Ep. 201: Making a Living Online, Artificial Intelligence, and Reducing Attention Residue

00:00:00.000 | (upbeat music)

00:00:01.520 | I'm Cal Newport, and this is Deep Questions, episode 201.

00:00:06.520 | I'm here in my Deep Work HQ, joined by my producer, Jesse.

00:00:15.380 | Jesse, did you notice when you came in,

00:00:18.320 | I emptied the garbage before you got here?

00:00:21.480 | - I did notice that, it's been full for months.

00:00:25.940 | I probably should have taken it out,

00:00:27.320 | but I didn't, it got too much.

00:00:28.800 | - Let me say this. - I didn't know where it was.

00:00:30.240 | - Let me say this, I don't use the word hero lightly,

00:00:33.420 | but in this case, without reservation,

00:00:36.020 | I think I can describe myself that way.

00:00:38.520 | I was quite proud of myself.

00:00:39.920 | Two updates that I think, one in particular,

00:00:43.700 | our audience is gonna care a lot about

00:00:46.220 | based on email volume.

00:00:47.960 | Yesterday, Jesse, was the big day at my house.

00:00:52.060 | The new upstairs air conditioner, installed.

00:00:56.320 | - How is it?

00:00:57.560 | - We're testing it out.

00:00:59.680 | It's gonna take a couple of days to feel it out.

00:01:01.720 | - It's not like unbelievable?

00:01:04.200 | - Well, here's the issue.

00:01:05.540 | The first day you get a new AC installed,

00:01:07.560 | that whole day, you have no air conditioner on.

00:01:10.860 | So your house gets up,

00:01:11.840 | my house got up to 85 degrees up there.

00:01:13.840 | So it takes it all evening to kind of catch up

00:01:17.640 | and get rid of, they called it the heat mass,

00:01:19.640 | that's the technical term.

00:01:20.920 | So by night, it was cold up there, it did catch up.

00:01:23.280 | But today's the first normal day.

00:01:25.480 | I set it before I left.

00:01:27.400 | So it'll be interesting to see when we get back.

00:01:29.680 | But there's a parable.

00:01:30.620 | So there's a parable for the stuff we talk about here

00:01:34.840 | in the AC installation,

00:01:37.040 | because these new ACs are,

00:01:39.160 | especially like we bought a fancy one

00:01:41.240 | for no real good reason,

00:01:43.280 | but they're complicated, right?

00:01:46.240 | They're more advanced than they used to be.

00:01:47.720 | My old AC we replaced was 20 years old.

00:01:50.800 | I believe if you opened up that AC to look inside,

00:01:53.360 | there was a pigeon and a thermometer.

00:01:57.140 | And then if the thermometer got too high,

00:01:59.840 | it would pull a string with its beak.

00:02:02.400 | And this new AC has roughly speaking

00:02:06.360 | the supercomputer HAL from 2001, trying to control it.

00:02:09.880 | So the technology has gotten really advanced.

00:02:12.440 | I don't know what all those chips do.

00:02:14.400 | There's three different computer chips in these things.

00:02:17.000 | I believe if I'm reading the manual correctly,

00:02:19.480 | in addition to automatically adjusting

00:02:22.760 | the stage of the compressor,

00:02:25.040 | this AC unit can also make novel policy prescriptions

00:02:28.260 | to fight climate change.

00:02:29.760 | It's all built into the circuitry.

00:02:31.400 | But here's the thing.

00:02:32.720 | It's wired out of the factory

00:02:35.540 | for this incredibly complex control panel.

00:02:40.440 | It's a control panel that is the size of an iPad Pro,

00:02:45.800 | like a really big screen,

00:02:47.400 | like full of all these fancy interfaces.

00:02:50.040 | It's $1,200.

00:02:51.680 | And I told my guys, I was like, I don't want that.

00:02:54.480 | I don't want a computerized cockpit to control my AC.

00:02:58.840 | I was like, I want my old thermostat.

00:03:00.080 | It tells me what the temperature is,

00:03:03.080 | what it's supposed to be, like what it's set to.

00:03:05.360 | And it has an up arrow and a down arrow.

00:03:08.520 | Like, I want that.

00:03:10.080 | And so like, okay, we'll make that work for you.

00:03:11.720 | They had to be on the phone with technical support,

00:03:15.560 | a carrier for probably an hour

00:03:17.600 | to figure out basically how to retrograde back the AC

00:03:21.800 | so that we could just control it old style analog.

00:03:25.440 | Because the wires that are wired up by default

00:03:27.840 | to go to the thermostat are like digital control wires.

00:03:30.080 | So you can strap on your virtual reality helmet

00:03:33.080 | and drag your temperature gauges through the landscape

00:03:36.660 | that carrier created of the metaverse or whatever.

00:03:38.880 | And I wanted up and down arrows,

00:03:40.120 | which just requires these low voltage wires

00:03:41.960 | that aren't digital, just turn on, turn off,

00:03:44.120 | turn on, turn off.

00:03:44.960 | So they had to rewire this thing.

00:03:47.000 | I mean, they were in there like connecting wires,

00:03:48.440 | but we did it.

00:03:49.280 | So I think that's a case study

00:03:51.520 | of digital minimalism in action.

00:03:53.840 | I rejected a $1,200 computerized cockpit

00:03:56.480 | for my air conditioner.

00:03:57.800 | And we successfully got a 20 year old

00:04:01.040 | up arrow, down arrow thermostat.

00:04:02.920 | - So when you go home today, it should be golden, right?

00:04:05.600 | - I hope so.

00:04:06.780 | Yeah, yeah, I've got it set somewhere cool.

00:04:08.960 | Tomorrow's going to be hot.

00:04:10.640 | So that'll be the real test.

00:04:11.800 | There's all sorts of variables.

00:04:12.820 | I don't want to get into it,

00:04:13.660 | but it's hard to get the Freon just right

00:04:15.920 | when you first install it,

00:04:16.840 | you actually have to run it for a day or two

00:04:18.920 | to get it fully circulated so you don't overcharge it.

00:04:21.480 | So like they might have to come back.

00:04:23.440 | I may have had a probe thermometer up there earlier today

00:04:26.120 | to make sure that the delta interval

00:04:28.740 | on the air coming out versus the air in the room

00:04:31.480 | was at the acceptable level and it was.

00:04:33.340 | So I was up there getting some numbers.

00:04:35.560 | - So does reading the manual count as a June book?

00:04:39.040 | - I didn't actually read the manual,

00:04:41.040 | but yeah, it probably should.

00:04:43.620 | - You read the whole thing or look out?

00:04:44.940 | - If I read the whole thing, yeah, I read the whole thing.

00:04:48.140 | The other thing going on at the homestead is the library.

00:04:52.220 | The long awaited library and building in my house

00:04:55.540 | to be my writing location is being installed

00:05:00.540 | starting yesterday and today.

00:05:02.700 | They're putting in all these,

00:05:03.600 | we got these custom built-in bookcases.

00:05:06.340 | We're making an over the top room.

00:05:07.680 | We'll bring you out there,

00:05:08.520 | we'll film the video once it's done.

00:05:09.700 | - Nice.

00:05:11.260 | - But it's kind of over the top.

00:05:12.240 | It's blue and walnut.

00:05:15.480 | So it's like a custom built blue,

00:05:18.100 | the whole room is like blue bookcases,

00:05:20.060 | but with walnut surfaces

00:05:22.720 | and the whole room is surrounded in it

00:05:24.680 | and it's gonna have my custom desk.

00:05:27.240 | And you know, I'm a big believer, location matters.

00:05:31.340 | Like functionality matters for an office.

00:05:34.300 | People always care about functionality.

00:05:35.440 | Like, do I have my printer?

00:05:37.000 | Do I have the right monitor?

00:05:38.920 | You know, is my phone in here? Is the wifi good?

00:05:41.480 | We never think about aesthetics, right?

00:05:43.440 | What is the aesthetics of the room?

00:05:44.660 | What is the cognitive impact of the aesthetics?

00:05:46.560 | I think it makes a big difference.

00:05:47.760 | So I'm, you know, putting my money where my mouth is

00:05:50.600 | and building this.

00:05:52.600 | - When's the desk come?

00:05:54.260 | - It's shipping in the first week of July.

00:05:56.880 | So two weeks, ships in two weeks.

00:05:59.240 | It's cool.

00:06:00.080 | We got these painting, like at the top of the shelves,

00:06:02.480 | these brass lamps, like painting lamps, you know,

00:06:05.480 | like paint the like long, like skinny brass things

00:06:08.640 | that stick out and shine down on the shelves.

00:06:11.640 | We put, I installed the gas line into our fireplace.

00:06:14.320 | So in the winter, I can have crackling flames,

00:06:16.740 | like while I'm writing, I figure if I'm gonna be,

00:06:19.240 | I'm writing a lot these days, books, New Yorker, et cetera.

00:06:22.920 | I figure if I'm gonna be writing this much,

00:06:25.160 | let's lean in and actually try to get the right environment.

00:06:28.000 | So I'm excited about that.

00:06:28.920 | - So the books in the HQ are going bye-bye?

00:06:31.200 | - They're going bye-bye.

00:06:32.040 | Yeah, we got to rethink,

00:06:33.800 | we got a lot of redecoration to do, Jesse.

00:06:35.440 | Like we gotta, I think we need to reconceive the HQ.

00:06:38.160 | We never actually--

00:06:39.000 | - Well, the fact that we took out the trash,

00:06:40.240 | I mean, it's a big step.

00:06:41.200 | - I think that's like 50% of the battle

00:06:43.160 | was emptying the trash.

00:06:46.000 | And then the other 50% is actually bringing in furniture.

00:06:49.720 | So we get the trash out, number one.

00:06:51.960 | Number two, we actually have to figure out

00:06:53.720 | what we want to do with this place.

00:06:54.760 | I think we can make it cool.

00:06:55.880 | I mean, this is our only room that I would say is

00:06:58.320 | where we want it to be, is the studio.

00:07:02.760 | But I don't know what to do in that main room.

00:07:06.720 | I want to do something cool.

00:07:07.920 | We'll think it through.

00:07:08.760 | - When the books go, we got to do something

00:07:09.960 | 'cause it's going to be bare.

00:07:10.840 | - Yeah, we can't have it empty.

00:07:11.680 | I mean, I'll keep it.

00:07:12.720 | - Put a pull-up bar in there.

00:07:13.760 | - Put a pull-up bar in there.

00:07:15.600 | Doesn't Joe Rogan's broadcasting warehouse have--

00:07:19.600 | - It has a gym.

00:07:20.440 | - It has like a full gym, right?

00:07:21.280 | - Yeah.

00:07:22.400 | When you get on a show, you should lift there.

00:07:25.080 | - Yeah, and come in all sweaty.

00:07:26.760 | - Yeah, I'm sure he has showers.

00:07:28.440 | - Yeah, I bet he does.

00:07:29.280 | He has a, I heard he has a sensory deprivation tank.

00:07:33.560 | - Probably.

00:07:34.400 | - At the thing.

00:07:35.240 | - Is that like the heat thing?

00:07:36.760 | - It's salt water so that you float on it.

00:07:39.560 | - Oh yeah, yeah.

00:07:40.400 | - The exact temperature of your body.

00:07:41.720 | So like, and it's dark.

00:07:43.800 | So it kind of freaks you out.

00:07:44.640 | - I think they got a good little routine.

00:07:45.480 | They like record, work out.

00:07:47.400 | Some of the guests probably go to the gym.

00:07:49.000 | - Yeah, all right.

00:07:50.640 | So we're building a gym.

00:07:51.840 | I'll tell Zoe.

00:07:54.160 | I'm sure the floors and stuff in here

00:07:57.320 | can easily handle gym equipment.

00:08:00.100 | All right, well, anyways, we got a good show today.

00:08:02.640 | Good questions.

00:08:03.560 | We got written questions.

00:08:04.400 | We got calls.

00:08:06.480 | Later on, I have a new segment I wanna try

00:08:10.520 | where I go through a couple of cool things

00:08:11.880 | people sent me to the interesting@calnewport.com address.

00:08:15.280 | But I thought I would start today's episode

00:08:19.560 | reacting to my own article.

00:08:21.680 | So the day before we're recording this episode,

00:08:25.520 | I published my latest for "The New Yorker."

00:08:30.040 | It was a bit of a longer piece

00:08:31.000 | than I've been writing recently.

00:08:32.200 | It was more of a 5,000 word, more of an epic piece.

00:08:35.680 | And the title is

00:08:36.840 | "The Rise of the Internet's Creative Middle Class."

00:08:41.840 | And I thought I would go through

00:08:44.160 | just the big ideas from this article.

00:08:45.600 | And then I have a couple of follow-up points

00:08:47.400 | about some follow-up points, not in the article,

00:08:50.080 | but based on reactions I've gotten to the article

00:08:53.720 | since it's come out.

00:08:55.240 | So if you're watching this, instead of listening to this,

00:08:56.920 | I also have the article loaded up here on the HQ tablet.

00:09:00.380 | So you can actually see the words I'm talking about.

00:09:02.240 | If you're just listening though, I'll read what I'm saying.

00:09:04.200 | So you'll be able to follow along.

00:09:06.600 | All right.

00:09:08.080 | So I just wanna give you the main bullet points.

00:09:10.200 | This is 5,000 words.

00:09:11.200 | There's a lot of details.

00:09:13.960 | But the article opened with me

00:09:15.880 | going to the studio of "Breaking Points."

00:09:18.640 | So "Breaking Points" is a internet news show.

00:09:24.560 | It's hosted by Sagar and Jetty and Crystal Ball.

00:09:29.600 | So they both come from journalism backgrounds.

00:09:33.280 | Sagar from the right, Crystal from the left.

00:09:35.760 | So Sagar used to be the White House correspondent

00:09:38.840 | for "The Daily Caller."

00:09:40.160 | Crystal was a host of a show on MSNBC.

00:09:45.080 | Years ago, they came together

00:09:46.320 | to do a show together called "Rising."

00:09:49.200 | It was filmed at The Hill,

00:09:51.000 | the publication The Hill here in DC.

00:09:53.680 | And the whole idea was someone from the left,

00:09:54.920 | someone from the right talking about the news.

00:09:57.440 | And then they went independent.

00:09:58.560 | So a couple of years ago, they went independent

00:09:59.960 | and said, "We can do this ourselves."

00:10:01.240 | And so I went to their studio.

00:10:02.320 | They leased some studio space downtown here in downtown DC.

00:10:05.360 | They have a cool set, $60,000 camera system

00:10:08.960 | that films at a really high resolution

00:10:11.960 | so that you can stream this onto big screen TVs.

00:10:14.160 | And it looks really nice.

00:10:15.840 | Real control room with actual, you know,

00:10:18.880 | upper middle-age engineer control room type men in there

00:10:21.920 | working TriCasters and the sound.

00:10:25.280 | And it was a real professional operation.

00:10:26.720 | They do a news show.

00:10:28.040 | It's on the internet.

00:10:29.160 | If you subscribe, you get it on YouTube.

00:10:30.840 | There's a podcast version.

