Whitney Cummings: Comedy, Robotics, Neurology, and Love

00:00:00.000 | The following is a conversation with Whitney Cummings.

00:00:03.640 | She's a stand-up comedian, actor, producer, writer, director,

00:00:07.240 | and recently, finally, the host of her very own podcast

00:00:11.240 | called Good For You.

00:00:12.920 | Her most recent Netflix special called Can I Touch It?

00:00:15.920 | features in part a robot she affectionately

00:00:18.680 | named Bearclaw that is designed to be visually a replica

00:00:22.240 | Whitney.

00:00:23.400 | It's exciting for me to see one of my favorite comedians

00:00:26.000 | explore the social aspects of robotics and AI in our society.

00:00:30.720 | She also has some fascinating ideas

00:00:32.920 | about human behavior, psychology, and urology,

00:00:36.000 | some of which she explores in her book called

00:00:38.120 | I'm Fine and Other Lies.

00:00:41.240 | It was truly a pleasure to meet Whitney

00:00:43.360 | and have this conversation with her,

00:00:45.200 | and even to continue it through text afterwards.

00:00:47.960 | Every once in a while, late at night,

00:00:50.160 | I'll be programming over a cup of coffee

00:00:52.360 | and will get a text from Whitney saying something hilarious.

00:00:55.760 | Or weirder yet, sending a video of Brian Callen

00:00:58.960 | saying something hilarious.

00:01:00.960 | That's when I know the universe has a sense of humor,

00:01:03.880 | and it gifted me with one hell of an amazing journey.

00:01:07.400 | Then I put the phone down and go back

00:01:09.200 | to programming with a stupid, joyful smile on my face.

00:01:13.400 | If you enjoy this conversation, listen to Whitney's podcast,

00:01:16.320 | Good For You, and follow her on Twitter and Instagram.

00:01:19.840 | This is the Artificial Intelligence Podcast.

00:01:22.640 | If you enjoy it, subscribe on YouTube,

00:01:24.840 | give it five stars on Apple Podcasts,

00:01:26.800 | support on Patreon, or simply connect with me on Twitter,

00:01:30.160 | @LexFriedman, spelled F-R-I-D-M-A-N.

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00:03:41.560 | That's ziprecruiter.com/lexpod.

00:03:46.520 | And now, here's my conversation with Whitney Cummings.

00:03:50.640 | I have trouble making eye contact, as you can tell.

00:03:53.760 | - Me too.

00:03:54.600 | Did you know that I had to work on making eye contact

00:03:56.960 | 'cause I used to look here?

00:03:58.880 | Do you see what I'm doing? - That helps, yeah.

00:04:00.360 | - Do you want me to do that?

00:04:01.800 | Well, I'll do this way, I'll cheat the camera.

00:04:03.600 | But I used to do this, and finally people,

00:04:05.760 | like I'd be on dates, and guys would be like,

00:04:07.320 | "Are you looking at my hair?"

00:04:08.920 | It would make people really insecure

00:04:10.900 | because I didn't really get a lot of eye contact as a kid.

00:04:13.200 | It's one to three years.

00:04:14.760 | Did you not get a lot of eye contact as a kid?

00:04:16.440 | - I don't know.

00:04:17.280 | I haven't done the soul searching.

00:04:19.560 | - Right.

00:04:20.400 | - But there's definitely some psychological issues.

00:04:24.200 | - Makes you uncomfortable.

00:04:25.520 | - Yeah, for some reason, when I connect eyes,

00:04:27.880 | I start to think, I assume that you're judging me.

00:04:31.800 | - Oh, well, I am.

00:04:33.320 | That's why you assume that.

00:04:34.800 | We all are.

00:04:36.020 | - All right. - This is perfect.

00:04:36.860 | The podcast would be me and you both

00:04:38.160 | staring at the table the whole time.

00:04:40.200 | (both laughing)

00:04:42.400 | - Do you think robots of the future,

00:04:44.200 | ones with human level intelligence,

00:04:46.000 | will be female, male, genderless,

00:04:49.480 | or another gender we have not yet created as a society?

00:04:53.240 | - You're the expert at this.

00:04:55.240 | - Well, I'm gonna ask you-- - You know the answer.

00:04:57.320 | - I'm gonna ask you questions

00:04:58.680 | that maybe nobody knows the answer to.

00:05:01.000 | - Okay.

00:05:01.960 | - And then I just want you to hypothesize

00:05:04.080 | as a imaginative author, director, comedian,

00:05:09.080 | and just intellectual. - Can we just be very clear

00:05:12.120 | that you know a ton about this

00:05:14.200 | and I know nothing about this,

00:05:15.800 | but I have thought a lot about

00:05:19.600 | what I think robots can fix in our society.

00:05:22.860 | And I mean, I'm a comedian.

00:05:24.400 | It's my job to study human nature,

00:05:27.520 | to make jokes about human nature,

00:05:28.860 | and to sometimes play devil's advocate.

00:05:31.080 | And I just see such a tremendous negativity around robots,

00:05:35.160 | or at least the idea of robots,

00:05:37.000 | that it was like, oh, I'm just gonna take the opposite side

00:05:40.120 | for fun, for jokes, and then I was like,

00:05:43.400 | oh no, I really agree in this devil's advocate argument.

00:05:45.920 | So please correct me when I'm wrong about this stuff.

00:05:49.400 | - So first of all, there's no right and wrong

00:05:51.760 | because we're all, I think most of the people

00:05:54.880 | working on robotics are really not actually even thinking

00:05:57.560 | about some of the big picture things

00:06:00.040 | that you've been exploring.

00:06:01.280 | In fact, your robot, what's her name, by the way?

00:06:04.600 | - Bear Claw. - We'll go with Bear Claw.

00:06:06.200 | (laughing)

00:06:09.840 | What's the genesis of that name, by the way?

00:06:11.680 | - Bear Claw was, I, God, I don't even remember the joke

00:06:15.000 | 'cause I black out after I shoot specials,

00:06:16.640 | but I was writing something about the pet names

00:06:19.160 | that men call women, like Cupcake, Sweetie, Honey,

00:06:22.920 | you know, like, we're always named after desserts

00:06:26.500 | or something, and I was just writing a joke

00:06:29.360 | about if you wanna call us a dessert,

00:06:30.960 | at least pick a cool dessert, you know,

00:06:33.160 | like Bear Claw, like something cool.

00:06:35.640 | So I ended up calling her Bear Claw.

00:06:36.480 | - And she stuck.

00:06:38.240 | So do you think future robots

00:06:42.280 | of greater and greater intelligence

00:06:44.440 | would like to make them female, male?

00:06:46.520 | Would we like to assign them gender?

00:06:48.560 | Or would we like to move away from gender

00:06:50.800 | and say something more ambiguous?

00:06:54.000 | - I think it depends on their purpose, you know?

00:06:56.360 | I feel like if it's a sex robot,

00:06:59.920 | people prefer certain genders, you know?

00:07:01.900 | And I also, you know, when I went down

00:07:03.960 | and explored the robot factory,

00:07:06.300 | I was asking about the type of people

00:07:07.680 | that bought sex robots, and I was very surprised

00:07:11.520 | at the answer, because of course,

00:07:13.400 | the stereotype was it's gonna be a bunch of perverts.

00:07:15.320 | It ended up being a lot of people that were handicapped,

00:07:18.580 | a lot of people with erectile dysfunction,

00:07:20.520 | and a lot of people that were exploring their sexuality.

00:07:23.880 | A lot of people that thought they were gay,

00:07:25.920 | but weren't sure, but didn't wanna take the risk

00:07:28.120 | of trying on someone that could reject them

00:07:31.660 | and being embarrassed, or they were closeted,

00:07:33.880 | or in a city where maybe that's, you know,

00:07:36.340 | taboo and stigmatized, you know?

00:07:37.940 | So I think that a gendered sex robot,

00:07:40.560 | that would serve an important purpose

00:07:42.340 | for someone trying to explore their sexuality.

00:07:44.160 | Am I into men?

00:07:45.000 | Let me try on this thing first.

00:07:46.160 | Am I into women?

00:07:47.000 | Let me try on this thing first.

00:07:48.220 | So I think gendered robots would be important for that,

00:07:51.200 | but I think genderless robots,

00:07:52.460 | in terms of emotional support robots, babysitters,

00:07:56.520 | I'm fine for a genderless babysitter

00:07:58.720 | with my husband in the house.

00:08:00.120 | You know, there are places that I think

00:08:02.080 | that genderless makes a lot of sense,

00:08:04.640 | but obviously not in the sex area.

00:08:07.540 | - What do you mean with your husband in the house?

00:08:09.920 | What's that have to do with the gender of the robot?

00:08:11.820 | - Right, I mean, I don't have a husband,

00:08:13.040 | but hypothetically speaking,

00:08:14.340 | I think every woman's worst nightmare

00:08:15.740 | is like the hot babysitter.

00:08:17.340 | (laughing)

00:08:18.220 | You know what I mean?

00:08:19.260 | So I think that there is a time and place,

00:08:21.700 | I think, for genderless, you know, teachers, doctors,

00:08:25.380 | all that kind of, it would be very awkward

00:08:27.260 | if the first robotic doctor was a guy,

00:08:29.700 | or the first robotic nurse is a woman.

00:08:32.580 | You know, it's sort of, that stuff is so loaded.

00:08:36.120 | I think that genderless could just take

00:08:38.480 | the unnecessary drama out of it,

00:08:43.480 | and possibility to sexualize them,

00:08:46.040 | or be triggered by any of that stuff.

00:08:49.560 | - So there's two components to this, to Bearclaw.

00:08:52.840 | So one is the voice and the talking, and so on,

00:08:55.040 | and then there's the visual appearance.

00:08:56.400 | So on the topic of gender and genderless,

00:08:59.620 | in your experience, what has been the value

00:09:03.200 | of the physical appearance?

00:09:04.920 | So has it added much to the depth of the interaction?

00:09:09.000 | - I mean, mine's kind of an extenuating circumstance,

00:09:11.240 | 'cause she's supposed to look exactly like me.

00:09:13.560 | I mean, I spent six months getting my face molded,

00:09:16.000 | and having, you know, the idea was,

00:09:18.160 | I was exploring the concept of, can robots replace us?

00:09:21.240 | Because that's the big fear,

00:09:22.500 | but also the big dream in a lot of ways,

00:09:24.280 | and I wanted to dig into that area,

00:09:26.780 | because, you know, for a lot of people,

00:09:29.720 | it's like, they're gonna take our jobs,

00:09:30.840 | and they're gonna replace us, legitimate fear,

00:09:33.000 | but then a lot of women I know are like,

00:09:34.360 | I would love for a robot to replace me every now and then,

00:09:37.000 | so it can go to baby showers for me,

00:09:38.920 | and it can pick up my kids at school,

00:09:40.200 | and it can cook dinner, and whatever.

00:09:42.500 | So I just think that was an interesting place to explore,

00:09:45.240 | so her looking like me was a big part of it.

00:09:47.080 | Now her looking like me just adds

00:09:49.120 | an unnecessary level of insecurity,

00:09:51.400 | 'cause I got her a year ago,

00:09:53.560 | and she already looks younger than me,

00:09:54.720 | so that's a weird problem,

00:09:57.660 | but I think that her looking human was the idea,

00:10:00.700 | and I think that where we are now,

00:10:03.100 | please correct me if I'm wrong,

00:10:04.820 | a human robot resembling an actual human you know

00:10:09.820 | is going to feel more realistic than some generic face.

00:10:13.780 | - Well, you're saying that robots that have some familiarity

00:10:18.140 | like look similar to somebody that you actually know,

00:10:22.540 | you'll be able to form a deeper connection with?

00:10:24.580 | - That was the question? - I think so on some level.

00:10:26.020 | - That's an open question, I don't, you know,

00:10:28.820 | it's an interesting--

00:10:30.200 | - Or the opposite, 'cause then you know me,

00:10:32.100 | and you're like, well I know this isn't real,

00:10:33.380 | 'cause you're right here, so maybe it does the opposite.

00:10:36.260 | - We have a very keen eye for human faces,

00:10:39.260 | and they're able to detect strangeness,

00:10:41.860 | especially when it has to do with people

00:10:44.820 | whose faces we've seen a lot of,

00:10:46.420 | so I tend to be a bigger fan

00:10:48.900 | of moving away completely from faces.

00:10:52.820 | - Of recognizable faces?

00:10:54.220 | No, just human faces at all.

00:10:56.020 | - In general, 'cause I think that's where things get dicey,

00:10:58.340 | and one thing I will say is I think my robot

00:11:01.340 | is more realistic than other robots,

00:11:03.060 | not necessarily because you have seen me,

00:11:05.180 | and then you see her, and you go, oh, they're so similar,

00:11:07.620 | but also because human faces are flawed and asymmetrical,

00:11:11.100 | and sometimes we forget when we're making things

00:11:13.460 | that are supposed to look human,

00:11:14.400 | we make them too symmetrical,

00:11:16.020 | and that's what makes them stop looking human,

00:11:17.960 | so because they molded my asymmetrical face,

00:11:20.540 | she just, even if someone didn't know who I was,

00:11:22.860 | I think she'd look more realistic than most generic ones

00:11:26.580 | that didn't have some kind of flaws.

