Cal Newport's Evidence To Cancel 90% Of Work Meetings

00:00:00.000 | All right, so later we have David Sachs joining us

00:00:02.540 | in the studio to answer some questions,

00:00:03.920 | but first I wanted to do a deep dive

00:00:08.120 | on an interesting study that a tech company did

00:00:12.600 | about meetings.

00:00:13.660 | So we haven't talked about meetings recently,

00:00:15.140 | so let's do a deep dive on the question,

00:00:17.200 | could this meeting have been an email?

00:00:20.780 | Is this article, I have this up on the screen

00:00:24.720 | for those who are watching on YouTube.

00:00:26.820 | The title of this article is, we intentionally canceled

00:00:30.460 | every meeting for a week, here's what happened.

00:00:33.780 | And it is a recent article, it's from the 6th of November.

00:00:38.780 | The company in question here is Zapier.

00:00:43.200 | So I think hardcore sort of world without email fans

00:00:45.780 | will know that name, Zapier is used

00:00:48.280 | for digital workflow automation.

00:00:50.660 | One of these cool nerd productivity companies.

00:00:54.640 | All right, so let me point out a few things

00:00:56.040 | from this company.

00:00:57.140 | First of all, I enjoyed the opening sentence

00:01:00.600 | of this article, it reads as follows.

00:01:04.300 | I do my best work when I'm interrupted every 30 minutes

00:01:07.300 | for a meeting, said no one ever.

00:01:10.480 | That's just writing.

00:01:11.600 | That's a funny way to open an article.

00:01:15.300 | All right, so the author of this article goes on

00:01:17.340 | to talk about the types of meetings.

00:01:20.060 | So the ontology of meetings that pulls at her attention,

00:01:24.260 | this list includes project kickoffs, syncs,

00:01:27.420 | retrospectives, recurring team meetings, and one-on-ones.

00:01:30.780 | I don't even know what most of those terms mean,

00:01:33.100 | but it gives you some sense on the proliferation

00:01:35.220 | of meetings, especially within these type

00:01:37.260 | of high-tech knowledge work firms.

00:01:40.060 | So what they decided to try at this company, Zapier,

00:01:42.860 | was something they called, Get Stuff Done Week,

00:01:46.980 | GSD for short.

00:01:50.340 | The quote here says, "The idea was that by moving

00:01:54.220 | from live calls to asynchronous communication,

00:01:56.260 | people could spend more time on deep work."

00:02:00.060 | You gotta love, I love the references,

00:02:02.100 | the commonplace references to deep work,

00:02:03.900 | because that means it's pervaded the cultural lexicon.

00:02:07.140 | And yes, get stuff done.

00:02:08.340 | All right, so this was the idea.

00:02:09.260 | They were gonna just say, let's try this one week,

00:02:12.140 | basically no meetings.

00:02:14.600 | What are the logistics?

00:02:16.520 | They just encourage everyone.

00:02:17.460 | The leadership says everyone should cancel

00:02:19.020 | their internal meetings.

00:02:20.140 | So yeah, if you have client meetings,

00:02:21.740 | you'll have to do those.

00:02:22.820 | And move the conversations async instead.

00:02:25.780 | It's engineer talk for asynchronous.

00:02:27.540 | So instead of live back and forth,

00:02:30.420 | documents, email, task systems, et cetera.

00:02:34.280 | All right, they did this for one week.

00:02:37.620 | Here is some examples of what this particular person

00:02:42.620 | did to replace these meetings.

00:02:44.620 | So let's get specific.

00:02:47.140 | So she said, instead of her weekly one-on-one,

00:02:49.620 | which by the way, I don't even know what that is.

00:02:52.100 | Again, I've never had a real job.

00:02:53.300 | So a lot of this is sometimes new to me.

00:02:55.260 | But instead of her weekly one-on-one,

00:02:57.320 | she consolidated questions for my manager

00:02:59.900 | and sent them to her in a direct message on Slack.

00:03:03.060 | Okay, so I'm assuming a one-on-one

00:03:04.260 | is where you get together with your manager

00:03:06.780 | and say, "What are we doing this week?"

00:03:07.980 | Jesse's nodding his head.

00:03:08.840 | So I have that right?

00:03:09.680 | - Yep. - Okay.