00:10:32.280 | They put clips of it on YouTube for free.

00:10:34.600 | So I went to visit this and visit them.

00:10:36.560 | If the names sound familiar,

00:10:37.920 | it's they've gotten a lot of exposure through Joe Rogan.

00:10:41.360 | So he likes them because they come at news

00:10:44.440 | from the left and the right.

00:10:45.520 | And so they end up in kind of independent territory

00:10:48.280 | as opposed to just trying to work backwards

00:10:50.040 | from what's our point.

00:10:50.880 | So they're on that show a lot.

00:10:51.760 | I think that's, that helped them grow,

00:10:53.720 | but they had a history from before then.

00:10:55.440 | And I've been on, I was on "Rising"

00:10:57.520 | to talk about one of my books before they went independent.

00:10:59.240 | I've been on "Soggers" podcast.

00:11:00.480 | So I've crossed paths with them before.

00:11:02.440 | All right, so you look at that show

00:11:06.200 | and you see that it's doing well.

00:11:07.900 | It's doing well.

00:11:09.960 | It does not require nearly the overhead

00:11:12.980 | of their old traditional TV shows.

00:11:15.480 | They have only eight hourly contractors

00:11:18.080 | and yet their viewership metrics

00:11:20.120 | are already outpacing their former show.

00:11:21.920 | So they have more views.

00:11:22.880 | If you look on YouTube, if you look at podcast downloads,

00:11:25.160 | whatever metrics you want to look at,

00:11:27.600 | they're doing better than the old traditionally

00:11:30.080 | produced TV show at a fraction of the cost.

00:11:33.360 | So my point as early in this article is that's interesting.

00:11:37.840 | And maybe there's a lesson to be learned there

00:11:39.280 | about the evolution of news.

00:11:40.420 | But the reason why I was focusing on breaking points,

00:11:42.800 | the reason why I wanted to introduce them

00:11:44.360 | to the readers of this article

00:11:46.080 | is that I think they show a more important trend.

00:11:50.800 | And here's my exact words from the article,

00:11:52.960 | one in which a dismissed prophecy

00:11:55.720 | about the potential of the internet to support creative work

00:11:58.160 | might be making a triumphant return.

00:12:00.980 | So they are my piece of evidence

00:12:03.960 | that a once dismissed prophecy about the internet

00:12:06.120 | might be finally coming true.

00:12:08.960 | All right, so what is that prophecy?

00:12:10.200 | Well, we got to go all the way back to 2008.

00:12:13.280 | Remember 2008 was a very different time

00:12:16.440 | than the web is today.

00:12:18.120 | This was at the beginning of the web 2.0 revolution.

00:12:21.240 | So this was the beginning of that idea

00:12:23.140 | that you as a consumer could contribute content to the web

00:12:28.140 | as opposed to just going to websites and consuming content.

00:12:32.040 | We're used to that now, but it was a big deal back then.

00:12:36.320 | So it was in 2008 when web 2.0 was first becoming a thing

00:12:39.240 | that Kevin Kelly, the former executive editor of Wired,

00:12:44.080 | actually the founding executive editor of Wired

00:12:47.040 | and general techno optimist.

00:12:49.720 | So someone who provided a nice blurb

00:12:52.120 | for so good they can't ignore you.

00:12:53.520 | He had a nice blurb for a world without email.

00:12:55.240 | So I've crossed paths with Kevin Kelly over the years.

00:12:58.440 | He wrote a very internet important, I would say,

00:13:00.920 | essay called "A Thousand True Fans."

00:13:02.920 | This is gonna be the prophecy that this article is about.

00:13:07.720 | So the basic idea with "A Thousand True Fans"

00:13:10.400 | is Kevin Kelly was saying,

00:13:11.840 | now that the internet is here,

00:13:12.960 | now that the internet is interactive,

00:13:14.120 | now that you can produce and post content

00:13:16.220 | as easily as you can consume it,

00:13:18.920 | this is gonna be a boon for creative professionals.

00:13:23.920 | Because now as a creative professional,

00:13:27.600 | you can not only post your stuff online,

00:13:31.960 | you can interact with people online.

00:13:35.000 | You have at your fingertips,

00:13:36.700 | this whole vast audience of the entire world's population.

00:13:39.680 | And all you have to do,

00:13:40.700 | and this was his "A Thousand True Fans" concept,

00:13:42.560 | all you had to do is find a,

00:13:45.040 | and cultivate a small but loyal fan base

00:13:48.460 | of all the millions and millions of internet users.

00:13:50.400 | If you can find, and this was his math,

00:13:52.320 | a thousand loyal supporters,

00:13:55.060 | each of whom is willing to spend $100 a year

00:13:58.160 | on you and your art,

00:13:59.440 | you're now making a good middle-class living

00:14:02.940 | doing creative work.

00:14:03.940 | Now this was a really big deal essay.

00:14:06.920 | It was really influential because the idea was,

00:14:10.080 | pre-internet, if you were a creative type,

00:14:14.340 | you only had access to the people

00:14:16.160 | who were proximate to you,

00:14:17.600 | the people who live near you,

00:14:18.860 | the people who lived in your town,

00:14:20.760 | unless you were one of the vanishingly small few

00:14:23.960 | who had access to national,

00:14:25.360 | international broadcast platforms

00:14:27.080 | like television or newspapers.

00:14:28.400 | But there was such a small number of people

00:14:30.060 | who could be in the movies or be on TV

00:14:32.240 | or be in the newspaper,

00:14:33.580 | that almost everyone else who wanted to do creative work,

00:14:35.580 | you only had access to people who happened to be nearby.

00:14:38.000 | And it was probably going to be difficult

00:14:39.520 | for you to find enough real fans

00:14:41.980 | who lived within 50 miles of you to actually make a living.

00:14:46.480 | And Kelly's point is the internet changes that

00:14:48.720 | because now you can assemble these thousand true fans

00:14:50.560 | from anywhere around the world and make a living off of it.

00:14:53.680 | So now you've unlocked the economic potential

00:14:55.400 | for lots of different creative types

00:14:57.240 | to actually make a living doing creative work.

00:14:59.960 | As I argued, this essay hit right as the economic crisis

00:15:04.680 | of 2008 was picking up steam,

00:15:06.560 | so it was really aspirational.

00:15:09.120 | People's savings were going away,

00:15:10.480 | their retirement accounts were disappearing,

00:15:12.200 | their jobs were, either they were losing them

00:15:14.380 | or they're having the screws turned to them,

00:15:15.960 | working longer for less money

00:15:18.280 | 'cause everyone was faltering.

00:15:20.360 | And this idea of, hey, with this new technology,

00:15:22.280 | forget this diminishing rat race.

00:15:25.560 | You can make a living, support your family

00:15:27.120 | doing creative work, very aspirational.

00:15:28.720 | This essay became very popular.

00:15:31.740 | Here's the part that most people didn't know about.

00:15:35.040 | If you go back and look at the reception of this essay,

00:15:38.320 | yes, it became very popular,

00:15:39.440 | but almost immediately there was pushback.

00:15:42.920 | And one of the strongest sources of pushback

00:15:44.880 | came from Jaron Lanier,

00:15:47.220 | whose work I talk about a lot on the show.

00:15:51.200 | Jaron knew Kevin Kelly.

00:15:52.800 | They've known each other since the '80s.

00:15:54.800 | When Kevin first met Jaron to interview him

00:15:58.520 | about his pioneering work on virtual reality,

00:16:01.080 | they were both techno-optimists from the West Coast scene.

00:16:05.880 | Jaron Lanier in particular

00:16:07.100 | was a really big open culture advocate.

00:16:09.600 | Software should be free, bits should be free,

00:16:12.000 | the internet's gonna create this sort of utopian world.

00:16:14.960 | What had happened to Jaron, though,

00:16:16.200 | we've talked about this before on the show,

00:16:18.000 | is he took a hard turn towards skepticism.

00:16:21.280 | He eventually went back

00:16:25.680 | and renounced his techno-optimist views

00:16:29.120 | and said the internet is not going the way I hoped

00:16:31.360 | and the internet is beginning to bifurcate

00:16:34.380 | the haves and the haves not,

00:16:35.740 | and all the value generated is ossifying

00:16:40.200 | at a very small number of companies

00:16:42.520 | and a very small number of individuals

00:16:43.800 | that have a lot of stock in those companies.

00:16:45.000 | So he had had this turn towards skepticism around this point

00:16:48.000 | and he looked to Kevin Kelly's "A Thousand True Fans" essay

00:16:51.360 | and almost immediately came back and said,

00:16:52.840 | "Kevin, this makes sense on paper,

00:16:56.040 | "but if it was true,

00:16:56.940 | "we should see more people doing this successfully."

00:16:59.900 | So where are all of these artists and musicians

00:17:03.260 | that have a thousand true fans

00:17:04.920 | that they have cultivated online,

00:17:06.360 | making a middle-class living?

00:17:07.440 | The web has been around now for a while.

00:17:09.400 | Technologically, this has been possible for a while.

00:17:11.880 | Where are they?

00:17:12.960 | And this is a little known chapter in this history,

00:17:15.440 | but Kevin actually posted a follow-up essay,

00:17:18.880 | it's pretty soon after,

00:17:20.220 | and he explained Jarren's hesitancy.

00:17:26.040 | And he said, "Okay, let's prove Jarren wrong."

00:17:29.680 | Now, in fact, I have the exact wording here in the article.

00:17:32.700 | He said, "Okay, to prove Jarren wrong,"

00:17:36.120 | this is Kevin Kelly writing to his audience,

00:17:38.120 | "Simply submit a candidate in the comments.

00:17:40.580 | "A musician with no ties to old media models

00:17:42.920 | "now make it 100% of their living

00:17:45.040 | "in the open media environment."

00:17:47.920 | So Jarren complained, Kevin said,

00:17:49.580 | "No, no, I'm sure artists and creative types

00:17:53.700 | "living on this model exist and let's find them."

00:17:56.480 | He challenged his readers

00:17:57.760 | and they couldn't find anybody.

00:18:01.040 | The way Jarren summarized it later in his book,

00:18:04.040 | "You Are Not a Gadget,"

00:18:04.880 | which you should read if you have not,

00:18:06.200 | very influential book for techno criticism circles.

00:18:09.440 | They identified a handful at most of artists

00:18:14.440 | who satisfy that theory.

00:18:15.360 | And if you really go down the rabbit hole on this

00:18:17.180 | and look at the artists they found,

00:18:19.320 | it was kind of questionable whether they qualified or not.

00:18:21.640 | Like they basically couldn't find anyone.

00:18:24.440 | And by the time Jarren published "You Are Not a Gadget,"

00:18:26.440 | it's a chapter about a thousand true fans in that manifesto

00:18:29.120 | where he's like, "This just didn't work."

00:18:31.480 | A thousand true fans was hopeful,

00:18:35.520 | but it wasn't actually something

00:18:36.880 | that we saw come to fruition.

00:18:39.700 | And so for people who studied the internet,

00:18:42.500 | it was sort of this sad case study of optimism

00:18:46.160 | that soon bled away.

00:18:49.380 | So what actually happened here?

00:18:51.440 | Well, I think Jarren Lanier has a really good argument

00:18:54.480 | that it was the structure,

00:18:56.160 | the evolving structure of the web itself

00:18:58.920 | that scuttled the feasibility of the thousand true fans.

00:19:03.280 | And in particular, the hijacking of web 2.0

00:19:07.360 | by a small number of large social media platform monopolies

00:19:12.200 | like Facebook and then later Instagram and Twitter.

00:19:15.960 | And the way Jarren tells us,

00:19:17.880 | I think it's a really important critique,

00:19:19.880 | is that Google ads came along earlier in the 2000s

00:19:25.440 | and they showed that embedded ads could make money.

00:19:28.880 | So in other words, putting ads on content

00:19:31.960 | that normal individuals made.

00:19:34.120 | So here's my website, here is calnewport.com

00:19:37.440 | and I'm doing Google AdSense

00:19:38.680 | and it will automatically put ads

00:19:40.200 | onto the content I generated.

00:19:42.220 | This made a lot of money for Google.

00:19:44.040 | It became basically a money minting machine.

00:19:46.640 | And there was this aha light that went on

00:19:48.520 | in the techno circles out in Silicon Valley,

00:19:50.840 | which is web 2.0 means lots of people

00:19:53.480 | are creating a lot of content.

00:19:55.260 | All of that content can be essentially the fertilizer

00:19:59.220 | for our advertising money trees.

00:20:01.880 | So social media came along and even though

00:20:03.960 | it originally pushed itself as being about connection

00:20:08.280 | and relationships and making it easier

00:20:10.160 | to express yourself and connect to others,

00:20:12.200 | that was not the pitch being made to investors.

00:20:14.080 | The pitch being made to investors is

00:20:15.960 | all of these millions of people

00:20:16.960 | are gonna be generating content.

00:20:18.520 | If we can get that content generated on our servers,

00:20:21.440 | on our platforms, we get all the money

00:20:24.000 | from all the ads we can place on it.

00:20:25.760 | And so a small number of companies

00:20:28.480 | basically hijacked the web 2.0 revolution.

00:20:31.220 | It said, yeah, yeah, yeah,

00:20:33.040 | you should express yourself on the web,

00:20:34.080 | but you do it in our walled garden.

00:20:36.440 | We can control it.

00:20:37.440 | And that became as Jaren explains it,

00:20:40.680 | the downfall of the thousand true fans model,

00:20:42.560 | because once these companies were making

00:20:44.440 | hundreds of billions of dollars evaluation

00:20:46.680 | appear out of nowhere, just off of the back

00:20:48.880 | of this digital sharecropping that was occurring

00:20:54.240 | out there in this hijacked world of web 2.0,

00:20:57.480 | they began pushing their technology platforms

00:20:59.960 | to optimize the money this made.

00:21:02.040 | And this eventually led to these streaming style models.

00:21:06.200 | Twitter led the way,

00:21:07.160 | but then Facebook and Instagram followed.

00:21:09.360 | These models where you were no longer even going

00:21:12.760 | to social media homepages of individuals.

00:21:15.160 | You were no longer posting on the wall

00:21:17.040 | of your friend on Facebook.

00:21:18.640 | Algorithms would just pull interesting information

00:21:21.840 | off of the platform and put it

00:21:23.040 | into an infinite scroll stream.

00:21:25.120 | And you as a consumer would just keep scrolling

00:21:27.060 | through this, everything you were seeing

00:21:29.720 | was designed to hit your fancy,

00:21:32.160 | to give you distraction in the moment,

00:21:35.000 | to give you those little chemical bursts.

00:21:37.040 | In that setting, the thousand true fans

00:21:40.920 | was not going to survive.

00:21:43.920 | And here's the words I wrote,

00:21:45.420 | this relentless pace rewards passive consumption,

00:21:49.400 | not active interaction with individual creators.

00:21:53.080 | So here's why.

00:21:55.640 | As a creator, you can submit your creations

00:21:57.660 | into the stream, but once there,

00:21:59.880 | they will be chopped up and commoditized.

