he's optimizing the view now i'm optimizing for shade actually i'm trying to get out of the oh christ you look like a i mean this dipshit showed up he showed up to my beach club yesterday and it was basically like someone had taken a mummy and then wrapped a mummy inside of a white sheet and then presented him at this at this place oh he lathered in his like spf 500 and so i laughed at one point i said at one point let's go for a walk and this had the nerve to grab his cell phone and a battery pack for the cell phone i forced him to leave the phone he felt naked then i made him take off his shoes and socks and then i tried to get him to take his shirt off we got almost all the way there yeah that makes sense all right everybody here we go three two let your winners ride brain man david sacks and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy hey everybody hey everybody welcome to everybody's favorite game show guess who's not in italy with us today david sacks wearing sunglasses with the view of an ocean clearly on a nautical vessel and i am in an old apartment in the center of florence and chamath is at his hideaway somewhere in the countryside and friedberg is in front of a abstract piece of art two people high on crystal meth trying to break into his car in san francisco i'm no i'm no longer a san francisco resident i'm proud and sad to say after 20 years of living in the city i have relocated still in a not to a nondescript location still in california but uh you're in the bay area enough in the bay area so with us again obviously rain man the dictator and back from a week off the queen of quinoa what ha tell us uh queen you had a big week you had uh some nice ink come out some press about the production board raising some monster round and you took the week off give us the feedback what what was it like taking a week off from the pod and uh now you're getting press and you're becoming a public figure uh what's it been like for you the past week and tell everybody what went down with this new fund you know my strategy was to take a week off from the pod and then have the ratings go up and then i could quietly and nicely exit um as the as a member of the cast but uh unfortunately i've been drawn as al pacino said just when i thought i was out i am back in so uh it's i missed you guys so much for joining us today we're going to be talking about the all-in pod and what it's like to be a part of the all-in pod and i'm so grateful that i'm actually a part of the all-in pod and i've been a part of the all-in pod for the last three years so i've been a part of the all-in pod for the last three years so i'm so happy to be here and i'm so excited to be back and i'm so happy to be back and i'm so happy to be a part of the all-in pod i missed you guys i actually listened to the all-in pod for the first time ever last week you guys did a great job you've been complaining these other last 41 times without even listening to it you know um i will say i listened to it while we're on it but this was um actually really good and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing this together and i'm glad that we're doing 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It gives an investor a lot of confidence because it's like here's a really smart guy who's done this before he's going to stay in this swim lane and do something really specific here and now I can understand how it fits into the rest of my portfolio. So I think that there is a lot of value for investors in a bunch of different ways.

So I don't know, I'm super excited. I appreciate that. I mean, I think like one of the things that mattered to me, Jason, and the way I kind of frame it like a lot of people think Oh, venture studio. It's about how many things you crank out. That's like Y Combinators model.

For me, it's not about how many businesses you start, it's about absolute value creation. So you know, you have to do the things that you have the resourcing to do with the objective being to drive business value as a whole. So that means doing one thing doing three things doing five things.

It's not about how many things you know, whatever the right balance is. It's not about just cranking out businesses, because each one of these things we have to continue to be active. And we need to continue to build. And when we start a business, we reserve a good chunk of the business as equity for the team that works on it.

So it's not like we're 100% owners, right? We've got to get the right people, they've got to feel like an act like owners in that business with us, you wind up owning 50% or ballpark 40%. What do you think it actually varies quite a bit. So you know, without getting into too many details, I mean, you know, when we start the business, we're the majority owner.

And in many cases, when we've brought in other investors over time, we get diluted down and become a minority owner. So 30% or something like that, like as if you did the series A or something, but but in many cases, we end up being you know, we want to continuously fund some of these businesses, because it may not make sense to bring in outside investors.

And and we'll continue to be the majority owner. And but we create an independent board, we make sure that the team feels like it's an independent business. And we give them a lot of infrastructure and tooling, finance, HR, legal facilities, support, recruiting support, etc. And obviously templates for how to succeed and playbooks and so on.

So that's a lot of what I would call our platform value. Amazing. Another bestie housekeeping. By the way, David Sachs is an investor in TPB I don't know if you guys knew that. Good job Sachs. Is that another unicorn for me? Technically, yes. Look at you. Well, in other news, Sachs, this is like the victory lap episode.