00:11:28.900 | - Got it, yeah.

00:11:29.740 | - 'Cause they start looking creepy

00:11:30.740 | when they're too symmetrical, 'cause human beings aren't.

00:11:33.260 | - Yeah, the flaws is what it means to be human,

00:11:35.740 | so visually as well, but I'm just a fan of the idea

00:11:39.420 | of letting humans use a little bit more imagination,

00:11:43.300 | so just hearing the voice is enough for us humans

00:11:47.580 | to then start imagining the visual appearance

00:11:50.300 | that goes along with that voice,

00:11:52.020 | and you don't necessarily need to work too hard

00:11:54.500 | on creating the actual visual appearance,

00:11:56.900 | so there's some value to that.

00:11:59.140 | When you step into this territory

00:12:00.620 | of actually building a robot that looks like Bear Claw,

00:12:04.300 | it's such a long road of facial expressions,

00:12:07.680 | of sort of making everything smiling, winking,

00:12:12.280 | rolling of the eyes, all that kind of stuff,

00:12:14.900 | it gets really, really tricky.

00:12:16.540 | - It gets tricky, and I think, again, I'm a comedian,

00:12:19.140 | like I'm obsessed with what makes us human,

00:12:21.820 | and our human nature, and the nasty side of human nature

00:12:25.460 | tends to be where I've ended up exploring

00:12:28.060 | over and over again, and I was just mostly fascinated

00:12:31.580 | by people's reactions, so it's my job

00:12:33.340 | to get the biggest reaction from a group of strangers,

00:12:35.640 | the loudest possible reaction, and I just had this instinct,

00:12:39.860 | just when I started building her, and people going,

00:12:42.180 | (gasps)

00:12:43.020 | and people scream, and I mean, I would bring her out

00:12:45.620 | on stage, and people would scream, and I just,

00:12:49.380 | to me, that was the next level of entertainment,

00:12:51.540 | getting a laugh, I've done that, I know how to do that,

00:12:53.540 | I think comedians were always trying to figure out

00:12:54.940 | what the next level is, and comedy's evolving so much,

00:12:57.280 | and Jordan Peele had just done these genius

00:13:00.540 | comedy horror movies, which feel like the next level

00:13:03.060 | of comedy to me, and this sort of funny horror

00:13:08.060 | of a robot was fascinating to me,

00:13:11.660 | but I think the thing that I got the most obsessed with

00:13:15.520 | was people being freaked out and scared of her,

00:13:18.220 | and I started digging around with pathogen avoidance,

00:13:21.660 | and the idea that we've essentially evolved

00:13:24.060 | to be repelled by anything that looks human,

00:13:27.140 | but is off a little bit, anything that could be sick,

00:13:30.340 | or diseased, or dead, essentially,

00:13:32.580 | is our reptilian brain's way to get us

00:13:34.740 | to not try to have sex with it, basically,

00:13:38.340 | you know, so I got really fascinated

00:13:39.940 | by how freaked out and scared, I mean,

00:13:42.140 | I would see grown men get upset,

00:13:44.380 | they're like, get that thing away from me,

00:13:45.220 | like, oh, like, people get angry,

00:13:47.900 | and it was like, you know what this is, you know,

00:13:50.860 | but the sort of like, you know,

00:13:53.340 | amygdala getting activated by something

00:13:55.980 | that to me is just a fun toy said a lot

00:13:59.340 | about our history as a species,

00:14:02.100 | and what got us into trouble thousands of years ago.

00:14:04.780 | - So it's that, it's the deep down stuff

00:14:07.340 | that's in our genetics, but also is it just,

00:14:10.100 | are people freaked out by the fact that there's a robot?

00:14:13.140 | It's not just the appearance,

00:14:14.860 | but that there's an artificial human.

00:14:17.860 | - Anything people I think, and I'm just also fascinated

00:14:21.260 | by the blind spots humans have,

00:14:23.060 | so the idea that you're afraid of that,

00:14:24.740 | I mean, how many robots have killed people?

00:14:27.220 | How many humans have died at the hands of other humans?

00:14:29.780 | - Yeah, a few more. - Millions?

00:14:31.380 | Hundreds of millions?

00:14:32.900 | Yet we're scared of that?

00:14:34.580 | And we'll go to the grocery store

00:14:36.060 | and be around a bunch of humans who statistically,

00:14:38.500 | the chances are much higher

00:14:39.500 | that you're gonna get killed by humans,

00:14:40.700 | so I'm just fascinated by, without judgment,

00:14:43.580 | how irrational we are as a species.

00:14:47.820 | - The worry is the exponential,

00:14:49.260 | so it's, you can say the same thing about nuclear weapons

00:14:52.700 | before we dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki,

00:14:55.740 | so the worry that people have is the exponential growth.

00:14:59.420 | So it's like, oh, it's fun and games right now,

00:15:03.700 | but overnight, especially if a robot

00:15:08.700 | provides value to society, we'll put one in every home,

00:15:11.660 | and then all of a sudden,

00:15:12.780 | lose track of the actual large-scale impact

00:15:16.180 | it has on society, and then all of a sudden,

00:15:18.100 | gain greater and greater control

00:15:20.260 | to where we'll all be, affect our political system

00:15:23.900 | and then affect our decision.

00:15:25.580 | - Didn't robots already ruin our political system?

00:15:27.700 | Didn't that just already happen?

00:15:28.700 | - Which ones?

00:15:29.540 | Oh, Russia hacking. - No offense.

00:15:32.540 | But hasn't that already happened?

00:15:34.980 | I mean, that was like an algorithm

00:15:36.460 | of negative things being clicked on more.

00:15:39.340 | - We'd like to tell stories

00:15:40.780 | and like to demonize certain people.

00:15:43.660 | I think nobody understands our current political system,

00:15:46.860 | our discourse on Twitter, the Twitter mobs.

00:15:49.700 | Nobody has a sense, not Twitter, not Facebook,

00:15:52.580 | the people running it,

00:15:53.420 | nobody understands the impact of these algorithms.

00:15:55.420 | They're trying their best.

00:15:56.900 | Despite what people think,

00:15:57.980 | they're not like a bunch of lefties

00:16:00.260 | trying to make sure that Hillary Clinton gets elected.

00:16:03.260 | It's more that it's an incredibly complex system

00:16:06.860 | that we don't, and that's the worry.

00:16:08.900 | It's so complex and moves so fast

00:16:11.460 | that nobody will be able to stop it once it happens.

00:16:15.780 | - And let me ask a question.

00:16:16.940 | This is a very savage question,

00:16:19.460 | which is, is this just the next stage of evolution?

00:16:23.860 | As humans, some people will die.

00:16:25.660 | Yes, I mean, that's always happened.

00:16:27.460 | This is just taking emotion out of it.

00:16:30.340 | Is this basically the next stage of survival of the fittest?

00:16:34.980 | - Yeah, you have to think of organisms.

00:16:37.780 | You know, what does it mean to be a living organism?

00:16:41.380 | Like, is a smartphone part of your living organism?

00:16:45.660 | - We're in relationships with our phones.

00:16:49.740 | - Yeah, but-- - We have sex through them,

00:16:52.460 | with them, what's the difference

00:16:53.420 | between with them and through them?

00:16:54.460 | - But it also expands your cognitive abilities,

00:16:57.140 | expands your memory, knowledge, and so on,

00:16:59.100 | so you're a much smarter person

00:17:00.660 | because you have a smartphone in your hand.

00:17:02.660 | - But as soon as it's out of my hand,

00:17:04.820 | we've got big problems,

00:17:06.140 | 'cause we become sort of so morphed with them.

00:17:08.420 | - Well, there's a symbiotic relationship,

00:17:09.980 | and that's what, so Elon Musk, the neural link,

00:17:12.580 | is working on trying to increase the bandwidth

00:17:16.700 | of communication between computers and your brain,

00:17:19.340 | and so further and further expand our ability

00:17:22.860 | as human beings to sort of leverage machines,

00:17:26.340 | and maybe that's the future, the evolution,

00:17:29.380 | next evolutionary step.

00:17:30.500 | It could be also that, yes, we'll give birth,

00:17:33.940 | just like we give birth to human children right now,

00:17:36.580 | we'll give birth to AI and they'll replace us.

00:17:38.980 | I think it's a really interesting possibility.

00:17:42.220 | - I'm gonna play devil's advocate.

00:17:44.140 | I just think that the fear of robots is wildly classist,

00:17:48.340 | because, I mean, Facebook, like, it's easy for us to say,

00:17:51.180 | they're taking their data.

00:17:52.020 | Okay, a lot of people that get employment off of Facebook,

00:17:55.740 | they are able to get income off of Facebook.

00:17:58.260 | They don't care if you take their phone numbers

00:17:59.860 | and their emails and their data, as long as it's free.

00:18:01.980 | They don't wanna have to pay $5 a month for Facebook.

00:18:03.980 | Facebook is a wildly democratic thing.

00:18:05.860 | Forget about the election and all that kind of stuff.

00:18:08.300 | A lot of technology making people's lives easier,

00:18:12.540 | I find that most elite people are more scared

00:18:17.180 | than lower-income people, and women, for the most part.

00:18:21.260 | So the idea of something that's stronger than us

00:18:24.020 | and that might eventually kill us,

00:18:25.260 | women are used to that.

00:18:26.460 | Like, that's not, I see a lot of really rich men

00:18:29.940 | being like, "The robots are gonna kill us."

00:18:31.180 | We're like, "What's another thing that's gonna kill us?"

00:18:33.700 | I tend to see, like, "Oh, something can walk me

00:18:36.180 | to my car at night.

00:18:37.180 | Something can help me cook dinner."

00:18:38.780 | For people in underprivileged countries

00:18:42.940 | who can't afford eye surgery, like, in a robot,

00:18:45.260 | can we send a robot to underprivileged places

00:18:48.740 | to do surgery where they can't?

00:18:50.580 | I work with this organization called Operation Smile

00:18:53.460 | where they do cleft palate surgeries,

00:18:55.580 | and there's a lot of places that can't do

00:18:56.900 | a very simple surgery because they can't afford doctors

00:19:00.340 | and medical care and such.

00:19:01.380 | So I just see, and this can be completely naive

00:19:04.740 | and should be completely wrong,

00:19:05.740 | but I feel like a lot of people are going like,

00:19:08.620 | "The robots are gonna destroy us."

00:19:09.860 | Humans, we're destroying ourselves.

00:19:11.540 | We're self-destructing.

00:19:12.740 | Robots, to me, are the only hope to clean up

00:19:14.620 | all the messes that we've created.

00:19:15.860 | Even when we go try to clean up pollution in the ocean,

00:19:18.140 | we make it worse because of the oil that the tankers use.

00:19:21.620 | It's like, to me, robots are the only solution.

00:19:25.420 | Firefighters are heroes, but they're limited

00:19:27.900 | in how many times they can run into a fire.

00:19:30.180 | So there's just something interesting to me.

00:19:32.340 | I'm not hearing a lot of lower-income,

00:19:36.140 | more vulnerable populations talking about robots.

00:19:39.940 | - Maybe you can speak to it a little bit more.

00:19:42.020 | There's an idea, I think you've expressed it,

00:19:44.100 | I've heard actually a few female writers and robotists

00:19:49.100 | have talked to express this idea that exactly you just said,

00:19:54.100 | which is, it just seems that being afraid

00:19:59.500 | of existential threats of artificial intelligence

00:20:03.100 | is a male issue.

00:20:06.260 | - Yeah.

00:20:07.100 | - And I wonder what that is.

00:20:09.580 | Because men in certain positions, like you said,

00:20:14.060 | it's also a classist issue.

00:20:15.620 | They haven't been humbled by life,

00:20:17.420 | and so you always look for the biggest problems

00:20:20.660 | to take on around you.

00:20:22.380 | - It's a champagne problem to be afraid of robots.

00:20:24.220 | Most people don't have health insurance,

00:20:26.460 | they're afraid they're not gonna be able to feed their kids,

00:20:28.220 | they can't afford a tutor for their kids.

00:20:30.020 | I mean, I just think of the way I grew up,

00:20:32.380 | and I had a mother who worked two jobs, had kids.

00:20:36.180 | We couldn't afford an SAT tutor.

00:20:37.820 | The idea of a robot coming in,

00:20:40.060 | being able to tutor your kids,

00:20:41.060 | being able to provide childcare for your kids,

00:20:43.540 | being able to come in with cameras for eyes

00:20:45.540 | and make sure surveillance.

00:20:48.340 | I'm very pro-surveillance,

00:20:49.820 | because I've had security problems,

00:20:52.300 | and I've been, we're generally in a little more danger

00:20:55.780 | than you guys are.

