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00:00:00.000 | I am James Hong and welcome to the Surpassing Value Podcast.
00:00:15.620 | The fuel and desire for this podcast was born out of a compulsion to flesh out what's
00:00:19.740 | been going on in the midst of an ocean of megaphones that may not actually withstand
00:00:24.600 | the test of scrutiny.
00:00:26.620 | As a signpost theologian, I will do my best to filter out the impurities and point people
00:00:32.320 | in the right direction.
00:00:39.740 | In this episode, we continue on with the Magodeo series and once again Dr. Chang and I discuss
00:00:45.960 | issues related to the conception of life, this time something a bit more practical and
00:00:51.000 | close to home.
00:00:52.780 | In this episode, we dig into the particulars of IVF.
00:00:56.980 | So before you listen, let me say that we both understand that this is an incredibly sensitive
00:01:02.420 | subject.
00:01:03.420 | Not only is it sensitive, it's heartbreaking, it's deeply personal.
00:01:09.820 | Nobody is here to kick anyone while they're down or judge people for being in circumstances
00:01:16.580 | they never thought that they would be in.
00:01:19.540 | At the same time, you could understand to not dive into this subject when so much is
00:01:25.700 | at stake would only be to compound tragedy upon tragedy.
00:01:30.680 | So my hope, my prayer for this episode and for this series is that it serves to edify
00:01:36.980 | and not tear down the body.
00:01:40.260 | Alright, as stated, I am joined by Dr. Jeremiah Chang and we are going to do this.
00:01:52.460 | We're going to talk about a subject that is rightfully deeply personal and intimate.
00:02:01.000 | A subject that has caused a lot of heartache and rightly so, infertility is not an easy
00:02:09.900 | issue to talk about and yet we in a sense must because life is just that precious and
00:02:20.500 | a lot of people have utilized IVF and are considering using IVF or have questions about
00:02:29.420 | it and I think that with respect to the technology that is out there, we do need to have just
00:02:38.060 | a firmer grasp of how that technology relates with our biblical principles.
00:02:44.620 | And Jeremiah and I, I asked him to call in this episode because we've had many talks
00:02:51.820 | about this issue especially after Bible study and him having his medical degree but also
00:03:00.380 | not just his medical degree but just the amount of research that has gone into this.
00:03:04.980 | I think it would help shed light on this.
00:03:08.500 | So Jeremiah, with that said, let's start off by, I want to ask you this question, what
00:03:16.940 | is IVF?
00:03:17.940 | What is it?
00:03:18.940 | Yeah, so IVF is a procedure in vitro fertilization.
00:03:24.380 | So normally fertilization, as most probably know, is when egg and sperm meet, usually
00:03:31.940 | in the fallopian tube, and that's the point of conception, the point when life begins.
00:03:38.380 | So in vitro, in vitro in glass, that's what it means, just really is referred to as outside
00:03:45.420 | of the uterus, the fallopian tube environment, that's when fertilization takes place.
00:03:51.160 | So usually that happens in a lab and the process involves many steps but you would harvest
00:04:00.180 | eggs from the woman and then collect sperm from the male and then you would fertilize
00:04:08.620 | them.
00:04:09.620 | There are different methods of fertilization but the end result is the production of children
00:04:18.340 | and that's in a short what IVF is, it's simply the creation of children outside the
00:04:25.180 | womb.
00:04:26.180 | And you and I would agree that scripture is clear on this issue, that before an egg
00:04:35.340 | and a sperm meet, because I think you used the word fertilized egg, a fertilized egg
00:04:39.500 | is just when a sperm meets with the egg, right?
00:04:43.500 | And so life begins when that happens, when the sperm actually goes into the egg.
00:04:52.840 | Before that sperm by itself is not life, an egg by itself is not life, but when they meet
00:05:00.820 | and when an egg is fertilized by that sperm, you have a human being at that point.
00:05:07.900 | Exactly, yes.
00:05:09.300 | So in the medical world we call a sperm and egg haploid cells, meaning they contain one
00:05:15.900 | set of DNA and then when they combine, we call that cell, a fertilized egg is essentially
00:05:23.240 | a zygote.
00:05:24.240 | It's the combination of DNA, it's a diploid cell.
00:05:27.920 | So at that point when a zygote has its unique DNA, it's separate from the sperm and the
00:05:35.600 | egg.
00:05:36.600 | It's the combination of it that creates the zygote which is the child.
00:05:40.560 | So at that point when that happens, everything that is needed for that child to grow, all
00:05:49.600 | the genetic information is already there, is that correct?
00:05:52.400 | That's correct, yes.
00:05:53.540 | And this is a person that has never existed before.
00:05:57.240 | Yes, exactly.
00:05:58.880 | And we were all there, every single live person started just like that diploid cell way.
00:06:04.960 | Exactly, yes.
00:06:06.200 | There's no other way that life can begin, that is the way that God has created it to
00:06:10.880 | be.
00:06:11.880 | Yes.
00:06:12.880 | So when we talk about IVF, it's different from just traditional child production in
00:06:25.920 | the sense that, like you mentioned, it happens outside the womb.
00:06:31.160 | A lot of people will typically seek in vitro fertilization because there's something that
00:06:38.520 | is not working.
00:06:39.520 | I don't want to say the word working, but something has gone wrong where the couple
00:06:47.520 | cannot conceive naturally.
00:06:50.160 | And so it could be the male, it could be the female.
00:06:53.560 | And so in that sense, they'll go to an IVF clinic to seek assistance.
00:07:00.120 | The issue is, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, Jeremiah, I don't know of an IVF clinic
00:07:07.920 | that believes life begins at conception.
00:07:12.200 | Yes, I would say nearly always, almost always, yes.
00:07:19.480 | That's correct.
00:07:20.480 | I mean, the only exception, of course, are maybe the few that are involved in embryo
00:07:24.760 | adoption specifically, and they are fertility doctors that are involved in IVF in the sense
00:07:32.560 | of helping families with embryo adoption.
00:07:42.020 | So I would say, like you said, nearly all of them do not hold the same worldview that
00:07:48.440 | life begins at conception.
00:07:49.880 | And that, of course, plays out in the way that they discuss the procedure, in the way
00:07:54.840 | they encourage certain procedures to happen, in all the decisions that a couple has to
00:08:01.280 | make through the IVF process.
00:08:03.280 | All of that gets shaped in a specific way by the doctor because of their worldview.
