I have these degrees and designations

01:11:02.940 | and experience to me is crazy.

01:11:05.100 | If you knew that you would want to go

01:11:06.780 | and be involved in this, whatever this is,

01:11:10.120 | then go and just pursue it.

01:11:12.100 | Now, there is an element of intelligence,

01:11:14.320 | maybe you're two years away from having your house paid off,

01:11:17.060 | and that would provide you with a really wonderful thing,

01:11:19.540 | and you need to do two years of training anyway

01:11:21.420 | to move to this new career.

01:11:22.580 | Well, obviously be smart about it,

01:11:24.540 | but it's just mostly a matter of saying

01:11:26.500 | the past doesn't exist, it really doesn't,

01:11:28.980 | it's dead and gone, and the most intelligent thing

01:11:32.260 | for any man to be doing at any stage of his life

01:11:34.700 | is to be going as vigorously as possible

01:11:37.420 | in the direction that he thinks he wants to go.

01:11:39.980 | And related, one more kind of comment,

01:11:43.100 | the caller before you talked about

01:11:45.180 | my comment on getting married.

01:11:46.820 | One thing I have learned also is this,

01:11:49.580 | and I try to bring this into,

01:11:50.780 | basically I think it applies to every area of life.

01:11:53.980 | If you think you wanna go in a different direction,

01:11:56.380 | I may have said this two weeks ago,

01:11:57.700 | but forgive me if I'm repeating.

01:11:59.380 | If you think you wanna go in a different direction,

01:12:02.540 | the best move is go in that direction as hard and fast today

01:12:07.540 | as you possibly could.

01:12:10.980 | I've thought and thought and thought about this situation,

01:12:13.260 | and I can't come up with any real scenario

01:12:16.700 | in which it makes sense to wait

01:12:18.940 | when you know a direction that you might wanna go in.

01:12:21.580 | And so, again, I think I'm repeating,

01:12:24.340 | but let me just do it even so.

01:12:26.500 | If you're gonna move across the country and you say,

01:12:28.460 | I don't wanna live in Colorado anymore,

01:12:30.340 | I wanna move to Maine.

01:12:31.780 | Well, you should move to Maine today,

01:12:34.580 | as close to today as you can.

01:12:36.780 | Because if you get to Maine

01:12:38.700 | and you discover that you hate it,

01:12:40.780 | then now you can instantly move back to Colorado

01:12:43.460 | six months from now,

01:12:44.500 | and now the whole idea

01:12:45.740 | that I might wanna go to Maine is gone.

01:12:47.820 | And now I'm just totally happy and content in Colorado.

01:12:51.020 | On the other hand, if you get to Maine and you love it,

01:12:53.380 | and it's obvious that that was the right move for you,

01:12:55.860 | then you're perfectly in great shape.

01:12:57.740 | And now you get to spend years and years more in Maine

01:13:00.620 | than you otherwise would do.

01:13:02.260 | So bringing it to careers.

01:13:03.860 | If you knew that what you would really love to do

01:13:05.980 | would be to go and work as a journalist

01:13:09.140 | for a rock climbing magazine,

01:13:11.340 | then what you should do is as close to today as possible,

01:13:14.920 | go and get that job.

01:13:16.820 | And then if you love it,

01:13:18.780 | you'll be thrilled that you did it

01:13:20.180 | because now you get to spend more years

01:13:22.420 | doing the thing that you love.

01:13:23.920 | If you hate it, you'll be so glad that you did it now.

01:13:27.380 | So you can turn around and go back on bended knee

01:13:29.620 | to your boss and say,

01:13:30.460 | "Hey boss, can I have my really cool auditing job back

01:13:33.140 | where I make all this money and it's really great?"

01:13:34.940 | And they'll give you the job back.

01:13:36.260 | And now you're not sitting on,

01:13:37.860 | wondering if the grass is actually green

01:13:39.460 | or on the other side or not.

01:13:40.860 | So the key is developing the vision

01:13:43.620 | of where you might wanna go

01:13:44.780 | and then pursuing it aggressively.

01:13:46.580 | And at 31, I think it makes the most sense for you

01:13:49.760 | to try to move in the direction of that thing

01:13:53.180 | that you would do based upon those scenarios

01:13:55.900 | that I described.

01:13:57.100 | And it may take you a while to discover it or to create it.

01:14:00.300 | And in the meantime, you should be living cheap,

01:14:02.820 | earning as much as you can, saving as much as you can,

01:14:05.120 | still working towards financial independence.

01:14:07.980 | But if you discover that thing that you want to do,

01:14:10.700 | then go towards it as quickly as possible

01:14:12.660 | because you can always go back to auditing.

01:14:14.820 | - Yeah, thank you so much.

01:14:17.980 | That's exactly it.

01:14:19.820 | And it's just because I don't know what that thing is.

01:14:23.540 | So if I knew what it was, I would definitely do that.

01:14:27.980 | For example, some of my roommates do engineering

01:14:30.940 | and I often look at that and say, "Oh, it's so casual.

01:14:33.620 | They never work weekends.

01:14:35.120 | They always get off work on time."

01:14:38.540 | But that's where sunk cost comes in.

01:14:40.220 | I don't wanna take five or six more years of schooling

01:14:43.240 | because I don't think it's truly

01:14:44.820 | that I wanna do engineering.

01:14:46.700 | It's just that you can always see

01:14:47.860 | your grass is greener on the other side.

01:14:49.860 | On one of your other podcasts,

01:14:52.460 | you interviewed someone who was talking

01:14:54.700 | about all these businesses.

01:14:55.860 | One of them was an ATM machine.

01:14:58.300 | And then just last night, I looked at it,

01:14:59.140 | and I'm like, "I never thought

01:15:00.260 | of starting an ATM machine business."

01:15:02.420 | And the more I looked into it, it has a lot of cons.

01:15:05.700 | It's almost as much work as real estate.

01:15:07.940 | So I'm just really skimming the surface

01:15:10.020 | and looking at what that thing would be.

01:15:11.820 | I think that's the biggest challenge.

01:15:13.420 | - Yeah, look at franchises

01:15:16.940 | because you have the money to buy a franchise.

01:15:19.780 | And a franchise, well-managed,

01:15:21.820 | may give you the kind of freedom

01:15:23.620 | and flexibility you're looking for.

01:15:25.980 | And it can provide for you with the income that you need

01:15:29.420 | that's a much higher return on investment

01:15:31.220 | that you can make with most other things.

01:15:33.100 | It will require your attention,

01:15:35.460 | but you're probably well-suited to developing those skills

01:15:39.660 | in a fairly short period of time.

01:15:41.760 | And you can use technology

01:15:43.840 | to provide you with a lot of benefit

01:15:47.260 | to a lot of what you're looking for.

01:15:50.300 | So if you had some kind of franchise in Denver

01:15:53.380 | and you're up in the mountains and you've got your cameras

01:15:57.300 | and you've got your texting service with your employees

01:15:59.780 | and everything's good,

01:16:00.860 | you can always get back down to Denver

01:16:02.420 | in four or five hours or whatever it takes when you need to.

01:16:06.140 | But in the meantime, you could have a business

01:16:08.900 | that's providing you with the kind of income

01:16:10.460 | that you might need.

01:16:11.280 | So consider that because a lot of times

01:16:13.900 | some people have pretty clear dreams and ambitions

01:16:16.820 | of I really wanna do this other kind of work,

01:16:19.540 | but you may not have that.

01:16:21.300 | So just think strategically and say,

01:16:23.020 | what kind of business would provide me with it?

01:16:25.660 | All right, love the question.

01:16:26.500 | Feel free to continue calling in.

01:16:27.700 | I've got three other calls on the line.