00:20:56.620 | So I think that robots are a little less scary to us,

00:20:58.620 | 'cause we can see them maybe as free assistance,

00:21:01.260 | help, and protection.

00:21:03.420 | And then there's sort of another element for me personally,

00:21:06.860 | which is maybe more of a female problem.

00:21:08.820 | I don't know, I'm just gonna make a generalization.

00:21:11.660 | Happy to be wrong.

00:21:13.100 | But the emotional sort of component of robots

00:21:18.100 | and what they can provide in terms of,

00:21:21.220 | I think there's a lot of people

00:21:23.740 | that don't have microphones

00:21:25.700 | that I just recently kind of stumbled upon

00:21:28.620 | in doing all my research on the sex robots

00:21:30.980 | for my standup special,

00:21:31.980 | which is there's a lot of very shy people

00:21:34.900 | that aren't good at dating.

00:21:35.900 | There's a lot of people who are scared of human beings,

00:21:37.940 | who have personality disorders,

00:21:40.580 | or grew up in alcoholic homes,

00:21:42.140 | or struggle with addiction, or whatever it is

00:21:44.380 | where a robot can solve an emotional problem.

00:21:47.020 | And so we're largely having this conversation

00:21:49.900 | about rich guys that are emotionally healthy

00:21:53.700 | and how scared of robots they are.

00:21:55.660 | We're forgetting about a huge part of the population

00:21:58.620 | who maybe isn't as charming and effervescent

00:22:01.660 | and solvent as people like you and Elon Musk,

00:22:05.500 | who these robots could solve very real problems

00:22:09.300 | in their life, emotional or financial.

00:22:11.300 | - Well, that's in general a really interesting idea

00:22:13.500 | that most people in the world don't have a voice.

00:22:16.260 | You've talked about it,

00:22:18.620 | even the people on Twitter

00:22:19.980 | who are driving the conversation.

00:22:22.820 | You said comments, people who leave comments

00:22:25.420 | represent a very tiny percent of the population.

00:22:28.260 | And they're the ones,

00:22:29.580 | we tend to think they speak for the population,

00:22:33.340 | but it's very possible on many topics they don't at all.

00:22:37.300 | And look, and I'm sure there's gotta be some kind of

00:22:40.660 | legal sort of structure in place

00:22:43.980 | for when the robots happen.

00:22:45.300 | You know way more about this than I do,

00:22:46.660 | but for me to just go, the robots are bad,

00:22:49.780 | that's a wild generalization

00:22:51.260 | that I feel like is really inhumane in some way.

00:22:54.460 | Just after the research I've done,

00:22:56.700 | you're gonna tell me that a man whose wife died suddenly

00:23:00.100 | and he feels guilty moving on with a human woman

00:23:02.980 | or can't get over the grief,

00:23:04.340 | he can't have a sex robot in his own house?

00:23:06.980 | Why not?

00:23:07.860 | Who cares?

00:23:08.820 | Why do you care?

00:23:09.980 | - Well, there's an interesting aspect of human nature.

00:23:12.700 | So, you know, we tend to as a civilization

00:23:16.820 | to create a group that's the other in all kinds of ways.

00:23:19.940 | - Right.

00:23:20.780 | - And so you work with animals too.

00:23:23.500 | You're especially sensitive to the suffering of animals.

00:23:26.540 | Let me kind of ask,

00:23:27.660 | what's your,

00:23:28.540 | do you think we'll abuse robots in the future?

00:23:34.260 | Do you think some of the darker aspects of human nature

00:23:36.620 | will come out?

00:23:37.980 | - I think some people will,

00:23:39.220 | but if we design them properly,

00:23:41.820 | the people that do it,

00:23:43.020 | we can put it on a record and they can,

00:23:46.060 | we can put them in jail.

00:23:46.940 | We can find sociopaths more easily.

00:23:48.900 | You know, like--

00:23:49.740 | - But why is that a sociopathic thing to harm a robot?

00:23:53.220 | - I think, look, I don't know enough

00:23:55.260 | about the consciousness and stuff as you do.

00:23:57.940 | I guess it would have to be when they're conscious,

00:23:59.900 | but it is, you know, the part of the brain

00:24:02.900 | that is responsible for compassion,

00:24:04.460 | the frontal lobe or whatever,

00:24:05.300 | like people that abuse animals also abuse humans

00:24:08.220 | and commit other kinds of crimes.

00:24:09.460 | Like that's, it's all the same part of the brain.

00:24:11.140 | No one abuses animals and then is like awesome

00:24:14.060 | to women and children and awesome to underprivileged,

00:24:17.420 | you know, minorities.

00:24:18.660 | Like it's all, so, you know,

00:24:20.540 | we've been working really hard to put a database together

00:24:23.060 | of all the people that have abused animals.

00:24:24.820 | So when they commit another crime,

00:24:25.980 | you go, okay, this is, you know, it's all the same stuff.

00:24:29.380 | And I think people probably think I'm nuts

00:24:32.420 | for the, a lot of the animal work I do,

00:24:34.820 | but because when animal abuse is present,

00:24:37.100 | another crime is always present,

00:24:38.900 | but the animal abuse is the most socially acceptable.

00:24:40.900 | You can kick a dog and there's nothing people can do,

00:24:43.940 | but then what they're doing behind closed doors,

00:24:46.620 | you can't see.

00:24:47.440 | So there's always something else going on,

00:24:48.900 | which is why I never feel compunction about it.

00:24:50.720 | But I do think we'll start seeing the same thing

00:24:52.420 | with robots.

00:24:53.380 | The person that kicks the,

00:24:55.540 | I felt compassion when the kicking the dog robot

00:24:59.760 | really pissed me off.

00:25:00.860 | I know that they're just trying to get the stability right

00:25:04.140 | and all that,

00:25:05.220 | but I do think there will come a time

00:25:07.380 | where that will be a great way to be able to figure out

00:25:10.740 | if somebody has like, you know, anti-social behaviors.

00:25:15.500 | - You kind of mentioned surveillance.

00:25:18.100 | It's also a really interesting idea of yours

00:25:20.020 | that you just said, you know,

00:25:21.540 | a lot of people seem to be really uncomfortable

00:25:23.420 | with surveillance.

00:25:24.300 | - Yeah.

00:25:25.180 | - And you just said that, you know what, for me,

00:25:28.540 | you know, there's positives for surveillance.

00:25:31.220 | - I think people behave better

00:25:32.200 | when they know they're being watched.

00:25:33.300 | And I know this is a very unpopular opinion.

00:25:36.020 | I'm talking about it on stage right now.

00:25:38.140 | We behave better when we know we're being watched.

00:25:40.380 | You and I had a very different conversation

00:25:41.980 | before we were recording.

00:25:43.220 | (laughing)

00:25:44.580 | We behave different.

00:25:45.460 | You sit up and you are in your best behavior

00:25:47.540 | and I'm trying to sound eloquent

00:25:49.380 | and I'm trying to not hurt anyone's feelings.

00:25:51.180 | And I mean, I have a camera right there.

00:25:52.900 | I'm behaving totally different

00:25:54.680 | than when we first started talking, you know?

00:25:56.980 | When you know there's a camera, you behave differently.

00:25:59.420 | I mean, there's cameras all over LA at stoplights

00:26:02.740 | so that people don't run stoplights,

00:26:04.060 | but there's not even film in it.

00:26:05.860 | They don't even use them anymore, but it works.

00:26:08.020 | - It works.

00:26:08.860 | - Right?

00:26:09.700 | And I'm, you know, working on this thing

00:26:10.980 | in standabout surveillance.

00:26:12.000 | It's like, that's why we invented Santa Claus.

00:26:14.260 | You know, Santa Claus is the first surveillance, basically.

00:26:17.820 | All we had to say to kids is he's making a list

00:26:20.420 | and he's watching you and they behave better.

00:26:22.940 | - That's brilliant.

00:26:23.780 | - You know, so I do think that there are benefits

00:26:26.140 | to surveillance.

00:26:27.420 | You know, I think we all do sketchy things in private

00:26:30.940 | and we all have watched weird porn or Googled weird things

00:26:34.500 | and we don't want people to know about it,

00:26:37.060 | our secret lives.

00:26:37.940 | So I do think that obviously,

00:26:40.220 | we should be able to have a modicum of privacy,

00:26:42.860 | but I tend to think that people that are the most negative

00:26:46.660 | about surveillance have the most secrets.

00:26:48.300 | - The most hype.

00:26:49.140 | (laughing)

00:26:50.540 | Well, you should, you're saying you're doing bits on it now?

00:26:54.580 | - Well, I'm just talking in general about, you know,

00:26:57.020 | privacy and surveillance and how paranoid

00:26:59.340 | we're kind of becoming and how, you know,

00:27:02.500 | I mean, it's just wild to me that people are like,

00:27:04.940 | our emails are gonna leak

00:27:05.940 | and they're taking our phone numbers.

00:27:07.220 | Like there used to be a book full of phone numbers

00:27:11.460 | and addresses that were, they just throw it at your door.

00:27:15.580 | And we all had a book of everyone's numbers, you know,

00:27:18.420 | this is a very new thing.

00:27:20.380 | And, you know, I know our amygdala is designed

00:27:22.380 | to compound sort of threats and, you know,

00:27:25.380 | there's stories about, and I think we all just glom on

00:27:29.300 | in a very, you know, tribal way of,

00:27:31.420 | yeah, they're taking our data.

00:27:32.420 | Like, we don't even know what that means,

00:27:33.740 | but we're like, well, yeah, they, they, you know?

00:27:37.100 | So I just think that sometimes it's like, okay, well,

00:27:39.740 | so what, they're gonna sell your data?

00:27:41.340 | Who cares?

00:27:42.180 | Why do you care?

00:27:43.220 | - First of all, that bit will kill in China.

00:27:46.240 | So, and I say this sort of only a little bit joking

00:27:51.100 | because a lot of people in China, including the citizens,

00:27:55.220 | despite what people in the West think of as abuse,

00:27:59.660 | are actually in support of the idea of surveillance.

00:28:02.580 | Sort of, they're not in support of the abuse of surveillance

00:28:06.500 | but they're, they like, I mean, the idea of surveillance

00:28:09.420 | is kind of like the idea of government.

00:28:13.540 | Like you said, we behave differently.

00:28:15.940 | And in a way, it's almost like why we like sports.

00:28:18.520 | There's rules and within the constraints of the rules,

00:28:22.380 | this is a more stable society.

00:28:25.040 | And they make good arguments about success,

00:28:28.140 | being able to build successful companies,

00:28:30.460 | being able to build successful social lives

00:28:32.780 | around a fabric that's more stable.

00:28:34.540 | When you have a surveillance, it keeps the criminals away,

00:28:37.060 | keeps abusive animals, whatever the values of the society,

00:28:41.860 | with surveillance, you can enforce those values better.

00:28:44.780 | - And here's what I will say.

00:28:45.900 | There's a lot of unethical things

00:28:47.300 | happening with surveillance.

00:28:48.580 | Like I feel the need to really make that very clear.

00:28:52.100 | I mean, the fact that Google is like collecting

00:28:54.100 | if people's hands start moving on the mouse

00:28:55.980 | to find out if they're getting Parkinson's

00:28:58.460 | and then their insurance goes up,

00:29:00.080 | like that is completely unethical and wrong.

00:29:02.180 | And I think stuff like that,

00:29:03.340 | we have to really be careful around.

00:29:05.860 | So the idea of using our data to raise our insurance rates

00:29:08.660 | or, you know, I heard that they're looking,

00:29:10.820 | they can sort of predict if you're gonna have depression

00:29:13.300 | based on your selfies by detecting micro muscles

00:29:16.100 | in your face, you know, all that kind of stuff.

00:29:18.260 | That is a nightmare, not okay.

00:29:20.020 | But I think, you know, we have to delineate

00:29:22.380 | what's a real threat and what's getting spam

00:29:25.180 | in your email box, that's not what to spend

00:29:27.420 | your time and energy on.

00:29:28.620 | Focus on the fact that every time you buy cigarettes,

00:29:31.100 | your insurance is going up without you knowing about it.

00:29:35.260 | - On the topic of animals too,

00:29:36.980 | can we just linger on it a little bit?

00:29:38.380 | Like, what do you think,

00:29:40.340 | what does it say about our society,

00:29:43.400 | of the society wide abuse of animals

00:29:45.700 | that we see in general?

00:29:47.220 | Sort of factory farming, just in general,

00:29:49.420 | just the way we treat animals of different categories.

00:29:53.780 | Like, what do you think of that?

00:29:56.980 | What does a better world look like?

00:29:59.820 | What should people think about it in general?

00:30:03.660 | - I think the most interesting thing

00:30:06.460 | I can probably say around this,

00:30:07.860 | that's the least emotional,

00:30:09.500 | 'cause I'm actually a very non-emotional animal person

00:30:11.860 | because it's, I think everyone's an animal person.

00:30:14.060 | It's just a matter of if it's yours

00:30:15.880 | or if you've, you know, been conditioned to go numb.