00:03:11.140 | Instead of a project check-in,

00:03:13.100 | all team members shared their updates

00:03:14.940 | in the relevant Asana tasks.

00:03:17.020 | All right, Asana is a task board.

00:03:19.420 | I talk about task boards a lot in a world without email.

00:03:22.340 | A centralized transparent place

00:03:24.140 | where all ongoing tasks can be seen, organized,

00:03:27.920 | and have relevant information attached to them.

00:03:30.220 | So Asana is just a one of these task board systems

00:03:33.460 | that's liked by computer programmer types.

00:03:35.620 | Instead of a one-off strategy call,

00:03:38.940 | stakeholders shared their thoughts in a Coda doc.

00:03:41.940 | All right, I don't know what a Coda doc is,

00:03:46.160 | but I get what they're saying here

00:03:47.420 | is instead of like, "Let's just get on the call

00:03:48.980 | and talk about this particular new thing

00:03:51.240 | we need a strategy for."

00:03:52.420 | They instead wrote down their thoughts

00:03:54.000 | in some sort of shared document situation.

00:03:55.940 | And finally, instead of a project kickoff call,

00:03:58.580 | our project manager sent a Slack message

00:04:00.200 | that shared the project charter timeline and next steps.

00:04:03.740 | That's probably the most relevant information

00:04:05.660 | from those kickoff meetings anyway.

00:04:06.980 | So let's just get that information posted.

00:04:09.300 | Why do we have to spend 30 minutes talking about it?

00:04:11.900 | All right, so what was interesting here

00:04:15.380 | is this particular employee who is not a manager said,

00:04:19.180 | "Hey, this went well.

00:04:21.020 | I normally spend between six and 10 hours in meetings."

00:04:23.860 | So that's six or 10 hours she got back.

00:04:27.060 | But look at this.

00:04:28.460 | She says, "From what I can tell,

00:04:29.520 | it was even more impactful for managers at Zapier

00:04:33.000 | who sometimes spend half their week or more in meetings."

00:04:38.000 | So for the technical employees, this is 10 hours back,

00:04:41.780 | which you can get a lot done in,

00:04:43.300 | especially when you think about the way

00:04:44.500 | that the meetings is not the total time,

00:04:46.280 | that's not the only toll.

00:04:47.900 | It's also the fragmentation of time.

00:04:50.380 | So these meetings might be short,

00:04:52.460 | 10 hours might be 20 half hour meetings,

00:04:54.940 | and those are sprinkled throughout your week,

00:04:56.860 | breaking up long stretches of time

00:04:59.540 | so they could eliminate almost any long stretches of time.

00:05:02.220 | So the damage of 10 hours worth of meetings

00:05:04.740 | is bigger than just 10 hours of work.

00:05:06.680 | But look at this, managers at Zapier could spend 50%

00:05:10.860 | or more, 20 plus hours in meetings.

00:05:15.100 | So this particular employee talked to her manager

00:05:17.900 | and got some quotes.

00:05:19.080 | So her manager, Caitlin, said things such as,

00:05:23.140 | "Zoom calls tend to rule my calendar,

00:05:27.140 | especially doing check-ins."

00:05:28.420 | The manager said, "The most surprising part

00:05:30.260 | of not having these weekly check-ins

00:05:31.700 | was that I actually didn't feel disconnected

00:05:33.980 | from my team at all."

00:05:36.020 | You're still working and communicating, just differently.

00:05:38.540 | The manager also said, "Instead of cramming tasks

00:05:41.980 | into my short stints between calls like usual,

00:05:44.900 | I was able to focus on my responsibilities

00:05:46.500 | that require deeper thinking, like long-term strategy,

00:05:48.540 | team planning, and cross-functional processes."

00:05:52.300 | Also, the manager said, "A week without meetings

00:05:54.340 | gave us space for more curiosity and experimentation,

00:05:57.880 | encouraging us to look at the problems

00:05:59.140 | we were trying to solve from a different angle.

00:06:01.900 | For us, a meeting-less week

00:06:04.060 | was far from a meaningless week."

00:06:07.480 | I feel like the manager maybe practiced that line

00:06:10.840 | before talking to her subordinate for this article.

00:06:15.240 | I think that's, just think about this though for a second.

00:06:17.120 | I mean, I think this is really important.

00:06:18.840 | These managers, if you're spending more than half

00:06:21.180 | of your hours on Zoom, this is not consolidated.