01:16:29.020 | Let's go a little faster.

01:16:30.020 | George in Florida, welcome to the show.

01:16:31.420 | How can I serve you today?

01:16:32.720 | - Hey, Josh, good afternoon.

01:16:36.180 | Well, I'm sure you're getting tired

01:16:38.740 | at this point of hearing this,

01:16:40.260 | but I just wanna say thank you for everything you do.

01:16:43.820 | And I really appreciate all the work you do

01:16:46.340 | and the way you analyze things.

01:16:49.180 | And your work is so unique

01:16:51.460 | and is what separates from other financial

01:16:54.620 | experts out on the field.

01:16:59.300 | So I just really wanted to say,

01:17:01.980 | I appreciate everything you do

01:17:03.380 | and thank you for what you do.

01:17:04.860 | And I hope you continue to do it

01:17:06.380 | as long as you enjoy, of course.

01:17:09.020 | - I thank you for saying thank you and don't,

01:17:11.020 | no, I don't get tired of it

01:17:12.220 | because I get tired sometimes of doing the work

01:17:15.020 | and it's knowing that I may be useful to people.

01:17:17.700 | I look around and all I see is how everyone else

01:17:19.580 | is better at everything than me

01:17:21.180 | and I get discouraged plenty of times.

01:17:22.940 | And so people saying nice things

01:17:24.480 | and giving genuine insight into some way

01:17:27.320 | that I've served them is definitely fuel

01:17:29.700 | for my emotional gas tank.

01:17:30.980 | So thank you, I appreciate it.

01:17:32.220 | And I appreciate it.

01:17:34.380 | How can I serve you today, sir?

01:17:36.700 | - Appreciate it.

01:17:37.740 | So I thought I had, well, maybe I still do,

01:17:41.060 | but it seems to be like a car purchasing question,

01:17:46.060 | but the more I think about it is it becomes more of like,

01:17:49.860 | how do I manage my goals?

01:17:52.540 | To give you the context, I'm 34 years old,

01:17:56.340 | I'm currently engaged and we are already saved the money.

01:18:01.340 | My fiance and I already saved the money for the wedding

01:18:03.620 | and we're of course working towards our future,

01:18:08.460 | currently saving money to buy our next home

01:18:11.900 | and probably continue, we'll do so

01:18:14.820 | for maybe two or three more homes.

01:18:18.020 | And one of the things, our cars are paid off

01:18:22.060 | and I'm trying to look and plan ahead.

01:18:27.060 | And I'm estimating that we might need our next car

01:18:31.740 | in about six years from now.

01:18:34.180 | And that gets me thinking, okay,

01:18:37.100 | we're currently saving about $2,000 every month,

01:18:40.380 | which we are putting on a high yield savings account.

01:18:43.220 | And that's basically what's gonna fund our next goal,

01:18:47.540 | which would be primarily our primary goal

01:18:50.500 | is getting to our next property.

01:18:52.300 | So we're saving money towards that.

01:18:58.420 | But then I am thinking, since I know that in about six years

01:19:03.420 | I'm gonna be needing to buy a car,

01:19:07.460 | and if I know, I don't know, or I estimate

01:19:10.100 | I'm gonna be spending about like 25, $30,000,

01:19:13.580 | whatever the cost that might be,

01:19:16.180 | would it be wise to start working towards that goal now?

01:19:21.180 | For example, putting aside,

01:19:25.460 | because the cars are paid off,

01:19:26.900 | so basically set aside like 200, $300 every month,

01:19:31.020 | perhaps putting it on an investment account

01:19:32.820 | so that it gains interest over the course of six years.

01:19:36.140 | And when the time comes, being able to pay the car in cash

01:19:41.140 | without taking away from the bigger savings

01:19:46.860 | that we're using for our primary goal,

01:19:48.540 | which is getting on our next property.

01:19:51.020 | So that's basically my question,

01:19:53.340 | 'cause I'm in a point to where I,

01:19:55.380 | should I just save the full 2000 and get to the house first?

01:20:00.380 | And then once we're in the house,

01:20:03.020 | kind of like save for the cars,

01:20:05.100 | but at the same time I wanna move on to the next property,

01:20:08.340 | so I don't wanna delay that as well.

01:20:10.940 | So that's what I'm trying to figure out.

01:20:15.940 | And because of course, you don't wanna put any money

01:20:21.780 | that you're gonna use in the relatively short term, right?

01:20:25.980 | In something risky, like I don't wanna,

01:20:28.340 | I'm putting it, the safest bet

01:20:31.860 | is to put in a high-yield savings for buying a house,

01:20:35.580 | because of course you're gonna be using that cash.

01:20:37.700 | So you don't want the market to just erase all that.

01:20:41.300 | - I understand the question.

01:20:42.420 | Let me give you two viewpoints to choose between.

01:20:46.460 | The short answer is gonna be anything you do is fine.

01:20:49.220 | So you know that any plan that you do is fine.

01:20:51.860 | So what I'm gonna try to do is I'm gonna give you plans

01:20:53.820 | that ideas that I think are really compelling,

01:20:56.740 | and then maybe this will resonate with you.

01:20:59.460 | And I'm stealing my own thunder from even the series

01:21:02.500 | that I'm doing right now on intelligent goals,

01:21:04.260 | because this one will be coming up later,

01:21:05.540 | or the number two one I'm gonna tell you.

01:21:06.840 | So first and foremost, for a guy like you

01:21:09.860 | who is earning income, sounds like you've got income,

01:21:13.860 | your wife's got income, you guys have lower expenses,

01:21:16.220 | you're accumulating properties, you're buying a house,

01:21:18.080 | you're working, you're on a plan.

01:21:19.940 | Buying a car is basically a meaningless thing.

01:21:23.740 | And I'm not saying that,

01:21:25.700 | what I'm saying is you can buy a car anytime.

01:21:27.940 | You have a car, the car works fine.

01:21:29.900 | Cars last basically for most people in the United States

01:21:33.520 | who drive on these pretty little roads

01:21:35.220 | that never tear your car to bits, your cars last forever.

01:21:38.700 | Not literally forever, but your cars right now

01:21:41.060 | could probably last you for 20 years with no problem.

01:21:43.740 | There's been so many advances in car design

01:21:46.700 | that cars last forever.

01:21:49.540 | On any day in the United States, when you need another car,

01:21:53.660 | you can walk out and get yourself

01:21:55.700 | a perfectly reasonable car for 5,000 bucks

01:21:58.820 | that will drive you down the road

01:22:00.300 | and be safe and reliable and no problem at all.

01:22:02.820 | Cars in the United States, good used cars,

01:22:05.640 | are so easy to come by that it's just laughable.

01:22:08.940 | Now, in the $25,000 range,

01:22:10.980 | you can find those cars all the time,

01:22:12.860 | and there's no problem whatsoever.

01:22:14.940 | And the whole point of cars is kind of silly,

01:22:18.420 | meaning what I mean is that, okay, yes, we need them

01:22:20.580 | 'cause the whole culture is built around them,

01:22:22.820 | but there's so many options that planning too far ahead

01:22:25.660 | for a car really is not a big deal.

01:22:28.500 | If you need to save $2,000 a month in 12 months of savings,

01:22:32.820 | you can cover your, you can buy your $24,000 car.

01:22:37.820 | So I'm not too worried about the car.

01:22:41.020 | If my car breaks and I wanna sell it,

01:22:43.180 | you'll sell your current car for something

01:22:44.780 | and you'll go and get some money together

01:22:46.300 | and go buy another one.

01:22:47.820 | So I would say, number one, just ignore the whole question.

01:22:50.740 | Don't even bother to have a goal for a car.