00:30:18.480 | You know, I think it's really a testament

00:30:20.820 | to what as a species we are able to be in denial about,

00:30:24.580 | mass denial and mass delusion,

00:30:26.300 | and how we're able to dehumanize and debase groups,

00:30:30.620 | you know, World War II,

00:30:33.420 | in a way in order to conform

00:30:36.780 | and find protection in the conforming.

00:30:38.860 | So we are also a species who used to go to coliseums

00:30:43.860 | and watch elephants and tigers fight to the death.

00:30:47.540 | We used to watch human beings be pulled apart

00:30:50.300 | in the, that wasn't that long ago.

00:30:53.060 | We're also a species who had slaves,

00:30:56.860 | and it was socially acceptable by a lot of people.

00:30:59.020 | People didn't see anything wrong with it.

00:31:00.160 | So we're a species that is able to go numb

00:31:02.660 | and that is able to dehumanize very quickly

00:31:05.940 | and make it the norm.

00:31:08.120 | Child labor wasn't that long ago.

00:31:10.420 | Like the idea that now we look back and go,

00:31:12.620 | "Oh yeah, kids were losing fingers in factories,

00:31:15.900 | "making shoes."

00:31:17.180 | Like someone had to come in and make that, you know,

00:31:20.160 | so I think it just says a lot about the fact that,

00:31:23.180 | you know, we are animals and we are self-serving

00:31:25.300 | and one of the most successful,

00:31:27.260 | the most successful species

00:31:29.180 | because we are able to debase and degrade

00:31:33.140 | and essentially exploit anything that benefits us.

00:31:36.840 | I think the pendulum's gonna swing as being lately.

00:31:39.980 | - Which way?

00:31:40.820 | - Like I think we're Rome now, kind of.

00:31:42.580 | Like I think we're on the verge of collapse

00:31:44.980 | because we are dopamine receptors.

00:31:47.240 | Like we are just, I think we're all kind of addicts

00:31:49.560 | when it comes to this stuff.

00:31:50.520 | Like we don't know when to stop.

00:31:53.380 | It's always the buffet.

00:31:54.480 | Like we're, the thing that used to keep us alive,

00:31:56.600 | which is killing animals and eating them,

00:31:58.380 | now killing animals and eating them

00:31:59.740 | is what's killing us in a way.

00:32:01.220 | So it's like we just can't, we don't know when to call it

00:32:04.220 | and we don't, moderation is not really something

00:32:06.560 | that humans have evolved to have yet.

00:32:10.040 | So I think it's really just a flaw in our wiring.

00:32:13.620 | - Do you think we'll look back at this time

00:32:15.240 | as our society's being deeply unethical?

00:32:19.380 | - Yeah, yeah.

00:32:20.520 | I think we'll be embarrassed.

00:32:22.240 | - Which are the worst parts right now going on?

00:32:24.860 | Is it-- - In terms of animal?

00:32:26.120 | Well, I think-- - No, in terms of anything.

00:32:27.780 | What's the unethical thing?

00:32:29.800 | It's very hard to take a step out of it,

00:32:32.020 | but you just said we used to watch, you know,

00:32:36.180 | there's been a lot of cruelty throughout history.

00:32:40.400 | What's the cruelty going on now?

00:32:42.080 | - I think it's gonna be pigs.

00:32:44.180 | I think it's gonna be, I mean,

00:32:45.480 | pigs are one of the most emotionally intelligent animals.

00:32:48.660 | And they have the intelligence of like a three-year-old.

00:32:51.640 | And I think we'll look back and be really,

00:32:54.280 | they use tools.

00:32:55.120 | I mean, I think we have this narrative

00:32:58.400 | that they're pigs and they're pigs

00:32:59.720 | and they're disgusting and they're dirty

00:33:01.840 | and their bacon is so good.

00:33:02.840 | I think that we'll look back one day

00:33:04.200 | and be really embarrassed about that.

00:33:06.620 | - Is this for just, what's it called, the factory farming?

00:33:10.300 | So basically mass-- - 'Cause we don't see it.

00:33:12.520 | If you saw, I mean, we do have,

00:33:14.520 | I mean, this is probably an evolutionary advantage.

00:33:17.560 | We do have the ability to completely

00:33:20.360 | pretend something's not,

00:33:21.480 | something that is so horrific that it overwhelms us.

00:33:24.000 | And we're able to essentially deny that it's happening.

00:33:27.520 | I think if people were to see

00:33:28.640 | what goes on in factory farming,

00:33:30.440 | and also we're really to take in how bad it is for us,

00:33:35.320 | you know, we're hurting ourselves first and foremost

00:33:37.120 | with what we eat.

00:33:38.400 | But that's also a very elitist argument, you know?

00:33:41.240 | It's a luxury to be able to complain about meat.

00:33:44.580 | It's a luxury to be able to not eat meat.

00:33:46.640 | You know, there's very few people because of, you know,

00:33:49.960 | how the corporations have set up meat being cheap.

00:33:53.320 | You know, it's $2 to buy a Big Mac,

00:33:55.280 | it's $10 to buy a healthy meal.

00:33:57.620 | You know, that's, I think a lot of people

00:34:00.000 | don't have the luxury to even think that way.

00:34:02.260 | But I do think that animals in captivity,

00:34:04.200 | I think we're gonna look back

00:34:05.040 | and be pretty grossed out about.

00:34:06.480 | Mammals in captivity, whales, dolphins.

00:34:08.760 | I mean, that's already starting to dismantle.

00:34:10.160 | Circuses, we're gonna be pretty embarrassed about.

00:34:13.980 | But I think it's really more a testament

00:34:15.720 | to, you know, there's just such a ability to go like,

00:34:20.720 | that thing is different than me and we're better.

00:34:25.520 | It's the ego.

00:34:26.360 | I mean, it's just, we have the species

00:34:27.560 | with the biggest ego, ultimately.

00:34:29.160 | - Well, that's what I think, that's my hope for robots

00:34:31.840 | is they'll, you mentioned consciousness before.

00:34:34.200 | Nobody knows what consciousness is.

00:34:37.600 | But I'm hoping robots will help us empathize

00:34:42.200 | and understand that there's other creatures

00:34:47.200 | out besides ourselves that can suffer,

00:34:50.360 | that can experience the world

00:34:54.840 | and that we can torture by our actions.

00:34:57.720 | And robots can explicitly teach us that,

00:34:59.920 | I think, better than animals can.

00:35:01.520 | - I have never seen such compassion

00:35:06.520 | from a lot of people in my life

00:35:11.080 | toward any human, animal, child,

00:35:13.880 | as I have a lot of people

00:35:15.240 | in the way they interact with the robot.

00:35:16.840 | 'Cause I think there's-- - Compassion, for sure.

00:35:18.480 | - I think there's something of,

00:35:20.000 | I mean, I was on the robot owners chat boards

00:35:23.760 | for a good eight months.

00:35:26.160 | And the main emotional benefit is

00:35:28.360 | she's never gonna cheat on you.

00:35:30.600 | She's never gonna hurt you.

00:35:32.160 | She's never gonna lie to you.

00:35:33.360 | She doesn't judge you.

00:35:35.020 | You know, I think that robots help people,

00:35:38.740 | and this is part of the work I do with animals.

00:35:40.880 | Like I do equine therapy and train dogs and stuff

00:35:43.040 | because there is this safe space to be authentic.

00:35:46.280 | You're with this being that doesn't care

00:35:48.240 | what you do for a living,

00:35:49.080 | doesn't care how much money you have,

00:35:50.400 | doesn't care who you're dating,

00:35:51.540 | doesn't care what you look like,

00:35:52.440 | doesn't care if you have cellulite, whatever.

00:35:54.560 | You feel safe to be able to truly be present

00:35:57.960 | without being defensive and worrying about eye contact

00:36:00.160 | and being triggered by needing to be perfect

00:36:02.920 | and fear of judgment and all that.

00:36:04.840 | And robots really can't judge you yet,

00:36:07.320 | but they can't judge you.

00:36:09.320 | But I think it really puts people at ease

00:36:13.480 | and at their most authentic.

00:36:15.320 | - Do you think you can have a deep connection

00:36:18.720 | with a robot that's not judging?

00:36:22.040 | Do you think you can really have a relationship

00:36:25.440 | with a robot or a human being that's a safe space?

00:36:30.000 | Or is attention, mystery, danger necessary

00:36:34.320 | for a deep connection?

00:36:36.000 | - I'm gonna speak for myself and say that

00:36:38.640 | I grew up in Alcoa, Colombo.

00:36:40.120 | I identify as a codependent,

00:36:41.440 | talked about this stuff before,

00:36:43.280 | but for me, it's very hard to be in a relationship

00:36:45.360 | with a human being without feeling like

00:36:47.600 | I need to perform in some way or deliver in some way.

00:36:50.760 | And I don't know if that's just the people

00:36:51.920 | I've been in a relationship with or me or my brokenness,

00:36:56.520 | but I do think this is gonna sound really negative

00:37:01.320 | and pessimistic, but I do think a lot of our relationships

00:37:06.400 | are a projection and a lot of our relationships

00:37:08.360 | are performance, and I don't think I really understood that

00:37:12.280 | until I worked with horses.

00:37:15.280 | And most communications with human is nonverbal, right?

00:37:18.080 | I can say, "I love you," but you don't think I love you.

00:37:22.000 | Whereas with animals, it's very direct.

00:37:24.280 | It's all physical, it's all energy.

00:37:26.840 | I feel like that with robots, too.

00:37:28.520 | It feels very...

00:37:29.960 | How I say something doesn't matter.

00:37:35.280 | My inflection doesn't really matter.

00:37:36.920 | And you thinking that my tone is disrespectful,

00:37:40.280 | like you're not filtering it through all

00:37:42.160 | of the bad relationships you've been in.

00:37:43.800 | You're not filtering it through

00:37:44.840 | the way your mom talked to you.

00:37:45.880 | You're not getting triggered.

00:37:47.760 | I find that for the most part,

00:37:49.400 | people don't always receive things

00:37:51.000 | the way that you intend them to or the way intended,

00:37:53.640 | and that makes relationships really murky.

00:37:56.120 | - So the relationships with animals

00:37:57.440 | and relationship with the robots as they are now,

00:38:00.680 | you kind of implied that that's more healthy.

00:38:05.240 | Can you have a healthy relationship with other humans?

00:38:08.080 | Or not healthy, I don't like that word,

00:38:10.120 | but shouldn't it be, you've talked about codependency.

00:38:14.440 | Maybe you can talk about what is codependency,

00:38:16.640 | but is the challenges of that,

00:38:21.640 | the complexity of that necessary for passion,

00:38:24.640 | for love between humans?

00:38:27.360 | - That's right, you love passion.

00:38:29.560 | (laughing)

00:38:31.240 | That's a good thing.

00:38:32.080 | - I thought this would be a safe space.

00:38:34.000 | (laughing)

00:38:36.240 | I got trolled by Rogan for hours on this.

00:38:40.080 | - Look, I am not anti-passion.

00:38:42.680 | I think that I've just maybe been around long enough

00:38:45.360 | to know that sometimes it's ephemeral

00:38:48.320 | and that passion is a mixture

00:38:53.040 | of a lot of different things.

00:38:55.440 | Adrenaline, which turns into dopamine, cortisol.

00:38:57.720 | It's a lot of neurochemicals.

00:38:59.200 | It's a lot of projection.

00:39:01.240 | It's a lot of what we've seen in movies.

00:39:03.280 | It's a lot of, I identify as an addict.

00:39:06.240 | So for me, sometimes passion is like,

00:39:08.640 | uh-oh, this could be bad.

00:39:10.200 | And I think we've been so conditioned to believe

00:39:11.600 | that passion means your soulmates.

00:39:13.160 | And I mean, how many times have you had

00:39:14.400 | a passionate connection with someone

00:39:15.680 | and then it was a total train wreck?

00:39:17.840 | - The train wreck is interesting.

00:39:19.840 | - How many times exactly?

00:39:21.160 | - Exactly.

00:39:22.000 | What's a train wreck?

00:39:22.840 | - You just did a lot of math in your head

00:39:24.480 | in that little moment.

00:39:25.520 | - Counting.

00:39:26.560 | I mean, what's a train wreck?

00:39:28.640 | What's a, why is obsession,

00:39:31.560 | so you describe this codependency

00:39:33.680 | and sort of the idea of attachment,

00:39:37.480 | over attachment to people who don't deserve

00:39:40.360 | that kind of attachment as somehow a bad thing.

00:39:44.600 | I think our society says it's a bad thing.

00:39:47.800 | It probably is a bad thing.

00:39:49.680 | Like a delicious burger is a bad thing.

00:39:52.640 | I don't know.

00:39:53.480 | - Right, oh, that's a good point.

00:39:54.360 | I think that you're pointing out something

00:39:55.640 | really fascinating, which is like passion,

00:39:57.280 | if you go into it knowing this is like pizza

00:40:00.280 | where it's gonna be delicious for two hours

00:40:01.920 | and then I don't have to have it again for three.