Sachs, you announced you're closing $1.1 billion with a B in craft's third fund. And explicitly talking about focus to Chamath's point, explicit focus on marketplaces and SaaS. Maybe you could explain how long it took you to raise the 1.1 billion. I think the first one was 300 million. The second was 600 million.

So you're basically doubling each time. Almost. I mean, the first one was 350. Second fund was 510. This one is 1.12 billion. It's going to be 612 million for venture, which is C series A series B and 510 for growth. And yeah, we are focused on SaaS and marketplaces.

I kind of run the SaaS practice and my thesis is really the same as it was when I was doing Yammer, which is apply consumer growth tactics to enterprise software, make it go viral inside companies, sort of sell it bottom up through the average employee as opposed to top down through the CIO.

And then the other GP in the fund, Jeff Flohr is focused on marketplaces. He was the founder CEO of StubHub, which was one of the first companies to do that. And then we have a couple of other companies that are doing that. Jeff is one of the original e-commerce marketplaces on the web.

And so he leads the marketplace practice. And those are also, you know, I would say along with SaaS marketplaces are the best kind of internet businesses to create. And so we've just decided to focus on those two areas. And that's kind of enough for the world for us. And in related news, your project call-in, which is a podcasting plus casual audio application, has been doing great in beta.

And I'm proud to announce that we had a small allocation for our syndicate, thesyndicate.com, which is my syndicate, and then the all-in syndicate, which we created as a lark. Between those two syndicates, my syndicate had 900 requests to invest over, I think, $7 million. We had a small $1 million allocation.

And we basically did a lottery. So something like one in, I don't know, seven or six got it. And then the all-in syndicate also filled up. And then the all-in syndicate, no carry, no fees. Everybody gets a free ride, thanks to David Sachs. And that's our first all-in syndicate chipping away at my core business and eating my lunch.

Thank you. And the all-in syndicate is going to be $250,000. It's $250,000, $1,000 checks with no fee, no carry. And the company is paying the administrative expense of that. We just want to let you know. We're going to let you know. 250 of our listeners wet their beaks. Yep.

Absolutely. Is it open yet, Sachs? Can anyone download the app and use it yet? No, it's still in private beta. We're going to open up soon. We'll certainly announce on the pod. It's getting better. I was looking at it the other day. It's getting really tight. I mean, can I talk a little bit about it?

Or do you not want to keep it more secret? Yeah, go for it. Yeah. No, go for it. It's fine. Well, I mean, here's the genius of it. And I mean that sincerely, not just because you gave me an allocation. But Clubhouse, when you go to Clubhouse... If you miss the great conversation, it's gone.

And Clubhouse has really bad audio quality and the rooms are... And there's really... There's clubs as a concept. But in call-in, everybody creates a show. Then the show is syndicated to an RSS feed like a podcast. So you can basically start your own podcast with no staff, no post-production.

You just talk and then it goes out to an RSS feed. So we're thinking, David and I, of doing like a post-production. And then, you know, we're like, okay, well, we're going to do a show after all in like two days after just to talk to the fans and do like a little private group thing.

But it's kind of like a really nice overlap of podcasting. And yeah. Well, I was going to say it's basically long tail podcasting using social audio as the gateway drug to long tail podcasting. Is the company worth $4 billion yet? Have we internally marked up the round four times like Andreessen Horowitz did with Clubhouse?

Let me ask, let me get Chamath in the conversation. Chamath, what do you think of a venture firm making a seed investment at 100 million, then a billion, then at 4 billion for a product that, you know, is largely sideways? This is like internal three bets and marking it up 10x and then 4x.

So 40x lift over three rounds. What do we think of this? I think the best venture firms shouldn't give a shit about any company. And I don't think... I don't think that they really do. Because if they're very savvy, they should be doing exactly what Andreessen... You've seen the articles about Tiger, you've seen all these other folks.

The real question is maybe if you want, can you please explain what they're doing? And what they're doing is, to me, if you understand the investing landscape makes a ton of sense, which is technology used to be the small niche. And so we used to only get, you know, when I started Social Capital, there was probably 25 to $30 billion a year flowing into venture, just in 2011.

Fast forward a decade, we have like $120 billion a year going into tech, and it's going up like crazy. And if you're the best brands, you're going to get the overwhelming amount of interest from people who want to get into the asset class as the asset class expands, right?

