Dating is inherently deceptive. You know what? If you were a total loser, and you would amount to nothing, and you would add value to no one, and no one would respect you, but I would still marry you, how would you feel? - Ooh! - Why am I the bad guy?

The world is the bad guy! Isn't this good? Isn't it good that you have a husband who wants this? Alright, welcome to the Official/Unofficial Axe2 Network podcast. We are launching lifelong Kingdom workers from every college town. My name is Steven. - I'm Isaiah. - And today we are with Joe and Irene.

- Thanks, guys. - Hello. - Thanks for coming on. - Good to see you guys. Yeah. We want to talk about probably the most interesting topic to college students today, which is AI. No, I'm just kidding. We want to talk about dating and marriage. But before we get into it, why don't you guys introduce yourselves real quick.

Just what year did you graduate? Tour some of your peers around our network and just where you're serving. Yeah. Cool. So, I'm Joe, graduated 2006 from UC Berkeley. Peers around our network, so Josh Wang in Riverside, Chris Park up in Berkeley, Matt Lee, San Diego, a couple guys in Merced, Erickson, those guys, and then Jesse Chen in DMV among some others.

Nice. Irene, and I graduated 2007, so a year younger than him. and my peers, Ariana, she's in San Diego, Sherry, Park. Oh no, she's not Park. Chung, Chung. Chung, sorry. Dora, who's now in Minnesota, Amy Leung, Sue, I forget all their last names. Katie in the East Coast. Katie in the East Coast.

Katie in the East Coast. Um, Cece, Linda. Yeah. That's good. You don't have to name all of them. Oh, sorry. It's important because they feel like we're there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'll stop you so they know it's my fault that you're not naming us. Blame Isaiah. Thanks.

Yeah. So, and then you guys are serving at our Irvine church. Irvine church. Yes, that's right. Cool. Cool. So we're going to talk about dating and marriage. Just, just for fun. Let's, let's talk about. Your guys isn't married. Your guys dating. How long have you been married now? Oh.

Oh. I'm sorry. You put him on the spot. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Oh no. Irvine doesn't know either. So it's fine. I'm going to say both daughters. It's like 12 years. 12 years. And you have three kids. Three kids. Three daughters. Beautiful daughters. He really wanted a son. I really wanted a son.

I'm very happy with my daughters. Especially twins. Yes. Jamie's nine. Super cute. And our twins are seven. They just turned seven. Wow. She's already nine. 27. Okay. Okay. So how about just tell us like. Who asked who. Yeah. How you guys first met. Who asked who. How that all went down.

So she's okay. So Irene's actually cousins with one of my peers. So Matt. That's right. Yeah. So I met her when she was a freshman. I was a sophomore at the time. And then we were not always in the same kind of. grouping. As undergrads. But. Like. Either in the next.

Home group. Or something like that. So. We kind of knew each other throughout undergrad. Served together. After. In coin. In coin. Um. We started dating maybe. Like. Two. Three years after graduating. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I was a little shocked when he called me actually. Oh. He didn't see it coming at all.

Yeah. Joe called me. And then I was like. Uh. Do you have the right person on the other. Yeah. Um. Yeah. Cause I had never even thought about him. So then. When he called me. It was a little shocking. No, no. Because I felt like. Oh. He's like. Too above my range.

Wow. What a compliment. Oh my god. I mean. That's not how I thought at all. For me. I was. Okay. Maybe this is too. Too serious. But like. Uh. I was really looking for. A wife. That I could do ministry with. Mm-hmm. That was really what I was looking for.

My. Home church pastor. Loved the. He was the first man of God. Who just. Like. I saw him sacrifice. So much. For our youth group. Um. His wife. Was not that involved. And so I saw him kind of burn out. Actually. Mm-hmm. Trying to serve the youth group. I really want to find a wife.

Who is going to be. My equal. Mm-hmm. At least. Um. Someone who's. Gonna be doing. Anyway. So when I saw Irene. I was like. Boom. There it is. How did you know? When did you know? When did you know? Okay. Was that her freshman year? No. Okay. So we went on a.