00:06:25.960 | This is not, "Man, every day I have to do meetings

00:06:28.840 | from one to five."

00:06:29.720 | No, no, no.

00:06:30.640 | These hours are sprinkled throughout the days

00:06:33.960 | so that you probably have never more

00:06:36.340 | than about 30 minutes free.

00:06:37.840 | Maybe occasionally you'll have an hour free

00:06:39.800 | without another meeting showing up somewhere

00:06:41.840 | on your schedule.

00:06:42.680 | So basically, these managers were in a state

00:06:44.520 | of constant context shifting from one meeting to another

00:06:47.520 | with these small areas in between to try to do tasks.

00:06:50.160 | But let's be honest, tasks mean slack.

00:06:52.440 | Tasks means trying to keep up

00:06:53.600 | with the deluge in the inbox.

00:06:55.320 | So you're wrenching your cognitive context

00:06:57.400 | away from this meeting,

00:06:58.360 | which probably generated lots of open loops

00:07:00.280 | that you don't have time to get to

00:07:01.280 | because you have to answer 15 urgent Slack messages

00:07:03.760 | before the next meeting puts you into a different context.

00:07:06.720 | From a psychological perspective,

00:07:08.680 | that's an almost impossible demand.

00:07:11.300 | The exhaustion that would engender is going to be pronounced.

00:07:14.160 | And from a productivity perspective,

00:07:16.160 | it's gotta be a terrible way to take these high power,

00:07:19.260 | highly trained minds and say,

00:07:20.700 | "Help us organize all of these brains

00:07:23.260 | that are organization and create new original things."

00:07:25.840 | What a terrible way to actually try to harness that energy.

00:07:28.100 | So I think this is a fantastic insight

00:07:30.020 | of the impact meetings had been having.

00:07:33.660 | All right, so Zapier didn't wanna just rely on anecdotes.

00:07:36.460 | They did an internal survey.

00:07:37.860 | Here's some statistics.

00:07:39.540 | 80% of respondents wanna do this again.

00:07:42.940 | 80% of respondents achieved their goals for the week.

00:07:46.260 | 89% respondents found communication to be as effective

00:07:50.460 | during that week as during a typical week.

00:07:53.180 | There's some goals this writer gives.

00:07:57.260 | Okay, if you wanna succeed with something like this,

00:07:59.320 | there are four goals

00:08:01.460 | or four pieces of advice we should say.

00:08:03.820 | One, set goals.

00:08:05.860 | So having specific goals

00:08:07.740 | for what you'll achieve during these weeks,

00:08:09.780 | these meeting-free weeks,

00:08:10.940 | makes it much more likely

00:08:11.900 | that you'll use those hours productively.

00:08:14.060 | By the way, that's super telling.

00:08:16.320 | I think we're so used to this

00:08:17.820 | react to incoming in between meetings,

00:08:21.080 | absurd structure of work,

00:08:22.620 | that actually being given open time

00:08:25.860 | is something we don't necessarily know what to do with.

00:08:28.620 | Like I have meetings and I'm doing emails.

00:08:30.560 | What am I supposed to do when I have two hours free?

00:08:32.140 | I think that's interesting that one of the,

00:08:33.820 | the number one goal was,

00:08:35.300 | plan what you're gonna do with that time.

00:08:37.880 | By the way, we have some advice here on this podcast for you

00:08:41.500 | right about how to plan your time.

00:08:43.060 | All right, piece of advice number two, go async.

00:08:45.580 | So they're big on using asynchronous channels.

00:08:48.680 | So that's, you know, where you write something

00:08:50.500 | that someone else can come read it later.

00:08:52.700 | Future-proof your work is the third tip.

00:08:55.060 | So she used extra hours to help put in place systems

00:08:58.900 | that in the future will make it easier

00:09:01.620 | to not have to use meetings.

00:09:03.080 | More on that in a second.

00:09:04.160 | And her fourth piece of advice

00:09:05.340 | is figure out which meetings matter.

00:09:07.140 | So actually do reflection.

00:09:09.900 | If you do one of these weeks, look back and say,

00:09:13.400 | what was really a problem that we missed?

00:09:15.660 | And what did I not miss at all?

00:09:17.120 | And so when you come out of it,

00:09:18.140 | if you're still gonna have meetings in your schedule,

00:09:20.080 | you have some insight on the,

00:09:21.200 | which of those meetings to prioritize.

00:09:23.100 | All right, so I think that's an interesting insight

00:09:26.720 | into the reality of life

00:09:27.880 | in the sort of a modern high-tech knowledge work firm.

00:09:29.800 | I think it's an interesting insight

00:09:31.080 | into what happens when you step away from meetings.

00:09:34.160 | 90% of the employees at this company said,

00:09:36.920 | nothing bad happened.

00:09:38.640 | And yet I am sure Zapier is back to what,

00:09:42.560 | how things were before.

00:09:44.400 | And this gets to the broader issue

00:09:47.720 | with the type of advice I talk about

00:09:50.800 | with the type of advice like a meeting-free GSD week.

00:09:55.480 | Why, if these ways of operating are universally beloved,

00:09:59.560 | way more effective, way less psychologically draining,

00:10:02.480 | why don't we do this more often?

00:10:04.600 | Why aren't these the standards?

00:10:05.800 | And I think the answer is because it's hard.

00:10:08.600 | Just rock and rolling with email, Slack,

00:10:11.800 | and be able to throw a Zoom invitation

00:10:13.520 | to anyone at any point is,

00:10:16.120 | in the space of possible productivity configurations,

00:10:20.000 | a low-energy state.

00:10:21.180 | It is very easy.

00:10:23.040 | It does not take much energy.

00:10:24.180 | It's very flexible.

00:10:25.720 | The overhead of implementing that is very small

00:10:27.760 | because it's just on the fly, let's go.

00:10:29.720 | Organizations will collapse towards this low-energy state

00:10:33.540 | unless there is a huge amount of external energy

00:10:35.920 | continually pumped into the organization

00:10:37.680 | to try to maintain an alternative configuration.

00:10:40.920 | The GSD week at Zapier was complicated.

00:10:44.320 | They used many more asynchronous tools,

00:10:47.260 | more structures were needed.

00:10:49.200 | They were talking about,

00:10:51.120 | in this one person's example,

00:10:53.520 | they were talking about annotating a sonnet task.

00:10:55.800 | They were talking about these CODA documents.

00:10:58.280 | They're talking about an alternative kickoff procedure

00:11:01.000 | for new projects.

00:11:02.760 | None of this is easy,

00:11:05.100 | and it would require buy-in from the top down

00:11:08.080 | as well as from the bottom up,

00:11:09.240 | and a lot of consistent energy being put into,

00:11:11.080 | this is how we do it now.

00:11:12.280 | We don't do these type of meetings.

00:11:14.360 | So it is easier to just be ad hoc.

00:11:16.400 | And I think we underestimate the power of easy.

00:11:19.220 | Easy is often bad.

00:11:22.320 | Easy is often inefficient.

00:11:23.500 | Easy often exhausts people.

00:11:25.080 | Easy is often a terrible way to make the most

00:11:27.520 | of the assets that a knowledge work company has,

00:11:29.400 | but it's also very, very difficult to dislodge.

00:11:31.760 | So to conclude this discussion,

00:11:34.520 | I wanted to throw in three random pieces of advice

00:11:36.880 | about meetings.

00:11:37.700 | We haven't talked about meetings a lot,

00:11:38.840 | so let me throw in three random pieces

00:11:40.980 | of Cal Newport meeting advice.

00:11:43.760 | I'll sort of throw this into the mix

00:11:45.400 | along with the advice given in this article we just reviewed.

00:11:50.080 | Number one, to me, the overarching message

00:11:53.980 | of what they experienced at Zapier

00:11:55.840 | is that all regular collaboration

00:11:58.180 | needs a structured process that everyone understands

00:12:01.120 | and all relevant stakeholders had a hand in crafting.

00:12:04.420 | Structured process that says,

00:12:06.840 | here's how the collaboration happens.

00:12:08.360 | Here's the information.

00:12:09.540 | Here's how the information moves.

00:12:11.020 | Here's how decisions are made.

00:12:13.220 | These can be a pain to construct,

00:12:16.100 | but once constructed, it can be way more effective

00:12:19.280 | than just saying, we'll throw in a Zoom meeting

00:12:20.780 | and email or Slack in between.

00:12:22.280 | So we saw some structured processes arise

00:12:24.380 | in this Zapier example.

00:12:26.280 | For example, the annotation of Asana tasks

00:12:31.860 | that are reviewed every day,

00:12:32.940 | as opposed to having check-in meetings.

00:12:35.800 | The construction of a kickoff document

00:12:38.300 | with the project charter and goals, et cetera,

00:12:40.420 | that is uploaded to a particular tool called Coda

00:12:44.140 | instead of having a kickoff meeting.

00:12:45.860 | So these are structured collaboration processes.

00:12:48.420 | All regular collaboration,

00:12:49.620 | you should try to put in place a process like this

00:12:51.860 | that's very clear about here's how the interaction happens.

00:12:55.620 | And to the extent possible,

00:12:56.780 | the answer to that question should move away

00:12:58.620 | from unscheduled communication

00:13:00.500 | that requires you to check an inbox.

00:13:02.340 | As much as possible,

00:13:03.180 | this should move away from having large blanks

00:13:05.580 | of unstructured meeting time.

00:13:06.660 | We'll just figure it out when we all get on Zoom.

00:13:08.580 | You want more structure than that.

00:13:10.620 | My second piece of advice,

00:13:12.460 | to make any of this type

00:13:13.620 | of structured collaboration philosophies work,

00:13:15.580 | you need a catch-all.

00:13:17.580 | This is the biggest thing I saw missing

00:13:19.180 | from the discussion in the Zapier article,

00:13:20.860 | and probably the biggest source of friction

00:13:22.500 | that would bring an end to this GSD experiment

00:13:25.740 | if they tried to just extend it week after week,

00:13:28.660 | is that there will be small things that pop up

00:13:31.360 | that require back and forth interaction

00:13:33.900 | that will probably be best dispatched if we could just talk.

00:13:37.300 | And if we're in a remote environment,

00:13:38.940 | we need to set up a meeting.

00:13:40.100 | And because it's hard to set up meetings

00:13:41.720 | that are less than 30 minutes,

00:13:42.720 | it's probably gonna eat up 30 minutes of our time.

00:13:44.500 | So you need catch-alls

00:13:46.060 | for the ad hoc discussion requiring issues

00:13:50.260 | that will inevitably arise outside of your structures.

00:13:54.020 | And I think the best catch-all is office hours.

00:13:56.580 | Every day, every person has a clearly posted time.

00:13:59.160 | My door is open, my phone is on,

00:14:01.620 | I have a Zoom room activated, and I'm in it.

00:14:04.540 | Short discussions get deferred to office hours.

00:14:08.900 | If someone tries to email you or hit you up on Slack

00:14:11.520 | with something that's gonna require

00:14:12.520 | more than just one message back and forth,

00:14:14.140 | you say, "Great, come to my office hours,

00:14:16.180 | "we'll talk about it.

00:14:17.620 | "And if that doesn't work,

00:14:18.460 | "I'll come to your next office hours to talk about it."

00:14:21.300 | If someone throws a Zoom meeting invite at you,

00:14:23.300 | you say, "Why don't we just grab me

00:14:25.000 | "at a nearby office hours,

00:14:26.500 | "let's really see what we're dealing with here.

00:14:27.880 | "And then if we need a longer meeting, we can set it."

00:14:30.400 | So you need these catch-alls.

00:14:31.860 | The effect of these is significant.

00:14:35.580 | And finally, reverse meetings,

00:14:38.140 | say a term I coined in an earlier episode,

00:14:41.540 | reverse meetings often generate better insight

00:14:44.980 | than standard meetings.

00:14:46.880 | So in a standard meeting,

00:14:49.620 | I gather all of the people that are relevant

00:14:51.900 | to something that I'm working on into one place,

00:14:55.680 | and we talk about it.

00:14:56.520 | I wanna know what you guys think about it,

00:14:57.900 | let's make a plan.

00:14:59.360 | In a reverse meeting, me as the initiator,

00:15:02.300 | instead of summoning five people to come meet with me,

00:15:05.940 | I go and talk to each of those five people one-on-one.

00:15:09.720 | And in an environment with catch-alls like office hours,

00:15:11.640 | that means I'm gonna go to each of your office hours

00:15:13.280 | one by one and talk to you about this issue.

00:15:15.720 | Much greater insight is extracted from reverse meetings

00:15:18.660 | because you get rid of the crowd social dynamics

00:15:21.040 | of having a lot of people in the same room.

00:15:22.960 | You're able to fully extract the thoughts, the feelings,

00:15:25.880 | and the expertise of each individual person.

00:15:28.360 | You have more time to synthesize this information.

00:15:30.720 | You'll probably come to a better decision

00:15:32.480 | having done a reverse meeting.

00:15:34.000 | And your overall impact on people's schedule

00:15:36.360 | is greatly minimized.

00:15:38.480 | If I go through five people's existing office hours,

00:15:41.040 | I have added nothing to their calendar

00:15:43.080 | that wasn't already there.

00:15:44.560 | If I instead make the five of them get together

00:15:46.660 | in a half hour meeting or an hour long meeting

00:15:49.040 | outside of that, that's five worker hours

00:15:52.640 | I've now sucked out of the system.

00:15:54.960 | So it's not only more efficient,

00:15:56.240 | but I also think they gain more insight.

00:15:57.500 | So those are three random pieces of advice.

00:16:00.080 | All regular collaboration has to be structured,

00:16:02.080 | have a catch-all like office hours

00:16:03.440 | for what doesn't fit in those structures,

00:16:05.280 | depend more on reverse meetings than standard meetings

00:16:07.400 | for complicated decisions where expertise is needed

00:16:09.920 | or nuanced political emotional issues are at play.

00:16:13.640 | You're gonna get much better results

00:16:14.980 | with the aggregate of one-on-ones

00:16:17.120 | instead of getting a lot of people into one room.

00:16:20.320 | Thoughts on meetings.

00:16:23.600 | - So with office hours,

00:16:25.920 | so say you're waiting around and nobody's there,

00:16:28.040 | is that just a good time to do like an admin block?

00:16:30.100 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

00:16:31.000 | - Yeah, just be like, okay, I'm gonna go through email

00:16:33.880 | or do something lightweight

00:16:35.380 | and waiting to see who actually shows up.

00:16:37.040 | - Yeah. - I'm hearing from more people

00:16:38.480 | who are doing these, by the way.

00:16:40.480 | I've heard from more entrepreneurs

00:16:42.280 | who are working on these.

00:16:43.120 | It used to be the big example was Jason Fried and Basecamp.

00:16:46.080 | Like they were big on the office hours.

00:16:47.480 | And when I did a kickoff event for World Without Email,

00:16:50.800 | it was me and Jason in conversation and we got into that.

00:16:54.720 | But I've heard from other readers since then.

00:16:57.360 | It really is effective.

00:16:58.620 | It really is effective.

00:17:00.760 | Every day, set time, it can consume so many things

00:17:06.440 | that otherwise would have been an email or a meeting.

00:17:08.840 | And it's an intermediate between this email meeting

00:17:14.520 | synchronous, asynchronous dichotomy that we often see.

00:17:17.880 | So the phrase is often,

00:17:19.240 | this meeting could have been an email.

00:17:20.400 | People really don't like,

00:17:21.960 | I have to spend 30 minutes or an hour in a meeting

00:17:24.400 | for something that could have been dealt with an email.

00:17:26.200 | But if everything goes to email,

00:17:28.220 | you get the hyperactive hive mind.

00:17:29.960 | There really is an efficiency to real time back and forth.

00:17:32.560 | You and I can figure something out in five minutes

00:17:35.200 | that would otherwise take five to 15 messages,

00:17:37.880 | each of which generates five inbox checks.

00:17:39.980 | And there we have 50 to 75 context shifts

00:17:42.960 | created by this conversation.

00:17:44.200 | Or we could talk for five minutes.

00:17:46.360 | Office hours mediates between those two.

00:17:49.000 | So you get all the advantage of real time interaction,

00:17:51.160 | all that efficiency without the schedule devouring overhead

00:17:56.160 | of having every conversation have to have its own meeting

00:18:00.000 | that holds time on your calendar.

00:18:02.960 | So it's like one of the number one strategies

00:18:05.760 | for an organizational environment that I think

00:18:08.560 | one of the most effective single pieces of advice

00:18:10.480 | I have for organizations is put office hours in place.

00:18:13.880 | (upbeat music)

00:18:16.460 | (upbeat music)

00:18:19.040 | (upbeat music)

Cal Newport's Evidence To Cancel 90% Of Work Meetings

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