Magnus Carlsen: Greatest Chess Player of All Time

00:00:00.000 | The following is a conversation with Magnus Carlsen,

00:00:03.200 | the number one ranked chess player in the world

00:00:05.360 | and widely considered to be one of,

00:00:07.720 | if not the greatest chess player of all time.

00:00:10.340 | The camera on Magnus died 20 minutes into the conversation.

00:00:14.480 | Most folks still just listen to the audio

00:00:16.920 | through a podcast player anyway,

00:00:18.760 | but if you're watching this on YouTube or Spotify,

00:00:23.120 | we did our best to still make it interesting

00:00:25.040 | by adding relevant image overlays.

00:00:28.200 | "I mess things up sometimes, like in this case,

00:00:32.120 | "but I'm always working hard to improve.

00:00:34.480 | "I hope you understand.

00:00:36.680 | "Thank you for your patience and support along the way.

00:00:39.840 | "I love you all."

00:00:40.920 | This is the Lex Friedman Podcast.

00:00:44.080 | To support it, please check out our sponsors

00:00:46.160 | in the description.

00:00:47.440 | And now, dear friends, here's Magnus Carlsen.

00:00:50.920 | You're considered by many to be one of the greatest,

00:00:54.720 | if not the greatest chess players of all time,

00:00:57.200 | but you're also one of the best fantasy football,

00:00:59.360 | AKA soccer, competitors in the world,

00:01:02.240 | plus recently picking up poker

00:01:03.640 | and competing at a world-class level.

00:01:06.320 | So before chess, let's talk football and greatness.

00:01:09.880 | You're a Real Madrid fan,

00:01:12.920 | so let me ask you the ridiculous big question.

00:01:15.040 | Who do you think is the greatest football,

00:01:17.520 | AKA soccer player of all time?

00:01:19.760 | Can you make the case for Messi?

00:01:22.280 | Can you make the case for Cristiano Ronaldo,

00:01:25.240 | Pelé, Maradona?

00:01:26.720 | Does anybody jump to mind?

00:01:28.880 | - I think it's pretty hard to make a case

00:01:30.840 | for anybody else than Messi for his all-around game.

00:01:35.840 | And frankly, my Real Madrid fandom

00:01:42.280 | sort of predates the Ronaldo era,

00:01:47.280 | the second Ronaldo, not the first one.

00:01:50.440 | So I always liked Ronaldo,

00:01:51.920 | but I always kind of thought that Messi was better.

00:01:56.640 | And I went to quite a number of Madrid games

00:02:00.200 | and they've always been super helpful to me down there.

00:02:03.760 | The only thing is that, like, they asked me,

00:02:06.840 | they were gonna do an interview

00:02:08.600 | and they were gonna ask me who my favorite player was.

00:02:11.000 | And I said somebody else,

00:02:14.320 | I think I said Isco at that point,

00:02:15.920 | and I was like, "Okay, take two."

00:02:17.600 | Now you say Ronaldo.

00:02:19.480 | So for them, it was very important,

00:02:22.600 | but it wasn't that huge to me.

00:02:26.520 | - So Messi over Maradona.

00:02:29.080 | - Yeah, but I think just like with chess,

00:02:32.480 | it's hard to compare eras.

00:02:34.640 | Obviously the improvements in football have been,

00:02:37.280 | like, in technique and such have been even greater

00:02:41.080 | than they have been in chess,

00:02:43.240 | but it's always a weird discussion to have.

00:02:49.080 | - But just as a fan,

00:02:50.320 | what do you think is beautiful about the game?

00:02:54.400 | What defines greatness?

00:02:55.760 | Is it, you know, with Messi,

00:02:58.160 | one, he's really good at finishing,

00:03:00.080 | two, very good at assist,

00:03:02.280 | like three, there's just magic.

00:03:03.640 | It's just beautiful to see the play.

00:03:05.480 | So it's not just about the finishing.

00:03:06.960 | There's some, it's like Maradona's hand of God.

00:03:09.800 | There's some creativity on the pitch.

00:03:13.240 | Is that important or is it very important

00:03:15.840 | to get the World Cups and the big championships

00:03:18.200 | and that kind of stuff?

00:03:19.240 | - I think the World Cup is pretty overrated

00:03:22.120 | seeing as it's such a small sample size.

00:03:26.640 | So it sort of annoys me always when, you know,

00:03:31.400 | titles are always appreciated so much,

00:03:35.960 | even though that particular title can be a lot of luck

00:03:40.960 | or at least some luck.

00:03:46.800 | So I do appreciate the statistics a bit

00:03:50.840 | and all the statistics say that Messi's

00:03:54.000 | the best finisher of all time,

00:03:55.840 | which I think helps a lot.

00:03:58.440 | And then there's the intangibles as well.

00:04:01.400 | - The flip side of that is the small sample size

00:04:04.120 | is what really creates the magic.

00:04:10.080 | It's so, it's just like the Olympics.

00:04:12.680 | You basically train your whole life for this.

00:04:15.240 | You live your whole life for this.

00:04:16.560 | And it's a rare moment, one mistake and it's all over.

00:04:20.600 | That's for some reason, a lot of people

00:04:23.920 | either break under that pressure

00:04:25.440 | or rise up under that pressure.

00:04:26.920 | You don't admire the magic of that?

00:04:28.760 | - No, I do.

00:04:29.920 | I just think that like rising under pressure

00:04:34.000 | and breaking under the pressure

00:04:36.200 | is often a really oversimplified,

00:04:39.640 | like take on what's happening.

00:04:44.400 | - Yeah, we do romanticize the game.

00:04:46.200 | - Yeah.

00:04:47.040 | - Well, let me ask you another ridiculous question.

00:04:48.880 | You're also a fan of basketball.

00:04:50.840 | - Yes.

00:04:51.680 | - Let me ask the goat question.

00:04:54.720 | I'm biased because I went to high school in Chicago,

00:04:58.960 | Chicago Bulls during the Michael Jordan era.

00:05:02.400 | Let me ask the Jordan versus LeBron James question.

00:05:07.360 | Let's continue on this thread of greatness.

00:05:10.240 | Which one do you pick or somebody else?

00:05:12.400 | - So I'll give you a completely different answer.

00:05:15.760 | - Uh-oh.

00:05:16.600 | - Depending on my mood and depending on whom I talk to,

00:05:21.440 | I pick one of the two and then I try to argue for that.

00:05:24.600 | - It's a quantum mechanical thing.

00:05:25.720 | Well, can you, again, what would,

00:05:30.600 | if you were to argue for either one?

00:05:32.680 | Statistically, I think LeBron James

00:05:36.920 | is going to surpass Jordan.

00:05:38.720 | - Yeah, no doubt.

00:05:39.880 | - And so, again, there's a debate between--

00:05:44.960 | - Unquantifiable greatness, no?

00:05:46.800 | I mean, that's the whole debate.

00:05:50.160 | - Yes, so it's, well, it's quantifiable

00:05:52.720 | versus unquantifiable.

00:05:54.400 | What's more important?

00:05:55.640 | And you're depending on mood all over the place.

00:05:58.240 | But where do you lean in general with these folks,

00:06:02.520 | with soccer, with anything in life,

00:06:04.800 | towards the unquantifiable more?

00:06:07.800 | - No, definitely towards the quantifiable.

00:06:10.640 | - So when you're unsure, lean towards the numbers.

00:06:12.880 | But see, it's later generations.

00:06:15.800 | There's something, that's what people say about Maradona,

00:06:18.000 | is he took arguably somewhat mediocre team to a World Cup.

00:06:23.000 | So there's that also uplifting nature of the player

00:06:28.760 | to be able to rise up the whole, it is a team sport.

00:06:31.200 | - So are you gonna punish Messi

00:06:36.080 | for taking a mediocre Argentine squad to the final in 2014?

00:06:42.520 | And punish him because they lost to a great team

00:06:46.640 | very narrowly after they missed.

00:06:49.280 | - The internet does.

00:06:50.640 | - He set up a great chance for Higuain in the first half,

00:06:54.760 | which he fluffed.

00:06:57.560 | And then, yeah, eventually they lost the game.

00:07:00.200 | - Yeah, they do criticize Cristiano Ronaldo, Messi,

00:07:02.960 | for being on really strong squads

00:07:04.960 | in terms of the club teams and saying,

00:07:07.920 | yeah, okay, it's easy when you have Ronaldinho

00:07:10.920 | or whoever on your team.

00:07:13.440 | - It would be very interesting

00:07:14.920 | just if the league could make a decision.

00:07:18.720 | - Yeah, just random, random allocation.

00:07:21.800 | - Yeah.

00:07:22.640 | - And just every single game, just keep reallocating,

00:07:28.360 | or maybe once a season, or every season you get random.

00:07:32.280 | - Yeah, but let's say every player,

00:07:37.920 | if let's say they sign a five-year contract for a team,

00:07:41.680 | like one of them, you're gonna get randomly allocated

00:07:43.960 | to let's say a bottom half team.

00:07:46.960 | - I bet you there's gonna be so much corruption around that.

00:07:51.040 | - No, obviously it wouldn't ever happen or work,

00:07:55.000 | but I think it's interesting to think about.

00:07:57.680 | - So on chess, let's zoom out.

00:08:01.560 | If you break down your approach to chess,

00:08:03.600 | when you're at your best,

00:08:06.200 | what do you think contributes to that approach?

00:08:11.200 | Is it memory recall of specific lines and positions?

00:08:15.280 | Is it intuition?

00:08:16.560 | How much of it is intuition?

00:08:18.160 | How much of it is pure calculation?

00:08:20.280 | How much of it is messing with the strategy of the opponent?

00:08:23.360 | So the game theory aspect,

00:08:25.240 | in terms of what contributes to the highest level of play

00:08:28.600 | that you do?

00:08:30.800 | - I think the answer differs a little bit now

00:08:35.680 | from what it did eight years ago, for instance.

00:08:39.840 | Like I feel like I've had like two peaks

00:08:42.400 | in my career in 2014, well, 2013, 2014,

00:08:47.400 | and also in 2019.

00:08:50.600 | And in those years, I was very different

00:08:54.560 | in terms of my strength.

00:09:00.120 | Strength, specifically in 2019,

00:09:03.080 | I benefited a lot from opening preparation.

00:09:06.560 | While in 2013, 2014,

00:09:09.880 | I mostly tried to avoid my opponent's preparation

00:09:14.880 | rather than that being a strength.

00:09:19.120 | So I'm mentioning that also

00:09:21.720 | because it's something you didn't mention.

00:09:26.360 | I think like my intuitive understanding of chess

00:09:30.520 | has over those years always been a little bit better

00:09:35.520 | than the others, even though it has evolved as well.

00:09:40.040 | Certainly there are things that I understand now

00:09:44.360 | that I didn't understand back then,

00:09:46.840 | but that's not only for me, that's for others as well.

00:09:51.080 | I was younger back then, so I played with more energy,

00:09:55.040 | which meant that I could play better

00:09:56.600 | in long drawn out games.

00:10:01.200 | Which was also a necessity for me

00:10:03.240 | 'cause I couldn't beat people in the openings.

00:10:08.240 | But in terms of calculation,

00:10:11.960 | that's always been a weird issue for me.

00:10:15.720 | Like I've always been really, really bad

00:10:19.640 | at solving exercises in chess.

00:10:21.920 | Like that's been like a blind spot for me.

00:10:28.200 | First of all, I found it hard to concentrate on them

00:10:33.200 | and to look deep enough.

00:10:38.240 | - So this is like a puzzle, a position, mate in X.

00:10:42.480 | - I mean, one thing is mate, but find the best move.

00:10:45.520 | That's generally the exercise.

00:10:46.920 | Like find the best move, find the best line.

00:10:49.480 | - You just don't connect with it.

00:10:51.960 | - Usually like you have to look deep.

00:10:54.880 | And then when I get these lines during the game,

00:10:58.440 | I very often find the right solution,

00:11:03.440 | even though it's not still the best part of my game

00:11:09.120 | to calculate very, very deeply.

00:11:17.080 | - But it doesn't feel like calculation you're saying?

00:11:19.880 | In terms of- - No, it does sometimes,

00:11:22.400 | but for me, it's more like I'm at the board

00:11:25.120 | trying to find the solution.

00:11:27.480 | And I understand like the training at home

00:11:30.200 | is like trying a little bit to replicate that.

00:11:33.240 | Like you give somebody half an hour in a position

00:11:37.280 | like in this instance, you might've thought

00:11:40.320 | for half an hour if you play the game.

00:11:42.440 | I just cannot do it.

00:11:44.960 | One thing I know that I am good at though

00:11:47.800 | is calculating short lines.

00:11:52.640 | 'Cause I calculate them well.

00:11:55.040 | I'm good at seeing little details

00:11:58.640 | and I'm also much better than most at evaluating,

00:12:03.640 | which I think is something that sets me apart from others.

00:12:10.320 | - So evaluating specific position.

00:12:14.320 | If I make this move and the position changes in this way,

00:12:20.160 | is this a step in the right direction

00:12:22.560 | like in a big picture way?

00:12:24.080 | - Yeah, like you calculate a few moves ahead

00:12:26.680 | and then you evaluate.

00:12:27.680 | Because a lot of the times you cannot,

00:12:31.760 | the branches become so big

00:12:34.280 | that you cannot calculate everything.

00:12:35.960 | So you have to- - Like a fog.

00:12:37.240 | - Yeah, so you have to make evaluations

00:12:40.160 | based mostly on knowledge and intuition.

00:12:45.160 | And somehow I seem to do that pretty well.

00:12:49.680 | - When you say you're good at short lines, what's that?

00:12:52.280 | What's short?

00:12:53.800 | - That's usually like lines of two to four moves each.

00:12:58.800 | - Okay, so that's directly applicable to even faster games

00:13:02.200 | like Blitz, Chess and so on.

00:13:04.000 | - Yeah, Blitz is a lot about calculating force lines.

00:13:09.000 | So those, you can see pretty clearly

00:13:13.160 | that the players who struggle at Blitz

00:13:15.800 | who are great at classical

00:13:17.280 | are those who rely on a deep calculating ability.

00:13:21.640 | 'Cause you simply don't have time for that in Blitz.

00:13:24.440 | You have to calculate quickly and rely a lot on intuition.

00:13:29.120 | - Can you try to, I know it's really difficult.

00:13:30.800 | Can you try to talk through

00:13:33.360 | what's actually being visualized in your head?

00:13:36.320 | Is there a visual component?

00:13:39.240 | - Yeah, no, I just visualize the board.

00:13:41.320 | I mean, the board is in my head.

00:13:44.800 | - Two dimensional?

00:13:45.880 | - My interpretation is that it is two dimensional.

00:13:49.960 | - Like what colors?

00:13:51.080 | Is it brown tinted?

00:13:52.720 | Is it black?

00:13:53.600 | Is it, like, what's the theme?

00:13:56.160 | Is it a big board, small board?

00:13:58.240 | Are the, what do the pawns look like?

00:14:00.840 | Or is it more in the space of concepts?

00:14:04.120 | Like, is this--

00:14:05.320 | - Yeah, there aren't a lot of colors.

00:14:07.640 | It's mostly, yeah.

00:14:09.040 | - So what is it, Queen's Gambit on the ceiling, whatever?

00:14:13.040 | - I don't know how to imagine it.

00:14:16.120 | - What about when you do the branching,

00:14:17.680 | when you have multiple boards and so on?

00:14:19.440 | How does that look?

00:14:20.280 | - No, but it's only one at a time.

00:14:22.000 | - One position at a time.

00:14:23.360 | - One position at a time, so then I go back.

00:14:25.920 | And that's what, when people play,

00:14:29.280 | or at least that's what I do.

00:14:30.680 | When I play blindfold chess against several people,

00:14:33.440 | then it's just always one board at a time,

00:14:35.880 | and the rest are stored away somewhere.

00:14:39.160 | - But how do you store them away?

00:14:40.520 | So like, you went down one branch,

00:14:42.600 | and you're like, all right, I got that.

00:14:45.560 | I understand that there's some good there,

00:14:47.520 | there's some bad there.

00:14:48.800 | Now let me go down another branch.

00:14:50.400 | Like, how do you store away the information?

00:14:52.680 | You just put it on a shelf, kinda?

00:14:54.520 | - I try and store it away.

00:14:56.040 | Sometimes I have to sort of repeat it because I forget.

00:14:59.480 | And it does happen frequently in games

00:15:02.600 | that you're thinking for,

00:15:07.000 | especially if you're thinking for long,

00:15:08.600 | let's say a half an hour, or even more than that,

00:15:11.240 | that you play a move, and then your opponent plays a move,

00:15:14.760 | then you play a move, and they play a move again,

00:15:17.200 | and you realize, oh, I actually calculated that.

00:15:20.160 | I just forgot about it.

00:15:21.320 | So that's obviously what happens

00:15:24.360 | when you store the information and you cannot retrieve it.

00:15:26.680 | - When you think about a move for 20, 30 minutes,

00:15:30.200 | like, how do you break that down?

00:15:32.400 | Can you describe what, like, what's the algorithm here

00:15:36.800 | that takes 30 minutes to run?

00:15:38.760 | - 30 minutes is, at least for me, it's usually a waste.

00:15:43.160 | 30 minutes usually means that I don't know what to do.

00:15:47.080 | And I'm trying--

00:15:48.800 | - You're just running into the wall over and over.

00:15:49.920 | - Yeah, I'm trying to find something that isn't there.

00:15:52.160 | I think 10 to 15 minutes things

00:15:55.680 | in complicated positions can be really, really helpful.

00:16:00.040 | Then you can spend your time pretty efficiently.

00:16:05.400 | Just means that the branches are getting wide.

00:16:10.400 | There's a lot to run through,

00:16:15.400 | both in terms of calculation

00:16:17.320 | and lots you have to evaluate as well.

00:16:20.040 | And then based on that 10 to 15 minute thing,

00:16:25.040 | you have a pretty good idea what to do.

00:16:29.320 | I mean, it's very rare that I would think for half an hour

00:16:32.560 | and I would have a eureka moment during the game.

00:16:35.600 | Like, if I haven't seen it in 10 minutes,

00:16:37.560 | I'm probably not gonna see it at all.

00:16:39.800 | - You're going to different branches.

00:16:41.280 | - Yeah.

00:16:42.120 | - And like after 15 minutes, it's like--

00:16:43.880 | - But it mainly to the middle game,

00:16:45.280 | because when you get to the end game,

00:16:47.120 | it's usually brute force calculation

00:16:50.320 | that makes you spend so much time.

00:16:52.920 | So middle game is normally,

00:16:55.640 | it's a complicated mix of brute force calculation

00:16:59.520 | and like creativity and evaluation.

00:17:04.520 | So end game, it's easier in that sense.

00:17:10.040 | - Well, you're good at every aspect of chess,

00:17:14.320 | but you're also, your end game is legendary.

00:17:16.640 | It baffles experts.

00:17:18.360 | So can you linger on that then?

00:17:20.280 | Try to explain what the heck is going on there.

00:17:22.240 | Like, if you look at game six

00:17:23.480 | of the previous world championship,

00:17:26.520 | the longest game ever played in chess,

00:17:31.040 | what it was, I think,

00:17:33.680 | his queen versus your rook, knight in two pawns.

00:17:38.480 | - Yeah.

00:17:39.320 | - There's so many options there.

00:17:40.280 | It's such an interesting little dance

00:17:42.520 | and it's kind of not obvious that it wouldn't be a draw.

00:17:45.240 | So how do you escape it not being a draw

00:17:47.920 | and you win that match?

00:17:49.680 | - No, I knew that for most of the time,

00:17:53.320 | it was a theoretical draw.

00:17:55.760 | Since chess with seven or less pieces on the board is solved.

00:18:00.760 | So you can, like people watching online,

00:18:04.320 | they can just check it.

00:18:05.320 | They can check and they can check a so-called table base

00:18:09.440 | and it just gonna spit out win for white,

00:18:13.560 | win for black or a draw.

00:18:15.040 | So, and also I knew that,

00:18:18.120 | I knew that, didn't know that position specifically,

00:18:21.320 | but I knew that it had to be a draw.

00:18:23.720 | So for me, it was about staying alert,

00:18:28.720 | first of all, trying to look for the best way

00:18:33.840 | to put my pieces.

00:18:35.480 | But yeah, those end games are a bit,

00:18:39.440 | they're a bit unusual.

00:18:40.440 | They don't happen too often.

00:18:43.080 | So what I'm usually good at is I'm using my strengths

00:18:47.360 | that I also use in middle games is that I evaluate well

00:18:53.120 | and I calculate short variations quite.

00:18:56.520 | - Even for the end game, short variations matter.

00:18:58.400 | - Yes, it does matter in some simpler end games.

00:19:01.800 | Yeah, but also like there are these theoretical end games

00:19:06.800 | with very few pieces like rook knights

00:19:10.280 | and two pawns versus queens.

00:19:12.120 | But a lot of end games are simply defined

00:19:14.600 | by the queens being exchanged.

00:19:16.760 | And there are a lot of other pieces left

00:19:18.640 | and then it's usually not brute force.