00:08:09.880 | Yeah, and so I think it's a fair summation to say, unless you're going to go through
00:08:16.240 | embryonic adoption, which we talked about in the previous episode, any IVF clinic that
00:08:23.000 | you just Google, that clinic is not going to share a biblical worldview.
00:08:29.440 | And we share that because you kind of investigated what goes on in IVF clinics.
00:08:39.080 | You know the questions they ask you and the procedures they kind of push.
00:08:43.600 | And so they push these procedures and they push these recommendations because to them,
00:08:50.500 | they're not thinking life begins at conception.
00:08:54.980 | And so if something were to happen to, let's say, one out of 10 embryos, it's not a life
00:09:02.040 | that is lost.
00:09:03.040 | It's an embryo.
00:09:04.040 | It's something less than life that is lost.
00:09:08.040 | That's going to really affect what they say to the patron, to the person who's undergoing
00:09:17.200 | the procedure.
00:09:18.200 | But that also means that if you do decide to go to an IVF clinic to undergo IVF, particularly
00:09:25.960 | as Christians, that there are some things that we need to kind of be aware of.
00:09:30.440 | Is that fair to say?
00:09:32.000 | Yeah, absolutely.
00:09:33.000 | And I think probably the most obvious way that gets manifested is the encouragement
00:09:42.080 | of fertility doctors to basically encourage the maximal creation of children, numerically,
00:09:52.520 | in quantity.
00:09:53.520 | I mean, and there's a lot of reasons for that because again, their end goal is to provide
00:09:59.480 | what they believe most of their patrons want, which is a "healthy, genetically normal child".
00:10:08.520 | And so if that's the end goal, then to maximize the chances of that happening, they want to
00:10:15.080 | create as many children so that they can select for the ones that have the greatest probability
00:10:20.760 | of eventually manifesting into a born, genetically normal child.
00:10:26.520 | Yeah.
00:10:27.520 | So let's kind of put this, I want to circle back a little bit because this is a good point.
00:10:33.680 | So a person goes into the IVF clinic and they speak to the doctor and the doctor says, "We're
00:10:39.540 | going to pull out 10 eggs from the female."
00:10:42.840 | And then 10 eggs are pulled and then they'll ask for the sperm from the male and then they'll
00:10:50.040 | fertilize.
00:10:51.040 | So typically, if you don't put a stop to it, typically they just fertilize all 10 eggs.
00:10:59.600 | And for those who do not know, you can't implant 10 fertilized eggs at one time.
00:11:05.680 | It's not something you can do.
00:11:08.220 | Typically it may be somewhere between one and three.
00:11:10.120 | Is that correct?
00:11:11.120 | Yeah.
00:11:12.120 | So you can go more than three, of course.
00:11:13.960 | But it's not recommended?
00:11:15.520 | It's not recommended.
00:11:16.520 | There used to be something called selective reduction, which I don't believe they practice
00:11:22.040 | now, but that practice involves implanting a large amount of children, typically more
00:11:29.560 | than three, maybe four, five, six.
00:11:31.560 | And then what they would do is they would see which later on, they would see which child
00:11:37.000 | is acting "normal," acting like a genetically normal child would throughout the pregnancy.
00:11:45.440 | And then they would selectively reduce them, meaning basically abort the ones that aren't.
00:11:51.400 | Or if a couple wanted to have twins and then decided they do no longer want to have twins,
00:11:59.040 | they wanted just one child, selective reduction would involve aborting a child.
00:12:03.120 | So that practice has since, I think, gone to the wayside.
00:12:06.760 | I don't think it's practiced as much now, but yes, like typically, yes, you would only
00:12:11.400 | implant one to two, even three is sort of not conventional.
00:12:19.200 | And there's been a huge push within the IVF industry, especially since the advent of genetic
00:12:23.000 | testing, to only implant one.
00:12:26.960 | I remember when Carrie went to see a fertility doctor because we have to get some monitoring
00:12:33.240 | here in California and send it over to NEDC in Knoxville, Tennessee.
00:12:38.720 | So we did meet an IVF doctor.
00:12:41.000 | And NEDC is the Embryo Donation Center.
00:12:42.880 | Yes, yes, that's the agency that we adopted our children from.
00:12:47.680 | So this fertility doctor, of course, does not share the same worldview, and so he assumed
00:12:52.520 | the whole time he was doing the ultrasound that we had only implanted one.
00:12:56.840 | And then he was like, "Okay, so let's look at this child and see how this child's doing."
00:13:01.520 | And when Carrie had told him that we implanted three, he jumped out of his chair and he was
00:13:07.360 | so shocked and he couldn't believe it.
00:13:10.160 | And so that just kind of shows that the culture of IVF is generally to implant one.
00:13:16.440 | Yeah, and so the next logical question is, if you let's say implant one, because that's
00:13:23.400 | a suggestion to implant one or two, but let's say one, right?
00:13:27.680 | You implant one, and then let's say that child goes to term.
00:13:32.080 | You have nine left, if there are 10.
00:13:35.600 | And let's say you implant one or two more, right?
00:13:39.440 | Let's just give the benefit of doubt and say you plant two initially, implant two.
00:13:43.440 | And let's say you have one child, and then you have eight left.
00:13:47.800 | You plant another two, let's say you have one child.
00:13:51.480 | Well, now you have six left.
00:13:54.960 | So the question then becomes, what are you going to do with the six?
00:13:58.480 | But let's say the numbers are different.
00:13:59.480 | Let's say you start with 10, and then you implant one doesn't survive, one doesn't survive.
00:14:05.320 | And you do it again, I mean, you might end up with three, right?
00:14:09.040 | But there's still three human beings.
00:14:11.400 | Exactly.
00:14:12.400 | That's the point.
00:14:14.160 | And typically, when you're left with three human beings, because it's pretty common that
00:14:24.340 | people have leftover embryos, that's a very common occurrence.
00:14:29.120 | Same thing happens to these embryos.
00:14:30.720 | Exactly, yeah.
00:14:32.320 | So there are essentially four options for embryos that the genetic parents no longer
00:14:38.480 | want to transfer.
00:14:39.600 | So you can, again, what the community calls discarding embryos, you can discard them,
00:14:47.040 | which we as Christians, I think, would affirm that that's killing the child.
00:14:51.840 | You can, again, what they call donate to science, again, that's probably more accurately described
00:14:58.560 | as just human experimentation, and almost inevitably results in the death of the child.