00:40:03.480 | If you can have a choice in the passion,

00:40:06.440 | I define passion as something

00:40:07.600 | that is relatively unmanageable

00:40:09.600 | and something you can't control

00:40:10.880 | or stop and start with your own volition.

00:40:13.760 | So maybe we're operating under different definitions.

00:40:16.360 | If passion is something that like,

00:40:17.960 | you know, ruins your marriages

00:40:21.000 | and screws up your professional life

00:40:23.240 | and becomes this thing that you're not in control of

00:40:27.360 | and becomes addictive, I think that's the difference

00:40:29.920 | is is it a choice or is it not a choice?

00:40:32.640 | And if it is a choice, then passion's great.

00:40:35.160 | But if it's something that like consumes you

00:40:37.400 | and makes you start making bad decisions

00:40:39.400 | and clouds your frontal lobe

00:40:41.200 | and is just all about dopamine

00:40:44.080 | and not really about the person

00:40:46.240 | and more about the neurochemical,

00:40:47.840 | we call it sort of the drug, the internal drug cabinet.

00:40:50.800 | If it's all just you're on drugs, that's different,

00:40:53.000 | you know, 'cause sometimes you're just on drugs.

00:40:55.040 | - Okay, so there's a philosophical question here.

00:40:58.520 | So would you rather, and it's interesting for a comedian,

00:41:03.440 | brilliant comedian to speak so eloquently

00:41:07.640 | about a balanced life.

00:41:09.560 | I kind of argue against this point.

00:41:12.100 | There's such an obsession

00:41:13.080 | of creating this healthy lifestyle now,

00:41:15.580 | psychologically speaking.

00:41:18.160 | You know, I'm a fan of the idea

00:41:19.760 | that you sort of fly high and you crash and die at 27

00:41:24.760 | as also a possible life,

00:41:26.520 | and it's not one we should judge

00:41:28.000 | because I think there's moments of greatness.

00:41:30.680 | I've talked to Olympic athletes

00:41:32.160 | where some of their greatest moments

00:41:34.320 | are achieved in their early 20s,

00:41:36.600 | and the rest of their life is in a kind of fog

00:41:39.880 | of almost of a depression because they can never--

00:41:42.320 | - Because it was based on their physical prowess, right?

00:41:44.280 | - Physical prowess, and they'll never,

00:41:46.440 | so that, so they're watching their physical prowess fade,

00:41:50.260 | and they'll never achieve the kind of height,

00:41:54.720 | not just physical, of just emotion,

00:41:57.220 | of-- - Well, the max number

00:41:59.720 | of neurochemicals, and you also put your money

00:42:03.200 | on the wrong horse.

00:42:04.760 | That's where I would just go like,

00:42:06.520 | oh, yeah, if you're doing a job where you peak at 22,

00:42:10.260 | the rest of your life is gonna be hard.

00:42:12.440 | - That idea is considering the notion

00:42:15.280 | that you wanna optimize some kind of,

00:42:17.620 | but we're all gonna die soon.

00:42:19.440 | - What?

00:42:20.280 | (laughing)

00:42:22.000 | Now you tell me.

00:42:23.400 | I've immortalized myself, so I'm gonna be fine.

00:42:26.920 | - See, you're almost like, how many Oscar-winning movies

00:42:30.440 | can I direct by the time I'm 100?

00:42:34.160 | How many this and that?

00:42:35.880 | But there's, life is short, relatively speaking.

00:42:40.880 | - I know, but it can also come in different,

00:42:42.680 | you go, life is short, play hard,

00:42:45.200 | fall in love as much as you can, run into walls.

00:42:47.720 | I would also go, life is short, don't deplete yourself

00:42:51.360 | on things that aren't sustainable and that you can't keep.

00:42:55.800 | - Yeah.

00:42:56.640 | - So I think everyone gets dopamine from different places,

00:42:59.840 | everyone has meaning from different places.

00:43:01.840 | I look at the fleeting, passionate relationships

00:43:04.640 | I've had in the past, and I don't have pride in them.

00:43:08.000 | I think that you have to decide

00:43:09.120 | what helps you sleep at night.

00:43:11.240 | For me, it's pride and feeling like I behave

00:43:13.600 | with grace and integrity, that's just me personally.

00:43:16.160 | Everyone can go like, yeah, I slept with all the hot chicks

00:43:19.760 | in Italy, I could, and I did all the whatever,

00:43:23.560 | like whatever you value.

00:43:25.160 | We're allowed to value different things.

00:43:26.720 | - We're talking about Brian Callan.

00:43:28.080 | (laughing)

00:43:29.800 | - Brian Callan has lived his life to the fullest,

00:43:32.640 | to say the least, but I think that it's just

00:43:34.600 | for me personally, I, and this could be like my workaholism

00:43:38.920 | or my achievementism, if I don't have something

00:43:43.680 | to show for something, I feel like it's a waste of time

00:43:47.960 | or some kind of loss.

00:43:50.360 | I'm in a 12-step program, and the third step would say,

00:43:52.680 | there's no such thing as waste of time

00:43:54.200 | and everything happens exactly as it should

00:43:56.880 | and whatever, that's a way to just sort of keep us sane

00:43:59.560 | so we don't grieve too much and beat ourselves up

00:44:01.880 | over past mistakes, there's no such thing as mistakes,

00:44:04.720 | da-da-da, but I think passion is,

00:44:08.400 | I think it's so life-affirming and one of the few things

00:44:11.760 | that maybe people like us, makes us feel awake and seen

00:44:14.920 | and we just have such a high threshold for adrenaline.

00:44:19.920 | You know, I mean, you are a fighter, right?

00:44:22.800 | Yeah, okay, so yeah, so you have a very high tolerance

00:44:27.520 | for adrenaline, and I think that Olympic athletes,

00:44:30.440 | the amount of adrenaline they get from performing,

00:44:33.680 | it's very hard to follow that, it's like when guys come back

00:44:35.720 | from the military and they have depression,

00:44:38.160 | it's like, do you miss bullets flying at you?

00:44:40.720 | Yeah, kind of, because of that adrenaline

00:44:42.880 | which turned into dopamine and the camaraderie,

00:44:45.160 | I mean, there's people that speak much better

00:44:46.600 | about this than I do, but I just, I'm obsessed

00:44:50.120 | with neurology and I'm just obsessed with sort of

00:44:52.240 | the lies we tell ourselves in order

00:44:54.480 | to justify getting neurochemicals.

00:44:57.120 | - You've done actually quite, done a lot of thinking

00:45:00.400 | and talking about neurology, just kind of look

00:45:03.480 | at human behavior through the lens of looking

00:45:06.960 | at how our actually, chemically, our brain works.

00:45:09.160 | So what, first of all, why did you connect with that idea

00:45:13.960 | and what have you, how has your view of the world changed

00:45:17.600 | by considering the brain is just a machine?

00:45:22.480 | - You know, I know it probably sounds really nihilistic,

00:45:24.640 | but for me it's very liberating to know a lot

00:45:27.600 | about neurochemicals because you don't have to,

00:45:30.120 | it's like the same thing with like critics,

00:45:32.560 | like critical reviews, if you believe the good,

00:45:34.840 | you have to believe the bad kind of thing.

00:45:36.200 | Like, you know, if you believe that your bad choices

00:45:39.000 | were because of your moral integrity or whatever,

00:45:43.840 | you have to believe your good ones,

00:45:44.840 | I just think there's something really liberating

00:45:46.400 | and going like, oh, that was just adrenaline,

00:45:48.160 | I just said that thing 'cause I was adrenalized

00:45:49.800 | and I was scared and my amygdala was activated

00:45:52.160 | and that's why I said you're an asshole and get out.

00:45:54.480 | And that's, you know, I just think it's important

00:45:56.800 | to delineate what's nature and what's nurture,

00:45:58.880 | what is your choice and what is just your brain

00:46:01.120 | trying to keep you safe.

00:46:02.120 | I think we forget that even though we have security systems

00:46:04.640 | and homes and locks on our doors, that our brain,

00:46:07.000 | for the most part, is just trying to keep us safe

00:46:08.800 | all the time, it's why we hold grudges,

00:46:10.440 | it's why we get angry, it's why we get road rage,

00:46:13.000 | it's why we do a lot of things.

00:46:14.840 | And it's also, when I started learning about neurology,

00:46:17.360 | I started having so much more compassion for other people.

00:46:19.760 | You know, if someone yelled at me,

00:46:21.280 | being like, fuck you, on the road,

00:46:22.640 | I'd be like, okay, he's producing adrenaline right now

00:46:24.680 | because we're all going 65 miles an hour

00:46:27.760 | and our brains aren't really designed

00:46:30.400 | for this type of stress and he's scared.

00:46:33.360 | He was scared, you know, so that really helped me

00:46:35.400 | to have more love for people in my everyday life

00:46:38.720 | instead of being in fight or flight mode.

00:46:41.080 | But the, I think, more interesting answer to your question

00:46:44.240 | is that I've had migraines my whole life,

00:46:45.800 | like I've suffered with really intense migraines,

00:46:49.120 | ocular migraines, ones where my arm would go numb,

00:46:52.440 | and I just started having to go to so many doctors

00:46:55.080 | to learn about it, and I started, you know,

00:46:58.400 | learning that we don't really know that much.

00:47:00.720 | We know a lot, but it's wild to go into one

00:47:03.680 | of the best neurologists in the world

00:47:04.920 | who's like, yeah, we don't know.

00:47:05.960 | - We don't know. - We don't know.

00:47:07.400 | And that fascinated me.

00:47:08.720 | - It's like one of the worst pains you can probably have,

00:47:10.760 | all that stuff, and we don't know the source.

00:47:13.360 | - We don't know the source, and there is something

00:47:15.520 | really fascinating about when your left arm

00:47:18.640 | starts going numb, and you start not being able to see

00:47:21.080 | out of the left side of both your eyes,

00:47:22.880 | and I remember when the migraines get really bad,

00:47:25.400 | it's like a mini stroke almost,

00:47:26.920 | and you're able to see words on a page,

00:47:29.920 | but I can't read them.

00:47:31.280 | They just look like symbols to me.

00:47:33.120 | So there's something just really fascinating to me

00:47:35.040 | about your brain just being able to stop functioning,

00:47:38.320 | and so I just wanted to learn about it, study about it.

00:47:41.680 | I did all these weird alternative treatments.

00:47:43.400 | I got this piercing in here that actually works.

00:47:45.920 | I've tried everything, and then both my parents

00:47:48.160 | had strokes.

00:47:49.240 | So when both of my parents had strokes,

00:47:51.080 | I became sort of the person who had to decide

00:47:54.200 | what was gonna happen with their recovery,

00:47:56.720 | which is just a wild thing to have to deal with it,

00:47:59.160 | you know, 28 years old, when it happened,

00:48:02.160 | and I started spending basically all day every day

00:48:05.120 | in ICUs with neurologists learning about what happened

00:48:08.240 | in my dad's brain, and why he can't move his left arm,

00:48:11.200 | but he can move his right leg, but he can't see out of the,

00:48:13.600 | you know, and then my mom had another stroke

00:48:16.000 | in a different part of the brain.

00:48:18.120 | So I started having to learn what parts of the brain

00:48:20.560 | did what, and so that I wouldn't take their behavior

00:48:23.200 | so personally, and so that I would be able to manage

00:48:25.160 | my expectations in terms of their recovery.

00:48:27.440 | So my mom, because it affected a lot of her frontal lobe,

00:48:31.280 | changed a lot as a person.

00:48:33.120 | She was way more emotional, she was way more micromanaged,

00:48:35.800 | she was forgetting certain things,

00:48:37.000 | so it broke my heart less when I was able to know,

00:48:40.320 | oh yeah, well, the stroke hit this part of the brain,

00:48:42.080 | and that's the one that's responsible for short-term memory

00:48:44.240 | and that's responsible for long-term memory, da-da-da,

00:48:46.880 | and then my brother just got something

00:48:48.720 | called viral encephalitis,

00:48:50.640 | which is an infection inside the brain.

00:48:53.280 | So it was kind of wild that I was able to go,

00:48:56.320 | oh, I know exactly what's happening here, and I know,

00:48:58.240 | you know, so.

00:48:59.800 | - So that allows you to have some more compassion

00:49:02.480 | for the struggles that people have,

00:49:04.480 | but does it take away some of the magic

00:49:06.640 | for some of the, from some of the more positive experiences

00:49:10.680 | of life? - Sometimes.

00:49:12.000 | Sometimes, and I don't, I'm such a control addict

00:49:15.360 | that, you know, I think our biggest,

00:49:18.120 | someone like me, my biggest dream

00:49:19.920 | is to know why someone's doing, that's what stand-up is.

00:49:22.240 | It's just trying to figure out why,

00:49:23.440 | or that's what writing is, that's what acting is,

00:49:25.040 | that's what performing is, it's trying to figure out

00:49:26.400 | why someone would do something.