00:19:21.640 | It's usually more of understanding and evaluation

00:19:26.080 | and then I can use my strengths very well.

00:19:30.760 | - Why are you so damn good at the end game?

00:19:32.520 | Isn't there a lot of moves from when the end game starts

00:19:36.440 | to when the end game finishes and you have a few pieces

00:19:38.600 | and you have to figure out,

00:19:39.840 | it's like a sequence of little games that happens, right?

00:19:43.480 | Like little pattern, like how does it being able

00:19:46.440 | to evaluate a single position lead you

00:19:48.400 | to evaluate a long sequence of position

00:19:51.840 | that eventually lead to a checkmate?

00:19:53.800 | - Well, I think if you evaluate well at the start,

00:19:57.640 | you know what plans to go for.

00:19:59.600 | And then usually the play from there

00:20:01.920 | is often pretty simple.

00:20:04.720 | Let's say you understand how to arrange your pieces

00:20:09.720 | and often also how to arrange your pawns early

00:20:15.200 | in the end game, then that makes all the difference.

00:20:20.200 | And after that is like what we call technique very often

00:20:26.480 | that it's technique basically just means

00:20:31.640 | that the moves are simple and these are moves

00:20:36.120 | that a lot of players could make.

00:20:39.440 | Not only the very strongest ones,

00:20:42.080 | these are moves that are kind of understood and known.

00:20:45.840 | - So with the evaluation,

00:20:47.120 | you're just constantly improving a little bit

00:20:49.240 | and that just leads to suffocating the position

00:20:51.840 | and then eventually to the win,

00:20:53.080 | as long as you're doing the evaluation well,

00:20:55.520 | one step at a time.

00:20:56.680 | - To some extent.

00:20:57.880 | Also, yeah, as I said, like if you evaluate it better

00:21:01.120 | and thus accumulated some small advantages,

00:21:05.400 | then you can often make your life pretty easy

00:21:10.600 | towards the end of the end game.

00:21:12.160 | - So you said in 2019, sort of the second phase

00:21:16.360 | of why you're so damn good,

00:21:18.160 | you did a lot of opening preparation.

00:21:21.040 | What's the goal for you of the opening game of chess?

00:21:26.040 | Is it to throw the opponent off from any prepared lines?

00:21:31.040 | Is there something you could put into words

00:21:33.080 | about why you're so damn good at the openings?

00:21:35.960 | - Again, these things have changed a lot over time.

00:21:40.000 | Back in Kasparov's days, for instance,

00:21:43.200 | he very often got huge advantages from the opening as white.

00:21:48.200 | - Can you explain why?

00:21:51.120 | - There were several reasons for that.

00:21:54.400 | First of all, he worked harder.

00:21:56.520 | He was more creative in finding ideas.

00:21:59.280 | He was able to look places others didn't.

00:22:03.120 | Also, he had a very strong team of people

00:22:05.600 | who had specific strengths in openings that he could use.

00:22:10.600 | - So they would come up with ideas

00:22:13.000 | and he would integrate those ideas into-

00:22:15.760 | - Yeah, and he would also very often come up with them himself.

00:22:19.840 | Also, at the start, he had some of the first

00:22:24.840 | computer engines to work for him to find his ideas,

00:22:30.560 | to look deeper, to verify his ideas.

00:22:34.360 | He was better at using them than a lot of others.

00:22:39.160 | Now, I feel like the playing field is a lot more level.

00:22:44.160 | There are both computer engines, neural networks,

00:22:48.960 | and hybrid engines available to practically anybody.

00:22:53.800 | So it's much harder to find ideas now

00:22:58.800 | that actually give you an advantage

00:23:03.280 | with the white pieces.

00:23:05.160 | I mean, people don't expect to find those ideas anymore.

00:23:08.320 | Now it's all about finding ideas that are missed

00:23:13.320 | by the engines, either they're missed entirely

00:23:18.720 | or they're missed at low depth,

00:23:20.960 | and using them to gain some advantage

00:23:25.960 | in the sense that you have more knowledge.

00:23:28.360 | And it's also good to know that usually

00:23:33.360 | these are not complete bluffs, these are like semi-bluffs

00:23:37.280 | so that you know that even if your opponent

00:23:39.480 | makes all the right moves, you can still make a draw.

00:23:43.240 | And also at the start of 2019,

00:23:46.880 | neural networks had just started to be a thing in chess.

00:23:50.600 | And I'm not entirely sure,

00:23:52.880 | but there were at least some players,

00:23:56.400 | even in the top events, who you could see did not use them

00:24:00.240 | or did not use them in the right way.

00:24:02.360 | And then you could gain a huge advantage

00:24:04.840 | because a lot of positions,

00:24:06.600 | they were being evaluated differently by the neural networks

00:24:10.520 | than traditional chess engines

00:24:12.920 | because they simply think about chess

00:24:15.800 | in a very, very different way.

00:24:18.640 | So short answer is these days,

00:24:21.680 | it's all about surprising your opponent

00:24:25.160 | and taking it into position where you have more knowledge.

00:24:29.280 | - So is there some sense in which it's okay

00:24:31.880 | to make suboptimal quote unquote moves?

00:24:34.800 | - No, but you have to.

00:24:36.200 | I mean, you have to because the best moves

00:24:39.480 | have been analyzed to death mostly.

00:24:42.520 | - So that's a kind of, when you say semi-bluff,

00:24:44.600 | that's a kind of sacrifice.

00:24:46.560 | You're sacrificing the optimal move, the optimal position

00:24:51.560 | so that you can take the opponent.

00:24:53.920 | I mean, that's a game theoretic sense.

00:24:55.840 | You take the opponent to something they didn't prepare well.

00:24:59.040 | - Yeah, but you could also look at it another way

00:25:02.360 | that regardless, like if you turn on,

00:25:06.360 | whatever engine you turn on,

00:25:08.200 | like if you try to analyze either from the starting position

00:25:11.440 | or the starting position of some popular opening,

00:25:14.960 | like if you analyze long enough,

00:25:17.400 | it's always gonna end up in a draw.

00:25:19.360 | So in that sense, you may not be going

00:25:23.160 | for like the objective, the tries that are objectively

00:25:27.560 | the most difficult to draw against,

00:25:29.760 | but you are trying to look at least

00:25:32.280 | at the less obvious paths.

00:25:35.400 | - How much do you use engines?

00:25:37.680 | Do you use Leela, Stockfish in your preparations?

00:25:41.880 | - My team does.

00:25:43.600 | Personally, I try not to use them too much on my own

00:25:48.600 | because I know that when I play,

00:25:51.920 | you obviously cannot have help from engines.

00:25:54.960 | And I feel like often having imperfect

00:25:59.480 | or knowledge about a position

00:26:03.760 | or some engine knowledge can be a lot worse

00:26:06.160 | than having no knowledge.

00:26:09.520 | So I try to look at engines as little as possible.

00:26:13.400 | - So yeah, so your team uses them for research,

00:26:15.840 | for a generation of ideas,

00:26:17.680 | but you are relying primarily on your human resources.

00:26:22.680 | - Yeah, for sure.

00:26:24.440 | - You can evaluate well, you don't lean.

00:26:26.760 | - Yeah, I can evaluate as a human.

00:26:29.000 | I can know what they find unpleasant and so on.

00:26:33.320 | And it's very often the case for me to some extent,

00:26:38.320 | but a lot for others that you arrive in a position

00:26:42.160 | and your opponent plays a move that you didn't expect.

00:26:46.280 | And if you didn't expect it,

00:26:49.520 | you know that it's probably not a great move

00:26:51.880 | since it hasn't been expected by the engine.

00:26:54.520 | But if it's not obvious why it's not a good move,

00:26:59.520 | it's usually very, very hard to figure it out.

00:27:03.840 | And so then looking at the engines doesn't necessarily help

00:27:08.360 | because at that point, like you're facing a human,

00:27:10.880 | you have to sort of think as a human.

00:27:14.040 | - I was chatting with Demis Hassabis,

00:27:15.920 | CEO of DeepMind a couple of days ago,

00:27:17.480 | and he asked me to ask you about what you first felt

00:27:20.800 | when you saw the play of AlphaZero.

00:27:24.920 | Like interesting ideas, any creativity.

00:27:28.720 | Did you feel fear that the machine is taking over?

00:27:31.480 | Were you inspired?

00:27:32.840 | And what was going on in your mind and heart?

00:27:37.240 | - Funny thing about Demis is he doesn't play chess at all

00:27:42.280 | like an AI.

00:27:44.240 | He plays in a very, very human way.

00:27:48.560 | No, I was hugely inspired when I saw the games at first.

00:27:53.360 | And in terms of man versus machine,

00:27:58.200 | I mean, that battle was kind of lost for humans

00:28:02.080 | even before I entered top level chess.

00:28:07.080 | So that's never been an issue for me.

00:28:10.440 | I never liked playing as computers much anyway.

00:28:14.160 | So that's completely fine,

00:28:16.080 | but it was amazing to see how they "thought about chess"

00:28:21.080 | and in such a different way

00:28:23.480 | and in a way that you could mistake for creativity.

00:28:27.640 | - Mistake for creativity, strong words.

00:28:30.480 | Is it wild to you how many sacrifices it's willing to make

00:28:33.400 | that like sacrifice pieces

00:28:35.400 | and then wait for prolonged periods of time

00:28:37.320 | before doing anything with that?

00:28:38.960 | Is that weird to you that that's part of chess?

00:28:42.480 | - No, it's one of the things that's hardest to replicate

00:28:46.520 | as a human as well, or at least for my playing style

00:28:50.640 | that usually when I sacrifice, I feel like I'm, you know,

00:28:55.520 | I don't do it unless I feel like I'm getting something

00:28:58.880 | like tangible in return.

00:29:02.240 | And-

00:29:03.360 | - Like a few moves down the line.

00:29:04.960 | - A few moves down the line,

00:29:06.200 | you can see that you can either retrieve the material

00:29:08.800 | or you can put your opponent's king under pressure

00:29:12.240 | or have some very like very concrete positional advantage

00:29:16.680 | that sort of compensates for it.

00:29:20.520 | For instance, in chess,

00:29:22.800 | so bishops and knights are fairly equivalent.

00:29:25.640 | We both give them three points,

00:29:28.600 | but bishops are a little bit better.

00:29:30.360 | And especially a bishop pair is a lot better

00:29:33.360 | than a bishop and a knight.

00:29:36.080 | So, or especially two knights depends on the position,

00:29:40.440 | but like on average they are.

00:29:44.120 | So like sacrificing a pawn in order to get a bishop pair,

00:29:49.120 | that's one of the most common sacrifices in chess.

00:29:52.360 | - Oh, you're okay making that sacrifice?

00:29:53.560 | - Yeah, I mean, it depends on the situation,

00:29:55.720 | but generally that's fine.

00:29:57.600 | And there are a lot of openings that are based on that,

00:30:00.040 | that you sacrifice a pawn for the bishop pair

00:30:03.320 | and then eventually it's some sort of positional equality.

00:30:07.360 | So that's fine.

00:30:08.440 | But the way AlphaZero would sacrifice a knight

00:30:13.440 | or sometimes two pawns, three pawns,

00:30:18.440 | and you could see that it's looking

00:30:20.000 | for some sort of positional domination,

00:30:22.000 | but it's hard to understand.

00:30:24.320 | And it was really fascinating to see.

00:30:28.760 | Yeah, in 2019, I was sacrificing a lot of pawns especially,

00:30:33.760 | and it was a great joy.

00:30:36.560 | Unfortunately, it's not so easy to continue to do that.

00:30:40.000 | People have found more solid opening lines

00:30:44.720 | since that don't allow me to do that as often.

00:30:48.760 | I'm still trying both to get those positions

00:30:51.160 | and still trying to learn the art of sacrificing pieces.

00:30:56.560 | - So Demis also made a comment that was interesting

00:31:01.200 | to my new chess brain,

00:31:03.200 | which is one of the reasons that chess is fun

00:31:05.480 | is because of the, quote,

00:31:06.560 | "creative tension between the bishop and the knight."

00:31:09.440 | So you're talking about this interesting difference

00:31:13.360 | between the two pieces,

00:31:14.720 | but there's some kind of, how would you convert that?

00:31:17.680 | I mean, that's like a poetic statement about chess.

00:31:20.400 | I think he said that,

00:31:21.520 | why has chess been played for such a long time?

00:31:24.000 | Why is it so fun to play at every level?

00:31:26.760 | That if you can reduce it to one thing,

00:31:28.600 | is it the bishop and the knight,

00:31:31.240 | some kind of weird dynamics that they create in chess.

00:31:34.360 | Is there any truth to that?

00:31:36.440 | - It sounds very good.

00:31:38.320 | I haven't tried a lot of other games,

00:31:41.000 | but I tried to play a little bit of shogi.

00:31:43.440 | And for my new shogi brain, comparing it to chess,

00:31:48.160 | what annoyed me about that game

00:31:49.760 | is how much the pieces suck.

00:31:52.960 | Basically, you have one rook and you have one bishop

00:31:55.480 | that move like in chess,

00:31:56.840 | and the rest of the pieces are really not very powerful.

00:32:01.720 | So I think that's one of the attractions of chess,

00:32:05.560 | like how powerful, especially the queen is, which-

00:32:10.400 | - Interesting.

00:32:11.280 | - I kind of think makes it, makes it a lot of fun.

00:32:14.480 | - So you think power is more fun than like variety?

00:32:20.360 | - No, there is variety in chess as well, though.

00:32:23.480 | - But not much more so than like,

00:32:26.600 | - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

00:32:28.280 | That's for-

00:32:29.680 | - So like knight, I mean, they all move in different ways.

00:32:32.520 | They're all like weird.

00:32:33.880 | There's just all these weird patterns

00:32:35.800 | and positions that can emerge.

00:32:37.440 | The difference in the pieces

00:32:38.640 | create all kinds of interesting dynamics,

00:32:40.440 | I guess is what I'm trying to say.

00:32:41.480 | - Yeah.

00:32:42.400 | And I guess it is quite fascinating

00:32:44.880 | that all those years ago,

00:32:47.080 | they created the knight and the bishop

00:32:50.280 | without probably realizing that they would be

00:32:53.680 | almost equally strong with such different qualities.

00:32:57.640 | - That's crazy that this, you know,

00:32:59.560 | like when you design computer games,

00:33:02.000 | it's like an art form, it's science and an art to balance it.

00:33:06.120 | You know, you talk about Starcraft and all those games,

00:33:09.400 | like so that you can have competitive play

00:33:12.040 | at the highest level with all those different units.

00:33:15.280 | And in the case of chess, it's different pieces

00:33:19.240 | and they somehow designed a game that was super competitive.

00:33:22.800 | But there's probably some kind of natural selection

00:33:24.520 | that the chess just wouldn't last

00:33:26.040 | if it was designed poorly.

00:33:27.560 | - Yeah.

00:33:28.400 | And I think the rules have changed over time a little bit.

00:33:33.400 | But I would be, I mean, speaking of games and all that,

00:33:37.680 | I'm also interested to play other games like chess 960

00:33:44.120 | or Fisher Random, as they call it,

00:33:46.040 | like that you have 960 maps instead of one.

00:33:50.560 | - Yeah, so for people who don't know,

00:33:52.400 | a Fisher Random chess, chess 960 is-

00:33:54.680 | - Yeah, that basically just means

00:33:56.160 | that the pawns are in the same way

00:33:57.720 | and the major pieces are distributed randomly

00:34:02.720 | on the last rank.

00:34:04.520 | Only that there have to be obviously bishops

00:34:06.840 | of opposite color and the king has to be

00:34:09.520 | in between the rooks so that you can castle both ways.

00:34:12.480 | - Oh, you can still castle in chess 960.

00:34:13.800 | - You can still castle, but it makes it interesting.

00:34:16.440 | So you still have, it still castles in the same way.

00:34:20.600 | So let's say the king is like-

00:34:23.000 | - Yeah, what happens in that case?

00:34:24.120 | - Yeah, let's say the king is in the corner.

00:34:26.600 | So to castle this side,

00:34:29.800 | you have to clear a whole lot of pieces.

00:34:32.280 | - What would castling look like though?

00:34:35.320 | - No, the king would go here and the rook would go there.

00:34:38.080 | - Oh, okay.

00:34:39.360 | - And that's happened in my games as well.

00:34:41.680 | Like I forgot about castling

00:34:43.720 | and I've been like attacking a king over here

00:34:46.920 | and then all of a sudden it escapes to the other side.

00:34:50.560 | I think Fischer chess is good that it's,

00:34:55.560 | the maps will generally be worse than regular chess.

00:35:02.000 | Like I think the starting position is as close to ideal

00:35:08.320 | for creating a competitive game as possible

00:35:11.600 | but they will still be like interesting

00:35:13.400 | and diverse enough that you can play

00:35:16.040 | very, very interesting games.

00:35:18.480 | - So when you say maps, there's 960 different options

00:35:21.080 | and like what fraction of that creates interesting games

00:35:24.880 | at the highest level?

00:35:26.120 | And this is something that a lot of people are curious about

00:35:28.640 | because when you challenge a great chess player

00:35:32.160 | like yourself to look at a random starting position,

00:35:37.160 | that feels like it pushes you to play pure chess

00:35:41.240 | versus memorizing lines and all that kind of stuff.

00:35:43.280 | - For sure, but that's the whole idea.

00:35:45.280 | - Yeah.

00:35:46.120 | - That's what you want and--

00:35:47.240 | - How hard is it to play?

00:35:48.160 | I mean, can you talk about what it feels like to you

00:35:50.560 | to play with a random starting position?

00:35:53.000 | Is there some intuition you've been building up?

00:35:55.440 | - It's very, very different.

00:35:57.200 | And I mean, understandably engines have

00:36:02.000 | an even greater advantage in 960

00:36:05.040 | than they have in classical chess.

00:36:08.400 | No, it's super interesting.

00:36:09.880 | And that's why also I really wish

00:36:13.840 | that we played more classical chess,

00:36:17.760 | like long games, four to seven hours

00:36:21.600 | and in fish random chess, chess 960,

00:36:25.800 | because then you really need that time.

00:36:29.680 | Even on the first moves, what usually happens

00:36:32.640 | is that you get 15 minutes before the game,

00:36:34.960 | you're getting told the position 15 minutes before the game

00:36:37.760 | and then you can think about it a little bit,

00:36:40.520 | even check the computer, but that's all the time you have.

00:36:45.200 | But then you really need to figure it out.

00:36:46.840 | And some of the positions obviously

00:36:50.880 | are a lot more interesting than the others.

00:36:53.360 | In some of them, it appears that

00:36:55.360 | if you don't play symmetrically at the start,

00:37:00.280 | then you're probably gonna be in a pretty bad position.

00:37:03.840 | - What do you mean, with the pawns?

00:37:04.960 | - With the pawns, yeah.

00:37:06.480 | - How does that make sense?

00:37:08.320 | - That's the thing about chess though.

00:37:09.960 | So let's say white opens with e4,

00:37:13.160 | which has always been the most played move.

00:37:17.360 | There are many ways to meet that,

00:37:18.880 | but the most solid ways of playing

00:37:21.400 | has always been the symmetrical response with e5.

00:37:24.680 | And then there's the Ruy Lopez,

00:37:27.080 | there's the Petrov opening and so on.

00:37:30.640 | And if you just ban symmetry on the first move in chess,

00:37:35.640 | you would get more interesting games.

00:37:37.720 | - Oh, interesting.

00:37:39.040 | - Or you'd get more decisive games.

00:37:43.480 | So that's the good thing about chess

00:37:45.280 | is that we've played it so long

00:37:46.720 | that we've actually devised non-symmetrical openings

00:37:50.120 | that are also fairly equal.

00:37:52.160 | - But symmetry is a good default.

00:37:55.320 | - But yeah, symmetry is a good default.

00:37:57.040 | And it's a problem that by playing symmetrical

00:38:00.880 | armed with good preparation in regular chess

00:38:03.600 | it's just a little bit too easy to,

00:38:06.800 | it's a little bit too drawish.

00:38:08.400 | And I guess if you analyzed a lot in chess 960,

00:38:13.400 | then a lot of the position would end up

00:38:19.800 | being pretty drawish as well.

00:38:23.680 | - Oh, 'cause the random starting points are so shitty,

00:38:26.960 | you're forced to-

00:38:28.160 | - You're actually forced to play symmetrically.

00:38:30.720 | You cannot actually try and play

00:38:33.280 | in a more sort of interesting manner.

00:38:36.560 | - Is there any other kind of variations

00:38:39.280 | that are interesting to you?

00:38:41.360 | - Oh yeah, there are several.

00:38:43.600 | So no castling chess has been promoted

00:38:48.600 | by former world champion, Vladimir Kramnik.

00:38:52.200 | There have been a few tournaments with that,

00:38:55.040 | not any that I've participated in though.

00:38:59.280 | I kind of like it.

00:39:00.720 | Also my coach uses like non-castling engines quite a bit

00:39:05.640 | to analyze regular positions

00:39:08.720 | just to get a different perspective.

00:39:13.240 | - So castling is like a defensive thing.