00:15:04.400 | You can keep them frozen, which is what a lot of families do now.
00:15:07.400 | They can freeze them for all sorts of reasons, you know, to save the children for a later
00:15:12.560 | date when they may want to transfer them.
00:15:15.560 | And so that's an option.
00:15:16.960 | And then the last option would be to place them for adoption, which is unfortunately
00:15:21.840 | not the majority of children, the majority by number is discarding or the killing of
00:15:27.840 | unborn children.
00:15:30.560 | But adoption is a possibility.
00:15:33.840 | Yeah.
00:15:34.920 | And that's exactly how you adopt your children.
00:15:37.360 | Exactly.
00:15:38.360 | Yeah.
00:15:39.360 | So some family, you know, we don't, we have no relationship with the genetic parents of
00:15:45.840 | our children.
00:15:46.840 | So we don't know what caused them to choose this route.
00:15:51.560 | But certainly we're thankful that they did.
00:15:54.360 | And, you know, there's a lot of reasons why they might choose adoption.
00:16:00.480 | But it is available.
00:16:01.480 | And I think, again, going back to worldview is not every IVF doctor will even present
00:16:08.160 | adoption as a possibility, as a viable option for the remaining children.
00:16:15.600 | Some don't even offer.
00:16:17.400 | In fact, if I recall correctly, Carrie had mentioned, I mean, this doctor that she saw
00:16:22.040 | for her checkups here, he didn't really know anything about embryo adoption.
00:16:27.680 | And I don't think that's that's not an uncommon response from IVF doctors.
00:16:32.160 | Many are not aware of embryo adoption.
00:16:34.880 | Yeah.
00:16:35.880 | And, you know, it's a consequence of your worldview.
00:16:38.040 | If, if there, if embryos are not people, then then why would you even, you know, take the
00:16:46.720 | steps to to to investigate embryonic adoption?
00:16:50.280 | Or why would you even see if there's anything for these embryos, because they're not people
00:16:55.600 | anyway.
00:16:56.600 | Exactly.
00:16:57.600 | Why not just discard them?
00:16:58.600 | Right.
00:16:59.600 | And that's, again, it's a consequence of your your starting point of what you believe about
00:17:04.840 | where life begins.
00:17:06.680 | If you believe life begins at conception, then there's going to be consequences to how
00:17:12.740 | you react to these embryos.
00:17:15.880 | Right.
00:17:16.880 | So that's a that's a great point.
00:17:18.280 | Thanks for thanks for adding that.
00:17:19.760 | You know, one thing I also wanted to ask you was, we mentioned, Jeremiah, that these IVF
00:17:27.840 | clinics do not share a biblical worldview.
00:17:30.640 | One of the consequences being that they'll push you to create more embryos to have to
00:17:38.040 | create more people than might be, I don't use the word necessary, but they'll just push
00:17:44.440 | you to make as many as possible.
00:17:47.000 | Not really thinking about the consequences of any leftover embryos slash people.
00:17:53.320 | Right.
00:17:54.320 | So what are some other consequences that naturally occur because of their worldview?
00:18:01.360 | Yes, well, the the other issue would be freezing, you know, when they when they freeze embryos,
00:18:15.280 | they typically will, they'll typically grade them before and grading is not an objective
00:18:23.240 | standard.
00:18:24.240 | They look at how the child looks under a microscope, and they sort of give a letter scoring to
00:18:29.080 | them.
00:18:30.080 | And, you know, there's debate whether that predicts anything about the chance of survival,
00:18:35.160 | the chance of implantation.
00:18:37.320 | But typically, it's it's known that if if a child is poorly graded, they typically don't
00:18:44.720 | do well with the freezing.
00:18:47.080 | And interesting.
00:18:48.280 | So again, the consequence of the worldview is that because again, the end goal of the
00:18:52.280 | doctor is to hopefully have a born child for the couple.
00:18:58.800 | That's it.
00:18:59.800 | That's it.
00:19:00.800 | They just want a couple to have a child that's born in that, you know, you genetically normal.
00:19:07.320 | So the consequence of that would be that when they look at an embryo, and they see this
00:19:12.960 | child, they grade it and it's poorly graded.
00:19:15.960 | That doesn't incentivize them to implant that child.
00:19:19.380 | So inevitably, they would always suggest, okay, let's implant higher grade children,
00:19:25.040 | because they have a higher, the theoretical higher chance of surviving and successfully
00:19:29.560 | implanting.
00:19:30.560 | The problem is that these children that are poorly graded, they don't have a good chance
00:19:35.840 | of surviving the freezing process and the thawing process.
00:19:40.520 | So every time a child is frozen, you know, if you want that child to be transferred to
00:19:45.880 | a mother again, they have to be thawed, otherwise, you know, that that's the only way, otherwise
00:19:51.000 | they left, they are essentially frozen indefinitely.
00:19:55.040 | So these children that are poorly graded, it's well known that they do not do well as
00:20:01.480 | well, at least with the thawing process, and a lot of them don't survive.
00:20:06.440 | So you can kind of see how it plays out, you know, so it would seem more reasonable if
00:20:11.840 | you believe that life begins at conception, every child is precious, that the ones that
00:20:16.480 | may not survive the freezing thawing process should really be transferred to the mother
00:20:21.000 | first, they should be given the priority.
00:20:23.400 | Because otherwise, then you subject them to the freezing and thawing and they tend not
00:20:27.520 | to survive as well.
00:20:29.020 | But that's certainly not the culture, right?
00:20:31.640 | That culture is to, again, just implant the highest grade to give the couple the best
00:20:38.880 | chance of having a born genetically normal child.
00:20:43.920 | Yeah, and you know, it touches on this idea of the commodifying of children, we can't
00:20:51.040 | get it get too deep into in this episode.
00:20:54.040 | But there's this tension where it's not ungodly to desire children, God has built that in
00:21:01.280 | us.
00:21:02.280 | How could that desire for wanting children lead to the dehumanization of the children
00:21:11.000 | itself by commodifying yet, right?
00:21:14.080 | And that's that, I know, we've talked about this subject before, which is why I bring
00:21:19.160 | it up.
00:21:20.160 | But I know, that's heavy on your heart, this idea of the commodification of children, kind
00:21:23.840 | of kind of breaks you.
00:21:25.160 | Yeah, exactly.
00:21:26.160 | I mean, you see it all over the IVF process.
00:21:30.120 | These clinics, they do not see embryos as children, they do not.