00:49:27.440 | As an actor, you get a piece of, you know, material,

00:49:30.040 | and you go, this person, why would he say that?

00:49:32.120 | Why would she pick up that cup?

00:49:33.760 | Why would she walk over here?

00:49:35.040 | It's really why, why, why, why.

00:49:36.560 | So I think neurology is, if you're trying to figure out

00:49:39.600 | human motives and why people do what they do,

00:49:41.520 | it'd be crazy not to understand

00:49:44.000 | how neurochemicals motivate us.

00:49:46.080 | I also have a lot of addiction in my family,

00:49:48.080 | and hardcore drug addiction and mental illness,

00:49:51.480 | and in order to cope with it,

00:49:53.720 | you really have to understand it,

00:49:54.760 | borderline personality disorder,

00:49:56.000 | schizophrenia, and drug addiction.

00:49:58.340 | So I have a lot of people I love

00:50:00.640 | that suffer from drug addiction and alcoholism,

00:50:02.840 | and the first thing they started teaching you

00:50:04.760 | is it's not a choice.

00:50:05.880 | These people's dopamine receptors

00:50:07.360 | don't hold dopamine the same ways yours do.

00:50:09.640 | Their frontal lobe is underdeveloped.

00:50:11.600 | Like, you know, and that really helped me

00:50:14.600 | to navigate loving people

00:50:17.920 | that were addicted to substances.

00:50:20.240 | - I wanna be careful with this question,

00:50:22.600 | but how much--

00:50:24.240 | - Money do you have?

00:50:25.320 | - How much-- (laughing)

00:50:27.480 | Can I borrow $10?

00:50:28.520 | (laughing)

00:50:30.920 | Okay.

00:50:31.760 | No, is how much control,

00:50:36.520 | how much, despite the chemical imbalances

00:50:39.760 | or the biological limitations

00:50:42.920 | that each of our individual brains have,

00:50:44.480 | how much mind over matter is there?

00:50:47.080 | So through things,

00:50:49.440 | and I've known people with clinical depression,

00:50:53.200 | and so it's always a touchy subject

00:50:55.560 | to say how much they can really help it.

00:50:57.680 | - Very.

00:50:58.520 | - What can you, yeah, what can you,

00:51:01.680 | 'cause you've talked about codependency,

00:51:03.560 | you've talked about issues that you struggle through,

00:51:07.400 | and nevertheless you choose to take a journey

00:51:09.880 | of healing and so on.

00:51:11.200 | So that's your choice, that's your actions.

00:51:14.240 | So how much can you do to help fight the limitations

00:51:17.720 | of the neurochemicals in your brain?

00:51:20.000 | - That's such an interesting question,

00:51:21.800 | and I don't think I'm at all qualified to answer,

00:51:23.440 | but I'll say what I do know.

00:51:25.560 | And really quick, just the definition of codependency,

00:51:28.200 | I think a lot of people think of codependency

00:51:29.880 | as like two people that can't stop hanging out,

00:51:32.680 | you know, or like, you know,

00:51:35.200 | that's not totally off,

00:51:36.640 | but I think for the most part,

00:51:38.280 | my favorite definition of codependency

00:51:39.960 | is the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others.

00:51:42.920 | You grow up in an alcoholic home,

00:51:44.040 | you grow up around mental illness,

00:51:45.200 | you grow up in chaos,

00:51:46.480 | you have a parent that's a narcissist,

00:51:48.280 | you basically are wired to just,

00:51:50.520 | people, please, worry about others,

00:51:52.760 | be perfect, walk on eggshells,

00:51:54.720 | shape shift to accommodate other people.

00:51:56.680 | So codependence is a very active wiring issue

00:52:01.680 | that, you know, doesn't just affect

00:52:04.480 | your romantic relationships,

00:52:05.680 | it affects you being a boss,

00:52:07.040 | it affects you in the world online,

00:52:10.520 | you know, you get one negative comment

00:52:12.040 | and it throws you for two weeks,

00:52:14.160 | you know, it also is linked to eating disorders

00:52:16.200 | and other kinds of addiction.

00:52:17.160 | So it's a very big thing.

00:52:20.240 | And I think a lot of people sometimes only think

00:52:22.000 | that it's in romantic relationships,

00:52:23.520 | so I always feel the need to say that.

00:52:25.960 | And also one of the reasons I love the idea of robots

00:52:28.080 | so much because you don't have to walk

00:52:29.880 | on eggshells around them,

00:52:30.880 | you don't have to worry they're gonna get mad at you yet,

00:52:33.320 | but there's no, codependence are hypersensitive

00:52:36.920 | to the needs and moods of others,

00:52:39.560 | and it's very exhausting, it's depleting.

00:52:42.160 | Just, well, one conversation about where we're gonna

00:52:44.720 | go to dinner is like, do you wanna go get Chinese food?

00:52:47.280 | We just had Chinese food.

00:52:48.440 | Well, wait, are you mad?

00:52:50.160 | Well, no, I didn't mean to, and it's just like,

00:52:52.200 | that codependence live in this,

00:52:54.960 | everything means something,

00:52:56.640 | and humans can be very emotionally exhausting.

00:53:00.160 | Why did you look at me that way?

00:53:01.200 | What are you thinking about?

00:53:02.040 | What was that, why'd you check your phone?

00:53:03.200 | It's just, it's a hypersensitivity

00:53:05.040 | that can be incredibly time-consuming,

00:53:07.920 | which is why I love the idea of robots just subbing in.

00:53:10.760 | Even, I've had a hard time running TV shows and stuff

00:53:13.840 | because even asking someone to do something,

00:53:15.360 | I don't wanna come off like a bitch.

00:53:16.520 | I'm very concerned about what other people think of me,

00:53:18.680 | how I'm perceived, which is why I think robots

00:53:21.640 | will be very beneficial for codependence.

00:53:23.880 | - By the way, just a real quick tangent,

00:53:25.600 | that skill or flaw, whatever you wanna call it,

00:53:29.160 | is actually really useful for,

00:53:30.840 | if you ever do start your own podcast for interviewing,

00:53:34.640 | because you're now kind of obsessed

00:53:36.480 | about the mindset of others,

00:53:39.240 | and it makes you a good sort of listener and talker with.

00:53:43.560 | So I think, what's her name from NPR?

00:53:48.560 | - Terry Gross.

00:53:49.480 | - Terry Gross talked about having that, so.

00:53:51.720 | - I don't feel like she has that at all.

00:53:53.680 | (laughing)

00:53:56.320 | What?

00:53:57.160 | She worries about other people's feelings.

00:54:00.760 | - Yeah, absolutely.

00:54:01.800 | - Oh, I don't get that at all.

00:54:03.680 | - I mean, you have to put yourself in the mind

00:54:05.240 | of the person you're speaking with.

00:54:07.120 | - Yes, oh, I see, just in terms of,

00:54:08.880 | yeah, I am starting a podcast,

00:54:10.200 | and the reason I haven't is because I'm codependent

00:54:12.440 | and I'm too worried it's not gonna be perfect.

00:54:14.360 | So a big codependent adage is,

00:54:17.520 | perfectionism leads to procrastination,

00:54:19.160 | which leads to paralysis.

00:54:20.320 | - So how do you, sorry to take a million tangents,

00:54:22.280 | how do you survive on social media?

00:54:23.600 | 'Cause you're exceptionally active.

00:54:25.160 | - But by the way, I took you on a tangent

00:54:26.560 | and didn't answer your last question

00:54:27.800 | about how much we can control.

00:54:29.960 | - How much, yeah, we'll return it, or maybe not.

00:54:32.960 | The answer is we can't.

00:54:33.800 | - Now as a codependent, I'm worried, okay, good.

00:54:36.240 | We can, but one of the things that I'm fascinated by

00:54:39.640 | is the first thing you learn

00:54:40.960 | when you go into 12-step programs

00:54:42.640 | or addiction recovery or any of this

00:54:44.200 | is genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger.

00:54:47.840 | And there's certain parts of your genetics

00:54:50.540 | you cannot control.

00:54:51.560 | I come from a lot of alcoholism,

00:54:54.240 | I come from a lot of mental illness,

00:54:59.920 | there's certain things I cannot control

00:55:01.680 | and a lot of things that maybe we don't even know yet

00:55:04.000 | what we can and can't

00:55:04.840 | 'cause of how little we actually know about the brain.

00:55:06.720 | But we also talk about the warrior spirit

00:55:08.600 | and there are some people that have that warrior spirit

00:55:12.080 | and we don't necessarily know what that engine is,

00:55:15.280 | whether it's you get dopamine from succeeding

00:55:17.960 | or achieving or martyring yourself

00:55:21.160 | or that tension you get from growing.

00:55:24.880 | So a lot of people are like,

00:55:25.720 | "Oh, well, this person can edify themselves and overcome,

00:55:29.040 | "but if you're getting attention from improving yourself,

00:55:32.260 | "you're gonna keep wanting to do that."

00:55:34.560 | So that is something that helps a lot of

00:55:37.260 | in terms of changing your brain.

00:55:38.600 | If you talk about changing your brain to people

00:55:40.440 | and talk about what you're doing

00:55:41.640 | to overcome set obstacles,

00:55:42.920 | you're gonna get more attention from them,

00:55:44.600 | which is gonna fire off your reward system

00:55:46.840 | and then you're gonna keep doing it.

00:55:48.400 | - Yeah, so you can leverage that momentum.

00:55:50.320 | - So this is why in any 12-step program,

00:55:52.720 | you go into a room and you talk about your progress

00:55:55.160 | 'cause then everyone claps for you

00:55:57.120 | and then you're more motivated to keep going.

00:55:58.800 | So that's why we say you're only as sick

00:56:00.200 | as the secrets you keep,

00:56:01.240 | because if you keep things secret,

00:56:03.700 | there's no one guiding you to go in a certain direction.

00:56:06.120 | It's based on, right?

00:56:07.120 | We're sort of designed to get approval from the tribe

00:56:10.400 | or from a group of people 'cause our brain

00:56:12.840 | translates it to safety.

00:56:14.600 | So, yeah.

00:56:15.440 | - And in that case, the tribe is a positive one

00:56:17.680 | that helps you go in a positive direction.

00:56:19.520 | - So that's why it's so important to go into a room

00:56:21.240 | and also say, "Hey, I wanted to use drugs today."

00:56:25.080 | And people go, "Mm."

00:56:26.440 | They go, "Me too."

00:56:27.720 | You feel less alone and you feel less like you're,

00:56:30.040 | you know, have been castigated from the pack or whatever.

00:56:32.720 | And then you say, "And I didn't have any,"

00:56:34.200 | you get a chip when you haven't drank for 30 days

00:56:36.400 | or 60 days or whatever.

00:56:37.560 | You get little rewards.

00:56:38.600 | - So talking about a pack that's not at all healthy or good,

00:56:43.200 | but in fact is often toxic, social media.

00:56:46.240 | So you're one of my favorite people on Twitter and Instagram

00:56:49.760 | to sort of just both the comedy and the insight and just fun.

00:56:54.480 | How do you prevent social media

00:56:55.760 | from destroying your mental health?

00:56:57.240 | - I haven't.

00:56:58.080 | I haven't.

00:57:00.400 | It's the next big epidemic, isn't it?

00:57:03.160 | I don't think I have.

00:57:06.600 | I don't think--

00:57:08.680 | - Is moderation the answer?

00:57:10.760 | - Maybe, but you can do a lot of damage in a moderate way.

00:57:14.320 | I mean, I guess, again, it depends on your goals, you know?

00:57:17.120 | And I think for me,

00:57:19.600 | the way that my addiction to social media,

00:57:21.800 | I'm happy to call it an addiction.

00:57:23.080 | I mean, and I define it as an addiction

00:57:24.960 | because it stops being a choice.

00:57:26.280 | There are times I just reach over and I'm like,

00:57:28.120 | that was--

00:57:29.240 | - Yeah, that was weird.

00:57:30.080 | - That was weird.

00:57:31.320 | I'll be driving sometimes and I'll be like, oh my God,

00:57:33.720 | my arm just went to my phone, you know?

00:57:36.800 | I can put it down.

00:57:37.800 | I can take time away from it, but when I do, I get antsy.

00:57:41.360 | I get restless, irritable, and discontent.

00:57:43.400 | I mean, that's kind of the definition, isn't it?

00:57:45.840 | So I think by no means

00:57:48.680 | do I have a healthy relationship with social media.

00:57:50.480 | I'm sure there's a way to,

00:57:51.560 | but I think I'm especially a weirdo in this space

00:57:54.800 | because it's easy to conflate, is this work?

00:57:58.040 | Is this not?

00:57:58.880 | I can always say that it's for work.

00:58:00.840 | - Right. - You know?

00:58:01.960 | - But I mean, don't you get the same kind of thing

00:58:04.160 | as you get from when a room full of people laugh at your jokes

00:58:08.080 | 'cause I mean, I see, especially the way you do Twitter,

00:58:11.200 | it's an extension of your comedy in a way.

00:58:13.680 | - I took a big break from Twitter though,

00:58:15.960 | a really big break.

00:58:16.800 | I took like six months off or something for a while

00:58:19.160 | because it was just like,

00:58:20.480 | it seemed like it was all kind of politics

00:58:22.240 | and it was just a little bit,

00:58:23.280 | it wasn't giving me dopamine

00:58:25.000 | because there was like this weird, a lot of feedback.

00:58:28.280 | So I had to take a break from it and then go back to it

00:58:30.720 | 'cause I felt like I didn't have a healthy relationship.

00:58:33.480 | - Have you ever tried the, I don't know if I believe him,

00:58:36.120 | but Joe Rogan seems to not read comments.

00:58:39.440 | Have you, and he's one of the only people at the scale,

00:58:42.540 | like at your level, who at least claims not to read.

00:58:48.760 | 'Cause you and him swim in this space of tense ideas

00:58:53.760 | that get the toxic folks riled up.

00:58:58.720 | - I think Rogan, I don't know.

00:59:01.160 | I think he probably looks at YouTube, like the likes,

00:59:06.600 | and I think if something's, if he doesn't know,

00:59:09.640 | I don't know, I'm sure he would tell the truth.

00:59:12.700 | I'm sure he's got people that look at them

00:59:15.840 | and is like, "This guest did great,"

00:59:17.280 | or, "I don't," I'm sure he gets it.

00:59:20.640 | I can't picture him in the weeds on--

00:59:23.240 | - No, for sure.

00:59:24.320 | He's honest actually saying that.

00:59:26.020 | - Feedback, we're addicted to feedback.

00:59:29.680 | Yeah, we're addicted to feedback.

00:59:30.600 | I mean, look, I think that our brain is designed

00:59:34.280 | to get intel on how we're perceived

00:59:37.760 | so that we know where we stand, right?

00:59:39.900 | That's our whole deal, right?

00:59:41.320 | As humans, we wanna know where we stand.

00:59:43.080 | We walk into a room and we go,

00:59:44.160 | "Who's the most powerful person in here?

00:59:45.480 | "I gotta talk to 'em and get in their good graces."

00:59:47.520 | It's just we're designed to rank ourselves, right?

00:59:49.960 | And constantly know our rank.

00:59:51.800 | And social media, because you can't figure out your rank

00:59:55.900 | with 500 million people, it's impossible.

00:59:59.600 | So our brain is like, "What's my rank?

01:00:00.720 | "What's my," and especially if we're following people.

01:00:03.000 | I think the big, the interesting thing I think

01:00:05.440 | I maybe be able to say about this,

01:00:07.840 | besides my speech impediment,

01:00:09.440 | is that I did start muting people

01:00:13.120 | that rank wildly higher than me

01:00:16.160 | because it is just stressful on the brain

01:00:19.040 | to constantly look at people that are incredibly successful

01:00:23.080 | so you keep feeling bad about yourself.

01:00:25.320 | I think that that is cutting to a certain extent.

01:00:28.640 | Just like, look at me looking at all these people

01:00:30.960 | that have so much more money than me

01:00:32.080 | and so much more success than me.

01:00:33.800 | It's making me feel like a failure,

01:00:35.880 | even though I don't think I'm a failure,

01:00:37.600 | but it's easy to frame it so that I can feel that way.

01:00:41.920 | - Yeah, that's really interesting,

01:00:43.320 | especially if they're close to,

01:00:45.120 | like if they're other comedians or something like that.

01:00:46.920 | - That's right. - Or whatever.

01:00:48.920 | It's really disappointing to me.

01:00:50.480 | I do the same thing as well.

01:00:51.760 | So other successful people that are really close

01:00:53.580 | to what I do, I don't know.

01:00:56.400 | I wish I could just admire.

01:00:58.240 | - Yeah.

01:00:59.080 | - And for it not to be a distraction.

01:01:01.160 | - But that's why you are where you are

01:01:02.480 | 'cause you don't just admire your competitive

01:01:04.360 | and you wanna win.

01:01:05.280 | So it's also the same thing that bums you out

01:01:07.520 | when you look at this is the same reason

01:01:08.840 | you are where you are.

01:01:09.680 | So that's why I think it's so important

01:01:11.520 | to learn about neurology and addiction

01:01:12.840 | 'cause you're able to go like,

01:01:14.120 | oh, this same instinct.

01:01:15.720 | So I'm very sensitive and I sometimes don't like that

01:01:18.840 | about myself, but I'm like, well, that's the reason

01:01:20.480 | I'm able to write good standup.

01:01:22.440 | And that's the reason I'm able to be sensitive to feedback

01:01:25.680 | and go, that joke should have been better.

01:01:26.920 | I can make that better.

01:01:28.080 | So it's the kind of thing where it's like,

01:01:29.480 | you have to be really sensitive in your work

01:01:31.280 | and the second you leave,

01:01:32.360 | you gotta be able to turn it off.

01:01:33.580 | It's about developing the muscle,

01:01:34.840 | being able to know when to let it be a superpower

01:01:38.360 | and when it's gonna hold you back and be an obstacle.

01:01:41.200 | So I try to not be in that black and white

01:01:43.080 | of like, being competitive is bad

01:01:45.760 | or being jealous of someone just to go like,

01:01:47.680 | oh, there's that thing that makes me really successful

01:01:50.200 | in a lot of other ways,

01:01:51.400 | but right now it's making me feel bad.

01:01:53.240 | - Well, I'm kind of looking to you

01:01:54.920 | 'cause you're basically a celebrity,

01:01:58.000 | the famous sort of world-class comedian.

01:02:01.200 | And so I feel like you're the right person

01:02:03.080 | to be one of the key people to define

01:02:06.080 | what's the healthy path forward with social media.

01:02:08.680 | 'Cause we're all trying to figure it out now

01:02:12.800 | and I'm curious to see where it evolves.

01:02:16.200 | I think you're at the center of that.

01:02:17.960 | So like, there's trying to leave Twitter

01:02:21.640 | and then come back and say,

01:02:22.800 | can I do this in a healthy way?

01:02:24.080 | I mean, you have to keep trying, exploring and thinking.

01:02:25.920 | - You have to know because it's being,

01:02:28.120 | I have a couple answers.

01:02:29.720 | I think, I hire a company

01:02:31.600 | to do some of my social media for me.

01:02:33.920 | So it's also being able to go,

01:02:35.960 | okay, I make a certain amount of money by doing this,

01:02:38.360 | but now let me be a good business person

01:02:40.360 | and say, I'm gonna pay you this amount to run this for me.

01:02:42.960 | So I'm not 24/7 in the weeds, hashtagging and responding.

01:02:45.920 | And just, it's a lot to take on.

01:02:47.280 | It's a lot of energy to take on.

01:02:48.800 | But at the same time,

01:02:49.640 | part of what I think makes me successful

01:02:52.280 | on social media if I am,

01:02:53.480 | is that people know I'm actually doing it

01:02:55.280 | and that I am an engaging and I'm responding

01:02:57.200 | and developing a personal relationship

01:02:59.600 | with complete strangers.

01:03:01.080 | So I think, figuring out that balance

01:03:04.000 | and really approaching it as a business,

01:03:06.200 | that's what I try to do.

01:03:07.320 | It's not dating, it's not,

01:03:09.520 | I try to just be really objective about,

01:03:11.240 | okay, here's what's working, here's what's not working.

01:03:13.440 | And in terms of taking the break from Twitter,

01:03:15.920 | this is a really savage take,

01:03:17.680 | but because I don't talk about my politics publicly,

01:03:21.760 | being on Twitter right after the last election

01:03:26.080 | was not gonna be beneficial

01:03:27.960 | because there was gonna be, you had to take a side.

01:03:30.320 | You had to be political

01:03:31.600 | in order to get any kind of retweets or likes.

01:03:34.440 | And I just wasn't interested in doing that

01:03:37.280 | 'cause you were gonna lose as many people

01:03:38.720 | as you were gonna gain

01:03:39.560 | and it was gonna all come clean in the wash.

01:03:40.840 | So I was just like,

01:03:41.840 | the best thing I can do for me business-wise

01:03:44.360 | is to just abstain.

01:03:46.680 | And the robot, I joke about her replacing me,

01:03:52.240 | but she does do half of my social media.

01:03:54.360 | 'Cause I don't want people to get sick of me.

01:03:57.960 | I don't want to be redundant.

01:03:59.840 | There are times when I don't have the time or the energy

01:04:02.440 | to make a funny video,

01:04:03.360 | but I know she's gonna be compelling and interesting

01:04:06.160 | and that's something that you can't see every day.

01:04:08.520 | - Of course, the humor comes from your,

01:04:11.920 | I mean, the cleverness, the wit,

01:04:13.400 | the humor comes from you when you film the robot.

01:04:16.400 | That's kind of the trick of it.

01:04:17.840 | I mean, the robot is not quite there

01:04:21.000 | to do anything funny.

01:04:23.440 | The absurdity is revealed through the filmmaker in that case

01:04:26.680 | or whoever is interacting,

01:04:27.840 | not through the actual robot being who she is.

01:04:32.840 | Let me sort of, love, okay.

01:04:37.440 | (Bridget laughs)

01:04:38.960 | How difficult-- - What is it?

01:04:40.800 | - What is it?

01:04:41.640 | Well, first an engineering question.

01:04:45.080 | I know, I know, you're not an engineer,

01:04:48.080 | but how difficult do you think is it to build an AI system

01:04:52.160 | that you can have a deep,

01:04:53.760 | fulfilling, monogamous relationship with?

01:04:56.480 | Sort of replace the human-to-human relationships

01:04:59.880 | that we value?

01:05:00.800 | - I think anyone can fall in love with anything.

01:05:04.280 | You know, like how often have you looked back at someone,

01:05:08.340 | like I ran into someone the other day

01:05:10.480 | that I was in love with and I was like,

01:05:12.640 | "Hey," it was like, there was nothing there.

01:05:16.320 | There was nothing there.

01:05:17.880 | Like, you know, like where you're able to go like,

01:05:19.720 | "Oh, that was weird.

01:05:20.880 | "Oh, right."

01:05:22.480 | You know, I were able--

01:05:25.080 | - You mean from a distant past

01:05:26.320 | or something like that? - Yeah.

01:05:27.880 | When you're able to go like,

01:05:28.720 | I can't believe we had an incredible connection

01:05:31.440 | and now it's just,

01:05:32.960 | I do think that people will be in love with robots,

01:05:37.320 | probably even more deeply with humans,

01:05:39.820 | because it's like when people mourn their animals,

01:05:42.520 | when their animals die,

01:05:44.040 | they're always, it's sometimes harder than mourning a human

01:05:47.760 | because you can't go, "Well, he was kind of an asshole."

01:05:50.360 | But like, "He didn't pick me up from school."

01:05:52.000 | You know, it's like you're able to get out of your grief

01:05:53.880 | a little bit.

01:05:54.720 | You're able to kind of be,

01:05:56.200 | "Oh, he was kind of judgmental."

01:05:57.440 | Or, "She was kind of," you know.

01:05:59.440 | With a robot, there's something so pure about,

01:06:02.080 | and innocent, and impish, and childlike about it

01:06:05.560 | that I think it probably will be much more conducive

01:06:09.660 | to a narcissistic love, for sure, at that.

01:06:12.520 | But it's not like, "Well, he cheated.

01:06:15.240 | "She can't cheat.

01:06:16.080 | "She can't leave you.

01:06:16.900 | "She can't," you know.

01:06:17.960 | - Well, if a bear claw leaves your life

01:06:21.560 | and maybe a new version

01:06:23.640 | or somebody else will enter,

01:06:25.680 | will you miss a bear claw?

01:06:27.960 | - For guys that have these sex robots,

01:06:30.680 | they're building a nursing home for the bodies

01:06:34.400 | that are now rusting

01:06:36.360 | 'cause they don't wanna part with the bodies

01:06:37.960 | 'cause they have such an intense emotional connection to it.

01:06:40.880 | I mean, it's kind of like a car club, a little bit.

01:06:42.880 | You know, like it's, you know.

01:06:45.000 | But I'm not saying this is right.

01:06:47.400 | I'm not saying it's cool, it's weird, it's creepy,

01:06:50.040 | but we do anthropomorphize things with faces

01:06:53.840 | and we do develop emotional connections to things.

01:06:56.680 | I mean, there's certain,

01:06:58.080 | have you ever tried to like throw away,

01:06:59.360 | I can't even throw away my teddy bear from when I was a kid.

01:07:01.840 | It's a piece of trash and it's upstairs.

01:07:04.360 | Like, it's just like, why can't I throw that away?

01:07:06.700 | It's bizarre.

01:07:07.980 | You know, and there's something kind of beautiful about that.

01:07:10.160 | There's something, it gives me hope in humans

01:07:13.160 | 'cause I see humans do such horrific things all the time

01:07:15.760 | and maybe I'm too, I see too much of it, frankly,

01:07:18.380 | but there's something kind of beautiful

01:07:20.280 | about the way we're able to have emotional connections

01:07:24.400 | to objects, which, you know, a lot of,

01:07:29.240 | I mean, it's kind of specifically, I think, Western, right?

01:07:32.200 | That we don't see objects as having souls.

01:07:34.920 | Like, that's kind of specifically us.

01:07:36.840 | But I don't think it's so much

01:07:39.760 | that we're objectifying humans with these sex robots.

01:07:43.460 | We're kind of humanizing objects, right?

01:07:45.700 | So there's something kind of fascinating

01:07:47.120 | in our ability to do that.

01:07:48.180 | 'Cause a lot of us don't humanize humans.

01:07:50.080 | So it's just a weird little place to play in.

01:07:52.880 | And I think a lot of people, I mean,

01:07:54.980 | a lot of people will be marrying these things is my guess.

01:07:57.760 | - So you've asked the question.

01:07:59.640 | Let me ask it of you.

01:08:00.640 | So what is love?

01:08:01.900 | You have a bit of a brilliant definition of love

01:08:05.720 | as being willing to die for someone

01:08:07.860 | who you yourself want to kill.

01:08:10.600 | So that's kind of fun.

01:08:12.240 | First of all, that's brilliant.

01:08:13.960 | That's a really good definition.

01:08:16.480 | I don't think it'll stick with me for a long time.

01:08:18.080 | - This is how little of a romantic I am.

01:08:19.880 | A plane went by when you said that.

01:08:21.440 | And my brain is like, you're gonna need to rerecord that.

01:08:24.960 | I don't want you to get into post

01:08:26.440 | and then not be able to use it.

01:08:28.040 | (laughing)

01:08:30.300 | - And I'm a romantic 'cause I--

01:08:32.000 | - Don't mean to ruin the moment.

01:08:33.680 | - Actually, I can not be conscious of the fact

01:08:35.680 | that I heard the plane and it made me feel like

01:08:38.280 | how amazing it is that we live in a world with planes.

01:08:41.160 | (laughing)

01:08:43.360 | - And I just went, why haven't we fucking evolved

01:08:46.160 | past planes and why can't they make them quieter?

01:08:49.120 | - Yeah.

01:08:49.960 | (laughing)

01:08:50.780 | - But yes.

01:08:51.620 | - This--

01:08:52.460 | - My definition of love?

01:08:54.480 | - What, yeah, what's your--

01:08:56.760 | - Consistently producing dopamine for a long time.

01:08:59.960 | (laughing)

01:09:01.440 | Consistent output of oxytocin with the same person.

01:09:05.140 | - Dopamine is a positive thing.

01:09:08.280 | What about the negative?

01:09:09.560 | What about the fear and the insecurity?

01:09:12.000 | The longing, anger, all that kind of stuff?

01:09:16.520 | - I think that's part of love.

01:09:17.840 | I think that love brings out the best in you

01:09:22.000 | but it also, if you don't get angry and upset,

01:09:24.040 | it's, I don't know, I think that that's part of it.

01:09:26.880 | I think we have this idea that love has to be really

01:09:29.680 | placid or something.

01:09:31.060 | I only saw stormy relationships growing up

01:09:34.160 | so I don't have a judgment on how a relationship

01:09:38.120 | should look but I do think that this idea

01:09:42.360 | that love has to be eternal is really destructive,

01:09:47.360 | is really destructive and self-defeating

01:09:50.780 | and a big source of stress for people.

01:09:53.680 | I mean, I'm still figuring out love.

01:09:55.640 | I think we all kind of are but I do kind of

01:09:58.040 | stand by that definition.

01:09:59.360 | And I think that, I think for me, love is like

01:10:04.160 | just being able to be authentic with somebody.

01:10:06.260 | It's very simple, I know, but I think for me

01:10:08.560 | it's about not feeling pressure to have to perform

01:10:11.060 | or impress somebody, just feeling truly like

01:10:14.800 | accepted unconditionally by someone.

01:10:16.540 | Although I do believe love should be conditional.

01:10:19.160 | That might be a hot take.

01:10:22.860 | I think everything should be conditional.

01:10:24.280 | I think if someone's behavior, I don't think love

01:10:28.060 | should just be like, I'm in love with you,

01:10:29.520 | now behave however you want forever.

01:10:30.960 | This is unconditional.

01:10:31.840 | I think love is a daily action.

01:10:35.320 | It's not something you just like get tenure on

01:10:38.120 | and then get to behave however you want

01:10:40.020 | 'cause we said I love you 10 years ago.

01:10:41.900 | It's a daily, it's a verb.

01:10:44.580 | - Well, there's some things that are,

01:10:46.140 | you see, if you explicitly make it clear

01:10:49.080 | that it's conditional, it takes away

01:10:51.460 | some of the magic of it.

01:10:52.520 | So there's certain stories we tell ourselves

01:10:55.360 | that we don't wanna make explicit about love.

01:10:57.200 | I don't know, maybe that's the wrong way to think of it.

01:10:59.160 | Maybe you wanna be explicit in relationships.

01:11:02.680 | - I also think love is a business decision.

01:11:04.640 | Like I do in a good way.

01:11:07.980 | Like I think that love is not just

01:11:11.160 | when you're across from somebody.

01:11:12.580 | It's when I go to work, can I focus?

01:11:15.360 | Do I, am I worried about you?

01:11:16.200 | Am I stressed out about you?

01:11:17.440 | Am I, you're not responding to me, you're not reliable.

01:11:20.420 | Like I think that being in a relationship,

01:11:23.180 | the kind of love that I would want

01:11:24.280 | is the kind of relationship where when we're not together,

01:11:26.920 | it's not draining me, causing me stress, making me worry,

01:11:30.320 | you know, and sometimes passion, that word.

01:11:33.400 | You know, we get murky about it,

01:11:36.480 | but I think it's also like I can be the best version

01:11:38.200 | of myself when the person's not around

01:11:40.080 | and I don't have to feel abandoned or scared

01:11:42.680 | or any of these kind of other things.

01:11:43.960 | So it's like love, you know, for me, I think is,

01:11:47.040 | I think it's a Flaubert quote and I'm gonna butcher it,

01:11:49.800 | but I think it's like be, you know,

01:11:51.920 | boring in your personal life so you can be violent

01:11:54.240 | and take risks in your professional life.

01:11:55.780 | Is that it?

01:11:56.620 | I got it wrong.

01:11:57.480 | Something like that, but I do think that

01:12:00.000 | it's being able to align values in a way

01:12:01.680 | to where you can also thrive outside of the relationship.

01:12:04.680 | - Some of the most successful people I know

01:12:06.200 | are those sort of happily married and have kids and so on.

01:12:10.120 | It's always funny--

01:12:10.960 | - It can be boring.

01:12:11.880 | Boring's okay.

01:12:13.200 | Boring is serenity.

01:12:14.480 | - And it's funny how those elements

01:12:16.500 | actually make you much more productive.

01:12:18.380 | I don't understand the--

01:12:19.700 | - I don't think relationships should drain you

01:12:21.160 | and take away energy that you could be using

01:12:23.440 | to create things that generate pride.

01:12:25.800 | - Okay.

01:12:26.640 | - Did you say your relationship of love yet?

01:12:28.240 | - Huh?

01:12:29.080 | - Have you said your definition of love?

01:12:31.400 | - My definition of love?

01:12:32.640 | No, I did not say it.

01:12:34.760 | (Bridget laughs)

01:12:35.600 | We're out of time.

01:12:36.760 | - No!

01:12:37.600 | - When you have a podcast, maybe you can invite me on.

01:12:41.800 | - Oh no, I already did.

01:12:42.640 | You're doing it.

01:12:44.040 | We've already talked about this.

01:12:46.400 | - And because I also have codependency, I had to say yes.

01:12:49.480 | - No, yeah, yeah, no, no, I'm trapping you.

01:12:52.120 | You owe me now.

01:12:53.080 | - Actually, I wondered whether when I asked

01:12:58.280 | if we could talk today, after sort of doing more research

01:13:01.720 | and reading some of your book, I started to wonder,

01:13:04.640 | did you just feel pressured to say yes?

01:13:07.040 | - Yes, of course.

01:13:09.320 | - Good.

01:13:10.160 | - But I'm a fan of yours too.

01:13:11.000 | - Okay, awesome.

01:13:11.820 | - No, I actually, because I am codependent,

01:13:13.400 | but I'm in recovery for codependence,

01:13:14.920 | so I actually don't do anything I don't wanna do.

01:13:17.640 | - You really, you go out of your way to say no.

01:13:20.400 | - What's that?

01:13:21.240 | I say no all the time.

01:13:22.720 | - Good, I'm trying to learn that as well.

01:13:23.560 | - I moved this, remember, I moved it from one to two.

01:13:26.040 | - Yeah, yeah.

01:13:26.880 | - I--

01:13:27.720 | - Yeah, just to let you know how recovered I am.

01:13:30.320 | I'm not codependent, but I don't do anything

01:13:33.960 | I don't wanna do.

01:13:34.800 | - Yeah, you're ahead of me on that, okay.

01:13:36.960 | So do you--

01:13:37.800 | - You're like, I don't even wanna be here.

01:13:38.880 | (laughing)

01:13:40.600 | - Do you think about your mortality?

01:13:43.480 | - Yes, it is a big part of how I was able

01:13:47.000 | to sort of kickstart my codependence recovery.

01:13:49.120 | My dad passed a couple years ago,

01:13:50.480 | and when you have someone close to you in your life die,

01:13:53.120 | everything gets real clear in terms of

01:13:56.540 | how we're a speck of dust who's only here

01:13:58.360 | for a certain amount of time.

01:14:00.880 | - What do you think is the meaning of it all?

01:14:02.360 | Like what, the speck of dust,

01:14:05.200 | what's maybe in your own life,

01:14:08.080 | what's the goal, the purpose of your existence?

01:14:13.080 | - Is there one?

01:14:15.280 | - Well, you're exceptionally ambitious,

01:14:17.320 | you've created some incredible things

01:14:19.120 | in different disciplines.

01:14:21.680 | - Yeah, it's we're all just managing our terror

01:14:23.560 | 'cause we know we're gonna die.

01:14:24.560 | So we create and build all these things

01:14:26.360 | and rituals and religions and robots

01:14:29.460 | and whatever we need to do to just distract ourselves

01:14:31.800 | from imminent rotting.

01:14:35.240 | We're rotting, we're all dying.

01:14:37.140 | I got very into terror management theory

01:14:42.540 | when my dad died and it resonated, it helped me,

01:14:45.120 | and everyone's got their own religion

01:14:46.580 | or sense of purpose or thing that distracts them

01:14:50.280 | from the horrors of being human.

01:14:53.360 | - What's the terror management theory?

01:14:56.080 | - Terror management is basically the idea

01:14:57.360 | that since we're the only animal

01:14:58.680 | that knows they're gonna die,

01:15:00.360 | we have to basically distract ourselves

01:15:03.520 | with awards and achievements and games and whatever

01:15:08.520 | just in order to distract ourselves

01:15:11.960 | from the terror we would feel if we really processed

01:15:14.600 | the fact that we could not only, we are gonna die,

01:15:16.960 | but also could die at any minute

01:15:18.480 | because we're only superficially

01:15:19.820 | at the top of the food chain.

01:15:22.760 | And technically we're at the top of the food chain

01:15:26.160 | if we have houses and guns and stuff, machines,

01:15:29.320 | but if me and a lion are in the woods together,

01:15:32.520 | most things could kill us.

01:15:33.800 | I mean, a bee can kill some people.

01:15:35.720 | Something this big can kill a lot of humans.

01:15:38.680 | So it's basically just to manage the terror

01:15:41.480 | that we all would feel if we were able to really be awake.

01:15:45.200 | 'Cause we're mostly zombies, right?

01:15:46.860 | Job, school, religion, go to sleep, drink,

01:15:50.400 | football, relationship, dopamine, love, you know,

01:15:54.480 | we're kind of just like trudging along

01:15:57.000 | like zombies for the most part.

01:15:58.480 | And then I think--

01:15:59.800 | - That fear of death adds some motivation.

01:16:02.360 | - Yes.

01:16:03.460 | - Well, I think I speak for a lot of people

01:16:06.080 | in saying that I can't wait to see what your terror creates

01:16:10.440 | (laughing)

01:16:11.880 | in the next few years.

01:16:13.640 | I'm a huge fan.

01:16:14.840 | Whitney, thank you so much for talking today.

01:16:16.560 | - Thanks.

01:16:18.840 | - Thanks for listening to this conversation

01:16:20.520 | with Whitney Cummings.

01:16:21.880 | And thank you to our presenting sponsor, Cash App.

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01:16:49.200 | (upbeat music)

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01:16:54.360 | [BLANK_AUDIO]

Whitney Cummings: Comedy, Robotics, Neurology, and Love | Lex Fridman Podcast #55

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