Cambodia mission trip. Okay. So I actually. Postgrad. Postgrad. Postgrad. Postgrad. Cause you were there for like. Three out of the four. Yeah. I was there for three out of four. Yeah. Yeah. So. And then I actually. I tell undergrads like. Mission trips. And things like that. Are great. It's a great context.

To kind of get to know someone. So. Look around. That's not why you should go. While you're there. Jesus. For Jesus. Yeah. So I just. I just. I guess I saw her in a different way. I knew her. Uh. You know. Throughout undergrad and stuff like that. But just.

Seeing her zeal. And like. Her. How. How hard she worked. It was very appealing to me. Um. The only thing was. Um. She was really bossy. Okay. Okay. I gotta tell this story though. Okay. What do you think now? Wait. I am still bossy. Why do you think she's bossy?

Character ratio. I'm working on it. But. But. Uh. So. We were dating for about a. Gosh. I think it was maybe. We were a month in. Maybe a month and a half. And we're having lunch. And then. Eating really yummy Korean food. He goes. Hey. So. Is there anything that you're concerned about me?

Like. About me. Like. Wow. Okay. I'm serious. So. So. I say. Well. I've heard that you're kind of mechanical. You know. Like. You're kind of mechanical. And he's like. Oh yeah. I'm working on that. Well. For you. You're um. You're pretty bossy. Like. When we were in Cambodia. I was like.

Dang. She's bossy. So. I was like. Oh. And you're like. I didn't ask. But the topic. It felt a little bit like that. So. I'm sure. That's how it felt for her emotionally. Um. But. I thought. Surely. She would have some things about me. That she would. Find concerning.

Yeah. Um. Because. Again. After that conversation. After that conversation. I had a few concerns. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now that she mentioned mine. Yeah. Wow. You know. For me. It's like. I. Yeah. I just. I. I wanted to. I'm a pretty simple person. And straightforward. Maybe too straightforward. So. Um.

Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to talk about it. Kind of getting out. Getting out in the open. Wow. He's a serious dude. Yeah. Yeah. Serious dude. Yeah. Yeah. What are some. Highlights. That you'd be willing to share. Oh. Maybe. This is your chance to set the record straight. On. Some.

Maybe some stories that have. Accumulated. Legendary. Features. Over time. I think you gotta say. Which one you're okay with. Cause there's just so much. There are a lot. There are a lot. There are a lot. Um. Is it more of the same kind of. Pattern? Yeah. I guess. I think so.

He's a serious dude. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. Um. Are you gonna make him tell it? No. No. He just needs to give me permission. To tell which one. You know. Maybe you should give him some options. I already gave him many options. Oh. We're good. Yeah. Okay. Well we got time.

We got time. Alright. Okay. You wanna tell the supermodel story? Okay. Sure. Okay. So this one's a classic. Our students get a kick out of this one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We tell this one frequently. We're on a lunch date. And then somehow the topic of. Oh. Um. What kind of girls does your brother like?

Comes up. And he goes. I have an older brother. Older brother. Um. Alpha female. Prettiest. Smartest. The one that all the guys wanna date. And he goes. But I don't care about that stuff. I'm like. I'm like. Ah. You know. And I'm like. You know. I could find that like.

Kind of offensive. And then he goes. Why? You know what? Let's not talk about this anymore. You know what? Let's not talk about this anymore. Let's move on. He goes. No. I don't understand. So then. So then. I'm like. You know what? Let's not talk about this anymore. You know what?

Let's not talk about this anymore. Um. Let's move on. He goes. No. I don't understand. So then. So then. So then. I say. Okay. So. Like. You're insinuating something about me. By saying what you just said. Um. He's like. Yeah. Okay. I don't understand. And I was like. Okay.

So. Never heard. Oh really? Yeah. Short fat bald guy. And then. And then he's like. So I would feel more comfortable. Like if you said that. You're fine with short fat bald guys. Uh huh. Anyway. So basically. Like. I keep trying to. Like. Go away from this topic. I don't want to talk about this anymore.

But he just. He starts ramping up at me. Like. He gets mad at me. Right? He's ramping up. And I'm like. I just. You know what? Can we just not talk about. I don't understand. Um. Okay. Like. I don't really want to talk about this anymore. Uh huh. And then.

