2022-08-25_Student_Loan_Debt

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00:00:25.380 | Big news from the United States for those who have student loans.

00:00:28.560 | It seems probable, based upon yesterday's announcement by President Biden, it seems

00:00:33.000 | probable that if you have student loans, federal student loans, and if you earn under $125,000

00:00:38.480 | per year, that some portion, up to 10, or in some cases $20,000 of your loans, will

00:00:43.600 | be reduced, forgiven, canceled by the federal government.

00:00:47.760 | Welcome to Radical Personal Finance, the show dedicated to providing you with the knowledge,

00:00:50.520 | skills, insight, and encouragement you need to live a rich and meaningful life now while

00:00:54.460 | building a plan for financial freedom in 10 years or less.

00:00:56.960 | My name is Joshua Sheets, and today we're going to talk about this student loan news.

00:01:00.400 | First, I want to go over what it actually means, a fact sheet of what's actually happening,

00:01:06.200 | what the government says it's going to do, what are the rules for qualifying.

00:01:10.400 | We'll talk a little bit about planning ideas.

00:01:12.200 | Are there some financial planning ideas that you can implement or things that you can do

00:01:16.800 | to make sure that you get the most government money that you can?

00:01:20.720 | And then number three, we'll talk about general response and reaction to this.

00:01:24.960 | What does this mean in terms of a social context, a political context?

00:01:29.840 | What does this mean for people who have paid off their loans, et cetera?

00:01:32.720 | So let's begin by reading the fact sheet published at whitehouse.gov.

00:01:36.800 | Fact sheet, President Biden announces student loan relief for borrowers who need it most.

00:01:41.840 | A three-part plan delivers on President Biden's promise to cancel $10,000 of student debt

00:01:46.920 | for low to middle income borrowers.

00:01:50.280 | President Biden believes that a post-high school education should be a ticket to a middle

00:01:54.200 | class life.

00:01:55.560 | But for too many, the cost of borrowing for college is a lifelong burden that deprives

00:01:59.840 | them of that opportunity.

00:02:02.080 | During the campaign, he promised to provide student debt relief.

00:02:04.720 | Today, the Biden administration is following through on that promise and providing families

00:02:08.800 | breathing room as they prepare to start repaying loans after the economic crisis brought on

00:02:14.300 | by the pandemic.

00:02:16.200 | Since 1980, the total cost of both four-year public and four-year private college has nearly

00:02:20.200 | tripled even after accounting for inflation.

00:02:24.160 | Federal support has not kept up.

00:02:25.840 | Pell Grants once covered nearly 80 percent of the cost of a four-year public college

00:02:29.520 | degree for students from working families, but now only cover a third.

00:02:33.960 | That has left many students from low and middle income families with no choice but to borrow

00:02:39.440 | if they want to get a degree.

00:02:41.280 | According to a Department of Education analysis, the typical undergraduate student with loans

00:02:45.800 | now graduates with nearly $25,000 in debt.

00:02:50.520 | The skyrocketing cumulative federal student loan debt, $1.6 trillion and rising for more

00:02:55.680 | than 45 million borrowers, is a significant burden on America's middle class.

00:03:00.780 | Middle class borrowers struggle with high monthly payments and ballooning balances that

00:03:05.360 | make it harder for them to build wealth like buying homes, putting away money for retirement,

00:03:09.960 | and starting small businesses.

00:03:12.480 | For the most vulnerable borrowers, the effects of debt are even more crushing.

00:03:16.580 | Nearly one-third of borrowers have debt but no degree.

00:03:19.440 | According to an analysis by the Department of Education of a recent cohort of undergraduates,

00:03:24.120 | many of these students could not complete their degree because the cost of attendance

00:03:27.800 | was too high.

00:03:29.560 | About 16 percent of borrowers are in default, including nearly a third of senior citizens

00:03:34.360 | with student debt, which can result in the government garnishing a borrower's wages

00:03:38.440 | or lowering a borrower's credit score.

00:03:40.960 | The student debt burden also falls disproportionately on black borrowers.

00:03:45.560 | Twenty years after first enrolling in school, the typical black borrower who started college

00:03:50.660 | in the 1995-96 school year still owed 95 percent of their original student debt.

00:03:58.400 | Today, President Biden is announcing a three-part plan to provide more breathing room to America's

00:04:02.920 | working families as they continue to recover from the strains associated with the COVID-19

00:04:08.480 | pandemic.

00:04:09.480 | This plan offers targeted debt relief as part of a comprehensive effort to address the burden

00:04:14.040 | of growing college costs and make the student loan system more manageable for working families.

00:04:21.360 | The President is announcing that the Department of Education will provide targeted debt relief

00:04:26.160 | to address the financial harms of the pandemic, fulfilling the President's campaign commitment.

00:04:31.720 | The Department of Education will provide up to $20,000 in debt cancellation to Pell Grant

00:04:35.640 | recipients with loans held by the Department of Education and up to $10,000 in debt cancellation

00:04:42.120 | to non-Pell Grant recipients.

00:04:44.800 | Borrowers are eligible for this relief if their individual income is less than $125,000

00:04:50.160 | or $250,000 for married couples.

00:04:53.100 | No high-income individual or high-income household in the top 5 percent of incomes will benefit

00:04:58.480 | from this action.

00:05:00.240 | To ensure a smooth transition to repayment and prevent unnecessary defaults, the pause

00:05:05.680 | on federal student loan repayment will be extended one final time through December 31,

00:05:12.640 | 2022.

00:05:14.460 | Borrowers should expect to resume payment in January 2023.

00:05:19.560 | Make the student loan system more manageable for current and future borrowers by cutting

00:05:23.880 | monthly payments in half for undergraduate loans.

00:05:27.220 | The Department of Education is proposing a new income-driven repayment plan that protects

00:05:31.160 | more low-income borrowers from making any payments and caps monthly payments for undergraduate

00:05:36.320 | loans at 5 percent of a borrower's discretionary income—half of the rate that borrowers must

00:05:41.320 | pay now under most existing plans.

00:05:44.560 | This means that the average annual student loan payment will be lowered by more than

00:05:48.200 | $1,000 for both current and future borrowers.

00:05:52.080 | Fixing the broken Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program by proposing a rule that borrowers

00:05:58.760 | who have worked at a non-profit in the military or in federal, state, tribal, or local government

00:06:03.880 | receive appropriate credit toward loan forgiveness.

00:06:07.480 | These improvements will build on temporary changes the Department of Education has already

00:06:10.640 | made to PSLF, under which more than 175,000 public servants have already had more than

00:06:16.640 | $10 billion in loan forgiveness approved.

00:06:20.640 | And protect future students and taxpayers by reducing the cost of college and holding

00:06:25.620 | schools accountable when they hike up prices.

00:06:29.400 | The President championed the largest increase to Pell Grants in over a decade, and one of

00:06:33.720 | the largest one-time influxes to colleges and universities.

00:06:37.720 | To further reduce the cost of college, the President will continue to fight to double

00:06:40.880 | the maximum Pell Grant and make community college free.

00:06:45.120 | Meanwhile, colleges have an obligation to keep prices reasonable and ensure borrowers

00:06:50.760 | get value for their investments, not debt they cannot afford.

00:06:56.360 | This Administration has already taken key steps to strengthen accountability, including

00:07:00.680 | in areas where the previous Administration weakened rules.

00:07:05.800 | The Department of Education is announcing new efforts to ensure student borrowers get

00:07:09.480 | value for their college costs.

00:07:13.180 | And provide targeted debt relief, fulfilling the President's campaign commitment.

00:07:16.960 | To address the financial harms of the pandemic for low- and middle-income borrowers and avoid

00:07:20.660 | defaults as loan repayment restarts next year, the Department of Education will provide up

00:07:25.280 | to $20,000 in loan relief to borrowers with loans held by the Department of Education,

00:07:30.520 | whose individual income is less than $125,000 for married couples and who received a Pell

00:07:37.120 | Grant.

00:07:38.120 | Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat.

00:07:39.120 | Blah, blah, blah.

00:07:40.120 | And blah, blah, blah.

00:07:41.120 | Same old, same old.

00:07:42.120 | I think that's enough.

00:07:43.120 | So you get the idea of the White House's press relief and propaganda piece there.

00:07:51.060 | U.S. Department of Education, Biden-Harris Administration announces final student loan

00:07:56.160 | pause extension through December 31, and targeted debt cancellation to smooth transition to

00:08:01.740 | repayment.

00:08:02.740 | It goes on with some details.

00:08:05.940 | So in essence, what do you need to know?

00:08:07.900 | Well, let's read from the Wall Street Journal, "Student Loan Forgiveness, Who Qualifies for

00:08:12.500 | a Student Loan Forgiveness Plan and What It Means for Borrowers.

00:08:15.180 | Millions of Americans with student debt stand to get relief.

00:08:18.540 | President Biden's student loan plan will reduce or wipe out the debt of millions of

00:08:22.660 | borrowers.

00:08:23.660 | The plan eliminates up to $10,000 in federal loan debt for individual borrowers with annual

00:08:28.060 | incomes of under $125,000 or couples who earn less than $250,000.

00:08:34.480 | Many borrowers will be eligible for total forgiveness up to $20,000 if they received

00:08:39.300 | Pell Grants, a form of federal financial aid awarded to students from low-income households.

00:08:45.500 | "We're in unprecedented territory," said Scott Buchanan, executive director of the

00:08:50.780 | Student Loan Servicing Alliance.

00:08:52.020 | "This has never been done before.

00:08:54.500 | The plan is expected to benefit the majority of the more than 43 million people in the

00:08:57.660 | United States who hold a total of $1.6 trillion in student loan debt."

00:09:03.660 | Skipping down, a couple of questions.

00:09:05.540 | Who is eligible?

00:09:06.540 | We've covered that.

00:09:07.540 | You're eligible for $10,000 in relief if you earn less than $125,000 a year or $250,000

00:09:13.060 | a year for couples.

00:09:14.260 | The income limit applies to gross adjusted income from 2021 or 2020.

00:09:20.860 | People who received federal Pell Grants in college will also be eligible for up to $20,000

00:09:24.700 | in forgiveness.

00:09:26.040 | Around 6 in 10 borrowers with any federal loans also received a Pell Grant, according

00:09:30.380 | to the White House.

00:09:31.380 | And Pell Grant recipient graduates hold about $4,500 more in debt than other graduates,

00:09:37.300 | according to a 2020 analysis.

00:09:39.460 | When will forgiveness take effect?

00:09:41.060 | The timing remains uncertain, but the Education Department has promised more details in the

00:09:44.860 | weeks ahead, at minimum before student loan payments resume in January 2023.

00:09:50.460 | Do I need to take action to receive debt relief?

00:09:53.260 | Not yet.

00:09:54.260 | Wait until you receive a notification from your loan servicer, Mr. Buchanan said.

00:09:58.500 | Beware of any friendly-sounding phone calls or suspicious-looking emails from addresses

00:10:02.260 | you don't recognize.

00:10:04.180 | It's a very complicated process and it's going to take months to effectuate, he said.

00:10:08.180 | Don't do anything until you see something happen to your account.

00:10:11.140 | Meanwhile, double-check the information you've already shared with your loan servicer and

00:10:14.660 | the studentaid.gov website.

00:10:17.080 | If you've recently moved or changed any contact information, you're going to want to make

00:10:20.420 | sure that they have the most up-to-date addresses, said Mark Kantrowitz, a student loan expert.

00:10:26.460 | What if I have private student loans?

00:10:28.540 | Only federal debt is eligible.

00:10:30.440 | What if the amount I owe is under $10,000?

00:10:32.960 | If you owe less than $10,000 on your loan, or $20,000 for those who received Pell Grants,

00:10:37.780 | then congratulations, you'll now be student debt-free.

00:10:40.820 | President Biden's plan will wipe out the debt of around 15 million borrowers.

00:10:45.180 | Is the pause on student loan payments extended?

00:10:48.300 | Before today's announcement, loan payments were expected to resume on August 31.

00:10:51.780 | Now, borrowers will see the pause extended through the end of the year.

00:10:55.300 | Interest accrual and collections remain on pause as well.

00:10:58.820 | Are parent plus loans eligible?

00:11:01.100 | Yes, an individual student is limited in how much money they can take out on federal loans,

00:11:05.660 | but through the parent plus and grad plus programs, families can borrow the total cost

00:11:09.160 | of attendance, including room and board and other expenses.

00:11:12.600 | This forgiveness applies to federal loans for both undergraduate and graduate programs

00:11:16.600 | as well as to parent plus loans, White House officials said.

00:11:20.100 | Is my debt forgiveness tax exempt?

00:11:23.220 | Debt forgiveness is often treated as income on taxes, but unfortunately for borrowers,

00:11:31.080 | this canceled student debt is federally tax exempt, as seen in other federal student debt

00:11:36.440 | forgiveness programs.

00:11:38.080 | Under existing state laws, in as many as 13 states, student loan forgiveness could count

00:11:42.220 | as taxable income on state income tax returns, according to Jared Wolsak, blah blah blah.

00:11:48.420 | What if I've already paid off my loans?

00:11:50.220 | As of the end of last year, fewer than 1.2% of borrowers continued making payments on

00:11:54.360 | their student loans, Mr. Kantrowitz said, but some of the borrowers took advantage of

00:11:58.280 | the two plus years of optional, interest-free payments to wipe out their debt entirely.

00:12:04.280 | This measure won't apply to balances that have already been paid off.

00:12:07.520 | In other words, sucks to be you.

00:12:11.480 | You missed out on your free money.

00:12:14.000 | So that's the facts of what you need to know.

00:12:17.760 | Now let's talk about planning.

00:12:20.320 | Are there some planning opportunities?

00:12:22.240 | For here I want to go directly to Jeff Levine, CPA, PFS, and CFP, who is an extremely prolific

00:12:31.560 | Twitter @CPAPlanner on Twitter.

00:12:34.760 | Wonderful Twitter account, works with Michael Kitsis as one of his financial planning nerds.

00:12:38.680 | So let's go with Jeff's discussion on planning opportunities, one of the best financial planners

00:12:44.600 | to cover current events in detail.

00:12:48.280 | So for many, the headline news from today is the potential forgiveness of a substantial

00:12:52.460 | amount of student debt.

00:12:53.460 | In general, maximum debt forgiveness is limited to $10,000 per borrower, except for a Pell

00:12:57.680 | grant to $20,000.

00:12:59.560 | A few important clarifiers.

00:13:01.440 | It's not $10,000 plus $20,000 if you got a Pell grant.

00:13:06.080 | It's $10,000 plus $10,000 more for a total of $20,000.

00:13:10.840 | I've seen that misreported several times today.

00:13:13.920 | Debt of Pell grant only boosts max loan forgiveness for undergrad.

00:13:21.360 | Pell grants themselves don't generally have to be repaid.

00:13:24.700 | So it's not that the extra money is for Pell grant repayment, it's extra forgiveness on

00:13:29.580 | loans because the person also got a Pell grant, which tend to go to lower income households.

00:13:36.180 | Now let's talk about who qualifies for this relief.

00:13:39.080 | Most taxpayers with federal loans will be eligible for the relief, but as income exceeds,

00:13:43.880 | certain levels, the forgiveness is eliminated.

00:13:47.000 | It sounds simple enough, but there's actually a lot here to consider.

00:13:50.760 | Let's start with the thresholds.

00:13:53.160 | Filing as joint or head of household, you have $250,000 limit.

00:13:57.800 | Single or married filing singly, $125,000.

00:14:02.040 | Now it's going to get interesting.

00:14:04.160 | What's income?

00:14:05.160 | Unclear, but I'd suspect it's going to be AGI, Adjusted Gross Income, which is the type

00:14:11.600 | of income that income-driven repayment plans start with.

00:14:15.320 | What year or years are the income limits in reference to?

00:14:19.280 | 2020 or 2021?

00:14:22.760 | If in at least one of those years an individual's income was below their applicable threshold,

00:14:28.200 | they get the forgiveness.

00:14:30.240 | Side note, the administration sort of has to do it that way.

00:14:33.360 | They're using the pandemic emergency as the justification for forgiving the debt legally.

00:14:38.360 | Are those income thresholds a cliff?

00:14:41.000 | I'm not totally sure, but it certainly appears so, which sort of creates some strange inequities.

00:14:47.200 | In retrospect, you'd be way better off earning $124,000 in 2020 and 2021 and getting $10,000

00:14:54.720 | of forgiveness than if you had earned $125,000.

00:15:00.240 | Now let's talk about planning.

00:15:01.760 | Sadly, for most people, there is no real planning that can be done.

00:15:06.120 | Whatever their income was in those years, it was.

00:15:09.000 | End of story.

00:15:10.000 | But that's not to say there aren't at least some planning opportunities out there.

00:15:14.040 | Two come to mind.

00:15:15.440 | First, business owners who have not yet filed their 2021 tax returns may want to give serious

00:15:21.600 | thought to beefing up retirement contributions.

00:15:25.240 | Even if it means giving more to employees than normal, getting AGI low enough to qualify

00:15:30.600 | for relief may more than make up for it.

00:15:34.480 | Sorry, tweet thread messed up.

00:15:41.360 | On the income side of things, all the forgiven debt will be tax-free at the federal level.

00:15:47.120 | Things are dramatically more complex at the state level.

00:15:49.880 | In some states, it's already tax-free.

00:15:52.580 | State has no tax, conforms to federal rules, or has its own exception.

00:15:56.180 | Some states, which don't currently have an exception, will create one, and instill others

00:16:00.320 | the discharged debt is going to be taxable.

00:16:02.920 | Oof.

00:16:03.920 | Kevin Cant has a good article on this, but I would anticipate more changes before year

00:16:07.680 | end.

00:16:08.680 | This is from thecollegeinvestor.com.

00:16:09.680 | Okay, on to which loans qualify and which don't.

00:16:12.200 | In general, federal student loans qualify for relief.

00:16:15.560 | Private loans do not.

00:16:16.640 | Some specifics.

00:16:18.080 | Parent PLUS loans are eligible for forgiveness.

00:16:21.600 | Relevant income is that of the borrower, parent, and appears to have no impact on a child's

00:16:25.600 | eligibility to get forgiveness.

00:16:28.240 | So in theory, a parent could have $10,000 of parent PLUS loans forgiven, and the childhood

00:16:34.760 | loans were taken for could have up to $20,000 of their own debt forgiven.

00:16:40.680 | On the flip side, parents with $30,000 total parent PLUS loans, split evenly across three

00:16:46.480 | kids would appear to qualify for only $10,000 of forgiveness.

00:16:51.400 | Graduate school loans are also eligible for forgiveness, up to $10,000.

00:16:56.800 | One thing that's not clear is how FFEL program loans will be treated.

00:17:01.320 | I strongly suspect that federally owned loans will be eligible for relief, but that privately

00:17:07.460 | held FFEL program loans will not.

00:17:10.660 | This is, objectively, an incredibly unfair result for those whose FFEL program loans

00:17:16.460 | are still held by private companies.

00:17:18.680 | Essentially, luck of the draw is determining who's getting a $10,000 break.

00:17:22.960 | Oh, one more here on which loans count.

00:17:28.000 | Student debt of active students is also eligible for relief, provided loans were funded by

00:17:31.620 | June 30, 2022.

00:17:33.720 | True for everyone.

00:17:35.560 | Important point, if the student was claimed as a dependent, you need to use the parent's

00:17:39.480 | income.

00:17:40.480 | Finally, how do you actually get forgiveness?

00:17:43.120 | Well, for many it will essentially be automatic because the Department of Education already

00:17:47.160 | has income information on file.

00:17:49.600 | For everyone else, a "simple" application will be made available by year-end.

00:17:52.960 | Okay, moving on to other aspects of the announcement.

00:17:56.440 | Prior to today, the current 0% interest rate and moratorium on federal student loan payments

00:18:01.280 | was set to expire at the end of the month.

00:18:03.780 | But per today's announcement, we will have another.

00:18:05.760 | I think this may be #5 just during the Biden era, with several before under Trump.

00:18:10.200 | Extension, this time until December 31, 2022.

00:18:14.120 | What's different this time is it appears to be the end of the line.

00:18:17.360 | Both the White House's fact sheet and President Biden directly in his address made clear this

00:18:21.300 | is the final such extension.

00:18:23.800 | Reminder only applies to federal debt.

00:18:26.120 | I know.

00:18:28.040 | Last item we'll dig into for tonight is the administration's plan for a new income-driven

00:18:32.880 | repayment plan.

00:18:34.380 | There are already 5 of these things and now we're going to add a 6th.

00:18:39.240 | Added complexity is the downside, the upside is the new IDR, income-driven repayment plan,

00:18:44.000 | will offer material improvements for many borrowers, including new baseline for non-discretionary

00:18:49.040 | protected income of 225% of the federal poverty line income, currently 150% in most instances,

00:18:56.640 | maximum annual payments of 5% of discretionary income for undergraduate loans, and 10% for

00:19:01.520 | graduate loans, currently 10-20% depending on the program.

00:19:05.600 | Note borrowers with both loan types will have a weighted average maximum loan payment calculated.

00:19:10.000 | Good luck to whoever gets that job.

00:19:12.240 | Balances won't increase as long as monthly payments, including $0 payments due to lower

00:19:16.400 | income, are made on time.

00:19:18.720 | Remaining balances will generally be forgiven after 20 years of payments, but where the

00:19:22.700 | original balance was $12,000 or less, substitute 10 for 20 years.

00:19:29.480 | One last point to make in light of today's announcements, please remember that there

00:19:32.680 | is currently a special opportunity with respect to the PSLF program.

00:19:37.120 | In short, there's a limited amount of time during which individuals can apply for waivers

00:19:42.640 | to have prior payments that would not normally count towards forgiveness considered for that

00:19:48.160 | purpose.

00:19:49.160 | This is huge.

00:19:50.160 | The PSLF program isn't limited to $10,000 of debt.

00:19:53.560 | It can make all of an individual's qualified student debt disappear after 10 years of qualified

00:20:00.560 | payments.

00:20:01.560 | For more info, it gives a link to studentaid.gov/announcements.

00:20:06.240 | And so that is the current planning information.

00:20:12.000 | So there's not much you can do, but if you can reduce your income through things like

00:20:18.400 | additional retirement contributions or something else to reduce your adjusted gross income

00:20:23.360 | for 2021 below the applicable limit, then possibly that will make you eligible for the

00:20:29.680 | student loan forgiveness.

00:20:33.240 | So now let's pivot to some commentary on the topic, kind of more broadly from an economic

00:20:38.480 | perspective, from an ethical perspective, etc.

00:20:45.440 | Because I think that's interesting.

00:20:47.140 | There's not a lot that you can do to change this.

00:20:50.720 | It's being done by executive order, by executive fiat.

00:20:54.240 | Time will tell.

00:20:55.240 | So the first thing that will be interesting to see is if this actually goes through.

00:20:59.000 | An announcement is one thing, but this is legally probably on pretty thin ice.

00:21:04.920 | It's my understanding that the president is seeking to do this under the emergency

00:21:09.600 | powers granted by the pandemic.

00:21:15.840 | And so that's why we have to do it now.

00:21:18.160 | That's why everything's kind of wrapped up in yes, 2020, 2021 numbers, etc.

00:21:23.360 | Maybe this will fly.

00:21:24.560 | Maybe there's some legal issue.

00:21:25.800 | I'm not a qualified commentator on that particular topic, but it's certainly on thin ice.

00:21:32.600 | And I think that it very clearly, if it's not technically illegal, if it's not challenged,

00:21:38.880 | and again, I have no reason to know one way or the other, it certainly violates the basic

00:21:44.520 | structure of American politics and the structure, the basic idea of constitutionality.

00:21:52.640 | The American president is not supposed to have powers to unilaterally choose to come

00:22:00.360 | into office and wave his magic wand and give money to a certain class of people and take

00:22:04.960 | money away from another certain class of people to do that.

00:22:08.160 | So whether it's actually held up by a court debate of some kind, whether it happens or

00:22:13.400 | not, we don't know.

00:22:14.400 | And this is very clear and obvious, even from the politicians' mouths themselves.

00:22:18.120 | You can go and you can find plenty of quotes of leading democratic politicians simply saying,

00:22:24.160 | "Yeah, the president doesn't have the authority to do this."

00:22:27.520 | Let me read to you directly from Speaker Pelosi's words.

00:22:30.800 | I'm reading from speaker.gov/newsroom/72821-2, which is a transcript of the Pelosi Weekly

00:22:38.800 | Press Conference for July 28, 2021.

00:22:43.600 | And the question says, the question says, sorry, I went up to find the, here we go.

00:22:57.640 | Question, there's been a lot of back and forth between the administration and Democrats here

00:23:01.560 | on Capitol Hill about student loans and canceling student loan debt.

00:23:06.160 | Each have said, "Well, the president can do this by executive order."

00:23:09.240 | The president said, "Oh, let's do it by legislation."

00:23:12.040 | Could you explain why the administration and Democrats in Congress pushing for this or

00:23:16.000 | fighting this?

00:23:17.360 | And I mean, it would seem there's not the votes to pass the bill.

00:23:20.400 | Is that in fact the case?

00:23:21.600 | Is that why Congress is, Speaker Pelosi?

00:23:24.000 | No, but thank you for your question.

00:23:26.040 | It's so refreshing to get a question on substance and process, but not responding to whatever.

00:23:31.120 | Here's the thing.

00:23:32.120 | People think that the president of the United States, is this more on the subject than you

00:23:35.120 | ever want to know?

00:23:36.360 | Well, you'll let me know.

00:23:37.960 | People think that the president of the United States has the power for debt forgiveness.

00:23:41.600 | He does not.

00:23:42.960 | He can postpone, he can delay, but he does not have that power.

00:23:47.600 | That has to be an act of Congress.

00:23:49.680 | And I don't even like to call it forgiveness because that implies a transgression.

00:23:54.240 | It's not to be forgiven, just freeing people from those obligations.

00:23:58.200 | So the question of who gets forgiven, to use the term of art that is out there, is a debate.

00:24:03.240 | Do we use whatever money there is for the broadest base of support of those with more

00:24:08.280 | people with even less debt or fewer people with more debt?

00:24:11.400 | That's a policy discussion.

00:24:13.040 | But the difference between the president, the president can't do it.

00:24:16.020 | So that's not even a discussion.

00:24:18.200 | Not everybody realizes that.

00:24:20.040 | But the president can only postpone, delay, but not forgive.

00:24:25.480 | Question.

00:24:26.480 | And that said, following up, what would be the parameter?

00:24:29.120 | And what would be fair to those who have incurred major debts, repaid them, or are still working

00:24:33.420 | to do so?

00:24:34.420 | Speaker Pelosi.

00:24:35.420 | Yeah.

00:24:36.420 | And question.

00:24:37.420 | And then if, say, something were to go through, say, okay, this group had to pay and this

00:24:40.940 | group does not.

00:24:42.520 | Speaker Pelosi.

00:24:43.520 | Yeah, well, you, there you are.

00:24:46.560 | You've described it very well.

00:24:47.880 | I do think that what the president is putting forth, and build back better in terms of opportunity

00:24:51.760 | for all Americans, whether they go to college or not, you know, they may not even aspire

00:24:55.900 | to that.

00:24:56.900 | And that's fine.

00:24:57.900 | And that's fine.

00:24:58.900 | But we do want to give them vocational training or other opportunities so they can reach their

00:25:01.940 | fulfillment as well.

00:25:03.520 | So this is a broader discussion.

00:25:05.440 | But it is, it's not one that we're going to solve right here and now.

00:25:09.360 | But you, you, that would be an attitude that people would have.

00:25:12.880 | But even take it on top of that.

00:25:14.400 | Suppose your family was not, your child just decided they want to, at this time, not want

00:25:18.560 | to go to college.

00:25:19.780 | But you're paying taxes to forgive somebody else's obligations.

00:25:22.920 | You may not be happy about that.

00:25:24.640 | But you know what?

00:25:25.640 | We want all of our kids to reach their fulfillment.

00:25:28.000 | To the extent that they want to go to college, we do not want them to be prohibited from

00:25:31.520 | doing that for financial reasons.

00:25:33.520 | I've had high school students come in here and say, with their grades, they're able to

00:25:37.320 | be accepted in the Ivy League here and there.

00:25:39.320 | But their family's economic situation does not enable that to happen.

00:25:42.840 | Because they have to stay close to home to work to be part of the family situation.

00:25:46.800 | So what we'd like to do is have an economy that is fair, that gives opportunity and does

00:25:50.640 | not hold anybody back because of financial reasons.

00:25:53.700 | And again, how some people may view the relieving people of this obligation has to be viewed

00:25:57.360 | in a fair way where we have something that gives opportunity.

00:26:00.240 | That's the big word.

00:26:01.840 | Opportunity to all of America's families.

00:26:04.960 | Yes, yes.

00:26:05.960 | And we go on to more questions.

00:26:09.480 | So that is a verbatim reading of the question answer from Speaker Pelosi of just over one

00:26:16.600 | year ago.

00:26:18.380 | So legally speaking, the president is on very thin ice here.

00:26:22.640 | But time will tell what will happen.

00:26:25.840 | Of any branch of government, I have the most faith in the judicial branch, but I don't

00:26:29.760 | have much faith at all in it.

00:26:31.940 | So time will tell whether some legal challenge comes, whether this happens or not.

00:26:37.440 | I think what Speaker Pelosi pointed out though, there is at the core though of what is really

00:26:43.680 | angering a lot of Americans.

00:26:48.100 | There are many people who are very happy.

00:26:51.000 | There are many people who have student debt who are very happy that their student debt

00:26:55.000 | will be reduced by again up to potentially $20,000.

00:26:59.520 | And I hope, it's my earnest and sincere hope that for those people who have their debt

00:27:04.120 | reduced, that it will enhance their financial opportunity and that they will be able to

00:27:11.720 | stabilize their finances.

00:27:13.280 | I hope that they'll be able to make wise decisions with their money.

00:27:16.680 | I hope they'll use that money that they were granted with great fortune, and I hope that

00:27:21.640 | they'll take it and they'll invest it back into their communities, into their societies.

00:27:26.560 | And I hope that they will be grateful for the forgiveness that was given to them.

00:27:31.960 | I think for many of us, it's hard to think that $10,000 or $20,000 was going to change

00:27:37.200 | much about your overall situation.

00:27:39.400 | It doesn't seem like that much money to most of the listeners of Radical Personal Finance.

00:27:44.340 | But for many people it is.

00:27:45.560 | It is a substantial amount of money and it may provide some very welcome relief for them.

00:27:51.000 | And so I hope that this cancellation helps them and helps them to improve and solidify

00:28:00.400 | their overall situation.

00:28:02.640 | We do want for a strong and stable society, we want to have maximum financial stability

00:28:09.240 | among our fellow citizens.

00:28:11.760 | Now it is clearly a naked political move to do this at this particular time.

00:28:20.700 | And so I think it's fair to simply accept that as being self-evident and not worry too

00:28:27.140 | much about it.

00:28:28.140 | That's what politicians do.

00:28:29.580 | In the modern age, we elect politicians to take money from other people and give it to

00:28:34.200 | the people that we think should have it.

00:28:35.880 | That's basically what we do and we shuffle them all around.

00:28:39.040 | And that has long-term effects on the basic nature of a society and of a government, but

00:28:44.680 | the politicians are simply doing what the politicians need to do.

00:28:47.920 | Politicians are very worried about midterm elections and so this needed to happen now

00:28:52.160 | so that there would be some hint of justification due to the COVID policies.

00:28:57.900 | But it also needed to happen now so that they can potentially get some political breath

00:29:03.780 | prior to midterm elections coming up fairly soon.

00:29:07.380 | On the other hand, this will give the Republicans political fodder to talk about what the Democrats

00:29:14.020 | are doing.

00:29:15.020 | I think very clearly it's causing a lot of people to feel upset if you've done things

00:29:20.180 | like pay off your loans.

00:29:21.380 | I read you two personal text messages that I received from friends of mine within about

00:29:27.100 | 20 minutes of each other.

00:29:29.420 | And one friend says this, "Paid off all of my wife's law school student loans this summer

00:29:34.540 | because I'm a big fat chump lol.

00:29:36.920 | Now that I'll be paying off everyone else's loans too, I'm just grateful that I have a

00:29:39.740 | lot of practice."

00:29:40.740 | It was one friend of mine.

00:29:42.720 | And then another friend wrote to me completely unsolicited and said this, "My mom co-signed

00:29:51.200 | on my sister's useless gender studies degree and it put my mom in a really bad financial

00:29:55.180 | spot.

00:29:56.180 | She ended up paying it off in a lump sum a few months ago to save on interest, dropping

00:29:59.580 | $40,000 or so, and planning on my sister paying her back.

00:30:03.520 | If she waited a few more months, she would have saved $10,000 or $20,000.

00:30:06.880 | I'm not sure if she has Pell grants or not.

00:30:08.980 | My mom is not excited.

00:30:10.300 | Obviously, multiple mistakes were made, but Biden is not helping."

00:30:14.700 | And so that's a reaction from two people.

00:30:17.060 | I'm sure that there are many other people who have done that.

00:30:19.420 | And this is one of the biggest problems with the biggest moral and ethical and even civilizational

00:30:26.060 | problems with government programs.

00:30:29.400 | That people who do the right thing, people who behave responsibly, often feel like they

00:30:34.740 | get screwed.

00:30:36.300 | And people who do the wrong thing, those who behave irresponsibly, who take out too much

00:30:41.220 | in student loan debt, or who don't make alternative decisions, it feels like they get all the

00:30:47.460 | good stuff.

00:30:48.660 | And this is one of my biggest long-term concerns with basically the fabric of our civilization.

00:30:54.900 | For example, so many things we go through.

00:30:58.740 | Let me give one kind of wide-ranging example and we'll come back to politics.

00:31:02.940 | I'm convinced myself that one of the things that sows more discord at the heart of our

00:31:09.420 | society is the welfare state.

00:31:12.580 | The idea that the basic function of government is to take from some people and give to others,

00:31:18.260 | and that politicians get to decide who we take from and who we give to.

00:31:22.220 | And this puts a deep level of distrust in society.

00:31:24.780 | Let me use an example I mentioned in passing.

00:31:27.060 | I recently was talking about immigration, and I mentioned that I myself would prefer

00:31:32.900 | that the government have no immigration laws hindering the flow of non-criminal persons

00:31:38.460 | into the country.

00:31:40.320 | Let me define a couple of terms there for just a moment so you understand my opinion,

00:31:44.500 | and you'll see why the welfare state is important.

00:31:48.360 | The reason I believe this is twofold.

00:31:50.420 | Number one, I have a hard time seeing why any government entity has the right to say

00:31:55.960 | who can and cannot live within its borders.

00:31:59.960 | What gives somebody the moral right, what gives a government official the moral right

00:32:04.900 | to deny someone else the ability to travel on its borders?

00:32:09.020 | I don't see that as a moral right, it's just simply a right of force.

00:32:12.300 | Whoever has the force can make whatever rules they want.

00:32:14.860 | But more importantly, I think government bureaucrats are stupid.

00:32:19.080 | And I can't possibly understand how anybody could think a government bureaucrat could

00:32:23.300 | figure out the appropriate number of people to live in one country, or to admit a certain

00:32:29.780 | number of workers for a certain occupation.

00:32:33.260 | And so we need to issue 100,000 visas for people in this occupation, we need to do this

00:32:39.340 | thing.

00:32:41.020 | Government bureaucrats are stupid.

00:32:42.500 | Central planners are stupid.

00:32:43.780 | They're stupid and they're incompetent, and they're stupid and incompetent whether they're

00:32:47.180 | in the USSR, or whether they're in the CCP, or whether they're in the USA.

00:32:52.580 | Government bureaucrats are stupid and incompetent.

00:32:56.260 | And every government bureaucracy is bloated, expensive, and an absolute waste and drain

00:33:01.620 | on productive people all over.

00:33:03.860 | The US Immigration Department, from personal experience with many friends, is the stupidest

00:33:09.060 | perhaps of all immigration departments in the world.

00:33:12.240 | The most dysfunctional, horrifically performing.

00:33:16.060 | Some people have visas at sale right through.

00:33:18.460 | I recently met some immigrants from France who had come into the United States, and they

00:33:24.340 | had applied for the lottery, they had to get out of France, they didn't feel like it was

00:33:27.140 | safe to live in France anymore.

00:33:28.940 | They applied for the US Green Card lottery, they were granted, and basically a few months

00:33:33.740 | they were given access to the United States and everything worked.

00:33:38.000 | When I compare that to the dozens of stories that I've personally known of people who've

00:33:41.600 | waited years and years and years and years and years and years, while in various forms

00:33:45.620 | of the process, I was absolutely shocked.

00:33:47.940 | I want to give credit where credit is due, it worked for at least one person.

00:33:52.100 | So I don't think that a government agent is smart enough, or in any way informed enough,

00:33:57.260 | to have an idea about how many people, how many workers should be able to come into a

00:34:01.500 | country or how many people should be allowed to come in under a certain kind of visa.

00:34:07.460 | And I trust the wisdom of the crowds and supply and demand far more than I trust a government

00:34:12.540 | bureaucrat.

00:34:13.820 | So does that...

00:34:16.100 | But what's the problem?

00:34:17.140 | Why is anti-immigrant sentiment so high in the United States and in many places around

00:34:21.580 | the world today?

00:34:22.580 | Well, I think at its core, one of the reasons the anti-immigrant sentiment is high is not

00:34:27.420 | because of any kind of overt racism.

00:34:30.660 | It's not because of any kind of xenophobia.

00:34:35.180 | I don't think...

00:34:36.180 | I think the United States of America is, at least in my experience, the least racist place

00:34:40.700 | in the world that I've ever had the privilege of traveling.

00:34:43.300 | There may be other places, but in actuality, it's the least racist place that I have been

00:34:48.660 | to.

00:34:49.660 | So Americans don't generally care about the color of the skin or where their neighbors

00:34:53.500 | came from.

00:34:55.020 | It's not a matter of xenophobia, why the immigrant sentiment is... the anti-immigrant sentiment

00:35:00.100 | is high.

00:35:01.100 | I think it's a matter of the welfare state.

00:35:05.100 | And the idea is, true or not, the idea or the impression that people have is, "Well,

00:35:10.660 | those immigrants come here, they don't pay taxes, they go to the hospital, they get free

00:35:14.660 | hospital care, they get free education, they get free this, free that, free government

00:35:18.740 | money of all kinds, and they take advantage of the system."

00:35:22.300 | So when I ask people who are virulently anti-immigration if they would feel the same way if there were

00:35:28.340 | no welfare state, so far, my experience has been that unanimously no.

00:35:33.740 | People recognize that other people are people and they can do it, but they feel they're

00:35:37.180 | taken advantage of.

00:35:38.340 | They feel like immigrants are a burden on the system and that too much money goes to

00:35:44.620 | them.

00:35:45.620 | Now set aside whether that's actually true or not.

00:35:47.460 | I'm skeptical, but set that aside.

00:35:49.980 | The point is that I think you can have one or the other.

00:35:52.620 | You can either have an open border or you can have a welfare state, but you can't have

00:35:58.620 | both.

00:36:00.020 | Because if you have an open border and you have a welfare state, then you open yourself

00:36:03.620 | up to people taking advantage of those programs excessively of the worst kind and you drive

00:36:08.660 | out the best kind.

00:36:09.660 | So you can have one or the other.

00:36:11.060 | So as long as you can have a welfare state, you have to have strict restrictions on immigration.

00:36:17.300 | So bring that to the modern day and bring it back to student loans.

00:36:21.940 | I think this is one of the big issues that is fundamentally bubbling and causing massive

00:36:27.040 | division among the American population, among the American citizenry.

00:36:31.580 | People are angry about the idea that something is being taken from them and given to someone

00:36:37.260 | else.

00:36:38.260 | They're angry about it.

00:36:40.100 | And this doesn't help.

00:36:41.980 | This sows the seeds more and more.

00:36:44.620 | And again, with those government programs, because governments are seeking to try to

00:36:50.700 | shore up the weakest among us, but because governments can't discriminate based upon

00:36:56.740 | merit and virtue, you wind up with crazy proposals like this particular proposal.

00:37:04.980 | And responsibility is now a vice rather than a virtue.

00:37:09.980 | There are many, many, many, many people who have been given wise counsel regarding college

00:37:16.020 | and college debt.

00:37:17.580 | There are many people who have chosen to not go to college because they didn't feel like

00:37:21.700 | they were ready for college and they didn't see the point of spending money on a program

00:37:26.560 | that was on something that wasn't a good fit for them.

00:37:30.100 | There are many people who chose to go to less expensive colleges because that was what they

00:37:34.780 | could afford.

00:37:36.060 | There were many people, there have been many people who have chosen to go to colleges that

00:37:43.180 | to stretch out their college so they could work their way through, to take a manageable

00:37:46.660 | course load, etc. in order to avoid student debt.

00:37:49.620 | And then there have been many, many graduates who have graduated from school with student

00:37:54.380 | debt and who have worked diligently to pay off their student loans.

00:37:58.080 | And all of those people feel now like they were the chumps.

00:38:02.900 | They feel like they were stupid.

00:38:04.940 | And yet those were the people who behaved responsibly.

00:38:09.660 | And the people who feel really smart right now are those who had student loans, who strung

00:38:15.060 | out their student loans, who didn't pay them back.

00:38:18.740 | And by the way, that was in many cases, it was a very smart thing to do not to pay your

00:38:21.740 | student loans debt but debts back because of deferred payments, because of income-based

00:38:27.220 | repayment plans, because of low interest rates, etc. guaranteed by the federal government.

00:38:30.660 | There are many people though who, the people who feel smart are fundamentally those who

00:38:35.820 | borrowed money.

00:38:37.340 | Now you know of course, right, you know that a certain portion of the people really need

00:38:43.100 | that relief.

00:38:45.260 | And you're glad for those people.

00:38:46.740 | Even if you're gnashing your teeth about this policy, you're glad for those people.

00:38:52.300 | But this kind of decision is basically the expression of the stupidest kind of government

00:39:01.860 | program that you could have.

00:39:03.820 | It's also an expression of stupidity because it's the government, the federal government

00:39:09.660 | itself that seeded the miscalibrations in the college marketplace due to these federal

00:39:20.220 | loan programs in the first place.

00:39:22.380 | So I started with the White House's press release and right in the front part of the

00:39:28.540 | government propaganda piece, the government says, and I quote, "Since 1980, the total

00:39:34.580 | cost of both four-year public and four-year private college has nearly tripled, even after

00:39:39.180 | accounting for inflation."

00:39:40.420 | Well, why might that be?

00:39:42.220 | Well, it has to do with the entire system of student loans and the way that the government

00:39:47.100 | guaranteed the money, student loans not being bankruptable, and then colleges going after

00:39:52.460 | the money intensively.

00:39:56.060 | And so they seeded the crisis, they created the problem in and of themselves, and now

00:40:01.320 | they're offering the solution to the problem.

00:40:03.640 | But what's the other solution with the problem?

00:40:05.660 | Well, an estimate by the Wharton School says that the total cost of this particular program

00:40:13.260 | will be somewhere between $305 billion and $980 billion.

00:40:17.660 | Clearly a large range, but this right here, forgiving debt in a time of significant inflation,

00:40:25.100 | this right here will produce a dramatic economic boost that will drive inflation even more.

00:40:33.300 | Will it be noticeable or not?

00:40:34.540 | I don't know.

00:40:35.540 | Even if it's a trillion dollars, is that noticeable?

00:40:38.460 | Time will tell.

00:40:39.460 | But having money forgiven frees up now that money for other things, and it's going to

00:40:44.140 | create its own problems.

00:40:45.740 | I'm reminded of the classic story that we love so much to tell.

00:40:50.020 | I think it's true.

00:40:51.860 | It may be just apocryphal at this point in time, but I believe it's true of when the

00:40:56.300 | Indian government—it's the classic story of unintended consequences.

00:41:02.500 | The story goes that there was a town in India, a city in India somewhere, that had too many

00:41:07.820 | cobras, the snakes, the biting snakes.

00:41:11.500 | They decided that they would offer a reward to people who would go out and bring cobras

00:41:18.180 | in for killing cobras so they could reduce the cobra population.

00:41:23.060 | They set a reward amount, making up numbers, $50 per cobra to bring people in, and people

00:41:30.020 | bring the cobras in.

00:41:31.020 | Well, people brought cobras in, the government paid the money, paid the money, paid the money,

00:41:34.540 | but they realized that, "Wait a second.

00:41:35.900 | There are a lot of cobras being brought in."

00:41:38.260 | And what they quickly came to understand was that people had seen an opportunity to make

00:41:43.340 | some free money by raising cobras, and so they were actually breeding cobras and creating

00:41:47.820 | more cobras so that they could go and get free money.

00:41:51.300 | Well, of course, the government politicians reacted and said, "Well, this can't work,"

00:41:55.100 | and so they canceled the whole program.

00:41:57.100 | So now you had people who were breeding cobras.

00:41:59.920 | What do you think they did with all those cobras?

00:42:02.180 | Set them loose on the street, and now after the well-intentioned program, you wind up

00:42:06.580 | with a much higher cobra population.

00:42:09.740 | So again, I think it's probably true, but I've never verified it.

00:42:13.880 | So regardless of whether it's a true story or not, it drives the point.

00:42:19.940 | You can easily understand how that would happen because you have now, because it flies.

00:42:25.700 | The story illustrates what we know of as incentives, incentives to behavior.

00:42:29.920 | So the government creates a program and says, "Everyone needs to go to college," and after

00:42:34.600 | World War II, figuring out how do we get people in college and improve the productivity of

00:42:38.740 | our workforce, we come out with the GI Bill, and then later we start to see the growth

00:42:45.520 | of people going to college.

00:42:48.040 | So then you have the federal student loan program.

00:42:50.000 | You have lots and lots of new colleges created.

00:42:53.000 | Why are the new colleges created?

00:42:54.680 | Because now money is easy to get.

00:42:56.400 | Why is the money easy to get?

00:42:58.040 | Because the government says, "We'll guarantee the loans for you, and your students can't

00:43:02.600 | bankrupt their way out of it."

00:43:04.140 | So you create massive new numbers of college, massive levels of college enrollment.

00:43:11.000 | Some of those colleges, very high-priced, and in many cases flat-out abusive in terms

00:43:17.700 | of their recruiting policies, et cetera.

00:43:21.180 | You have virtually no obstacles to young people signing their life away, borrowing tons of

00:43:26.300 | money.

00:43:27.300 | It's as simple as a signature for most of us.

00:43:29.560 | And so you have then the colleges increasing tuition commensurate with that.

00:43:34.180 | And then you have this incredible civilizational push saying that everybody should go to college.

00:43:40.020 | Clearly false, as I have detailed in other discussions.

00:43:44.140 | Most people are not suited for the academic life of college.

00:43:47.540 | And so then you have people go to college, many of them drop out.

00:43:51.140 | People are very hurt.

00:43:52.140 | They don't have a college degree, but now they have debt.

00:43:54.100 | And then the whole situation goes in.

00:43:55.180 | So then what does the government come along?

00:43:56.580 | "Well, we're going to come along and we're going to cancel student loans."

00:43:59.340 | It's just one dumb policy after another, and a dumb policy leading to another dumb policy.

00:44:04.060 | And that's what happens when you have this kind of system, when people are relieved of

00:44:09.420 | consequences for their choices.

00:44:12.060 | If lenders were not guaranteed by the federal government laws that student loans are not

00:44:18.700 | bankruptable, then bankruptcy would have wiped out so many of the student loans, the most

00:44:23.380 | egregious situations.

00:44:24.380 | And because they're not bankruptable, that hasn't solved it.

00:44:27.420 | And bankruptcy is a much better policy for getting rid of debt, of toxic debt, because

00:44:36.260 | bankruptcy trains the lender and the borrower to be more careful and more discerning.

00:44:42.420 | And so it really actually hurts lenders.

00:44:45.860 | And so at its core, this is a disaster.

00:44:48.980 | Now hopefully it's not a huge disaster.

00:44:50.780 | It's just one thing among many, but it's a disaster because it sows these seeds.

00:44:55.260 | And I'll give you an example from my own life of how this affects people.

00:45:01.260 | Anybody who's listened to more than a few of my podcasts knows that I'm not, very few

00:45:06.300 | people would classify me as an unopinionated guy.

00:45:09.140 | I have my convictions, I have my opinions, and I do my best to be clear on them and then

00:45:13.060 | to try my best to live in accordance with them, imperfectly as we all do, but I try

00:45:17.780 | to be a fairly convictional guy.

00:45:20.780 | When I was younger, I believed very strongly in the idea of personal responsibility, taking

00:45:28.140 | care of yourself, taking care of yourself and not being a burden on the system.

00:45:34.020 | I believed very strongly in being a kind of person who was a producer and a contributor

00:45:39.300 | rather than a taker.

00:45:41.100 | I believed strongly that it was morally right for me to take care of myself.

00:45:47.500 | And so the practical expression of this was that in 2008, when I was laid off from a job

00:45:56.740 | in 2008, but I myself, even though I was laid off from a job and a layoff and I would have

00:46:02.060 | qualified for unemployment payments, I thought, "Well, I don't need the money.

00:46:06.700 | I have money saved.

00:46:07.700 | I didn't have any debt.

00:46:08.700 | I have money saved.

00:46:09.700 | I don't need the money and I don't want to be the kind of guy who takes a government

00:46:13.300 | handout."

00:46:14.300 | I actually am genuinely worried about ever becoming the kind of guy who takes a government

00:46:17.980 | handout because I'm worried about what that would do to my character.

00:46:20.180 | I don't know that I'm a strong enough person to resist the weakness of my character if

00:46:25.940 | I wound up becoming the kind of guy who would take a government handout.

00:46:28.700 | So I said, "I'm not going to take it."

00:46:30.380 | And so I didn't file for unemployment.

00:46:32.820 | I spent some time, spent my own money, later wound up getting another job.

00:46:37.620 | Four years later, I was doing financial planning and I'm watching all of these people who were

00:46:42.940 | getting extended unemployment payments under the 2008, all of the response to the 2008-2009

00:46:53.860 | financial crisis.

00:46:55.100 | And I vividly remember I was sitting at somebody's apartment in Juneau Beach, Juneau Beach, Florida,

00:47:00.660 | beautiful little beach town.

00:47:02.180 | And I was meeting with this lady who had moved down from New York and she had gotten laid

00:47:06.780 | off a long time earlier.

00:47:10.540 | And I'm sitting there doing financial planning and she's going to the beach every day, literally

00:47:13.660 | going to the beach every day, and she's enjoying the extended unemployment.

00:47:17.380 | And she had milked her unemployment payments until the very last end of the number.

00:47:24.060 | I forget what it was, 52 weeks or something, all of the extensions.

00:47:27.860 | She's like, "Yeah, my unemployment is going to run out in two months so I'm going to have

00:47:31.620 | to figure out what I'm going to do and probably start looking for a job sometime soon."

00:47:37.580 | And I thought to myself, "Joshua, you schmuck.

00:47:40.020 | What's wrong with you?

00:47:41.020 | You chump.

00:47:42.580 | Why didn't you take the money?

00:47:45.220 | What's wrong with you?

00:47:48.860 | You are a chump.

00:47:50.420 | What did your little kind of moral crusade accomplish for anybody?

00:47:54.780 | All it did was screw you.

00:47:57.540 | You would have been better off taking unemployment, milking it as long as possible, substituting

00:48:02.100 | with your own savings, do whatever is necessary to have the minimum action necessary to file

00:48:06.580 | the forms and move on.

00:48:10.020 | And take the money and do something fun, right?

00:48:11.740 | Go travel and go do something interesting."

00:48:13.380 | And I felt like such a chump.

00:48:15.420 | And I promised myself from then on, "I'm never going to do that again.

00:48:19.260 | I'm just going to take the money."

00:48:21.140 | And so I've been self-employed and a business owner since then so I've never had the opportunity

00:48:26.100 | to get unemployment and file for it.

00:48:28.300 | But I've done podcasts here on Radical Personal Finance about how to get laid off from your

00:48:32.260 | job so you get unemployment insurance, unemployment payments.

00:48:35.780 | And then also, of course, there is the factor that I understood finally that it was just

00:48:40.620 | an insurance program and if you get it laid off, take it.

00:48:44.220 | But the point is that it changed me.

00:48:46.660 | And I really feel guilty about it because I still believe in the power of self-reliance.

00:48:50.460 | I still actually worry that if I ever got laid off and had a legitimate unemployment

00:48:58.140 | claim that if I started to get free government money or free insurer money, then it would

00:49:04.980 | harm my character.

00:49:05.980 | So I worry about it.

00:49:07.780 | But since that time when I realized I was a chump, I've told people, "Take all the money

00:49:12.260 | you can get, right?

00:49:13.260 | They're giving it out to everyone else.

00:49:14.260 | Take all the money you can get."

00:49:15.860 | That is a cancer at the heart of society.

00:49:19.820 | But it's a major – hypocrisy is not the right word – discontinuity in my opinions.

00:49:27.660 | But basically, I look at it and many people do.

00:49:29.820 | You're like, "Burn it all down, right?

00:49:31.820 | If we're all going to do this, then let's just burn it all down.

00:49:34.220 | Screw the concept of self-reliance and taking care of things.

00:49:37.500 | Let's just all get our money and, hey, bring the end on faster and then we'll figure

00:49:41.820 | out what's next."

00:49:43.420 | And that's destructive.

00:49:44.580 | And yet millions – many people, I would guess – lots of people – I don't know

00:49:48.740 | the number – lots of people are looking at this news and they're feeling the exact

00:49:52.580 | same thing.

00:49:53.820 | And that's – I'm really – I think that's really dangerous for the American psyche because

00:49:58.500 | the American citizenry is one that has been traditionally built upon these concepts of

00:50:04.260 | self-reliance, upon the concepts of independence, on the concepts of taking care of yourself

00:50:09.500 | and of other people.

00:50:11.620 | Oftentimes Europeans look on and they wonder, "Why doesn't the United States have as

00:50:16.020 | developed a welfare state as we do?

00:50:18.660 | What's wrong with that, right?

00:50:19.660 | Here's the United States, the only country in – the only advanced developed country

00:50:22.460 | in the world that doesn't have government healthcare, etc."

00:50:25.100 | Well, it's because this is a fundamental part of the fabric of the United States.

00:50:29.680 | And so – but that fabric is being destroyed.

00:50:32.300 | That fabric is being dismantled.

00:50:34.860 | And so I don't think it's a tipping point.

00:50:38.020 | I don't think it's the thing any more than the bush bucks of sending out money or

00:50:43.580 | cash for clunkers or any of these other boneheaded programs that they come up with.

00:50:48.540 | They're not the thing that leads, but it's all just – it's death by a thousand cuts.

00:50:53.300 | It's kind of a continual thing.

00:50:58.540 | And it fundamentally alters people.

00:51:01.420 | When you recognize that the government's going to send you stimulus money during a

00:51:04.620 | pandemic and you recognize that you can get – file for free programs or free money,

00:51:10.780 | you feel like a chump if you don't take advantage of it.

00:51:13.940 | And so that changes the culture.

00:51:15.660 | And it changes the culture over generations and it has a long-term impact.

00:51:21.740 | What do you do about it?

00:51:22.740 | There's nothing you can do about it.

00:51:25.180 | If you want to be free out of it, you could do what I've done, which is one of the reasons

00:51:29.860 | why I pursued what I did with the whole internationalization stuff.

00:51:35.700 | I think it's important to guard your own character.

00:51:38.700 | I think it's important to recognize that relying on this stuff is really dangerous.

00:51:45.100 | It makes you a slave.

00:51:46.540 | Relying on government money makes you a slave.

00:51:49.220 | I looked at – when the PPP program came out during the pandemic, I looked at it and

00:51:54.900 | I was like, "You know what?

00:51:56.300 | I should get some of this money."

00:51:57.700 | Again, I have this long, festering wound from 2008, 15 years now.

00:52:01.700 | I'm like, "I just – I never get any free government money.

00:52:04.460 | How can I get some free government money?"

00:52:05.900 | And like, "Here's a program that seems tailor-made for me."

00:52:08.900 | But I looked at it and I said, "I'm not getting in bed with the government."

00:52:13.220 | So it has to almost be a convictional thing.

00:52:14.740 | Like, "I don't want those people in my life."

00:52:17.260 | I'll try to control my speech a little more.

00:52:19.420 | "I don't want those people in my life."

00:52:21.140 | And it's the same thing with all the government money, right?

00:52:23.300 | The government money, all of the Title IX money is made that – it's destroyed the

00:52:28.620 | university scene.

00:52:29.620 | It's made that all the colleges are beholden to the government because they take government

00:52:34.260 | money.

00:52:35.260 | So I think that you can strengthen yourself and say, "I'm not taking your money.

00:52:39.700 | I'm taking – I'm not going to take your money.

00:52:41.940 | Therefore, I'm not going to be accountable to you.

00:52:44.340 | I'm not going to have to follow your rules.

00:52:45.820 | I'm going to do what I think is right."

00:52:48.880 | So time will tell.

00:52:51.100 | Time will tell.

00:52:52.100 | It's not something that is unifying.

00:52:54.420 | I guess the last point I would make is let's talk about a couple of practical effects.

00:52:59.260 | One of the things that bothers me so much about this is it's extremely classist.

00:53:06.300 | Who benefits from this particular government action?

00:53:12.540 | Who benefits?

00:53:13.540 | Well, people who have student loan debt.

00:53:16.220 | Who are the people who have student loan debt?

00:53:19.740 | They are people who have gone out and gotten accepted to a college and started to go to

00:53:24.860 | that college and didn't pay for it fully out of their own pocket.

00:53:29.780 | Whether they graduated or not, they're people who did that.

00:53:32.060 | So what that means is you have a certain class of person that has student loans.

00:53:38.980 | It's either someone who is accepted to college or somebody who has a college education.

00:53:44.540 | That is the class of person.

00:53:46.420 | Now who is paying for the money?

00:53:50.100 | It's a government program, so it's coming out of taxpayer dollars, the general fund.

00:53:55.460 | Of course, those taxpayer dollars are fundamentally provided primarily by the top 5 to 10% of

00:54:02.620 | wealthy earners, income earners in the United States who pay most of the taxes.

00:54:07.860 | So you could argue that it's a classist thing where you're taking money from the richest

00:54:12.800 | people and you're giving it to basically the middle class college educated people.

00:54:17.140 | The problem is the average citizen in the United States doesn't see himself as a taker.

00:54:23.100 | The average citizen in the United States sees himself as contributing.

00:54:26.580 | Even if it's a mere, you know, two cents, he still sees himself, "I pay my taxes.

00:54:30.500 | I file my tax returns."

00:54:32.420 | Remember that most people don't conceive of how much money they pay in taxes.

00:54:37.500 | They don't know where to find it even on the tax form.

00:54:40.240 | And so this means that the lower class people, not college educated, not going to college,

00:54:48.360 | are now feeling like money is being taken from us and our taxes.

00:54:52.620 | We're good people.

00:54:53.620 | We pay our taxes and being used to pay for the middle class college elite.

00:54:58.980 | And there's also a very strong correlation that Democratic voters tend to be college

00:55:06.020 | educated people predominantly, while Republican voters vary more, but more non-college educated

00:55:22.820 | people with student loans to be progressive Democrats, to be liberals.

00:55:27.720 | And so you wind up with this class competition.

00:55:30.060 | And at its core, I think this is one of the most destructive long-term trends.

00:55:35.660 | Why do we have people bemoan and wail and moan and are upset about the division that

00:55:42.460 | we have in the American population?

00:55:45.140 | What causes it?

00:55:46.340 | Things like this, right?

00:55:47.340 | This constant class distinction.

00:55:49.780 | Class distinctions on any basis, but it's a continual thing.

00:55:56.980 | And it just kind of goes on.

00:55:59.500 | The cancer goes deeper, the cancer goes deeper, the cancer goes deeper.

00:56:02.980 | And more and more people see themselves as divided people across the board.

00:56:09.020 | One of the things that bothers me the most, the Ten Commandments, God said, "Thou shalt

00:56:13.620 | not covet."

00:56:14.900 | "Thou shalt not covet."

00:56:17.340 | What is coveting?

00:56:18.340 | Coveting means wanting desperately something that someone else has.

00:56:23.400 | And there's an implication that you want it to the point where you just go out and take

00:56:27.100 | it unjustly.

00:56:29.900 | That's the basic concept of covetousness.

00:56:33.460 | What is unjustly?

00:56:34.460 | Well, it means you didn't earn it for yourself.

00:56:35.860 | You want your neighbor's wife, so you go and you take your neighbor's wife.

00:56:39.600 | You want your neighbor's money, so you go and you take your neighbor's money.

00:56:42.780 | Well, modern politics, basically redistributional politics, has rewarded broad-scale covetousness.

00:56:52.660 | And those who engage in it the most feel very good about it, right?

00:56:56.300 | They feel good because we're going to take from those people and we're giving to give

00:56:59.020 | to these people over here.

00:57:01.580 | But covetousness, just like any sin, covetousness is a cancer, where the longer it goes, the

00:57:07.140 | worse it gets.

00:57:08.140 | The worse it gets, the more it destroys the host.

00:57:09.980 | And so you see that in society.

00:57:11.980 | Go and read a book like Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America, and you'll see an extraordinarily

00:57:20.100 | different country than what we have today.

00:57:23.100 | And you say, "What was different about 1850 versus 2022?

00:57:27.900 | What was different?

00:57:30.700 | Why?"

00:57:31.700 | And again, we need to be cautious against a golden era fallacy.

00:57:36.180 | Things were not necessarily always better.

00:57:38.540 | Politics have always been vicious, etc.

00:57:41.100 | But I think at its core, one of the things that is a cancer in our society is this concept

00:57:47.260 | of covetousness, this concept of continually, "I'm going to take from them, give to those

00:57:52.060 | people.

00:57:53.060 | And I want political power so I can decide who gets taken from and who gets given to."

00:57:57.360 | And it's just a battle that goes on and on and on and on.

00:58:00.420 | So that was more negative than I intended.

00:58:03.420 | At its core, I don't think this is something that needs to be.

00:58:06.740 | It's just one more factor.

00:58:08.020 | It's the same thing.

00:58:09.020 | Let me close with just a more neutral observation.

00:58:13.560 | How does this end?

00:58:14.700 | Where do we wind up?

00:58:16.700 | I'm convinced, before I go there, I should make two more points because they're important

00:58:22.900 | and worth thinking about.

00:58:25.780 | Why is student loan debt the debt that should be forgiven versus any other debt?

00:58:30.660 | This has bothered me for years.

00:58:34.600 | If you really want to relieve people's debt, why not pay off their cars?

00:58:41.380 | If you really want to relieve poor people's obligations, why not pay off their credit

00:58:45.380 | cards?

00:58:47.220 | Why is student loan debt the debt that's being canceled?

00:58:50.300 | Now, there are a couple of obvious answers.

00:58:52.540 | Number one, the federal government is involved in student loan lending.

00:58:55.900 | So in terms of administering the cancellation of a debt, then obviously it's easier for

00:59:02.300 | the Department of Education to administer the cancellation of the repayment of federally

00:59:07.580 | guaranteed student loans than it is to pay off credit cards.

00:59:13.860 | But that's not truly the ultimate obstacle.

00:59:15.900 | Obviously, as we've seen with the stimulus money, they can just put money right in your

00:59:19.940 | bank account.

00:59:21.340 | So why?

00:59:22.780 | Why not just put money right in the bank account and say, "We're going to give everybody $10,000"?

00:59:29.660 | The other obvious answer is, "Well, we need smart people to go to college."

00:59:35.420 | I think this is clearly what most people would say.

00:59:37.500 | It's like, "Well, we want to reward people who've gone to college and have developed

00:59:40.660 | their education and who've enhanced themselves.

00:59:43.980 | We want an educated workforce."

00:59:47.420 | And again, I don't think that that fits the basic idea of not creating classism, because

00:59:56.220 | the kinds of people who can go to college and the kinds of people who can get a college

00:59:58.900 | degree are the smartest people.

01:00:01.500 | And in theory, that college degree should be paying off.

01:00:03.580 | There's one of the memes that's going around the internet right now that says, "If your

01:00:06.860 | college degree isn't good enough for you to pay it off, then why should I have to pay

01:00:10.100 | it off?

01:00:11.100 | Why is it good enough for me to pay it off?"

01:00:15.740 | So it seems strange to me that we would engage in paying off student loans because people

01:00:22.220 | who have gone to college are, by definition of our day, the most privileged people.

01:00:27.460 | Why?

01:00:28.460 | Why not pay off other forms of debt?

01:00:30.940 | Why not just send out—if we're going to do a stimulus, why not just send $10,000 to

01:00:34.220 | everybody and tell everyone to pay down their debt?

01:00:36.180 | Wouldn't that be better?

01:00:37.180 | And I think you see that these programs, like, I don't—to me it seems obvious.

01:00:42.540 | Either—why not—or—I'm stammering because I'm not trying to go too deeply into negative

01:00:53.460 | politics, but it's just—it's such a naked political gambit.

01:00:58.060 | It doesn't have a deep sense.

01:00:59.860 | If you want to—if you want to relieve the poorest among us, then relieve them directly.

01:01:07.580 | This is why perhaps one of the best programs has been the earned income credit on the taxes.

01:01:13.540 | It's a direct way of giving people who are working, doing things virtuous, working, but

01:01:18.980 | who aren't earning very much, direct money.

01:01:21.380 | The earned income tax credit has been a wonderful tax credit.

01:01:24.460 | So if you're going to practice redistributionist politics, why not practice it in a way that's

01:01:29.700 | not related to student loans and student debt?

01:01:32.980 | Why are we sending money to the smartest people who were able to successfully get into college

01:01:39.180 | and the people who society calls the most privileged?

01:01:42.140 | It doesn't make sense.

01:01:44.540 | My final point is this.

01:01:45.680 | If you take the logic of why we want to send money to people who have a student loan instead

01:01:52.300 | of other classes of people, if you take it to its extension, I think you're going to

01:01:55.820 | see why ultimately government colleges are going to be tuition-free for everybody.

01:02:02.140 | And I have no idea, I'm just making up a number, but I would say 10 years, 15 years maybe,

01:02:07.140 | who knows?

01:02:08.140 | And again, I'm totally making it up, I have no logical argument to support that number.

01:02:11.120 | But here's why, and I read it to you in the White House's press release.

01:02:17.320 | One of the other initiatives that the Biden press release writer said here, and I quote,

01:02:27.880 | "We want to protect future students and taxpayers by reducing the cost of college and holding

01:02:32.080 | schools accountable when they hike up prices," and skipping down, "to further reduce the

01:02:36.860 | cost of college, the president will continue to fight to double the maximum Pell Grant

01:02:41.240 | and make community college free."

01:02:44.800 | So that's the current arena, the current frontier of this battle, is to make community

01:02:51.200 | college free.

01:02:52.960 | So should community college be free or not?

01:02:55.480 | Well, I think, myself, my opinion is, yeah, either community college should be free or

01:03:02.440 | we should end the government school system.

01:03:04.900 | And since there's only a tiny fringe minority of people who think that ending the government

01:03:09.600 | school system is actually a good idea, then the most likely answer is make community college

01:03:18.240 | free and make four-year colleges free and make every other college free all the way

01:03:24.400 | through.

01:03:25.400 | And to me, this seems like where we're most likely to end up practically in the United

01:03:30.280 | States.

01:03:31.280 | Number one, there's ample historic precedent for this.

01:03:36.260 | There's ample precedent all across Europe, higher education institutions are tuition-free,

01:03:45.440 | widely available.

01:03:46.440 | And in fact, in many European countries, those universities are tuition-free to anybody who

01:03:52.960 | can apply, have the appropriate academic credentials to be admitted, and can come from anywhere

01:03:59.160 | in the world.

01:04:00.900 | For years, I've followed the most famous as Germany, that Germany will allow any international

01:04:06.640 | student who can come, have appropriate academic qualifications, test scores, et cetera, to

01:04:11.800 | come and attend their universities tuition-free.

01:04:14.120 | There are several Scandinavian countries, I mean, many European countries offer this.

01:04:20.080 | The question is whether the instruction is done in English or whether it's in a local

01:04:23.440 | language.

01:04:24.440 | So often, the language barrier can often be substantial for people who are not from that

01:04:30.080 | region to go to a school, unless they offer more English instruction.

01:04:35.040 | But this is the trend.

01:04:36.920 | And I think this is probably where we wind up in the United States as well.

01:04:40.640 | I don't see any moral difference or any real, any like philosophical difference between

01:04:48.400 | having government school paid for from K through 12 versus government school paid for from

01:04:53.760 | 13 to 16, or from 13 to 18.

01:04:57.280 | What's the difference at its core?

01:04:59.480 | There's, as I see it, there's no real difference.

01:05:03.160 | So eventually, it seems to me likely that we'll wind up with tuition-free government

01:05:08.680 | universities, and then we'll wind up with a, the continuation of private universities

01:05:15.560 | competing in the private market for students where there were tuition paid programs.

01:05:20.240 | And is that a bad thing?

01:05:21.240 | I don't think so.

01:05:22.240 | I mean, you know, my libertarian utopia doesn't exist.

01:05:26.880 | It's never going to exist in my lifetime.

01:05:28.940 | So having tuition-free universities, fine, you know, fine.

01:05:32.360 | It's just, it's better than, better than incentivizing people for taking out debt than

01:05:36.920 | paying it off, probably.

01:05:38.960 | And again, if we're going to have government K through 12, then why not government 13 to

01:05:43.560 | 16?

01:05:44.560 | I think the good thing about that kind of university system is that it can eliminate

01:05:50.600 | some of the people going to college who shouldn't go to college.

01:05:55.600 | Because entry into those universities, into government, into free government, tuition-free

01:06:01.240 | government universities is screened based on academic qualification, although I have

01:06:09.960 | not reviewed the numbers on this.

01:06:11.400 | So I'm making an opinion that's unsupported by data here.

01:06:14.680 | I'm expressing an observation or an opinion that's unsupported by data.

01:06:18.240 | I think that means that there's more of a likelihood of the people being in those university

01:06:23.440 | classes who should be there.

01:06:25.980 | One of the biggest problems of the American college system has been the, because of all

01:06:33.680 | the free money, there have been schools that have dramatically lowered entrance requirements

01:06:40.480 | and basically let anybody in.

01:06:42.640 | And those are the people who've been the most hurt by it.

01:06:45.560 | They're encouraged to go to college.

01:06:47.200 | They can't get into a good college, and so they wind up going to a next door college

01:06:52.760 | that has high tuition.

01:06:54.120 | They borrow money for it.

01:06:55.680 | They get two years into college.

01:06:57.340 | They can't hack it.

01:06:58.400 | They can't cut it for the reasons I talked about in an episode a couple months ago of

01:07:02.160 | who should go to college.

01:07:03.160 | They can't cut it.

01:07:04.160 | They're not smart enough.

01:07:05.160 | They don't read well enough.

01:07:06.160 | It just doesn't click with them.

01:07:07.760 | They're not good at sitting in classes and producing what the teachers want.

01:07:10.920 | They discover it's not for them.

01:07:12.720 | They leave without a college degree but heavily saddled in debt.

01:07:16.280 | Those are the people who have been very deeply hurt by the current system in the United States.

01:07:21.100 | So if you change that system and you eliminate the tuition requirements, at least for government

01:07:25.440 | universities, and you screen people based upon academic qualifications, then the people

01:07:32.060 | who get in are likely to be suited for the academic life.

01:07:37.240 | They're likely to be more successful in it.

01:07:39.480 | And then if they're not and they drop out two years later, at least they're not harmed

01:07:43.680 | so substantially by it.

01:07:45.080 | They had to pass the rigorous academic entry exams and then they're not harmed by it.

01:07:51.220 | So I hope that that just caused you to think.

01:07:54.660 | Again, who knows where we wind up?

01:07:56.140 | I don't know.

01:07:57.140 | But again, I see this as a dramatic philosophical discontinuity.

01:08:05.740 | And I think that human beings, being their core logical beings, who are able to understand

01:08:13.820 | and see logic, I think that if there's a discontinuity, eventually people will go to their actual

01:08:23.860 | beliefs.

01:08:24.860 | They'll wind up there.

01:08:26.100 | And so to me it just hasn't made sense for years why there should be a fundamental distinction

01:08:32.340 | between government schools for K-12 and government schools for 13-16.

01:08:37.940 | There's ample precedent from countries all around the world, where even very high levels

01:08:43.220 | of education...

01:08:44.220 | I worked with a doctor from Mexico one time who was providing some eye care for me.

01:08:53.340 | And this doctor, she said, she told me she had $50 a semester cost to go to medical school

01:09:00.100 | in Mexico.

01:09:02.340 | And so there's precedent all around the world for even the highest levels of universities

01:09:09.020 | to be tuition free.

01:09:10.140 | But that doesn't exist in the United States.

01:09:12.060 | And since I don't expect there to be any kind of dramatic move, at least not now, not for

01:09:17.740 | a long time, I don't expect there to be a dramatic move of people saying, "Let's get

01:09:20.860 | rid of government schools," then I think it's more likely we go in this direction.

01:09:24.980 | So time will tell.

01:09:26.820 | In the meantime, what do you do?

01:09:29.720 | At its core, even though you feel like a chump, I think try to take... if you paid your loans,

01:09:37.540 | try to appreciate the fact that you proved to yourself that you were the kind of person

01:09:42.420 | who could borrow money and repay it successfully.

01:09:45.620 | That shows the kind of person you are, and appreciate that.

01:09:49.020 | If you are having some of your debts relieved and having some of your student loans reduced,

01:09:55.180 | good for you.

01:09:56.180 | Take the money and go and use it to increase your family stability, invest it in your community,

01:10:04.800 | do something with it.

01:10:06.260 | That's wonderful.

01:10:07.260 | I'm grateful for your good fortune.

01:10:09.380 | But in the future, both of those people, both of you, whichever one of those you are, you

01:10:15.740 | need to still continue to plan, because things are going to change rapidly in the coming

01:10:20.620 | decades.

01:10:22.220 | And at its core, the character qualities and virtues of being self-reliant, caring for

01:10:31.100 | yourself, planning ahead, of being prudent, those are the things that truly will ultimately

01:10:36.920 | pay off.

01:10:38.180 | And you want to develop those character qualities.

01:10:40.140 | Otherwise, you're at the mercy of a broken political system.

01:10:46.380 | So that's what you need to know about the current wave of legislation, the current news.

01:10:52.180 | Hope that's helpful for you, and I'll be back with you very soon.

01:10:55.420 | The holidays start here at Ralph's with a variety of options to celebrate traditions

01:10:59.700 | old and new.

01:11:00.940 | Whether you're making a traditional roasted turkey or spicy turkey tacos, your go-to shrimp

01:11:06.220 | cocktail, or your first Cajun risotto, Ralph's has all the freshest ingredients to embrace

01:11:11.840 | your traditions.

01:11:12.840 | Ralph's.

01:11:13.840 | Fresh for Everyone.

01:11:14.840 | We've locked in low prices to help you save big store-wide.

01:11:18.420 | Look for the locked in low prices tags and enjoy extra savings throughout the store.

01:11:22.460 | Ralph's.

01:11:23.460 | Fresh for Everyone.

2022-08-25_Student_Loan_Debt_Cancelation