00:22:01.440 | If you're lucky, perhaps something you post

00:22:03.520 | will temporarily spark a surge of engagement,

00:22:05.580 | but the same spectators exhausted by the onslaught

00:22:07.940 | will soon shift their weary attentions

00:22:09.360 | to the next recommended item following close behind.

00:22:12.320 | So this is what happened when web 2.0 got hijacked.

00:22:16.720 | All of this user created content got chopped up

00:22:18.760 | and commoditized and put into an algorithmically

00:22:20.640 | optimized stream where it was dehumanized,

00:22:22.760 | barely connected to the individuals who created it.

00:22:26.240 | And we sit there and watch this just stream past.

00:22:29.720 | That was not an environment well-suited

00:22:34.420 | for many different individual idiosyncratic creators

00:22:37.900 | to foster and create communities,

00:22:40.800 | small but loyal communities based around their work

00:22:43.120 | that they could then monetize and make a living off of it.

00:22:46.100 | So that was why, at least in Jaren Linares telling,

00:22:49.880 | that is why the dream of a thousand true fans fell apart.

00:22:55.640 | But then we go back to breaking points.

00:22:58.760 | And what I wrote here is perhaps we were too quick

00:23:03.040 | to dismiss Kelly's a thousand true fans theory.

00:23:05.240 | It faltered in 2008, but 14 years later,

00:23:08.800 | it might be making a comeback.

00:23:12.000 | Because you look at something like breaking points

00:23:15.680 | and what you see is actually something very much

00:23:17.940 | like Kelly's original model in action.

00:23:21.860 | Sager and Crystal are not 20 million follower

00:23:26.780 | Instagram influencers.

00:23:28.500 | They're not one of these YouTube Mr. Beast style superstars.

00:23:33.260 | They gets 26 million views on every video they put up.

00:23:37.940 | They have roughly 10,000 subscribers.

00:23:39.740 | So yes, it's a factor of 10 larger

00:23:41.300 | than Kelly's original prediction,

00:23:43.440 | but within that same ballpark, 10,000 subscribers.

00:23:45.860 | So a small number by any of those large

00:23:49.500 | follower account type scales, 10,000 subscribers

00:23:52.980 | who pay them money because they respect what they're doing.

00:23:55.980 | They like the style of independent news

00:23:58.420 | that Crystal and Sager produce.

00:24:00.500 | Off of those 10,000 subscribers,

00:24:03.040 | they are able to produce the show.

00:24:04.780 | And they pay themselves, I talked to them about it,

00:24:08.500 | salaries that are more or less in line

00:24:11.080 | with what they were making when they were hosting the show

00:24:14.260 | at the Hill, right?

00:24:15.700 | So they're not trying to become immensely wealthy.

00:24:20.460 | They can cover their budget.

00:24:21.420 | They can cover the studio they lease.

00:24:22.980 | And those are hourly contractors

00:24:24.700 | that help work their equipment,

00:24:25.660 | the eight hourly contractors that helps pay for their time.

00:24:27.740 | And it works out.

00:24:28.660 | And when I pushed them, I was like,

00:24:29.620 | look, you guys wanna go the route of the ringer

00:24:32.240 | or of Gimlet, you wanna take on venture capital money

00:24:34.860 | and build up a huge staff and grow a large network

00:24:37.740 | that you can then sell for $200 million down the line.

00:24:40.780 | They had zero interest in that.

00:24:44.280 | Crystal was really clear.

00:24:46.140 | She wanted to get away from bureaucracy and giant offices

00:24:50.920 | and having to deal with staff.

00:24:51.880 | They just wanted to produce their show.

00:24:54.080 | They wanna do news.

00:24:54.920 | They wanna be able to do it full-time.

00:24:57.320 | It's Kevin Kelly's "1,000 True Fans" come to fruition.

00:25:02.320 | When I go in the article and give a lot of examples,

00:25:04.720 | like we can actually find a lot of examples of this now

00:25:06.600 | of people who have modest size audiences of strong fans

00:25:12.460 | who pay them money for the content or whatever they produce

00:25:17.460 | allowing them to make a good living, not to become rich,

00:25:20.760 | but can make a good living.

00:25:24.160 | Again, that's the Kevin Kelly dream.

00:25:26.540 | I gave two reasons for this.

00:25:28.460 | Number one, I think the rise of online news paywalls

00:25:31.940 | and subscription video streaming services like Netflix

00:25:35.640 | got us used to the idea of paying all a cart

00:25:38.280 | for digital content.

00:25:40.680 | When Kevin Kelly wrote his original essay,

00:25:42.920 | that was a time where people thought

00:25:44.320 | no one's ever gonna pay money for digital content online.

00:25:49.320 | Everything has to be free.

00:25:51.560 | Everything has to be ad supported.

00:25:53.120 | Now we're used to it.

00:25:54.160 | We pay newyorker.com.

00:25:56.920 | We pay Netflix.

00:25:57.760 | We pay Hulu.

00:25:58.840 | We're kind of used to paying all a cart

00:26:01.640 | for digital content.

00:26:02.720 | So once we're used to that,

00:26:04.200 | when someone like Sager and Crystal comes along,

00:26:06.520 | we're like, yeah, it's just another thing.

00:26:07.720 | I pay a little bit of money for it.

00:26:09.120 | I pay a little bit of money for to get digital content.

00:26:12.800 | The other thing to change was attitudes towards social media.

00:26:17.220 | So there was a time, and I know this

00:26:19.840 | 'cause I used to get roasted,

00:26:21.680 | where social media was where all the energy is.

00:26:24.800 | So the idea that you would leave social media

00:26:27.900 | and interact with creators directly over the internet

00:26:31.000 | without using the intermediation of social media

00:26:33.720 | would have been considered risky or weird.

00:26:36.360 | Now, for all the reasons we talked about on the show,

00:26:38.240 | there's a lot of pushback and skepticism

00:26:41.400 | and distrust about social media.

00:26:42.640 | So this idea that I'm gonna subscribe to breaking points

00:26:46.520 | using a small app like Supercast,

00:26:48.920 | and they have MailChimp is gonna email me direct link URLs,

00:26:53.520 | their unlisted videos,

00:26:54.480 | a whole ecosystem I'm using to interact with them

00:26:57.440 | that has nothing to do with social media.

00:26:58.720 | Now we're used to that.

00:27:00.440 | We're excited to do that.

00:27:02.040 | So we needed those two innovations,

00:27:03.160 | getting used to paying for digital content,

00:27:05.360 | and two, being comfortable leaving the walled gardens,

00:27:07.640 | the heavily controlled walled gardens of social media

00:27:09.520 | and interacting with creators through other internet tools.

00:27:13.280 | Those two things have come together.

00:27:15.840 | And I think we see this revolution of the return of people

00:27:19.160 | potentially being able to make a living online.

00:27:21.940 | One of the other big examples I give is podcasting.

00:27:24.480 | Right, I mean, what is a successful podcast,

00:27:28.000 | if not a perfect demonstration

00:27:31.000 | of Kevin Kelly's theory in action?

00:27:34.160 | You have this audience of dedicated fans

00:27:36.360 | who are willing to stream hours

00:27:38.120 | of your audio content each week.

00:27:42.200 | From an advertiser perspective, that is really valuable.

00:27:46.920 | And you can monetize that.

00:27:49.800 | And with a modest, but really strong audience,

00:27:53.480 | you can make a creative living with a podcast.

00:27:55.840 | I worked out the numbers for this article.

00:27:59.640 | I mean, depending on the type of content, et cetera, et cetera

00:28:02.060 | something like 30,000 downloads a week.

00:28:06.280 | So if you had 30,000 dedicated fans

00:28:09.360 | who had listened to one episode of your show per week

00:28:12.840 | and with the right number of ads, if you do the math,

00:28:15.880 | somewhere in there,

00:28:16.700 | you'd get to Kevin Kelly's $100,000 a year.

00:28:18.760 | So again, this is all within the ballpark

00:28:22.760 | of his original number, but this is the optimism here.

00:28:26.680 | We are returning to a place where it's possible

00:28:30.380 | for a larger, more diverse group of creative types

00:28:33.440 | doing a more diverse array of creative activities

00:28:36.520 | like Sager and Crystal,

00:28:39.600 | like a bunch of podcasters out there

00:28:41.320 | to actually really make a full-time living

00:28:42.980 | doing creative work by leveraging

00:28:44.200 | the potential of the internet.

00:28:45.220 | It required that we escape the social media walled gardens.

00:28:49.000 | It required that we got more comfortable

00:28:50.200 | spending money for digital content.

00:28:51.320 | But I think this is a good thing that's happening.

00:28:53.920 | All right, so that's what my article is about.

00:28:57.200 | Two quick follow-up points after that article came out.

00:29:00.280 | One, I talked to Kevin Kelly a little bit

00:29:01.940 | after it came out and he confirmed actually more recently,

00:29:05.300 | he gets more and more notes from people

00:29:09.220 | who read that original essay

00:29:10.660 | and are successfully making a living

00:29:13.740 | with a small but dedicated group of fans.

00:29:15.640 | So he can confirm directly,

00:29:17.840 | he hears from people succeeding with that more and more.

00:29:21.000 | The other point, and I'll make this briefly,

00:29:24.120 | someone sent me a note and I hear this critique a lot.

00:29:26.020 | So let me just address it real briefly.

00:29:29.460 | They say, yeah, maybe it's true

00:29:31.380 | that there's more avenues now

00:29:33.880 | to make a living creatively online, but it's really hard.

00:29:38.280 | And it often requires whatever timing and luck

00:29:41.680 | and Crystal and Sagar already had media backgrounds.

00:29:46.680 | And it's not just like anyone can just go and do this.

00:29:49.940 | And my reaction to that is yes, of course.

00:29:54.480 | Making a living doing creative work is really hard.

00:29:58.960 | It requires talent and it requires luck

00:30:01.320 | and it requires opportunity.

00:30:03.160 | Now, I think what we're seeing

00:30:05.660 | with the thousand true fans models

00:30:07.000 | that opportunity piece has vastly broadened.

00:30:11.440 | You don't have to be one of the vanishingly small few

00:30:13.600 | to get on cable news or have a newspaper column now.

00:30:16.560 | There's a lot more opportunities with the internet

00:30:18.720 | to make a living creatively,

00:30:19.660 | but you still need the talent timing, luck portion of that.

00:30:24.380 | And most people just don't have that.

00:30:26.240 | But I think that's always the case

00:30:28.400 | where we're talking about the democratizing

00:30:30.480 | any type of media.

00:30:32.100 | This is always the critique that comes back.

00:30:33.800 | Blogs come along and they say,

00:30:35.040 | hey, this is gonna really revolutionize print.

00:30:38.360 | Now anyone can publish print.

00:30:40.760 | You don't have to be in a newspaper.

00:30:42.360 | And the people said, oh, that revolution failed

00:30:45.000 | because most blogs are bad.

00:30:47.000 | Of course, most blogs are bad,

00:30:48.260 | but it did open up a lot more people

00:30:51.120 | who had a lot of talent and a lot of luck

00:30:52.700 | to actually find an audience

00:30:53.700 | that would have been able to before.

00:30:54.800 | Same thing with podcasts.

00:30:57.040 | People say most podcasts are bad and don't make money.

00:31:00.080 | That's true, but it opened up a lot more opportunity

00:31:03.280 | for a lot more people with talent and luck

00:31:04.920 | to actually go and do that before podcasts were available.

00:31:07.360 | So I think that's the key caveat I wanna make

00:31:09.220 | is that there's no technological revolution

00:31:12.160 | that's gonna mean anyone who wants to make a living

00:31:13.940 | doing creative work can.

00:31:14.840 | That's always gonna be really hard,

00:31:16.360 | but it used to be that you had an incredibly narrow group

00:31:19.080 | of people who even had a shot.

00:31:20.840 | Now a lot more people have a shot to take.

00:31:23.120 | Then of course, most people will still miss it,

00:31:24.640 | but we're gonna have vastly more successful creatives

00:31:27.360 | 'cause there's vastly more people out there with talent

00:31:30.560 | and the right timing and the right thing to say

00:31:32.280 | or the right skill for the moment.

00:31:33.520 | There's vastly more people out there

00:31:34.800 | than there used to be opportunities to support them.

00:31:38.100 | And so I think that's all a good thing.

00:31:41.000 | So there you go.

00:31:43.520 | A little injection of optimism

00:31:45.460 | into a otherwise normally grim topic area.

00:31:50.460 | There are some good things happening with the internet.

00:31:54.120 | - Did it take you a long time to write that?

00:31:56.120 | - Yeah, it took a little while, like 5,000 words.

00:32:00.480 | Those are longer pieces.

00:32:01.980 | But honestly, this one was in production longer

00:32:05.560 | than it probably took me to write it.

00:32:06.760 | I mean, so what I did was there's kind of a break

00:32:09.760 | in my writing.

00:32:11.360 | My last column was in January.

00:32:13.920 | And then I had to kind of take a break

00:32:16.560 | because of administrative stuff at Georgetown.

00:32:18.760 | When I turned my energy back to this article,

00:32:21.600 | it took me a month.

00:32:22.560 | I went back and looked at it.

00:32:24.480 | A month of solid work to get it done.

00:32:27.400 | I did that back in March.

00:32:29.080 | And then there's just production,

00:32:31.040 | just, you know, it takes a long time.

00:32:32.820 | So yeah, that took about a month of work.

00:32:34.880 | Whereas my column from last fall,

00:32:37.600 | it'd take about a week of work per column.

00:32:40.680 | - Do you talk to Kevin Kelly a lot?

00:32:43.200 | - No, just off and on.

00:32:44.480 | Yeah, we just kind of--

00:32:46.080 | - How old is he?

00:32:46.920 | He's like in his 60s, right?

00:32:48.920 | Or is he older? - Older, yeah.

00:32:51.720 | Probably now in his 70s.

00:32:53.680 | - He's on Ferris' podcast every now and then, right?

00:32:55.920 | - Yeah, he's a cool guy.

00:32:57.200 | Yeah.

00:32:58.040 | Yeah, he sent me some stuff.

00:33:00.120 | Not gonna talk about it now

00:33:01.000 | because I'm gonna write about it.

00:33:03.720 | But he sent me some new thoughts he had on some things.

00:33:06.480 | Really creative guy.

00:33:08.360 | Yeah.

00:33:09.200 | There's a classic Kevin Kelly article

00:33:12.360 | from five or six years ago on artificial intelligence

00:33:14.400 | and WIRED.

00:33:15.240 | Everyone should go back and read it.

00:33:16.060 | It's really good, really prophetic.

00:33:19.280 | All right, well, speaking of making a living

00:33:21.920 | doing creative work online,

00:33:23.600 | before we jump into our questions,

00:33:25.460 | I wanna talk about one of the sponsors

00:33:28.400 | that makes this show possible.

00:33:30.320 | It's a new sponsor of the show,

00:33:32.520 | but probably one you've heard of before,

00:33:35.400 | and that is BetterHelp.

00:33:38.800 | I mean, one of the things I have been hearing about a lot

00:33:43.360 | and reporting on a lot is the epidemic of burnout

00:33:48.480 | that we see happening out there,

00:33:50.160 | especially after the stresses of the pandemic.

