back to index2015-10-08 Study of 1 Corinthians Part 2 Week 10
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Alright, let's take a look at 1 Corinthians 11, verses 2-16. 00:00:13.960 |
So if you would open your Bibles there, 1 Corinthians 11, verses 2-16. 00:00:23.400 |
Before I read, you know, you guys had a chance to talk a little bit about the content of 00:00:29.360 |
I want to remind us that we've been working through the book of Corinthians now for what 00:00:34.640 |
I believe to be something close to six months. 00:00:37.520 |
And really in my mind, the book of 1 Corinthians is a wisdom book. 00:00:44.400 |
In my mind, it's Apostle Paul teaching the church, this is how you ought to think. 00:00:51.720 |
This is how you should discern and come to a conclusion. 00:00:55.760 |
And so remember that chapter 8-10 that we studied for a big section, it was about how 00:01:01.800 |
to make decisions when you have the liberty but it affects your brothers and sisters in 00:01:07.480 |
Well today, we're jumping into a completely different category of thought, right? 00:01:13.080 |
And in my mind, nonetheless, it's still under the category of how to wisely behave in the 00:01:20.600 |
How to wisely think about even, maybe it was current event issues for them, you know? 00:01:28.160 |
So let's jump into the passage and then we'll take a moment to pray and study. 00:01:32.560 |
It says in verse 2, "Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly 00:01:39.640 |
to the traditions just as I delivered them to you. 00:01:42.800 |
But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man and the man is the head 00:01:51.120 |
Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 00:01:56.160 |
But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her 00:02:01.680 |
head for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. 00:02:06.440 |
For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also shave her hair, have her hair cut 00:02:11.840 |
off, but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, 00:02:20.200 |
For a man ought not to have his head covered since he is the image and the glory of God, 00:02:27.960 |
For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man. 00:02:31.200 |
For indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. 00:02:37.120 |
Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head because of the angels. 00:02:43.080 |
However, in the Lord neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 00:02:48.880 |
For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the 00:02:56.120 |
Judge for yourselves, is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 00:03:02.720 |
Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to 00:03:08.080 |
But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her. 00:03:11.560 |
For her hair is given to her for a covering, but if one is inclined to be contentious, 00:03:17.160 |
we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God. 00:03:27.200 |
And God, I pray that definitely your truth many times stands in opposition to the ideology 00:03:38.760 |
And I pray, Father God, that we would be very discerning on God, that we would not be sloppy 00:03:43.800 |
with the truth, but first that we would understand. 00:03:47.120 |
And God, that we would be able to uphold it, affirm it, not only that, but have it be confirmed 00:03:56.800 |
Father, we want to thank you again for guiding us in your truth. 00:03:59.760 |
I pray for every single one of us that meeting here tonight, joining together with the church, 00:04:05.560 |
and looking at your word would be a fruitful time of communion with you. 00:04:13.160 |
So we're looking at this verse, and I want to start off by looking at verse two. 00:04:19.960 |
It says here, "Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly 00:04:23.960 |
to the traditions just as I deliver them to you." 00:04:29.200 |
I asked you the question of, "Hey, this church is full of problems." 00:04:35.360 |
So what is he intending to say when he says this in verse two? 00:04:40.360 |
What were just some of your answers that you guys said? 00:04:46.000 |
What were some of the answers to that first question about the church has a lot of problems, 00:04:54.960 |
He was sort of implying that despite all the problems, at least they were doing the traditions. 00:05:14.080 |
Any other, what other thoughts did you guys have about that verse? 00:05:21.600 |
He said that some of the problems that were discussed in the previous chapters were just 00:05:39.600 |
about food, that they like, they both thought that, "Oh, it's okay for the Lord to do that 00:06:01.520 |
It was despite that, it was an effort to like follow the path. 00:06:05.520 |
So kind of combining the two, I feel the reason why I asked is because remember I mentioned 00:06:06.520 |
that the church probably had multiple correspondence with Apostle Paul, letters going back and 00:06:11.720 |
forth, and clearly they were asking him questions. 00:06:15.560 |
I think Apostle Paul is thankful for the fact that like, "Hey, at least you're asking me." 00:06:21.360 |
And they're asking him questions about, "What do we do about the food?" 00:06:23.480 |
They're obviously asking questions about, "What do you do about this?" 00:06:27.400 |
Maybe perhaps there were a group of ladies who are starting to take a more prominent 00:06:32.980 |
Maybe there were ladies who were advocating like, "Hey, I want to be able to do what that 00:06:38.200 |
Nonetheless, they were trying their best to basically seek advice from Apostle Paul. 00:06:48.800 |