01:22:53.260 | Focus on accumulating assets.

01:22:55.180 | So what I got excited about was when you described to me,

01:22:57.420 | you said, you know, we're gonna buy a home

01:23:00.540 | and then we're gonna buy a next home,

01:23:01.580 | we're gonna try to do this a few times.

01:23:03.180 | And when I think of a newlywed couple

01:23:05.260 | who's just moving in and being together

01:23:08.460 | and still young and willing to be aggressive,

01:23:11.200 | and I think about the idea of you buying three or four houses

01:23:14.020 | in the next six or seven years,

01:23:15.820 | I'm much more excited about you having three or four houses

01:23:18.540 | in the next six or seven years

01:23:20.100 | than I am about anything else.

01:23:22.380 | And you won't wanna do that six years from now, right?

01:23:25.060 | Six years from now, if you've got a couple of children,

01:23:27.420 | you won't want to be flexible and move.

01:23:30.180 | It's too much of a hassle.

01:23:31.140 | The children, this house works for us.

01:23:33.360 | This house is close to the school that we want

01:23:35.460 | and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

01:23:37.260 | So you've got a very narrow window of time

01:23:39.580 | at which this aggressive kind of house hacking approach,

01:23:42.820 | you know, buy, move in, live there, move out,

01:23:45.380 | rent it in 12 months, buy a bunch of houses.

01:23:47.740 | And we've got dual income that we can get good financing.

01:23:50.620 | You've got a very small window of time.

01:23:53.140 | And so from a financial perspective,

01:23:55.180 | the pressure should be all about accumulating

01:23:57.300 | as many houses as is appropriate for your family

01:24:00.740 | in this very narrow window of time

01:24:02.840 | before you guys become old, you know, married people

01:24:05.440 | who just don't wanna deal with the hassle of moving again.

01:24:08.340 | And that'll happen faster than you think.

01:24:10.360 | It'll happen probably within about six years.

01:24:12.680 | And you just won't wanna deal with the hassle anymore.

01:24:14.940 | But during the next few years,

01:24:16.780 | if all of your focus is on buying a property,

01:24:19.740 | two years later, buying another property,

01:24:21.400 | two years later, buying another property,

01:24:23.180 | you flip one or two,

01:24:24.380 | you've got an amazing foundation for yourself

01:24:27.180 | by taking those actions.

01:24:29.260 | So I would just say, ignore saving for a car.

01:24:31.500 | If your current cars will work forever, no problem at all.

01:24:35.020 | If you need to replace them,

01:24:36.020 | then just pause and take some money.

01:24:37.500 | You'll have money from savings and you'll just go buy a car.

01:24:40.140 | You don't need to be in that world of,

01:24:42.140 | I need to plan ahead for five years from now

01:24:44.240 | and what should I do?

01:24:45.280 | Just focus on accumulating investment assets.

01:24:48.240 | That's option number one, all right?

01:24:49.960 | Option number two is this.

01:24:52.520 | I think if you want to drive, you know, nicer cars

01:24:56.540 | and you wanna have motivation,

01:24:58.240 | the best goal to set is I'm going to buy an investment

01:25:03.240 | that is going to pay for my consumption.

01:25:06.820 | So what I mean by that is you figure out

01:25:10.200 | what kind of car you want to have.

01:25:12.120 | You describe a $25,000 car.

01:25:14.400 | You figure out what, you know,

01:25:15.640 | go out and look at whatever brand new car you want.

01:25:19.160 | Figure out what the lease payment on that car is.

01:25:22.000 | Maybe it's $500 a month.

01:25:24.080 | And then say, here's what I'm gonna do.

01:25:26.080 | I'm gonna go, instead of saving for the car,

01:25:29.120 | I'm gonna save for an investment asset

01:25:31.160 | that's gonna buy me a car for the rest of my life.

01:25:34.000 | And so if you go and you take the money

01:25:35.760 | that you would otherwise save for the car

01:25:38.880 | and instead you go and buy a house

01:25:41.560 | and the house has a net cashflow of $500 a month,

01:25:45.800 | then now, five years from now,

01:25:47.520 | when you're ready for another car,

01:25:48.640 | just go out and lease a car

01:25:50.440 | and have your house pay your lease payment for you.

01:25:53.240 | Or go out and buy a car

01:25:54.840 | and have your house pay your car payment for you.

01:25:57.400 | And position your asset accumulation

01:25:59.740 | with a specific consumption target.

01:26:01.820 | So I wish, I appreciate the dedication of people

01:26:05.960 | who are good savers like you're describing,

01:26:08.440 | who are sitting down and who are saying,

01:26:10.040 | all right, I think in five years, I'm gonna need a car.

01:26:12.320 | And so if I do $200 a month

01:26:13.760 | at the current high yield savings rate, great.

01:26:16.360 | You know, that's good.

01:26:17.760 | If you just go a half a step further and say,

01:26:20.600 | how can I buy an asset that will pay for this consumption

01:26:24.020 | item for the rest of my life?

01:26:25.760 | I think it's way more motivating.

01:26:27.940 | It's totally doable.

01:26:29.260 | It certainly will cost you more money

01:26:31.280 | than just paying for the car, but it's totally doable.

01:26:34.800 | And now for the rest of your life,

01:26:36.120 | you know that whenever I need a new car,

01:26:38.040 | I've got this house over here and one, two, three,

01:26:40.480 | Maple Street, this is our new car house.

01:26:44.720 | And now honey, we gotta get you a new car house.

01:26:46.640 | So let's go and buy 457 Fern Avenue

01:26:49.360 | and 457 Fern Avenue, that's your new car house.

01:26:52.360 | And put names on your investments.

01:26:54.400 | And what's cool is do it from cashflow.

01:26:57.120 | And then magically when you wake up 20 years from now

01:26:59.460 | and the mortgages are all paid off,

01:27:00.880 | now you have the giant asset plus the cashflow

01:27:03.360 | and the cashflow continues to grow and you're good to go.

01:27:06.360 | So to me, I don't wanna get too involved

01:27:09.240 | in all of the complications that you described.

01:27:11.280 | I'm either gonna just ignore it and focus on accumulating

01:27:14.220 | because you can get cars anytime you need 'em

01:27:17.140 | and/or option B to say, let me buy an asset

01:27:20.160 | that will pay for this car five years from now

01:27:22.180 | when I need it.

01:27:23.020 | - Gotcha.

01:27:25.580 | Yeah, no, I appreciate it.

01:27:26.800 | I totally understand the point of view.

01:27:29.480 | And I guess my fear is, you know,

01:27:32.960 | housing, the housing market has been going up so much

01:27:35.920 | and it feels at times that houses are going up faster

01:27:40.320 | than you can even say for a down payment.

01:27:42.000 | And it's just gotten so difficult that I'm like,

01:27:45.140 | well, if I'm barely making it as is,

01:27:47.600 | well, you know, with the $2,000 in, you know,

01:27:50.200 | it's probably gonna tell me if I'm buying a house

01:27:52.760 | that is, let's say $300,000 down the line,

01:27:55.740 | I will need like, what, like 100, almost like 80, 60K

01:28:00.160 | just for a decent down payment plus the commissions

01:28:03.880 | and all that.

01:28:04.720 | There's so much money that is required.

01:28:06.820 | And I feel like we're not even saving fast enough

01:28:09.720 | because, you know, I wanna be really aggressive,

01:28:11.240 | really wanna, like you said, I wanna do it

01:28:12.960 | before it becomes more and more difficult.

01:28:16.440 | So I guess that was my fear.

01:28:19.080 | I didn't want, in the future, I didn't want like

01:28:21.180 | a car payment be something that will cap the speed

01:28:25.800 | or the rate at which I am saving money.