00:39:15.160 | So if you remove castling,

00:39:16.800 | it forces you to be more offensive, is that why?

00:39:19.240 | - Yeah, it just, yeah, for sure.

00:39:23.240 | - It seems like a tiny little difference.

00:39:26.240 | - No castling probably forces you

00:39:28.400 | to be a little bit more defensive at the start,

00:39:31.840 | or I would guess so,

00:39:33.760 | because you cannot suddenly escape with the kings.

00:39:37.560 | It's gonna make the game a bit slower at the start,

00:39:40.040 | but I feel like eventually it's gonna make the games more,

00:39:45.040 | well, less drawish for sure.

00:39:51.360 | Then you have some weirder variants

00:39:53.760 | like where the pawns can move,

00:39:56.120 | both diagonally and forward.

00:40:01.120 | And also you have self-capture chess,

00:40:04.680 | which is quite interesting.

00:40:06.440 | So the pawns can, or-

00:40:08.880 | - Commit suicide?

00:40:10.440 | - Yeah, people can-

00:40:11.440 | - Why would that be a good move?

00:40:13.920 | - No, sometimes one of your pieces occupy a square.

00:40:17.640 | I mean, let me just set up a position.

00:40:20.880 | Let's put it like this, for instance,

00:40:25.880 | like here, I mean, there are a lot of ways to checkmate

00:40:29.000 | for white, like this, for instance,

00:40:30.560 | or there are several ways,

00:40:32.680 | but like this would be a checkmate.

00:40:36.640 | - Oh, cool.

00:40:38.200 | For people who are just listening,

00:40:39.440 | yeah, basically you're bringing in a knight

00:40:41.760 | close to the king, the queen, and so on,

00:40:45.120 | and you replace the knight with a queen.

00:40:46.920 | Yeah, that's interesting.

00:40:47.840 | So you can have like a front of pieces

00:40:51.840 | and then you just replace them with the second piece.

00:40:54.280 | - Yeah, I mean, that could be interesting.

00:40:56.560 | I think also maybe sometimes it's just clearance, basically.

00:41:00.960 | It adds an extra element of clearance.

00:41:04.840 | So I think there are many, many different variants.

00:41:09.600 | I don't think any of them are better

00:41:12.360 | than the one that has been played

00:41:14.760 | for at least a thousand years,

00:41:17.040 | but it's certainly interesting to see.

00:41:22.320 | - So one of your goals is to reach

00:41:23.960 | the FIDE ELO chess rating of 2,900.

00:41:27.840 | Maybe you can comment on how is this rating calculated

00:41:30.320 | and what does it take to get there?

00:41:33.520 | Is it possible for a human being to get there?

00:41:36.120 | - Basically you play with a factor of 10,

00:41:39.760 | which means that if I were to play against

00:41:42.280 | an opponent who's rated the same as me,

00:41:46.200 | I would be expected to score 50%, obviously,

00:41:50.520 | and that means that I would win five points with a win,

00:41:54.320 | lose five points with a draw, and then equal if I draw.

00:41:57.720 | If your opponent is 200 points lower rated,

00:42:00.720 | you're expected to score 75% and so on.

00:42:05.640 | - And you establish that rating by playing a lot of people

00:42:08.000 | and then it slowly converges towards an estimate

00:42:11.000 | of how likely you are to win or lose against different people.

00:42:13.160 | - Yeah, and my rating is obviously carried

00:42:16.560 | through thousands of games.

00:42:20.600 | Right now my rating is 2,861, which is decent.

00:42:25.600 | I think that pretty much corresponds

00:42:28.840 | to the level I have at the moment,

00:42:32.560 | which means in order to reach 2,900,

00:42:36.200 | I would have to either get better at chess,

00:42:39.960 | which I think is fairly hard to do,

00:42:44.960 | at least considerably better.

00:42:47.160 | So what I would need to do is try and optimize even more

00:42:52.160 | in terms of-- - The matchups,

00:42:54.800 | the game you play. - Preparations, everything.

00:42:56.240 | But not necessarily selecting tournaments and so on,

00:42:59.640 | but just optimizing in terms of preparation,

00:43:04.280 | like making sure I never have any bad days.

00:43:08.840 | - So you basically can't lose.

00:43:10.560 | - Yeah, I basically can't fuck up ever

00:43:15.280 | if I wanna reach that goal.

00:43:17.480 | And so I think reaching 2,900 is pretty unlikely.

00:43:22.480 | The reason I've set the goal is to have something

00:43:26.320 | to play for, to have a motivation

00:43:31.080 | to actually try and be at my best when I play,

00:43:35.960 | because otherwise I'm playing to some extent

00:43:40.560 | mostly for fun these days in that I love to play,

00:43:45.480 | I love to try and win, but I don't have a lot to prove

00:43:50.480 | or anything, but that gives me at least the motivation

00:43:55.120 | to try and be at my best all the time,

00:43:59.000 | which I think is something to aim for.

00:44:02.240 | So at the moment, I'm quite enjoying that process

00:44:05.800 | of trying to optimize.

00:44:10.800 | - What would you say motivates you in this now

00:44:15.600 | and in the years leading up to now,

00:44:18.000 | the love of winning or the fear of losing?

00:44:21.120 | - So for the World Championship,

00:44:25.880 | it's been fear of losing for sure.

00:44:29.400 | Other tournaments, love of winning is a great, great factor.

00:44:35.200 | And that's why I also get more joy

00:44:36.880 | from winning most tournaments than I do

00:44:39.400 | for winning the World Championship,

00:44:41.280 | because then it's mostly been a relief.

00:44:44.640 | I also think I enjoy winning more now than I did before

00:44:48.600 | because I feel like I'm a little bit more relaxed now.

00:44:52.920 | And I also know that it's not gonna last forever.

00:44:57.160 | So every little win, I appreciate a lot more now.

00:45:03.040 | And yeah, in terms of fear of losing,

00:45:05.680 | that's a huge reason why I'm not gonna play

00:45:08.720 | the World Championship,

00:45:09.640 | because it really didn't give me a lot of joy.

00:45:14.640 | It really was all about avoiding losing.

00:45:17.320 | - Why is it that the World Championship

00:45:19.320 | really makes you feel this way?

00:45:21.000 | The anxiety.

00:45:22.280 | So, and when you say losing, do you mean not just the match,

00:45:26.240 | but every single position, the fear of a blunder?

00:45:31.440 | - No, I mean, the blunder is okay.

00:45:33.160 | Like when I sit down at the board,

00:45:35.160 | then it's mostly been fine,

00:45:36.600 | because then I'm focused on the game.

00:45:40.760 | And then I know that I can play the game.

00:45:42.680 | It's a time like in between, like knowing that,

00:45:45.600 | I feel like losing is not an option

00:45:49.280 | because it's the World Championship.

00:45:50.840 | And because in a World Championship, there are two players.

00:45:53.480 | There's a winner and a loser.

00:45:56.280 | If I don't win a random tournament that I play,

00:45:59.920 | then I'm usually, it depends on the tournament.

00:46:03.840 | I might be disappointed for sure,

00:46:06.480 | might even be pretty pissed,

00:46:07.920 | but ultimately, you go on to the next one.

00:46:12.080 | With the World Championship,

00:46:13.000 | you don't go on to the next one.

00:46:15.080 | It's like, it's years.

00:46:17.560 | - Yeah.

00:46:18.400 | - And it also has been like,

00:46:21.040 | it's been a core part of my identity for a while now

00:46:24.440 | that I am World Champion.

00:46:26.640 | And so there's not an option of losing that.

00:46:31.640 | - Yeah.

00:46:32.640 | Yeah, you're gonna have to,

00:46:34.520 | at least for a couple of years,

00:46:36.160 | carry the weight of having lost.

00:46:39.600 | You're the former World Champion now,

00:46:42.520 | if you lose versus the current World Champion.

00:46:46.160 | There are certain sports that create that anxiety

00:46:51.160 | and others that don't.

00:46:52.520 | For example, I think UFC makes martial arts

00:46:55.800 | are a little better with losing.

00:46:57.760 | It's understood, like everybody loses.

00:47:00.560 | - Not everybody though.

00:47:01.960 | - Not everybody, not everybody, not everybody.

00:47:04.640 | (laughing)

00:47:05.880 | Kabib entered the chat.

00:47:07.240 | But in boxing, there is like that extra pressure

00:47:11.600 | of like maintaining the championship.

00:47:13.680 | I mean, maybe you could say the same thing

00:47:15.080 | about the UFC as well.

00:47:17.360 | So for you personally, for a person who loves chess,

00:47:22.200 | the first time you won the World Championship,

00:47:23.920 | that was the thing that was fun.

00:47:28.120 | - Yeah.

00:47:28.960 | - And then everything after is like stressful.

00:47:32.120 | - Yeah.

00:47:33.680 | Essentially.

00:47:34.720 | There was certainly stress involved the first time as well,

00:47:38.240 | but it was nothing compared to the others.

00:47:44.440 | So the only World Championship after that

00:47:46.880 | that I really enjoyed was the one in 2018

00:47:49.600 | against the American Fabiano Caruana.

00:47:51.760 | And what made that different is that I'd been kind of

00:47:55.840 | slumping for a bit and he'd been on the rise.

00:47:58.720 | So our ratings were very, very similar.

00:48:01.680 | They were so close that if at any point during the match,

00:48:06.520 | I'd lost the game,

00:48:07.640 | he would have been ranked as number one in the world.

00:48:12.360 | Like our ratings were so close that for each draw,

00:48:15.080 | they didn't move.

00:48:15.920 | - And the game itself was close.

00:48:18.760 | - Yeah, the games themselves were very close.

00:48:21.640 | I had a winning position in the first game

00:48:26.600 | that I couldn't really get anywhere for a lot of games.

00:48:28.840 | Then he had a couple of games where

00:48:31.760 | he could potentially have won.

00:48:34.080 | Then in the last game, I was a little bit better.

00:48:37.000 | And eventually they were all drawn.

00:48:40.480 | But I felt like all the way that this is an interesting

00:48:42.920 | match against an opponent who is at this position,

00:48:47.600 | at this point equal to me.

00:48:49.680 | And so losing that would not have been a disaster

00:48:53.600 | because in all the other matches,

00:48:55.400 | I would know that I would have lost against somebody

00:48:59.200 | who I know I'm much better than.

00:49:02.240 | And that would be a lot harder for me to take.

00:49:07.240 | - Well, that's fascinating and beautiful

00:49:09.000 | that the stress isn't from losing,

00:49:11.280 | because you have fun.

00:49:14.400 | You enjoy playing against somebody who's as good as you,

00:49:17.200 | maybe better than you.

00:49:18.720 | That's exciting to you.

00:49:20.160 | - Yeah.

00:49:21.000 | - It's losing at this high stakes thing

00:49:24.360 | that only happens rarely to a person

00:49:27.360 | who's not as good as you.

00:49:28.600 | - Yeah, and that's why it's also been incredibly frustrating

00:49:31.720 | in other matches, like when I know,

00:49:34.440 | when we play draw after draw,

00:49:36.840 | and I can just, I know that I'm better.

00:49:39.520 | I can sense during the game that I understand

00:49:42.400 | it better than them, but I cannot, you know,

00:49:44.400 | I cannot get over the hump.

00:49:46.200 | - So you are the best chess player in the world

00:49:51.120 | and you not playing the world championship

00:49:53.600 | really makes the world championship not seem important.

00:49:58.120 | Or, I mean, there's an argument to be made for that.

00:50:01.400 | Is there anything you would like to see

00:50:03.720 | for you to change about the world championship

00:50:05.480 | that would make it more fun for you

00:50:07.080 | and better for the game of chess period

00:50:09.200 | for everybody involved?

00:50:10.640 | - So I think 12 games or now 14 games

00:50:14.400 | that there is for the world championship

00:50:16.120 | is a fairly low sample size.

00:50:20.160 | If you want to determine who the best player is,

00:50:23.120 | or at least the best player in that particular matchup,

00:50:26.480 | you need more games.

00:50:27.760 | And I think to some extent,

00:50:30.000 | if you're gonna have a world champion

00:50:34.080 | and call them the best players,

00:50:36.000 | best player, you gotta make sure that the format

00:50:38.680 | increases the chance of finding the best player.

00:50:41.920 | So I think having more games,

00:50:43.960 | and if you're gonna have a lot more games,

00:50:45.880 | then you need to decrease the time control a bit,

00:50:50.240 | which in turn, I think is also a good thing

00:50:54.120 | because in very long time controls with deep preparation,

00:50:59.120 | you can sort of mask a lot of your deficiencies

00:51:03.000 | as a chess player,

00:51:05.760 | because you have a lot of time to think and to defend

00:51:10.680 | and also, yeah, you have deep preparation.

00:51:14.440 | So I think those would be, for me to play,

00:51:17.960 | those would be the main things,

00:51:22.000 | more games and less time.

00:51:24.760 | - So you wanna see more games

00:51:26.720 | and rules that emphasize pure chess?

00:51:30.200 | - Yeah, but already less time emphasizes pure chess

00:51:35.200 | because defensive techniques are much harder

00:51:40.480 | to execute with a little time.

00:51:42.360 | - What do you think?

00:51:43.200 | Is there a sweet spot in terms of,

00:51:45.080 | are we talking about Blitz?

00:51:46.240 | Is it how many minutes?

00:51:47.080 | - I think Blitz is a bit too fast.

00:51:48.640 | To their credit, this was suggested by Fida as well.

00:51:53.960 | For a start to have two games per day,

00:51:57.280 | and let's say you have 45 minutes a game

00:52:01.280 | plus 15 or 30 seconds per move,

00:52:04.360 | that means that each sessions will probably be about,

00:52:07.480 | or a little less than two hours.

00:52:10.160 | That would be a start.

00:52:11.920 | Also what we're playing in the tournament

00:52:14.920 | that I'm playing here in Miami,

00:52:17.520 | which is four games a day with 15 minutes

00:52:22.360 | plus 10 seconds per move,

00:52:24.400 | those would be more interesting than the one there is now.

00:52:29.400 | And I understand that there are a lot of traditions.

00:52:32.760 | People don't wanna change the World Championship.

00:52:35.080 | That's all fine.

00:52:36.280 | I just think that the World Championship

00:52:40.360 | should do a better job of trying to reflect

00:52:43.240 | who's the best overall chess player.

00:52:45.040 | - So would you say like, if it's faster games,

00:52:50.200 | you'd probably be able to get a sample size

00:52:52.080 | of like over 20 games, 20, 30, 40.

00:52:55.360 | You think there's a number that's good

00:52:56.840 | over a long period of time?

00:52:58.400 | - Well, I would prefer as many as possible.

00:53:00.280 | - So like a hundred?

00:53:01.280 | - Yeah, but let's say you play 12 days, two games a day.

00:53:07.400 | You know, that's 24.

00:53:09.120 | I feel like that's already quite a bit better.

00:53:11.480 | You play like one black game, one white game each day.

00:53:15.920 | - Endurance wise, that's okay?

00:53:17.360 | - Yeah, I think that's fine.

00:53:18.200 | Like you will have free days as well.

00:53:19.680 | So I don't think that will be a problem.

00:53:22.320 | And also you have to prepare two sets of openings

00:53:26.320 | for each day, which makes it more difficult

00:53:29.120 | for the teams preparing, which I think is also good.

00:53:32.560 | - Let me ask you a fun question.

00:53:34.480 | If Hikaru and Nakamura was one of the two people,

00:53:39.480 | I guess, I apologize.

00:53:41.480 | - Yeah, he could have finished second.

00:53:43.760 | So he lost the last round of the candidates.

00:53:45.760 | - Yeah, and you, maybe you can explain to me

00:53:48.440 | internet speak, Copium is something you tweeted.

00:53:51.920 | - Yeah.

00:53:52.960 | - But if he got second, would you,

00:53:58.080 | just despite him still play the world championship?

00:54:01.160 | That's internet question.

00:54:02.720 | And when the internet asks, I must abide.

00:54:05.000 | I do abide.

00:54:06.480 | - Yeah, sure.

00:54:07.640 | Thank you, internet.

00:54:08.640 | So after the last match, I did an interview

00:54:15.080 | right after where I talked about the fact

00:54:20.160 | that I was unlikely to play the next one.

00:54:22.400 | I'd spoken privately to both family, friends,

00:54:26.720 | and of course also my chess team

00:54:29.120 | that this was likely going to be the last match.

00:54:33.880 | What happened was that right before

00:54:38.160 | the world championship match,

00:54:39.320 | there was this young player, Alvarez Afiruza.

00:54:42.280 | He had a dramatic rise.

00:54:43.560 | He rose to second in the world rankings.

00:54:46.120 | He was 18 then, he's 19 now.

00:54:48.920 | He qualified for the candidates.

00:54:50.920 | And they felt like there was like

00:54:52.720 | at least a half realistic possibility

00:54:55.360 | that he could be the challenger

00:54:59.280 | for the next world championship.

00:55:01.480 | And that sort of lit a fire under me.

00:55:03.680 | - Do you like that idea?

00:55:05.440 | - I like that a lot.

00:55:07.360 | I love the idea of playing him

00:55:09.560 | in the next world championship.

00:55:11.720 | And originally I was sure that I wanted to announce

00:55:16.600 | right after the tournament, the match,

00:55:19.000 | that this was it, I'm done.

00:55:20.680 | I'm not playing the next one.

00:55:22.560 | But this lit a fire under me.

00:55:24.120 | So that made me think, you know,

00:55:26.400 | this actually motivates me.

00:55:29.720 | And I just wanted to get it out there for several reasons.

00:55:33.120 | To create more hype about the candidates.

00:55:36.680 | To like sort of motivate myself a little bit,

00:55:40.240 | maybe motivate him.

00:55:42.320 | Also, obviously I wanted to give people a heads up

00:55:45.800 | for the candidates that you might be playing

00:55:49.560 | for more than first place.

00:55:53.160 | Like normally the candidates is first place or best.

00:55:56.280 | It's like the world championship.

00:55:57.920 | And then, so Nakamura was one of many people

00:56:02.360 | who just didn't believe me.

00:56:04.200 | Which is fair.

00:56:05.520 | 'Cause I've talked before about not necessarily wanting

00:56:10.120 | to defend again.

00:56:11.920 | But I never like talked as concretely

00:56:15.040 | or was as serious as this time.

00:56:16.840 | So he simply didn't believe me.

00:56:18.960 | And he was very vocal about that.

00:56:21.280 | And he said, nobody believed me.

00:56:22.800 | No other players, which may or may not have been true.

00:56:27.160 | And then yeah, he lost the last game and he didn't qualify.

00:56:31.720 | But to answer the question,

00:56:33.640 | no, I'd already at that point decided

00:56:36.080 | that I wouldn't play.

00:56:38.200 | I would have liked it less if he had not lost the last round.

00:56:43.200 | - But the decision was made.

00:56:45.240 | - But the decision was already made.

00:56:48.560 | - Does it break your heart a little bit

00:56:51.240 | that you're walking away from it?

00:56:54.520 | In all the ways that you mentioned that it's just not fun.

00:56:57.280 | There's a bunch of ways that it doesn't seem

00:56:59.720 | to bring out the best kind of chess.

00:57:02.040 | It doesn't bring out the best out of you

00:57:03.920 | and the particular opponents involved.

00:57:05.720 | Does it just break your heart a little bit?

00:57:07.400 | Like you're walking away from something

00:57:10.920 | or maybe the entire chess community is walking away

00:57:13.240 | from a kind of a historic event that was so important

00:57:18.120 | in the 20th century at least.

00:57:20.960 | - So I won the championship in 2013.

00:57:23.800 | I said no to the candidates in 2011.

00:57:28.480 | I didn't particularly like the format.

00:57:30.720 | I also wasn't, I was just not in the mood.

00:57:34.000 | I didn't want the pressure that was connected

00:57:39.000 | with the world championship.

00:57:40.120 | And I was perfectly content at the time

00:57:43.000 | to play the tournaments that I did play.

00:57:45.240 | Also to be ranked number one in the world,

00:57:48.840 | I was comfortable with the fact

00:57:50.240 | that I knew that I was the best

00:57:52.920 | and I didn't need a title to show others.

00:57:56.960 | And what happened later is I suddenly decided to play.

00:58:01.040 | In 2013, I liked, they changed the format.

00:58:05.200 | I liked it better.

00:58:06.560 | I just decided, you know, it could be interesting.

00:58:11.120 | Let's try and get this.

00:58:12.320 | There really wasn't more than that to it.

00:58:17.280 | It wasn't like fulfilling lifelong dream or anything.

00:58:21.800 | I just thought, you know, let's play.

00:58:25.160 | - So it's just a cool tournament, a good challenge?

00:58:27.120 | - Yeah, it's a cool tournament.

00:58:28.240 | It's a good challenge.

00:58:29.360 | You know, why not?

00:58:31.200 | It's something that could be a motivation.

00:58:35.000 | It motivated me to get in the best shape of my life

00:58:39.120 | that I had been till then.

00:58:40.480 | So it was a good thing.

00:58:42.320 | And 2013 match brought me a lot of joy as well.

00:58:46.520 | So I'm very, very happy that I did that.