00:21:35.940 | They see embryos as a means to an end.
00:21:40.060 | And the way the whole process is played out, you can tell, they treat children as just
00:21:48.140 | medical objects or medical waste, right?
00:21:50.860 | I mean, you look at the way we even have the way terms are used and euphemisms, right?
00:21:55.940 | I mean, we talked about discarding, donating, right?
00:22:00.580 | You don't discard people, we would never use that term, right?
00:22:03.580 | And we would never say you donate people, right?
00:22:07.980 | I mean, I say, and many others as well with me say, place for adoption, right?
00:22:13.300 | You place your frozen children for adoption.
00:22:15.620 | But the more generally accepted terminology within the IVF is you donate your children
00:22:20.540 | for adoption, right?
00:22:21.540 | And again, it goes to show you how they commodify these children.
00:22:25.700 | These children are simply goods for service.
00:22:30.100 | They're not people.
00:22:31.100 | Otherwise, we wouldn't use the same terms as we're using now.
00:22:34.620 | Yeah, no, that's really good.
00:22:36.660 | I mean, if you think about how powerful languages, how powerful these terms are, you know, and
00:22:42.740 | I'm certainly guilty of framing it that way.
00:22:45.740 | And so I'm really glad that you brought it up, that we want to be deliberate with the
00:22:50.980 | way, with our wording, because that communicates something as well.
00:22:56.140 | I want to circle back real quick to something you mentioned, but we go back to the scenario
00:23:01.940 | where a couple has 10 eggs, and all 10 are fertilized.
00:23:07.020 | And let's say, you know, six or seven are used, let's just say, I know, a lot of times
00:23:12.660 | it won't even get to six or seven, but let's just say six or seven are used.
00:23:16.060 | Well, we got to do something with the three to four, right, we have to do something with
00:23:20.460 | the three to four fertilized eggs.
00:23:23.300 | And let's say you freeze them, you know, you want to maybe have children in a year or two.
00:23:28.940 | But this is the thing, is that you can freeze them.
00:23:32.580 | But it is not guaranteed that once you freeze them, and when you thaw them, that they're
00:23:38.780 | going to survive.
00:23:39.780 | It is somewhere between, you tell me 60 to 75%.
00:23:44.820 | Yeah, so the problem is there really aren't, there isn't good data to give a good number
00:23:52.700 | for that.
00:23:53.700 | It certainly is not 100%, everyone knows that.
00:23:57.020 | A lot of clinics will self-report upwards of 90% survival, but that is likely an overestimation,
00:24:05.420 | because many probably do not include the poorly grade embryos, because oftentimes they just
00:24:12.060 | get killed even before the freezing process, because, you know, they're just not even considered,
00:24:16.820 | right, so they'll just be killed.
00:24:19.340 | And so that, and no clinic will ever give a detailed analysis of how they came up with
00:24:25.780 | their numbers.
00:24:26.780 | So it's just, you go on their website, and they'll just tell you 97%.
00:24:29.980 | Because they don't need to, am I right?
00:24:32.180 | Exactly, yes.
00:24:33.180 | There's no regulatory agency.
00:24:34.180 | Exactly, there is no regulation on this at all.
00:24:36.380 | There's no accountability.
00:24:37.380 | Exactly.
00:24:38.380 | Because we don't view embryos as life.
00:24:41.420 | Exactly.
00:24:42.420 | Yeah.
00:24:43.420 | And then, you know, and so 90 plus percent is what most clinics would report.
00:24:49.100 | So, but if you look at the National Embryo Adoption Donation Center, they report about
00:24:54.900 | a 75% chance, which is likely an underestimation.
00:25:00.180 | And the reason why is because they are receiving all of the children created that's left over
00:25:06.900 | from the genetic family.
00:25:08.220 | So typically, those tend to be lower grade, generally speaking.
00:25:13.580 | So, you know, the way I thought about it was just, well, if you take, you know, if you
00:25:17.740 | assume slight overestimation of IVF self-reported data, you assume slight underestimation from
00:25:25.660 | the National Embryo Donation Center, you get about 75, 95% range.
00:25:31.100 | And it's, the reality is it's probably somewhere between there.
00:25:34.340 | Sure.
00:25:35.340 | The problem is no one knows.
00:25:36.340 | But I think we can all accept that those aren't the greatest numbers when we consider what's
00:25:41.020 | at stake.
00:25:42.020 | Right.
00:25:43.020 | So what you're saying is essentially, I mean, the embryo, the child has an 80%, 85% chance
00:25:53.420 | of living, but conversely, a 15% chance of dying.
00:25:57.780 | So I mean, I can't imagine like, would anyone allow their child to go outside and walk across
00:26:08.920 | the street at night, knowing that there's a 15% chance that they're going to die?
00:26:16.180 | Nobody would do that.
00:26:17.180 | Nobody, I mean, you know, we're not talking about I have a 15% chance of losing the candy
00:26:23.300 | bar.
00:26:24.300 | I have a 15% chance of a child not surviving that I mean, 15% chance might seem small,
00:26:33.260 | but it really depends on what's at stake.
00:26:35.660 | Exactly.
00:26:36.660 | Yeah.
00:26:37.660 | I mean, if I had a 15% chance of, you know, losing my right arm, that 15% chance looks
00:26:44.820 | awfully big, right?
00:26:47.620 | And an embryo is worth much more than my right arm because an embryo is a person.
00:26:54.820 | So that, that's the other thing is that I think, you know, when we, when we go through
00:26:58.980 | this, when someone goes through this process, the doctor is not telling them about these
00:27:04.500 | things or not warning them about these things.
00:27:07.420 | They're just like you stated earlier, they, their goal is to just get a genetically normal
00:27:12.860 | child to pop out.
00:27:14.980 | Exactly.
00:27:15.980 | Yeah.
00:27:16.980 | And a lot of times the unfortunate reality is that these couples deal with the ramifications
00:27:22.860 | of the decisions alone, apart from the doctor, right?
00:27:26.100 | Even though the doctor is somewhat culpable in the way they, they shape, you know, the
00:27:33.300 | information.
00:27:34.300 | And so a lot of Christian families where convictions might change, they have to deal with it.
00:27:39.700 | So, you know, the best thing is to be prepared before you even enter the process about what
00:27:44.780 | are some of the things to think about, if you were so to decide on IVF, right?
00:27:50.860 | And one of them is the freezing and the thawing process that it does pose a significant risk
00:27:56.580 | to every child.