So if all of a sudden, you know, you decided to... Yeah. Invest in private equity, when private equity was going bonkers, you're not going to take as much of a shot on an emerging manager, you're going to want to take a shot on Blackstone or KKR, right? And that's what's allowed those folks, Carlisle, to scale AUM just unbelievably.

Blackstone I think is past half... Assets under management. Exactly. Half a trillion dollars now at Blackstone. Similarly, there are these indelible brands in venture, and when everybody realizes they need to be long tech... Yeah. ...they jump in. Now, when they do that, you have to understand who these people are.

There are two things that matter. One, they are people like pension funds, and their hurdle rate, meaning, you know, what are they trying to do better than in terms of a rate of return, is in the low to mid single digits. That's really important to know. 8%, 9%, 10%.

Not even. What the stock market? Not even. Not even. 5%, 6%. Okay? Got it. So, you know, these guys have so much money that they would rather, when they spend an hour meeting with you, they'd rather give you a $50 million check than a $5 million check. A $5 million check just compounds their problems.

So, if you put these two things together, it makes a ton of sense for companies like Andreessen to now focus on the velocity of money. Raise a fund, put the money to work, raise a new fund in a very systematic way that everybody can understand and can predict so that Andreessen can tell their LPs on a calendar, "Guys, I'm going to be back to you in 18 months.

I'm going to be back to you in 18 months." "Guys, I'm going to be back to you in a year." And be able to scale the capital. And I think if you look at it in that framework, it explains Andreessen, it explains Excel, it explains Sequoia. And by the way, it's a brilliant strategy because these guys still make 2.5% on the money.

They end up returning the market beta, meaning what the average market would do anyways, plus a little bit of alpha, right? So they'll still do a little bit better than the market, which means they'll be able to raise money infinitely. So if Andreessen and I've had a- Do you mean the public market or the venture market?

So venture market typically does 20%? No, venture market. Venture market. No, but that'll decay, right? So that'll decay down to 10% or 12%. But my point is it's still better than the 5% or 6% these pension funds and other folks need to earn. So today, the goal of every fund that's successful that has a brand, David's included, should be do good deals.

Make sure you're in things that... That can work. And the thing that David has, which other folks don't, is David can help make things work when they're not necessarily obvious, but then pound the money in and then raise more money as fast as you can because then it helps the investor.

That's what they want and they're happy to pay you. And then for you, the GP, you start to make enormous fees and the whole cycle works. So for Andreessen, I think that's the calculus. It's like, "Shit, if I can put 100 million in, that's 100 million less I have in my fund.

Now I can go... I'm 100 million closer to raising the new fund." Okay. Now, the criticism has been, Friedberg, I'll go to you, it's bad hygiene for the same firm to mark up the same product three times. In this case, you know... Clubhouse. What's in it? Clubhouse. So is that a warning sign for you that it's a bubble or it's kind of...

The worst case I've heard is like marking up your own book, self-dealing, whatever. How do you look at that issue, Friedberg? And then I'll go to you, Sax. Well, if it were SpaceX, you would look like a genius. So I think we can criticize it until... Or WhatsApp. Or WhatsApp.

And Sequoia has done this many times where they've been the lead in multiple rounds in the company and they have high conviction in the quality of a business and they don't want to bring other investors in. And when you have high conviction and you can continuously buy more of the stock and buy more of the company and be a bigger owner, and then it works out, you look like a freaking genius.

And so I don't want to criticize the investing style of these guys. I mean, time will tell if they made good bets or not as a whole. You can kind of make the case maybe that they're trying to be asset managers and drive assets under management up and gain more fees.

But I think LPs are a little shrewder than that. They'll kind of take a smarter look at that. At the end of the day, the guys that are known for doing this like Sequoia and Founders Fund and others have had incredible returns by doing exactly this. So the strategy does work.

And you just have to do it. Yeah. You just have to do it with the right businesses. And I think that will demonstrate the quality of your investing acumen. All right, Sax, any further thoughts on that? The marking up your own book, is that something you plan on doing with this new fund and having the growth?

And how would you look at, hey, call in starts getting some traction. Does that mean your growth fund is going to go market up and take those shares? Or do you think that it's better hygiene to have the market price it? Well, I guess it just depends. I mean, the growth fund does give us the idea.

We have the ability to double down at a later stage on our own early stage companies. But you do have to be really sure when you do that, because it does, you know, it certainly raises questions if you're wrong, right, that you wouldn't have with any other investment. So it just it definitely raises the stakes.

You have to be really certain, I guess. But you know, if Colin's a big hit, do we go raise, you know, a growth round? Yeah. And now I think what we might do in that case, because we incubated it is we'd let somebody else lead the round, and then we would participate.

You have some third party setting the price, because we incubated the company. And frankly, that's what we did with the round that you just participated in is craft participated, but we did not set the terms, it was actually Goldcrest and Sequoia co led the round with craft. When you incubate a company like that, let me ask another technical question, because the audience last week, or in the week before really responded well to us talking about this as opposed to COVID and Delta variant, which we'll talk about at the end of the show.

For those people, you can basically turn off the show at 50 minutes or 75 minutes when we talk about the impact of the pandemic. But and I'm hoping you're thinking right now about who's not in Italy, I hope we'll get back to that. When you incubate a company like that, who owns the original founder shares, craft, the organization, David Sachs, the individual came up with it.

What's the inside baseball there? So it's sort of all the above. And we meaning craft. We have a deal with our LP is that's called an LPA limited partner agreement. And one of the things that was negotiated when I found a craft four years ago, was the terms on which craft would incubate deals.

And and so it's all predetermined what I get as a founder, what what our funds get what the LPs get, so there can be no argument about it later. And this is this call it well, we've actually done. Now we have a few. Incubations and development. You know, for me, it's really important to scratch that product itch, you know, I'm originally a product guy.

And, and I, you know, I love investing in helping companies, but occasionally, about I'd say maybe once a year, I get a product idea that I think is worth developing. And so this gives us the ability to incubate it. So we did it a few years ago with a crypto company called Harbor, we ended up selling that company to BitGo, which just announced that the largest acquisition of a crypto company is a galaxy is acquiring it for something like 1.2 billion.

So anyway, so Harbor, I think, will work out, you know, once that deal closes, and Collins, the second one, there's a couple other things that are still, you know, they're too early to talk about, but, but I think Colin will be the second one to launch Chamath as an LP and a lot of funds, what do you think when somebody comes to you and says, I want to in my LPA, my limited partner agreement, have the ability to incubate these companies that a good trend, bad trend?

How do you think about it? I think it's great. I mean, I don't really, you know, push back on a single term in any LPA, because I'm only doing it mostly to support people. And so whatever terms they want, they get from me. And you know, kind of just like, let them go and hope they get lucky, you know, I have a very different approach to, to these kinds of things, because I'm not necessarily trying to compound my capital, I'm just there to sort of enable folks and, you know, take 1% of the fund or sometimes a little bit more.

If I really have an asymmetric view on a specific thing that they're doing, but otherwise, I just take 1% sign the thing and, you know, wish them wish them the best and then try to support them. And that's all I'm trying to do if I believe in what the how they're investing and the deals they've done.

You know, however they do it is up is fine with me, I want to go back to something which is, I actually think it's not a question of hygiene. It's really a question of governance, because when you do these things, and you mark these companies up. The real question if a company stops working, is they tend to have too much money, and then they tend to not have enough governance.

And the reason is because governance typically comes with board diversity and board diversity comes with more and different investors who have different, you know, puts and takes at any given point in time, that diversity is very helpful to keep everybody on the same page and to actually get a decent outcome when things aren't working as much now when things are working.

Obviously, nobody cares. You know, because like, you can just have Jim gets on the board of WhatsApp with Jan, and it's all kind of said and done. It's not been to the right. So as we're saying, when things are when things are good, nobody complains. Yeah, no. And you know, this may be a good jumping off point for, you know, we wanted to talk about Zymergen today, can say one thing for Zymergen, which is just look, I think there's all sorts of new models now with with just sort of tech, and the money going into tech, the venture capital exploding.

There's all these innovative new models, I think it's all for the good. And, you know, I think the CEO that I think is great is what Jack Abraham's done with Atomic. You know, they've produced multiple unicorns out of there, because Jack is just a phenomenal idea guy. He's like a 10x idea guy.

So he then, as part of Atomic comes up with the idea and then brings on a operating partner and that model works for them. And then, you know, he just partnered with Keith Raboy on OpenStore. And Keith decided to become the CEO. And Keith is still a GP at Founders Fund.

And we're seeing like the blending of these models, you know, it used to be that you made the decision to become a VC and your career as a founder was just over, it was like this line that could never be crossed again. And now you're seeing the blurring of these lines.

And look, I think it's good for everybody. Because frankly, when you know, Keith, or, you know, what I'm doing with call in, we remind people that we're still founders, and product people. And you know, not just sort of semi retired guys. But we're still going to be the CEO.

And it's like, it's good for what we do as investors. We saw it with Mike Spicer, who is a partner at Sutter Hill, he incubated it started and was the original head of Snowflake, which was a massive... And before that, he's this is his third. So you know, he did pure storage, he did Snowflake, I think he did laceworks.

Incredible. He's incredible. He's just incredible money. And just just just folks that don't know, Snowflake, you know, it's an enterprise software company, they make software. So he's a venture capitalist, he started this company while working as a venture capitalist. They brought on a great CEO, this incredible guy, later, who's Frank Flutman, who's a legend.

And the company just went public last year, I think, or the year before, and they're worth $82 billion today. And so it really highlights that while this guy is still operating as a venture capitalist and a GP, he's been able to generate incredible returns for his fund, and build amazing businesses at the same time.

So I mean, Spicer, Spicer is a perfect example, because I have known him since like the early 2000s. And at some point, Spicer started this consumer company called Bix. And I was like, we were like an investor, I was a small investor in Bix. And it got I think it got acquired by Yahoo.

And it was always curious, because like Spicer was clearly the smartest one in the room. And it's like, he was kind of grinding this consumer thing. And then he left Yahoo, went to Sutter Hill. And he basically said, you know what, fuck this, I'm going back to my roots, because before that he was a pretty traditional enterprise guy, and he just crushed it.

Michael Jordan was finally like, fuck baseball, I'm going back to basketball. And it's like Reid Hoffman and Neil Boussery at Greylock, right? I mean, these guys are incredible operators, business builders, and they continue to do that work while while being partners in the venture. We have three directions we can go moving on Zymergen.

Zymergen is so interesting. I think we should do it. Okay, let's do Zymergen. I agree. All right. So for people who don't know, Zymergen went public at $31 a share in April, traded as high as $48 shortly after that. And it's a very, very big company. And it's going to be a big company.

And it's going to be a big company. I think it's going to be a big company. I think it's going to be a big company. And I think it's going to be a big company. I think it's going to be a big company. I think it's going to be a big company.

And I think it's going to be a big company. And I think it's going to be a big company. And I think it's going to be a big company. And I think it's going to be a big company. And I think it's going to be a big company. And I think it's going to be a big company.

And I think it's going to be a big company. And I think it's going to be a big company. I didn't ask them exactly the way you said them. But here is the quote of what happened on Tuesday. Zymogen stated the following Zymogen recently became aware of issues with its commercial product pipeline that will impact the company's delivery timeline and revenue projections.

Accordingly, the company no longer expects product revenue in 2021 and expects proven product revenue to be immaterial in 2022. They also announced that the founding CEO Josh Hoffman, who was on this week in startups to maybe a month ago, stepping down as CEO will be replaced. And Zymogen stock then dropped 70% on the news.

I don't know if this was a SPAC or not. SoftBank hyped them. It was a straight IPO and the stock rate 80% yesterday. 80% a day after going public three months ago. So I think Freeburg a good way to start would be what did they say they were going to do?

And then why has this happened? So Zymogen and a couple companies like them started around the same time. Which is around 2014, 2013, 2012, that era, 2015 even. And the promise of these companies is truly to be everyone wants to be this platform for synthetic biology. And what that means is they can take cells and in a smart way, edit the cells and get those cells to make things that humans need.

And so you can kind of think about making materials like silk and leather and plastics. And you can think about making food like egg proteins and milk proteins and so on. And you can think about making food. And you can think about making industrial products, enzymes and things that might be used in laundry detergent, other applications.

And so for years, we've gotten DNA sequencing cheaper. We now have DNA writing and editing cheaper. We've now got other tools to basically screen cells. So we have these, the set of tools where these synthetic biology platform companies popped up and said, "You know what? We're going to put all these tools together and build a platform for editing cells and doing a better job of making things.

And we're going to get into all these markets." And Zymogen, when they first started, they were like, "Oh, we're going to do this. We're going to do that." And they were like, "No, we're going to do that." And they were like, "No, we're going to do that." And they were like, "No, we're going to do that." And they were like, "No, we're going to do that." And then they started, they first started, were like several other companies like them a services business.

So they would go to big partners, like DuPont and say, "Hey, let us make a new enzyme for you. Pay us $25 million upfront. And then we'll get a royalty on the back end when that product eventually goes to market." And they did that for years. They went after insecticidal products, they went after plastics and materials and all sorts of stuff.

And as is the case with a lot of deep tech, it turns out it's really frigging hard. These tools might be there, but like we saw with the clean tech era where everyone thought they could make oil from sugar cane 20 years ago using the same sort of approach to get the unit economics, meaning can you make the product cheap enough, it's really, really hard.

That means you got to get these cells to be just perfect and you got to get the systems to be perfect. And so at the end of the day, they went through a lot of customers at Zymogen that paid them tens of millions of dollars. And Zymogen didn't have anything at the end of the projects to say, "Here's something that works that you guys are willing to pay for that you're going to go take to market." It wasn't that compelling.

The unit economics weren't good enough. And it didn't really have big breakthroughs for any big industry. And so Zymogen, like other companies in the space, pivoted and said, "You know what? We're going to now be a products company. So we're going to make our own products instead of just being a services company." And as they started to get into that, they decided that their first big product would be this kind of plastic for cell phones or what have you, protective film.

And in the meantime, what happened is it takes so much money to do all this R&D, to run all these labs, to have all these robotic arms that they have that are moving test tubes around hundreds of people building and running these labs. And so they've had to raise money.

And in order to raise money, as you guys know, you have to hype the story. You have to say, "Look, we're going to change the world. We're reinventing everything. We're using synthetic biology to rebuild everything, yada, yada." And the story resonates with me because I truly do believe that the potential is there.

But the timing and the sequencing of these things is hard, as is the case with a lot of deep tech companies, when you get too far ahead of the curve, and you start saying, "I'm going to do X, Y, and Z," but you can really only do A, B, and C today.

You raise money saying, "I'm worth billions of dollars." You raise hundreds of millions of dollars. And the hype has to keep stepping up. And they eventually got into the trap that a lot of companies got into, which is taking money from SoftBank. And SoftBank said, "Here's $400 million at a $3 billion valuation a few years ago." And they said, "Great, let's run at it.

Let's be a products company." And they burned through a lot of that money. And suddenly, they didn't have any products to show because deep tech is hard. It took a lot longer than anyone thought. And what will... We better try and craft a narrative and get... We better get the product public.

And so they did that. They got public. And a lot of what they had been telling people was coming, was coming, it's going to be here soon didn't really work. So they had to pivot the business. They had to become a products company. They kept telling folks they were going to be X, Y, and Z months away.

And they were going to be able to hit these targets on the product. And it turns out it was always a little bit further away, a little bit further away. And then boom, they have a big board review recently. And they look at the product pipeline and they look at where they are.

And they're like, "Oh, this really isn't going to work." And the whole thing falls apart. Because everyone was banking on this massive return. And everyone missed the story, which is that they've been doing this for many years and had to eventually abandon and pivot away from their business because no one was willing to pay them for it.

So truly, they never found product market fit in their first generation of their business. And they never found product market fit in the second generation of the business. And it's really worth taking a watchful eye based on this learning, which is just a fundamental basic premise for starting a company.

Do you have product market fit? And can you make money from your product? And if you can't answer those two things, there isn't a business. And then the third thing is how valuable is the company as a function of how much you can grow. And so they really hadn't even gotten past phase one.

And everyone kind of wanted to believe the hype. So it's a bit disappointing to see. But it's really going to impact the industry broadly. Because now people are going to say a lot of synthetic biology companies are smoke and mirrors and they're really not there yet. So a lot of folks in the industry are really concerned right now.

So to dovetail this with the previous discussion, Sachs, funding your own company over funding of companies. And I think that's a really good question. And I think that's a really good question. And I think that's a really good question. And I think that's a really good question. And I think that's a really good question.

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