00:58:49.360 | But I never had any thoughts that I'm gonna

00:58:51.560 | like keep the title for a long time.

00:58:54.240 | Immediately after the match in 2013,

00:58:57.920 | I mean, also before the match,

00:58:59.760 | I'd spoken against the fact that champion is seeded

00:59:03.480 | into the final, which I thought was unfair.

00:59:05.840 | After the match, I made a proposal

00:59:10.520 | that we have a different system

00:59:12.120 | where the champion doesn't have these privileges

00:59:14.800 | and people's reaction, both players and chess community

00:59:18.960 | was generally like, okay, we're good.

00:59:22.040 | We don't want that.

00:59:23.920 | You keep your privileges.

00:59:26.080 | I was like, okay, whatever.

00:59:27.880 | - So you wanna fight for it every time?

00:59:30.080 | - Yeah, I want that.

00:59:31.960 | - Have to ask, just in case you have an opinion,

00:59:37.280 | if you can maybe from a fantasy chess perspective,

00:59:41.000 | analyze Ding versus Nepo, who wins?

00:59:45.520 | The current, the two people that would play

00:59:48.960 | if you're not playing.

00:59:50.480 | - Generally, I would consider that Ding

00:59:52.520 | has a slightly better overall chess strength.

00:59:57.160 | - What are the strengths and weaknesses of each

00:59:59.320 | if you can kind of summarize it?

01:00:02.440 | - So Nepo, he's even better at calculating short lines

01:00:07.440 | than I am.

01:00:10.880 | But he can sometimes lack a little bit of depth.

01:00:15.440 | Like he's in short lines,

01:00:17.120 | he's an absolute calculation monster.

01:00:19.680 | He's extremely quick,

01:00:22.680 | but he can sometimes lack a bit of depth.

01:00:24.880 | Also recently, he's improved his openings quite a bit.

01:00:28.480 | So now he has a lot of good ideas

01:00:33.240 | and he's very, very solid.

01:00:36.600 | Ding is not quite as well prepared,

01:00:39.480 | but he has an excellent understanding of dynamics

01:00:44.120 | and imbalances in chess, I would say.

01:00:48.680 | - What do you mean by imbalances?

01:00:51.200 | - Imbalances like bishops against knights

01:00:54.120 | and material imbalances.

01:00:55.600 | - He can take advantage of those.

01:00:57.320 | - Yes, I would say he's very, very good at that

01:01:00.240 | and understanding the dynamic factors,

01:01:04.120 | as we call them, like material versus time, especially.

01:01:10.120 | - I think Nepo got the better of him and the candidates.

01:01:12.720 | So what's your sense why Ding has an edge

01:01:15.200 | in the championship?

01:01:16.880 | - I feel like individual past results

01:01:19.720 | hasn't necessarily been a great indicator

01:01:23.400 | of world championship results.

01:01:25.800 | I feel like overall chess strength is more important.

01:01:30.800 | I mean, to be fair,

01:01:32.360 | I only think like Ding has a very small edge.

01:01:34.320 | Like difference is not big at all,

01:01:36.520 | but our individual head-to-head record

01:01:39.800 | was probably the main reason that a lot of people thought

01:01:42.880 | Nepo had a good chance against me as well.

01:01:45.440 | It was like four to one in his favor before the match,

01:01:50.440 | but that was just another example

01:01:53.120 | of why that may not necessarily mean anything.

01:01:56.400 | Also in our case, it was a very, very low sample size,

01:01:59.920 | I think about the size of the match in total 14 games.

01:02:05.360 | And that generally doesn't mean much.

01:02:09.200 | - How close were those games, would you say,

01:02:11.120 | in your mind for the previous championship?

01:02:13.960 | So that game six was a turning point where you won.

01:02:17.400 | Was there any doubt in your mind that,

01:02:20.920 | like if you do a much larger sample size,

01:02:23.640 | you'll get the better of Nepo?

01:02:25.440 | - No, no, larger sample size is always good for me.

01:02:28.520 | So world championship, it's a great parallel to football

01:02:33.600 | because it's a low scoring game.

01:02:35.360 | And if the better player or the better team scores,

01:02:41.360 | they win most of the time.

01:02:44.200 | - Oh, that's generally for championships or in general?

01:02:47.280 | - Yeah, for championships.

01:02:48.720 | Like they generally win because the other

01:02:53.440 | slightly weaker team, they're good enough to defend,

01:02:57.160 | to make it very, very difficult for the others.

01:02:59.920 | But when they actually have to create the chances,

01:03:02.840 | then they have no chance.

01:03:04.120 | And then it very often ends with a blowout

01:03:06.680 | as it did in our match.

01:03:09.000 | If I hadn't won game six,

01:03:10.680 | it probably would have been very, very close.

01:03:13.080 | He might've edged it.

01:03:14.840 | There's obviously a bigger chance

01:03:16.240 | that I would have edged it.

01:03:18.320 | But this is just what happens a lot in chess,

01:03:21.280 | but also in football, that matches are close and then they-

01:03:26.160 | - Somebody scores.

01:03:27.000 | - Somebody scores and then things change.

01:03:29.960 | And this gives people the illusion

01:03:32.720 | that the matchup was very close.

01:03:35.120 | Which, while actually it just means

01:03:38.000 | that the nature of the game makes the matches close

01:03:42.920 | very often, but it's always much more likely

01:03:46.280 | that one of the teams is gonna,

01:03:48.080 | or one of the players is gonna break away than the others.

01:03:51.560 | And in other matches as well,

01:03:53.480 | even though a lot of people, before the match in 2016

01:03:57.680 | against Karjakin, there were people

01:04:02.600 | who thought before the match that I was massively overrated

01:04:05.720 | as a favorite and that essentially the match

01:04:10.720 | was pretty close, like whatever, 60-40,

01:04:15.760 | or some people even say like 55-45.

01:04:19.000 | And what I felt was that the match went very,

01:04:22.560 | very wrong for me and I still won.

01:04:25.640 | And some people saw that as an indication

01:04:28.200 | that the pre-match probabilities were probably a bit closer

01:04:30.880 | than people thought.

01:04:31.720 | Well, I would look at it in the way

01:04:34.760 | that everything went wrong and I still won,

01:04:37.680 | which probably means that I was a pretty big favorite

01:04:40.440 | to begin with.

01:04:41.280 | - I do have a question to you about that match,

01:04:42.760 | but first, so Sergey Karjakin was originally a qualifier

01:04:46.920 | for the candidate tournament, but was disqualified

01:04:50.200 | for breaching the FIDEA code of ethics

01:04:52.400 | after publicly expressing approval

01:04:54.160 | for the 2022 Russian invasion in Ukraine.

01:04:57.880 | You look at the Cold War and some of the US

01:05:00.400 | versus Russian games of the past,

01:05:02.480 | does politics, some of this geopolitics,

01:05:05.880 | politics ever creep its way into the game?

01:05:09.360 | Do you feel the pressure, the immensity of that,

01:05:11.560 | as it does sometimes for the Olympics,

01:05:13.600 | these big nations playing each other,

01:05:15.640 | competing against each other,

01:05:17.120 | almost like fighting out in a friendly way,

01:05:22.120 | the battles, the tensions that they have

01:05:23.880 | in the space of geopolitics?

01:05:26.080 | - I think it still does.

01:05:27.640 | So the president of the World Chess Federation,

01:05:30.920 | who was just reelected, is a Russian.

01:05:33.920 | Like, I like him personally, for sure,

01:05:36.840 | but he is quite connected to the Kremlin,

01:05:39.640 | and it's quite clear that the Kremlin considers it

01:05:44.160 | at least a semi-important goal

01:05:45.640 | to bring the chess crown home to Russia.

01:05:49.320 | So it's still definitely a factor.

01:05:52.920 | And I mean, I can answer for in the Karjakin case,

01:05:56.720 | like, I don't have a strong opinion

01:06:00.120 | on whether he should have been banned or not.

01:06:03.920 | Obviously, I don't agree with anything that he says,

01:06:08.480 | but in principle, I think that you should ban

01:06:13.480 | either no Russians or all Russians.

01:06:17.000 | I'm generally not particularly against either,

01:06:22.560 | but I don't love banning wrong opinions,

01:06:27.480 | even if they are as reprehensible as his have been.

01:06:32.480 | - Yeah, there's something about the World Chess Championships

01:06:36.440 | or the Olympics where it feels like banning

01:06:39.440 | is counterproductive to the alleviating

01:06:41.520 | some of the conflicts.

01:06:43.040 | - We don't know.

01:06:43.880 | This is the thing, though.

01:06:45.240 | We really don't know about the long-term conflicts.

01:06:48.920 | And a lot of people try to do the right thing in this sense,

01:06:53.280 | which I don't really blame at all.

01:06:54.800 | It's just that we don't know.

01:06:57.760 | And I guess sometimes there are other ways

01:07:00.880 | you want to try and help as well.

01:07:04.120 | - See, like within the competition,

01:07:05.920 | within some of those battles of US versus Russia

01:07:08.480 | or so on of the past,

01:07:10.120 | there's also between the individuals,

01:07:12.760 | maybe you'll disagree with this,

01:07:15.360 | but from a spectator perspective,

01:07:16.920 | there's still a camaraderie.

01:07:18.840 | Like at the end of the day,

01:07:20.800 | there's a thing that unites you,

01:07:22.360 | which is this like appreciation

01:07:25.320 | of the fight over the chessboard.

01:07:27.320 | Even if you hate each other in a moment.

01:07:31.280 | - For sure.

01:07:32.120 | I think for every match that's been,

01:07:35.840 | you would briefly discuss the game with your opponent

01:07:38.640 | after the game, no matter how much you hate each other.

01:07:41.800 | And I think that's lovely.

01:07:43.920 | And Kasparov, I mean, he was quoted,

01:07:46.800 | like when somebody in his team asked him,

01:07:48.640 | like, why are you talking to Karpov after the game?

01:07:52.240 | Like, you hate that guy.

01:07:54.280 | And he's like, yeah, sure.

01:07:55.280 | But he's the only one who understands me.

01:07:57.560 | - Yeah, the only one who understands.

01:07:59.280 | - So that's, no, I think that's really lovely.

01:08:01.640 | And I would love to see that in other areas as well,

01:08:06.200 | that you can, regardless of what happens,

01:08:09.280 | you can have a good chat about the game.

01:08:12.040 | You can just talk about the ideas

01:08:15.040 | with people who understand what you understand.

01:08:18.760 | - So if you're not playing the world championships,

01:08:21.680 | there's a lot of people who are saying

01:08:24.360 | that perhaps the world championships don't matter anymore.

01:08:27.680 | Do you think there's some truth to that?

01:08:30.120 | - I said that back a long time ago as well,

01:08:32.520 | that for me, I don't know if it never happened.

01:08:37.520 | So I don't know what would have happened,

01:08:39.360 | but I was thinking like the moment that I realized

01:08:42.960 | that I'm not the best player in the world,

01:08:44.480 | like I felt like morally I have to renounce

01:08:47.400 | the world championship title, you know?

01:08:49.680 | Because it doesn't mean anything

01:08:51.440 | as long as you're not the best player.

01:08:53.560 | - So the ratings really tell a bigger, a clearer story.

01:08:58.560 | - I think so, at least over time.

01:09:01.360 | Like I'm a lot more proud of my streak

01:09:05.080 | of being rated number one in the world,

01:09:06.800 | which is now since I think the summer of 2011.

01:09:12.640 | I'm a lot more proud of that than the world championships.

01:09:17.640 | - How much anxiety or even fear do you have

01:09:21.520 | before making a difficult decision on the chess board?

01:09:24.440 | So when it's a high stakes game, how nervous do you get?

01:09:28.840 | How much anxiety do you have in all that calculations?

01:09:31.000 | You're sitting there for 10, 15 minutes

01:09:33.640 | 'cause you're in a fog.

01:09:35.080 | There's always a possibility of a blunder, of a mistake.

01:09:38.080 | Are you anxious about it?

01:09:39.280 | Are you afraid of it?

01:09:40.880 | - Really depends.

01:09:42.860 | I have been at times.

01:09:45.860 | I think the most nervous I've ever been was game 10

01:09:50.500 | of the world championships in 2018.

01:09:54.460 | I know that was just a thrilling game.

01:09:58.460 | I was black.

01:10:00.020 | I basically abandoned the queen side at some point

01:10:02.820 | to attack him on the king side.

01:10:04.460 | And I knew that my attack,

01:10:07.940 | if it doesn't work, I'm gonna lose.

01:10:10.140 | But I had so much adrenaline.

01:10:12.100 | So that was fine.

01:10:13.380 | I thought I was gonna win.

01:10:14.940 | Then at some point I realized that it's not so clear.

01:10:18.140 | And my time was ticking and I was just getting so nervous.

01:10:21.980 | I still remember what happened.

01:10:25.940 | We played this time trouble phase

01:10:28.140 | where he had very little time, but I had even less.

01:10:31.500 | And I just remember, I cannot remember much of it,

01:10:35.100 | just that when it was over, I was just so relieved

01:10:38.380 | because then it was clear that the position

01:10:40.140 | was probably gonna be routed in a draw.

01:10:43.500 | Otherwise, I'm often nervous before games,

01:10:47.340 | but when I get there, it's all business.

01:10:50.700 | And especially when I'm playing well,

01:10:53.780 | I'm never afraid of losing when I play

01:10:57.900 | because I trust my instincts.

01:11:01.100 | I trust my skills.

01:11:03.500 | - How much psychological intimidation is there

01:11:06.100 | from you to the other person,

01:11:07.500 | from the other person to you?

01:11:08.980 | - I think people would play a lot better

01:11:11.860 | if they played against an anonymous me.

01:11:15.060 | I would love to-

01:11:16.420 | - Or people are scared of you.

01:11:17.980 | - I would love to have a tournament online

01:11:21.380 | where let's say you play 10 of the best players in the world

01:11:25.460 | and for each round, you don't know who you're playing.

01:11:28.700 | - That's an interesting question.

01:11:31.860 | There's these videos where people eat McDonald's

01:11:34.980 | or Burger King or Diet Coke versus Diet Pepsi.

01:11:38.580 | Would people be able to tell they're playing you

01:11:41.140 | from the style of play, do you think?

01:11:45.060 | Or from the strength of play?

01:11:46.620 | - If there was a decent sample size, sure.

01:11:51.260 | - And what about you?

01:11:52.100 | Would you be able to tell others?

01:11:54.900 | - In just one game?

01:11:58.140 | Very unlikely.

01:11:59.460 | - What sample size would you need to tell accurately?

01:12:02.220 | I feel like it's a science.

01:12:03.620 | - Yeah, I think 20 games would help a lot.

01:12:06.700 | - Per person?

01:12:07.540 | - Yeah.

01:12:09.140 | But I know that they've already developed AI bots

01:12:13.580 | that are pretty good at recognizing somebody's style.

01:12:16.980 | - Okay.

01:12:17.820 | - Which is quite fascinating.

01:12:20.300 | - And it'd be fascinating if those bots

01:12:23.700 | were able to summarize the style somehow.

01:12:25.980 | Maybe great attacking chess,

01:12:28.420 | like some of the same characteristics you've been describing,

01:12:30.580 | like great at short line calculations,

01:12:33.580 | all that kind of stuff.

01:12:34.780 | Or just talk shit.

01:12:36.860 | - No, but really all the best chess players,

01:12:40.580 | there are basically just two camps.

01:12:42.180 | People who are good at longer lines or shorter lines,

01:12:46.260 | it's the hare and the tortoise, basically.

01:12:49.260 | And sometimes, I feel like I'm the closest you can get

01:12:54.260 | to a hybrid of those.

01:12:58.700 | - Because you're good in every position,

01:13:02.140 | so the middle game and the end game.

01:13:03.620 | - Yeah, and also I can think to some extent

01:13:06.580 | both rapidly and deeply,

01:13:08.980 | which a lot of people, they can't do both.

01:13:11.900 | But I mean, to answer your question from before,

01:13:14.260 | I think, yeah, I sometimes can get

01:13:17.060 | a little bit intimidated by my opponent,

01:13:18.900 | but it's mostly if there's something unknown.

01:13:23.500 | It's mostly if it's something that I don't understand fully.

01:13:28.340 | And I do think, especially when I'm playing well,

01:13:31.180 | people, they just play more timidly against me

01:13:34.620 | than they do against each other,

01:13:36.020 | sometimes without even realizing it.

01:13:39.580 | And I certainly use that to my advantage.

01:13:42.860 | If I sense that my opponent is apprehensive,

01:13:46.300 | if I sense that they're not gonna necessarily

01:13:49.700 | take all their chances,

01:13:51.340 | it just means that I can take more risk.

01:13:53.380 | And I always try and find that balance.

01:13:58.380 | - To shake 'em up a little bit.

01:13:59.700 | - Yeah.

01:14:00.540 | - What's been the toughest loss of your career

01:14:03.220 | that you remember?

01:14:04.340 | Would that be the World Championship match?

01:14:08.220 | - Oh yeah, for sure.

01:14:09.580 | - Can you take--

01:14:10.420 | - Game eight in 2016.

01:14:12.380 | - And who was it against?

01:14:13.420 | - Against Kariakin in New York.

01:14:16.500 | - Can you take it through the story of that game?

01:14:19.340 | Where were you before that game

01:14:22.300 | in terms of game one through seven?

01:14:24.460 | - Yeah, so game one and two, not much happened.

01:14:29.140 | Game three and four, I was winning in both of them.

01:14:32.740 | And normally I should definitely have converted both.

01:14:37.740 | I couldn't, partly due to good defense on his part,

01:14:42.900 | but mostly because I just, I messed up.

01:14:48.460 | And then after that, games five, six and seven,

01:14:53.460 | not much happened.

01:14:56.380 | I was getting impatient at that point.

01:15:00.260 | So for game eight, I was probably ready

01:15:04.540 | to take a little bit more risks than I had before,

01:15:08.060 | which I guess was insane,

01:15:11.540 | because I knew that he wouldn't beat me

01:15:14.660 | unless I beat myself.

01:15:18.020 | Like he wasn't strong enough to outplay me.

01:15:20.500 | - And that was leading to impatience somehow,

01:15:22.580 | an impatience--

01:15:23.740 | - No, because I knew that I was better.

01:15:26.140 | I knew that I was better.

01:15:27.180 | I knew that I just needed to win one game

01:15:29.060 | and then the match is over.

01:15:30.540 | That's what happened in 2021 as well.

01:15:32.900 | Like when I won the first game against Netball,

01:15:34.860 | I knew that the match was over.

01:15:36.020 | Unless I like fuck up royally,

01:15:38.340 | then he's not gonna be able to beat me.

01:15:42.420 | So what happened was that I played

01:15:45.100 | a kind of innocuous opening as Wyatt,

01:15:48.340 | just trying to get a game,

01:15:49.620 | trying to get him out of book as soon as possible.

01:15:52.100 | Then--

01:15:52.940 | - Can you elaborate innocuous, get him out of the book?

01:15:55.860 | - No, but basically I set up pretty defensively as Wyatt.

01:16:00.220 | I wasn't really crossing into his half at the start at all.

01:16:04.540 | I was just, I played more like a system

01:16:07.380 | more than like a concrete opening.

01:16:10.100 | It was like, I'm gonna set up my pieces this way.

01:16:12.700 | You can set them up however you want.

01:16:15.060 | And then later we're sort of, the armies are gonna meet.

01:16:18.460 | I'm not gonna try and bother you at the start.

01:16:20.780 | - And that means you're gonna have

01:16:22.740 | with as many pieces as possible

01:16:24.220 | kind of pure chess in the middle game

01:16:26.380 | without any of the lines,

01:16:29.180 | the extended lines in the opening.

01:16:31.300 | - Exactly.

01:16:32.380 | And so there was at some point a couple of exchanges,

01:16:34.940 | then some maneuvering, flip a little bit better.

01:16:38.380 | Then he was sort of equalizing

01:16:40.260 | and then I started to take too many risks

01:16:42.540 | and I was still sort of fine,

01:16:44.700 | but then at some point I realized

01:16:48.700 | that I'd gone a bit too far

01:16:50.900 | and I had to be really careful.

01:16:52.500 | - Then I just froze.

01:16:54.220 | - I just completely froze.

01:16:56.380 | - Mentally?

01:16:58.180 | - Yeah, mentally.

01:16:59.020 | - What happened?

01:16:59.980 | - I realized that, I mean, all the thoughts of,

01:17:02.900 | I might lose this.

01:17:05.540 | What have I done?

01:17:07.380 | Why did I take so many risks?

01:17:08.860 | I knew that I could have drawn at any moment.

01:17:11.060 | Just be patient.

01:17:12.580 | Don't give him these opportunities.

01:17:15.620 | - What triggered that face transition in your mind?

01:17:18.900 | - No, it was just--

01:17:19.740 | - The one thing or--

01:17:20.580 | - No, it was just a position on the board,

01:17:22.460 | like realizing there was one particular move he played

01:17:25.220 | that I missed and then I realized

01:17:29.020 | this could potentially not go my way.