00:27:57.580 | Yeah.
00:27:58.580 | And that's certainly something to consider before, you know, you engage, engage in IVF.
00:28:03.300 | Yeah.
00:28:04.300 | You know, and there are other like issues related to IVF that are, that are more nuanced
00:28:09.460 | and specific.
00:28:10.460 | I know, Jeremiah, again, you've, you've written about this, you've blogged about this.
00:28:15.900 | And a lot of it is, you know, dealing with minutiae.
00:28:19.460 | We could get into it.
00:28:20.460 | I might, I might circle back around in a different episode, but kind of want to segue here, kind
00:28:26.540 | of make a right turn at this point.
00:28:28.600 | Now what I want to talk about, Jeremiah, is given everything we know about IVF, the question
00:28:35.620 | then becomes, is it from, from a Christian biblical standpoint, is it morally permissible
00:28:43.540 | for Christians to utilize IVF?
00:28:48.900 | That's the question.
00:28:49.900 | That's a, and that's a big, that's a big question, you know, and that is a big one.
00:28:53.460 | Yeah.
00:28:54.460 | Yeah.
00:28:55.460 | That's a, that's a big question.
00:28:56.460 | And I know already, you know, we're at the 26 minute mark, I believe, in this episode
00:28:58.900 | or maybe a little further, but I want to tackle that with Jeremiah.
00:29:04.260 | And before we kind of get into that part, I want to say that this is changing as, as,
00:29:14.900 | as the years go on, this is changing as, as, and as we learn more and more, not only about
00:29:22.380 | the science, but what the science actually does.
00:29:26.580 | And I think people will have strong opinions one way or the other.
00:29:32.340 | I think dialogue is important and I think it is important to respect one another's opinions,
00:29:40.980 | but they are going to be strong opinions because life is at stake.
00:29:44.620 | So yeah, with that said, let's, let's, let's jump into this, Jeremiah.
00:29:52.100 | Would you say as Christians, well, not, not you personally, some Christians have said
00:29:58.440 | that there is a morally permissible way, and some notable Christian theologians have said
00:30:04.420 | there is a morally permissible way, but in this morally permissible way, even in that
00:30:11.020 | permissible way, you cannot engage in the willful destruction of embryos.
00:30:17.900 | Would you agree with that?
00:30:19.700 | Yes.
00:30:20.700 | That's probably the most common evangelical stance, I would, I would say, is that IVF
00:30:27.020 | is morally permissible.
00:30:29.020 | Some would even encourage it as a treatment to overcome infertility, as sort of just viewing
00:30:35.540 | it as like another medical intervention one would do when they're sick.
00:30:40.420 | And so, but I think we would all affirm that the Bible is clear about life when life begins.
00:30:45.340 | And so if destroying embryos is murder, it's killing children, and that definitely is prohibited.
00:30:51.740 | So that I think that would probably be the most common stance we see within the evangelical
00:30:56.140 | circle.
00:30:57.140 | Yeah.
00:30:58.140 | And you know, there's a dearth of, there hasn't been a lot written on this subject, so I'm
00:31:04.980 | glad that Jeremiah and I are having this conversation because I know personally, just the scouring
00:31:12.860 | that that Jeremiah had to do to find information on this issue, I know how much he's just all
00:31:18.740 | the rocks he's looked under to, to find something that someone has written that's of value and
00:31:24.460 | so that's, you know, there's not a lot there, but, but we can say with full conviction that
00:31:31.780 | if you do decide to undergo IVF, you have to keep in mind the destruction of embryos.
00:31:41.020 | If you willfully engage in conduct that leads to the slaughter of children, I know that's
00:31:49.580 | harsh, but that's, that's also what it is, the discarding of embryos, aka also known
00:31:55.820 | as the slaughter of children, that is not something that is okay, in the biblical worldview.
00:32:05.900 | Would you agree with that?
00:32:06.900 | Absolutely, yes.
00:32:07.900 | I think it's very clear, you know, and I would agree with what you say, I would just add
00:32:12.100 | on something else as well, for specifically for those who are thinking about doing IVF,
00:32:18.060 | it's not necessary for those who have already done it, have already created children and
00:32:20.740 | maybe their convictions have changed, that's a little different, but for those who are
00:32:25.260 | going through it and have an opportunity to choose the number of children to create, I
00:32:32.020 | would just say that the idea of placing your own child for adoption also is maybe not universally
00:32:42.180 | in all circumstances, but generally not the expressed will of God.
00:32:47.500 | Generally the pattern of scripture is that if you are the genetic parents, you should
00:32:52.500 | parent your own child, and I don't think that, I think that there are certainly some that
00:33:00.700 | might disagree, and again I'm not speaking for those who have already created children
00:33:05.100 | and their convictions might have changed, you know, I'm speaking more towards those
00:33:09.660 | who can choose how many children to create, I would just advise to be thoughtful about
00:33:18.220 | the number of children you create, not in the sense that you wouldn't, even if you choose
00:33:23.540 | not to kill those children because you don't want to transfer them, but even the idea of
00:33:29.660 | placing those children for adoption, that generally speaking is sort of against the
00:33:35.620 | expressed will of God.
00:33:36.860 | Yeah, I mean, to put it in other words, don't just think, well I'm going to create, I'm
00:33:42.020 | going to just create the maximum amount and I'll just give up the rest for adoption, so
00:33:45.100 | then it's all gravy, because I can just give up the rest for adoption and my Christian
00:33:49.460 | conscience is clear.
00:33:50.460 | Well, there's about a million embryos, so even if you give them up for adoption, they
00:33:54.940 | might not ever be adopted, and they're not going to remain in cryopreservation forever,
00:34:02.380 | I mean, something's got to happen at some point, right, and again, there's no guarantee
00:34:07.500 | that there's not going to be a power outage or whatever else, so it's not like some locked
00:34:13.460 | vault somewhere, right?
00:34:15.540 | So I think, thank you for sharing that, that's good that, you know, someone doesn't just
00:34:20.100 | hear this podcast and just go, well, okay, I'll just do IVF and I'll just give up the
00:34:26.980 | rest and I followed God's standards.
00:34:31.140 | That is not what, that is not the line of thinking we should be engaging in as Christians.
00:34:40.140 | There's also a whole host of Christians that believe that Christians should never engage
00:34:46.220 | in IVF, and Jeremiah and I have talked about this worldview, this argument, and we both
00:34:53.380 | agree that for Christians who state that Christians should never use IVF, they are on solid biblical
00:35:02.420 | ground.