And the reason why I bring that up is because that's important to our topic of study, the 00:06:56.360 |
And I want to ask you this question, when are traditions bad and when are traditions 00:07:01.280 |
If Apostle Paul lays down perhaps certain traditions, like, "Hey, year to year, I want 00:07:08.360 |
When does that kind of tradition become good and when does that kind of tradition become 00:07:14.680 |
Are you referring to having to practice them as you have to do it? 00:07:33.320 |
I guess I can be a little bit more detailed with the question. 00:07:38.800 |
So I was trying to study what he meant by traditions. 00:07:42.840 |
And what's interesting is he literally just means like traditions, a pattern that the 00:07:49.720 |
So for our church, we have certain traditions, we have certain like practices that we keep. 00:07:56.020 |
For example, even the idea of membership, is that explicitly spelled out in the Bible? 00:08:07.040 |
But it's something that we practice really, how's the word, carefully and seriously. 00:08:12.840 |
And it's a weighty thing for us at our church. 00:08:15.960 |
So when does something like that become bad versus good? 00:08:19.800 |
I guess my main question is, is all like tradition by men bad? 00:08:30.560 |
When you don't understand the purpose of the tradition and you do it just to do it. 00:08:40.320 |
It definitely becomes bad when a man-made tradition starts to lose its significance. 00:08:47.000 |
Because in my mind, traditions are not bad in and of itself at all. 00:08:52.540 |
As a matter of fact, I like to actually begin traditions with my family. 00:08:57.880 |
I like the fact that various churches have certain traditions. 00:09:02.200 |
Because I see certain traditions as applications. 00:09:07.920 |
But then if you lose the principle behind the application, then it's like, what in the 00:09:19.000 |
And as soon as you lose the significance, whether it's what it symbolizes or whether 00:09:22.800 |
it's what it represents for us or whether the overarching motivation that was pushing 00:09:27.800 |
that application and tradition, if that's lost, then now it's just like, okay, we're 00:09:32.080 |
just jumping through hoops and we're just putting on drama. 00:09:37.080 |
And the reason why I bring that up is because today I really want to talk about the principle 00:09:43.800 |
of gender roles, not so much the tradition of gender roles. 00:09:50.080 |
The principle of gender roles as opposed to the tradition of gender roles. 00:09:54.720 |
And I think Apostle Paul makes the distinction. 00:10:02.120 |
Can I have, since you're looking right at me, Titus, can you read verse three? 00:10:05.880 |
But I want you to understand that every man is Christ. 00:10:12.760 |
The head of a wife is her husband and the head of Christ is God. 00:10:18.640 |
So Apostle Paul begins by saying, hey, I'm glad you're referring to me. 00:10:21.400 |
I want to answer your questions kind of thing. 00:10:23.200 |
I'm glad that you're trying your best to keep the teachings I gave to you. 00:10:28.080 |
But I want you to understand this principle behind why I gave all that stuff. 00:10:31.360 |
And the principle is there is this relationship that's going on and I gave you a easy question 00:10:42.200 |
It's Christ to every man, man to his wife, and then God to Christ. 00:10:52.720 |
You have Christ as head over man, man head over woman, and God head over Christ. 00:10:59.960 |
You know, can some of you guys perhaps try to fill in that big bucket? 00:11:06.320 |
Talking about the headship of a man or the headship of Christ is a huge bucket, right? 00:11:15.120 |
And it says here that Christ is the head of every man. 00:11:17.480 |
What kind of thoughts come into the idea of headship? 00:11:22.120 |
What is referred to when you say, hey, Christ is the head of every man? 00:11:39.880 |
Oh, as in like the other party submits to the head. 00:11:52.920 |
So, I asked you guys to kind of see if you can jog any memories of other verses. 00:12:03.080 |
You'd be surprised how many New Testament passages talk about Christ being the head. 00:12:09.520 |
So for example, in the book of Ephesians, it talks about this lordship of Christ. 00:12:14.320 |
And so it says everything is subject under his foot. 00:12:17.880 |
And you'll think about that scenario or the analogy, and he's talking about king. 00:12:23.880 |
And I think I remember when I preached through Ephesians, I said there was a tradition in 00:12:30.120 |
ancient days when essentially, literally, other nations and other rulers, if you conquered 00:12:35.320 |
over them, they would have the king sit on essentially a platform like this, like a stage, 00:12:40.120 |
you know, and their throne would be on top and the others would literally come by his 00:12:46.200 |
To show the kind of authority over the other people who've been conquered. 00:12:53.240 |
The other things is, for example, in Ephesians chapter four, to be head, he is the source. 00:12:59.840 |
So he says he is the head and every other piece, that's 415. 00:13:05.080 |
Every other piece is joined together by the provision of Christ. 00:13:08.600 |
So Christ in being head, he's kind of the provider. 00:13:14.600 |
And there's just a lot of different thoughts. 00:13:18.360 |
Now there's gotta be this question, is Christ's headship over every man the same as man's 00:13:32.080 |
That's a big question because I just said Christ was like on the throne and then he 00:13:40.000 |
Is Christ's headship over a man the same as a man's christship over a woman? 00:14:13.040 |
So thank you for saying that because I struggle with that quite a bit. 00:14:18.920 |
How to teach this idea of authority and the way that an individual has headship over, 00:14:26.000 |
Well, if you turn your Bibles to Ephesians chapter five, this is the classic passage 00:14:38.920 |
Alright, so what I'd like to do is this is, it says here, and starting from verse 22, 00:14:52.360 |
Or starting from verse 21, it talks about various relationships and then verse 21 says, 00:14:59.200 |
and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. 00:15:02.720 |
Wives, be subject to your own husbands as to the Lord, for the husband is the head of 00:15:07.840 |
the wife as Christ also is the head of the church. 00:15:11.800 |
He himself being the savior of the body, but as a church is subject to Christ, so also 00:15:16.240 |
the wives ought to be to their husbands in everything. 00:15:21.600 |
Husbands love your wives just as Christ also loved the church and gave himself up for her 00:15:25.760 |
so that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of the water with the word 00:15:30.560 |
that he might present to himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkles 00:15:35.680 |
or any such thing but that she would be holy and blameless, okay? 00:15:41.680 |
So in that passage, it tries to make pretty clear the connection, okay? 00:15:49.840 |
But in harmonizing those various passages, we realize, hey, a headship has with it not 00:15:57.560 |
just a simplistic, okay, if you are a head, you're just absolutely ruler. 00:16:02.520 |
From that passage alone, we realize headship has quite the array within its definition, 00:16:11.000 |
So I want to challenge us to think about that. 00:16:15.720 |
Study that a little bit because on your own time, because that's an important concept. 00:16:23.040 |
It's going to affect how you teach various passages or think about various passages of 00:16:28.040 |
In harmonizing the two, I would also agree, there is a direct correlation of modeling 00:16:37.160 |
But our authority as perhaps men over a wife or whatnot is a delegated authority, okay? 00:16:44.880 |
But nonetheless, nonetheless, it's still just as profound. 00:16:49.640 |
And I want to give my take on what headship means just for the sake of talking about it, 00:16:55.600 |
We noticed that there was lordship, there was authority, there was a provision, there 00:17:01.120 |
In the passage that we read just in Ephesians, there was love, okay? 00:17:06.320 |
There was sanctifying and the cause of growth of a wife, all that kind of stuff. 00:17:11.880 |
For me, when I think about headship as a man, okay, again, not exactly one-to-one with Christ, 00:17:18.400 |
but as a man, I think about responsibility, okay? 00:17:25.920 |
And when I, you know, sometimes I sit and I counsel younger ladies like, "Hey, what 00:17:33.520 |
And they'll say, "I want a leader and I want this and I want that." 00:17:38.560 |
I said, "Well, he's got to be hardworking, not lazy. 00:17:42.960 |
He's got to know what he's doing and he's got to be able to have the strength to push 00:17:47.960 |
I'm kind of like, "Yeah, but I know some ladies who have husbands like that, but they're 00:17:55.440 |
I'm like, "Because leadership in that scenario is CEO. 00:18:11.480 |
Are those aspects necessary as a man to be a leader? 00:18:19.760 |
That's not what leadership, all of it, entails. 00:18:23.800 |
In my mind, sometimes, actually, I can give guys slack in the sense that, yeah, sometimes 00:18:33.160 |
They're trying to lead others and convince them that they need to go that way. 00:18:38.140 |
They're trying to have strength when perhaps they're timid and weak. 00:18:41.180 |
But the guys that I really like to see as the guys who said, like, as soon as they saw 00:18:45.640 |
the need to make a decision, as soon as they saw a need to motivate, they felt the responsibility. 00:18:53.680 |
As soon as they saw a woman that they started to like, it wasn't like, "I like her. 00:19:00.280 |
It was, "I want to take responsibility over her so that her well-being is my responsibility. 00:19:08.280 |
That to me is a hard attitude of, like, "I want to take in." 00:19:14.120 |
And to me, whenever you see the word "headship" of Christ, immediately it talks about, and 00:19:22.440 |
And so for me, that's the way I think about headship for a man, is this guy is absolutely 00:19:30.240 |
That's a guy who I think would be a good leader. 00:19:32.120 |
Yeah, he might struggle with making a decision. 00:19:34.160 |
He might be one of those guys who sits there and deliberates, but he is going to kill himself 00:19:38.160 |
to try to do it because he feels the responsibility. 00:19:43.360 |
So, free tip to all you ladies who are single. 00:19:46.440 |
Find the guy who feels the weight of responsibility on his shoulders. 00:19:51.840 |
So now, in thinking about that, so he says very clearly, here's the principle, all right? 00:19:57.600 |
There exists a dynamic relationship to which headship can occur, and this headship includes 00:20:04.360 |
a lot of concepts like authority and responsibility and all that kind of stuff. 00:20:07.840 |
And he says, "God over Christ, Christ over man, and man over woman." 00:20:20.480 |
What you see is the application of that principle, of the principle of authority and submission 00:20:30.640 |
And so, if I could have, Jeremy, can you read that one, verses four through six, paragraph? 00:20:37.840 |
Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 00:20:43.600 |
But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her 00:20:49.320 |
For she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. 00:20:52.320 |
For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off. 00:21:00.040 |
But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her 00:21:08.560 |
So, in looking at this, I've got a couple sub-bullet points, because it's kind of important 00:21:16.240 |
Do you guys remember, I don't know if you guys are, I don't know if I actually covered 00:21:26.680 |
Corinth is located, if you can think of like, you know the Panama Canal south of here? 00:21:32.720 |
Those points of canals are really important for trade and all that kind of stuff. 00:21:36.440 |
Corinth was right near one of those, and then it's really close to Athens, really close 00:21:41.960 |
So, very close to the major trade route of Greece. 00:21:48.360 |
The culture of that time is very different from the Jews. 00:21:52.160 |
The Jews actually meant for a lot of covering. 00:21:56.280 |
And a lot of the Jews, you know how Moses veiled his face coming down from the mountain? 00:22:00.920 |
So the Jews actually, for the guys, they covered their face, thinking that was the right thing 00:22:05.400 |
Well, in that culture, in the kind of Greek and Roman influenced cultures, the ladies 00:22:14.800 |
And the thing about it is, he's saying essentially, it's ridiculous. 00:22:18.080 |
In your culture, in your custom, it's ridiculous for a man to have his head covered. 00:22:28.440 |
And so, I guess to put it into a modern day thing, it'd be like, this Sunday I'm preaching. 00:22:35.160 |
And what if I got onto the pulpit with a dress? 00:22:40.800 |
Right off the bat, people would have problems. 00:22:53.080 |
And then someone would be like, yeah, but it's not right. 00:22:55.480 |
And I could argue and be like, well, in the end, what's your criteria? 00:23:04.360 |
And then the ladies would be like, no, because that's what girls do. 00:23:11.360 |
Like, in your culture, if a man were to do this, then it'd be disgraceful. 00:23:17.400 |
So these are very like relative terms, right? 00:23:20.600 |
It's not easy to just cut a line, but like, okay, if you wear this, like a Jewish hat, 00:23:27.760 |
So he acknowledges the culture and says, the custom of their time, and says, women typically 00:23:35.000 |
As a matter of fact, if you Google on your phones or whatever, Greek veil, you're going 00:23:41.640 |
to see a bunch of veil and you're going to see a bunch of wedding veils and stuff because 00:23:45.640 |
our current model of marriage comes from rich Greek people back in the way day. 00:23:52.600 |
It's the same, a lot of the same customs and the veil and the white gowns, all that kind 00:23:59.600 |
So you see these veils that the ladies wore and the veils were covering that a lot of 00:24:06.720 |
Married ladies would wear veils and sometimes their veils would be bigger because they had 00:24:10.720 |
this kind of mentality of like their beauty and their presence is reserved for their husband 00:24:15.600 |
kind of thing, which again, we can look at that culture and be like, dang, that was super 00:24:22.040 |
But you look at their rationale and it's like, hmm, that's how they applied. 00:24:26.280 |
So anyway, all that to say is it was very common. 00:24:29.280 |
It was something that distinguished between the ladies and the guys and Apostle Paul acknowledges 00:24:35.560 |
But we have to ask the question, but what's the big deal? 00:24:41.000 |
Aren't they free from the regulations of pagan world, of the pagan world? 00:24:51.960 |
From your reading from verses two through 16, what is the big deal that Apostle Paul 00:24:57.400 |
saying like this custom that you have in your culture, you know, you can't just like 00:25:05.480 |
Women can't just, you know, uncover herself and then come into the worship service and 00:25:19.360 |
It can be distracting, but why is it distracting? 00:25:24.480 |
I guess from the passage that we're studying today, are there any clues as to why he thinks 00:25:55.840 |
So in verse 10, if you look in verse 10, it says, therefore the woman ought to have a 00:26:01.960 |
symbol of authority on her head because of the angels. 00:26:07.000 |
So essentially what he's saying, that first part's the key. 00:26:10.360 |
The woman, what he wants is the woman has to have a symbol of authority on her head. 00:26:16.200 |
Now the reason why a symbol is italicized in your Bible is because those words aren't 00:26:22.800 |
The way it reads in the Greek is she ought to have authority on her head. 00:26:30.880 |
She's got to have the representation of authority because that's what it was back then. 00:26:35.600 |
If there was a group, there was a group, I guess in every like major, I guess, how would 00:26:43.640 |
Nation, era, empire, you know, Assyrians even, there were movements of liberalism and there 00:26:52.400 |
And sometimes the way that the ladies would look is they would have their head shaved. 00:26:56.640 |
And that's why in the verse he says, essentially, if she's going to uncover her hair, then let 00:27:03.680 |
To have a woman who had her head shaved was either a woman who was caught in adultery 00:27:08.240 |
or prostitution, or she was like a zealous feminist who was trying to make a statement. 00:27:15.960 |
And the feeling in his mind is like, if you do that, you come in and you're just like, 00:27:21.840 |
to us, it's like nobody wears anything like that. 00:27:25.360 |
I was trying to think of a corollary, but I couldn't really think of one. 00:27:28.840 |
I mean, there's, I can't think of something that a person would do who would come in here 00:27:34.200 |
and they would have essentially an expression of complete rebellion and saying, you know 00:27:42.760 |
We don't even have something like that in this age. 00:27:45.200 |
But in Apostle Paul's eyes, that's what it would represent. 00:27:48.720 |
So the principle in order to get around it, huh? 00:28:00.800 |
But if let's say, if let's say a husband and wife had their wedding ring and the husband 00:28:06.000 |
was saying like, Oh, I really want you to wear it. 00:28:08.000 |
And the wife was like, no, you know, and she refused it. 00:28:14.320 |
I don't wear it because I gained way too much weight since I got married and it doesn't 00:28:31.280 |
So the big deal is that it was a symbol of authority and because of what the principle 00:28:42.920 |
If you would scan with your eyes the rest of chapter 11, okay, look at what it's talking 00:29:12.880 |
And then I'm going to ask you the question, how does that rest of the chapter tie into 00:29:25.480 |
How would it, Oh, how would it tie into the question of, you know, why would he make a 00:29:41.360 |
If you just continue to look at the rest of the chapter, chapter 11, how does that all 00:29:46.880 |
In terms of the issue of authority or head shifting to a more independent space of the 00:30:08.000 |
When you, when you mentioned verse 16, so yeah, after verse 16, it starts talking about 00:30:13.000 |
communion, the Lord's table, all that kind of stuff. 00:30:15.880 |
I'm asking how does that section, father section, sorry, contribute to this idea of why Apostle 00:30:21.840 |
Paul would make a big deal about head coverings. 00:30:39.080 |
I'm getting at something more specific to, let's say if you look in starting from verse 00:30:46.880 |
17 and says, but in giving this instruction, I do not praise you because you came together 00:30:53.000 |
For in the first place, when you came together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among 00:31:02.120 |
So he's looking at a church that is struggling to stay together. 00:31:06.640 |
And then if you start having an attitude of like, forget authority, I don't want to be 00:31:13.400 |
If you have an attitude of, I'm not subject to anybody. 00:31:15.740 |
If you have an attitude of, I'm not submitting to you, you know what I mean? 00:31:25.040 |
And so Apostle Paul makes a big deal of this both because of what it represents for, yes, 00:31:30.240 |
created order and what we're going to talk about, but also for the sake of greater church 00:31:36.280 |
And so he talks about the kind of, um, and the next segment he starts to defend then 00:31:48.160 |
Let's move there right now for seven through 10. 00:31:56.480 |
Sincere, can you read verse seven through 10? 00:31:57.480 |
For a man ought not to have his head covered in truth, in the glory of God, but the woman 00:31:59.480 |
For man did not make the woman, but woman for man. 00:32:00.480 |
For indeed, man was not created for woman, but woman for man. 00:32:01.480 |
Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of the glory on her head, because it is a 00:32:20.520 |
I remember when I first as a young Christian read this passage being like, dang, you know, 00:32:27.920 |
in the sense that perhaps a lady could read this in the wrong way and be like, dude, the 00:32:33.280 |
Bible is very, in many ways, diminishing the value or the worth of a woman. 00:32:39.360 |
But let's take a closer look at the kind of rationale and reasons apostle Paul is giving 00:32:45.280 |
in defending the principle of, hey, men have authority and headship and the ladies have 00:32:56.060 |
How would you define the kind of argument he gives there? 00:33:00.220 |
To say that, oh, he is the image and glory of God and she is the glory of a man. 00:33:06.700 |
The greater to the lesser or lesser to the greater. 00:33:25.940 |
He's talking about man's reflection of God's image, woman's inspection of glory of man. 00:33:35.340 |
But what I'm kind of pointing to is the idea of, he's kind of referring to the created 00:33:45.960 |
So for the blank there, if you want to write created nature, what I'm talking about is 00:33:50.700 |
a concept more of just simply the image, the nature by which we were created. 00:33:56.400 |
If you were to think of our nature, it's hard to describe. 00:34:02.820 |
But when we look in Genesis, the way that the scriptures describe our nature, it repeatedly 00:34:08.620 |
talks about being in the image of God, right? 00:34:13.340 |
And so this is an aspect of just the nature of how we are created and the nature of who 00:34:22.300 |
And then, verse eight tied very closely with that, when he says, "For man does not originate 00:34:29.020 |
from woman, but woman from man," he is talking about not only just the nature of creation, 00:34:40.340 |
And in 1 Timothy 2.11, when it starts talking about actual ministry positions of teaching 00:34:47.620 |
and authority, Apostle Paul gives, again, this argument of the order of creation for 00:34:58.980 |
And then number three, in verse nine, it says, "For indeed, man was not created for the woman's 00:35:22.460 |
So, in thinking about that a little bit, I gave you this kind of extreme scenario where 00:35:36.260 |
This lady is incredibly, I don't know, esteemed in every other aspect of life, whether it 00:35:44.500 |
be her community, her work, et cetera, academically even. 00:35:49.620 |
And she takes this position of like, "Wow, I'm not sure what's going on, but I have leadership 00:36:01.660 |
And to tell you honestly, in the Christian community now, I would say it's almost 50/50. 00:36:08.780 |
People who believe that, "Oh, women should be able to have leadership positions in church. 00:36:14.860 |
Or on the other side is just simply, "No, women and men are complementary, but we have 00:36:25.740 |
I think the Christian community is almost divided and continually there are more people 00:36:29.900 |
who would believe that women should have equal or like positions and opportunities within 00:36:38.020 |
So for you guys, if you ever come across a situation like that, obviously here are 00:36:46.500 |
But my question really is, what makes sense to you? 00:36:51.220 |
And how would you, I guess you can share just some of the things we talked about a little 00:36:57.300 |
Although, yes, that's an agenda and a practice of the secular world, this doesn't take place 00:37:07.060 |
What I think is important to recognize, like in your warm up question, is that friendship, 00:37:55.380 |
Being equal with somebody doesn't mean you should have the same role as somebody. 00:37:56.380 |
You can see that very clearly by going to the head of Christ as God. 00:38:02.380 |
And so that means that man can be head of woman without them being unequal in some way. 00:38:21.380 |
The fact that the instruction for roles in the church is irrelevant to roles in the business 00:38:32.380 |
I mentioned in the group, Proverbs 31, the woman is shown as being good in business. 00:38:43.380 |
It has nothing to do with the leadership, the role hierarchy of man and woman, the house, 00:39:03.740 |
Is there any questions so far about this topic or the passage so far? 00:39:29.980 |
And I hope that when we do talk about this, I definitely didn't want to come off studying 00:39:36.300 |
We're just going to apply it, read it and weep. 00:39:38.700 |
You know, it's just not the way I want to approach it. 00:39:43.140 |
I think, you know, for example, if someone did, like, let's say a sister came in here 00:39:50.300 |
and perhaps she came from a background where it was very much like, no, women, we need 00:39:56.260 |
We've been suppressed for way too long, that kind of thing. 00:39:59.500 |
I think there's a sense in which this passage does both of harmonizing. 00:40:05.260 |
And I think I always appreciate the approach of Apostle Paul because at certain areas he 00:40:09.540 |
can be very strong, at certain areas he's very cautious. 00:40:13.660 |
And I think he can predict that perhaps sometimes we take certain principles like, hey, Christ 00:40:19.860 |
is the head of the man, man is head of the woman. 00:40:25.140 |
And there have been guys, there have been people who said, so in everything, the Bible 00:40:33.940 |
I don't think that's the way God wanted us to apply the passage, you know? 00:40:38.220 |
If you look at the next segment really quickly, over here in verses 11 through 12, it says, 00:40:48.020 |
and we're going to start rounding things up a little bit. 00:40:52.740 |
It says, "However, in the Lord neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent 00:40:58.660 |
For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the 00:41:07.060 |
And I ask, what are some of the harmonizing principles given in these verses? 00:41:14.140 |
It's pretty clear and obvious what are some of those principles, but some may be not so 00:41:19.780 |
So if you guys can, throw out some principles that we can glean from verses 11 through 12. 00:41:34.600 |
So if a guy were to make the argument of like, oh yeah, you know, as you see created order, 00:41:39.540 |
we came first, you know, and you just keep emphasizing the first, like, I was here before 00:41:44.500 |
And it's like, yeah, but subsequent to Adam, which you are not, every single one of you 00:42:03.260 |
And that one is, you can stem a lot of different principles from. 00:42:06.660 |
For example, I think sometimes, I have talked to sisters who struggle with this concept 00:42:13.580 |
and it's not so much because they're defiant or rebellious, but they struggle because they 00:42:17.180 |
don't know how that's supposed to exactly look like, you know? 00:42:24.100 |
You know, they struggle with fear of like, okay, men are supposed to be in an authoritative 00:42:29.540 |
role, but the fact of the matter is, the authority of men is complex. 00:42:35.100 |
And the propensity is that when you have authority, your authority is used for selfish means. 00:42:39.860 |
So what if I end up underneath that kind of scenario? 00:42:46.660 |
Am I only supposed to submit to religious authority? 00:42:52.860 |
And so sometimes I ease those concerns by saying, you know, when you think about even 00:42:59.660 |
your submission, your submission is not like independent of God. 00:43:05.940 |
It's still underneath God's provision, care, and his own authority, right? 00:43:11.420 |
So some people fear being, I guess, dominated by a man's authority, even if that man is 00:43:18.220 |
But I remind them, your submission is delegated to you by God. 00:43:22.660 |
A God who is careful, a God who has ultimate authority over our lives. 00:43:27.500 |
Likewise for the guys, their authority is delegated to them, underneath God who is the 00:44:20.780 |
So those circumstances are incredibly, did you guys hear? 00:44:23.540 |
It's just basically two non-Christians get married, wife becomes a Christian, husband 00:44:34.780 |
Why, typically you want to start asking about, okay, how vehement is he? 00:44:43.620 |
You have to know the scenario as to how he's going to react if her safety is in question. 00:44:50.580 |
Those things have to be all considered before we ever give somebody like that advice. 00:44:53.500 |
We can't just be like, well, you gotta obey God, so just gotta do it, you know? 00:44:57.700 |
Because some people experience greater amount of persecution even in the home for doing 00:45:04.260 |
But it's that aspect of, regardless of the circumstance, obviously every Christian is 00:45:09.340 |
called to continue that strive and keep on persevering. 00:45:13.920 |
So first it might be testing the waters to see if she can go, even if he's resisting 00:45:19.080 |
and all that kind of stuff, to see if she can do it. 00:45:21.800 |
If it becomes something more volatile, it's like, man, if I do this, then perhaps kids 00:45:25.940 |
are involved, the kids are going to suffer, you know? 00:45:29.620 |
Or she's going to suffer, then you have to find different alternatives. 00:45:33.740 |
Definitely seeking help and all that kind of stuff is good. 00:45:35.660 |
But again, it's definitely, I think, the admonition always is to strive to persevere so that even 00:45:42.960 |
the husband sees, gosh, my wife is dedicated to this beyond measure. 00:45:54.540 |
I guess the extreme of that is like, well, we're taking it to its logical conclusion. 00:46:26.740 |
So the logic is clear, but it's that issue of like, when do you decide this is a command 00:46:38.340 |
So for example, if the husband says, go and kill that person. 00:46:50.140 |
And I read an article recently, one of the sisters posted it up about a wife who was 00:47:09.060 |
in a home where the husband was, I guess, not necessarily like a fanatic or, you know, 00:47:14.820 |
incredibly devout Muslim, but he was a Muslim. 00:47:18.100 |
So there was no way that he was going to allow her to go to church. 00:47:22.020 |
But the fact of the matter is I was very challenged because the lady said she tried in every single 00:47:26.940 |
way and she felt a great conviction at least to denounce Islam. 00:47:32.060 |
And that's a great, that's a step that she felt a conviction of that's an obedience to 00:47:36.740 |
the Lord, which I would say, yeah, if you convert to Christianity, you can't, you can't 00:47:41.180 |
just like lie and be like, no, I'm Muslim still. 00:47:45.260 |
So in those types of scenarios, she chose to draw a line where she said, I will obey 00:47:49.540 |
to this degree and incur whatever wrath may come. 00:47:53.580 |
But on the other side, she's being creative and trying to, trying her best, you know? 00:48:00.340 |
I think what Leo is referring to is the verse in Hebrews. 00:48:02.340 |
We cannot forsake the assembly of one another. 00:48:06.340 |
It's pretty much saying don't forsake the synagogue, which would be today, the church. 00:48:26.380 |
I mean, it comes down to like, you know, the husband's going to beat her or something. 00:48:35.380 |
So, so moving forward and kind of wrapping this study up. 00:48:43.980 |
It's a, this is a topic that again, is controversial to some degree and people debate about it. 00:48:48.300 |
And some of you guys are like, I'm not interested because I already hold a stance of like complimentarian 00:48:53.180 |
and I understand husbands are men should lead and the wives just submit and loving care 00:49:02.260 |
Because there's actually, again, a bigger thought that he's talking about. 00:49:06.180 |
Um, and the final arguments, again, we hit a lot of verses today, so sorry, this is kind 00:49:13.180 |
And the final arguments, you can see that he is giving a final argument of saying, Hey, 00:49:19.620 |
There should be a distinction between man and woman. 00:49:21.980 |
Um, this is something that it's just by nature you see, but then he ends by saying, but if 00:49:26.820 |
one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice nor have the churches of 00:49:37.100 |
If one is inclined to be contentions, we have no other practice nor have the churches of 00:49:42.780 |
Because I think he's getting to that idea again, starting from the very beginning of 00:49:48.140 |
the book of Corinthians, we noticed that the church has struggled intensely with a sense 00:49:54.960 |
They had stuff about, you know, their association with different leaders. 00:49:58.700 |
I'm of Paul, I'm of Peter, I'm of Paulus and all that kind of stuff. 00:50:02.740 |
We noticed that there was a great divide when people were starting to sue each other. 00:50:05.660 |
It's like they're taking each other to court. 00:50:08.540 |
And then we're seeing various things that divide even in their immorality. 00:50:12.540 |
You know, when there is even sexual perversion in the church that actually divides the church 00:50:18.180 |
When there's adultery, it divides the church. 00:50:22.940 |
And then he sees people here, again, although it's gender specific, essentially you have 00:50:29.720 |
people who are being contentious with each other. 00:50:36.600 |
And when he says, "Hey, we have no other practice," he's not just simply saying, 00:50:43.160 |
He's saying, "None of the apostles and none of the other churches teach anything 00:50:48.120 |
Should you so decide to refuse my teaching right now, there is nothing else. 00:50:52.640 |
That the apostles of the other churches are teaching aside from this." 00:50:58.400 |
And I want you guys just to see that as he's thinking about just the topic of, let's 00:51:02.440 |
say, gender and gender roles and what men and women should fulfill, he is truly thinking 00:51:08.180 |
about the greater unity of the whole church and how it affects it. 00:51:14.120 |
And for me, when I think about that, I realize, again, Apostle Paul is trying to teach us 00:51:24.240 |
I think of it, this is just a side point as a way of conclusion. 00:51:31.880 |
It's not a person, in my mind, who is just simply disciplined. 00:51:35.080 |
It's not someone who, in my mind, who, I don't know, has made the steps in life. 00:51:40.760 |
Meaning like, they now have a job, they now have a career, they now have children, they 00:51:49.840 |
But just like a man is supposed to have a sense of responsibility over a wife and his 00:51:55.880 |
kids, I think when people are willing to see beyond themselves, beyond their own rights, 00:52:02.640 |
beyond the whole contention over the meat and contention over this, but they're willing 00:52:07.560 |
to see the greater church and the health of the church and to take responsibility to that 00:52:14.280 |
to the degree that they're willing to fulfill what role God has placed for them, whether 00:52:23.920 |
They're willing to let go of their competition. 00:52:26.600 |
In my mind, I see an individual who is matured. 00:52:30.520 |
So again, I want to just say that as a means to say this is not just a study and like, 00:52:34.560 |
"Hey, let's learn to debate and controversy over men and women roles." 00:52:45.960 |
From your discussion where one role is different from the four, we're kind of stuck on how 00:52:54.960 |
to defend the answer or is it just talking specifically to that context of that church 00:53:09.960 |
We're just kind of stuck on how to defend that. 00:53:12.960 |
So in terms of defending that, I would look to the specifics of the passage. 00:53:18.960 |
And essentially, the specifics of the passage says very clearly that hair covering is a 00:53:29.320 |
And so there are many symbols that culturally we have that represent something. 00:53:34.160 |
And so in my mind, Apostle Paul, he is very much more concerned about the principle of 00:53:38.960 |
headship and authority and he is acknowledging the cultural symbol that's in use at that 00:53:45.960 |
Clothing changes a lot in the day and throughout time. 00:53:50.960 |
And right now, we don't have anything culturally that marks off, "Oh, you're a married woman 00:53:54.960 |
or you're not a married woman or you're a married man, not a married man." 00:53:57.960 |
But there are things that also, even in this day, that represent something to the degree 00:54:02.280 |
of are we associating with something that's holy or are we associating with something 00:54:08.040 |
So I would use that means to say that here, just simply ask, so the public wearing a lot 00:54:14.720 |
of that kind of stuff, is that a universal principle for all time? 00:54:19.840 |
The universal principle for all time is the roles. 00:54:24.560 |
Husband, head, wife, submitting to that leadership. 00:54:30.280 |
But the actual application of the head wearing would be a symbol. 00:54:37.080 |
I have a question, but it's a little bit, I think, maybe not so much on the principles, 00:54:40.080 |
The scenario that you give, I mean, I understand it, but I think it's very singular in the 00:54:41.080 |
sense that it kind of pictures or portrays women sort of being aggressive and asserting 00:54:43.080 |
So I mean, I think even other women would find women like this obnoxious. 00:54:45.080 |
Inside a church where there are women who are leaders, I mean, I would have to presume 00:55:13.080 |
that the majority, like both women and men, felt like she was gifted and put her in that 00:55:25.640 |
And so when we talk about gender roles and gender roles inside the church, are you kind 00:55:31.440 |
of saying that churches that decide to do that are wrong in their application? 00:55:42.000 |
So to answer your question about just simply the churches that have ladies who are, let's 00:55:48.640 |
say, teaching as pastors and whatnot, do I believe they're wrong in their application? 00:55:54.560 |
I believe they're wrong in their application. 00:55:56.680 |
To address, yeah, the example I gave is a very kind of singular scenario of a woman 00:56:01.640 |
who happens to want, has an ambition for that. 00:56:05.640 |
Nowadays there are a lot of churches that encourage women and place people in those 00:56:09.440 |
positions or even seek out specifically women because they want that diversity. 00:56:13.600 |
And in that kind of scenario, where do I put the blame? 00:56:18.600 |
Yeah, it would be on the leadership of the church. 00:56:22.040 |
This is one of those issues where I feel a level of confidence to say, yes, the application 00:56:26.800 |
is just flat wrong because of the fact that the biblical passages that we see, they're 00:56:33.400 |
not kind of implicit or vague, but not only is it explicit, but Apostle Paul gives timeless 00:56:43.820 |
Timeless reason as in creation order, God's intention, God's purposes, that kind of stuff. 00:56:57.760 |
Does any of you guys have any other questions on that? 00:57:04.400 |
Let's take a moment to pray and then we'll wrap up. 00:57:18.400 |
God, you are the one in your scriptures that said that in Christ there is no man or woman 00:57:28.040 |
We have been bought by the precious blood and each one of us as recipients of your grace, 00:57:36.000 |
Father, I thank you for continuing to teach us wisdom. 00:57:39.680 |
I pray, Father God, that although this is one of those just debated topics, I pray, 00:57:44.520 |
Father, that we would approach it with great wisdom and tact. 00:57:48.000 |
I pray also that we would approach it with great obedience and submission to your word. 00:57:53.480 |
I pray, Father God, that every single one of us would continue to just mature in our 00:58:00.320 |
Lord, as you've been challenging us through the book of Corinthians to see beyond ourselves, 00:58:05.600 |
to see to the needs of the church, to see to the health of the body, I pray, Father 00:58:10.280 |
God, with mature eyes we'd be able to not only assess that, but God, contribute and 00:58:16.280 |
I pray, Father Lord, that you would be with us and sing Christ.