01:17:32.380 | So then I made another couple of mistakes

01:17:35.420 | and he, to his credit,

01:17:37.620 | once he realized he had the chance,

01:17:39.580 | he was like, he knew that this was his one chance.

01:17:43.180 | He had to take it.

01:17:44.980 | And so he did.

01:17:46.700 | And yeah, that's the worst I've ever felt

01:17:51.260 | after a chess game.

01:17:53.980 | I realized that I'm probably gonna lose my title

01:17:57.620 | against somebody who's not even close to my level.

01:18:00.820 | And I've done it because of my own stupidity, most of all.

01:18:08.020 | And that was really, really...

01:18:12.700 | At the time, I was all in my own head.

01:18:16.140 | That was hard to deal with.

01:18:18.460 | And I felt like I didn't really recover too much

01:18:22.380 | for the next game.

01:18:24.420 | So what I did, there was a free day after the eighth game.

01:18:27.140 | So I did something that I never did

01:18:30.060 | at any other world championship.

01:18:31.620 | After game eight, I just...

01:18:34.740 | I got drunk with my team.

01:18:37.980 | - Mm-hmm.

01:18:38.820 | - And-- - That's not

01:18:39.660 | a standard procedure?

01:18:40.700 | - No, no.

01:18:41.900 | That's the only time that's happened

01:18:43.820 | in a world championship during the match.

01:18:46.340 | So yeah, I just tried to forget.

01:18:49.980 | But still, before game nine,

01:18:52.180 | game nine, I was a little bit more relaxed,

01:18:54.380 | but I was still a bit nervous.

01:18:56.620 | Then game nine, I was almost lost as well.

01:18:59.700 | Then only game 10.

01:19:02.020 | Game 10, I was still, I wasn't in a great mood.

01:19:04.460 | I was really, really tense.

01:19:07.220 | The opening was good.

01:19:09.060 | I had some advantage.

01:19:10.740 | I was getting optimistic.

01:19:11.940 | Then I made one mistake.

01:19:13.860 | He could have forced a draw.

01:19:15.300 | And then all the negativity came back.

01:19:18.060 | I was thinking during the game,

01:19:20.420 | how am I gonna play for a win with Black in the next game?

01:19:23.900 | What am I doing?

01:19:26.420 | And then, eventually, it ended well.

01:19:29.740 | I didn't find the right line.

01:19:32.900 | I ground him down.

01:19:33.900 | Actually, I played, at some point,

01:19:35.860 | pretty well in the end game.

01:19:37.300 | And after that game, there was such a weight lifted.

01:19:43.220 | After that, there was no thought

01:19:47.700 | of losing the match whatsoever.

01:19:49.340 | I knew that, okay, I'd basically gotten away with,

01:19:53.980 | not with murder, but gotten away with something.

01:19:59.180 | - What can you say about after game eight?

01:20:02.940 | Where are the places you've gone in your mind?

01:20:05.740 | Do you go to some dark places?

01:20:07.460 | We're talking about depression.

01:20:09.140 | Do you think about quitting at that point?

01:20:11.260 | - No, I think about quitting

01:20:14.700 | every time I lose a classical game.

01:20:17.100 | Or at least I used to.

01:20:19.260 | Especially if it's in a stupid way.

01:20:21.340 | I'm thinking, okay, if I'm gonna play like this,

01:20:25.180 | if I'm gonna do things that I know are wrong,

01:20:27.900 | then I might as well quit.

01:20:30.140 | No, that's happened a bunch of times.

01:20:34.060 | And I've definitely gotten a bit more carefree

01:20:37.420 | about losing these days,

01:20:38.860 | which is not necessarily a good thing.

01:20:41.380 | My hatred of losing led to me not losing a lot.

01:20:46.380 | And it also lit the fire under me

01:20:49.380 | that I think my performance after losses

01:20:52.540 | in classical chess over the last 10 years

01:20:56.020 | is over 2,900.

01:20:58.460 | I really play well after a loss,

01:21:01.420 | even though it's really, really unpleasant.

01:21:04.580 | So apparently, I don't think the way that I dealt with them

01:21:08.860 | is particularly healthy, but it's worked.

01:21:11.620 | - It's worked so far.

01:21:12.820 | But then you've discovered now a love for winning

01:21:15.780 | to where ultimately, longevity-wise, creates more fun.

01:21:20.420 | - Yeah, for sure.

01:21:21.260 | - What's the perfect day in the life of Magnus Carlsen

01:21:26.220 | on a day of a big chess match?

01:21:28.700 | It doesn't have to be World Championship,

01:21:30.380 | but if it's a chess match you care about,

01:21:33.780 | what time do you wake up?

01:21:35.900 | What do you eat?

01:21:37.300 | - Oh, it depends on when the game is.

01:21:38.980 | But let's say the game is at three.

01:21:42.660 | I'll probably wake up pretty late at about 11.

01:21:47.660 | Then I'll go for a walk,

01:21:54.500 | might listen to some podcasts.

01:21:57.620 | Maybe I'll spend a little bit of time

01:22:00.180 | looking at some NBA game from last night or whatever.

01:22:04.180 | - So not chess-related stuff?

01:22:05.500 | - No, no, no, no.

01:22:06.900 | Then I'll get back, I'll have a big lunch,

01:22:11.460 | usually a big omelet with a bunch of salad and stuff.

01:22:15.420 | Then go to the game, win a very nice, clean game.

01:22:20.420 | - This is a perfect day.

01:22:22.220 | - Just go back after, relax.

01:22:24.540 | The things that make me the happiest at tournaments

01:22:28.780 | is just having a good routine and feeling well.

01:22:33.580 | I don't like it when too much is happening around me.

01:22:36.860 | So the tournament that I came from now

01:22:39.820 | was the Chess Olympiad, which is the team event.

01:22:44.020 | So we were team Norway.

01:22:46.300 | We did horribly.

01:22:47.620 | I did okay, but the team in general did horribly.

01:22:52.220 | - Who won that, Italy?

01:22:54.340 | - No, no, Italy beat us, but Uzbekistan won in the end.

01:22:58.340 | They were this amazing team of young players.

01:23:01.020 | It was really impressive.

01:23:02.900 | But the thing is, we had a good camaraderie in the team.

01:23:05.540 | We had our meals together.

01:23:07.300 | We played a bit of football, went swimming.

01:23:10.180 | And I couldn't understand why things went wrong.

01:23:13.300 | And I still don't understand.

01:23:14.380 | But the thing is, for me, it was all very nice.

01:23:17.180 | But now I'm so happy to be on my own at a tournament

01:23:19.820 | just to have my own routines, not see too many people.

01:23:24.100 | Otherwise, just have a very small team of people that I see.

01:23:28.380 | - You are a kind of celebrity now.

01:23:30.940 | So people within the chess tournament and outside

01:23:35.580 | recognize you, want to socialize,

01:23:37.620 | want to tell you about how much you mean to them,

01:23:39.540 | how much you inspire them, all that kind of stuff.

01:23:41.780 | Does that get in the way for you

01:23:43.900 | when you're trying to really focus on the match?

01:23:46.820 | Are you able to block that?

01:23:49.420 | Are you able to enjoy those little interactions

01:23:51.900 | and still keep your focus?

01:23:53.380 | - Yeah, most of the time that's fine

01:23:56.060 | as long as it's not too much.

01:23:57.620 | But I have to admit, when I'm at home in Norway,

01:24:01.020 | I rarely go out without big headphones and something.

01:24:06.940 | - Oh, like a disguise?

01:24:11.900 | - No, not a disguise, just to block out the world.

01:24:15.380 | Otherwise...

01:24:16.500 | - Don't make eye contact.

01:24:18.660 | - Yeah, no, so the thing is, people in general are nice.

01:24:23.300 | I mean, people, they wish me well.

01:24:25.900 | And they don't bother me.

01:24:29.380 | Also, when I have the headphones on,

01:24:31.620 | I don't notice as much people turning around and all of that

01:24:35.380 | so I can be more in my own world.

01:24:38.660 | So I like that.

01:24:40.780 | - Yeah, what about in this perfect day after the game,

01:24:45.740 | do you try to analyze what happened?

01:24:47.460 | Do you try to think through systematically

01:24:49.740 | or do you just kind of loosely think about like...

01:24:52.140 | - No, I just loosely think about it.

01:24:53.620 | I've never been very structured in that sense.

01:24:56.820 | I know that it was always recommended

01:25:00.180 | that you analyze your own games,

01:25:02.980 | but I generally felt that I mostly had a good idea

01:25:06.860 | about that.

01:25:07.700 | Like nowadays, I will loosely see what the engine says

01:25:12.700 | at a certain point if I'm curious about that.

01:25:15.340 | Otherwise, I usually move on to the next.

01:25:18.580 | - What about diet?

01:25:21.260 | You said omelet and salad and so on.

01:25:23.100 | I heard in your conversation with the other Magnus,

01:25:26.940 | Magnus number two, you had like this bet about meat.

01:25:31.980 | One of you are gonna go vegan if you lose.

01:25:33.980 | I forget which bet.

01:25:34.820 | - Vegetarian though.

01:25:36.140 | - Vegetarian, sorry.

01:25:37.500 | And you both have an admiration for meat.

01:25:40.260 | Is there some aspect about optimal performance

01:25:45.700 | that you look for in food?

01:25:46.860 | Like maybe eating only like once or twice a day

01:25:50.780 | or a particular kind of food?

01:25:52.380 | Like meat heavy diet.

01:25:54.060 | Is there anything like that?

01:25:55.140 | Or you just try to have fun with the food?

01:25:57.460 | - I think whenever I'm at tournaments,

01:26:01.060 | like it's very natural to eat,

01:26:03.740 | at least for me to eat only twice a day.

01:26:06.140 | So usually I do that when I'm at home as well.

01:26:08.820 | - So you do eat before the tournament though?

01:26:10.980 | You don't play fasted?

01:26:12.900 | - No, no, no.

01:26:13.740 | But I try not to eat too heavy before the game

01:26:18.820 | or in general to avoid sugary stuff,

01:26:22.500 | to have a pretty stable blood sugar level.

01:26:26.740 | 'Cause that's the easiest way to make mistake

01:26:29.060 | that your energy levels just suddenly drop.

01:26:33.540 | And they don't necessarily need to be too high

01:26:37.060 | as long as they're pretty stable, yeah.

01:26:39.300 | - Have you ever tried playing fasted?

01:26:41.340 | Like intermittent fasting?

01:26:44.580 | So playing without having eaten.

01:26:46.940 | - I mean, the reason I ask,

01:26:48.340 | especially when you do a low carb diet,

01:26:52.180 | when I've done a person on a low carb diet,

01:26:54.420 | I'm able to fast for a long time,

01:26:55.900 | like eat once a day, maybe twice a day.

01:26:58.540 | But the mind is most focused

01:27:00.660 | on like really difficult thinking tasks when it's fasted.

01:27:05.660 | It's an interesting,

01:27:06.720 | and a lot of people kind of talk about that.

01:27:09.260 | You're able to kind of like zoom in.

01:27:11.460 | And if you're doing a low carb diet,

01:27:13.140 | you don't have the energy stable.

01:27:15.380 | - No, that is true.

01:27:16.940 | Maybe that will be interesting to try.

01:27:18.780 | So what's happened for me is I played a few tournaments

01:27:22.260 | where I've had food poisoning.

01:27:24.460 | And then that generally means

01:27:26.260 | that you're both sleep deprived and you have no energy.

01:27:31.020 | And what I've found is that it makes me very calm,

01:27:36.020 | of course, because I don't have the energy.

01:27:40.580 | And it makes me super creative.

01:27:42.820 | - Interesting.

01:27:43.660 | - I think sleep deprivation, I think in general,

01:27:45.500 | makes you creative.

01:27:47.140 | Just the first thing that goes away

01:27:48.780 | is the ability to do the simple things.

01:27:51.820 | That's what it affects you the most.

01:27:54.740 | Like you cannot be precise.

01:27:56.580 | So that's the only thing I'm worried about.

01:27:58.620 | Like if I'm fasted, that I won't be...

01:28:02.020 | - Precise when I play.

01:28:06.300 | But you might be more creative.

01:28:08.340 | It's an interesting-

01:28:09.180 | - Fasted, yeah, potentially.

01:28:12.020 | - What about you have been known to,

01:28:14.020 | on a rare occasion, play drunk?

01:28:16.620 | Is there a mathematical formula for,

01:28:19.420 | sort of on the X-axis, how many drinks you had,

01:28:22.260 | and on the Y-axis, your performance/creativity?

01:28:26.820 | Is there like an optimal for...

01:28:28.420 | Like would you suggest for the FIDIA World Championship

01:28:31.820 | that people would be required to drink?

01:28:34.140 | Would that change things in interesting ways?

01:28:36.460 | - Yeah, not at all.

01:28:38.260 | Maybe for Rapid, but for Blitz,

01:28:40.900 | think if you're playing Blitz,

01:28:41.900 | you're mostly playing on short calculation and intuition.

01:28:46.900 | And I think those are probably enhanced

01:28:50.500 | if you've had a little bit to drink.

01:28:54.220 | - Can you explain the physiology of why it's enhanced?

01:28:59.220 | - You're just, you're thinking less.

01:29:03.260 | You're more confident.

01:29:04.860 | - Oh yeah, it's confidence.

01:29:05.700 | - I think it's just confidence.

01:29:07.860 | I think also like a lot of people

01:29:10.700 | feel like they're better at speaking languages,

01:29:14.700 | for instance, if they've drunk a little bit.

01:29:17.020 | It's just like removing these barriers.

01:29:19.980 | I think that it's a little bit of the same in chess.

01:29:24.980 | In 2012, I played the World Blitz Championship,

01:29:27.580 | and then I was doing horribly for a long time.

01:29:32.580 | I also had food poisoning there.

01:29:34.900 | I couldn't play at all for three days.

01:29:37.540 | So before the last break,

01:29:39.140 | I was in the middle of the pack,

01:29:42.300 | in, I don't know, 20th place or something.

01:29:46.940 | And so I decided as the last gasp,

01:29:51.140 | I'm gonna go to the mini bar and just have a few drinks.

01:29:54.860 | And what happened is that I came back

01:29:58.060 | and I was suddenly relaxed.

01:30:00.180 | And I was playing fast and I was playing confident.

01:30:03.500 | And I thought I was playing so well.

01:30:05.620 | I wasn't playing nearly as well as I thought,

01:30:08.580 | but it still helped me.

01:30:10.060 | Like I won my remaining eight games.

01:30:11.860 | And if there had been one more round,

01:30:14.580 | I probably would have won the whole thing.

01:30:16.020 | But finally I was second.

01:30:18.180 | So generally I wouldn't recommend that,

01:30:20.980 | but maybe as a last resort sometimes,

01:30:23.140 | like if you feel that you have the ability,

01:30:25.900 | like obviously none of this is remotely relevant

01:30:29.460 | if you don't feel like you have the ability to begin with.

01:30:31.820 | But if you feel like you have the ability,

01:30:34.060 | there are just factors that make it impossible

01:30:39.060 | for you to show it.

01:30:42.020 | Like numbing your mind a bit can probably be a good thing.

01:30:45.180 | - Yeah, well, it's interesting, especially during training,

01:30:47.900 | you have all kinds of sports that have interacted

01:30:51.020 | with a lot of athletes and grappling sports.

01:30:54.660 | It's different when you train under extreme exhaustion.

01:30:57.060 | For example, you start becoming,

01:30:59.340 | you start to discover interesting things.

01:31:01.500 | You start being more creative.

01:31:02.900 | A lot of people, at least in Brazilian jiu-jitsu,

01:31:07.420 | they'll smoke weed.

01:31:09.020 | It creates this kind of anxiety and relaxation

01:31:12.580 | that kind of enables that creative aspect.

01:31:16.060 | It's interesting for training.

01:31:17.460 | Of course, you can't rely on any one of those things too much

01:31:20.420 | but it's cool to throw in like a few drinks

01:31:22.540 | every once in a while to, yeah,

01:31:25.100 | one, first of all, to relax and have fun,

01:31:28.340 | and two, to kind of try things differently,

01:31:30.580 | to unlock a different part of your brain.

01:31:32.500 | - Yeah, for sure.

01:31:34.060 | - What about supplements?

01:31:35.860 | Do you, you're a coffee guy?

01:31:38.420 | - Oh, no.

01:31:39.260 | I quite like the taste of coffee.

01:31:42.580 | But the thing is, I've never had a job.

01:31:46.580 | So I've never needed to wake up early.

01:31:50.700 | So my thought is basically that if I'm tired, I'm tired.

01:31:55.700 | That's fine.

01:31:56.940 | Then I'll, you know, then I'll work it out.

01:32:01.540 | So I don't want to ever make my brain get used to coffee.

01:32:06.540 | Like if you see me drinking coffee,

01:32:10.660 | that probably means that I'm massively,

01:32:15.660 | massively hungover and I don't,

01:32:19.060 | I just want to try anything to make my brain work.

01:32:24.060 | - Yeah, that's interesting.

01:32:25.260 | But for a lot of people, like you said, taste of coffee,

01:32:27.260 | for a lot of people, coffee is part of a certain

01:32:30.140 | kind of ritual.

01:32:31.220 | - Yeah, for sure.

01:32:32.060 | - A joy, you know, so.

01:32:33.700 | - No, I know that I would enjoy it a lot.

01:32:36.300 | - Yeah.

01:32:37.140 | - Though there's no question about that.

01:32:37.980 | - Just you don't want to rely on it.

01:32:39.020 | Yeah.

01:32:39.860 | (laughing)

01:32:41.100 | - I also like the taste, so there's no problem there.

01:32:44.220 | - What about exercise?

01:32:47.660 | So how does that, what, like, what, you know,

01:32:51.860 | a lot of people talk about the extreme stress

01:32:54.860 | that chest puts in your body, physically and mentally.

01:33:00.380 | How do you prepare for that to be physically and mentally?

01:33:02.900 | Is it just through playing chess or do you do cardio

01:33:05.180 | and any of that kind of stuff?

01:33:07.260 | - This is kind of a bit up and down.

01:33:08.980 | Like, as I said, in 2013, I was in great shape.

01:33:13.980 | Like, I mean, generally I was exercising,

01:33:18.860 | doing sports every day, either playing football

01:33:22.420 | or tennis or even other sports.

01:33:26.860 | Otherwise, if I couldn't do that,

01:33:28.380 | I would try and take my bike for a ride.

01:33:33.380 | I had a few training camps and I played tennis

01:33:36.700 | against one of my seconds.

01:33:38.700 | Like, he's not a super fit guy,

01:33:42.020 | but he's always been very good at tennis.

01:33:43.740 | And I never like played in any organized way.

01:33:47.380 | And that was like, that was the perfect exercise

01:33:50.300 | because I was running around enough

01:33:54.420 | to make the games pretty competitive.

01:33:58.620 | And it meant that he had to run a bit less as well.

01:34:01.900 | But he was just, he said like,

01:34:03.900 | he was shocked that if we played like for two hours,

01:34:10.500 | I wouldn't flinch at all.

01:34:13.540 | - Interesting.

01:34:14.380 | So like a combination of fun

01:34:15.540 | and the differential between skill

01:34:20.340 | result in good cardio.

01:34:21.780 | - Yeah, but it's just that,

01:34:23.460 | so in those days I was pretty fit in that sense.

01:34:29.220 | I've always liked doing sports, but at times,

01:34:31.820 | I think in winter, especially,

01:34:34.980 | like I never had like a schedule.

01:34:37.780 | So at times I let myself go a little bit

01:34:41.100 | and I've always kind of done it more for fun

01:34:45.660 | than like for a concrete benefit.

01:34:48.540 | But now I'm at least after the pandemic,

01:34:51.940 | I was not in great shape.

01:34:52.980 | So now I'm trying to get back,

01:34:55.300 | get better habits and so on.

01:35:00.140 | But I feel like I've always been the poster boy

01:35:05.140 | for making being fit a big thing in chess.

01:35:11.100 | And I always felt that it was not really deserved

01:35:14.820 | because I never liked doing weights much at all.

01:35:18.380 | I run a bit at times, but I never liked it too much.

01:35:23.940 | - You just love playing sports.

01:35:24.780 | - I just love playing sports.

01:35:26.540 | So I think people confuse that

01:35:28.660 | because I'm not like massively athletic,

01:35:31.220 | but I am decent at sports

01:35:35.500 | and that sort of helped build that perception,

01:35:39.420 | even though others who are top level chess players,

01:35:43.660 | they're more fit like Karvana, for instance,

01:35:46.500 | he's really, really, his body is really, really strong.

01:35:51.500 | It's just that he doesn't-

01:35:52.340 | - He like goes to the gym and-

01:35:53.820 | - Yeah, he doesn't play sports.

01:35:55.420 | That's the difference.

01:35:57.460 | - And the thing about sports is also is just,

01:35:59.700 | it's an escape.

01:36:02.420 | It helps you forget for a brief moment

01:36:05.420 | about like the obsessions,

01:36:07.140 | the pursuits of the main thing, which is chess.

01:36:10.100 | - Yeah, for sure.