He's like ramping up. And he goes. Well. It's not like you're a supermodel or something. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. Uh huh. So. What did you do? So at that point. I just. I. I didn't know what to do. You know. So I just. I said. You know what Joe.

I've never thought I was a supermodel. Like ever in my life. And I said. But I think I'm done with lunch. Okay. So then I wrap up. And then I get up. And then I. I'm walking to the car. I probably realized. Oh. I probably said something wrong. So he's.

Like scurrying after me. He's like. Okay. I'll see you later. And then I'm like. And I close the door. And I peel out. Right. About 10-15 minutes later. He calls me. And he goes. Uh. I think you're beautiful. There was definitely a question mark at the end of it.

So. That's a good move. Yeah. So when I talk to other sisters about it. They're like. You gotta take the full package. Um. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. How long into our relationship was that? I think that was maybe like. Two. Two. Three months. Something like that. Two. Three months. Yeah.

It's probably around there. But he has this whole reason and everything. Like. You have to give him the back story. Like. It's cause. Women are insecure. And you know. Men. Yeah. Well. Okay. Um. Joe does not want to talk about this. I grew up with very few female friends.

I just hung out with the bros. His dad apologized to me. Like. When he met me. Knowing that. You know. I had an older brother. probably just rough housing all the time. So. I really didn't understand. Like. The female psyche. Mm. Um. But. You know. Like I mentioned earlier.

Really what I wanted. Was. Uh. Someone who was gonna be a good wife. A good mom. And a good minister. That's really what I cared about. Someone who loved Jesus. And someone who's gonna do that. Like. With me. Mm. Till the end. Partner until we die. That's what I was looking for.

Mm. I didn't care. About. Like. The world's beauty standards. Mm. Stuff like that. Was not. Like. Something I. Like. Was not high on my list. Mm. And I thought. Surely that's a good thing. Here's the world. Amen. Take notes. Here's the world. Telling women. That. Their worth is defined by their.

By their appearance. In fact. That's. Now that I have daughters. I understand it a little bit more. Because I see it in them. And how much it affects them. Mm. But it's. It's really crazy. I actually hate that part of the world. Mm. That tells women. That their values about their appearance.

Okay. So. There's that. Now I'm like. I don't care about that stuff. I care about. Your character. I care about. Isn't that. A good thing. Isn't it a good thing. It is. That's the thing. That's what makes it so confusing. The one who wants to date you. Like your husband.

That's true. I agree. Like. Is not about that. And just. Cares about. Your soul. Like. That's what I didn't understand. Yeah. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Why am I the bad guy. The world is the bad guy. I. I. I. Isn't this good. Isn't it good that you have a husband who wants this.

That's what I. Didn't understand. I was getting ramped up. And I was just. I just. Yeah. I don't know what to say to that. Cause that's. So. So I thought about it. Yeah. So I thought about it. And I realized. I spent some time journaling about it. Cause I.

After this incident. What's going on. So. And I realized. I realized. Um. Actually when she said. You know. If you were a short fat bald guy. Like how would you feel. In other words. She flipped it on me. And actually my. Honest emotional reaction was. Oh. That would be great.

Why don't you feel that way. It's kind of how I was feeling right. But I realized. It's because. Generally speaking. The thing that women are insecure about. And men are insecure about. Are very different. Men are not insecure about their looks. Generally speaking. So they don't care. Yeah. And we're all kind of deluded.

Right. So I actually had to. Translate it. And then. I thought. I sort of ran this. Thought experiment. If she said. You know what. If you were a total loser. And you would amount to nothing. And you would add value to no one. And no one would respect you.

But I would still marry you. How would you feel. That's. That's when I was like. That hurts. Wow. And I go. That's what she was feeling. Because. Her source of insecurities. Is. Is in that. And that's what I touched. And. And if I had to translate it. To this.

To the male thing. I was like. Oh. That would have hurt actually. A lot. And that's when I realized. I did a bad thing. Yeah. Yeah. So that's when. I kind of. Yeah. We talked about it. I apologize. Is that when you called and said. No, no, no. That was.