00:35:03.420 | So I want to just take some time to kind of unpack this, and Jeremiah, you can correct
00:35:08.940 | me if I'm wrong, but you know, we've had conversations about this.
00:35:12.900 | Christians who believe that there is a morally permissible way to do IVF, they might be on
00:35:19.380 | to something, they might not be, but they might be on to something, and Wayne Grudem
00:35:23.980 | is a proponent of that.
00:35:26.620 | But Christians who say Christians should never engage in IVF, they might be on to something
00:35:31.620 | as well.
00:35:32.620 | They might be on to something as well.
00:35:34.240 | Can you kind of elaborate on some of the arguments about Christians never utilizing IVF?
00:35:39.660 | Yeah, so that's a good point.
00:35:41.620 | To be honest, when I first researched and came across their arguments, and there are
00:35:45.340 | a lot, I honestly thought I was convinced of their position and their interpretation
00:35:52.620 | of scripture.
00:35:54.940 | I would say the way they interpret scripture is mainly in Genesis 1-2 where they get their
00:36:01.260 | stance and seeing how God has created the means of having children, how procreation
00:36:11.500 | ought to happen.
00:36:12.780 | And they would argue that procreation ought to happen within the consummate act of a monogamous
00:36:20.000 | heterosexual union.
00:36:22.200 | So anything, there cannot and should not be, there should not be procreation or the creation
00:36:29.760 | of children outside of the consummate act.
00:36:33.360 | They would view the example we have in Genesis 1-2 as sort of prescriptive.
00:36:44.780 | That children have to be created through that manner.
00:36:51.200 | That is an interesting point of view.
00:36:53.080 | I think it's one to struggle through because there is some merit to it.
00:37:02.960 | It's not obviously wrong.
00:37:05.640 | It seems like a reasonable position that some Christians could believe in.
00:37:11.600 | And of course, we ought to take the whole totality of scripture in mind, but I think
00:37:16.640 | there's something there that's worth considering.
00:37:19.120 | And that would be the most common argument for why IVF is morally unpermissible for the
00:37:26.640 | Christian.
00:37:27.640 | Yeah, you know, I did my own research and we've talked about this at length.
00:37:37.160 | And it's one of those things where it's so difficult because we're talking about life
00:37:45.640 | and just the value that life has.
00:37:49.800 | We're not talking about merely healing someone.
00:37:53.480 | That would be a lot easier.
00:37:56.040 | But when we inject the beginning of life into the equation, to see it as having a different
00:38:05.240 | calculus, I completely understand.
00:38:07.360 | And I'm saying this because as I sit here today, and I've talked to Jeremiah about this,
00:38:13.080 | as I sit here today, I am still personally convinced that there is a morally permissible
00:38:22.080 | way to use IVF.
00:38:25.640 | I'm still at that position, but I have to tell you that that position could easily change
00:38:34.720 | six months to a year as I learn more.
00:38:36.640 | Maybe it will never change.
00:38:38.280 | Maybe it will never change.
00:38:40.120 | And so even as I hold to that position, I in no way look at my brother who thinks, "You
00:38:47.080 | know what, Christians should never engage in this."
00:38:50.440 | I don't look at that position as irrational, biblically speaking.
00:38:53.920 | I think, again, I think they are on solid ground.
00:38:58.200 | And that's difficult because normally when we adopt a doctrinal position, it becomes
00:39:05.640 | difficult to see why someone would hold to a different view, not in the sense that there
00:39:14.080 | isn't any rational ground, but you typically come to a doctrinal position because you're
00:39:19.360 | convinced of it.
00:39:20.360 | At least for myself, I find myself not in that same position when I come to these other
00:39:25.800 | doctrinal positions of Scripture.
00:39:28.360 | When I think about this issue, although I am still convinced that a couple may somehow
00:39:36.560 | use the IVF procedure in a biblically permissible way, I easily see myself changing.
00:39:47.280 | I could.
00:39:48.280 | I could.
00:39:49.280 | And again, I could not.
00:39:50.280 | So I want you to kind of speak plainly too because we spoke about, and I'm going to in
00:39:56.560 | the information portion, I'm going to tag Wayne Grudem's argument for IVF, and Jeremiah
00:40:04.160 | has also shared that on his blog, and I'm going to tag the counter-argument that is
00:40:09.640 | given as well.
00:40:10.640 | But can you kind of share your thoughts on this as well?
00:40:13.800 | Yeah, so I mean, I think after discussions with you, you know, we sort of align on the
00:40:19.200 | same page where certainly I do view IVF as an opportunity for couples to have children.
00:40:32.480 | I do believe there is a morally permissible way, but there is certainly so much wrapped
00:40:40.160 | within the IVF process.
00:40:41.920 | So it's not simply, okay, yes, there is a morally permissible way.
00:40:48.440 | That seems too simplistic of an answer.
00:40:52.160 | There's so much wrapped within the process, and like you were sharing, as time goes on
00:40:58.400 | and as technology changes and as the reality based on statistics changes, that certainly
00:41:03.920 | can shift how we view the technology.
00:41:07.720 | But is there a morally permissible way?
00:41:11.960 | Of course, that would be my view, but the way it is practiced currently with the sort
00:41:19.480 | of lack of discretion over the number of children created, the just automatic default of freezing
00:41:26.920 | all these children, the genetic testing that goes on, the commodification attitude, everything
00:41:34.320 | that's wrapped in IVF is so fraught for the Christian.
00:41:42.080 | It's such a difficult place to be as a Christian to enter into that realm, to partake of that
00:41:49.160 | and to come out unscathed in any way.
00:41:52.880 | There's so many, in that process, there's much temptation to think unbiblically and
00:42:01.280 | to view children in an unbiblical way.
00:42:04.820 | So while there is a permissible way for the Christian, or at least there seems to be.
00:42:11.520 | Seems to be, yes, yes.
00:42:12.520 | Maybe there isn't.
00:42:13.520 | Yeah, exactly.
00:42:14.520 | Maybe there isn't, who knows.
00:42:15.520 | Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:17.040 | I think one should enter into it very cautiously.
00:42:20.440 | Yeah, you bring up this point, and again, I want to kind of circle back to this point
00:42:25.600 | of they do not share, these IVF clinics, again, unless you're going to NEDC or some other
00:42:33.080 | clinic like that, no IVF clinic shares our biblical worldview.