01:36:12.380 | And I think it also helps your main pursuit

01:36:16.420 | to feel that you're even if not mastering,

01:36:20.180 | but like doing well in something else.

01:36:24.220 | Like I found that if I just juggle a ball,

01:36:28.460 | that makes me feel better before a game.

01:36:30.460 | - So a skilled activity-

01:36:34.700 | - Juggle a football, yeah.

01:36:35.740 | - Yeah, skilled activity that you can improve on over time.

01:36:39.900 | It's like flexes the same kind of muscle,

01:36:42.340 | but another thing that you're much worse at.

01:36:44.980 | It focuses you, relaxes you.

01:36:46.740 | That's really interesting.

01:36:47.900 | What's the perfect day in the life of Magnus Carlsen

01:36:52.180 | when he's training?

01:36:53.900 | So like what's a good training regimen

01:36:55.980 | in terms of daily kind of training

01:36:59.500 | that you have to put in across many days, months, and years

01:37:04.020 | to just keep yourself sharp in terms of chess?

01:37:07.100 | - I would say when I'm at home,

01:37:08.380 | I do very, very little deliberate practice.

01:37:12.220 | I've never been that guy at all.

01:37:14.020 | Like I could never force myself to just sit down and work.

01:37:18.860 | - So deliberate practice, just to maybe you can educate me,

01:37:22.420 | for some grandmasters, what would that look like?

01:37:25.540 | Just doing puzzles kind of thing?

01:37:27.660 | - Yeah, doing puzzles and opening analysis.

01:37:30.580 | That would be the main things.

01:37:32.140 | - Studying games?

01:37:34.700 | - Just studying games, yeah, a little bit.

01:37:38.820 | But I feel like that's something that I do,

01:37:42.060 | but it's not deliberate.

01:37:44.340 | It's like reading an article or reading a book.

01:37:48.100 | - Got it.

01:37:48.940 | - Like I love chess books.

01:37:49.780 | I'll read just anything and I'll find something interesting.

01:37:54.500 | - So chess books that are like on openings

01:37:57.180 | and stuff like that,

01:37:58.020 | or chess books that go over different games?

01:38:00.500 | - Yeah, books on...

01:38:03.100 | So there are three main categories.

01:38:05.540 | There are books on openings and there are books on strategy

01:38:08.180 | and there are books on chess history.

01:38:09.500 | And I find all of them very, very interesting.

01:38:12.740 | - Like what fraction of the day would you say

01:38:14.460 | you have a chess board floating somewhere in your head?

01:38:18.300 | Meaning like you're thinking about it.

01:38:21.380 | - Probably be a better question to ask how many hours a day

01:38:24.700 | I don't have a chess board floating in my head.

01:38:27.140 | (laughing)

01:38:28.660 | - I mean, it could be just floating there

01:38:30.140 | and nothing's happening, but like...

01:38:32.540 | - I often do it parallel to some other activity though.

01:38:35.860 | - And what does that look like?

01:38:37.100 | Like, are you daydreaming like different...

01:38:39.900 | Is it actual positions you're just fucking around with,

01:38:42.260 | like fumbling with different pieces in your head?

01:38:45.540 | - Often I've looked at a random game on my phone,

01:38:49.500 | for instance, or in a book,

01:38:51.260 | and then my brain just keeps going at the same position,

01:38:54.740 | analyzing it.

01:38:55.660 | And often it goes all the way, you know, to the end game.

01:38:58.540 | - And those are actual games

01:38:59.940 | or you conjure up like fake games?

01:39:02.300 | - No, they were often based on real games.

01:39:04.740 | And then I'm thinking like,

01:39:06.740 | oh, but it wouldn't be more interesting

01:39:08.500 | if the pieces were a little bit different.

01:39:10.620 | And then often I play it out from there.

01:39:12.940 | - So you don't have a...

01:39:14.900 | Like you don't sit behind a computer or a chess board

01:39:18.860 | and you lay out the pieces and then you're...

01:39:21.700 | - I'm not at all a poster boy for deliberate practice.

01:39:24.980 | I could never work that way.

01:39:27.660 | My first coach, he gave me some...

01:39:32.500 | Exercises to do at home sometimes,

01:39:34.900 | but he realized at some point that wasn't gonna work.

01:39:39.380 | - Yeah.

01:39:40.420 | - Because I wouldn't do it really or enjoy it.

01:39:44.220 | So what he would do instead is that at the school

01:39:48.660 | where I had the trainings with him,

01:39:50.140 | there was this massive chess library.

01:39:54.220 | So he was just like, yeah, pick out books.

01:39:56.820 | You can have anything you want.

01:40:00.380 | Just pick out books you like

01:40:01.660 | and then you give back the next time.

01:40:03.380 | So that's what I did instead.

01:40:05.260 | Yeah, I just absolutely rated.

01:40:07.020 | And then my next tournament,

01:40:09.740 | I will try out one of the openings from that book

01:40:12.540 | if it was an opening book and so on.

01:40:14.460 | - Does it feel like a struggle, like challenging?

01:40:17.540 | Like to be thinking of those positions

01:40:19.500 | or is it fun and relaxing?

01:40:20.940 | - No, it's completely fine.

01:40:22.380 | I don't...

01:40:24.300 | - Like if it's a difficult position to figure out,

01:40:26.260 | you know, like to calculate.

01:40:27.780 | - Then I go on to something else.

01:40:29.220 | - Okay.

01:40:30.380 | - Like if I can't figure it out, then, you know, I go on.

01:40:33.900 | - Change it so that it's easier to figure out.

01:40:37.660 | There was a point in your life

01:40:38.900 | where Kasparov was interested in being your coach

01:40:42.300 | or at least training with you.

01:40:43.540 | Why did you choose not to go with him?

01:40:45.540 | That's a pretty bold move.

01:40:46.860 | Was there a good reason for this?

01:40:49.140 | - No.

01:40:49.980 | The first homework exercise he gave me was to analyze.

01:40:56.580 | Like he picked out, I think, three or four of my worst losses

01:41:00.180 | and he wanted me to analyze them and give him my thoughts.

01:41:05.180 | And it wasn't that there were painful losses or anything,

01:41:08.340 | that that was a problem.

01:41:10.540 | I just didn't really enjoy that.

01:41:14.180 | Also, I felt that this whole structured approach

01:41:19.180 | and everything, I just felt like from the start,

01:41:22.260 | it was a hassle.

01:41:23.580 | So I loved the idea of being able to pick his brain,

01:41:28.140 | but everything else, I just, you know,

01:41:32.140 | couldn't see myself enjoying.

01:41:35.780 | And at the end of the day, I did then

01:41:39.260 | and always have played for fun.

01:41:42.180 | That's always been the main reason.

01:41:45.140 | - It's great that you had the confidence

01:41:46.500 | to sort of basically turn down the approach

01:41:50.420 | of one of the greatest chess players of all time

01:41:52.700 | at that time, probably the greatest chess player

01:41:54.580 | of all time.

01:41:55.700 | - I don't think I thought of it that way.

01:41:58.100 | I just thought this is not for me.

01:42:00.060 | I want to try another way.

01:42:01.620 | I don't think I was particularly thinking

01:42:03.180 | that this is my one opportunity or anything.

01:42:06.140 | It was just, yeah, I don't enjoy this.

01:42:08.260 | Let's try something else.

01:42:09.540 | - When you were 13, you faced Kasparov

01:42:12.420 | and he wasn't able to beat you.

01:42:14.300 | Can you go through that match?

01:42:16.860 | What did that feel like?

01:42:17.820 | How important was that?

01:42:18.940 | Was that, how epic was that?

01:42:20.900 | - We played three games.

01:42:23.100 | I lost two and I drew one.

01:42:25.580 | - Right, but one draw.

01:42:26.980 | - No, the one draw.

01:42:28.380 | - But didn't you say that you kind of

01:42:31.140 | had a better position in that?

01:42:32.740 | - Yeah, I remember that day very well.

01:42:34.940 | There was a Blitz game.

01:42:36.340 | This was a Rapid tournament.

01:42:38.300 | And there was a Blitz tournament the day before

01:42:41.220 | which determined the pairings for the Rapids.

01:42:45.940 | - And for people who don't know,

01:42:47.340 | super short games are called bullet,

01:42:49.260 | kind of short games are called Blitz,

01:42:51.820 | semi short games are called Rapid.

01:42:54.460 | - Yeah.

01:42:55.300 | (laughing)

01:42:56.140 | - And classic chess, I guess, is like very super long.

01:42:58.940 | - Yeah, yeah, basically bullet

01:43:01.700 | is never played over the board.

01:43:03.020 | So in terms of over the board chess,

01:43:05.140 | Blitz is the shortest.

01:43:06.540 | Rapid is like a hybrid between classical and Blitz.

01:43:11.260 | You need to have the skills of both.

01:43:12.780 | And then classical is long.

01:43:14.980 | The Blitz tournament, which didn't go so well.

01:43:18.420 | I got a couple of wins,

01:43:19.580 | but I was beaten badly in a lot of games,

01:43:22.140 | including by Gary.

01:43:23.980 | And so there was the pairing that I had to play him,

01:43:27.220 | which is pretty exciting.

01:43:28.660 | So I remember I was so tired after the Blitz tournament,

01:43:31.580 | like I slept for 12 hours or something.

01:43:34.380 | Then I woke up like, okay, I'll turn on my computer.

01:43:37.460 | I'll search chess space for Kasparov.

01:43:41.180 | And we'll go from there.

01:43:42.700 | (laughing)

01:43:44.220 | So before that, I hadn't spent a lot of time

01:43:47.100 | specifically studying his games.

01:43:49.060 | It was super intimidating

01:43:50.980 | because a lot of these openings I knew,

01:43:54.340 | I was like, oh, he was the first one to play that.

01:43:56.820 | Oh, that was his idea.

01:43:57.860 | I actually didn't know that.

01:43:59.620 | So I was a bit intimidated before we played.

01:44:02.500 | Then of course the first game,

01:44:04.580 | he arrived a bit late because they changed the time

01:44:08.620 | from the first day to the other, which was a bit strange.

01:44:10.980 | And everybody else had noticed it, but him.

01:44:15.300 | Then he tried to surprise me in the opening.

01:44:17.700 | I think psychologically the situation

01:44:20.540 | was not so easy for him.

01:44:21.820 | Clearly it would be embarrassing for him

01:44:23.420 | if he didn't win both games against me.

01:44:26.820 | Then I was spending way too much time on my moves

01:44:30.780 | because I was playing Kasparov.

01:44:32.220 | I was double checking everything too much.

01:44:34.020 | Normally I would be playing pretty fast in those days.

01:44:37.500 | And then at some point I calculated better than him.

01:44:42.260 | He missed a crucial detail and had a much better position.

01:44:46.660 | I couldn't convert it though.

01:44:48.020 | I knew what line I had to go for

01:44:49.700 | in order to have a chance to win.

01:44:52.980 | But I thought like, I'll play a bit more carefully.

01:44:55.740 | Maybe I can win still.

01:44:56.820 | I couldn't.

01:44:58.300 | And then I lost the second game pretty badly,

01:45:01.780 | which it wasn't majorly upsetting,

01:45:04.420 | but I felt that I had two black games against Kasparov,

01:45:08.100 | both in the Blitz and the Rapid.

01:45:09.700 | And I lost both of them without any fight whatsoever.

01:45:12.820 | I wasn't happy about that at all.

01:45:14.620 | That was like less than I thought I could be able to do.

01:45:19.100 | So to me, yeah, I was proud of that, but it was a gimmick.

01:45:24.100 | I was like a very strong IM that had GM strength.

01:45:30.700 | I was like, it can happen that a player of that strength

01:45:35.260 | makes a draw against Gary once in a while.

01:45:37.700 | - Okay, for people who don't know.

01:45:38.540 | - I mean, I understand that I'm 13,

01:45:40.540 | but like still I felt a bit more gimmicky than anything.

01:45:44.660 | I mean, I guess it's a good thing that made me noticed,

01:45:48.860 | but apart from that, it wasn't, yeah.

01:45:51.620 | - And for people who don't know,

01:45:52.980 | IM is international master and GM is grandmaster.

01:45:56.140 | And you were just on the, I guess,

01:45:57.980 | on the verge of becoming a youngest grandmaster ever.

01:46:01.260 | - I was the second youngest ever.

01:46:04.260 | I think I'm like the seventh youngest now.

01:46:06.140 | I mean, these kids these days.

01:46:08.060 | - These kids these days.

01:46:09.020 | - Yeah.

01:46:09.860 | (laughing)

01:46:10.700 | - Yeah, no.

01:46:11.540 | - But I was the youngest grandmaster at the time.

01:46:14.540 | - At the time.

01:46:15.380 | - In the world, yeah.

01:46:16.420 | - Yeah, so there is a, you know, you say it's gimmicky,

01:46:20.180 | but there's a romantic notion,

01:46:21.740 | especially as things have turned out, right?

01:46:25.820 | Like-

01:46:26.660 | - No, for sure.

01:46:27.500 | - And have you talked to Gary since then about that?

01:46:30.540 | - No, not really.

01:46:31.660 | I think he's embarrassed about that.

01:46:34.020 | - He's still bitter, you think?

01:46:35.260 | - No, I don't think he's bitter,

01:46:37.020 | but I think the game in itself

01:46:38.780 | was a bit embarrassing for him.

01:46:41.500 | - So even he can't see past, like-

01:46:45.500 | - No, no, no, I think he's completely fine with that.

01:46:47.700 | I think like in retrospect, it's a good story.

01:46:51.060 | He appreciates that.

01:46:53.340 | I don't think that's the problem,

01:46:54.500 | but it never made sense for me

01:46:56.140 | to broach the subject with him.

01:46:58.380 | - Yeah, I just, it's funny just having interacted with Gary,

01:47:03.060 | now having talked to you.

01:47:04.980 | There is a little thing you still hate losing,

01:47:08.580 | no matter how beautiful that moment is,

01:47:11.220 | 'cause it's like, in a way it's a passing of the baton

01:47:14.540 | from one great champion to another, right?

01:47:17.860 | But you still just don't like the fact

01:47:19.940 | that you didn't play a good game

01:47:21.180 | from Gary's perspective.

01:47:23.220 | He still is just annoyed probably

01:47:24.860 | that he could have played better.

01:47:27.340 | - And we did, so we did work together in 2009 quite a lot.

01:47:33.300 | And that corporation ended early 2010,

01:47:38.300 | but we did play a lot of training games in 2009,

01:47:42.300 | which was interesting because he was still very, very strong.

01:47:47.180 | And at that time it was fairly equal.

01:47:49.980 | Like he was out playing me quite a bit,

01:47:51.460 | but I was fighting well, so it was pretty even then.

01:47:56.460 | So, I mean, I appreciate those games a lot more

01:47:59.780 | than some random game from when I was 13.

01:48:03.500 | And maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about,

01:48:07.220 | but I've always found it, at least based on that game,

01:48:12.220 | you couldn't tell that I was gonna take his spot.

01:48:17.100 | Like I made a horrible blunder and lost to an Uzbek kid

01:48:22.100 | in the World Rapid Championship in 2018.

01:48:28.860 | And I mean, granted he was part of the team

01:48:30.700 | that now won gold in the Chess Olympia,

01:48:32.900 | but he wasn't a crucial part.

01:48:34.140 | He barely played any games.

01:48:35.660 | Like it wasn't like I would think

01:48:37.260 | that he would become world champion because he beat me.

01:48:39.820 | I'm always skeptical of those who said

01:48:42.220 | that they knew that I was gonna be world champion

01:48:44.540 | after that game or at all at that time.

01:48:48.340 | I mean, it was easy to see

01:48:50.100 | that I would become a very, very strong player.

01:48:52.740 | Everybody could see that, but to be the best in the world

01:48:56.140 | or one of the best ever, it's hard to say.

01:48:58.820 | - It is hard to say, but I do remember seeing Messi

01:49:01.620 | when he was 16 and 17.

01:49:03.460 | - But hasn't that happened with other players though?

01:49:07.620 | - Yeah, but I just had a personal experience.

01:49:10.860 | He did look different than, there's like magic there.

01:49:14.700 | Maybe you can't tell he would be one of the greatest ever,

01:49:18.340 | but there's still magic, but you're right.

01:49:20.340 | Most of the time we're trying to project,

01:49:22.820 | we see a young kid being an older person

01:49:25.300 | and you start to think, okay,

01:49:26.780 | this could be the next great person.

01:49:28.260 | And then we forget when they don't become that.

01:49:30.260 | - Yeah, exactly.

01:49:31.100 | That's I think what happens.

01:49:33.380 | - But when it does become--

01:49:34.860 | - Or maybe some people are just so good

01:49:38.300 | at seeing these patterns that they can actually see.

01:49:40.140 | - Aren't you supposed to do that kind of thing

01:49:41.500 | with fantasy football, like see the long shot

01:49:44.140 | and bet on them and then they turn out to be good?

01:49:46.540 | - No, you make a lot of long shot bets

01:49:49.660 | and then some of them come good.

01:49:52.020 | - And then people call you a genius for making the bet.

01:49:54.540 | Well, let me ask you the goat question again,

01:49:56.820 | from fantasy perspective,

01:49:59.260 | can you make the case for the greatest chess player

01:50:02.780 | of all time for each, yourself, Magnus Carlsen,

01:50:07.140 | for Garry Kasparov, I don't know who else,

01:50:09.300 | Bobby Fischer, Mikhail Tal, anyone else?

01:50:12.480 | For Hikaru Nakamura?

01:50:16.460 | Just kidding.

01:50:17.300 | - Yeah, I think I can make a case for myself,

01:50:22.140 | for Garry and for Fischer.

01:50:23.700 | So I'll start with Fischer.

01:50:25.660 | For him, it's very, very simple.

01:50:28.980 | He was ahead of his time, but that's intangible.

01:50:33.700 | You can say that about a lot of people.

01:50:35.980 | But he had a peak from 1970 to '72

01:50:40.980 | when he was so much better than the others.

01:50:44.580 | He won 20 games in a row.

01:50:46.900 | Also the way that he played was so powerful

01:50:50.540 | and with so few mistakes that he just had no opposition there

01:50:54.940 | so he had just a peak that's been better than anybody.

01:50:59.940 | - The gap between first and second was tight.

01:51:01.740 | - The gap between him and others was greater

01:51:05.420 | than it's ever been in history at any other time.

01:51:09.500 | And that would be the argument for him.

01:51:12.900 | For Garry, he's played in a very competitive era

01:51:17.900 | and he's beaten several generations.

01:51:21.500 | - He was the best.

01:51:24.260 | - Well, he was the consensus best player,

01:51:26.540 | I would say, for almost 20 years,

01:51:29.580 | which nobody else has done, at least in recent time.

01:51:34.580 | - So the longevity.

01:51:37.740 | - The longevity, for sure.

01:51:39.700 | Also at his peak, he was not quite the level

01:51:44.300 | of Fischer in terms of the gap,

01:51:47.100 | but it was similar to, or I think,

01:51:50.260 | even a little bit better than mine.

01:51:52.900 | As for me, I'm of course unbeaten as a world champion

01:51:57.900 | in five tries.

01:52:00.220 | I've been world number one for 11 years straight

01:52:04.460 | in an even more competitive era than Garry.

01:52:07.700 | I have the highest chess rating of all time.

01:52:10.020 | I have the longest streak ever without losing a game.

01:52:15.020 | I think for me, the main argument would be about the era

01:52:19.100 | where the engines have leveled the playing field so much

01:52:24.100 | that it's harder to dominate.

01:52:28.660 | And still, I haven't always been a clear number one,

01:52:32.580 | but I've been number one for 11 years.

01:52:34.940 | And for a lot of the time, the gap has been pretty big.

01:52:39.380 | So I think there are decent arguments for all of them.

01:52:43.340 | I've said before, and I haven't changed my mind,

01:52:45.660 | that Garry generally edges it because of the longevity

01:52:49.660 | in the competitive era, but there are arguments.

01:52:54.660 | - But people also talk about you

01:52:56.740 | in terms of the style of play.

01:52:58.260 | So it's not just about dominance or the height,

01:53:01.420 | it's just the creative genius of it.

01:53:05.340 | - Yeah, but I'm not interested in that.

01:53:07.340 | (laughing)

01:53:08.860 | In terms of greatest of all time,

01:53:11.580 | I'm not interested in questions of style.

01:53:16.180 | - So for Messi, you don't give credit for the style,

01:53:20.220 | for the stylistic?

01:53:21.100 | - I like, no, I like watching it.

01:53:24.300 | - But you're not gonna give points for the,

01:53:27.220 | so Messi gets the best ever because of the finishing.

01:53:30.020 | - No, it's not because of the finishing,

01:53:34.340 | it's because of his overall impact on the game

01:53:37.500 | is higher than anybody else's.

01:53:39.340 | - Okay.

01:53:40.180 | (laughing)

01:53:41.380 | - He contributes, he just contributes more to winning

01:53:45.260 | than anybody else does.

01:53:46.940 | - What's, so you're somebody who is advocated for

01:53:50.980 | and has done quite a bit of study of classic games.

01:53:53.740 | What would you say is, I mean, maybe the number one

01:53:58.740 | or maybe top three games of chess ever played?

01:54:02.340 | - That doesn't interest me at all.

01:54:04.820 | - You don't think of them as--

01:54:05.860 | - No, I don't think of it, I mean, I try to,

01:54:08.260 | I find the games interesting, I try to learn from them,

01:54:10.700 | but like trying to rank them has never interested me.

01:54:13.580 | - What games pop out to you as like super interesting then?

01:54:16.940 | Is there things like where idea, like old school games

01:54:20.980 | where there's like interesting ideas that you go back

01:54:25.980 | or like you find surprising and pretty cool

01:54:29.780 | that those ideas were developed back then?

01:54:32.140 | Is there something that jumps to mind?

01:54:35.420 | - Yeah, there are several games of young Kasparov,

01:54:40.340 | like before he became world champion.

01:54:43.180 | If you're gonna ask for like my favorite player

01:54:45.860 | or favorite style, that's probably--

01:54:47.740 | - Young Kasparov.

01:54:48.740 | - Young Kasparov.

01:54:49.580 | - Can you describe stylistically or in any other way

01:54:52.660 | what young Kasparov was like that you like?

01:54:57.020 | - It was just an overflow energy in his play.

01:54:59.860 | - So aggressive attacking chess.

01:55:00.900 | - Yeah, extremely aggressive dynamic chess.

01:55:04.220 | It probably appeals to me a lot

01:55:06.780 | because these are the things that I cannot do as well,

01:55:11.380 | that it just feels very special to me.

01:55:15.700 | But yeah, in terms of games,

01:55:17.740 | I never thought about that too much.

01:55:21.780 | - Is there memories, big or small, weird, surprising,

01:55:28.060 | just any kind of beautiful anecdote from your chess career,

01:55:33.820 | like stuff that pops out that people might not know about

01:55:36.740 | or just stuff when you look back and just makes you smile?

01:55:40.020 | - No, so I'll tell you about the most satisfying

01:55:45.020 | tournament victory of my career.

01:55:46.740 | So that was the Norwegian Championship Under 11 in 2000.

01:55:52.380 | Before that tournament, I was super anxious

01:55:55.940 | because I started like kind of late at chess.

01:56:00.100 | I played my first tournament when I was eight and a half

01:56:02.820 | and a lot of my competitors had already played

01:56:05.180 | for a couple of years or even three, four years

01:56:09.140 | at that point.

01:56:10.500 | And the first time, so I played the Under 11 Championship

01:56:14.300 | in '99, that was like a little over the middle of the pack.

01:56:18.100 | I'd never played against any of them before,

01:56:20.060 | so I didn't know what to expect at all.

01:56:22.180 | And then over the next year,

01:56:23.780 | I was like edging a little bit closer.

01:56:26.740 | In each tournament, I felt like I was getting

01:56:28.740 | a little bit better.

01:56:30.020 | And when we had the championship, I knew that I was ready,

01:56:34.580 | that I was now at the same level of the best players.

01:56:38.820 | I was so anxious to show it.

01:56:41.300 | I remember I was just, the feeling of excitement

01:56:44.660 | and nervousness before the tournament was incredible.

01:56:47.900 | The tournament was weird because I started out,

01:56:51.540 | I gave away a draw to a weaker player,

01:56:54.100 | whom I shouldn't have drawn to.

01:56:57.940 | And then I drew against the other guy

01:57:01.700 | who was clearly like the best or second best.

01:57:05.540 | And at that point, I thought it was over

01:57:08.380 | 'cause I thought he wouldn't give away points to others.

01:57:12.820 | And then the very next day, he lost to somebody.

01:57:16.100 | So the rest of the tournament, it was just like,

01:57:19.180 | I was always like playing my game and watching his.

01:57:21.940 | And we both won the rest of our games,

01:57:24.660 | but it meant that I was half a point ahead.

01:57:27.060 | Like the feeling when I realized that I was gonna win,

01:57:31.420 | that was just so amazing.

01:57:34.260 | It was like the first time that I was the best at my age.

01:57:39.260 | And at that point-

01:57:43.740 | - You were hooked.

01:57:44.580 | - Yeah, at that point I realized,

01:57:46.220 | I could actually be very good at this.

01:57:49.860 | - So you kind of saw,

01:57:51.820 | what did you think your ceiling would be?

01:57:53.820 | Did you see that one day you could be the number one-

01:57:57.300 | - No, I didn't think that was possible at all.

01:58:00.780 | But I thought I could be the best in Norway.

01:58:04.780 | - The best in Norway.

01:58:05.780 | - At that point.

01:58:06.620 | - When did you first-

01:58:07.460 | - Because I started relatively late.

01:58:09.580 | - Right, so yeah.

01:58:10.420 | - And also, I knew that I studied a lot more than the others.

01:58:15.420 | I knew that I had a passion that they didn't have.

01:58:19.340 | They saw chess as something like,

01:58:23.340 | it was a hobby, it was like an activity.

01:58:27.540 | It was like going to football practice or any other sports.

01:58:32.540 | Like you go, you practice like once or twice a week,

01:58:37.260 | and then you play a tournament at the weekend.

01:58:39.140 | That's what you did.

01:58:40.780 | For me, it wasn't like that.

01:58:42.180 | Like I would go with my books and my board

01:58:45.660 | every day after school.

01:58:47.460 | And I would just constantly be trying to learn new things.

01:58:55.700 | I had like two hours of internet time

01:58:59.460 | on the computer each week.

01:59:01.140 | And I would always spend them on chess.

01:59:04.260 | Like I think before I was 13 or 14,

01:59:10.580 | I'd never opened a browser

01:59:15.940 | for any other reason than to play chess.

01:59:18.420 | - Would you describe that as love or as obsession

01:59:22.660 | or something in between, it's everything?

01:59:25.660 | - Yeah, everything.

01:59:26.620 | So I mean, it wasn't hard for me to tell at that point

01:59:32.580 | that I had something that the other kids didn't

01:59:36.500 | because I was never the one to grasp something

01:59:41.020 | very, very quickly.

01:59:41.980 | But once I started, I always got hooked

01:59:44.180 | and then I never stopped learning.

01:59:46.260 | - What would you say, you've talked about the middle game

01:59:49.260 | as a place where you can play pure chess.

01:59:52.620 | What do you think is beautiful to you about chess?

01:59:55.140 | Like the thing when you were 11.

01:59:58.540 | - What is beautiful to me is when your opponent

02:00:01.820 | can predict every single one of your moves

02:00:04.260 | and they still lose.

02:00:05.260 | - How does that happen?

02:00:07.100 | - No, like it means that at some point early,

02:00:10.620 | your planning, your evaluation has been better

02:00:14.140 | so that you play just very simply, very clearly.

02:00:17.180 | It looks like you did nothing special

02:00:19.900 | and your opponent lost without a chance.

02:00:22.300 | - So how do you think about that, by the way?

02:00:25.260 | Are you basically narrowing down this gigantic tree

02:00:27.940 | of options to where your opponent has less and less

02:00:31.140 | and less options to win, to escape, and then they're trapped?

02:00:35.420 | - Yeah, essentially.

02:00:37.660 | - Is there some aspect to the patterns themselves,

02:00:40.100 | to the positions, to the elegance of like

02:00:44.100 | the dynamics of the game that you just find beautiful

02:00:48.820 | that doesn't, that, where you forget about the opponent?

02:00:52.820 | - General, I try and create harmony on the board.

02:00:58.260 | Like what I would usually find harmonious

02:01:00.820 | is that the pieces work together,

02:01:05.500 | that they protect each other,

02:01:08.260 | and that there are no pieces that are suboptimally placed.

02:01:13.260 | Or if they are suboptimally placed,

02:01:16.980 | they can be improved pretty easily.

02:01:19.060 | Like I hate when I have one piece that I know

02:01:23.300 | is badly placed and I cannot improve it.

02:01:25.300 | - Yeah, when you're thinking about the harmony of the pieces

02:01:29.420 | and when you're looking at the position,

02:01:30.580 | you're evaluating it, are you looking at the whole board?

02:01:35.580 | Or is it like a bunch of groupings of pieces overlapping

02:01:41.780 | and like dancing together kind of thing?

02:01:44.460 | - I would say it's more of the latter

02:01:47.300 | that would be more precise that you look.

02:01:50.580 | I mean, I look mostly closer to the middle,

02:01:54.980 | but then I would focus on one,

02:01:57.620 | like there are usually like one grouping of pieces

02:02:00.060 | on one side and then some more closer to the other side.

02:02:04.500 | So I would think of it a little bit that way.

02:02:08.260 | - So, and everything's kind of gravitating to the middle.

02:02:11.940 | - If it's going well, then yes.

02:02:13.940 | - And in harmony.

02:02:15.180 | - Yeah, in harmony.

02:02:16.740 | Like if you can control the middle,

02:02:20.180 | you can more easily attack on both sides.

02:02:22.980 | That applies to pretty much any game.

02:02:26.700 | It's as simple as that.

02:02:27.620 | And like attacking on one side without control of the middle

02:02:32.620 | would feel very non-harmonious for me.

02:02:37.540 | Like I talked about the 10th game

02:02:42.380 | in the world championship,

02:02:43.620 | like that's the time I was the most nervous.

02:02:45.900 | And it was because it was a kind of attack that I hate

02:02:50.060 | where you just have to, you're abandoned one side

02:02:53.460 | and you, the attack has to work.

02:02:57.620 | There was one side and part of the middle as well,

02:03:00.060 | which I didn't control at all.

02:03:01.860 | And that's like the opposite of harmony for me.

02:03:05.620 | - What advice would you give to chess players

02:03:10.540 | of different levels, how to improve in chess?

02:03:14.580 | Very beginner, complete beginner.

02:03:16.940 | I mean, at every level, is there something you can-

02:03:19.780 | - It's very hard for me to say,

02:03:21.780 | because I mean, the easiest way is like,

02:03:25.860 | love chess, be obsessed.

02:03:28.060 | - Well, that's a really important statement.

02:03:29.780 | - That doesn't work for everybody.

02:03:31.940 | So I feel like-

02:03:32.780 | - It can feel like a grind.

02:03:34.620 | So you're saying if the less it can feel like a grind,

02:03:37.540 | the better, the better.

02:03:38.860 | - Yeah, for sure.

02:03:39.700 | - That's the case for you.

02:03:40.820 | - That's for sure.

02:03:41.660 | But I'm also very, very skeptical about giving advice

02:03:46.620 | because I think, again, my way only works

02:03:50.940 | if you have some combination of talent and obsession.

02:03:55.940 | So I'm not sure that I'd generally recommend it.

02:03:59.580 | Like what I've done doesn't go with

02:04:02.940 | what most coaches suggest for their kids.

02:04:06.540 | I've been lucky that I've had coaches from early on

02:04:09.740 | that have been very, very hands-off

02:04:11.860 | and just allowed me to do my thing, basically.

02:04:14.660 | - Well, there's a lot to be said

02:04:17.140 | about cultivating the obsession.

02:04:20.540 | Like really letting that flourish

02:04:24.740 | to where you spend a lot of hours

02:04:26.940 | like with the chessboard in your head

02:04:29.780 | and it doesn't feel like a struggle.

02:04:31.780 | - No, so like just letting me do my thing.

02:04:35.940 | Like if you give me a bunch of work,

02:04:37.300 | it will probably feel like a chore.

02:04:38.500 | And if you don't give me,

02:04:39.620 | I will spend all of that time on my own

02:04:42.900 | without thinking that it's work

02:04:45.140 | or without the thought that I'm doing this

02:04:47.660 | to improve my chess.

02:04:49.780 | - Well, in terms of learning stuff like books,

02:04:52.180 | there's one thing that's relatively novel

02:04:56.260 | from your perspective, people are starting now,

02:04:58.100 | is there's YouTube.

02:04:59.020 | There's a lot of good YouTubers.

02:05:00.940 | You're a part-time YouTuber.

02:05:02.860 | You have stuff on YouTube, I guess.

02:05:04.340 | - Yeah, I have, but if you've seen my YouTube,

02:05:06.900 | it's mostly like--

02:05:07.740 | - It's very--

02:05:08.580 | - It's not--

02:05:09.780 | - It's carefree.

02:05:10.620 | - Definitely not high effort content.

02:05:13.020 | - Yeah, but do you like any particular YouTubers?

02:05:16.540 | I could just recommend like stuff I've seen.

02:05:19.500 | So Agadmar, Gotham Chess, Botes Live.

02:05:23.740 | I really like St. Louis Chess Club,

02:05:27.660 | Daniel Naroditsky and John Bartholomew.

02:05:32.180 | Those are good channels,

02:05:33.060 | but is there something you can recommend?

02:05:34.700 | - No, all of them are good.

02:05:36.300 | You know, the best recommendation I could give

02:05:41.860 | is Agadmar, purely--

02:05:45.540 | - How much did he pay you to say that?

02:05:47.100 | - No, so the thing about that is that I haven't really,

02:05:51.180 | I have, so I can tell you I've never watched

02:05:53.540 | any of his videos from start to finish.

02:05:56.780 | I'm not like, I'm not the target audience, obviously.

02:05:59.940 | But I think the only chess YouTube video

02:06:03.820 | that my dad has ever watched from start to finish

02:06:07.060 | is Agadmar.

02:06:08.540 | And he said, like, I watched one of his videos.

02:06:12.300 | I wanted to know what it was all about.

02:06:14.580 | Because I think Agadmar is like the same strength

02:06:19.020 | as my father, or maybe just a little bit weaker,

02:06:21.180 | like 1900 or something.

02:06:23.300 | My father is probably about 2000.

02:06:25.700 | And my father has played chess his whole life.

02:06:28.100 | He loves, he absolutely loves the game.

02:06:30.180 | It was like, that's the only time he's actually sat

02:06:32.740 | through one of those videos.

02:06:33.820 | And he said, like, yeah, I get it, I enjoy it.

02:06:36.540 | So that's the best recommendation I could give.

02:06:39.340 | That's the only channel that my father actually enjoys.

02:06:44.220 | - This is hilarious.

02:06:45.060 | I talked to him before this to ask him

02:06:47.340 | if he has any questions for you.

02:06:48.940 | And he said, no, just do your thing.

02:06:51.700 | You know what you're doing.

02:06:52.540 | - No, he's so careful.

02:06:53.380 | He wouldn't do that.

02:06:54.820 | - He did mention jokingly about Evans' Gambit, I think.

02:06:59.620 | Is that a thing?

02:07:00.460 | Evans' Gambit?

02:07:01.460 | It's some weird thing he made up.

02:07:03.140 | It might be an inside joke.

02:07:04.700 | I don't know, but he asked me to.

02:07:06.780 | Well, anyway.

02:07:07.620 | - Yeah, I didn't even get the--

02:07:10.260 | - It's something he made up.

02:07:11.860 | - I didn't even realize that he plays the Evans' Gambit.

02:07:15.180 | Like, he plays a lot of Gambits that are--

02:07:17.060 | - Wait, Evans' Gambit is a thing?

02:07:18.420 | - Yeah, yeah, that's a thing.

02:07:19.460 | Like, that's an old opening from the 1800s.

02:07:22.620 | Captain Evans apparently invented it.

02:07:25.180 | - Why would he mention that particular one?

02:07:26.700 | There's something hilarious about that one.

02:07:28.980 | - I don't know.

02:07:29.820 | I don't think I've ever faced the Evans' Gambit in a game.

02:07:34.380 | - I feel like both of you are trolling me right now.

02:07:37.820 | - But I mean, he's played a lot of other Gambits.

02:07:42.820 | Maybe this is the one he wanted to mention.

02:07:45.460 | So this, maybe this is called the Evans' Gambit as well.

02:07:48.900 | But I just know it as like the 2G4 Gambit.

02:07:52.540 | Maybe this is the one.

02:07:53.780 | Like this one he has played a bunch.

02:07:57.900 | And he's been telling me a lot about his games in this line.

02:08:04.260 | He's like, "Oh, it's not so bad."

02:08:06.540 | And I'm like, "Yeah, but you're a pawn down."

02:08:09.380 | But I can sort of see it.

02:08:10.780 | I can sort of understand it.

02:08:12.860 | And he's proud of the fact that nobody told him

02:08:16.700 | to play this line or anything.

02:08:17.780 | He came up with it himself.

02:08:19.940 | And there's this, I'll tell you another story

02:08:23.060 | about my father.

02:08:23.900 | So there's this line that I call

02:08:26.060 | the Henry Carlson line.

02:08:28.740 | So at some point, he never knew a lot of openings in chess,

02:08:36.300 | but I taught him a couple of openings as black.

02:08:40.940 | It's the Sveshnikov Sicilian

02:08:45.460 | that I played a lot myself also

02:08:49.420 | during the world championship in 2018.

02:08:52.340 | I won a bunch of games in 2019 as well.

02:08:55.100 | So that's one opening.

02:08:55.940 | And I also taught him as black to play the Ragosin defense.

02:08:58.780 | And then, so the Ragosin defense goes like this.

02:09:04.180 | It's characterized by this bishop move.

02:09:08.940 | And so he would play those openings pretty exclusively

02:09:15.140 | and as black in the tournaments that he did play.

02:09:17.780 | And also the Sveshnikov Sicilian is like,

02:09:20.780 | that's the only, two of my sisters play,

02:09:23.820 | have played a bunch of chess tournaments as well.

02:09:26.100 | And that's the only opening they know as well.

02:09:29.020 | So my family's repertoire is very narrow.

02:09:32.300 | So this is the system.

02:09:35.660 | Black goes here and then we all from white takes the pawn

02:09:38.060 | and black takes the pawn.

02:09:39.300 | So at some point I was watching one of my father's

02:09:45.140 | online blitz game.

02:09:47.380 | And as white, he played this, this.

02:09:52.500 | So this is called the Karakhan defense.

02:09:54.340 | He took the pawn,

02:09:55.580 | was taken back and then he went with the knight.

02:10:00.580 | His opponent went here and then he played a bishop here.

02:10:05.340 | So I'd never seen this opening before.

02:10:08.300 | And I was like, wow, how on earth did he come up with that?

02:10:13.300 | And he said, no, I just played the Ragosin

02:10:15.420 | with the different colors,

02:10:16.580 | because if the knight was here,

02:10:18.100 | it would be the same position.

02:10:19.700 | I was like, I never, I was like,

02:10:22.140 | how am I like one of the best 20 players in the world?

02:10:27.140 | And I've never thought about that.

02:10:28.980 | So I actually started playing,

02:10:30.860 | I started playing this line as white

02:10:34.140 | with pretty decent results.

02:10:35.540 | And it actually became kind of popular.

02:10:39.460 | And everybody who asked about the line,

02:10:42.780 | it's like, I would always tell them,

02:10:43.740 | yeah, that's the Henry Carlson.

02:10:45.980 | I wouldn't necessarily explain why it was called that.

02:10:48.300 | I would just always call it that.

02:10:50.100 | So I really hope at this point,

02:10:51.500 | at some point this line will be,

02:10:54.380 | will find its rightful name.

02:10:56.700 | - In the, yeah, it finds its way into the history books.

02:10:59.940 | Can you, what'd you learn about life from your dad?

02:11:03.900 | What role has your dad played in your life?

02:11:06.100 | - He's taught me a lot of things,

02:11:10.500 | but most of all, as long as you win a chess,

02:11:14.660 | then everything else is fine.

02:11:16.100 | I think my, especially my father,

02:11:23.220 | but my parents in general,

02:11:24.500 | they always wanted me to get a good education

02:11:29.500 | and find a job and so on.

02:11:33.700 | Even though my father loves chess

02:11:35.100 | and he wanted me to play chess,

02:11:36.780 | I don't think he had any plans for me to be professional.

02:11:41.500 | I think things changed at some point.

02:11:44.060 | Like I was less and less interested in school

02:11:47.860 | and for a long time,

02:11:50.740 | we were kind of going back and forth,

02:11:52.900 | fighting about that, especially my father,

02:11:55.740 | but also my mother a little bit.

02:11:57.660 | It was at times a little bit difficult.

02:11:59.900 | - They wanted you to go to school.

02:12:01.140 | - Yeah, they sort of wanted me to do more school,

02:12:04.300 | to have more options.

02:12:05.580 | And then I think at some point,

02:12:08.740 | they just gave up.

02:12:12.180 | But I think that sort of coincided

02:12:15.580 | when I was actually starting to make real money

02:12:17.420 | of tournaments.

02:12:18.500 | And after that, everything's been sort of easy

02:12:23.100 | in terms of the family.

02:12:25.220 | They've never put any pressure on me

02:12:29.900 | or they've never put any demands on me.

02:12:33.020 | They're just, yeah,

02:12:33.860 | my eyes has to focus on chess.

02:12:35.300 | That's it.

02:12:39.580 | I think they taught me in general

02:12:41.380 | to be curious about the world

02:12:43.900 | and to get a decent general education,

02:12:48.900 | not necessarily from school,

02:12:51.220 | but just knowing about the world around you

02:12:55.700 | and knowing history and being interested in society.

02:13:01.220 | I think in that sense, they've done well.

02:13:04.940 | - And he's been with you throughout your chess career.

02:13:07.860 | I mean, there's something to be said

02:13:09.820 | about just family support and love that you have.

02:13:14.820 | This world is a lonely place.

02:13:18.900 | It's good to have people around you there

02:13:20.740 | like they got your back kind of.

02:13:24.180 | - Yeah, it's a cliche,

02:13:26.740 | but I think to some extent,

02:13:29.060 | all the people you surround yourself with,

02:13:32.300 | they can help you a lot.

02:13:36.780 | It's only family that only has their own interests at heart.

02:13:41.100 | And so for that reason,

02:13:43.980 | my father's the only one that's been constantly

02:13:48.220 | in the team that he's always been around.

02:13:51.380 | And it's for that reason

02:13:52.700 | that I know he has my back no matter what.

02:13:54.980 | - Now, there's a cliche question here,

02:13:58.940 | but let's try to actually get to some deep truth perhaps.

02:14:03.820 | But people who don't know much about chess

02:14:06.260 | seem to like to use chess as a metaphor

02:14:08.860 | for everything in life.

02:14:10.740 | But there is some aspect to the decision-making,

02:14:14.540 | to the kind of reasoning involved in chess

02:14:16.420 | that's transferable to other things.

02:14:19.180 | Can you speak to that in your own life and in general?

02:14:23.620 | The kind of reasoning involved with chess,

02:14:27.900 | how much does that transfer to life out there?

02:14:32.420 | - It just helps you make decisions.

02:14:34.900 | - Of all kinds.

02:14:36.060 | - Yeah, that would be my main takeaway,

02:14:38.220 | that you learn to make informed guesses

02:14:40.900 | in a limited amount of time.

02:14:42.620 | - I mean, does it frustrate you when

02:14:45.660 | you have geopolitical thinkers and leaders,

02:14:49.500 | Henry Kissinger will often talk about geopolitics

02:14:52.780 | as a game of chess or 3D chess.

02:14:55.740 | Is that too oversimplified of a projection?

02:14:58.260 | Or do you think that the kind of deliberations

02:15:02.220 | you have on the world stage is similar

02:15:04.820 | to the kind of decision-making you have on the chessboard?

02:15:08.620 | - Well, I'm never trying to get reelected

02:15:11.540 | when I play a game of chess.

02:15:13.060 | (laughing)

02:15:14.740 | - There's no special interest, you have to get happy.

02:15:16.780 | - Yeah, that kind of helps.

02:15:18.900 | No, I can understand that.

02:15:23.020 | Obviously, for every action, there's a reaction,

02:15:25.540 | and you have to calculate far ahead.

02:15:29.700 | It probably would be a good thing

02:15:31.580 | if more big players on the international scene

02:15:35.860 | thought a little bit more like a chess player in that sense,

02:15:40.100 | like trying to make good decision

02:15:42.420 | based on limited amounts of data,

02:15:46.380 | rather than thinking about other factors,

02:15:49.620 | but it's so tough.

02:15:51.100 | But it does annoy me when people make moves

02:15:55.260 | that they know are wrong for different reasons.

02:15:58.220 | - And they should know, if they did some calculation,

02:16:00.460 | they should know they're wrong.

02:16:01.300 | - Yeah, exactly, that they should know that are wrong.

02:16:04.580 | And so much politics is like,

02:16:08.420 | you're often asked to do something

02:16:13.260 | when it would be much better to do nothing.

02:16:17.340 | (laughing)

02:16:20.220 | No, but that happens in chess all the time.

02:16:21.900 | Like, you have a choice.

02:16:24.060 | Like, I often tell people that in certain situations,

02:16:28.500 | you should not try and win,

02:16:29.780 | you should just let your opponent lose.

02:16:32.620 | And that happens in politics all the time.

02:16:35.980 | But yeah, just let your opponents

02:16:40.540 | continue whatever they're doing, and then you'll win.

02:16:43.340 | Don't try to do something just to do something.

02:16:45.740 | Often, they say in chess that having a bad plan

02:16:50.380 | is better than having no plan.

02:16:52.380 | It's absolute nonsense.

02:16:53.860 | - I forget what General said, but it was like,

02:16:58.700 | don't interrupt your enemy when they're making a mistake.

02:17:01.820 | - Yeah, also Petrosyan, the former world champion,

02:17:06.820 | said when your opponent wants to play Dutch defense,

02:17:11.940 | don't stop them.

02:17:13.380 | I mean, chess players will know that it's the same thing.

02:17:19.820 | - Actually, this reminds me,

02:17:21.220 | is there something you found really impressive

02:17:24.060 | about "Queen's Gambit," the TV show?

02:17:26.180 | You know, that's one of the things

02:17:27.220 | that really captivated the public imagination about chess.

02:17:30.220 | People who don't play chess

02:17:31.260 | became very curious about the game,

02:17:33.660 | about the beauty of the game, the drama of the game,

02:17:36.100 | all that kind of stuff.

02:17:37.100 | Is there, in terms of accuracy,

02:17:38.940 | in terms of the actual games played,

02:17:41.260 | that you found impressive?

02:17:44.300 | - First of all, they did the chess well,

02:17:46.980 | they did it accurately.

02:17:48.300 | And also, they found actual games and positions

02:17:51.740 | that I'd never seen before.

02:17:53.980 | It really captivated me.

02:17:55.140 | Like, I would not follow the story at times.

02:17:59.500 | I was just trying to, wow,

02:18:01.340 | where the hell did I find that game?

02:18:03.900 | I was trying to solve the positions.

02:18:05.980 | - So, Beth Harmon, the main character,

02:18:09.380 | were you impressed by the play she was doing?

02:18:12.580 | Was there a particular style

02:18:15.340 | that they developed consistently?

02:18:17.260 | - She was just, at the end,

02:18:18.660 | she was just totally universal.

02:18:20.740 | Like, at the start, she was probably a bit too aggressive,

02:18:25.020 | but no, she was absolutely universal.

02:18:28.060 | - Wait, what adjective are you using?

02:18:30.980 | - Universal in the sense that she could play in any style.

02:18:34.900 | - Oh, interesting.

02:18:37.020 | And was dominant in that way.

02:18:38.820 | So, wow, so there was a development in style, too,

02:18:41.420 | throughout the show.

02:18:42.300 | - Yeah, for sure.

02:18:43.140 | - It's really interesting they did that.

02:18:44.620 | - Yeah.

02:18:45.860 | And it actually happened with me a bit as well.

02:18:49.020 | Like, I started out really aggressive.

02:18:51.660 | Then I became probably too technical at some point,

02:18:56.420 | taking a little bit too few risks

02:18:58.180 | and not playing dynamic enough.

02:19:00.060 | And then I started to get a little bit better at dynamics

02:19:03.300 | so that now I'm, I would say,

02:19:05.740 | definitely the most universal player in terms of style.

02:19:09.860 | - Are there any skills in chess

02:19:12.260 | that are transferable to poker?

02:19:14.340 | So as you're playing around with poker a little bit now,

02:19:17.700 | how fundamentally different of a game is it?

02:19:19.900 | - What I find the most transferable probably

02:19:23.740 | is not letting past decisions dictate future thinking.

02:19:28.740 | - Yeah.

02:19:32.380 | But in terms of the patterns in the betting strategies

02:19:34.780 | and all that kind of stuff, what about bluffing?

02:19:37.260 | - I bluff way too much.

02:19:39.820 | - It does seem you enjoy bluffing,

02:19:42.500 | and Daniel Negreanu was saying that you're quite good at it.

02:19:45.900 | - But yeah, it has very little material to go by.

02:19:49.620 | - Sample size is small.

02:19:50.660 | - Yeah.

02:19:51.580 | No, I mean, I enjoy bluffing

02:19:53.300 | for more of the gambling aspects, the thrill of.

02:19:57.540 | - So not the technical aspect of the bluffing

02:19:59.700 | like you would on the chessboard.

02:20:01.940 | - Not bluffing in the same sense,

02:20:03.460 | but there is some element.

02:20:05.460 | But I do enjoy it on the chessboard.

02:20:09.060 | Like if I know that like, oh, I successfully scared away

02:20:13.340 | my opponent from making the best move,

02:20:14.780 | that's of course satisfying.

02:20:16.620 | - In that same way, it might be satisfying in poker, right?

02:20:20.820 | That you represent something,

02:20:22.460 | you scare away your opponent in the same kind of way.

02:20:25.140 | - And also like you tell a story,

02:20:27.540 | you try and tell a story and then they believe it.

02:20:30.460 | - Yeah, tell a story with your betting,

02:20:32.660 | with all the different other cues.

02:20:36.860 | - Do you like the money aspect, the betting strategies?

02:20:40.300 | So it's almost like another layer on top of it, right?

02:20:43.340 | Like it's the uncertainty in the cards,

02:20:48.340 | but the betting, there's so much freedom to the betting.

02:20:52.660 | - I'm not very good at that.

02:20:54.620 | So I cannot say that I understand it completely.

02:20:58.860 | You know, when it comes to different sizing and all that,

02:21:03.860 | I just haven't studied it enough.

02:21:05.700 | - How much of luck is part of poker, would you say,

02:21:08.340 | from what you've seen versus skill?

02:21:12.020 | - I mean, it's so different in the sense

02:21:14.100 | that you can be one of the best players in the world

02:21:16.620 | and lose two or three years in a row

02:21:18.620 | without that being like a massive outlier.

02:21:23.620 | - Okay, the thing that more than one person told me

02:21:27.700 | that you're very good at is trash talking.

02:21:29.800 | - I don't think I am.

02:21:32.860 | A lot of people who make those observations about me,

02:21:37.860 | I think they just expect very, very little.

02:21:40.700 | So they expect from the best chess player in the world,

02:21:44.940 | that just anything that's non-robotic is interesting.

02:21:49.500 | Also, when it comes to trash talking,

02:21:52.540 | like I have the biggest advantage in the world

02:21:54.540 | that I'm the best at what I'm doing.

02:21:56.260 | So trash talking becomes very, very, very easy

02:21:58.540 | because I can back it up.

02:21:59.980 | - Yeah, yeah, but a lot of people

02:22:02.500 | that are extremely good at stuff don't trash talk

02:22:04.940 | and they're not good at it.

02:22:06.140 | - I don't think I'm very good at it.

02:22:07.580 | It's just that I can back it up,

02:22:09.980 | which makes it seem that I'm better.

02:22:12.140 | And also-- - You're even doing it now.

02:22:14.740 | - Also being non-robotic or not completely robotic.

02:22:18.980 | - Yeah, yeah, you're not trash talking,

02:22:21.580 | you're just stating facts, that's right.

02:22:23.620 | Have you ever considered that there would be trash talking

02:22:28.780 | over the chess board in some of the big tournaments?

02:22:31.540 | Like adding that kind of component, or even talking?

02:22:34.860 | Would that completely distract from the game of chess?

02:22:38.860 | - No, I think it could be funny.

02:22:40.940 | When people play offline games,

02:22:44.500 | when they play Blitz games,

02:22:46.580 | people trash talk all the time.

02:22:48.020 | It's a normal part of the game.

02:22:49.620 | - So you emphasize fun a lot.

02:22:54.580 | Do you think we're living inside of a simulation

02:22:58.820 | that is trying to maximize fun?

02:23:01.060 | - But that's only happened for the last 100 years or so.

02:23:08.980 | - Fun has always been increasing, I think.

02:23:12.700 | - Yeah, okay, it's always been increasing,

02:23:14.340 | but I feel like it's been increasing exponentially.

02:23:16.900 | - Yeah.

02:23:19.260 | - I mean, or at least the importance of fun.

02:23:22.580 | But I guess it depends on the society as well.

02:23:24.980 | Like in the West, we've had such a Christian influence.

02:23:29.780 | And I mean, Christianity hasn't exactly embraced

02:23:33.900 | the concept of fun over time.

02:23:37.380 | - Well, actually, to push back,

02:23:38.420 | I think forbidding certain things

02:23:40.580 | kind of makes them more fun.

02:23:42.300 | So sometimes I think you need to say,

02:23:44.700 | "You're not allowed to do this."

02:23:46.540 | And then a lot of people start doing it,

02:23:48.380 | and then they have fun doing that.

02:23:49.740 | It's like it's doing a thing

02:23:53.580 | in the face of the resistance of the thing.

02:23:55.500 | So whenever there's resistance,

02:23:57.060 | that does somehow make it more fun.

02:23:59.140 | - Oppressive regimes has always been

02:24:02.420 | kind of good for comedy, no?

02:24:03.820 | Like, no, but I heard, supposedly, like in the Soviet Union,

02:24:08.740 | I don't know about fun, but supposedly comedy,

02:24:12.060 | like at least underground, it thrives.

02:24:14.260 | - Yeah, there's a, well, no, it permeates the entire culture.

02:24:16.860 | There's a dark humor that sort of the cruelty,

02:24:20.420 | the absurdity of life really brings out the humor

02:24:23.940 | amongst the populace, plus vodka on top of that.

02:24:26.820 | But this idea that, for example, Elon Musk has

02:24:29.660 | that the most entertaining outcome is the most likely,

02:24:34.660 | that it seems like the most absurd, silly, funny thing

02:24:40.020 | seems to be the thing that--

02:24:41.340 | - So it happens more often than it should.

02:24:44.740 | And it somehow becomes viral in our modern connected world.

02:24:49.180 | And so the fun stuff, the memes spread,

02:24:53.380 | and then we start to optimize for the fun meme

02:24:56.820 | that seems to be a fundamental property

02:24:58.580 | of the reality we live in.

02:25:00.360 | And so emerges the fun maximizer in all walks of life,

02:25:06.500 | like in chess, in poker, in everything.

02:25:11.500 | You're skeptical.

02:25:14.660 | - No, I'm not skeptical.

02:25:15.940 | I'm just taking it all in.

02:25:19.460 | But I find it interesting and not at all impossible.

02:25:24.060 | - Do you ever get lonely?

02:25:26.740 | - Oh yeah, for sure.

02:25:27.820 | Like a chess player's life is, by definition, pretty lonely.

02:25:32.660 | Because you have nobody else to blame but yourself

02:25:36.660 | when you lose or you don't achieve the results

02:25:39.700 | that you wanna achieve.

02:25:41.180 | - So it's difficult for you to find comfort elsewhere.

02:25:44.540 | It's in your own mind.

02:25:46.340 | - Yeah.

02:25:47.180 | - It's you versus yourself, really.

02:25:48.580 | - Yeah, really.

02:25:49.420 | But it's part of the profession.

02:25:55.260 | But I think any sport or activity

02:25:58.540 | where it's just you and your own mind,

02:26:02.580 | it's just by definition lonely.

02:26:04.780 | - Are you worried that it destroys you?

02:26:07.020 | - Oh, not at all.

02:26:08.140 | As long as I'm aware of it, then it's fine.

02:26:10.660 | And I don't think the inherent loneliness

02:26:15.660 | of my profession really affects the rest of my life

02:26:20.500 | in a major way.

02:26:21.740 | - What role does love play in the human condition

02:26:26.780 | and in your lonely life of calculation?

02:26:30.780 | - You know, I'm like everybody else,

02:26:37.580 | I'm just trying, you know.

02:26:39.580 | - Trying to find love?

02:26:41.580 | - No, not necessarily like trying to find love.

02:26:43.900 | Sometimes I am, sometimes I'm not.

02:26:46.740 | I'm just trying to find my way.

02:26:48.540 | - Yeah.

02:26:49.380 | - And my love for the game,

02:26:54.380 | obviously it comes and goes a little bit,

02:26:56.060 | but there's always at least some level of love.

02:26:59.420 | So that doesn't go away.

02:27:02.020 | But I think in other parts of life,

02:27:05.740 | I think it's just about doing things that make you happy,

02:27:10.740 | that give you joy,

02:27:12.140 | that also makes you more receptive to love in general.

02:27:16.340 | So that has been my approach to love now for quite a while,

02:27:21.340 | that I'm just trying to live my best life

02:27:25.300 | and then the love will come when it comes.

02:27:30.300 | And in terms of romantic love,

02:27:33.580 | it has come and gone in my life.

02:27:35.900 | It's not there now,

02:27:37.100 | but I'm not worried about that.

02:27:42.820 | I'm more worried about, you know,

02:27:44.900 | not worried, but more like trying to just

02:27:47.580 | be a good version of myself.

02:27:50.980 | I cannot always be the best version of myself,

02:27:53.140 | but at least try to be good.

02:27:55.140 | - Yeah, and keep your heart open.

02:27:56.540 | What is this Daniel Johnston song?

02:27:59.380 | "True love will find you in the end."

02:28:01.740 | - No, it may or may not.

02:28:03.180 | But it will only find you if,

02:28:06.220 | oh fuck, how does it go?

02:28:08.420 | If you're looking, so like you have to be open to it.

02:28:10.860 | - Yeah.

02:28:11.700 | - It may or may not.

02:28:12.860 | Yeah, yeah.

02:28:13.700 | And no matter what, you're going to lose it in the end

02:28:15.740 | because it all ends, the whole thing ends.

02:28:18.020 | - Yeah, yeah.

02:28:18.860 | So I don't think stressing over that,

02:28:22.380 | like obviously it's so human

02:28:26.380 | that you can't help it to some degree,

02:28:28.620 | but I feel like stressing over love,

02:28:30.940 | that's the blueprint for whether you're looking

02:28:34.940 | or you're not looking, or you're in a relationship

02:28:39.540 | or marriage or anything, like stressing over it

02:28:42.740 | is like the blueprint for being unhappy.

02:28:46.300 | - Just to clarify confusion I have,

02:28:49.260 | just a quick question, how does the knight move?

02:28:51.940 | - So the knight moves in an L,

02:28:56.980 | and unlike in shogi, it can move both forwards and backwards.

02:29:01.260 | It is quite a nimble piece.

02:29:05.740 | It can jump over everything,

02:29:08.060 | but it's less happy in open position

02:29:10.100 | where it has to move from side to side quickly.

02:29:14.780 | I am generally more of a bishop's guy myself

02:29:18.140 | for the old debate.

02:29:19.500 | I just prefer quality over the intangibles,

02:29:24.420 | but I can appreciate a good knight once in a while.

02:29:28.420 | - Last simple question, what's the meaning of life?

02:29:32.180 | Magnus Carlsen.

02:29:33.660 | - There is obviously no meaning to life.

02:29:36.140 | - Is that obvious?

02:29:37.500 | - I think we're here by accident.

02:29:39.420 | There's no meaning, it ends at some point,

02:29:42.220 | but it's still a great thing.

02:29:43.660 | - You can still have fun even if there's no meaning.

02:29:47.140 | - Yeah, you can still have fun,

02:29:48.220 | you can try and pursue your goals, whatever they may be,

02:29:52.740 | but I'm pretty sure there's no special meaning,

02:29:55.660 | and trying to find it also doesn't make

02:29:59.620 | a whole lot of sense to me.

02:30:01.340 | For me, life is both meaningless and meaningful

02:30:05.700 | for just being here, trying to make,

02:30:09.020 | not necessarily the most of it,

02:30:10.420 | but the things that make you happy,

02:30:13.140 | both short-term and also long-term.

02:30:15.660 | - Yeah, it seems to be full of cool stuff to enjoy.

02:30:18.540 | - It certainly does.

02:30:20.340 | - And one of those is having a conversation

02:30:22.660 | with you, Magnus, it's a huge honor to talk to you.

02:30:25.740 | Thank you so much for spending this time with me.

02:30:28.140 | I can't wait to see what you do in this world,

02:30:29.940 | and thank you for creating so much elegance and beauty

02:30:32.780 | on the chessboard and beyond.

02:30:34.220 | So, thanks for talking today, brother.

02:30:36.140 | - Thank you so much, thanks for having me.

02:30:38.300 | I wanted to say this at the start,

02:30:42.660 | but I never really got the chance.

02:30:44.220 | I was always a bit apprehensive about doing this podcast,

02:30:49.220 | because you are a very smart guy,

02:30:50.900 | and your audience is very smart,

02:30:54.380 | and I always had a bit of imposter syndrome.

02:30:58.980 | So, I'll tell you this now, after the podcast,

02:31:03.500 | so please do judge me, but I hope you've enjoyed it.

02:31:07.660 | - I loved it, you're a brilliant man.

02:31:09.740 | And I love the fact that you have imposter syndrome,

02:31:12.680 | because a lot of us do, and so that's beautiful to see,

02:31:16.480 | even at the very top, you still feel like an imposter.

02:31:20.460 | Thank you, brother, thanks for talking today.

02:31:22.940 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

02:31:24.460 | with Magnus Carlsen.

02:31:25.700 | To support this podcast,

02:31:26.980 | please check out our sponsors in the description.

02:31:29.780 | And now, let me leave you with some words

02:31:31.740 | from Bobby Fischer.

02:31:33.380 | "Chess is a war over the board.

02:31:36.860 | "The object is to crush the opponent's mind."

02:31:39.620 | Thank you for listening, and hope to see you next time.

02:31:43.540 | (upbeat music)

02:31:46.120 | (upbeat music)

02:31:48.700 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Magnus Carlsen: Greatest Chess Player of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #315

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