That was just. I didn't know what to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was. I kind of thought about it later that night. And sort of. Yeah. Wow. Did you share all those insights with her? Like. I did. Afterwards. Oh. I think you only shared it after we were married.

Oh really? Yeah. I was grateful for a thoughtful husband. Wow. Yeah. Someone who would journal about that. Yeah. After it happening. Yeah. It was very thoughtful. Yeah. I don't know how many guys would do that. Yeah. That's amazing. Marriage has caused me to journal more than anything. It's been good.

Praise the Lord. Wow. Wow. Okay. I don't know if we're going to top that one. But. Yeah. Should we. Should we. I forgot what we were talking about. Yeah. So tell us more about marriage. Oh. Yeah. I'm just. I'm like so. I'm just trying to process. It's like I'm learning things.

This is like. This is a little much right now. Okay. So okay. Well okay. Let's move on. So on that note. I feel like. Yeah. We'll have a bonus episode with them later. Where we'll have more of these stories. And just get some wisdom I think. But. Okay. So on that note.

We do want to talk about dating. And. I feel like dating is one of these things where. It's sort of. It's in the air. At our church. I mean it's in the air. In college of course. Everyone's thinking about dating. The reality is there's some sort of stigma attached to it.

And at least like. I don't know. I'm just going to share my experience. At Rutgers. I mean it's like we never talk about dating. Actually. I don't think I've. I preach every Sunday. I don't think I've ever preached about it. Or. Hasn't really come up in discipleship or anything.

Um. But. Even despite that. Like I think. There is this sort of sense that like. Oh. Acts 2 network. Anti dating. I think if I had to sum it up. That's an oversimplification. But that is sort of the sense. Puritanical. Yeah. So. I. We did hear that you guys.

About once a year. You do have like a little seminar. On the. On the dating topic. So we just want to hear like. How. Yeah. What are your thoughts about. Specifically. Undergrads. Dating. Like. For it. Against it. What do you think about it. And what's some wisdom that you shared.

Maybe just. Break it down for us a little. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. So we ended up doing that. Because. That's one of the most popular topics. For office hours. Yeah. And I just kept talking about it. Every week. Different people. I thought. Hey. Might as well just kind of. Put it all together.

Yeah. So everyone here at the same time. Because I think it's a hugely important topic. Yeah. Kind of how you started. Because a lot of people. Kind of think that we have a stance on it. And. I have to keep telling people. We don't. Like. As far as I know.

At least. Yeah. I think we. I think it's fair to say. We used to. Like. Back in the day. Like. I don't know how far back. But. It has changed. It's changed. Yeah. The reality is. I don't think we do anymore. Yeah. Yeah. So. A lot of. principles. Principles.

And how that works out. In your life. So. Um. Yeah. So. I guess. I don't know. There's a lot that goes into that. Like. Dating. Again. Because it's a huge topic. There's a lot of wisdom around it. There's a lot of ways to think about it. But I guess if I had to like.

Boil it down. Um. I guess it would be. Like. Let's look at the bible. For what it says about dating. Okay. It doesn't say anything. There's nothing. There's nothing. There's nothing. There's nothing in there. End of discussion. Right. See you later. It's. It. Dating didn't exist back then. Right.

So. So how do you think biblically about dating. Yeah. Well you gotta start with what you know. Right. Start with what you know. And then extrapolate that to. To how it can plan out. So. So then. Like. The bible says a lot about marriage though. And it says. That marriage is like.

Incredibly important. Like. The kind of relationship between a. Husband and wife. Is that you become one flesh. That. Should never separate. Except for like. Really extreme situations. So. It's like. Incredibly important. Such a powerful. Relationship. If that's the case. It should be treated as such. A lot of people told me.

Marriage is like the second. Most important decision. You'll ever make in your life. After your decision to become Christian. Right. I can see that. So. Then we gotta treat that with a lot of care. Cause you don't wanna mess that up. It's a beautiful gift that God has given us.

But. The. The more beautiful something is. The more ugly it can become. If it isn't treated properly. So. So then what is dating. It's kinda getting ready for marriage. So you wanna do that. Really really well. So then in terms of like. How to. How to date and all that.