00:42:38.880 | Their worldview is, we're going to get you a genetic child, a normal genetic child.
00:42:42.960 | We'll make sure that it's not one with, you know, God forbid, Down syndrome, God forbid
00:42:48.560 | you don't want to have a child with Down syndrome.
00:42:50.800 | So that's why you mentioned genetically normal, because that is their goal.
00:42:56.000 | And to achieve that goal, they are not thinking about embryos as children, they're thinking
00:43:02.920 | about embryos as property.
00:43:05.600 | That's how they're thinking of these embryos.
00:43:07.760 | And so you go into that clinic, and they're going to just start pushing all these things
00:43:12.900 | on you.
00:43:13.900 | You know, genetic testing, do this, freeze them, do this.
00:43:16.840 | And if you say, you really have to be sober and be like, stop, stop, stop, timeout, timeout,
00:43:22.440 | we're not doing this, we're not doing this, we're not doing this.
00:43:24.800 | Problem is, a lot of people don't even know much of the science to even say, stop, stop,
00:43:31.040 | stop, I don't want to do this, I don't want to do that.
00:43:33.640 | Would you agree, Jermaine?
00:43:34.640 | Yeah, I think so.
00:43:35.840 | I think that the understanding that most people go through IVF is simplistic.
00:43:44.040 | It's viewed as just a technology, a means to an end.
00:43:47.900 | And as they engage with the technology, and since the process takes months, they begin
00:43:54.240 | to get exposed to different parts of the process.
00:43:57.880 | And that's when difficulty comes, because they realize, they face the consequences of
00:44:03.320 | entering in.
00:44:04.320 | And again, I don't want to make it sound like you cannot practice IVF, like there's no way,
00:44:10.440 | there is a way.
00:44:11.440 | Perhaps.
00:44:12.440 | Perhaps.
00:44:13.440 | But you would have to wrestle with a lot of issues prior, because like you're sharing,
00:44:22.640 | when you enter in and the doctor who you view as the one who's going to help you with the
00:44:27.480 | goal of having children paints a picture, are you able to discern that he might not
00:44:34.120 | be painting you all the options, he might not be giving you the reality of what's happening.
00:44:43.200 | There's so many ways to word things, that the idea of even discarding children can seem
00:44:50.160 | like nothing.
00:44:51.160 | It can even escape your mind.
00:44:53.320 | They can emphasize and focus on the things they know you want, such that you don't even
00:44:58.800 | think about it.
00:44:59.800 | So, I mean, I don't want to paint this really bad picture of these people, but the point
00:45:03.760 | is that they don't share the same worldview.
00:45:06.480 | And so everything they share will be from a sinful perspective, a fallen perspective.
00:45:12.920 | And it's just so important to have that discernment going in and having wrestled through all these
00:45:18.320 | issues and doing your due diligence with regards to the facts and the reality before going
00:45:23.520 | in, because they're not going to, they may not give you all the information that you
00:45:29.680 | need to make an informed decision as a Christian.
00:45:33.240 | Yeah, and I know we've talked about this before, but I want to just put this out there.
00:45:40.040 | I know you're willing, if a couple does want to undergo IVF and they want to undergo it
00:45:45.600 | in a biblically permissible way, I know you're available to speak to and you keep things
00:45:51.640 | confidential and whatever the doctor tells them, they could run it by you to pretty much
00:46:00.560 | interpret what they're saying, right?
00:46:03.320 | I mean, so I know, I don't know if you've done, I feel like you've done that.
00:46:07.000 | Have you done that before?
00:46:08.520 | I don't know if I've done that.
00:46:10.200 | Like, I don't know if I don't think, a couple has not necessarily come to me on their own,
00:46:15.920 | you know, having gone through parts of IVF and asked about certain questions, but we've
00:46:19.280 | certainly had dialogues with other couples who are thinking about it or are in the middle
00:46:23.040 | of the process or have done it and so, but yes, you know.
00:46:29.480 | I'm certainly open to discussing it, you know, and like I said, the science changes, so it's
00:46:34.020 | incredibly hard to stay up to date and like you mentioned, it's very nuanced, like we
00:46:38.280 | didn't touch on there's certain circumstances where it's better to freeze than not freeze,
00:46:43.120 | right?
00:46:44.120 | I mean, that's incredibly nuanced, you know, because it depends on the patient population
00:46:48.600 | and the studies and even how you interpret the studies because as, you know, anyone in
00:46:53.280 | the healthcare field knows that research, you know, is not always correct, you know,
00:46:58.400 | and just because it's published doesn't mean it's right, it doesn't mean it reflects reality.
00:47:02.040 | So it's incredibly difficult to come to a knowledge of what the reality is, but like
00:47:08.920 | you mentioned, discussion is important, you know, and you know, I'm always willing to
00:47:13.120 | discuss, you know, with couples or people who have come across literature that, you
00:47:17.320 | know, I may not know.
00:47:19.280 | I think we're all on this journey to uncover what is the reality of IVF and as a Christian,
00:47:25.400 | how we ought to think about it, yeah.
00:47:28.800 | You know, I want to leave the listener with a possible scenario, not an, I don't want
00:47:39.160 | to say uncommon, but very possible one, and a possible one is this, they listen to this
00:47:44.480 | podcast and they decide, okay, we're going to fertilize four eggs, because no matter
00:47:50.800 | what, I'm okay with having four children.
00:47:53.280 | So no matter what, we will fertilize four eggs.
00:47:57.280 | So let's say you implant one or two, right, and let's say one or two survive.
00:48:01.800 | So you end up having one or two kids, and then you have two embryos left.
00:48:07.120 | But suppose after you give birth, the doctor tells you, you have another kid, your wife
00:48:13.400 | might not live, for whatever reason, and there's some kind of medical complication.
00:48:18.160 | You have another kid, your wife might not live, then what do you do?
00:48:22.320 | What do you do with these other two embryos?
00:48:25.520 | You know, I mean, yeah, I mean, that's an incredibly difficult situation, and the beauty
00:48:34.160 | of the gospel is that we have the Holy Spirit, you know, that Christ has given us a helper,
00:48:40.280 | and I think it's a discussion that the couple should have with, you know, the advice of
00:48:46.640 | those they trust, you know, and I would, you know, I would certainly say that you could
00:48:55.320 | see in terms of morality, in terms of what is right and wrong, you can see certainly
00:49:02.560 | the placement of a child for adoption as, you know, a biblically sound decision.
00:49:11.960 | You can also see the woman and, you know, the mother and the father deciding, you know
00:49:16.920 | what, we're going to take the risk, right?
00:49:20.600 | That could be also, you know, a biblically sound decision, as one views it in light of
00:49:28.560 | all the scripture, you know, and trust that the Spirit will convict and guide, you know,
00:49:34.520 | I don't think there's one right answer in this situation.
00:49:38.840 | Yeah, it's tough, and the reason I bring it up is because, you know, we plan one way,
00:49:45.360 | and something like that could easily happen, and that's why when we're talking about life,
00:49:48.880 | I mean, you have to understand what we're talking about, right?
00:49:54.440 | This is life.
00:49:57.200 | This is life.
00:50:00.160 | Yeah, you mentioned there are so many other things that we could talk about.
00:50:07.120 | Let me see here, yeah, we're getting close to the end here, so I didn't want to end here.
00:50:12.440 | My plan is to perhaps circle back around to some of these topics as we learn more, but
00:50:21.240 | again, either one of us, but in particular Jeremiah is more than willing to talk to anyone
00:50:27.000 | who is thinking about this decision.
00:50:29.560 | I want to just affirm, Jeremiah and I both know that there are many people who have already
00:50:41.720 | undergone this procedure.
00:50:43.600 | We are not condemning in any way.
00:50:48.160 | We are not trying to do that.
00:50:50.080 | There have been children born through this procedure.
00:50:56.380 | They are a gift from God.
00:50:59.720 | A child that is born, regardless of how they're born, the children are a gift from God.
00:51:06.320 | They are precious, they're human beings in the fullest way.
00:51:14.120 | This has nothing to do with that, and maybe there are some of you listening, maybe perhaps
00:51:22.760 | after listening to this, are convicted.
00:51:28.800 | With any other sin, our Lord is ready to forgive.
00:51:35.040 | He has abundant mercy.
00:51:36.800 | He is waiting for His children to come to Him so that He can eagerly forgive.
00:51:42.600 | I want to make that clear that we are trying to give guidance and disseminate information.
00:51:51.680 | We are not trying to implicitly create some second-class citizen scenario where amongst
00:51:58.640 | the people who are infertile, we're going to judge you this way.
00:52:02.120 | The people who are able to have children naturally, you just got lucky and will never have to
00:52:08.840 | undergo this scrutiny.
00:52:10.680 | That is not what we're trying to do by any means.
00:52:15.880 | Ultimately, talking to couples who faced infertility, it is an incredibly intimate, deep, profound
00:52:27.500 | trial that God allows some couples to go through.
00:52:34.000 | He does it for His glory.
00:52:35.720 | We know that all things work out for that purpose.
00:52:40.240 | When I uncover IVF and all the concerns I had, there certainly was a fear that I would
00:52:51.120 | just be a discouragement to families that couldn't have children through the normal
00:52:57.600 | biological means.
00:53:00.360 | But again, my desire would be that I would walk in the truth and that as a church, we
00:53:08.240 | would all walk in the truth.
00:53:10.520 | We would learn to love everyone.
00:53:15.280 | I think the beauty of IVF, at least as it stands now, is people can have differences
00:53:21.120 | with regards to how they understand IVF.
00:53:25.800 | I certainly don't want to judge a couple simply because they've gone through IVF.
00:53:33.960 | I think the body can be built up as we wrestle and struggle through these issues, learning
00:53:39.600 | to love one another through discussing about these issues.
00:53:49.200 | I just really hope that no one would listen to this and be discouraged, but rather just
00:53:56.160 | be, in a sense, provoked in their heart to dig deeper into God's word and come to a conviction
00:54:03.360 | where they can go about whatever means of family building based upon the conviction
00:54:13.280 | of the Spirit through His word, not being influenced by worldly ideology.
00:54:19.200 | So that's really the desire.
00:54:20.920 | It certainly is not to just close off an avenue for families that are looking to do IVF, but
00:54:27.240 | just really want to inform, because we know of couples who regret their decisions of IVF.
00:54:34.360 | We know of couples who regret creating too many children.
00:54:39.560 | That's incredibly sad to witness because when you see a couple go through that and they
00:54:47.180 | realize that these are their children, but yet they're of an age or in a context where
00:54:53.800 | they can't bring them outside the womb, that's a really difficult place to be in.
00:55:00.920 | Or we know of families where they create a lot of children and for one reason or another
00:55:08.880 | those children got killed, whether intentionally or unintentionally, because some clinics don't
00:55:17.560 | really have much discretion with regards to the discard process and mistakes are made
00:55:21.200 | at times.
00:55:23.760 | That's just a difficult consequence for someone to have to deal with.
00:55:30.760 | We hope that by informing about some of these things that we can spare people of those heartaches
00:55:38.240 | and ultimately just build up the body to think critically about these issues.
00:55:43.720 | Yeah, well, that's good.
00:55:47.720 | I'm glad you got to...
00:55:50.280 | Thanks for sharing your heart because that brings the sense of why you're so passionate
00:56:02.440 | about this subject and you've seen the hurt.
00:56:07.200 | All right, that brings us to the end.
00:56:14.120 | Thanks for listening so far and we will end here.
00:56:19.360 | As you probably picked up on, there are many facets and many consequences when considering
00:56:26.120 | undergoing IVF.
00:56:28.520 | So in future episodes in this series, my hope is to break down some of the more finer points
00:56:32.920 | of IVF with Dr. Jeremiah Chang.
00:56:36.640 | Obviously, he'll be doing the breaking down.
00:56:38.880 | I'll just be asking the questions, but we want to do something a little bit more finer
00:56:42.760 | than even what we went into here.
00:56:45.440 | And as long as this episode was, it was about an hour, Jeremiah and I both agreed at the
00:56:49.680 | end of this episode that this was a flyover rather than a robust discussion that we want
00:56:58.320 | to have.
00:56:59.920 | So in future episodes, we'll take one of these points and break it down even further
00:57:07.380 | so that we can bring the listener along to the thinking and the rationale behind various
00:57:14.200 | positions.
00:57:17.160 | Thanks for making it to the end.
00:57:19.200 | I'll continue to try to make the journey worth it.
00:57:23.040 | To Him be honor, glory, and eternal dominion.
00:57:39.240 | Amen.
00:57:57.640 | (upbeat music)
00:58:00.220 | (upbeat music)