00:33:53.140 | Symptoms of burnout include lack of motivation,

00:33:56.080 | irritability, fatigue, and more.

00:33:59.480 | Now, we often associate burnout with work.

00:34:03.260 | That's what I often write about,

00:34:04.560 | but it's not the only cause.

00:34:05.800 | Any of our roles in life can lead us to feel burnt out.

00:34:10.340 | BetterHelp Online Therapy wants to remind you

00:34:13.720 | to prioritize yourself.

00:34:15.440 | Talking with someone can help you figure out

00:34:17.260 | what's causing stress in your life.

00:34:20.160 | We'll say the timing has probably never been better

00:34:24.080 | for a service like BetterHelp.

00:34:27.440 | Just based off of multiple conversations

00:34:30.240 | I've had with people I know,

00:34:31.600 | there is a lot of people out here right now

00:34:34.080 | that do feel burnt out, do wanna prioritize themselves,

00:34:36.860 | but when they're looking for,

00:34:38.680 | let's say therapists to talk to,

00:34:40.320 | there's only so many that happen to be

00:34:42.800 | physically located nearby,

00:34:44.280 | and a lot of these offices are full.

00:34:46.260 | They have waiting lists.

00:34:47.280 | This is where a service like BetterHelp enters the scene.

00:34:52.200 | BetterHelp is a customized online therapy

00:34:54.840 | that offers video, phone,

00:34:56.400 | and even live chat sessions with your therapist.

00:34:59.680 | So you don't have to see anyone on camera

00:35:01.160 | if you don't want to.

00:35:02.760 | It's much more affordable than in-person therapy,

00:35:06.220 | and you can be matched with a therapist in under 48 hours.

00:35:10.760 | Our listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp

00:35:16.380 | if they go to betterhelp.com/deepquestions.

00:35:21.380 | That's betterhelp.com/deepquestions.

00:35:27.280 | We also wanna talk about stamps.com.

00:35:34.680 | This is true.

00:35:37.340 | I have to go to the post office

00:35:39.160 | right after we record this for a sort of arcane reason,

00:35:42.380 | and I'm not really looking forward to it,

00:35:44.640 | having to go walk down to find it, wait in the line.

00:35:47.300 | It is exactly avoiding having to do that on a regular basis

00:35:52.540 | is exactly why you need to consider stamps.com.

00:35:57.540 | Stamps.com saves you time, money, and stress.

00:36:01.140 | For more than 20 years,

00:36:02.100 | stamps.com has been indispensable

00:36:03.740 | for over 1 million businesses.

00:36:05.720 | It gives you access to all of the post office

00:36:07.860 | and UPS shipping services,

00:36:10.700 | and you can get access to them right from your computer.

00:36:12.700 | They also give you discounts, like up to 20% off,

00:36:16.540 | 30% off, I should say, UPS rates.

00:36:19.980 | USPS, USPS, that's US Postal Service, and 86% off UPS.

00:36:24.980 | Jesse, we have a competition now.

00:36:28.940 | What's harder, ZocDoc.com or USPS versus UPS?

00:36:33.460 | - We have some competition.

00:36:35.940 | - Probably the latter.

00:36:37.160 | I can't even say it.

00:36:38.200 | - USPS, UPS.

00:36:40.240 | - I'm a pro.

00:36:43.060 | You can streamline your shipping process

00:36:45.060 | with stamps.com's easy to use software.

00:36:48.140 | All you need is a computer and a printer.

00:36:50.240 | You can print official postage for any letter,

00:36:53.380 | any package, anywhere you want to send.

00:36:56.740 | It works seamlessly with Shopify, Amazon, Etsy, eBay,

00:36:59.700 | and more, so whether you're sending invoices,

00:37:02.060 | or you're in Etsy shops in your products,

00:37:03.780 | or a warehouse shipping out your orders,

00:37:05.060 | stamps.com is your mailing and shipping solution.

00:37:08.860 | So stop wasting time and start saving money

00:37:12.100 | when you use stamps.com to mail and ship.

00:37:14.180 | Sign up with promo code "deep" for a special offer

00:37:17.960 | that includes a four week trial,

00:37:21.220 | plus free postage and a digital scale.

00:37:23.020 | No long-term commitments or contracts.

00:37:25.060 | Just go to stamps.com, click the microphone

00:37:27.860 | at the top of the page, and enter the code "deep".

00:37:30.360 | From USPS to UPS, from ZocDoc.com

00:37:33.860 | to Sally's Seashells by the seashore,

00:37:37.500 | stamps.com is where you need to go.

00:37:40.700 | - See, that's just called professionalism, Jesse.

00:37:43.500 | - Radio voice.

00:37:44.340 | - Articulation, enunciation.

00:37:47.220 | That's what they teach us in radio school.

00:37:50.260 | You know, my dad actually went to school for radio.

00:37:53.500 | Like, was a broadcast major.

00:37:55.780 | - Yeah, you mentioned that he was on the radio, right?

00:37:57.780 | - Yeah.

00:37:58.760 | When he was still in college, he was also the news guy

00:38:02.380 | at the local news, the sports guy, I think,

00:38:04.980 | at the local TV station.

00:38:07.040 | And then when he was in the army,

00:38:08.780 | he, at the National Guard, he ran a radio station

00:38:13.340 | at the, you know, on the base or whatever.

00:38:16.020 | That was his guard duty.

00:38:17.640 | And then, yeah, he left academia to host his own radio show.

00:38:22.540 | - Does he give you tips about you?

00:38:24.300 | - He's got a great radio voice.

00:38:26.420 | Yeah, I've got a garbage radio voice compared.

00:38:29.700 | But a lot of it's training.

00:38:30.700 | You can train your radio voice.

00:38:32.540 | A lot of it is more air and enunciation,

00:38:36.540 | and you can bring out the resonance

00:38:38.180 | in the resonance chambers.

00:38:39.540 | It's a whole art to--

00:38:40.540 | - Oh, I'm sure, yeah.

00:38:41.780 | - But it's why, you know, he was born and raised in Texas.

00:38:44.580 | I was born and raised in Texas till I was eight.

00:38:47.640 | Never an accent.

00:38:48.500 | Because he was trained in radio and TV back then.

00:38:53.340 | You were trained with the Johnny Carson Midwest accent.

00:38:55.940 | So it's the American accent with no inflection of any type.

00:39:00.940 | That was the broadcasting voice.

00:39:02.880 | So we did not grow up in a house with Southern accents.

00:39:06.260 | - Nice, so there you go.

00:39:08.300 | Trivia.

00:39:09.140 | All right, let's do some questions.

00:39:10.860 | All right, our first question comes from H,

00:39:16.140 | who asks, "How do I get over fear of starting a business?

00:39:22.140 | I've always wanted to be entrepreneurial

00:39:25.780 | to maximize autonomy over my life

00:39:27.840 | and alignment of what I do in my career with my values.

00:39:30.580 | But I have a lack of confidence in my personal skills

00:39:33.380 | or any domain expertise.

00:39:34.580 | And more than that, I'm very, very scared

00:39:36.340 | of the risk of entrepreneurism.

00:39:38.480 | Do you have any advice?"

00:39:41.760 | Well, H, the right advice for you, I think,

00:39:46.660 | can be found in my book, "So Good They Can't Ignore You."

00:39:50.780 | And in that book, I introduced the idea,

00:39:52.860 | which we've talked about on the show before,

00:39:55.660 | of money acting as a neutral indicator of value.

00:40:00.660 | It's a term that I borrowed

00:40:02.940 | from the entrepreneur, Derek Sivers.

00:40:06.560 | Now, the concept here is the way you de-risk

00:40:12.700 | a change in your career, especially a change,

00:40:15.660 | let's say, from a steady paycheck job

00:40:19.540 | to an entrepreneurial vision,

00:40:21.140 | is that you look to see

00:40:24.380 | if you can make money on the new thing.

00:40:27.020 | You don't ask people, "Is this a good idea?"

00:40:30.100 | You don't ask people,

00:40:31.620 | "Do you think I should go out on my own

00:40:33.500 | and start this business?"

00:40:34.460 | You don't just look to your gut

00:40:36.620 | and say, "What's my passion?

00:40:38.020 | Or what do I feel like doing?"

00:40:39.660 | You instead, on the side, start doing, to a reduced degree,

00:40:44.660 | the thing you are considering

00:40:46.500 | and see if people will give you money.

00:40:47.940 | Because here's the thing,

00:40:49.660 | it costs me nothing to tell you something's a good idea.

00:40:52.660 | It costs me nothing to compliment you.

00:40:54.500 | It costs me nothing to get you fired up

00:40:56.940 | about going big and betting on yourself.

00:41:00.780 | That costs me nothing.

00:41:02.300 | And I'll just do that, why not?

00:41:03.700 | I'm a nice guy, I don't wanna be mean to you.

00:41:05.380 | But you want my money.

00:41:06.460 | Now that's different.

00:41:08.420 | People are different about that.

00:41:09.420 | They're not gonna give you their money

00:41:11.340 | unless they actually value what they're getting.

00:41:14.340 | And so Derek Sivers says,

00:41:16.900 | "Use money as a neutral indicator value."

00:41:18.340 | It's a way of evaluating, is this business idea good?

00:41:20.700 | Can I get clients?

00:41:21.540 | Will they pay me?

00:41:22.420 | Can I sell these things?

00:41:24.180 | Derek Sivers used this to,

00:41:25.700 | before he left his job as an A&R executive

00:41:28.900 | to become a full-time musician,

00:41:31.060 | "Can I make enough money of gigs on the side

00:41:33.620 | to replace my salary?

00:41:34.740 | Then I will quit the A&R job."

00:41:36.180 | And when he left his job as a musician

00:41:37.860 | to start a online music company, CD Baby,

00:41:42.180 | he ran it on the side

00:41:44.420 | until he was making enough money to support him.

00:41:46.020 | And then he quit touring to work on the company.

00:41:49.580 | So if you're really, really worried,

00:41:52.540 | let that worry be your motivation to use this strategy.

00:41:55.940 | Get a specific idea.

00:41:57.700 | Run it on the side.

00:41:58.980 | See if you can make money.

00:42:01.780 | And if you're making enough money to live off of,

00:42:04.660 | then you won't have the fear,

00:42:06.380 | or at least your fear will be greatly diminished.

00:42:08.820 | And if you're not making enough money to live on,

00:42:10.180 | that's a great signal.

00:42:11.020 | That means don't go quit your job.

00:42:13.020 | Don't go try to do this new thing.

00:42:14.740 | There be dragons.

00:42:16.100 | I'm surprised how often people skip this step

00:42:19.860 | because they don't want the answer.

00:42:22.980 | They love the romance of doing something different.

00:42:26.620 | They love the romance of what life would be like

00:42:28.500 | if they didn't have a boss,

00:42:30.420 | but they don't want to confront the reality

00:42:31.660 | that their idea might not be that good,

00:42:33.020 | that people might not actually pay them,

00:42:34.420 | they might not actually make a living.

00:42:35.660 | So they avoid this step

00:42:36.900 | 'cause they don't want an obstacle

00:42:39.100 | to the thing that they want to be true.

00:42:40.340 | And I think it's a very dangerous way

00:42:41.420 | to go about career shifts.

00:42:42.420 | So H, try what you want to do.

00:42:46.140 | See if you get paid for it.

00:42:47.340 | If you don't, try something else.

00:42:49.380 | If you do, your fear should be pretty diminished.

00:42:52.420 | All right, we got another question here.

00:42:56.420 | Ooh, it's a dangerous one.

00:42:57.700 | Maybe I'll have Jesse answer this one.

00:43:01.580 | Rob asks, "How can I convince my wife

00:43:04.460 | that I mean it when I say I have a deep session

00:43:09.660 | from say 10 a.m. to 12 noon and I am unavailable?

00:43:12.340 | My wife does not take me seriously

00:43:15.580 | when I say I need to focus on something.

00:43:18.220 | She thinks blocking off hours is unrealistic

00:43:20.580 | and I should handle her spontaneous inquiries

00:43:23.540 | in a timely manner because she is my wife

00:43:25.220 | and our family comes first.

00:43:26.580 | How would you deal with that?"

00:43:28.940 | But Jesse, I always get nervous

00:43:30.060 | when people ask me for relationship advice.

00:43:32.780 | I don't want to get in the middle of it.

00:43:35.020 | What would you say to Rob?

00:43:36.820 | Always listen to your wife?

00:43:38.140 | It's usually good advice, actually.

00:43:40.940 | It's a good question.

00:43:44.060 | All right, I will answer this with care, Rob.

00:43:48.220 | So my immediate answer is I agree with you

00:43:54.940 | and not your wife on the point of whether or not

00:43:59.700 | it is reasonable for you to have sessions during the day

00:44:04.540 | in which you're locked in and not, let's say,

00:44:07.260 | looking at text messages coming in on your phone

00:44:09.020 | or answering your phone.

00:44:10.220 | That's completely reasonable.

00:44:13.020 | There are many, many jobs where that's unavoidable.

00:44:16.460 | And if you're an airline pilot or an athlete

00:44:18.460 | or a professor or a classroom teacher or a podcaster,

00:44:24.020 | there's clearly times in your day

00:44:25.180 | where you can't be reached.

00:44:26.220 | Like there's no way you can take a call

00:44:28.260 | or there's no way you can do text messages.

00:44:29.700 | And all of those people are fine.

00:44:33.140 | Even the pilots and the athletes and the teachers

00:44:36.020 | and the podcasters who have families,

00:44:39.180 | we don't hear about rashes of disasters that happen

00:44:42.580 | because they couldn't be reached

00:44:43.820 | while they were in the classroom,

00:44:44.820 | while they're up in the air.

00:44:46.300 | And it's one of the real issues with these jobs.

00:44:47.860 | They're fine and it works fine.

00:44:49.780 | And so it's not some unreasonable, weird thing.

00:44:51.740 | There's plenty of jobs where it's the case

00:44:52.940 | where there's just times where you can't be reached.

00:44:55.900 | And I talked about this point in my book,

00:44:58.260 | Digital Minimalism.

00:44:59.700 | It was like a minute ago, relatively speaking,

00:45:04.300 | that it was very hard to reach people.

00:45:06.180 | It wasn't that long ago that if you weren't at your desk,

00:45:12.080 | no one could reach you.

00:45:13.420 | Before we had cell phones,

00:45:14.660 | and that again, wasn't that long ago,

00:45:15.940 | no one could reach you.

00:45:17.100 | I mean, I remember this.

00:45:19.380 | Even as like a college student doing interviews,

00:45:22.460 | I remember going out to interview at Microsoft 21

00:45:27.020 | or whatever, I don't know,

00:45:27.860 | it was a senior year in college or something like that.

00:45:29.220 | It was before cell phones, I didn't have a cell phone.

00:45:31.980 | I remember, you drive in,

00:45:33.440 | you go to the rental car counter at the Seattle airport,

00:45:38.140 | and they kind of give you a map and they draw on it.

00:45:40.540 | And I remember getting lost and at some point,

00:45:42.860 | finding a gas station and like using a payphone

00:45:46.940 | and a calling card.

00:45:48.020 | And I called my house, like,

00:45:49.220 | dad, do you have an Atlas there?

00:45:50.980 | What road, I'm on highway, whatever.

00:45:53.100 | And he looked it up, you know, like that's the way things,

00:45:56.060 | that's the way things work.

00:45:57.100 | Our parents would go out on dates,

00:45:59.100 | we'd have a babysitter and they would be unreachable

00:46:00.900 | till they got home.

00:46:01.740 | They had a restaurant, they had a movie,

00:46:02.860 | we all survived, it was all fine.

00:46:04.240 | All right, so my main answer is no,

00:46:05.300 | it's not fundamentally unreasonable

00:46:07.020 | that you are not reachable.

00:46:08.780 | There are some things you can do to help.

00:46:13.500 | So if you're time blocking,

00:46:15.600 | work with your family or your partner

00:46:17.420 | to go over your time block schedule for the day

00:46:19.020 | so there's some clarity.

00:46:20.220 | Oh, here's the part of the day where I'm gonna be locked in

00:46:24.220 | and not available.

00:46:25.040 | So like, you might wanna grab me right before that

00:46:30.040 | or know that during this time,

00:46:31.380 | you're not gonna be able to get through me

00:46:32.340 | because there's often a frustration where it's unpredictable.

00:46:34.360 | If it's, oh, I just never know.

00:46:36.780 | I never know when Rob's available.

00:46:38.380 | He just doesn't answer his phone.

00:46:39.560 | That's more frustrating than I know

00:46:40.880 | there's this two hour block and this one hour block

00:46:42.740 | where he won't be available, but he will be otherwise.

00:46:44.540 | That makes it a lot better.

00:46:46.980 | Rob, I would also suggest that you proactively check in.

00:46:49.820 | If you're about to go on a two hour locked in,

00:46:53.100 | focused, deep work block,

00:46:55.260 | maybe call your wife first.

00:46:57.260 | Be like, hey, what's going on?

00:46:58.100 | I'm about to be off the radar for a while.

00:47:01.100 | And you could deal with a lot of things

00:47:02.220 | that have built up right then.

00:47:04.700 | And then otherwise just apologize.

00:47:06.420 | I apologize all the time.

00:47:09.900 | Family members, friends, people are always trying to reach me

00:47:12.340 | and it's not even like I'm actively trying

00:47:15.300 | to turn off my devices and lock in.

00:47:18.020 | I just, my phone doesn't work.

00:47:19.540 | I mean, Jesse knows this.

00:47:21.420 | I don't know why,

00:47:25.380 | but this thing, if it's in whatever, vibrate mode,

00:47:30.380 | if a call comes in or there's a text message,

00:47:33.700 | it's like the gentlest breeze slightly shifted it.

00:47:38.300 | I mean, you would have to put this right next

00:47:41.420 | to the needle of an incredibly sensitive seismograph.

00:47:45.260 | To even know that this thing shook, it's crazy.

00:47:47.460 | And then when I put it on ring, like, okay,

00:47:49.420 | so now I really don't want to miss a call.

00:47:51.980 | It's like,

00:47:52.820 | and it kind of goes silent again.

00:47:58.060 | There's no way for me to know.

00:47:59.340 | So like, and this is true.

00:48:00.660 | The only time I ever am able to answer calls

00:48:03.900 | or respond in a timely fashion to a text message

00:48:07.380 | is if I happen to be holding using the phone.

00:48:09.660 | Like text messages, the main reason I respond

00:48:13.940 | to text messages is because it also comes up on my computer.

00:48:16.260 | So like if I'm on my computer, a message will pop up.

00:48:20.140 | I never catch them on here unless I happen to be holding it.

00:48:22.060 | I never catch calls, not because I'm trying to be all deep

00:48:24.660 | and smart and disconnected,

00:48:25.940 | but because my phone doesn't work.

00:48:27.640 | Now, in fairness, I don't really do a lot

00:48:30.980 | to try to fix that.

00:48:31.940 | I don't know why it doesn't work,

00:48:33.300 | but anyways, I just apologize a lot.

00:48:35.900 | That's what I would say to do also, Rob,

00:48:37.420 | is do your work and then apologize later

00:48:41.740 | if someone gets mad at you.

00:48:42.580 | Like I tried to reach you,

00:48:43.420 | you're like, you know, sorry, I was working on whatever,

00:48:45.340 | but I'm available now.

00:48:46.580 | Eventually people adjust.

00:48:48.620 | Eventually people adjust.

00:48:50.180 | And so those are my immediate reactions.

00:48:52.100 | There's a bigger observation here,

00:48:53.860 | and it's a bigger topic than I can handle right now,

00:48:55.700 | but I just wanna plant this seed.

00:48:57.340 | In my book, "A World Without Email,"

00:49:00.860 | I talked about the rise of the hyperactive hive mind

00:49:04.300 | in the context of work.

00:49:05.680 | So using unstructured back and forth ad hoc messages

00:49:09.620 | over email and Slack or Teams or whatever tool

00:49:13.940 | as our primary way of doing collaboration,

00:49:15.860 | coordination in the workplace

00:49:16.860 | and how this is a real issue

00:49:17.940 | because we have to constantly be check you did.

00:49:19.940 | Well, the same thing is happening

00:49:21.340 | in people's personal lives.

00:49:23.040 | The personal hyperactive hive mind is also an issue.

00:49:29.620 | And this is where you're just constantly

00:49:32.900 | stage managing multiple ongoing conversations,

00:49:36.860 | typically over text messages for the younger people,

00:49:38.780 | sometimes WhatsApp as well.

00:49:40.260 | There's just all of these different messages

00:49:43.740 | going back and forth.

00:49:44.580 | Well, what about this?

00:49:45.400 | And how do we arrange this?

00:49:46.240 | And when are you gonna come over here?

00:49:47.360 | And just like with the professional hyperactive hive mind,

00:49:50.460 | it's incredibly convenient.

00:49:52.300 | If everyone can kind of just answer messages right away,

00:49:55.220 | you can just have a lot of plates in the air.

00:49:56.900 | You can be doing a lot of arranging of things over here

00:49:59.180 | and figuring out when am I gonna meet you for lunch?

00:50:00.940 | And can we do this carpool over here?

00:50:02.540 | And what do you think about this?

00:50:03.380 | It's all very convenient in the moment,

00:50:05.460 | but it creates a tempo of life

00:50:07.420 | that is cognitively speaking almost unlivable

00:50:09.580 | because it is constant context shifting and disruption.

00:50:12.340 | It's a bifurcated experience of the world

00:50:16.480 | where it's constantly what's in front of me

00:50:17.940 | and what's on the screen,

00:50:18.780 | what's in front of me, what's on the screen,

00:50:20.860 | and you can't get away from it.

00:50:22.500 | But it's so convenient that once you're in that world,

00:50:26.060 | it's hard to get out.

00:50:27.660 | And once the people you know are in that world,

00:50:30.020 | it will make their life harder if you leave.

00:50:33.100 | So there's this issue of the personal hyperactive hive mind

00:50:35.740 | that we don't discuss as much,

00:50:37.340 | but I think is just as serious in some cases

00:50:41.380 | as the negative impacts of the professional

00:50:44.020 | knowledge work hyperactive hive mind.

00:50:45.860 | I don't know exactly how to solve it.

00:50:49.300 | I mean, I think informal office hours

00:50:51.260 | probably goes a long way towards this solution.

00:50:53.620 | So imagine there's just sort of set hours every day

00:50:58.060 | where you know you're gonna be with your phone

00:51:00.460 | and you're doing errands and tasks

00:51:03.240 | and pushing people towards those.

00:51:05.480 | Informally, you know, not making a big deal about it,

00:51:08.680 | but just like, yeah, yeah, call me.

00:51:10.800 | Yeah, anywhere between one and four,

00:51:12.640 | like call me or text or whatever, let's get into this.

00:51:15.080 | Proactively reaching out to people during that time,

00:51:17.040 | that's when you make your calls or text to people,

00:51:18.880 | like, hey, there's seven things

00:51:19.800 | I wanna check in with you on.

00:51:20.880 | I think something like that probably helps.

00:51:23.640 | So you can still catch up with people and organize things,

00:51:27.120 | but not have to have it be all the time.

00:51:30.200 | To discuss, so the term to discuss list

00:51:33.320 | are probably useful here.

00:51:35.400 | Kind of keep track of, okay, next time I talk to Rob,

00:51:37.840 | I wanna talk to him about this, but also this, also this.

00:51:41.000 | And then in your next informal office hours,

00:51:42.600 | you call him or text him.

00:51:44.320 | And if he's around,

00:51:45.160 | then you have like a bunch of things you get through

00:51:46.440 | as opposed to as soon as you have the thought,

00:51:48.960 | you immediately send off the text so it gets off your mind.

00:51:50.840 | So I think there are solutions.

00:51:52.120 | I don't wanna give a comprehensive set of solutions

00:51:55.840 | right now 'cause I haven't thought a ton about this yet,

00:51:57.820 | but I think this is a bigger topic.

00:52:00.040 | The personal hyperactive hive mind is having a real,

00:52:02.760 | I think, negative impact on people's

00:52:05.280 | day-to-day present experience.

00:52:08.640 | And it's something we need to think about

00:52:09.720 | just as much as we think about what's going on

00:52:12.020 | in the workplace.

00:52:13.740 | All right, there's a couple of questions.

00:52:16.080 | Yeah. - Do you have the iMessage

00:52:17.640 | pop up when you're doing your writing?

00:52:20.260 | - Yeah, I don't know how to turn it off.

00:52:21.960 | - Does that distract you?

00:52:23.320 | - I just ignore it.

00:52:24.320 | Now, so I'm a big Scrivener fan.

00:52:29.120 | So if I'm really in sentence crafting mode,

00:52:33.480 | I'm in composition mode where it takes up the full screen,

00:52:35.600 | and I don't think the iMessage pops up then.

00:52:38.600 | So if I'm taking notes or pulling notes,

00:52:41.540 | like I have the multi-panes going on Scrivener,

00:52:43.520 | then it can pop up, but I just ignore it.

00:52:46.060 | Like, I guess I can see it, but no, I think I ignore it.

00:52:49.600 | The problem, the place where it's a problem,

00:52:51.280 | because again, I don't know how to use any of this technology.

00:52:53.020 | The places where it's a problem is if I'm doing

00:52:54.600 | like a phone interview with a reporter,

00:52:57.080 | and if my family gets going on some sort of back and forth,

00:53:00.280 | it's just like, like it doesn't come through.

00:53:02.980 | It's not like the reporter can hear it,

00:53:04.120 | but it's very hard to concentrate

00:53:05.400 | when your phone is basically just shaking constantly

00:53:08.880 | as these conversations are going on.

00:53:11.520 | I mean, I figured out how to turn it off,

00:53:14.640 | but then I forget to turn it back on,

00:53:15.960 | and a month will go by where I miss all text messages.

00:53:18.400 | So I don't know.

00:53:19.840 | I don't know.

00:53:22.440 | I mean, phones used to ring, right?

00:53:25.840 | I used to have cell phones where it's like,

00:53:27.720 | ring, like it was loud.

00:53:29.360 | You'd hear it across the house.

00:53:31.480 | - Yeah, mine has trouble.

00:53:34.080 | Like when I put mine on ring,

00:53:35.120 | it doesn't always ring either.

00:53:36.040 | Most of the time I have mine like on, doesn't do anything.

00:53:38.280 | So then I just have missed calls and I call people back.

00:53:40.360 | - Yeah, like if you called my phone,

00:53:42.040 | do you ever, I don't know, is your phone nearby?

00:53:43.920 | - Yeah.

00:53:44.760 | - Let me call my phone.

00:53:45.600 | Look, let's do an experiment here.

00:53:47.840 | I turned off the silent mode.

00:53:52.240 | All right, Jesse's gonna call my phone.

00:53:55.760 | I'm holding it near the mic.

00:53:57.160 | Hear that?

00:54:05.000 | Like you can kind of hear it.

00:54:06.480 | Like there's a wind chime across the field.

00:54:09.000 | Like I'm holding this right up to the mic.

00:54:11.080 | It's silent, right?

00:54:15.680 | - Yeah, it's pretty big.

00:54:17.240 | - Technically it's making a sound.

00:54:18.880 | - Yeah.

00:54:20.720 | - It's technically making a sound.

00:54:23.080 | You would have to be in a dead silent room

00:54:25.840 | to even notice that.

00:54:28.120 | I would describe that as four houses down.

00:54:32.640 | The wind chime is sort of gently, right?

00:54:36.080 | All right, Jesse confirms.

00:54:37.800 | It's not my fault that I miss all calls.

00:54:39.800 | There we go.

00:54:42.040 | I'm sure there's just a setting.

00:54:42.880 | It's like a volume is turned down somewhere.

00:54:45.280 | All right, well, speaking about calls, let's do a call.

00:54:48.240 | - All right, sounds good.

00:54:49.320 | - Hey Cal, I hope you're doing well.

00:54:51.000 | My name is Daniel.

00:54:51.960 | I am 29 years old and I am a music business

00:54:54.400 | development strategist for a large tech company.

00:54:57.120 | I'm a big fan of your work.

00:54:58.320 | I've read most of your books

00:54:59.600 | and your books actually helped me double my salary

00:55:01.960 | earlier this year.

00:55:03.240 | That came with me being put into a position

00:55:05.520 | that is very much in line with where I want to go

00:55:07.520 | in my career and leverages my existing skillset

00:55:10.760 | and knowledge base quite well.

00:55:12.160 | So thank you very much for that.

00:55:14.480 | However, with life being life and loving to throw curve

00:55:17.080 | balls about a week after this promotion,

00:55:19.760 | I also got the news that my girlfriend had been diagnosed

00:55:22.240 | with a very aggressive and fast moving cancer.

00:55:25.720 | We live in a city where it's just turned to I,

00:55:28.080 | we don't have any family nearby.

00:55:30.200 | So I am in the position of being her full-time caregiver.

00:55:33.200 | I did take some time off at the beginning

00:55:34.680 | right after the diagnosis to adjust to our new lifestyle.

00:55:37.280 | But as she settled more into her chemotherapy routine,

00:55:40.360 | I have a bit more time to be able to devote to my work.

00:55:44.520 | My bosses have been very understanding with everything,

00:55:47.360 | which has been amazing.

00:55:48.400 | They've given me the space and time I need to come up

00:55:50.640 | with a schedule that works for me.

00:55:52.760 | I'm finding it very difficult to even just sit down

00:55:57.120 | and think about beginning to get into a deep work state.

00:56:01.120 | I understand that I am going through a bit

00:56:04.120 | of a stressful time right now,

00:56:05.440 | and my priorities do have to shift for me

00:56:07.400 | to properly navigate this.

00:56:09.160 | But these deep work sessions before the cancer diagnosis

00:56:12.160 | were very therapeutic for me.

00:56:13.680 | I got a lot of gratification and confidence from them.

00:56:16.240 | And it's a feeling that I feel like I could really

00:56:18.200 | use right now in this situation.

00:56:20.720 | Trying to find that balancing act

00:56:22.120 | between full-time cancer caregiving and deep work

00:56:25.240 | probably requires some form of deep work.

00:56:28.160 | So any idea or comments that you would have

00:56:31.160 | that could help me navigate this stressful period

00:56:34.320 | that I'm going through would be greatly appreciated.

00:56:37.160 | Thank you so much for everything, Cal.

00:56:38.840 | Big fan of your work.

00:56:40.080 | Can't wait to read your next book when it comes out.

00:56:43.040 | - Well, Daniel, sorry to hear about

00:56:46.480 | the news with your girlfriend.

00:56:48.080 | My immediate instinct is to pull back, work-wise.

00:56:54.200 | Pull back, and by pull back, I mean,

00:57:00.160 | let's officially, temporarily,

00:57:03.560 | but let's officially downgrade responsibilities.

00:57:07.440 | By downgrade, I mean reduce.

00:57:08.880 | Reduce responsibilities.

00:57:11.200 | So this might be stepping back from the promotion

00:57:14.360 | in the form that you got it.

00:57:16.760 | However, I would go into that

00:57:18.640 | with the mindset of less but better.

00:57:21.000 | I think the therapeutic nature of getting lost

00:57:24.600 | in some sort of craft, professional craft,

00:57:27.760 | I think that's important,

00:57:28.800 | and you don't want to abandon that.

00:57:30.560 | And so doing less but better,

00:57:33.000 | so I'm doing less total work,

00:57:35.360 | but when I am working,

00:57:37.400 | I am, the smaller number of things I'm working on,

00:57:39.760 | I'm giving it attention when it's time to work,

00:57:43.040 | and getting the therapy of that,

00:57:44.680 | the therapeutic benefit of doing that deeply,

00:57:48.720 | I think that would be important.

00:57:51.240 | Now, you're gonna have to structure this work more.

00:57:53.520 | You're gonna have to have ritual around it more.

00:57:56.080 | Your mind is understandably

00:58:00.480 | being pulled in a lot of directions.

00:58:02.320 | I think there's few things that the human brain

00:58:04.560 | is wired to take more seriously

00:58:06.240 | than a loved one in distress.

00:58:07.760 | So you're probably gonna have to lean

00:58:10.080 | pretty heavily in the ritual.

00:58:11.440 | So it's less work because there's less you can do,

00:58:13.960 | but when you do it,

00:58:15.160 | you go to a certain location

00:58:17.760 | that's just for that type of work,

00:58:19.480 | and you can set yourself up to get lost into it temporarily.

00:58:23.280 | That's what I would do.

00:58:25.040 | And then you can go back to

00:58:27.080 | leveraging the career capital and promotions.

00:58:29.640 | Look, if you could do that once,

00:58:30.720 | you'll be able to do that throughout that career.

00:58:32.200 | That means you know how, when conditions are right,

00:58:35.320 | they'll lock in and focus and create valuable work.

00:58:37.520 | And you have a whole career ahead of you

00:58:39.320 | in which you're able to do that.

00:58:40.960 | But we get back to the fundamental question of like,

00:58:42.640 | what's the point of, let's say, work and deep work?

00:58:46.040 | It's like, well, it could be valuable

00:58:48.080 | and important part of your life.

00:58:49.280 | All right, well, obviously care for a loved one

00:58:51.240 | is also valuable, important part of your life.

00:58:52.880 | So that's the thing that is valuable in your life

00:58:55.240 | that you're putting a lot of energy into now.

00:58:58.160 | At another stage, you'll be putting your energy,

00:59:00.080 | let's say, back into work.

00:59:01.120 | At another stage, you will be dropping a lot of energy

00:59:03.520 | maybe into raising kids.

00:59:04.560 | There's all sorts of different things

00:59:05.640 | that come up and down in your life,

00:59:09.080 | in the course of a deep life that are important,

00:59:10.920 | and your energy changes accordingly.

00:59:12.760 | So that's my instinct is to not just informally

00:59:17.480 | pull back from your work,

00:59:18.320 | but I think there's a relief in making it formal.

00:59:21.060 | I wanna temporarily restructure my work.

00:59:24.640 | We all agree, we pull back on the money

00:59:27.920 | and cut back on what I'm doing,

00:59:31.760 | but leave a portfolio of a small number of things

00:59:33.840 | that you do really well and you can get lost into,

00:59:35.640 | but it's not overwhelming.

00:59:37.060 | You have flexibility, you have time affluence.

00:59:39.440 | It doesn't take up all your time.

00:59:41.720 | It doesn't demand more than your diminished

00:59:43.480 | cognitive reservoir has to offer at this particular point.

00:59:46.680 | And that's where I put my focus.

00:59:49.600 | Other seasons of life will have other focuses.

00:59:53.040 | So anyways, I'm sorry for your situation.

00:59:55.580 | I think you're doing the right thing.

00:59:59.280 | I think going forward with something like I'm talking about,

01:00:01.440 | if it sounds right to you,

01:00:03.160 | I think might give you that balance

01:00:04.480 | of focusing on what matters, living deeply,

01:00:07.380 | balancing these different things

01:00:08.960 | in a way that gives you the best overall outcome.

01:00:13.200 | All right, let's see here.

01:00:18.320 | We got a written question from Sam.

01:00:23.220 | Sam asked, what is the potential of AI

01:00:27.800 | in productivity optimization and how will it work?

01:00:32.800 | Well, my theory on this, my prediction on this,

01:00:37.520 | my, maybe I say my optimistic or wistful hope

01:00:42.520 | for the role of AI in the future of work

01:00:45.920 | is going to be the AI chief of staff.

01:00:51.100 | So I've long argued, this is the natural terminal point

01:00:57.200 | for the intersection of AI with in particular knowledge work

01:01:00.280 | or office work is being able to implement a software,

01:01:04.420 | something like a chief of staff role.

01:01:07.200 | But for many more positions than we could ever afford

01:01:09.680 | to actually have chief of staff.

01:01:11.720 | So obviously we think of chief of staff,

01:01:13.720 | it's a prominent role in political life.

01:01:17.760 | The president of the United States

01:01:20.400 | famously has a chief of staff.

01:01:22.220 | West wing fans know about Leo McGarry on the West wing

01:01:24.920 | and they really manage the president's life.

01:01:28.000 | Like you never see the president

01:01:29.480 | if you watch the West wing,

01:01:30.560 | you never see Martin Sheen's character looking at calendars

01:01:33.460 | or going through email or trying to figure out

01:01:36.800 | what should I be working on?

01:01:37.640 | The chief of staff comes in,

01:01:38.460 | okay, here's what you're doing next.

01:01:40.600 | All right, now we have to go meet with this person.

01:01:42.080 | Okay, I need you to read this, read this briefing packet.

01:01:45.160 | You're gonna need it when we meet

01:01:46.080 | with the joint chief of staff later or whatever, right?

01:01:50.120 | That idea then made its way into the business world.

01:01:55.240 | A lot of it is big in Silicon Valley,

01:01:57.200 | a lot of big Silicon Valley CEO

01:01:58.880 | and entrepreneur investor types,

01:02:01.280 | hire chief of staff to help organize

01:02:03.760 | these parts of their lives so they could focus more

01:02:05.840 | on actually where they add value.

01:02:07.680 | Yeah, there's this little insider,

01:02:11.420 | Cal Newport tidbit,

01:02:13.480 | but if you look at the back of "So Good They Can't Ignore You"

01:02:15.560 | my book, "So Good They Can't Ignore You,"

01:02:16.760 | I have a blurb from Reid Hoffman,

01:02:18.680 | the co-founder of LinkedIn

01:02:21.640 | and it's big investment fund now

01:02:24.520 | is one of the PayPal mafia types from way back when.

01:02:27.600 | I have that blurb because my longtime

01:02:30.840 | and good friend Ben Kastnoka at the time

01:02:33.980 | was Reid Hoffman's chief of staff.

01:02:36.440 | And that's how Ben got started in the Silicon Valley world.

01:02:40.240 | Anyways, AI might make these accessible to individuals.

01:02:45.240 | So in this vision,

01:02:48.380 | your AI chief of staff entirely implemented in software,

01:02:52.520 | it's a software agent,

01:02:54.080 | helps you actually organize your work day

01:02:58.380 | to the extent that you no longer are in email,

01:03:00.440 | you're no longer like even really looking at calendars,

01:03:02.760 | it is communicating with other AI agents,

01:03:05.520 | figuring out what you should be working on,

01:03:06.840 | getting you the materials you need,

01:03:09.400 | helping to figure out your day

01:03:10.320 | so that like the president of the United States,

01:03:12.240 | when you come into your office, your AI agent is like,

01:03:14.080 | "Look, I know you're working on whatever,

01:03:17.760 | this initiative, this report you're writing,

01:03:20.180 | I've gathered resources for you,

01:03:21.600 | they're in this folder over here.

01:03:24.080 | By the way, there's a couple of meetings

01:03:25.320 | we put on your calendar for this afternoon

01:03:27.140 | because so-and-so need to meet you this,

01:03:29.560 | but don't worry, they're in the calendar,

01:03:30.880 | I'll get you the information when we get there

01:03:35.320 | and then in the afternoon,

01:03:37.640 | you need to check in on X, Y, and Z later,

01:03:39.920 | don't worry, when we get there,

01:03:40.800 | I'll load up the information you need

01:03:43.080 | to remind you of where we are

01:03:44.120 | and tell you where that information needs to go,

01:03:46.480 | oh, at the end of the day, we need to sign these things,

01:03:49.640 | or whatever, you know what I'm talking about?

01:03:51.240 | AI will be able to do that

01:03:52.920 | and it will leave cognitively skilled knowledge workers

01:03:56.760 | to spend most of their time

01:03:57.800 | actually applying their hard work skills

01:03:59.640 | to adding value to information,

01:04:00.760 | like doing the fundamental act,

01:04:02.160 | the fundamental act of knowledge work,

01:04:04.280 | economic value creation,

01:04:05.760 | and I think that will be transformative

01:04:08.520 | for that economic sector,

01:04:10.080 | I think that will increase the output,

01:04:13.760 | so the value created per skilled knowledge worker

01:04:16.800 | will increase by a factor of two to five,

01:04:19.240 | this is gonna be so powerful

01:04:21.560 | that it might have unexpected negative ramifications,

01:04:26.280 | if we become that much more productive,

01:04:27.940 | we might actually see reductions

01:04:30.160 | in how many people we need to run

01:04:31.680 | various industrial knowledge sectors,

01:04:34.320 | anyway, this will be, I think,

01:04:36.160 | the future of AI enhanced productivity,

01:04:38.800 | it's not just speculation,

01:04:40.120 | I've talked to CEOs of knowledge work AI companies

01:04:43.680 | that talk about this as being the goal,

01:04:46.120 | AI agents that talk to other people's AI agents

01:04:49.360 | and help organize your workday,

01:04:51.160 | so it's possible that AI is going to eliminate

01:04:55.460 | this world of hyperactive hive mind,

01:04:58.080 | overhead spiraling, constant communication collaboration

01:05:01.120 | that afflicts us today,

01:05:03.600 | the fact that we have to do that all on behalf of ourselves

01:05:06.760 | is a perhaps a temporary dark period

01:05:11.760 | in the history of this economic sector

01:05:13.800 | and maybe AI will be part of the solution,

01:05:16.320 | before we get there, I will just add,

01:05:20.040 | we can solve a lot of these problems

01:05:21.440 | even without that technology,

01:05:22.660 | just through more structured processes

01:05:24.920 | and more intelligent approaches to how we collaborate

01:05:28.720 | and this is what my book,

01:05:29.720 | "A World Without Email" is all about,

01:05:31.280 | so we don't have to wait for the AI chiefs of staff

01:05:34.840 | to free ourselves from this unproductive overhead,

01:05:37.520 | we can start making changes right now,

01:05:38.880 | but eventually whether or not we make those changes

01:05:40.880 | in our processes, AI, I think will save us.

01:05:44.660 | All right, Jesse, I have a new segment I wanna try,

01:05:49.240 | as you know, I maintain an email address,

01:05:51.320 | interesting@calnewport.com,

01:05:55.060 | which is just open for people to send me things

01:05:57.920 | they think I might find interesting,

01:05:59.520 | articles, case studies, stories from their own lives,

01:06:02.200 | photos, I can't answer all these emails,

01:06:04.520 | I'll make that clear, 'cause I get a lot of them,

01:06:05.760 | but I read most of them

01:06:06.600 | and it's really a cool source of ideas for articles,

01:06:10.640 | et cetera, well, I thought it would be cool to go back

01:06:13.400 | and occasionally pull out a cool few things

01:06:16.340 | that people sent and highlight them on the show,

01:06:19.520 | so we'll call this the interesting mailbag.

01:06:22.100 | The first thing I wanna show here

01:06:25.240 | and this is gonna be better if you're watching this

01:06:26.700 | on YouTube, because there's a cool picture

01:06:28.360 | involved with this, but I'll try to explain it,

01:06:31.280 | is someone sent me a picture of a home office

01:06:35.200 | that an anthropologist and ethnobiologist/national

01:06:41.480 | geographic explorer in residence named Wade Davis,

01:06:44.400 | who lives here in Washington, DC,

01:06:45.960 | he had a fancy architecture firm,

01:06:47.680 | build them this over the top home office,

01:06:51.520 | which I really enjoyed, so if you're watching at home,

01:06:54.480 | you'll see a picture of it now on the screen.

01:06:57.720 | What it is, is like an oval room,

01:06:59.200 | so let me describe this to you,

01:07:00.040 | it's like an oval room, there's no windows around the oval,

01:07:04.160 | it's a desk that goes all the way around the oval,

01:07:07.480 | and no windows, white walls, lit to kind of glow,

01:07:12.400 | and it looks like he has various,

01:07:16.040 | I don't know if these are like Native American rugs

01:07:18.360 | and pictures and artifacts against these walls,

01:07:20.720 | so you're at this completely circular desk,

01:07:25.080 | all the way around the wall is this blonde wood desk,

01:07:28.000 | just looking at artifacts on a blank wall,

01:07:30.480 | up above it is a large,

01:07:32.960 | I don't know how else to think of this,

01:07:34.240 | is like a little cylindrical tower almost,

01:07:36.760 | coming out of the top of this room,

01:07:38.800 | complete circle, like a giant chimney,

01:07:41.880 | and it's a library, it's full of books,

01:07:43.880 | five rows of books all around this giant,

01:07:47.000 | whatever we wanna call it, tower coming out of the office,

01:07:49.800 | there's a really long ladder that goes from the floor

01:07:52.440 | up to these books, these must be 15 feet off the ground,

01:07:55.000 | so you have to walk up this ladder

01:07:56.800 | to get access to these books,

01:07:58.960 | and you can't really see it in this particular photo,

01:08:01.560 | but at the very top of this tower is a giant skylight,

01:08:04.880 | and that's where all the light comes in to this office,

01:08:07.960 | is a skylight through a tower of books

01:08:10.920 | down into this windowless circular room

01:08:15.520 | with a desk going all the way around,

01:08:17.520 | so it's really striking,

01:08:19.100 | here's what they said about it,

01:08:22.200 | here's their explanation,

01:08:23.240 | their architectural statement about this,

01:08:25.960 | while many need light-filled rooms for inspiration,

01:08:29.120 | the person in question here, Wade Davis,

01:08:31.240 | wanted to avoid large window openings

01:08:32.920 | onto a residential neighborhood

01:08:34.160 | and sought a cave-like atmosphere

01:08:36.040 | to disappear into his work,

01:08:38.080 | subtle light was brought in by other means

01:08:40.200 | when the architect built a dome above the client's desk,

01:08:43.640 | which Price describes as similar to the rotunda

01:08:47.760 | of the Oracle's Temple at Delphi,

01:08:50.480 | and they filled it with books that he uses most,

01:08:53.160 | the client, Wade Davis, whimsically calls the spaces

01:08:56.040 | Navajo Kiva of Knowledge.

01:08:59.320 | So we were talking about earlier in the show

01:09:02.160 | how my wife and I are building

01:09:03.680 | this over-the-top library at our house

01:09:05.440 | for among other reasons for me to write in,

01:09:08.280 | here's another example of this philosophy

01:09:10.280 | that aesthetics matters much of functionality

01:09:12.540 | when it comes to workspace,

01:09:13.640 | it's something we should consider,

01:09:15.660 | obviously this is a cool example

01:09:17.000 | of someone building a really personalized

01:09:19.880 | and over-the-top home office,

01:09:21.200 | but I'm sure it's gonna help him do the work that he does.

01:09:24.620 | All right, here's one other cool thing

01:09:27.160 | that came into the interesting @CalNewport email address,

01:09:31.920 | let me read the message that the reader sent me,

01:09:34.320 | "I just wanted to say hi from a listener

01:09:37.160 | "and reader from Mongolia.

01:09:39.420 | "You mentioned recently in your podcast

01:09:41.900 | "the Mongolian version of Deep Work.

01:09:45.160 | "I wanted to let you know that not only is it popular here,

01:09:48.200 | "but also your digital minimalism book in Mongolia

01:09:51.360 | "is a top seller too.

01:09:53.640 | "I shared the attachment, a screenshot

01:09:55.320 | "of a popular book club account here

01:09:57.480 | "which recommends your books in the latest post."

01:10:00.920 | So again, if you're watching at youtube.com/CalNewportMedia,

01:10:04.960 | I'm showing this image now and you can see what Deep Work

01:10:09.200 | and digital minimalism,

01:10:10.960 | what their book covers look like in Mongolia.

01:10:14.300 | So these books do really well, Jesse,

01:10:18.160 | internationally.

01:10:19.760 | Now, I don't know the right way,

01:10:21.200 | like if you call this languages

01:10:22.720 | or I'm not quite sure how it works,

01:10:23.920 | but you have to sell the foreign rights of your book

01:10:27.280 | region by region.

01:10:29.480 | It's like we sold the Mongolian rights of Deep Work,

01:10:31.920 | we sold the Mongolian rights of digital minimalism,

01:10:34.640 | you would sell like in the Portuguese rights,

01:10:36.440 | you would sell the Brazilian rights.

01:10:37.560 | So I guess it's more, I would say countries maybe,

01:10:42.160 | but sometimes you sell the rights to like the UK rights

01:10:45.440 | cover the whole British Commonwealth,

01:10:47.160 | like it covers.

01:10:48.080 | So it's kind of complicated.

01:10:49.320 | So it's kind of languages, it's kind of countries,

01:10:52.380 | whatever you wanna call them,

01:10:53.840 | we're now up to like 45 different foreign territories

01:10:58.840 | or languages.

01:11:00.160 | So I don't know if I say it's in 45 languages,

01:11:01.640 | probably not because some of these countries

01:11:03.160 | speak the same language,

01:11:04.680 | or if it's in 45 countries,

01:11:07.360 | maybe it's more than that.

01:11:09.080 | Like the French African rights covers a lot of countries,

01:11:13.520 | you know, that speak French.

01:11:15.120 | So anyways, all I know is these books,

01:11:17.560 | especially Deep Work and especially digital minimalism,

01:11:20.000 | there's lots of places now,

01:11:21.840 | over 40 different countries or territories and languages,

01:11:25.480 | however you wanna say it around the world

01:11:26.680 | where these books can be found.

01:11:27.720 | So they've been very international.

01:11:29.640 | - Your boy, Rory McIlroy,

01:11:31.040 | has got a big golf tournament this weekend.

01:11:32.720 | So if he wins that, he might be talking about your book.

01:11:34.720 | - Yeah, he won last week, right?

01:11:36.680 | - Yeah, this is the big weekend this weekend now.

01:11:38.680 | - Yeah, so someone sent me,

01:11:39.520 | that was another thing in the interesting,

01:11:42.000 | at calneupra.com address,

01:11:43.360 | someone sent me an interview with Rory

01:11:45.720 | and he had bookmarked two places.

01:11:47.000 | One part where Rory talked about digital minimalism,

01:11:49.760 | and then another part where he was talking about Deep Work.

01:11:52.280 | So I didn't realize he was a Deep Work fan as well.

01:11:54.280 | But then I looked it up

01:11:55.120 | and that interview was from a couple of years ago.

01:11:56.920 | So I was going to take credit for his victory last week,

01:12:01.920 | but it's been a couple of years

01:12:04.320 | since Rory's directly mentioned my books.

01:12:07.000 | But I think it's sunk in.

01:12:08.440 | - He probably talks about it in like the locker room.

01:12:10.160 | - Yeah, yeah, I'm sure there,

01:12:12.320 | his caddy is tired of hearing about it.

01:12:14.280 | Speaking of people who are stacked,

01:12:17.600 | that's also a gentleman.

01:12:18.840 | I don't know if you've seen him recently.

01:12:20.400 | - Yeah, he's a good guy. - He's a small guy

01:12:21.720 | just in general, but his arms are--

01:12:24.840 | - He crushes the ball.

01:12:25.760 | - He crushes the ball, yeah.

01:12:27.160 | We could be the ones to innovate that,

01:12:29.600 | you know, like Tiger Woods brought that to golf.

01:12:32.600 | Being strong is like, it could help in golf before that.

01:12:35.040 | It was, you know, people out of shape.

01:12:36.320 | It was daily, those type of players.

01:12:38.000 | I think we need to bring that to podcasting.

01:12:40.640 | Being incredibly good shape is the key.

01:12:43.640 | Like just being notably, notably strong.

01:12:47.880 | Maybe Joe Rogan already pushed that, I guess.

01:12:49.880 | - Yeah, Jaco, Rogan. - Yeah, all right.

01:12:52.760 | Andrew Huberman.

01:12:54.360 | - Yeah, he's-- - Jacked, yeah.

01:12:56.680 | And he's a professor.

01:12:57.520 | So even in like professor academic podcasts

01:12:59.760 | where someone talks to the camera,

01:13:01.120 | okay, that's too late, I guess.

01:13:03.440 | - Well, Alexander Sharzov, is that a guy's name

01:13:06.080 | from last episode? - Yeah.

01:13:07.520 | - You wanna be like him, work out an hour a day

01:13:09.240 | and get absolute credit.

01:13:10.360 | - Yeah, I got a shout out to Kyle Hunt

01:13:13.760 | from Kyle Hunt Fitness.

01:13:14.880 | He sent me a note and said,

01:13:16.240 | we'll get you the SARS guard status.

01:13:18.800 | We can do it for you.

01:13:19.680 | - Is he in the area?

01:13:20.560 | - No, I think he was just joking around.

01:13:21.840 | - Oh. - But interesting account.

01:13:24.600 | All right, let's talk about a couple ads.

01:13:26.760 | Then I have a couple more questions I wanna get to.

01:13:29.200 | All right, so speaking about health,

01:13:31.720 | let's not forget NAD plus supplementation.

01:13:36.880 | That should be an important part of any health routine

01:13:40.920 | as you age.

01:13:42.480 | Basis by Elysium Health is the most trusted source

01:13:46.880 | for NAD plus supplementation.

01:13:49.400 | Their product basis is clinically proven

01:13:51.400 | to increase levels of NAD plus by 40% safely

01:13:56.400 | and sustainably.

01:13:57.920 | That should be our thing, Jesse.

01:13:58.880 | So there's already podcasters who are jacked.

01:14:02.680 | We'll be the people who bring in the necessity

01:14:05.000 | of NAD plus supplementation for crushing it

01:14:08.520 | in podcasting in your 40s, as we're both about to be.

01:14:12.080 | All right, so if you are interested

01:14:14.280 | in NAD plus supplementation,

01:14:15.600 | Elysium is where you need to look.

01:14:17.000 | Their basis product is what you need to look at.

01:14:20.680 | They product their,

01:14:22.400 | Elysium products target aging at its source.

01:14:25.200 | They are unlike any other health company I've seen

01:14:28.880 | in the sense that they are at the forefront

01:14:30.520 | of NAD plus supplementation.

01:14:32.560 | You look at the scientists involved in this company,

01:14:34.120 | it's very impressive.

01:14:35.200 | You would think it's like a university science department

01:14:37.320 | or something like that.

01:14:38.400 | And if you don't know about NAD plus,

01:14:40.200 | here's my non-expert summary.

01:14:42.680 | It's found in every single cell of your body.

01:14:45.360 | It's responsible for creating energy

01:14:47.000 | and regulating hundreds of cell functions,

01:14:49.200 | but it is something that declines as you age.

01:14:52.640 | Lack of sleep, intense exercise, an unbalanced diet,

01:14:55.480 | sun overexposure, these can also deplete NAD plus levels.

01:14:58.640 | Decreased NAD plus levels are linked

01:15:00.400 | to faster biological aging,

01:15:02.680 | can slow down vital bodily functions.

01:15:05.000 | That's why this basis product is important.

01:15:07.520 | It replenishes youthful levels of NAD plus

01:15:09.920 | to promote healthy aging,

01:15:11.980 | support cellular energy and metabolism

01:15:14.120 | and reduce general tiredness.

01:15:16.500 | All right, so you can get up to youthful levels of NAD plus

01:15:21.560 | up to 40% increases safely and sustainably.

01:15:25.240 | So go to trybasis.com/cal

01:15:31.840 | and enter the code CAL at checkout to save 10%

01:15:34.880 | off basis prepaid plans

01:15:36.640 | as well as other Elysium Health supplements.

01:15:38.880 | That's trybasis.com/cal

01:15:42.640 | and use the code CAL at checkout to save 10%.

01:15:47.520 | Thank you to Elysium Health for sponsoring this episode.

01:15:50.900 | All right, well, let's also talk about Z-biotics.

01:15:58.520 | Rarely have I been more excited about road testing

01:16:02.760 | a potential sponsor's product than I was with Z-biotics.

01:16:07.760 | Let me explain to you what this is.

01:16:09.760 | Z-biotics, pre-alcohol probiotic

01:16:13.600 | is the world's first genetically engineered probiotic.

01:16:17.280 | It was invented by PhD scientists

01:16:18.920 | to tackle rough mornings after drinking.

01:16:23.200 | Here's how it works.

01:16:24.920 | When you drink alcohol,

01:16:25.740 | it gets converted into a toxic by-product in the gut.

01:16:29.800 | It's this by-product, not dehydration.

01:16:32.980 | That's the blame for your rough next day.

01:16:36.720 | Z-biotics produces an enzyme to break it down.

01:16:40.560 | It's designed to work like your liver,

01:16:42.720 | but in your gut where you need it most.

01:16:45.400 | So when you have that night out with your buddies coming up,

01:16:49.200 | when you have that wedding looming,

01:16:53.280 | I just got back from a wedding myself

01:16:54.900 | just a couple of weeks ago,

01:16:56.840 | and you know, gonna have some drinks.

01:16:59.700 | Might be a bit of a late night,

01:17:01.000 | but you still have a full day the next day.

01:17:02.320 | You still need to go do your Alexander Sarsgaard workout.

01:17:06.640 | You still need to do your deep work.

01:17:10.120 | You got a full day and you're not 21 years old anymore.

01:17:12.560 | You're not 24 years old anymore

01:17:13.960 | where you can just roll out of bed.

01:17:15.520 | That's where you throw some Z-biotics into your routine.

01:17:18.740 | You take some, prophylactically helps break down

01:17:23.640 | that harmful by-product the next morning is less rough.

01:17:28.600 | I have tried this out.

01:17:31.520 | I had explained stoically to my wife,

01:17:34.440 | "No, no, no, I need, I'm drinking this beer

01:17:38.640 | as part of the sponsorship investigation for my podcast.

01:17:43.080 | This is a professional justification

01:17:44.940 | for what I'm doing here."

01:17:46.200 | Which she bought, though she's confused

01:17:49.920 | why I have to test out the sponsorship

01:17:52.640 | five days a week for the last six months.

01:17:55.080 | But you know, you wanna be thorough.

01:17:56.160 | Now, but anyways, it works.

01:17:58.480 | You take this, help make that next morning

01:18:01.320 | just a little bit less rough.

01:18:03.400 | Not a cool idea.

01:18:04.480 | So give Z-biotics a try for yourself.

01:18:06.940 | Go to zbiotics.com/cal to get 15% off your first order

01:18:10.840 | when you use that code CAL at checkout.

01:18:13.200 | Z-biotics is based, or is backed, I should say,

01:18:16.840 | with 100% money back guarantee.

01:18:18.360 | So if you're unsatisfied for any reason,

01:18:20.320 | they'll refund your money, no questions asked.

01:18:23.500 | Should note that July 4th is right around the corner.

01:18:29.360 | So you might wanna order a pack of Z-biotics now

01:18:32.280 | for you and your friends,

01:18:33.120 | just to make sure you get it in time

01:18:35.560 | in case you plan on really getting after it

01:18:38.660 | when it comes to celebrating the birth of the nation.

01:18:42.120 | So remember, head to zbiotics.com/cal

01:18:44.600 | and use that code CAL at checkout for 15% off.

01:18:48.800 | Science can do anything these days, Jesse.

01:18:51.040 | - Yep.

01:18:52.760 | - All right, let's see.

01:18:54.640 | Let's do a couple more.

01:18:55.600 | Where are we?

01:18:56.440 | Ooh, kinda doing a long one today, but feeling feisty.

01:19:00.720 | So let's do a couple other questions.

01:19:01.760 | We'll do them quick.

01:19:02.600 | We've got a question here from Sam.

01:19:04.240 | By the way, it's a running joke with me and Jesse.

01:19:07.720 | Me saying let's do this one quick is a complete no-op.

01:19:12.000 | It has no impact or influence

01:19:13.880 | on how long it takes me to answer the next question.

01:19:15.520 | I just say it aspirationally.

01:19:18.040 | But maybe this time I'll actually do it.

01:19:19.920 | All right, Sam asks,

01:19:21.640 | "Is there a way to minimize cognitive residue

01:19:25.480 | "after switching from one time block to another?

01:19:29.280 | "I find it wasteful to have a 15-minute blank

01:19:33.960 | "supposedly required to get out of cognitive revenue

01:19:35.920 | "when switching between tasks.

01:19:38.040 | "I'm wondering whether there's a way to minimize it."

01:19:40.960 | I mean, yes and no, Sam.

01:19:43.440 | Attention residue is a real thing.

01:19:45.440 | If you've been working on this,

01:19:46.600 | now you switch to that,

01:19:47.840 | it's gonna take a little while

01:19:48.960 | until you can be completely up to speed on that.

01:19:51.400 | The neural configuration that got fired up

01:19:54.680 | for the first thing you're doing can't change on time.

01:19:59.680 | You have to inhibit networks,

01:20:01.240 | you have to amplify other networks.

01:20:02.240 | It does take some time.

01:20:03.440 | If you're working on non-demanding tasks,

01:20:07.280 | then you're basically just powering through that residue.

01:20:11.320 | You just sort of understand

01:20:12.400 | if you're cleaning out your email inbox

01:20:15.120 | or trying to batch together 10 unrelated tasks

01:20:19.440 | that you wanna get done right after another,

01:20:21.240 | you're just gonna be functioning at a reduced capacity

01:20:24.400 | because you're gonna constantly have residue.

01:20:25.760 | But if it's not demanding, just be okay.

01:20:27.280 | It's gonna feel a little bit harder.

01:20:28.640 | It's gonna be a little bit more frustrating

01:20:29.960 | than you might like.

01:20:31.640 | But that's just the reality of attention residue.

01:20:34.480 | Couple of things that help with non-demanding tasks,

01:20:37.320 | batch like tasks together.

01:20:40.040 | If you have four scheduling things,

01:20:42.840 | do four scheduling things in a row.

01:20:44.360 | So you're trying to minimize context shifts.

01:20:46.600 | I'll do this with emails.

01:20:49.200 | I'm cleaning my inbox.

01:20:50.040 | I'll actually make a transcript

01:20:51.880 | in my working memory.txt plain text file

01:20:56.200 | of the messages that I need to answer.

01:20:59.960 | Type out little summaries, a couple words,

01:21:01.960 | description of each of these messages I need to answer.

01:21:04.280 | And then I'll move them around in the text file

01:21:05.800 | to cluster them together.

01:21:07.480 | So like questions are together,

01:21:11.040 | similar emails are together.

01:21:14.220 | And then I answer the emails in that order

01:21:16.620 | just to try to reduce to some degree

01:21:18.100 | the negative impact of that context switching.

01:21:23.100 | When it comes to demanding task,

01:21:25.020 | you're working on something deep

01:21:25.940 | and you need to move over to something else deep.

01:21:28.380 | Yeah, it's gonna take 15 minutes

01:21:29.580 | for you to get up and going.

01:21:31.700 | One thing I sometimes suggest

01:21:32.860 | is when you finish deep project A,

01:21:35.820 | immediately get everything set up for the next deep project,

01:21:39.780 | load up the files, go to the right software,

01:21:41.500 | gather what you need.

01:21:43.100 | So it's there and then go and take 10 minutes

01:21:47.180 | to go get coffee or go for a walk,

01:21:49.820 | just to give your mind time

01:21:51.960 | to clear out what it was doing before.

01:21:54.480 | So that when you get back to the next deep task,

01:21:56.900 | it's not so frustrating.

01:21:58.480 | You'll be able to get up and going.

01:22:00.680 | Now it doesn't save you time

01:22:01.780 | and it says you're taking a 10 minute break,

01:22:03.060 | but I'd rather be clearing my head on a 10 minute walk

01:22:05.260 | than I would be trying to work for 10 minutes

01:22:06.960 | and find it very frustrating.

01:22:08.660 | 'Cause if that 10 minutes you find it very frustrating,

01:22:10.540 | you are way more likely to give up.

01:22:13.240 | And be like, I'm just not in the mood to do this

01:22:15.240 | and start checking email.

01:22:16.400 | So that's my tip for dealing with the residue

01:22:18.720 | as you switch between one deep endeavor to another.

01:22:22.980 | All right, Jesse, let's do one more call

01:22:26.040 | before we call it quits.

01:22:26.880 | I think we have one more call in our queue here.

01:22:28.880 | Okay, we've got a great accent here.

01:22:30.840 | Ooh, I love great accents.

01:22:32.140 | - Hi Cal, it's David here

01:22:37.320 | in overcast cloudy Falkirk in central Scotland.

01:22:42.000 | I was pleased to hear your announcement

01:22:43.600 | in episode 197 of your upcoming books

01:22:46.640 | on the deep life and slow productivity.

01:22:49.920 | You made the observation that this is the first book deal

01:22:52.620 | that you've signed since the deep questions podcast began.

01:22:55.920 | And I'm sure that the regular listeners will be excited

01:22:58.120 | to hear your updates as writing progresses.

01:23:01.660 | But it sparked a question for me.

01:23:03.840 | How has the podcast itself influenced your thinking

01:23:08.040 | and therefore your writing choices?

01:23:10.200 | Now, you're clearly responding to trends and forces

01:23:13.120 | that predated 2020 and that were then exacerbated

01:23:17.240 | by an explosion of remote work and digital communication.

01:23:20.780 | And your work has always involved

01:23:22.560 | interviewing interesting people

01:23:24.240 | and interacting with groups

01:23:26.120 | and answering questions when giving talks.

01:23:30.240 | But if the medium really is the message,

01:23:33.480 | has your thinking been pushed in new directions

01:23:36.940 | by immersing yourself in the medium of podcasting?

01:23:40.360 | Or do you think that you would have pitched book proposals

01:23:43.380 | at this point in time with roughly the same subjects,

01:23:46.420 | even if you hadn't started the podcast?

01:23:49.280 | I'm enjoying the show as ever,

01:23:50.940 | and I look forward to reading the new books.

01:23:53.740 | - Well, David, it's a good question.

01:23:56.140 | I don't really know the answer to that counterfactual.

01:23:58.800 | I mean, I can give you the conceptual history

01:24:03.800 | of the deep life.

01:24:06.220 | So that topic, if you trace it back,

01:24:09.280 | that actually got introduced on my blog and email newsletter

01:24:12.180 | at calnewport.com in the first two months

01:24:15.980 | after March of 2020.

01:24:17.660 | So early in the pandemic, I did a lot of writing.

01:24:21.540 | I spent the month where I said I would write every day

01:24:24.260 | because I had a lot of extra intellectual energy

01:24:26.380 | and it just seemed like something to do.

01:24:29.100 | And so I was in a hyper receptive mode

01:24:30.980 | and it was actually pretty early on.

01:24:32.420 | This might've been March or April of 2020

01:24:34.260 | is where I landed on the concept of the deep life.

01:24:37.860 | I was just sensing that in my own life

01:24:39.300 | and I was sensing that from the messages

01:24:40.780 | I was getting from readers,

01:24:41.860 | that there's this big disruption that had occurred

01:24:43.940 | and it was causing people to rethink,

01:24:46.420 | what am I doing with my life,

01:24:47.740 | especially for knowledge workers

01:24:49.000 | that were home with their kids and working remotely

01:24:51.100 | and like, what are we doing here?

01:24:52.320 | And I just felt that energy

01:24:53.500 | and I began to explore it for sure in my writing.

01:24:57.900 | And the podcast started up in May, May, 2020.

01:25:02.300 | And in the very first episode,

01:25:04.220 | I was doing questions on the deep life.

01:25:07.340 | And then I think I broke it up into work technology

01:25:10.220 | and the deep life right from the beginning.

01:25:11.700 | Those are my initial three categories.

01:25:13.260 | So by the time I got to the podcast in May,

01:25:16.360 | I knew that was gonna be a major topic

01:25:18.580 | I was going to explore.

01:25:20.260 | And so the role of the podcast played

01:25:21.860 | is it really gave me a way to work with

01:25:25.000 | and play with that topic,

01:25:26.860 | probably at a faster rate than I could do just with writing.

01:25:31.200 | I think answering four or five questions a week

01:25:34.600 | allowed me to cover a lot more ground than one essay a week,

01:25:38.880 | especially when only some weeks

01:25:40.340 | would be dedicated to that topic.

01:25:41.980 | So I thought about the deep life before the podcast.

01:25:45.960 | I would have almost certainly still developed that concept

01:25:48.340 | and written about it without the podcast,

01:25:49.860 | but the podcast greatly accelerated

01:25:52.140 | the rate at which I could explore

01:25:55.900 | and push on the nooks and the crannies

01:25:57.680 | and find the contours and really start to evolve

01:26:00.160 | and figure this out.

01:26:01.200 | I think all the feedback I got from listeners, questions,

01:26:04.880 | what are they asking about, I would give an answer,

01:26:06.680 | what would they cue into,

01:26:07.560 | then what would I talk about the next episode?

01:26:09.000 | I think a lot of that probably really accelerated

01:26:12.000 | the evolution of the concept

01:26:13.680 | and probably gave me a richer understanding of that concept

01:26:15.960 | than I would have had just writing.

01:26:18.840 | So definitely the podcast took what I had long been doing

01:26:22.000 | with my email newsletter,

01:26:24.520 | which was exploring ideas and getting feedback on ideas

01:26:27.840 | at a faster rate than I could just do books.

01:26:30.880 | And I think it pushed that even farther.

01:26:33.020 | I could explore ideas even more, even get more feedback.

01:26:36.800 | I think the same thing happened with slow productivity.

01:26:40.080 | I introduced it in a blog post.

01:26:42.020 | So I often develop ideas in blog posts,

01:26:46.920 | but pretty quickly began talking about it on the podcast.

01:26:50.640 | Also, I began talking about it in podcast interviews

01:26:53.020 | with other people.

01:26:54.840 | I talked about it with Tim Ferriss

01:26:56.340 | and among some other interviews I did.

01:26:58.920 | And that really helped it develop.

01:27:01.480 | Then I wrote a New Yorker article about it.

01:27:03.320 | That really forced me to really think it through.

01:27:05.340 | And so again, I think sometimes

01:27:07.140 | that slow productivity is similar to deep life.

01:27:09.800 | I introduced the idea in my writing,

01:27:11.600 | I rapidly developed it in this medium,

01:27:14.760 | and then it's coming back into the world of writing

01:27:16.620 | where I can ultimately be the most nuanced about it.

01:27:20.500 | So yeah, I think the podcast has been useful in my ideation.

01:27:26.180 | It did not fundamentally change how that happens,

01:27:28.700 | but it definitely changed the rate and magnitude

01:27:31.380 | at which I can work through concepts.

01:27:34.620 | Also, it's a lot of fun.

01:27:35.860 | So anyways, David, I appreciate the question.

01:27:37.700 | I love the accent too.

01:27:38.800 | I won't try that one.

01:27:43.140 | I have a great French accent, everyone agrees.

01:27:45.400 | I'm not gonna try the Scottish.

01:27:46.940 | We will lose all of our Scottish listeners.

01:27:50.340 | - I'm going to Scotland in August.

01:27:52.420 | - You're gonna play golf?

01:27:53.500 | - Yeah. - Yeah, that's awesome.

01:27:55.380 | That's a cool trip.

01:27:56.820 | - I've been there before, sweet place.

01:27:58.900 | - It's a different type of golf, right?

01:28:01.180 | - Yeah, I've been there.

01:28:02.900 | This will be my fourth time there.

01:28:05.740 | - So are we gonna broadcast deep questions from Scotland?

01:28:08.260 | Is that the idea?

01:28:09.500 | - Yeah, actually I remember vividly,

01:28:11.100 | I was on a jog there before a round and like on the beach,

01:28:14.980 | and that's when you interviewed your buddy

01:28:17.660 | who does the Zytel Massa.

01:28:19.500 | - Oh yeah.

01:28:20.340 | - I remember that so vividly.

01:28:21.540 | - Yeah, Srini.

01:28:24.180 | - Yeah. - Yeah.

01:28:25.420 | Yeah, he was here, came to the studio.

01:28:27.720 | Yeah, it was fun.

01:28:28.980 | All right, well, you've heard it here first.

01:28:30.580 | We will be broadcasting from Scotland

01:28:32.660 | in extensive Scottish studios.

01:28:34.500 | I will be back, I mean, at some point I will be back there.

01:28:36.660 | It's in my contract now.

01:28:38.340 | I don't know if I mentioned it last time,

01:28:39.460 | but the contract I signed with Little Brown in the UK

01:28:42.740 | for the new books,

01:28:45.260 | the contract includes I have to come to the UK.

01:28:48.640 | - You should go to St. Andrews in town.

01:28:50.020 | It's such a cool town.

01:28:50.980 | - I would, I would like to go.

01:28:52.180 | I have a guest bartending job there

01:28:53.740 | when I go over there, that's true.

01:28:56.060 | - Who has the best, Neil Gaiman,

01:28:58.620 | the writer Neil Gaiman,

01:29:00.260 | he bought a property on the Island of Skye.

01:29:03.740 | So it's one of these like Scottish islands.

01:29:06.380 | It looks like one of his books, like a fairy tale land.

01:29:09.500 | And he has a, I don't know what you call it over there,

01:29:11.740 | but like a rolling hills and a house.

01:29:14.580 | And I admire that.

01:29:16.300 | - Yeah.

01:29:17.140 | - Yeah, that's a good use of resources.

01:29:19.420 | Not like Neil Gaiman is, I think he's Dan Brown.

01:29:22.380 | I mean, it's not like, okay,

01:29:23.220 | here's your $50 million a year in earnings.

01:29:25.500 | Like he's a more eccentric, esoteric, brilliant guy.

01:29:28.900 | He does comic books and novels

01:29:31.140 | and all sorts of different things.

01:29:32.020 | I mean, I think he does well.

01:29:33.300 | It's like he's rolling in money.

01:29:34.220 | So I think it's a good strategic investment for him

01:29:37.460 | to have a land on the Isle of Skye.

01:29:40.420 | It looks like a place where fairies live

01:29:43.420 | and that's gotta be so well-suited

01:29:46.040 | for the type of work he does.

01:29:47.100 | - So golf memberships are cheap over there too.

01:29:49.180 | So you can get into golf.

01:29:50.900 | - So what I'll do.

01:29:51.740 | All right.

01:29:52.560 | So I'm gonna buy an island,

01:29:53.400 | an estate on an island in Scotland and play a lot of golf.

01:29:56.420 | - Sounds good.

01:29:57.260 | - All right, I bought it.

01:29:59.020 | Until then though,

01:30:00.300 | thank you everyone for listening to this episode.

01:30:02.540 | If you like what you heard, you will like what you see.

01:30:05.420 | Full episodes and selected clips

01:30:06.940 | are on youtube.com/calnewportmedia.

01:30:10.420 | We'll be back next week with a new episode of the show.

01:30:13.020 | And until then, as always, stay deep.

01:30:15.580 | (upbeat music)

01:30:18.160 | (upbeat music)

Ep. 201: Making a Living Online, Artificial Intelligence, and Reducing Attention Residue

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