There's a lot of wisdom there. But I think what most undergrads. Wanna know is. When can I start dating. Yeah. Am I ready. When can I start dating. And for that. Usually what I tell them. Is something along the lines of. When you're ready to be married in a few years.

If you're ready to be married in a few years. Mm. If you're ready to be married in a few years. That's a good time to start dating. Mm. Um. Yeah. And I guess like. Really it comes down to. Practically. Um. I just think it's really hard to date someone for like five, six years and not be married.

Mm. God wants. The boundary of sex to be within a marriage. To enhance that marriage. To seal that marriage. Consummate that marriage. And to date someone that you're very attracted to. For five years. And not consummate that relationship. Is actually really, really hard. Mm. I think the world solution of just.

You know, premarital sex is not what. It's not God honoring. That's not what God would want. So. Mm. Just practically speaking. To start dating. Mm. Uh. Looking towards marriage. But doing it. When you're practically ready to be married in a few years. Mm. Yeah. So do you guys have like at Irvine.

Um. You guys have couples who are dating. And how do you go about like ministering to them. And like yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. So. We do have a couple undergrads who are dating. And it really is case by case. It just kind of depends on the person.

And um. How well we know them. Yeah. And then um. How much they want to talk about it. You know. It's always permission based. So. Hey. If this is something you guys want to talk about. Receive wisdom about. We are available to you. Uh. And some people take us up on that.

And some people don't. Give up to them. Yeah. So there's no like. I don't know. Does that. Does that cause like. I don't know. Drama. Or like. Do people break up. Like. You know. Again. Depends on the couple. Yeah. And then some. Some like. Are not. But doesn't cause drama.

Some. Some are. And does. Inevitably cause drama. Right. So yeah. It just kind of depends. Like a college pastor. Is. Like. Okay. So traditionally. One thing that. I've always thought is. And that. I think our church has practices. Hey. We don't want to. Like a flirtatious environment. So for me.

It's like. That's fine. Like. It's. I mean. It's your life. I'm not. You're an adult. I'm not going to control you. But. If you come in. You start to like. Shift the atmosphere. And the culture of my. Of our group. Then it does sort of. Veer into the territory.

Of like. Okay. Do I need to do something. About that. So. I'm just wondering. How have you guys. Thought about that. And like. What are some conclusions. Or. Kind of practices. That you've drawn. Hmm. Yeah. In our hearts. Yeah. As like. A ministering couple. Trying to. Help non-Christians. Come into an environment.

Where they're not being distracted. By a lot of the. Kind of meat market. Kind of mentality. Where everybody's scoping. Everybody else out. Yeah. So. I mean. When we talk about. I guess. One of the reasons. Why we talk about it. On like. An annual basis. I guess. Is because.

We want to talk about. How it affects. The culture. How it affects. The overall atmosphere. The reality that. We're interested in. Allowing anybody to hear. About the gospel. Yeah. Anybody and everybody. Who's. Who's desiring to. And. If you have. This atmosphere. Where people are like. Scoping each other out.

Or there's lots of PDA. And then everybody's kind of yearning. And then everybody's kind of yearning. For that. How much of a distraction. That can become. From them being able to hear. From the word of God. Or from them. Even investigating. Because they feel like. They don't belong in.

There's a. There's a testimonial. That we actually share. During the. I guess. The dating courtship talk. That we have. Where. There was a non-Christian guy. He wanted to check out church. He goes to his friends church. And then like. You know. His friends with him. But as soon as the girls arrive.

He dips. Like. He's like. Standing there. By himself at church. He doesn't even know. What to do. Because it's church. You know. But basically. All the guys. Are like. Trying to get the attention. Of the girls. And the girls are interested. In getting attention. Of the guys. And then.

So this new guys. Non-Christian. Wants to hear about the gospel. But he's like. This is not the place for me. Um. And so. As we kind of share. About testimonies like that. Or. Um. I think personally. We'll have conversations. With people. If we have enough relationship. With them. Like.

Hey. Like. If you could cool it. A little bit. