Ep. 214: Quiet Quitting | Deep Questions With Cal Newport

00:00:00.000 | quiet quitting.

00:00:02.000 | I then went relatively deep on this topic over the weekend for a

00:00:07.800 | writing project.

00:00:09.200 | Something I was writing is for a book chapter for my slow productivity

00:00:11.300 | book.

00:00:11.700 | I went deep on this topic and did some research about where it started

00:00:16.500 | from and how it's being covered and what it's really all about.

00:00:19.200 | So I figured this was a good excuse today's episode to actually talk

00:00:22.900 | about quiet quitting.

00:00:25.500 | I'm Cal Newport and this is Deep Questions, episode 214.

00:00:41.800 | If you're new, this is the show where I answer questions from my

00:00:50.600 | audience about both the theory and practice of living and working

00:00:55.700 | deeply.

00:00:56.900 | I'm joined here as always in my Deep Work HQ by my producer, Jesse.

00:01:04.500 | Jesse, I don't know if you noticed the restaurant that we are above,

00:01:11.000 | or I should say were above, is out of business.

00:01:14.400 | Republic?

00:01:15.900 | Republic is shut down.

00:01:16.800 | What happened?

00:01:18.700 | Look, I don't want to say it's our fault.

00:01:21.100 | I'm just looking at the timeline.

00:01:23.000 | Successful restaurant.

00:01:25.000 | We move in upstairs.

00:01:26.800 | Restaurant closes.

00:01:28.600 | So I don't know.

00:01:29.100 | Maybe it's something we're doing.

00:01:30.100 | No, I think it was just pandemic, you know, they never really recovered.

00:01:34.800 | It's a big place.

00:01:36.000 | We went in there once.

00:01:36.900 | It kind of had an awkward layout.

00:01:38.500 | Yeah, it's a weird space, but I've been there for a long time, maybe

00:01:43.800 | five, six years, but they never came.

00:01:47.600 | I mean, after the pandemic, they were shut down for a while.

00:01:50.100 | And then when they came back, they never went all in.

00:01:52.500 | You see, remember the weird hours, like they weren't doing lunches.

00:01:55.800 | They were closing at nine.

00:01:57.000 | They were closed on Monday and Tuesday.

00:01:58.600 | So it's hard to get help.

00:01:59.700 | It's hard to get help.

00:02:00.600 | It's part of a restaurant group here in DC, the Black Group, and I think

00:02:04.200 | they only had so much capital and they're focusing it on other places.

00:02:09.400 | That's too bad.

00:02:10.300 | Yeah, but I was brainstorming.

00:02:12.500 | So like, here's the thought experiment.

00:02:13.900 | I'll get your thoughts.

00:02:15.700 | Imagine we had a show that was slightly bigger than ours.

00:02:18.300 | Let's say a Huberman, Fridman style show that would generate enough

00:02:23.500 | revenue that you could cover without breaking a sweat, the lease

00:02:28.800 | payment on that space.

00:02:29.800 | All right.

00:02:30.600 | So let's say we're in that situation.

00:02:31.900 | Like we, this is the space below us.

00:02:33.600 | It's this big, nice space.

00:02:34.500 | We need to take it over.

00:02:36.000 | What would we do with that space?

00:02:37.900 | What would you do, Jesse?

00:02:39.800 | What do you think we should do?

00:02:40.800 | I'd probably start bartending and feeding you drinks.

00:02:43.600 | You would just be bartending during the show.

00:02:46.200 | You are a really good bartender.

00:02:48.600 | That could be.

00:02:49.200 | So your recommendation, so Jesse's recommendation, and the people at

00:02:53.500 | Tacoma Park would appreciate this, would be to turn that space into a

00:02:56.300 | private bar that basically just served elaborate drinks to a single

00:03:02.100 | podcaster.

00:03:02.800 | Yeah, I don't know what to do with that space.

00:03:05.800 | I mean, hopefully another restaurant or bar comes in, I suppose.

00:03:08.900 | But yeah, sad.

00:03:12.100 | Yeah, sad.

00:03:13.700 | I should say, speaking of Jesse, if you have not been checking out the

00:03:16.800 | YouTube channel that goes with this show, you should.

00:03:20.700 | He's been doing some really interesting things with the videos.

00:03:23.400 | So if you look at videos of the full episodes now, there's a nice

00:03:28.900 | introduction.

00:03:29.500 | There's also a pardon the interruption style ticker on the side of the

00:03:34.500 | screen.

00:03:34.900 | So you can see what questions are coming up and where I am in the

00:03:37.100 | questions from the question blocks.

00:03:38.300 | I think that's nice.

00:03:39.000 | Some more editing is happening with the video clip.

00:03:42.500 | So if you're an audio only listener, you might want to check out what

00:03:47.300 | this show looks like.

00:03:48.200 | And you can see that at youtube.com/CalNewportMedia.

00:03:52.400 | All right, so I'm looking at our show notes here.

00:03:56.600 | We got two good blocks of questions.

00:04:00.500 | Looks like later on, I'm also going to introduce a case study, trying to

00:04:04.700 | do more of those, actually hear about someone who has applied some of

00:04:07.600 | this advice that we talked about and what it looked like.

00:04:11.500 | As always, I encourage you to submit your own questions.

00:04:13.800 | There's links right in the show notes.

00:04:15.400 | You go to a survey, boom, type it in, comes right to us.

00:04:19.700 | We appreciate any and all questions that you send in.

00:04:23.500 | All right, so before we get going with those questions, I want to start

00:04:27.000 | today as I often do with a deep dive.

00:04:31.100 | Many of you have been sending me notes and messages and articles about

00:04:36.700 | the current workplace related internet trend du jour, which is quiet

00:04:42.700 | quitting.

00:04:44.000 | I then went relatively deep on this topic over the weekend for a writing

00:04:50.700 | project.

00:04:51.100 | Something I was writing for a book chapter for my slow productivity

00:04:53.300 | book.

00:04:53.600 | I went deep on this topic and did some research about where it started

00:04:58.400 | from and how it's being covered and what it's really all about.

00:05:01.200 | So I figured this was a good excuse today's episode to actually talk

00:05:04.900 | about quiet quitting.

00:05:07.500 | So if you haven't heard of this, this is the timeline I was able to

00:05:12.100 | excavate through my research.

00:05:13.500 | This trend starts on TikTok.

00:05:16.000 | It starts in July.

00:05:17.500 | So there is a TikTok username at the time, ZKChillin.

00:05:23.400 | He has since changed his username, but his name was ZKChillin.

00:05:28.900 | He posted a 17 second video on TikTok that featured soft piano

00:05:34.800 | music playing over a montage of videos.

00:05:38.700 | There's one of it's him on the subway and then you see a downtown

00:05:42.400 | New York City Street and then a residential street and then for some

00:05:45.600 | reason a child's automated bubble machine.

00:05:49.500 | So it has this montage and you hear his voice and I wrote down what he

00:05:53.600 | says in that video.

00:05:54.600 | So he says, "I recently heard about this idea of quiet quitting where

00:05:59.900 | you're not quitting your job, but quitting the idea of going above and

00:06:03.000 | beyond in your work.

00:06:05.300 | Then he goes on a little bit, I won't read the whole thing, to reject

00:06:08.000 | hustle culture, to reject the idea that hustle culture demands, which

00:06:12.400 | is that your work is your life.

00:06:13.500 | And he says the reality is that it's not and your worth as a person is

00:06:16.800 | not defined by your labor.

00:06:18.800 | So that TikTok video becomes popular.

00:06:21.900 | Other TikTok users start posting videos about quiet quitting, in

00:06:27.300 | particular lots of profession specific videos.

00:06:30.300 | So there's a well-known one now that's a teacher talking about the

00:06:34.500 | demands of teaching and etc.

00:06:36.500 | Right?

00:06:36.600 | So it becomes a TikTok phenomenon.

00:06:38.200 | The mainstream media picks it up as far as I can tell early August.

00:06:42.300 | They pick this up and it has now been covered extensively in the

00:06:47.400 | mainstream media and other types of media since then.

00:06:49.700 | So it jumped from TikTok into mainstream discussion.

00:06:52.800 | So I'm loading up here on the screen.

00:06:54.700 | So for those of you who are watching this episode or segment on YouTube,

00:06:58.200 | you can actually see the article, but I'll narrate for those who are

00:07:00.400 | just listening.

00:07:01.000 | There is this article from The Guardian on August 6th, which I believe

00:07:08.100 | as far as I can tell is one of the first actual old-school media

00:07:11.600 | sources to tackle the topic.

00:07:14.500 | So it was titled "Quiet quitting while doing the bare minimum at work

00:07:19.000 | has gone global" and it was written by James Tapper.

00:07:22.900 | I just want to point out a couple things from this article and then

00:07:26.300 | what I want to do is give you my thoughts on all this.

00:07:29.000 | So this article opens, I just want to point this out by saying Bartleby

00:07:33.300 | is back, although no doubt he would prefer not to be.

00:07:36.600 | This is a very British way to open an article like that.

00:07:39.800 | There is a book, Melville wrote a short story, I think it's a novella

00:07:45.100 | short story, I think it's a short story, maybe novella, called Bartleby

00:07:48.300 | the Scrivener.

00:07:49.200 | It's actually one of the first, as far as I can tell, books about

00:07:53.500 | knowledge work on we.

00:07:55.300 | So check out that book if you haven't seen it.

00:07:57.500 | But anyways, that's very British. The number of American TikTok users

00:08:01.500 | who would know that reference, I'm going to assume is low.

00:08:03.500 | Alright, so let me jump ahead here.

00:08:06.400 | Here's another key quote.

00:08:07.200 | Instead, they are doing just enough in the office to keep up.

00:08:12.100 | So this is talking about the "quiet quitters" then leaving work

00:08:15.800 | on time and muting slack.

00:08:16.900 | The writer then adds, kind of snarkily, then posting about it on social

00:08:21.800 | media.

00:08:22.000 | So here is the summary of quiet quitting that this Guardian article

00:08:24.800 | gave. They're doing just enough in the office to keep up.

00:08:27.300 | Then leaving work on time and muting slack.

00:08:30.800 | Now there's some good analysis in this piece trying to understand

00:08:34.300 | this trend.

00:08:34.800 | So here's a quote from an expert. Since the pandemic, people's

00:08:38.900 | relationship with work has been studied in many ways and the literature

00:08:42.500 | typically across professions would argue that yes, people's way of

00:08:45.700 | relating to their work has changed.

00:08:47.300 | We talk about that often on the show, the impact of the pandemic on

00:08:51.100 | people stepping back and saying, wait a second.

00:08:53.200 | What's going on with my life?

00:08:55.100 | What's going on with my work?

00:08:55.900 | Is a good time to regroup.

00:08:57.200 | Another quote from this expert.

00:09:00.300 | The search for meaning has become far more apparent.

00:09:03.300 | There's a sense of our own mortality during the pandemic.

00:09:05.600 | Something quite existential around people thinking, what should work

00:09:08.900 | mean for me?

00:09:09.500 | What can I do in a role?

00:09:11.300 | How can I do a role that's more aligned to my values?

00:09:14.500 | And finally, we have another quote here from a Harvard Business

00:09:19.000 | School professor who introduced this term, "The Great Rethink" as

00:09:25.800 | a better way of describing the current moment in knowledge work than

00:09:29.300 | something like the Great Resignation.

00:09:30.700 | There's a lot of rethinking happening.

00:09:32.900 | All right, so I want to give, let me give some thoughts here.

00:09:37.600 | First of all, I should go on to say this article, which was one of

00:09:40.700 | the first, was one of the better articles on this topic.

00:09:44.300 | They defined what quiet quitting was and then gave this psychological

00:09:48.500 | context.

00:09:49.100 | What's going on in the workplace?

00:09:50.100 | Why might this trend have emerged?

00:09:51.600 | Since then, things have been going downhill.

00:09:55.300 | I do not necessarily suggest getting, looking at the online coverage

00:09:59.900 | of this topic as I went into it for my, the chapter I was writing.

00:10:06.100 | In the months since this, this idea first arose, I think online

00:10:11.000 | discussion and coverage has become a pile on of superficial

00:10:16.700 | criticality.

00:10:17.500 | The online commentators are seeing this issue mainly as a chance to

00:10:23.400 | prove their sophistication and bona fides by trying to one-up whoever

00:10:27.000 | talked about it last by pointing out what they missed.

00:10:29.100 | You thought this is wrong, but you're the problem because you missed

00:10:31.800 | out on this problem and then someone else comes in and I find it to

00:10:34.700 | be completely non-useful.

00:10:35.900 | So you have the original quiet quitters on TikTok and then you get

00:10:39.000 | the reaction that's like kids are lazy.

00:10:40.700 | You know, this is just called having a job.

00:10:42.300 | What are you talking about?

00:10:43.200 | And then you have the crew that comes in and says, whoa, whoa, whoa,

00:10:46.300 | you both are wrong because what neither of you are doing is cataloging

00:10:50.000 | every single identity group and trying to argue which identity

00:10:52.600 | groups will have an easier time than worse.

00:10:54.400 | You have to have a huge appendix trying to rank order the ease with

00:10:58.600 | which different groups can do quiet quitting and until you acknowledge

00:11:01.300 | that you're the problem that someone else comes in and says no, all

00:11:03.500 | of you guys are the problem because what you don't realize is that

00:11:05.800 | you're you're bougie stooges and the key here is to rebuild capitalism

00:11:10.500 | and replace it with something better.

00:11:11.900 | This discussion in general is just part of the super structure that

00:11:15.700 | is upholding this economic exploitation.

00:11:18.400 | Everyone trying to one-up everyone else, everyone else trying to make

00:11:21.600 | everyone else seem dumber than them.

00:11:23.200 | It's a mess.

00:11:24.700 | It's a pile on ignore it.

00:11:27.300 | So let's push that aside.

00:11:29.600 | Let's get rid of the posture and get back to the original issue here

00:11:32.200 | of quiet quitting and this context that I think the Guardian provided

00:11:36.100 | which I think is quite good.

00:11:37.400 | So I think there is something important here.

00:11:40.700 | What we're seeing in that tick-tock discussion.

00:11:43.000 | Is a new generation that will call it this pandemic generation the

00:11:47.900 | generation that had the pandemic disruptions hit early in their

00:11:51.500 | adulthood discovering for lack of a better word lifestyle design.

00:11:56.600 | The idea that work is one of the factors that you can intentionally

00:12:03.200 | deploy as part of a larger plan to construct a life that is meaningful

00:12:07.300 | or deep.

00:12:07.800 | So it's an intentional approach to life in which you are designing

00:12:10.900 | your life to meet whatever criteria you have for meaning and depth.

00:12:16.000 | So it is good to see a new generation discovering this.

00:12:19.700 | The frustration is is there they're starting from scratch.

00:12:22.800 | I mean quiet quitting is a it's a simplistic and crude first step

00:12:28.000 | towards trying to understand.

00:12:28.900 | Well, wait a second.

00:12:29.700 | What role does work have in my life?

00:12:34.000 | I'm working too much.

00:12:35.500 | I don't know why probably because someone's being evil.

00:12:37.600 | I think I'm going to like work less.

00:12:40.200 | It's a very simplistic first step towards a deeper more necessary

00:12:43.600 | conversation, but this is a topic that has been covered every single

00:12:48.100 | generation going back quite a few generations go back to the 19th

00:12:52.600 | century read Walden by Thoreau jump forward to the 20th century read

00:12:57.700 | the seven-story mountain jump forward another 20 years read Zen and

00:13:00.900 | the art of motorcycle maintenance jump forward to the 21st century.

00:13:04.800 | You can start with eat pray love then go onwards to the four-hour

00:13:08.700 | workweek which by the way was covering this exact issue the last

00:13:12.000 | time we went through this which was the post 9/11 recession and my

00:13:17.200 | generation the early Millennials entering the working world and

00:13:20.800 | trying to find their way.

00:13:21.900 | We had Tim Ferriss's version of lifestyle design.

00:13:25.500 | It's also covered by us here on the show and in my writing extensively

00:13:30.000 | when we talk about the deep life and lifestyle centric career planning

00:13:33.300 | and career capital and in the the method of intentionally trying to

00:13:37.100 | construct a life that is deep and how you have to be systematic and

00:13:40.600 | deploy lots of different angles at it.

00:13:42.000 | So it's it's not a topic.

00:13:43.300 | We're starting from scratch.

00:13:45.300 | The tick-tock crew kind of is so I think this is the the good news bad

00:13:49.200 | news. The good news is what a topic and I'm glad I think it's a serious

00:13:54.100 | topic and I'm glad it's getting attention with this particular group.

00:13:57.100 | The bad news is look if you start from scratch.

00:13:59.100 | I don't think you're going to catch up to throw anytime soon like people

00:14:02.200 | have thought about this.

00:14:03.100 | So you should pull from what is already out there.

00:14:06.900 | So I think this is an important topic.

00:14:09.900 | I'm glad it's being looked at this pandemic generation probably has

00:14:15.000 | had the most impetus to look at this topic that we've seen since I

00:14:19.900 | don't know.

00:14:20.200 | Maybe the Zen of the art of motorcycle maintenance sort of 1960s early

00:14:25.100 | 70s.

00:14:25.600 | That's probably the last time we had a comparable disruption in culture

00:14:30.600 | evolution of culture that required a pretty serious re rethinking that

00:14:35.100 | eventually by the way led to the 1980s.

00:14:37.300 | We talked about this recently early 1990s notion of passion and following

00:14:41.000 | your passion and the bastardization of Campbell's follow your bliss,

00:14:44.600 | which has been the mixed bag and we're having another one of these

00:14:46.900 | evolutions now in the great rethink of induced by the pandemic is going

00:14:52.500 | on.

00:14:52.700 | We're trying to rethink these things.

00:14:54.000 | So I think quiet quitting is reflecting a good trend.

00:14:58.700 | Even if the details of these TikTok videos are easy to dismiss, I would

00:15:03.800 | say let's resist that urge.

00:15:05.100 | Yes, if you're going to look at 23 year olds posting 17 second videos,

00:15:09.600 | we can make fun.

00:15:10.400 | We can make ourselves feel smarter than everyone else.

00:15:12.700 | I think what we should do is see this as an opportunity to help a group

00:15:17.300 | a large group of dissatisfied and earnestly searching people.

00:15:21.200 | Find their way so they don't have to do this all from scratch.

00:15:25.100 | So my thoughts on quiet quitting Jesse.

00:15:29.100 | It seems like that would be a topic in both books that you're going to

00:15:31.800 | work on.

00:15:32.100 | Yeah, yes, this little productivity productivity, right?

00:15:35.700 | That seems like a even bigger product topic in your next book.

00:15:39.100 | Yeah, I think the deep life book is going to be a big topic is going to

00:15:43.800 | be a good match for this.

00:15:44.600 | I mean, it's all in the air right now.

00:15:46.000 | You know, and this happens every generation you get to a place

00:15:52.700 | economically things are going good.

00:15:53.900 | There's other concerns.

00:15:55.100 | You don't really think much about work and then and then once you get

00:15:59.000 | going something happens and you're like, well, what role is work supposed

00:16:03.200 | to have my life?

00:16:03.700 | What's going on here and people try to figure this out.

00:16:06.900 | So a slow productivity, how does it relate?

00:16:10.700 | Well, I mean, I think slow productivity is maybe a little bit more.

00:16:14.700 | Narrow in its attack on this topic, but slow productivity is saying what

00:16:21.100 | even are you going for when you say you want to be productive?

00:16:24.700 | Like what is your definition of a working life?

00:16:27.600 | Well executed and the argument there is that we we have these we don't

00:16:32.500 | think it through.

00:16:32.900 | We have these superficial definitions.

00:16:34.400 | I don't know.

00:16:34.800 | Busyness is better than less hustling is better than not hustling.

00:16:38.000 | I want to feel like I'm earning my keep but it's all very haphazard and

00:16:42.200 | a lot of what we actually do when we're trying to get after it quote

00:16:46.200 | unquote in our work is ironically counterproductive makes us more

00:16:51.300 | miserable.

00:16:51.800 | It's not maximizing useful output and so slow productivity is saying

00:16:54.800 | why don't we go back and rethink what we even mean by productivity,

00:16:57.500 | especially when it comes to knowledge work to try to find something

00:17:00.300 | that's more sustainable.

00:17:02.300 | That's going to make life more meaningful and it all is going to

00:17:05.200 | produce better stuff.

00:17:05.800 | So it's like a narrow first stab at the great rethink and then the deep

00:17:11.400 | life is much broader.

00:17:12.100 | The deep life is where you say, you know what we're going to move to

00:17:14.600 | Kentucky.

00:17:15.000 | So quiet quitting kind of helps like define it and then from there.

00:17:18.400 | Yeah, quiet quitting or quiet quitting is a response to the same

00:17:22.100 | underlying impetus that my books are coming out of which is people

00:17:24.900 | starting to rethink work.

00:17:27.200 | It's rolling their life and what they're trying to do with their life

00:17:28.800 | more generally.

00:17:32.000 | Alright, we got a couple good blocks of questions here.

00:17:34.000 | First, I want to talk about a new sponsor to the show that I'm excited

00:17:37.100 | about.

00:17:37.300 | And that is Henson shaving.

00:17:41.200 | This is the type of this is the type of thing I like.

00:17:45.800 | Okay.

00:17:46.100 | So here's the here's the idea here.

00:17:48.000 | I'm going to have a script but let me let me cut to the idea of what

00:17:50.000 | I'm really excited about here.

00:17:51.000 | This is a family-run business that specialize in really high-precision

00:17:58.200 | parts manufacturing for the aerospace industry.

00:18:01.100 | So they have manufactured pieces for the Mars Rovers.

00:18:04.100 | They've manufactured pieces for the International Space Station.

00:18:07.400 | They use these high-precision CNC routers that can build things to

00:18:11.200 | really precise specifications.

00:18:12.800 | So they had this idea.

00:18:15.000 | They're looking at the world of shaving.

00:18:17.200 | What they figured out is the problem in the world of shaving is the way

00:18:21.900 | the razors are mounted.

00:18:23.500 | If the razors are loose or too much of it is exposed it bends up and

00:18:29.200 | down.

00:18:29.300 | It's like a diving board.

00:18:31.000 | It moves up and down and that's what catches your skin.

00:18:33.500 | That's what causes irritation and nicks.

00:18:36.000 | And so they realized if you could build a really precise razor body.

00:18:42.600 | So the actual handle and thing at the end of the razor that could hold a

00:18:46.500 | standard razor blade perfectly.

00:18:48.800 | Firmly with with just the right amount showing then the blades become the

00:18:55.200 | easy part.

00:18:55.800 | 10 cent standard blade is fine.

00:18:58.200 | All of the magic is in getting the precisely built handle and that's what

00:19:01.600 | they did.

00:19:02.000 | They designed this beautiful precision-generated metal shaving handle

00:19:09.000 | that you use with just standard 10 cent razor blades and get a incredible

00:19:15.700 | shave out of it.

00:19:16.400 | So the way they explained it to me is they built a great razor and a terrible

00:19:19.800 | razor business.

00:19:21.700 | So unlike the subscription services, unlike the disposable razors where you

00:19:26.800 | know, the whole business is we're going to keep selling you these high-priced

00:19:28.900 | poorly made razors that blades that you use for a while and throw out here you

00:19:35.000 | buy this one really nice handle and then you know for 10 bucks you can have two

00:19:39.400 | years worth of blades.

00:19:40.800 | The blades are no longer the easy part.

00:19:42.300 | So I like this idea of super high-quality precisely made beautiful objects that

00:19:47.400 | do a job really well.

00:19:49.300 | You don't have to have all the plastic and all the waste.

00:19:52.000 | You have this nice piece of aluminum and you use just standard blades and you

00:19:55.200 | get a really good shave.

00:19:56.000 | Their precision is .0013 inches.

00:19:59.900 | That's how far their blades extend.

00:20:01.300 | That's less than the thickness of a human hair.

00:20:03.400 | You can't do that unless you know how to make super precise parts.

00:20:07.400 | So I am a I was a fan of this of this company.

00:20:12.000 | I have my Henson's shaver.

00:20:14.800 | It's fantastic.

00:20:16.700 | Now you pay more for the thing up front, but you're not buying the replacement

00:20:20.700 | blades.

00:20:20.900 | You're not doing the subscriptions.

00:20:21.900 | You're not doing the going to CVS and getting the things in the plastic box that

00:20:26.500 | they have to come and unlock to whatever you buy the thing once and you use it

00:20:30.200 | with 10 cents blades.

00:20:31.200 | You you will be winning in terms of how much you paid really soon.

00:20:37.000 | So I don't know.

00:20:37.800 | I mean, this is one of these things where I'm actually a big fan of the product.

00:20:42.700 | So here's the thing.

00:20:43.900 | It's time to say no to subscriptions and yes to a razor that will last you a

00:20:47.000 | lifetime.

00:20:48.300 | Visit Henson shaving.com / Cal to pick the razor for you and then use the code

00:20:55.600 | Cal and you will get two years worth of blades free with your razor.

00:21:00.800 | Now the key here is when you go to the site you choose your razor add the two

00:21:06.600 | year supply of razors to your cart.

00:21:08.800 | And then when you enter the code Cal it'll just make them free, but you have to

00:21:12.200 | you have to add the razors to your cart and then enter the code Cal when you

00:21:15.100 | check out and you'll get the two years worth of razors for free.

00:21:17.500 | That's 100 free blades when you head to Henson shaving.com / Cal and use that

00:21:28.300 | code Cal.

00:21:29.700 | So I was on the phone with them Jesse right before earlier today and I knew I

00:21:36.200 | had to get over here and I had to restrain myself because I wanted to shave

00:21:40.800 | but I had a lot of questions about the high precision CNC routers.

00:21:44.700 | I'm like does it start with a block of aluminum?

00:21:49.000 | Like how do these things work?

00:21:50.300 | It's it's you know, because it's a cylindrical like precision made thing.

00:21:53.500 | I'm just really interested in that technology.

00:21:54.800 | Yeah.

00:21:55.700 | I also thought it was cool that the thing that built my razor also built

00:22:00.200 | parts for the International Space Station.

00:22:03.200 | So that's cool.

00:22:05.600 | I also want to talk about speaking of well-made really interesting

00:22:10.200 | high-tech products.

00:22:12.300 | I also want to talk about 8 Sleep.

00:22:14.800 | This is I think again really cool technology.

00:22:19.300 | I like seeing really cool technologies.

00:22:21.100 | So the 8 Sleep pod is they call it the ultimate sleep machine.

00:22:26.800 | But what it does is a sleep technology that can control the temperature of

00:22:31.300 | your sleeping experience.

00:22:32.600 | You put the pod over your mattress and you have precise control over what

00:22:36.900 | temperature you then want that mattress cover to be at.

00:22:41.800 | So the way I use it why I like this product like most people like this

00:22:45.100 | product is you can bring the temperature down.

00:22:47.900 | It's hard to get a good night's sleep if you're hot.

00:22:51.400 | And if you bring the temperature down with your 8 Sleep pod to be just a

00:22:54.900 | little bit cooler the quality of your sleep significantly improves.

00:22:59.800 | You can bring it down as cold as 55 degrees.

00:23:05.200 | I was thinking about 8 Sleep, Jesse the other day I was watching reruns of

00:23:10.200 | Curb Your Enthusiasm.

00:23:12.300 | And there's a lot like the later seasons where he's arguing with his

00:23:19.500 | girlfriend, I forgot her name, about the temperature they sleep in and she

00:23:22.100 | likes it warmer and he likes it cooler.

00:23:24.800 | But the premise is like eventually she gets sick and he's going to have to

00:23:29.500 | care for her and he was trying to break up with her before she got sick and

00:23:32.100 | he just missed it.

00:23:32.800 | But then the doctor is there and the doctor is like and this is really

00:23:36.400 | important.

00:23:37.100 | You're going to have to really keep the room warm.

00:23:39.300 | You know, I think it's gonna be really important for the healing

00:23:43.100 | process.

00:23:43.600 | You really I think for sleeping need the room to be 80-85 degrees.

00:23:46.400 | I thought that was funny.

00:23:47.700 | The 8 Sleep would be just what he needs there, what Larry David needed

00:23:51.800 | because he could bring his side of the bed down.

00:23:54.100 | So there's data about this 8 Sleep users experience up to 19% increase

00:23:57.800 | recovery up to 32% improvement in sleep quality 34% more deep sleep.

00:24:03.600 | Their newest generation is called the Pod 3 which allows you to do

00:24:08.200 | tracking.

00:24:08.900 | You can track sleep, track health with the sensors, health tracking, you

00:24:13.700 | see sensors that are in there.

00:24:14.700 | So it's getting pretty high-tech, but mainly it really is a game-changer

00:24:18.900 | to go to bed and the thing you're on is not hot.

00:24:22.300 | The Pod is not magic, but it can feel like it.

00:24:24.400 | So go to 8sleep.com/deep to start sleeping cool and save $150 on the

00:24:31.800 | Pod.

00:24:32.300 | That's 8 Sleep spelled out E-I-G-H-T sleep.com/deep.

00:24:37.000 | 8 Sleep currently ships within the US, Canada, and the UK as well as

00:24:41.400 | select countries in the EU and Australia.

00:24:44.800 | Alright, so let's get into some questions.

00:24:48.900 | Jesse, what's our first question of the day?

00:24:52.400 | Okay, so our first question is from Esther.

00:24:55.700 | She's a 48 year old physician in New York City.

00:24:59.100 | This is what she has to say.

00:25:00.700 | What did your parents do in your childhood and teen life to help

00:25:04.500 | motivate you to be as organized and efficient as you are?

00:25:07.700 | What lessons can I learn to motivate my teenagers to pursue excellence

00:25:11.600 | and all that they do?

00:25:12.700 | Well, it's an interesting question.

00:25:16.900 | So if I go back in time to think about young Cal Newport and what he

00:25:24.200 | was exposed to growing up, I mean, there is some interesting stuff to

00:25:27.300 | perhaps mine from back then.

00:25:28.900 | My mom is very organized.

00:25:31.500 | I mean, she'll tell this story that she wasn't organized.

00:25:36.300 | We were very young.

00:25:37.000 | She was not as organized and we lived in Houston.

00:25:39.800 | It was kind of a hectic setup because she had to commute from north

00:25:45.300 | of Houston in the downtown.

00:25:46.300 | It was a very long commute and then my dad had to go the other

00:25:48.500 | direction and we're always cobbling together childcare and I think

00:25:52.300 | it was a little busy and then we moved to New Jersey and once we

00:25:55.200 | moved to New Jersey, we were old enough that she was staying at home

00:25:58.100 | at that point and I think it was very stressful and chaotic to try

00:26:01.700 | to organize the lives of four elementary school age kids, but she

00:26:06.800 | had a friend she met.

00:26:08.500 | She had a friend who was Mormon who really pushed the Franklin

00:26:15.200 | Covey system, right?

00:26:16.300 | Because a cubby is Mormon.

00:26:18.300 | So the Franklin Franklin Covey system, which is based on part on

00:26:23.100 | Stephen Coven, Stephen Covey's thinking was very popular among

00:26:27.600 | Mormons before it expanded to be more popular generally.

00:26:30.200 | So my mom became a like a diehard user of the Franklin planner, like

00:26:34.900 | using it the way exactly following the rules and it transformed life.

00:26:38.500 | So it killed off that stress.

00:26:40.800 | It was a very organized household.

00:26:42.400 | So I was exposed to that.

00:26:45.000 | So subliminally I might have taken in organization helps, but I was

00:26:49.200 | not a very organized structured kid.

00:26:51.800 | I was haphazard.

00:26:53.500 | I would leave things until the last minute.

00:26:56.000 | I was not a kind of type A.

00:26:59.100 | Let's get things lined up tackle them one by one get things done

00:27:03.100 | at the highest level of quality.

00:27:04.300 | I was not like that until college.

00:27:06.500 | I really wasn't until college when I got serious about my academic

00:27:11.200 | career that I began to get more systematic about organization because

00:27:16.200 | at that point I cared.

00:27:18.700 | It was not really till then that I cared how well I did my options in

00:27:23.900 | life for whatever reason.

00:27:25.500 | I don't quite know why I had a chip on my shoulder.

00:27:27.700 | You know, I just had this sense of I think I have some talent.

00:27:31.400 | I think I'm a smart guy, but it's on me to make something of this.

00:27:37.000 | I don't know where that came from.

00:27:38.300 | But that sense did not emerge for me until college and then I got

00:27:41.000 | very organized and structured and developed the type of ideas I talk

00:27:44.400 | about here.

00:27:44.800 | So I don't know if I subliminally took in some things from my mom

00:27:49.200 | growing up that I then put into action once I was ready to put into

00:27:52.200 | action or if it was unrelated, but it certainly wasn't I'm 12 and

00:27:57.600 | really good at planning things.

00:27:59.000 | So from a parenting perspective, what this what this is telling me is

00:28:04.100 | you probably cannot engineer a child into being more organized in the

00:28:10.900 | being more driven.

00:28:12.900 | You can demonstrate it in your own life.

00:28:17.000 | You can demonstrate the benefits of a structured life less stress

00:28:22.600 | more control more opportunity more options things in general are more

00:28:26.200 | interesting less chaotic.

00:28:27.800 | I think kids do pick up they appreciate the stability.

00:28:30.900 | They will pick up the stability.

00:28:32.100 | So that might be something that is actually imprinted.

00:28:35.100 | It's a sort of a show-don't-tell strategy.

00:28:37.900 | I do also think it's important to talk with kids, you know, specifically

00:28:42.900 | about building intentionally a life a deeper life.

00:28:48.100 | These things matter discipline is important for this reason.

00:28:50.900 | It's how you make the most of the talents you have the opportunities

00:28:54.500 | you have and make the most of your time here knowing what's what you

00:28:58.000 | want in life is important engineering around that's important.

00:29:00.300 | Here's why we live here.

00:29:01.200 | Here's why we have these jobs.

00:29:02.300 | Here's why we left this we really think about this.

00:29:04.300 | Here's why community is important.

00:29:05.600 | You know, I spend all this time volunteering over here is because I

00:29:07.800 | think it's important to serve other people being really clear.

00:29:11.200 | About the elements what makes a life deep I think is again probably

00:29:15.800 | very important not that they will then say yes dad.

00:29:18.300 | Yes mom.

00:29:19.000 | I'm going to start doing this tomorrow, but they remember that lessons

00:29:21.900 | when they get to a place where they realize oh, I'm on my own.

00:29:24.100 | I got to figure myself out.

00:29:25.600 | You got to figure out what to do and they can look back and say here's

00:29:30.800 | an option to try what my parents did what seemed to be working for

00:29:34.700 | them what they explained to me and taught to me.

00:29:37.300 | Now I am ready 1920 21 years old now.

00:29:40.700 | I'm ready to try this out.

00:29:41.900 | And so there might be this period of frustration where you're you're

00:29:45.000 | demonstrating through your actions.

00:29:46.300 | You're you just through conversation.

00:29:48.000 | You're explaining what you figured out over time as an adult about how

00:29:51.900 | to approach life and you're not seeing it reflected in their day-to-day

00:29:54.500 | action.

00:29:54.800 | You're like man if I was 17, I'd be doing this so much better, but it's

00:29:57.500 | still useful what you're doing because it's it's it's giving this option

00:30:00.800 | into their toolbox.

00:30:01.900 | So when they're ready to start pulling tools for the toolbox, which will

00:30:04.600 | be out of sight of you after they're out of the home.

00:30:07.300 | It'll be in there and they might be more likely to pick it up.

00:30:12.100 | The other thing I would recommend is you have to resist.

00:30:17.100 | You have to resist the the appeal of using your kids as a proxy for your

00:30:26.400 | own accomplishments.

00:30:27.700 | This is a big DC area thing.

00:30:30.600 | I think this is true in other major cities as well.

00:30:33.800 | I'd be interested from our international listeners how common this is.

00:30:36.500 | It's so easy if you're like a relatively accomplished adult who has kids

00:30:43.300 | and you look at your kids and say, you know, the competitive structures

00:30:48.900 | where they exist what's required to stand out man.

00:30:52.100 | That's not so hard from the perspective of an adult as compared to like

00:30:55.900 | trying to get partner at this law firm that I did.

00:30:58.000 | And so let me just push these kids into accomplishments that are visible

00:31:03.700 | and impressive and by proxy that will reflect well on me and you get a

00:31:08.000 | lot of this now parents are saying my kids and their accomplishments

00:31:10.700 | are going to reflect well on me and you know what?

00:31:12.400 | It's a lot easier to have them do the work than me have to do the work.

00:31:15.000 | It's a lot easier to say, you know, go back there and keep practicing

00:31:17.400 | the clarinet than it is to actually have to practice it yourself and

00:31:20.300 | you use the kids as a proxy for your own accomplishment.

00:31:23.300 | This I think is a problem.

00:31:26.000 | I used to study this in a lot more detail in my 20s when I was doing

00:31:29.400 | more work on student stress.

00:31:32.200 | High school student stress was an area that I used to give talks on

00:31:34.700 | and do a lot of writing on and there's a real problem with this

00:31:38.000 | approach.

00:31:38.700 | What happens is is you can burn out the motivational drive of your

00:31:42.400 | kid.

00:31:42.800 | So they get turned off on this idea this extrinsic motivation of like

00:31:48.500 | man, it's go go go if you got to do everything at the highest level.

00:31:52.000 | Why don't you have the highest grade your parents are getting a real

00:31:55.100 | kick out of hey, you got to the most advanced, you know, you're in

00:31:58.100 | the most advanced reading group.

00:32:00.200 | You're on the best select team.

00:32:02.100 | You're the first chair and the whatever and they're getting all

00:32:04.700 | this this whatever this energy out of it.

00:32:07.800 | They feel like it reflects well in them and you're burning out the

00:32:09.800 | kids motivation drive and then they're going to go through some sort

00:32:12.500 | of simplistic rebellion where when they're looking at their options

00:32:15.400 | a sort of more intentional careful discipline, which is really

00:32:19.000 | important to life.

00:32:20.000 | They're not going to pull that option on their toolbox.

00:32:21.900 | It's like I did the like discipline thing when I was 17 and it burned

00:32:24.900 | me out and now that I'm you know, I made it to whatever.

00:32:30.100 | Brown I'm going to go the opposite direction.

00:32:33.300 | And it's not great.

00:32:36.300 | So I'm just going to throw in that thing you want to demonstrate

00:32:39.800 | the intentional construction of a life that includes discipline

00:32:43.100 | organization.

00:32:43.700 | You want to talk about it why it's important but don't I mean the

00:32:47.400 | kid has to pull it out of the toolbox themselves and they might not

00:32:50.100 | be ready to pull it out when they're 17 and if you force them too

00:32:52.600 | hard to do it, you might and I don't want to stretch this metaphor,

00:32:55.800 | but you might end up breaking that tool early and then they won't

00:32:58.800 | have it when they need it later on in life.

00:33:00.500 | When you you coach a lot Jesse, I don't know what you see but yeah,

00:33:06.400 | like sports culture around here.

00:33:07.700 | Yeah.

00:33:08.100 | No, you nailed it.

00:33:09.200 | I mean though you work with some fantastic athletes.

00:33:12.600 | I mean, I think it's a difference if it's you're really gifted,

00:33:15.800 | you know athletically for example, so like let's let's foster that

00:33:20.200 | and like really make that a part of your life, but there's this

00:33:21.800 | whole second tier of you know, young people athletes where it's

00:33:24.600 | like you don't really need to be away every weekend at these

00:33:28.400 | tournaments.

00:33:28.900 | You don't really need private coach like it's fine, but you're

00:33:31.800 | not you're not going to play d1 college.

00:33:34.000 | Yeah, so so why is your why are you spending so much time and

00:33:39.900 | saying other than I you can get addicted as a parent to the like

00:33:42.600 | we're on this team and we got selected for that team and every

00:33:46.400 | time that happens you as the parent somehow it makes you feel

00:33:49.100 | like physically stronger for sure.

00:33:51.100 | There's some pretty intense parents out there as well.

00:33:54.200 | Yeah that you know push a lot and it can be difficult for like

00:33:58.700 | the head coach to because they're always do you have parent?

00:34:01.800 | Well, I don't want you to talk out of school, but just abstractly

00:34:04.400 | speaking do parents parents interacting with head coaches or

00:34:08.200 | something that was very common at the high school level very

00:34:10.800 | common.

00:34:11.200 | Even common at their college level like there's like college

00:34:14.400 | coaches that I couldn't have to deal with some parents for sure

00:34:18.100 | that baffles me as someone who did a little bit of d1 college

00:34:23.800 | athletics.

00:34:24.300 | I couldn't imagine a parent coming in to definitely exist.

00:34:30.000 | Oh my goodness.

00:34:30.700 | Yeah.

00:34:32.300 | Well, hey, look I had if this helps I had none of that growing

00:34:35.900 | up.

00:34:36.200 | I think we had a lot of kids and it was busy and we had good

00:34:39.600 | structure and we had good routine and good role models and our

00:34:42.200 | parents but like I we were we were never at least I wasn't

00:34:46.500 | there was never this thing of this particular activity you're

00:34:49.900 | doing.

00:34:50.500 | Why can't we be doing this at a higher level?

00:34:54.200 | You know and it and it worked out.

00:34:55.900 | Okay for me.

00:34:56.500 | But everyone is going to have to look into their toolbox of how

00:35:00.200 | do I build my life at some point and I'm just just my theory

00:35:02.500 | make sure the right tools are in there and don't be frustrated

00:35:05.000 | that they're not ready to open the box at 15 and 16 some kids

00:35:07.700 | are but some kids aren't.

00:35:09.800 | All right.

00:35:10.900 | What do we have next Jesse?

00:35:11.700 | All right.

00:35:13.100 | Next question is from Max.

00:35:15.100 | He's a 40 year old marketer from London and he says I've been

00:35:19.900 | asked to start writing regular articles for my company.

00:35:22.800 | I'm struggling with this assignment.

00:35:24.400 | I cannot find my voice when I write I come across as very

00:35:28.100 | rigid and contrived.

00:35:29.600 | How do you write your articles?

00:35:31.200 | That's a good question.

00:35:33.500 | How do you actually craft an article?

00:35:38.100 | It seems like it's a easy thing.

00:35:42.000 | They're not that long.

00:35:43.200 | It's not a book but more than a few people like you Max have

00:35:47.000 | faced the reality when it comes time to write what needs to be

00:35:49.900 | a smart good article in this case representing your company

00:35:53.000 | that it's hard to do.

00:35:54.100 | You don't know where to start.

00:35:55.200 | So, you know, I have some tips to share.

00:35:57.100 | Let me let me just start with the preface of I have been writing

00:36:02.200 | professionally, you know for over two decades and it's all I

00:36:06.500 | do.

00:36:06.700 | All I do is write I write every single day.

00:36:08.600 | My key I showed you on the show last week.

00:36:10.600 | My keyboard is completely worn away after just a couple years

00:36:13.500 | of use because of how much I write I write academic articles.

00:36:16.200 | I write public consumption magazine articles.

00:36:18.800 | I write books.

00:36:19.500 | I write essays every week for my own newsletter.

00:36:22.700 | And so I've been working at this for a really long time.

00:36:25.100 | So I only say that just as a preface that don't don't let's

00:36:28.800 | say read one of my recent articles and say why doesn't my

00:36:32.500 | stuff just sound like this?

00:36:34.000 | What's wrong?

00:36:35.000 | There's 20 years of work that goes behind that.

00:36:38.900 | So it's a it's a process you get better and better with work.

00:36:41.500 | So I'm going to start there so that you're not and forget.

00:36:44.400 | Okay, maybe don't use me as an example.

00:36:46.200 | I don't want you reading, you know, John McPhee and saying

00:36:49.200 | why don't I sound like that?

00:36:50.300 | He spent a lifetime honing that ability.

00:36:52.300 | I do have some specific advice that I wrote down a few things

00:36:55.300 | here about article writing one spend more time thinking

00:37:02.200 | through your idea your thesis before you write preferably

00:37:05.800 | do this on foot.

00:37:07.100 | I think interesting articles good writers spend a lot more

00:37:11.000 | time thinking about the point they want to make and the pieces

00:37:13.600 | that go into that point.

00:37:14.500 | They spend a lot more time thinking about that than you might

00:37:17.300 | realize. I think amateur writers get started too quickly.

00:37:20.900 | And especially for an idea article, you're not going to figure

00:37:23.900 | out on the page.

00:37:24.700 | There might be passages you figure out on the page.

00:37:27.000 | Like let me just go for this and then see if it's working

00:37:29.200 | or not, but you're not going to figure out here is my big

00:37:32.000 | point or the thesis and the four things to support it that

00:37:34.500 | has to be done on foot and it can take a long time to get

00:37:37.700 | there. You could try and not like what you have and you have

00:37:40.100 | to keep thinking before you start writing.

00:37:41.800 | All right number two for this style of article you'll be

00:37:45.500 | writing and I can see from your elaboration.

00:37:48.100 | It's it's like a philosophical angle on ideas related to

00:37:54.000 | the products your company builds.

00:37:55.800 | So for that type of philosophical idea type article start

00:37:59.700 | with a standard structure at first.

00:38:01.200 | I think it's a good good way to enter into professional

00:38:05.600 | article writing.

00:38:06.400 | So there's a you know, one of the standard structure is going

00:38:08.700 | to be you know, you open on a illustrative example that leads

00:38:12.800 | to the nut graphs.

00:38:13.900 | This is where you're actually explaining here is the idea.

00:38:17.500 | I'm going to try to convince you of in this piece and now

00:38:19.800 | you suddenly understand what that example that you just

00:38:22.700 | read was about.

00:38:23.400 | So you create a little bit of narrative tension which you

00:38:25.300 | relieve partially with the revelation of your thesis.

00:38:28.600 | Then you go into elaboration.

00:38:30.100 | All right, let me work through this connection idea.

00:38:32.600 | Let me support it give you the necessary caveats.

00:38:35.100 | Now, they have a complete understanding of the idea.

00:38:37.300 | The narrative tension has been fully released and then

00:38:40.200 | your conclusion should pull back have a call back to what

00:38:45.500 | you open with and then there's a sense of completion.

00:38:47.800 | So like that standard idea writing 101 you build up narrative

00:38:51.000 | tension and then the release of the tension pulls the reader

00:38:54.000 | through the article towards the end and the call back gives

00:38:56.300 | them this sort of satisfying sense of completion to the to

00:38:59.300 | the whole story.

00:38:59.900 | They just went through similar things happen.

00:39:02.700 | If you study, you know, Aristotle's poetics and storytelling

00:39:07.700 | similar types of structures and goes back a long way three

00:39:12.400 | show don't tell one of the big differentiators these type

00:39:16.200 | of articles between amateur and professional writing is

00:39:19.500 | to professional writings a lot denser by which I mean, it's

00:39:23.200 | points are established with quotes citations of specific

00:39:28.400 | examples.

00:39:29.100 | So it's denser.

00:39:30.200 | There's a there's a density of citation.

00:39:32.400 | I don't mean formal, you know, you're doing some sort of

00:39:34.200 | AP style citation, but it's you're showing don't telling

00:39:37.000 | such and such said this such and such example went for

00:39:40.200 | 14 years.

00:39:41.100 | Does this car in 1950 at on average this miles per gallon

00:39:45.600 | and now by 1990 was this me miles per hour and show don't

00:39:48.600 | tell related piece of advice number four be wary of the

00:39:53.400 | conversational voice.

00:39:54.700 | All right.

00:39:56.500 | It's a real temptation.

00:39:57.700 | I think when people are new to this type of article writing

00:39:59.600 | to ask rhetorical questions and have more colloquial asides

00:40:03.500 | of you would think this is the case, but it's not really

00:40:05.800 | what would you do if you were suddenly faced with 10 million

00:40:09.700 | dollars? Maybe not what you would think if you blah blah

00:40:11.900 | blah the conversational tone reads amateur it that's more

00:40:16.900 | that's more acceptable.

00:40:18.600 | I think in a sort of personalized blogging world, but

00:40:21.600 | you want to avoid the conversational tone.

00:40:23.800 | So they're like colloquial idiomatic expressions really

00:40:27.000 | avoid rhetorical questions except for maybe occasionally

00:40:29.700 | and this is my bugaboo.

00:40:31.400 | I think rhetorical questions and idea writing is you know,

00:40:34.500 | it's my version of using cliches.

00:40:36.900 | It's I think it's weak writing.

00:40:39.500 | Don't ask rhetorical question show.

00:40:40.900 | Don't tell show.

00:40:41.400 | Don't tell move it forward.

00:40:42.700 | And then finally don't write for the sake of writing.

00:40:46.200 | It really comes through an article writing as well as book

00:40:49.400 | chapter writing.

00:40:50.000 | You see this a lot when people are writing books that maybe

00:40:52.100 | they're not writers.

00:40:52.900 | It's a it's based on their expertise is you're like man.

00:40:55.600 | I know that you know how many words this chapter needs to

00:40:58.300 | be and you are trying to get to that word count that comes

00:41:03.400 | through really clearly.

00:41:04.300 | That's what I call writing for the sake of writing.

00:41:06.100 | Like there's no real reason for the last two paragraphs to

00:41:08.700 | be here other than you're trying to get to 2,000 words.

00:41:10.800 | Professional writers look to pull the ripcord on whatever

00:41:15.900 | passage idea or paragraph they're working on as soon as

00:41:18.800 | possible.

00:41:19.400 | The sooner I can get out of this the more comfortable I am

00:41:22.700 | with this.

00:41:23.000 | So go back and read, you know, some New Yorker articles and

00:41:26.500 | you'll see this they're they're out of the they're out of

00:41:30.000 | each argument as quickly as they can like what's the essence

00:41:33.100 | of what I'm trying to say here.

00:41:34.300 | You know, we psyched us is different than this.

00:41:37.600 | We also see it here ripcord.

00:41:39.000 | I'm out next thing you don't see this dragging out of like,

00:41:42.600 | you know, and maybe this and maybe that and let me rhetorical

00:41:45.400 | question here and and let's go back and summarize and so

00:41:49.700 | when you're writing record, I actually in the slow productivity

00:41:53.600 | book.

00:41:53.800 | I'm writing now my the voice.

00:41:56.100 | I'm using that book is is it's I don't know the right way

00:42:00.900 | to describe it, but I'm really trying to non over elaborate

00:42:05.200 | things.

00:42:05.400 | I guess it's a little bit more not enigmatic but a little

00:42:08.400 | bit more declarative because it's it's it's supposed to have

00:42:11.400 | a sense of some timeless wisdom.

00:42:12.900 | I literally on multiple occasions when I'm editing something

00:42:16.200 | have written ripcord ripcord ripcord as a reminder to myself

00:42:20.600 | like get out get out get the point get out get the point

00:42:22.600 | get out the reader smart to fill in the details.

00:42:24.600 | Don't over explain.

00:42:25.900 | All right.

00:42:27.100 | So those are my tips.

00:42:28.400 | I guess I gave one two, three, four five ideas here for making

00:42:33.300 | those articles really look a lot better and then my or just

00:42:37.600 | to reiterate my original point.

00:42:39.500 | Also, you will get better with time.

00:42:41.300 | So don't compare yourself to your very favorite writers and

00:42:44.800 | say why am I not there yet?

00:42:45.900 | You want to be better than you were with the last article

00:42:47.900 | you wrote and so hopefully these tips will help.

00:42:50.300 | So what the example then the nut what's the nut again?

00:42:53.200 | So that's where you actually lay out like what the big idea

00:42:55.500 | is going to be in the article.

00:42:56.600 | Okay, right.

00:42:57.300 | So like imagine something I was right.

00:43:01.400 | Let me let me draw a quick example from writing.

00:43:03.800 | I've been doing this week.

00:43:04.800 | So, you know, I opened a section of a chapter.

00:43:07.600 | I'm talking about Georgia O'Keeffe and I was talking about

00:43:12.400 | how busy her early career is.

00:43:13.800 | I think I talked about this on the show last week.

00:43:15.500 | This is the example though.

00:43:16.500 | So I'm telling the story about Georgia O'Keeffe and how

00:43:19.200 | how many different jobs she had all over the country and

00:43:23.400 | she and in the summer she would come back East and go West

00:43:25.600 | and it's just as really busy life and she really was trying

00:43:28.300 | to study painting and but would have to take these long

00:43:30.900 | breaks and she needed to really uncover potential is going

00:43:34.200 | to need something more that that more came when she started

00:43:37.100 | getting involved with Alfre Stieglitz and their family on

00:43:39.200 | this land by Lake George and and she started going up there

00:43:42.700 | with him and became unlocked the most prolific period of

00:43:46.800 | her career.

00:43:47.200 | So kind of hearing the story like this is interesting.

00:43:49.200 | The nut there is then pointing out.

00:43:56.000 | So this particular section seasonality.

00:44:00.200 | This is what Georgia O'Keeffe was demonstrating seasonality

00:44:03.600 | different times of the year.

00:44:04.600 | You're working on different things with different intensities

00:44:06.600 | is something that we we've sort of lost track of but it's

00:44:11.100 | actually really key to the human experience and something

00:44:13.500 | that we should try to get back.

00:44:14.600 | There we go.

00:44:15.500 | So you have this opening story like what's this?

00:44:16.900 | Why this is interesting.

00:44:17.700 | What's it all about that nut graph explains it but you still

00:44:20.500 | have narrative tension because you want to say well, why

00:44:23.000 | is that true?

00:44:23.600 | You know, why is seasonality important?

00:44:25.800 | Can we really get it back?

00:44:26.800 | What happened to it?

00:44:27.500 | Now you want to have that be resolved.

00:44:29.300 | That's the rest of that chapter then resolves those questions.

00:44:31.900 | So that's an example there.

00:44:34.000 | Got it.

00:44:34.700 | The alternative would be you could just come right in and

00:44:37.300 | say seasonality is very important.

00:44:39.900 | Here's the definition of seasonality.

00:44:41.500 | I will now give five reasons why and that's fine, but it

00:44:47.000 | this is the difference between having narrative tension and

00:44:49.100 | not. Yeah.

00:44:49.900 | Yeah, it's textbook versus like, okay, I want to see what

00:44:52.600 | happens next.

00:44:53.300 | All right, what do we got speaking of next?

00:44:55.600 | What do we have as our next question?

00:44:57.800 | My next question is from Joe.

00:44:59.600 | He's a software engineer from Minneapolis.

00:45:02.300 | Do you use anything like a someday maybe list?

00:45:06.100 | And if so, how do you manage it?

00:45:07.700 | All right.

00:45:09.300 | So someday maybe for those who don't know that's a getting

00:45:11.800 | things done a GTD reference.

00:45:13.700 | So in his book getting things done David Allen recommends

00:45:18.100 | keeping a someday maybe list.

00:45:19.600 | So it's projects that you're not actually actively working

00:45:22.400 | on now, but you might one day the point is in Allen's book.

00:45:27.800 | It's you don't want this rattling around in your head.

00:45:30.200 | You don't want this idea you have for something you might

00:45:32.200 | want to do one day having to be maintained just in your

00:45:35.300 | brain because anything you have to maintain just in your

00:45:38.000 | brain can become a source of stress.

00:45:39.900 | You can become a source of anxiety.

00:45:41.800 | You want it in a written down somewhere where you trust it

00:45:46.000 | won't be forgotten.

00:45:47.000 | And so he says just have this one list.

00:45:48.500 | I think it's a good idea.

00:45:49.400 | It's something like that is a good idea.

00:45:52.200 | You need a place or places where potential ideas are

00:45:56.600 | captured that you trust they will not be forgotten.

00:46:00.800 | Now, I actually think this is a piece of my system my personal

00:46:04.500 | system that I need to improve.

00:46:06.100 | My someday maybe storage right now is distributed among

00:46:11.300 | multiple different role specific systems, which is probably

00:46:16.800 | not optimal.

00:46:18.000 | So for example, I have role specific Trello boards where

00:46:22.600 | I keep track of tasks and related obligations.

00:46:26.200 | We've talked about this a lot of other episodes.

00:46:27.900 | Each of those boards has a column labeled back burner.

00:46:31.700 | That's one place that certain things go but these tend to

00:46:35.600 | be the things I put on a back burner list don't tend to be

00:46:40.000 | grandiose ideas.

00:46:42.000 | It's more, you know, we need to someday probably update our

00:46:46.600 | such-and-such software.

00:46:48.100 | I don't want to do this now.

00:46:49.700 | What's something we should probably do we should think

00:46:52.200 | about, you know, improving our setup for having calls on

00:46:55.900 | the podcast like something just I talked about that's like

00:46:57.700 | on a back burner list where I'm not working on it now, maybe

00:47:00.000 | but it's on a back burner list.

00:47:01.500 | So those are there then in my online note taking and right

00:47:06.100 | now use obsidian which we have a question about coming up.

00:47:08.300 | There's places in there.

00:47:10.200 | So I have a document in there for my academic research and

00:47:14.600 | in particular my academic research on impact of technology

00:47:18.200 | on society and digital ethics something.

00:47:19.900 | I'm just starting to do some more work on there's a page

00:47:22.700 | in my online note taking for that for the podcast and media

00:47:29.300 | company.

00:47:30.000 | There's another place where I keep track of visions for

00:47:32.300 | the future.

00:47:32.800 | That's too many places.

00:47:33.900 | So core idea one is yes, Alan is right.

00:47:37.800 | You need place or places you trust to keep ideas to the

00:47:40.300 | not going around your head to I have a system right now

00:47:45.100 | that is too distributed.

00:47:47.800 | So I want to fix it.

00:47:48.900 | What am I probably thinking about doing?

00:47:50.500 | I'm thinking about having some sort of rooted someday maybe

00:47:53.400 | set up where there's a core route to where all these ideas

00:47:57.200 | are stored like that's all I have to remember is the root

00:48:00.000 | that this is my someday maybe document in my online note

00:48:03.400 | taking software or my someday maybe directory in my Google

00:48:08.100 | Drive and then from there I can link out or spread out to

00:48:12.300 | here's stuff for this part of my life.

00:48:14.100 | Here's ideas for this part of my life.

00:48:15.200 | So I'm going to do something like that and I'm going to

00:48:17.800 | root my system, but it's a good question because I think

00:48:20.000 | it's a it's an important piece of organizing and intellectual

00:48:24.200 | life that we haven't talked much about you're going to put

00:48:27.200 | that on your someday.

00:48:27.900 | Maybe list.

00:48:28.600 | It's a circular irony improve your someday.

00:48:33.100 | Maybe list you put that on your I need to start a someday

00:48:36.500 | maybe list and I need to put that on my someday.

00:48:39.300 | Maybe list.

00:48:39.700 | I think this is the productivity nerd version of if a tree

00:48:42.200 | falls in the forest and no one's there to hear it.

00:48:44.300 | Well enough of that nonsense.

00:48:46.700 | All right, what do we got?

00:48:47.400 | Let's keep rolling.

00:48:48.500 | See I'm getting quicker now, Jesse.

00:48:50.200 | Okay picking up the pace.

00:48:51.500 | So next question is from Sam.

00:48:53.900 | He's a 28 year old PhD student and he says I found the 500

00:48:59.300 | words a day formula for slow productivity be to be a useful

00:49:02.700 | frame.

00:49:03.300 | However, as a PhD student in computer science a lot of my

00:49:06.400 | work doesn't involve much writing.

00:49:08.000 | How would I adapt the 500 words a day target for my research?

00:49:12.300 | So the context of the 500 words a day reference there from

00:49:18.200 | Sam is at some point.

00:49:20.000 | I don't know maybe a few months ago.

00:49:22.100 | We on the podcast.

00:49:23.800 | I talked about John McPhee and I think I was probably talking

00:49:28.500 | about an essay.

00:49:29.100 | I wrote for my newsletter, whatever.

00:49:31.300 | The point is I was emphasizing that John McPhee is seen in

00:49:36.300 | the context of his entire career as being very productive.

00:49:39.800 | He's written all these books.

00:49:41.000 | He has the Pulitzer's.

00:49:41.900 | He has the National Book Award and a huge bibliography, but

00:49:48.100 | he doesn't actually work that much on any given day.

00:49:52.100 | In fact, his target is he admits just to write 500 words a

00:49:54.700 | day. So this was a classic example of slow productivity.

00:49:58.100 | This working at this natural sustainable pace over time can

00:50:01.600 | produce great stuff.

00:50:03.200 | So if we expand the timeline at which we are evaluating

00:50:06.600 | productivity to be a career or the last 10 years as opposed

00:50:10.800 | to having a narrow timeline of today or the last week you get

00:50:14.600 | this much more sustainable rhythm of work.

00:50:16.800 | You don't have to be busy or killing yourself every day with

00:50:19.100 | work to produce stuff that you're proud of.

00:50:20.900 | Okay.

00:50:21.300 | So Sam is saying what is the equivalent of 500 words a day

00:50:25.700 | if you're not a writer?

00:50:26.600 | And I think that's a that's a good good question.

00:50:30.300 | So we could we could address this first of all just specifically

00:50:32.600 | in terms of Sam's particular context, which is a PhD student

00:50:37.000 | and you look I see that I feel your pain there Sam.

00:50:39.600 | I used to do a lot of appearances at boot camps graduate

00:50:45.000 | student dissertation boot camps that you see this at Georgetown.

00:50:47.600 | I would also do it at nearby Catholic University when I knew

00:50:51.000 | some professors over there.

00:50:52.000 | It's very common that you would do these once a year gatherings

00:50:55.800 | are called dissertation boot camps where grad students get

00:50:58.000 | together to hear talks and motivate each other to work on

00:51:01.800 | their dissertations and I was a broken record at these boot

00:51:05.800 | camps because all of the advice was always centered on right

00:51:11.000 | every day get your writing done.

00:51:12.900 | Don't forget to write because in a lot of disciplines writing

00:51:16.700 | is the actual primary activity that pushes a thesis forward

00:51:21.100 | not the case of mathematics not the case in computer science.

00:51:25.200 | You write papers eventually but research is not writing.

00:51:29.000 | It's solving math equations trying to figure out theorems

00:51:32.800 | running experiments.

00:51:33.600 | And so I used to come to these boot camps and I was a broken

00:51:36.200 | record.

00:51:36.700 | I would say stop saying writing is your generic verb for

00:51:39.800 | working for a lot of people.

00:51:42.000 | The core of their work has nothing to do with actually

00:51:43.600 | writing.

00:51:44.000 | So I feel your pain Sam writing is should not be seen as a

00:51:48.600 | universal verb for doing deep work in graduate school.

00:51:52.100 | But what I want to do here is generalize out and answer this

00:51:54.800 | for people in general.

00:51:56.200 | I don't want to get too academia specific.

00:51:58.800 | So let's just be in general.

00:52:00.200 | How do we translate this general philosophy of 500 words a

00:52:05.300 | day to other types of work?

00:52:09.000 | What I think is key here is this notion of slow and steady

00:52:15.800 | and timeline expansion.

00:52:17.200 | If you expand your timeline on which you are evaluating your

00:52:21.400 | productivity to something at the scale of years, then often

00:52:26.700 | a varied slow and steady approach is going to work quite

00:52:30.500 | well.

00:52:31.000 | And when you're evaluating your production on what you really

00:52:34.800 | care about at that type of expanded timeline, you begin to

00:52:37.900 | see the futility or the performative on necessity of really

00:52:45.100 | hard days.

00:52:45.900 | You know, I'm just burning the midnight oil.

00:52:49.600 | I've been writing all day.

00:52:50.500 | I'm going to write till midnight tonight and wake up really

00:52:53.100 | early to write you could do that and maybe in the moment,

00:52:55.800 | you'll be like man.

00:52:56.300 | I know I'm being productive because look how hard I'm working.

00:52:58.200 | But when you're talking about what do I produce over the

00:52:59.900 | next five years?

00:53:00.800 | That's not sustainable.

00:53:02.200 | It also doesn't really matter working quality work again

00:53:07.800 | and again in the right setting giving the work to respect

00:53:11.300 | and the support it needs to be good.

00:53:12.900 | Going up and down and intensely, you know what I'm taking

00:53:16.200 | a week off.

00:53:16.800 | I didn't get there tomorrow.

00:53:17.600 | I was sick today.

00:53:18.100 | I didn't write who cares.

00:53:19.000 | We're talking about the end of this year.

00:53:20.600 | Did you produce something that you're proud of and that is

00:53:23.300 | going to be best served by slow steady quality.

00:53:25.800 | So I think that's how we generalize John McPhee is 500 words

00:53:29.600 | a day is you don't have to be exhausted or frantic.

00:53:36.400 | Today to having ended up produce something great next year.

00:53:41.300 | You need to slowly accrete good quality work at a reasonable

00:53:47.100 | rate and that also happens to be a much more sustainable

00:53:49.800 | way to live and work.

00:53:51.000 | So, you know, that's what I would say slow steady.

00:53:54.500 | Don't not work but don't be so proud of yourself for you

00:53:59.400 | know, staying up real late.

00:54:01.000 | That just means you forgot a deadline and you will guaranteed

00:54:05.300 | win a Pulitzer Prize like John McPhee.

00:54:06.800 | All right, Jesse.

00:54:09.300 | What we got?

00:54:09.800 | All right.

00:54:11.300 | Next question is from Will.

00:54:13.200 | He's an economist from Tacoma Park.

00:54:15.300 | We won't be able to meet him at Republic.

00:54:17.600 | Did you say and he has to say did you say you are using Obsidian

00:54:21.900 | now?

00:54:22.300 | Why the switch from Rome?

00:54:23.800 | That's what yeah.

00:54:25.700 | Well, first of all, maybe it's what we should do with the

00:54:28.200 | Republic space is because I learned from Obsidian from another

00:54:31.300 | friend of mine in Tacoma Park.

00:54:33.100 | He's a big booster.

00:54:33.900 | So shout out to Scott.

00:54:35.900 | So me and Scott and will we could just create Republic into

00:54:40.400 | a space where people gather to geek out in incredible detail

00:54:45.300 | about various Zettelkasten inspired electronic note-taking

00:54:50.400 | systems.

00:54:50.900 | All right.

00:54:52.200 | Well, I did I am using Obsidian now for nerdish reasons.

00:54:56.800 | And just to give the the really high-level explanation Rome

00:55:03.100 | well, I like Rome to actually Rome has Rome has its uses.

00:55:07.100 | Well Rome is a nice interface Obsidian is based off of text

00:55:13.100 | files.

00:55:13.500 | So when you're taking notes in Obsidian, yeah, you have this

00:55:17.400 | interface or taking notes.

00:55:19.300 | You can link the notes together.

00:55:20.300 | But what you're doing is actually writing in what's known as

00:55:22.900 | markup.

00:55:23.600 | So just a generic markup language in text files and what the

00:55:28.500 | Obsidian interface is doing is just reading these text files

00:55:31.600 | that sit in a directory on your computer where you pointed it

00:55:34.800 | and it's just reading those text files and it's you can go in

00:55:37.900 | there and read them.

00:55:38.300 | It's just plain text with markup markup symbols around it to

00:55:41.600 | indicate this is bold.

00:55:42.600 | This is a list.

00:55:43.200 | This is a link and let's say if this links to something else

00:55:46.400 | and you know, it just the other document is just there in the

00:55:50.100 | markup.

00:55:50.700 | And so when you go through your notes and Obsidian, it's a

00:55:53.300 | nice interface.

00:55:53.900 | You can click around and format and do these type of things,

00:55:56.000 | but nothing lives in the cloud.

00:55:58.800 | There's not some proprietary format that's on a AWS instance

00:56:02.400 | somewhere.

00:56:02.800 | It's text files in your computer that you can go and read you

00:56:05.800 | can open it up in text edit.

00:56:07.100 | You can change it.

00:56:08.000 | And when you look at it with Obsidian, it will be you will

00:56:10.600 | see those changes.

00:56:11.300 | So Obsidian is just an interface that allows you to edit text

00:56:14.900 | files in your computer and displays those text files in a

00:56:18.100 | nice way.

00:56:18.700 | So I like that.

00:56:20.100 | It's full control.

00:56:20.900 | So Obsidian could go away.

00:56:22.000 | I have all my notes.

00:56:23.000 | I could read them just directly with a text editor or get any

00:56:26.400 | other type of markup reader that exists and still read those

00:56:29.000 | notes.

00:56:29.400 | I mean, I only need to use Obsidian because I might like

00:56:32.600 | its interface.

00:56:33.400 | Now I use Dropbox with synced backup.

00:56:37.400 | So like my Obsidian setup is in a directory that's auto synced

00:56:40.500 | to Dropbox.

00:56:41.100 | So all of these notes are automatically also updated and

00:56:44.400 | copied to Dropbox.

00:56:46.600 | So everything's backed up.

00:56:47.700 | And so if I get a new computer, I just re-sync to my Dropbox

00:56:51.200 | directory structure and I have those notes there.

00:56:53.000 | So the notes live in multiple places.

00:56:54.300 | I'm not going to lose them.

00:56:55.800 | Anyways, that's why I like it.

00:56:57.000 | It feels like a sophisticated version of my dependence on

00:57:01.700 | plain text files that I already use in other parts of my

00:57:04.300 | productivity.

00:57:05.000 | So that's a nerd reason.

00:57:06.500 | I think for a lot of people that doesn't really matter.

00:57:09.100 | So I would not use this reason as a general recommendation

00:57:14.300 | that everyone definitely needs to be on Obsidian.

00:57:16.400 | But if you're a CS nerd like me or presumably like Will, it

00:57:21.700 | is kind of cool.

00:57:25.500 | All right, so I want to try something somewhat new here.

00:57:28.100 | We're trying to do more case studies on this show.

00:57:30.500 | This is the feedback we got that people would like to hear

00:57:33.900 | more details about real people's experiences putting these

00:57:37.400 | ideas into practice.

00:57:38.500 | As I've mentioned, the medium term goal is a call.

00:57:43.800 | We want to have people call in live and actually interact

00:57:46.200 | with me.

00:57:46.600 | That's all complicated.

00:57:48.600 | Sound is complicated.

00:57:49.600 | Don't even get me started on that, but we're working on it.

00:57:51.500 | In the meantime, I'm also soliciting you can send in

00:57:55.200 | text case studies in the same question survey that you can

00:57:58.100 | use to submit your questions.

00:57:59.300 | That link is in the show notes, but I wanted to read one

00:58:01.200 | today from Josh.

00:58:03.600 | He was a network engineer who's in his 20s.

00:58:07.400 | All right.

00:58:08.800 | So here's what Josh had to say and I'll just read this a world

00:58:12.100 | without email got my team and me through a crisis.

00:58:15.600 | I got a copy of it on pre-order and it just after it arrived

00:58:20.800 | my wife and I went on vacation to Puerto Rico.

00:58:22.800 | It was really lovely being able to just read about a better

00:58:26.400 | way to work while sitting on the beach and returning home

00:58:29.300 | from vacation.

00:58:29.900 | My IT team suffered an unexpected crisis and I was thrown

00:58:36.700 | into a demanding management role.

00:58:38.900 | I'm the kind of person who likes to feel in control and

00:58:42.300 | the one mission I could give myself to preserve some sibilance

00:58:45.200 | of that feeling was to make sure that we didn't drop a single

00:58:47.800 | ball in response to this crisis.

00:58:50.300 | As a team, we had minimal shared documentation and we had

00:58:53.400 | no central work repository.

00:58:54.800 | So I didn't even know what engineering work was happening.

00:58:57.500 | My first thought was to collect all work items into a task

00:59:00.400 | board just like a world without email lays out, but I didn't

00:59:03.500 | have the time to wait for corporate procurement to approve

00:59:06.500 | an enterprise Trello subscription and we didn't have a way

00:59:09.800 | to get the team onto any sort of task board.

00:59:11.300 | So I ended up creating a minimum viable product out of folders

00:59:15.600 | on a shared drive.

00:59:18.200 | We had a folder called active work inside of that folder.

00:59:21.900 | We had a new folder for each work item.

00:59:24.200 | The folder name was a short description of the task itself

00:59:28.500 | inside that folder was a notes dot txt file that detailed

00:59:32.800 | the task any emails pertaining to the task were copied and

00:59:36.600 | pasted into an emails dot txt file.

00:59:40.100 | Any working documents were also saved in that folder.

00:59:45.200 | So for example, we might have a folder named design data

00:59:49.800 | center core that would contain a notes dot txt file detailing

00:59:54.400 | all the design considerations and a working diagram and

00:59:58.400 | a spreadsheet also in that folder.

00:59:59.900 | If I were to take ownership of a task, I would modify the

01:00:03.200 | folder name to indicate that.

01:00:05.400 | So now it might say Josh colon design data center core that

01:00:10.800 | way an alphabetical sort of the active work folder would isolate

01:00:13.900 | all of my work as I finished a task.

01:00:16.300 | I would update the notes dot txt file with closeout notes

01:00:19.600 | and change the folder name to completed colon Josh colon

01:00:24.400 | design data center core.

01:00:26.600 | We could focus exclusively on a task by opening that folder.

01:00:30.000 | We could share notes and feedback between team members by

01:00:32.700 | dropping a txt file in that folder.

01:00:34.400 | We could see work in progress at a glance.

01:00:36.800 | We had a way to gather detailed information about a task

01:00:39.000 | without actually having to own the task and start working

01:00:41.400 | on it.

01:00:42.600 | We only use that system for a couple of months, but it

01:00:44.400 | accomplished its goal.

01:00:45.800 | We didn't drop or forget even a single task.

01:00:48.600 | There were no external teams at my company that felt like

01:00:51.700 | they needed to escalate issues to my manager.

01:00:53.900 | We were able to share the increased workload to the team,

01:00:57.500 | even though I was primarily the one collecting information

01:01:00.000 | about work items.

01:01:00.800 | From there, we were able to move to a real task board and

01:01:04.400 | 18 months later, our little team is now seen as an agile

01:01:07.400 | transformation leader within our broader organization.

01:01:11.600 | All right, it's a cool case study because two reasons.

01:01:14.400 | One, it highlights something I say often on this show, which

01:01:21.100 | is when it comes to organizing work, especially in teams,

01:01:24.400 | start with the process first.

01:01:27.100 | What makes the most sense for us to organize our work and

01:01:31.300 | then to figure out what tools you need to implement that.

01:01:35.300 | And that is exactly what Josh did in that story because

01:01:38.800 | they couldn't procure the right tools fast enough.

01:01:41.500 | They said, we can just use text files and folder names and

01:01:44.600 | it worked great.

01:01:45.400 | What mattered was the process.

01:01:47.500 | And then once they got approval to switch to a task board,

01:01:49.400 | oh, they switched to a task board, but it was that process

01:01:52.600 | that they switched to a task board and it didn't really

01:01:54.300 | matter if they were implementing it by changing the name

01:01:57.300 | of folders or if they're on a Trello board, it was the

01:02:00.300 | same process.

01:02:01.100 | And so I think that's really cool to see.

01:02:03.100 | And then two, I just like that specific setup.

01:02:05.700 | That's a cool system.

01:02:08.200 | Right?

01:02:08.700 | Folders for each thing that we're actively working on,

01:02:11.300 | all of the information relevant to that thing, go into

01:02:14.600 | that folder, including relevant emails, have a key read

01:02:18.200 | me file in each folder that gives you the overview of

01:02:20.500 | exactly where everything lands, put your name into the

01:02:23.200 | directory title.

01:02:24.600 | So we know who's working on what.

01:02:26.100 | That's a great system.

01:02:27.100 | And see what Josh said there.

01:02:29.000 | Josh said all of the incoming was directed at him.

01:02:34.100 | So it's this was a, in his elaboration, he said,

01:02:37.300 | "IT team within a big organization."

01:02:39.100 | So IT teams get hammered with, "Build us this, fix this,

01:02:44.000 | add this new feature, implement this system."

01:02:47.000 | It's all day long.

01:02:48.600 | It all came to Josh.

01:02:50.400 | And yet he said he felt like all this work was very

01:02:55.000 | intelligently distributed to the whole team.

01:02:58.600 | Everyone was working on different things, beautiful

01:03:00.800 | collaboration.

01:03:01.600 | And because they built a process here that made sense.

01:03:05.700 | So anyways, great example, Josh, I appreciate that

01:03:09.600 | those specifics and I appreciate that opportunity to

01:03:12.900 | talk about when you get specific about workflows, as

01:03:15.500 | opposed to just saying, "Look, we're all on Slack.

01:03:17.100 | Let's rock and roll."

01:03:17.900 | Things can get a lot better.

01:03:19.000 | I like how he says when he does the alphabetical search,

01:03:22.900 | it can just show all his work right there.

01:03:24.700 | There's definitely an IT labor to that system.

01:03:28.100 | Yeah.

01:03:28.700 | Well, if you put your name in the folder and you can

01:03:30.700 | alphabetize folders, but it's not a big deal.

01:03:34.500 | You can alphabetize folders.

01:03:35.900 | But it is true.

01:03:36.700 | Like existing technology is great.

01:03:39.900 | Yeah, that's not the problem.

01:03:41.200 | The problem is not that someone hasn't built a fancy

01:03:44.100 | web interface for what you're trying to do.

01:03:46.100 | The problem is you don't have a system.

01:03:47.700 | That you're just on email like, "Did you get my last

01:03:50.700 | message? Why didn't you respond?"

01:03:51.700 | Good for you, Josh.

01:03:54.900 | All right.

01:03:58.000 | Let me talk about a sponsor real quick before we move

01:04:01.000 | on to our second block of questions.

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01:05:27.100 | Which book?

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01:05:33.200 | And the thing I like about it is because you listen

01:05:36.800 | to a lot of podcasts, you read a lot of articles

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01:05:43.500 | So it's a good little way to maybe cross off some

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01:05:51.100 | an idea of.

01:05:51.900 | That's a smart idea.

01:05:53.100 | Yeah, so you listen to a podcast, you hear seven

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01:05:55.900 | Do the blinks for all seven books.

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01:06:55.800 | I was laughing when I was thinking about you

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01:07:06.400 | open up the blink and it says E equals MC squared.

01:07:09.400 | It was talking about that actually.

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01:07:15.000 | All right, one of the sponsor want to mention

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01:09:33.700 | Oh, we're doing well.

01:09:34.300 | All right.

01:09:34.700 | So let's move on to our second block of questions.

01:09:36.500 | What we tried to do here is as we often do try

01:09:40.700 | to do is make the second block a little bit more

01:09:42.600 | deep life philosophical first block.

01:09:44.800 | We got into the weeds on some things second

01:09:47.900 | block will get a little more philosophical here.

01:09:51.200 | So what do we got Jesse?

01:09:53.000 | All right, first question here.

01:09:55.300 | It's an anonymous question and it states, how do

01:09:59.300 | you think about long-term career or work issues

01:10:01.500 | in the face of seemingly growing accidental threats

01:10:04.500 | such as climate change economic disparity in the

01:10:07.100 | world and new technologies such as AI?

01:10:09.900 | I mean, I think the key there is stop using so

01:10:15.100 | much social media stop reading so much online

01:10:18.300 | news and let me let me explain where I'm coming

01:10:22.300 | from with that answer.

01:10:23.100 | First.

01:10:24.100 | Let's begin with the premise that there always

01:10:27.300 | has been and there will always be to varying

01:10:30.100 | degrees up and down a lot of distressing stuff

01:10:32.500 | happening in the world.

01:10:35.300 | There is nothing exceptional about our current

01:10:38.700 | moment.

01:10:39.300 | I think back in a certain circumstance like this

01:10:42.600 | thing about a question like this.

01:10:43.400 | I think back to the Irish Christian monastics.

01:10:48.400 | Of the early medieval period the late dark ages.

01:10:51.500 | This was a very rough time.

01:10:54.100 | There was a lot of bad things happening.

01:10:56.400 | There were diseases that could kill 30 40 percent

01:11:00.800 | of a population of a continent in just a couple

01:11:03.100 | of years.

01:11:03.800 | There was no political stability.

01:11:07.200 | These monasteries were often raided by for example,

01:11:11.800 | Vikings where everyone would just be murdered.

01:11:16.000 | This was not a time where you're like, yeah.

01:11:17.500 | Pretty peaceful.

01:11:18.900 | I'm pretty happy about things.

01:11:20.000 | But what were those Irish monastics doing?

01:11:22.200 | They were very carefully preserving and copying

01:11:24.700 | over a lot of the intellectual fruits of the

01:11:28.000 | ancient period and you know what we're glad they

01:11:30.200 | were we're glad they worked in this terrible time

01:11:33.200 | because it was actually in a lot of these

01:11:34.600 | monasteries that we maintain our only copies of

01:11:37.800 | some of the key ancient philosophical and

01:11:40.000 | mathematical text that then helped spur the

01:11:41.700 | Renaissance a couple hundred years later.

01:11:44.800 | There's actually a book about that.

01:11:45.900 | I read called how the Irish saved the world and

01:11:48.200 | it goes what's called but I use that example

01:11:49.900 | to say in much worse circumstances of our today

01:11:53.900 | people working on things that are important

01:11:56.000 | ended up being really important for humanity.

01:11:59.800 | We are glad that our forebearers in much worse

01:12:04.000 | situations than today that had to deal with

01:12:06.700 | the entire continent is half dead and will

01:12:09.500 | probably be murdered within a week.

01:12:10.900 | That is worse.

01:12:11.700 | That is a worse situation than we are unsure

01:12:14.200 | about what the average temperature increase is

01:12:16.100 | going to be over the next 100 years.

01:12:17.500 | They still worked on what they thought was

01:12:19.300 | important.

01:12:19.900 | They still pursued a deep life and we are all

01:12:23.000 | the better for it.

01:12:23.700 | So that's the example I wanted to give there.

01:12:25.600 | You know Ezra Klein had he wrote an article

01:12:29.700 | New York Times op-ed about this a couple months

01:12:31.500 | ago where he was hearing this about climate

01:12:36.200 | change in particular.

01:12:37.300 | He was hearing more and more people from his

01:12:40.800 | circle who are saying well, why why would we

01:12:43.200 | even bother having kids?

01:12:45.600 | How would we why would we even bother trying

01:12:48.600 | to perpetuate humanity because of how bad

01:12:52.200 | climate change is going to be and Ezra was

01:12:54.400 | like look, I'm very concerned about this topic.

01:12:56.200 | Obviously, I'm very much, you know, progressive

01:12:58.400 | on this topic, but my god, we had kids as a

01:13:01.500 | species in much worse times with much worse

01:13:04.600 | things happening on the horizon and much worse

01:13:06.600 | things happening at the moment.

01:13:08.000 | We still continue to perpetuate the species

01:13:10.500 | and we're glad we are because we want to be

01:13:12.000 | here and all the all of the good and the art

01:13:14.700 | and the beauty and the love that has been

01:13:16.200 | formed that all those centuries past all these

01:13:18.100 | other past hard times.

01:13:19.000 | We're glad that all existed and we're better

01:13:20.400 | for it.

01:13:20.800 | So so even as our client had to write something

01:13:23.900 | that says guys ease up a little bit right like

01:13:27.500 | we Humanity faces tough stuff.

01:13:29.200 | All right.

01:13:30.300 | So that's my generic answer to that question.

01:13:32.400 | The reason why I cited social media and online

01:13:34.700 | news was just to emphasize that both of those

01:13:36.700 | things can make this reaction worse.

01:13:41.000 | I think we're getting this question in part

01:13:42.800 | because there's the online culture for various

01:13:45.200 | reasons some intentional some unintentional

01:13:47.100 | can give you this sense of immediate existential

01:13:51.000 | threat that is paralyzing in a way that let's

01:13:54.500 | say in a pre-internet age wouldn't have and so

01:13:58.900 | I was being somewhat facetious when I said my

01:14:00.900 | answer to your question is how do I do this?

01:14:02.300 | I don't use social media.

01:14:03.300 | I was being sort of facetious, but I'm also

01:14:05.200 | being somewhat serious.

01:14:06.600 | There's a couple different effects going on

01:14:09.000 | here.

01:14:09.600 | Certainly there's the police blotter effect.

01:14:12.300 | Start reading the police bought water for your

01:14:15.200 | town and suddenly it will seem a lot more violent

01:14:18.500 | and crime-ridden than you thought about it

01:14:19.800 | before it's because you are seeing consolidated

01:14:22.700 | all the bad things that have happened over time

01:14:24.600 | in a relatively large area concentrated in our

01:14:27.300 | mind is not used to that.

01:14:28.600 | It's used to gathering aggregating observations

01:14:31.800 | from our actual immediate vicinity.

01:14:34.100 | I saw a crime happen the last three days in a

01:14:38.900 | row.

01:14:39.400 | This is dangerous, right?

01:14:41.000 | Like that's the way we're supposed to see things.

01:14:42.700 | It doesn't this warning system is not good at

01:14:45.800 | here's a list of all crimes from this million

01:14:48.300 | person City over the last six months.

01:14:50.100 | It can't put that in the statistical scale the

01:14:53.700 | internet makes that even worse.

01:14:55.400 | So now you have Twitter cybernetic curation

01:14:59.300 | distributed curation algorithm.

01:15:00.600 | So the effect of all these individuals making

01:15:02.500 | retweet non retweet decisions all pushing

01:15:04.500 | and pulsing through a power law graph topology

01:15:06.400 | graph does a really good job of centering

01:15:08.700 | surfacing things that are interesting or engaging

01:15:11.800 | or will catch our attention and all these bad

01:15:13.700 | things are happening.

01:15:14.300 | The world course to this network and all get

01:15:16.300 | brought to your attention.

01:15:17.100 | It's like the police blotter effect magnified

01:15:19.700 | like man, it's just crime everywhere.

01:15:21.200 | Everything's falling apart or if it's political

01:15:22.800 | news democracy is days away days away from

01:15:26.700 | from failing or first climate change news.

01:15:28.500 | It's like I'm surprised I even am alive today.

01:15:31.500 | Like how is anyone alive because it is essentially

01:15:34.300 | the day after tomorrow style vortexes of Arctic

01:15:39.500 | tornadoes destroying cities as far as I can tell

01:15:41.700 | because there's all these things I'm seeing

01:15:43.100 | because the volume I see so many things in such

01:15:46.400 | a large volume of these things.

01:15:47.600 | This must be a real problem.

01:15:48.800 | Our mind cannot do statistical modeling of like

01:15:52.500 | yeah, but this is over 350 million people in

01:15:55.500 | the country.

01:15:56.000 | I don't know.

01:15:56.300 | That's probably not that many.

01:15:57.300 | So social media can do that.

01:16:00.200 | You also have to be worried about sensationalism.

01:16:03.700 | There's this idea of like it if it bleeds it

01:16:06.400 | leads news sources are trying to get clicks.

01:16:08.400 | I think that's partially true, right?

01:16:10.600 | I mean, I mean, I think that is true.

01:16:12.100 | So like being sensationalist and talking about

01:16:15.000 | how bad things are maybe is good business.

01:16:18.000 | There's also something else that's happening

01:16:20.600 | now. I mean, I read this interesting analysis

01:16:22.300 | from the Niemann Center about sort of recent

01:16:27.200 | developments and a lot of sort of mainstream

01:16:31.600 | media publications where there's a few different

01:16:34.800 | things going on here.

01:16:35.900 | But like one of the things that's going on

01:16:37.100 | is there's definitely more specifically more

01:16:40.100 | of a sense and this kind of comes out of the

01:16:42.300 | linguistic background of criticality and critical

01:16:44.500 | theories, but there's definitely more the sense

01:16:45.900 | that the role of reporting is in part trying

01:16:49.600 | to actually shape the world.

01:16:51.300 | So part of your job as a reporter is to try

01:16:54.100 | to push the world towards what is just so I

01:16:58.000 | think that the dominant academic theories right

01:17:00.700 | now come out of French postmodernism, which

01:17:04.900 | has a real linguistic deconstructionist

01:17:06.500 | background. So it's very language focused and

01:17:08.300 | it's like you can't just be neutral as a writer

01:17:10.000 | according to these theories.

01:17:10.800 | You're going to affect the world one way or

01:17:12.200 | the other. So you need to aim yourself towards

01:17:14.100 | what is the good and so you might see this

01:17:16.400 | and there's like obvious applications like sort

01:17:18.400 | of post Donald Trump election.

01:17:20.700 | You're going to see coverage philosophy.

01:17:23.000 | That's like really what we're trying to do

01:17:24.300 | here is this is such an existential threat is

01:17:26.300 | like our reporting needs to help.

01:17:28.900 | Don't report something that could be positive

01:17:30.700 | for example, because the bigger issue of we

01:17:33.800 | need this person in office would not be

01:17:35.200 | certified that I think some of that is bled

01:17:37.100 | over into other types of issues.

01:17:38.900 | I think we're seeing a little bit of that with

01:17:40.400 | climate change.

01:17:41.200 | So a serious issue to be addressed, but there's

01:17:44.200 | also a sense in the reporting of trying to

01:17:48.500 | challenge the people who are not worried about

01:17:52.800 | it. So typically this would be on the other

01:17:54.600 | political tribe. Well, I dare you not to be

01:17:57.500 | worried about it now.

01:17:58.300 | Well, what if we ratchet up now?

01:18:00.500 | I dare you.

01:18:01.300 | Well here here you're going to be dead all your

01:18:05.000 | here's a headlight.

01:18:05.700 | All of your children will be dead by Sunday

01:18:07.400 | because of climate change.

01:18:08.100 | Now, I dare you to say you don't care.

01:18:09.500 | There's this sort of one up upsmanship that

01:18:11.700 | you've seen in the coverage of climate change

01:18:13.600 | even where the on the ground information hasn't

01:18:17.200 | changed much.

01:18:17.900 | There's still the same concerns and whatever

01:18:19.600 | is you see this one upsmanship of well, what

01:18:22.400 | about this thread or that thread?

01:18:23.600 | We're going to put on the page more and we're

01:18:24.800 | going to try to ratchet it up.

01:18:25.900 | And again that that comes out of this new

01:18:27.600 | philosophy perhaps of journalism is trying to

01:18:32.500 | advance towards the just and away from the

01:18:34.500 | non-just you get more of that to there some of

01:18:36.300 | that early in the pandemic as well where okay,

01:18:39.300 | what's the pandemic policy that we think is

01:18:42.200 | going to be the best?

01:18:43.400 | How do we then in a reporting be careful to

01:18:45.700 | support that don't talk about this this would

01:18:47.600 | see doubt really push this.

01:18:49.400 | Oh, look, there's a there's a some popularity

01:18:52.600 | going around this idea.

01:18:53.600 | This doesn't affect young people as quickly get

01:18:55.400 | on our front page a proper pro of nothing an

01:18:59.000 | article about a third-year-old who died because

01:19:00.600 | we need to push back on that.

01:19:01.800 | So once you see coverage trying to shape how

01:19:06.200 | people trying to shape how people understand

01:19:10.000 | things are trying to push things towards the

01:19:11.500 | just on alarming issues like climate change or

01:19:14.800 | the pandemic you're going to get also increasingly

01:19:17.400 | alarming coverage because that in theory would

01:19:20.400 | serve the purpose of getting people to care

01:19:21.700 | more but it has a side effect of getting people

01:19:24.200 | who say why should I even work?

01:19:25.600 | All right, that's a bunch of words, but honestly

01:19:30.100 | get more local serve your community serve your

01:19:34.100 | friends care about the people around you move

01:19:37.200 | more of your attention landscape to the to the

01:19:40.600 | locality that your brain evolved to expect which

01:19:43.200 | is these are people in my town and people my

01:19:45.800 | organizations spend more time immersed in that

01:19:48.900 | world. You're scaling the concerns concerns your

01:19:53.000 | brain can deal with and concerns where you can

01:19:54.700 | actually make a difference.

01:19:56.200 | I do not subscribe to this idea that you are

01:19:58.400 | somehow not being a good global citizen. If

01:20:00.500 | you're not marinating yourself and story after

01:20:04.000 | story about negative things that you can't do

01:20:06.100 | anything about I guarantee you you will still

01:20:08.600 | know about climate change. Even if you're not

01:20:10.500 | surfing every day 10 or 15 climate change damage

01:20:14.500 | porn type articles. You'll still know about it.

01:20:16.800 | But instead of surfing those 15 articles, how

01:20:18.700 | about we want to fix the playground that's down

01:20:23.100 | the road because it's a good place these kids

01:20:25.100 | after school. They need it. They don't have it

01:20:26.700 | here. How do we get that change? That's the scale

01:20:28.400 | at which our mind supposed to work. So let's

01:20:29.900 | spend more time more time there.

01:20:31.900 | All right, what time we got here? I think we

01:20:37.100 | got time for one more question Jesse. Okay, so

01:20:40.300 | we got a question from Michael. He's a 41 41

01:20:43.300 | year old engineer from the UK. This is what he

01:20:45.800 | has to say. I have worked hard to clarify ideas

01:20:49.300 | outside of my work that feel important to me.

01:20:51.300 | However, I still struggle. For example, creating

01:20:54.900 | a garden is something I've always envisioned my

01:20:56.800 | life for a long time. But now that I'm doing it

01:20:59.400 | it feels like endless drudgery, labor and effort.

01:21:02.400 | However, I've sunk so much effort and expense

01:21:04.700 | into getting here. I cannot just reset and walk

01:21:07.300 | away. Is it normal to find conflict between

01:21:10.100 | one's cultivation of a deep life on paper and

01:21:12.700 | how it actually happens in the real world?

01:21:16.300 | That's an interesting question. Let me give you

01:21:19.100 | a short answer and a long answer Michael. The

01:21:20.800 | short answer is stop gardening. I won't tell

01:21:24.200 | anyone Jesse won't tell anyone. You don't like

01:21:27.100 | it and I get it. Like here in DC. Here's what

01:21:30.100 | I've learned. It's often the season in which

01:21:32.900 | you would be maintaining a garden or a yard.

01:21:34.800 | It's often terrible outside and it's not that

01:21:37.300 | fun because the humidity is roughly whatever

01:21:44.300 | it is. I don't know how to measure humidity.

01:21:45.400 | I guess Dew point the humidity is terrible.

01:21:47.200 | You're in a swamp. It's hot. There's bugs and

01:21:49.600 | there's mosquitoes and you know, this is why

01:21:51.500 | God invented air conditioning. So I'm stop

01:21:53.400 | gardening. You don't like it long answer and

01:21:57.200 | we talked about this last week to be wary about

01:22:00.900 | a mental conception of the deep life that is

01:22:04.200 | too heavily focused on hobbies. That is not

01:22:09.000 | going to be a successful recipe. If all you

01:22:10.700 | think about is what do I do outside of work in

01:22:14.100 | terms of my leisure time? What's going to be

01:22:15.900 | like interesting and fulfilling to me. It's

01:22:18.000 | too self-focused that stuff matters, but it

01:22:21.300 | cannot be central to your conception of the

01:22:23.600 | deep life. If you go back and think about the

01:22:26.100 | deep life bucket. So we're talking about craft

01:22:28.500 | community Constitution contemplation and

01:22:31.600 | celebration. What you talk about as hobbies is

01:22:34.600 | maybe just in celebration. I mean, I don't know

01:22:38.600 | if you acted the Constitution maybe like there's

01:22:41.400 | some exercise you do that could be hobbyist

01:22:44.000 | sometimes in craft. There could be something

01:22:46.600 | like you're really into an instrument. You might

01:22:47.900 | put that in the craft, but most of the deep life

01:22:50.400 | is more about keeping your body in shape serving

01:22:54.800 | your community. Engage in your brain in the

01:22:58.000 | world of ideas and philosophy and theology so

01:23:00.000 | that you can be a moral intellectual being so

01:23:03.200 | that you can follow Aristotle's theory that it

01:23:06.800 | is in deep thought that humans reach their

01:23:08.900 | deepest potential. It's craft. Okay. I'm spending

01:23:12.500 | my 80,000 hours in my life in a job. Like what

01:23:15.700 | am I doing? Am I producing things of value? Am

01:23:18.100 | I am I a leader to other people? Am I a useful

01:23:21.000 | member of my community? A lot of that is not

01:23:23.500 | what's going to make me, you know, entertain me

01:23:26.700 | what's going to be something that's kind of fun

01:23:29.000 | to do. And so if you really go through those

01:23:31.300 | buckets one by one, the reason why this works

01:23:33.300 | is that the human brain is not so happy. If all

01:23:37.500 | it thinks about is how do I make myself happy?

01:23:39.100 | You know, how do I be happy in the moment? Like

01:23:41.800 | that's important in moderation, but basically

01:23:45.600 | the history of ideas tells us that just the

01:23:47.900 | hedonic pursuit of what's going to be fun doesn't

01:23:52.200 | work as an organizing principle for life. So

01:23:54.800 | when celebration is just this one part, like

01:23:56.700 | having things you really enjoy doing, then it's

01:23:58.700 | the stakes are lower. You know, you're doing

01:24:01.900 | other things that sacrifice and service and

01:24:04.000 | important and you're going to be a lot more

01:24:05.800 | confident and fulfilled. And then when it comes

01:24:08.700 | to that, let's say celebration bucket where it's

01:24:10.400 | like appreciating the things that makes life

01:24:12.000 | cool having gratitude. Then I'm just going to

01:24:14.100 | suggest have a more experimental approach. Don't

01:24:16.700 | dive in fully into something that you hope will

01:24:19.700 | be something you really like because you might

01:24:21.400 | not. So garden, I don't know. Let me get a

01:24:24.600 | garden box and see if I like that minimal impact.

01:24:27.600 | If I really like it expand out with that bucket

01:24:30.700 | larger and larger people who have these big

01:24:33.300 | all-consuming hobbies usually work their way

01:24:35.100 | incrementally. You have to discover what's the

01:24:36.700 | right fit for you. So just don't go into it.

01:24:40.200 | Don't just say like I want to be a cinephile. I

01:24:42.700 | think that'd be cool. I'm going to sign up for

01:24:44.800 | this film course and start watching all these

01:24:46.300 | movies. You might not actually like movies that

01:24:47.900 | much. You're right. But instead if you're like,

01:24:49.800 | I've always liked movies and I've started to

01:24:52.600 | study them a little more and I'm enjoying that.

01:24:54.400 | So now let me ratchet up to like go watch this

01:24:56.800 | series at the local theater. Now. I'm going to

01:24:58.600 | sign up for this film class when things ratchet

01:25:00.700 | up in terms of self-directed autonomous

01:25:03.100 | non-instrumental hobbies. That's how you figure

01:25:05.600 | out what you really like. Okay, so stop gardening.

01:25:07.500 | You don't like that experiment with other things,

01:25:09.600 | but remember that is just one small piece out

01:25:12.200 | of many on what goes into making a deep life

01:25:14.000 | and most of what makes a deep life deep is much

01:25:15.900 | less about what is going to make me happy tomorrow

01:25:18.600 | and more about what's going to make my life feel

01:25:20.300 | more grounded. What's going to make my life feel

01:25:22.900 | more centered and meaningful and important and

01:25:26.000 | that's very different than enjoying pruning your

01:25:30.500 | roses. Let's see here. We had a couple of the

01:25:35.400 | questions, but I think this is probably a good

01:25:37.100 | probably good place to wrap it up.

01:25:40.100 | Sounds good. All right, everyone. Thank you for

01:25:43.900 | submitting your questions. If you want to submit

01:25:46.200 | your own questions, look at the link in the show

01:25:48.500 | notes and I'll show you exactly how to do that.

01:25:50.600 | You can watch a video of this episode and clips

01:25:53.700 | at youtube.com/calnewportmedia. We'll be back

01:25:56.900 | next week with a new episode and until then as

01:26:00.000 | always stay deep.

01:26:02.200 | [Music]

Ep. 214: Quiet Quitting | Deep Questions With Cal Newport

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