01:28:28.160 | So that's why I was seeing it from the point of view

01:28:30.360 | of like, okay, well, if I save for now,

01:28:32.120 | then I won't have a car payment.

01:28:33.280 | But I understand where you're coming from.

01:28:36.840 | - Yeah, it's, can you save for, sure.

01:28:39.280 | I just don't see, I don't see the point of expensive cars.

01:28:42.160 | I don't, I really don't.

01:28:43.080 | I think I acknowledge that they are necessary.

01:28:45.760 | You know, when you study signaling theory,

01:28:47.280 | I acknowledge that for some people they're necessary.

01:28:49.240 | I've just always found cars to be pretty disposable.

01:28:51.800 | And like, I don't ever wanna get into the point

01:28:53.960 | where I have to save for a car.

01:28:55.800 | And so to me, you know, that's part of it is my 10% number.

01:28:59.680 | If you're buying cars that are 10% of your annual income,

01:29:02.520 | then, which I think you should be,

01:29:04.320 | then you can pretty much do that anytime you want.

01:29:06.660 | And you just save for a couple of months

01:29:08.480 | and you can get yourself a new car.

01:29:10.200 | And in the United States where the used car market

01:29:12.560 | is so powerful, and they're just so abundant,

01:29:15.360 | it's, again, you can walk out and you can get yourself

01:29:17.560 | a perfectly reasonable car any day of the week.

01:29:19.860 | I'm not opposed to you having, you know,

01:29:22.400 | a more expensive car than what I described.

01:29:24.980 | But I think you'll be better off

01:29:26.700 | with focusing on accumulating the assets.

01:29:29.520 | You will figure out and fill in the specific details

01:29:32.240 | of the plan.

01:29:33.080 | So first house, probably do FHA financing, right?

01:29:35.840 | It's a small down payment if you can make a deal work

01:29:38.120 | with an FHA loan.

01:29:39.480 | So you'll put your small down payment,

01:29:42.040 | that frees up a little bit of money.

01:29:43.600 | Then you'll save, save, save.

01:29:44.960 | You may refinance.

01:29:47.040 | If real estate prices are going up,

01:29:48.760 | then sometimes what you do is you refinance

01:29:50.640 | the first house that you're in,

01:29:52.240 | and then you use the freed up equity

01:29:53.680 | to help you with the down payment of the second house.

01:29:56.000 | Along the way, you might sell.

01:29:57.560 | Let's say you bought two houses with what you could save,

01:30:00.640 | and then now you wanna buy the third house,

01:30:02.640 | but you don't have the money.

01:30:03.520 | So this time, instead of renting the second house,

01:30:05.920 | you may have a good bit of equity,

01:30:07.200 | so you sell the second house.

01:30:08.520 | But that gives you enough money to make two down payments

01:30:10.680 | on houses three and four, which then become two and three.

01:30:14.100 | So you're smart.

01:30:14.940 | You'll fill in those details along the way.

01:30:16.360 | I'm purely talking conceptually.

01:30:18.600 | And I'm not saying there's anything wrong

01:30:21.040 | with saving for a car.

01:30:23.000 | I think, however, it's a constant middle-class mindset

01:30:26.520 | that gets people into that.

01:30:27.920 | And so I've never seen,

01:30:30.000 | when I said describe middle-class mindset,

01:30:33.080 | the biggest that most people's minds go

01:30:35.300 | in terms of goals they can set is I'm gonna buy a car,

01:30:38.960 | I'm gonna buy a house to live in,

01:30:40.760 | and okay, I'm gonna keep working this job,

01:30:42.920 | and I'm gonna save for another car.

01:30:45.040 | And that's kind of a middle-class mindset.

01:30:47.260 | I would say an upper-class or wealthy mindset

01:30:50.560 | is more like what I described.

01:30:53.220 | I'm gonna focus on investing, investing,

01:30:54.960 | and I'm gonna just say it's the car,

01:30:57.280 | I'll buy a car whenever I need one.

01:30:58.560 | I'm always gonna have 10 grand in the bank,

01:31:00.520 | so the idea that I can't go buy a car is silly.

01:31:03.140 | And then on the flip side is

01:31:04.920 | I wanna have this consumption item,

01:31:07.000 | so let me wait on the consumption item

01:31:08.740 | and focus on buying assets that are gonna provide me

01:31:11.120 | with income for the consumption item.

01:31:12.960 | 'Cause I don't wanna drive a $10,000 car, Josh,

01:31:14.720 | I wanna drive a fancy car.

01:31:15.760 | Cool, well, if you'll buy an asset

01:31:17.960 | that'll pay for you the fancy car, then you're good.

01:31:20.280 | And so just delay that consumption a couple years

01:31:22.460 | until you can afford the asset,

01:31:23.880 | and then you'll be free for the rest of your life.

01:31:26.000 | And in the beginning, it feels a little slower,

01:31:27.840 | 'cause your college buddy who's 34

01:31:29.920 | comes home in a $75,000 pickup truck,

01:31:32.600 | and you're oohing and aahing over it,

01:31:34.480 | but he will never achieve escape velocity.

01:31:36.960 | But if you'll wait an extra three years beyond it,

01:31:39.440 | then you can drive whatever fancy cars you want

01:31:41.740 | for the rest of your life if you'll buy the assets first.

01:31:44.760 | So that should be the focus is purchasing those assets

01:31:47.200 | and not purchasing the consumption items.

01:31:49.480 | All right, we go to the great state of Texas.

01:31:51.680 | Welcome to the show, how can I serve you today?

01:31:53.640 | - Hi, Josh, thanks, great show.

01:31:58.280 | I have a quick question.

01:31:59.200 | A couple of months ago, you mentioned a former colleague

01:32:02.640 | who had started with you

01:32:04.360 | when you were doing financial planning.

01:32:06.460 | You were kind of dismissive of him.

01:32:08.160 | He was the son of a, he was a rich kid,

01:32:11.360 | and he didn't have much academic or technical knowledge.

01:32:14.560 | It sounds like he ended up being very successful,

01:32:17.740 | and in hindsight, what lessons would you take away from that?

01:32:21.500 | You never really went down that rabbit hole.

01:32:24.800 | What perspectives or mindsets did he hold

01:32:28.360 | that allowed him to be as successful as he was,

01:32:31.400 | and was part of that a matter of time?

01:32:34.280 | Would you have achieved the same level that he had

01:32:36.920 | had you stayed in that previous endeavor?

01:32:40.360 | - Fair questions, and good questions.

01:32:43.920 | So I've thought a lot about this

01:32:45.840 | because I learned so much from the situation.

01:32:48.720 | And let's begin with what I realized I was wrong about.

01:32:53.720 | The first thing that was important to note

01:32:56.480 | was just because somebody has not had a bunch of jobs

01:33:01.480 | doesn't mean that he doesn't know how to work.

01:33:04.840 | One of the things that was my experience in life

01:33:09.000 | was I always worked.

01:33:11.240 | I've always worked.

01:33:12.080 | I've always had jobs.

01:33:13.000 | I had summer jobs from an early age.

01:33:15.400 | I remember making money,

01:33:17.880 | so I've had all these different jobs.

01:33:20.000 | He never had jobs.

01:33:22.400 | His first job was his job out of college.

01:33:25.440 | But that didn't mean that he didn't know how to work.

01:33:28.480 | Now, I don't know all that much about his grades.

01:33:31.680 | I don't know all that much about what he did

01:33:33.360 | in college and in high school.

01:33:36.460 | So I just know some things.

01:33:37.720 | But what I observed was that a man can learn to work

01:33:42.260 | at things that are not a paying job.

01:33:46.700 | The skill of being productive,

01:33:50.840 | productivity is not only measured in having a job.

01:33:54.780 | So he was probably working all the way along with his grades

01:33:59.600 | and then he was on sports teams.

01:34:01.400 | And he had all kinds of things that he did.

01:34:03.160 | They just weren't jobs.

01:34:05.040 | And so one of the things that I have changed

01:34:07.880 | about my perspective,

01:34:09.000 | and I see this more clearly now as a father

01:34:10.800 | than I did back then.

01:34:12.800 | I see this now when, you know,

01:34:15.160 | if my children come to me and say,

01:34:16.700 | dad, you know, we want a job.

01:34:18.900 | I look at it and I say, okay, you can go get a job.

01:34:21.180 | That's fine.

01:34:22.700 | But I know that the benefits from that job

01:34:27.700 | are gonna be nothing like the benefits

01:34:30.740 | that can be gained from doing more academics.

01:34:34.260 | And I look at the amount of money

01:34:35.500 | that my children would earn at their job,

01:34:37.580 | especially at this very young age,

01:34:39.620 | and I think, I can just give you this money every day.

01:34:41.860 | I don't need your, I don't,

01:34:43.360 | the amount of money that you're earning at the job

01:34:45.280 | is irrelevant to our family.

01:34:46.840 | I can just pull out my wallet and give you the money.

01:34:50.000 | But if you'll stay focused on your academics,

01:34:53.080 | if you'll stay focused on your pedigree,

01:34:56.240 | if you'll stay focused on the knowledge that you accumulate

01:34:59.820 | and the skills that you accumulate,

01:35:01.720 | you'll start at a much higher level.

01:35:04.680 | And so while I wasn't, we weren't poor,

01:35:07.280 | what I realized is this is the difference,

01:35:09.120 | when I was growing up, I was never poor,

01:35:10.520 | but I realized this is the difference

01:35:11.800 | between a working class mentality

01:35:14.060 | that prioritizes having a job

01:35:16.740 | versus an upper class mentality

01:35:18.480 | that prioritizes starting at the right level.

01:35:21.980 | And the best example of this

01:35:24.860 | is somebody who is, goes for a career

01:35:28.220 | that is very high investment, but yet very high payoff.

01:35:33.220 | And so I think of a friend of mine

01:35:37.580 | who was a very specialized surgeon.

01:35:41.260 | He went to school for I don't know how many years

01:35:44.320 | to become this very specialized surgeon.

01:35:47.360 | And he, of course, high school, college, medical school,

01:35:51.580 | residency, and all the specialties,

01:35:53.640 | just crazy long amounts in school.

01:35:56.020 | He had seven figures of student loan debt when he finished.

01:35:59.400 | But then by the time he was,

01:36:01.800 | before he was 40, he had sold his practice.

01:36:03.880 | He was earning seven figures a year.

01:36:05.240 | He had sold his practice for eight figures.

01:36:07.280 | And by the time he was 40,

01:36:09.320 | it was in a radically different perspective.

01:36:11.500 | And so I never in my life even conceded,

01:36:14.660 | or sorry, conceived of going and being a lawyer

01:36:17.940 | because I just didn't understand,

01:36:19.900 | I wasn't gonna go,

01:36:21.380 | why would anybody go and borrow hundreds of thousands

01:36:23.900 | of dollars?

01:36:24.740 | I didn't understand that there is a very legitimate payoff

01:36:28.900 | to these kinds of investments in life.

01:36:31.500 | And so what I observed is that his work ethic

01:36:34.140 | was not expressed exclusively based,

01:36:37.380 | his work ethic was not inferior to mine,

01:36:40.380 | just because he had not previously had a bunch of jobs

01:36:43.780 | like I had.

01:36:44.940 | On the contrary, he had great work ethic,

01:36:47.340 | and that work ethic was certainly honed by other activities.

01:36:51.800 | The second thing that I observed is he had a set of skills

01:36:55.300 | and relationships that I never had in that business.

01:36:59.460 | The skills were enormously social skills

01:37:03.140 | and networking skills.

01:37:05.500 | And then that was compounded by the relationships.

01:37:08.820 | So when I started as a financial advisor,

01:37:10.660 | I didn't know any rich people.

01:37:12.180 | I was so intimidated by talking to rich people.

01:37:14.860 | And so all I knew was that I liked personal finance

01:37:17.780 | and I wanted to be rich.

01:37:18.780 | And so I had spent a lot of time

01:37:19.820 | reading personal finance books.

01:37:21.220 | And I leaned on academics, I leaned on knowledge.

01:37:24.560 | And the financial advisor business

01:37:27.020 | is not a knowledge business,

01:37:29.100 | it's a relationships business.

01:37:31.100 | I never had the skills of relationship formation

01:37:35.080 | that he did.

01:37:36.100 | And I never had the comfort of interacting

01:37:38.620 | with wealthy people that he did.

01:37:40.420 | So I remember like the biggest premium

01:37:44.060 | in the life insurance business that I ever showed

01:37:47.520 | was $150,000 a year.

01:37:49.860 | And I was working with this guy

01:37:51.060 | who was a super rich attorney, made lots of money.

01:37:54.060 | And I was like, okay, I'm gonna show this guy

01:37:56.420 | $150,000 a year premium on a whole life policy.

01:37:59.420 | And I did the presentation

01:38:00.740 | and I was quaking in my boots the entire time.

01:38:03.140 | I could never believe that somebody could spend

01:38:05.640 | $150,000 a year on whole life insurance.

01:38:08.680 | And I knew that it made sense.

01:38:11.600 | I wasn't showing it because it didn't make sense.

01:38:14.680 | I figured, okay, probably up to 100

01:38:16.960 | would probably be smart, but I was pushing it

01:38:19.640 | 'cause the numbers are all,

01:38:21.400 | everything looks a little bit higher.

01:38:23.800 | So I showed $150,000 a premium.

01:38:26.240 | And I couldn't even conceive

01:38:29.320 | of how somebody could have that much money

01:38:31.080 | to where they would spend $150,000 a year on life insurance.

01:38:34.700 | Now, that guy, he didn't buy 150.

01:38:37.780 | I think it was a little bit more than 50.

01:38:40.340 | But that was, I was even 50,000 a year.

01:38:42.740 | It was like, I was so uncomfortable in that situation.

01:38:46.500 | But my friend had grown up in a world

01:38:48.740 | in which there was so much money around

01:38:51.420 | that of course you just show,

01:38:53.500 | why would you ever show a life insurance illustration

01:38:55.540 | for less than six figures?

01:38:56.900 | And it was a world that I couldn't even conceive of.

01:39:00.940 | And so a lot of this stuff has to do

01:39:02.940 | with what you believe about yourself

01:39:04.420 | and what you believe about the world.

01:39:05.940 | And he was comfortable being from a high-income world.

01:39:09.460 | And he was totally comfortable with the big money,

01:39:11.700 | with the big dollars.

01:39:12.580 | Whereas I was going out and showing life insurance policies

01:39:15.180 | to my college friends at $100 a month.

01:39:17.220 | And there's a big difference

01:39:18.140 | in your overall production and performance.

01:39:20.540 | The other thing is he had the context

01:39:22.260 | and I never had the context.

01:39:23.860 | I was building context based on technical skill

01:39:26.780 | and technical knowledge.

01:39:28.060 | He had context based upon family circles

01:39:30.900 | and him being a good guy and known in the community.

01:39:34.620 | And in that kind of business,

01:39:35.780 | it's very much a relationship business.

01:39:37.820 | And so he was a decade in front of me

01:39:40.020 | in terms of his connections in the business

01:39:42.820 | versus where I was.

01:39:44.280 | Other things I observed is that I never knew

01:39:47.700 | how the process of building those contacts would work.

01:39:52.300 | Whereas he was comfortable

01:39:53.580 | with the process of building those things.

01:39:56.060 | You know, I didn't grow up going to conferences

01:40:00.020 | or networking events with my parents.

01:40:01.620 | My first networking events,

01:40:02.820 | I was so scared standing in a room full of people,

01:40:05.820 | I didn't know what to do.

01:40:07.100 | And so I studied and I went and I found a book.

01:40:09.780 | And what set me free was I found a book that gave me,

01:40:12.020 | it was a Bob Berg book on selling and networking.

01:40:15.420 | And he gave me 10 questions

01:40:17.220 | that were good conversation starters.

01:40:19.300 | And I memorized those 10 questions

01:40:21.060 | and I would go to networking events

01:40:22.300 | and I would just say those questions

01:40:23.780 | and they worked every single time.

01:40:25.720 | I knew what to do 'cause now I had a pathway to go on.

01:40:28.260 | Whereas what I observed about him is that for him,

01:40:30.760 | the social dynamics were always much more comfortable.

01:40:34.820 | And he was super good looking,

01:40:37.700 | super, you know, just amazing social skills.

01:40:40.780 | He was smart, he was confident, he was funny.

01:40:43.500 | I never observed him to be cruel or unkind to anybody.

01:40:46.240 | He was just the life of the party, a really great guy.

01:40:49.140 | And then he also had everything,

01:40:51.140 | he was comfortable in his skin

01:40:53.420 | with all of the external trappings of success.

01:40:56.700 | So, you know, he came into work on the first day

01:40:59.460 | and he's wearing a, driving a fancy BMW

01:41:02.460 | and wearing a flashy suit with all the flashy stuff.

01:41:05.940 | I was a super practical guy, you know,

01:41:07.860 | I was driving a Honda Accord around,

01:41:10.140 | a $3,000 Honda Accord when I started

01:41:12.380 | and I would always tone down the flash.

01:41:14.360 | Like the idea for me of wearing, you know,

01:41:16.740 | all the fancy stuff and the super expensive watch,

01:41:19.940 | like that's not me, that's not who I am.

01:41:22.180 | And I never thought that I could become who I was,

01:41:24.660 | whereas he was comfortable with that.

01:41:25.740 | So he fit well in the social class.

01:41:27.660 | And then finally, he was inspiring to people.

01:41:30.060 | So his big wins came from being in management,

01:41:35.060 | so being a recruiter and being good at recruiting people.

01:41:42.380 | And so he had the image of a successful recruiter,

01:41:46.460 | which was something that I never had.

01:41:48.600 | And my biggest mistake was that I always,

01:41:53.020 | I briefly ran a college recruitment program

01:41:56.340 | for our college internship program.

01:41:58.260 | And my biggest mistake is that I just believe in everybody.

01:42:01.540 | And I believe that anybody can make anything of themselves.

01:42:04.180 | And, you know, my managing director was like,

01:42:06.060 | "Joshua, not everybody can do it.

01:42:08.100 | "You've got to cut people loose."

01:42:09.700 | And the idea of cutting people loose for me

01:42:11.820 | is just not something that I like to do.

01:42:14.180 | I believe in everybody.

01:42:15.940 | So those were some of the lessons that I learned.

01:42:18.140 | And I realized that you have to be careful of,

01:42:21.940 | you need to appreciate the path that you've gone on,

01:42:25.740 | but not think that just because the path is familiar to you,

01:42:30.620 | that it's actually the best path.

01:42:33.300 | And I appreciate, I have nothing bad to say

01:42:36.680 | about my childhood.

01:42:37.660 | I'm grateful for everything about it.

01:42:39.860 | But my childhood was never oriented around the best path

01:42:43.940 | for wealth building and, you know, making a lot of money.

01:42:47.580 | And that's fine.

01:42:51.580 | But when we talk about it,

01:42:53.260 | we have to look at what other people do

01:42:54.620 | and then figure out what makes those other people different.

01:42:57.420 | And that's what I've tried to analyze.

01:42:58.860 | Now, your second question,

01:42:59.860 | could I have been as successful as he was?

01:43:02.260 | I think probably not.

01:43:04.180 | And there are a few reasons for that.

01:43:05.500 | Number one was I found that business largely boring.

01:43:10.140 | And I didn't enjoy,

01:43:12.540 | I didn't enjoy the,

01:43:16.060 | I found it kind of boring.

01:43:18.860 | And that was ultimately one of the biggest reasons I moved.

01:43:23.020 | Because when you said the same thing a hundred times,

01:43:25.140 | why do you want to say it again?

01:43:26.260 | Just so I can make money.

01:43:27.580 | I've never valued money enough just to do something boring.

01:43:30.980 | I care a lot about like vision and impact.

01:43:33.140 | And so that really hurt me,

01:43:35.660 | is that business is a doing man's business.

01:43:38.100 | It's not a thinking man's business.

01:43:39.900 | I was always drawn to the next thing.

01:43:42.540 | And so, okay, I've mastered this area of planning.

01:43:44.260 | Let me go to something else.

01:43:45.820 | And then the problem is

01:43:47.060 | you've got to bring these things together.

01:43:48.580 | And so you can be a really great technical planner,

01:43:51.940 | but you've got to be in the space

01:43:53.900 | in which that is necessary.

01:43:56.100 | So the people who are the best technical planners,

01:43:58.860 | I think probably should be working in the office

01:44:01.300 | side by side with somebody

01:44:02.740 | who is the best connector and networker

01:44:05.060 | and the most fluent in connecting with people.

01:44:08.940 | And so you really want to build big partnerships.

01:44:12.020 | But what I didn't do was I was always doing it alone.

01:44:14.500 | And so I've got to go out

01:44:15.500 | and I've got to make the connections.

01:44:17.300 | And I've got to make the connections

01:44:19.780 | and also do the planning.

01:44:24.220 | And so those two things are often opposed

01:44:27.300 | and they're kind of a different skill set.

01:44:29.620 | And then this is going to sound like

01:44:31.780 | I'm trying to be self-righteous, but it's not.

01:44:34.300 | I never cared.

01:44:35.700 | Like I always cared for the people who were broke.

01:44:38.500 | That was who I wanted to help

01:44:40.140 | because I always figured the rich people are doing fine.

01:44:43.780 | And since I was never super motivated by money,

01:44:46.300 | it was not, trying to make as much money as possible

01:44:49.700 | was never a value that was held in my family growing up.

01:44:54.020 | It was not something that I embraced.

01:44:56.100 | And so I was always trying to help catastrophe cases

01:45:01.100 | and pull them back from the tracks a little bit.

01:45:04.820 | And so that doesn't work very well

01:45:07.660 | with regard to building a financial planning business.

01:45:10.940 | 'Cause the most effective financial planning business,

01:45:13.540 | generally the most profitable, the most successful,

01:45:17.380 | generally involves an element of ruthlessness.

01:45:19.900 | You have to continually and ruthlessly pair

01:45:23.260 | your low potential clients off of your work

01:45:28.260 | so that you can go out and find higher potential clients.

01:45:31.020 | And it's a pretty ruthless business

01:45:33.180 | and I wasn't temperamentally really well suited for it.

01:45:36.860 | So no, I don't think I ever would have been

01:45:38.740 | as effective as him.

01:45:40.100 | I don't think I inspired the kind of respect that he did.

01:45:44.460 | So because he had the whole package,

01:45:46.500 | not Wolf on Wall Street, again,

01:45:48.260 | I have nothing but good things to say about this man.

01:45:50.780 | I always thought he was good hearted and everything.

01:45:53.900 | But there's an element of ruthlessness

01:45:56.100 | that you've got to have.

01:45:56.940 | And in fact, I know other friends of mine

01:45:59.060 | who kind of fit my temperament.

01:46:01.380 | Those of us who go through the world

01:46:03.140 | thinking that it's our job to just help everybody,

01:46:06.180 | we don't do well in that business

01:46:08.020 | because you spend so much time on the people

01:46:11.180 | who you're never gonna be able to help,

01:46:12.540 | but I believe in you and I really wanna help you.

01:46:14.660 | And you've gotta cut people loose.

01:46:16.180 | And so he is a good guy,

01:46:19.900 | but he has that element of ruthlessness that's necessary.

01:46:23.140 | And I don't think I ever could have developed that

01:46:25.380 | nor would I have wanted to develop it.

01:46:27.180 | I could have had a very satisfying career,

01:46:29.420 | done perfectly fine.

01:46:30.460 | There's lots of people in that business

01:46:31.860 | who are not ruthless.

01:46:33.780 | But to be at the top,

01:46:34.780 | you've got to have that element of ruthlessness.

01:46:36.740 | And I don't think that's something that,

01:46:38.540 | it's certainly not something I have

01:46:40.100 | and I don't think it's something that I wanna have.

01:46:42.420 | - Great answer.

01:46:45.380 | I'll call in next week with some follow-ups.

01:46:47.580 | Thank you.

01:46:48.740 | - My pleasure, please do.

01:46:50.140 | All right, and Jeremy in Montana,

01:46:52.380 | thank you for your patience, Jeremy.

01:46:53.740 | Round us out today.

01:46:54.580 | How can I serve you today?

01:46:56.660 | - Yeah, good afternoon, Joshua.

01:46:58.140 | I'm hoping that I do not drop you

01:47:00.540 | if you're driving right now,

01:47:01.820 | but wanted to get your thoughts

01:47:05.580 | on potentially taking a voluntary severance from my work.

01:47:10.580 | I know that financially I'd be fine.

01:47:15.900 | Severance would be about a year and a half of expenses.

01:47:21.220 | And then my wife also works

01:47:23.380 | and she makes before tax just under our yearly expenses.

01:47:27.980 | We're around half five,

01:47:30.060 | granted about 75% of that is in retirement funds.

01:47:35.260 | But I just haven't loved my job for a while

01:47:38.900 | and kind of thinking of this as an opportunity

01:47:43.140 | to make a career change

01:47:44.420 | and take a little bit of a break for a couple months

01:47:48.780 | and then find something that would be more up my alley.

01:47:52.740 | - Do you have any idea of what you might wanna go to?

01:47:55.580 | Like, is there anything out there

01:47:57.060 | that you've been thinking about?

01:47:58.660 | - There's a few things,

01:48:02.180 | but I have a challenge with that

01:48:04.620 | because I feel like I've done a few different jobs

01:48:08.140 | and I can find aspects of any job that I like,

01:48:11.220 | but maybe not necessarily love.

01:48:14.460 | So I don't have something that right now

01:48:16.820 | I feel like I'm really being pulled towards.

01:48:19.980 | - If you take this voluntary severance,

01:48:23.140 | and just to repeat, you said it,

01:48:24.540 | the severance offer is one and a half years

01:48:27.060 | of your household expenses, is that correct?

01:48:29.260 | - Yeah, about that.

01:48:31.260 | - All right, and if you were to take

01:48:32.300 | this voluntary severance,

01:48:33.660 | and don't worry about the baby, it's fine.

01:48:35.700 | We're a family-friendly show.

01:48:37.780 | If you were to take the one and a half,

01:48:38.980 | if you were to take the severance,

01:48:41.020 | could you get back into this industry

01:48:44.660 | at a similar job, at a similar company fairly easily,

01:48:48.540 | or would this be the kind of thing

01:48:49.580 | that's really hard to get back into?

01:48:51.420 | - Yeah, so as part of the severance,

01:48:56.700 | you can't ever go back to the company

01:48:58.860 | and work for them correctly.

01:49:00.660 | I think that there's like manufacturers

01:49:05.660 | and contractors that work in this industry

01:49:07.900 | that I probably could find something.

01:49:10.660 | The one thing that is a set of challenges,

01:49:13.340 | you know, we live in a rural area,

01:49:15.900 | and right now I work from home.

01:49:17.860 | I don't have to travel.

01:49:19.380 | As you can tell, I have a baby.

01:49:21.100 | Like, I'm not really super interested in travel,

01:49:23.740 | which that might be a requirement for a lot of those jobs.

01:49:29.500 | But I think that realistically,

01:49:31.700 | I probably could find something within the industry.

01:49:34.540 | - Why are they offering the voluntary severance package?

01:49:37.420 | - I mean, there's the reason,

01:49:44.340 | and then there's the reasons they say, probably.

01:49:47.260 | I think that a lot of it is just the economic times

01:49:51.140 | that right now are challenging,

01:49:52.860 | and then the, quote, target audience for this

01:49:57.180 | is people that have been with the company

01:49:59.260 | for multiple decades and are highly compensated.

01:50:02.900 | But yeah, I think in part it's to get people

01:50:07.180 | off the books for expenses,

01:50:09.700 | potentially open up career opportunities

01:50:13.860 | for the young up-and-comers.

01:50:16.900 | But it's hard to know for sure.

01:50:19.180 | - Right.

01:50:20.020 | If you weren't, if you didn't have the voluntary severance,

01:50:26.300 | knowing that you don't really love the job,

01:50:28.020 | it doesn't seem like it's a good fit for you,

01:50:29.860 | what would be your timeline otherwise for leaving?

01:50:32.460 | - My timeline for leaving,

01:50:38.380 | I think if we got to buy, or just in general,

01:50:41.700 | if I could get off the job. - Just in general, let's say,

01:50:43.620 | 'cause obviously, the reason you're considering it

01:50:45.620 | is you don't love the job.

01:50:47.140 | So before you found out

01:50:49.500 | about this voluntary severance offer,

01:50:51.660 | when you were thinking about it

01:50:53.460 | or talking with your wife about how long

01:50:55.420 | you would keep working at this company

01:50:56.800 | versus do something else, what was your previous plan?

01:50:59.500 | - Yeah, so I had actually called in,

01:51:03.180 | like, I don't know, last year,

01:51:04.820 | earlier this year or last year,

01:51:06.100 | but I've been looking for new internal jobs.

01:51:09.020 | I haven't actually looked externally.

01:51:12.060 | Like I said, I work from home,

01:51:13.820 | and the area I'm in, I'm pretty highly compensated.

01:51:17.980 | I just haven't been able to find anything internally

01:51:20.900 | that I've been able to land.

01:51:22.660 | So that's the challenge, is I haven't actually.

01:51:26.400 | (computer chimes)

01:51:29.220 | - Okay, last question.

01:51:31.340 | You may or may not be able to hear me

01:51:32.580 | 'cause you may be breaking up,

01:51:33.420 | but last question is, if you,

01:51:36.140 | this thing that you can't ever come back to the company,

01:51:39.460 | is that some kind of contract,

01:51:42.260 | or is that just an unspoken assumption?

01:51:45.060 | All right, so, oop, now you're back.

01:51:54.060 | Did you hear my question?

01:51:56.300 | (computer chimes)

01:51:59.060 | So Jeremy's driving through Montana.

01:52:00.660 | No problem, Jeremy.

01:52:01.500 | What we'll do is I'll just go ahead

01:52:02.900 | and answer your question broadly,

01:52:04.660 | and then you can listen to it afterward.

01:52:06.820 | We lost you off the call.

01:52:07.740 | So the question is,

01:52:09.820 | all right, I've got a voluntary severance offer,

01:52:11.580 | and it's kinda nice because they'll give me

01:52:14.260 | a year and a half of my expenses as a buyout option

01:52:18.300 | in order for me to give up the job.

01:52:20.500 | I'm halfway to financial independence.

01:52:22.040 | My wife generates income that almost covers our expenses.

01:52:25.180 | So we're in a pretty good spot financially.

01:52:27.660 | We can keep this going.

01:52:29.620 | Problem is, the job is highly paid.

01:52:31.740 | You're working from home.

01:52:33.020 | It's a good situation.

01:52:34.460 | So things are pretty good.

01:52:36.980 | Obviously, because of the hard work you've done

01:52:39.140 | with your financial position,

01:52:40.620 | you could go either way.

01:52:42.060 | Either way would be fine.

01:52:43.640 | If you take it, everything's gonna be fine.

01:52:46.020 | It's gonna work out.

01:52:47.300 | And if you don't take it, it's gonna be fine

01:52:49.940 | because, all right, I've been looking

01:52:51.140 | for other jobs internally,

01:52:52.380 | but I haven't been looking for other jobs externally.

01:52:55.900 | So clearly, it's not that bad of an option.

01:53:00.180 | So you're gonna be fine either way

01:53:01.980 | because of the hard work you've done with your planning,

01:53:05.380 | and you can just go with either option.

01:53:07.840 | What I would say is,

01:53:08.680 | it's just useful to look at it strategically

01:53:11.340 | and to try to assess, what do I need most

01:53:13.700 | at this point in my life?

01:53:15.720 | So if the year and a half of expenses

01:53:18.840 | is gonna be useful to you

01:53:20.740 | because it could be a big move on to the next stage,

01:53:24.240 | then you're probably better off taking it.

01:53:26.420 | So what would be some strategic ways to use it?

01:53:28.540 | Okay, I need some time off.

01:53:29.760 | Great, you can take two weeks off.

01:53:31.260 | All right, take a month off, fine.

01:53:33.260 | But we're not taking 18 months off.

01:53:34.860 | That's silly at this stage of life,

01:53:36.860 | unless there's some clear conviction

01:53:39.120 | that we wanna take 18 months

01:53:40.380 | and travel around the United States,

01:53:41.580 | and that's always what we wanted to do, fine.

01:53:43.380 | But the point is, if you can use this strategically,

01:53:46.820 | then it can be a real blessing.

01:53:48.660 | So strategically, what we're looking for

01:53:50.380 | is not just taking time off and doing nothing.

01:53:53.260 | We're looking for doing things

01:53:55.220 | that previously the work has made really hard to do.

01:53:58.740 | So getting a degree, another degree,

01:54:01.380 | making connections, looking for,

01:54:04.300 | starting something of my own,

01:54:05.620 | writing the book that I've always wanted to write,

01:54:08.220 | buying the business that I've always wanted to buy.

01:54:10.620 | So if you can use the time that you have

01:54:13.340 | of a year of wiggle room

01:54:15.820 | as a way to move strategically to the next thing,

01:54:19.420 | then it can be the obvious solution.

01:54:22.580 | If you don't have any idea on how to use it strategically,

01:54:26.100 | then it's not so valuable.

01:54:28.860 | And it might be nicer to have this pretty cushy job

01:54:32.100 | where I work from home and I have a good schedule

01:54:34.740 | and I make a lot of money,

01:54:36.620 | I'm highly compensated for the area.

01:54:38.660 | That may turn out to be more useful in the long run.

01:54:42.740 | So I wouldn't take it until I can create a plan

01:54:47.740 | of how I'm going to invest the time

01:54:50.620 | and feel really good about the option.

01:54:53.180 | Because if there are limited jobs in your area

01:54:56.540 | where you, for this kind of pay and these kinds of benefits,

01:55:01.540 | then just walking away from the one

01:55:04.140 | that is their first offer may not be the smartest idea.

01:55:08.300 | So what I would challenge you to do

01:55:09.820 | is lay out a plan to say, number one, let's say I take it.

01:55:14.700 | How can I really use this strategically

01:55:18.300 | in order to advance me on to the next phase

01:55:20.740 | of what I wanna do

01:55:21.900 | by giving me a little bit more time than I expected?

01:55:24.140 | And if you get a really good plan where it makes sense,

01:55:26.420 | then sure, go ahead and take the severance.

01:55:28.660 | If you don't have that, then keep the job

01:55:31.700 | because they'll probably make you a similar offer

01:55:34.780 | in the future.

01:55:35.820 | And if it's involuntary severance in the future,

01:55:40.500 | then they're probably gonna pay you out

01:55:42.140 | something like what you're doing now.

01:55:43.700 | And if you can just keep this job

01:55:45.780 | and do everything else that you're doing,

01:55:48.080 | then why would you do that?

01:55:49.940 | The concern that I have is just simply,

01:55:51.940 | I don't want you to get rusty.

01:55:53.500 | And if you take a year and a half off

01:55:55.540 | and you hang out and you play with your babies

01:55:57.860 | and you don't ever do anything

01:55:59.140 | and then the money starts to run out

01:56:00.740 | and your wife is saying,

01:56:01.580 | "Hey, honey, can we get some money coming in here

01:56:03.500 | from your end?"

01:56:04.500 | Then it can be much more difficult

01:56:06.540 | to make progress from that.

01:56:08.780 | So Jeremy, those were my answers.

01:56:10.620 | You can go back and listen to it.

01:56:11.700 | But in essence, either one is fine

01:56:13.180 | because of the good financial position you're in.

01:56:15.180 | I just think that before you take the severance,

01:56:17.100 | you should develop a really compelling plan

01:56:19.580 | that is so obviously useful to you

01:56:21.740 | and moving you and your wife

01:56:22.900 | towards what you really wanna go

01:56:24.620 | and then take the severance.

01:56:25.860 | But if you don't have that, wait until you do have that.

01:56:28.420 | Make sense?

01:56:32.100 | - That makes sense and I'll listen back

01:56:33.460 | 'cause we were in and out.

01:56:35.060 | I appreciate the input.

01:56:37.140 | Thank you.

01:56:37.980 | - My pleasure.

01:56:38.820 | And we move again to Seattle.

01:56:41.420 | Welcome to the show.

01:56:42.300 | How can I serve you today?

01:56:43.620 | Seattle, Seattle, going once.

01:56:49.380 | Seattle, Washington, going twice.

01:56:55.580 | Seattle, Seattle, you're up.

01:56:59.300 | You're up.

01:57:00.660 | You've waited on so long.

01:57:01.860 | I don't have a name.

01:57:02.700 | I don't have a number.

01:57:03.540 | I just have so long.

01:57:04.380 | So we will wrap it up with that.

01:57:06.940 | All right.

01:57:11.060 | That concludes our Friday Q&A show.

01:57:12.380 | Just wanted to give him just a moment to see.

01:57:14.460 | Thank you so much for all the great calls today,

01:57:16.660 | all the great discussion.

01:57:18.100 | Thank you for listening.

01:57:18.940 | I hope that you have found something useful here.

01:57:21.340 | As always, take what's useful and discard what is not.

01:57:24.700 | If you would like to join me on next week's Q&A show,

01:57:26.780 | you can do that by going to patreon.com/radicalpersonalfinance

01:57:29.780 | patreon.com/radicalpersonalfinance.

01:57:31.620 | We'll get access for you to next week's Q&A show.

01:57:33.780 | Thank you so much.

01:57:34.860 | - At Cox Mobile, we know you're smart.

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2024-07-12_Friday_QA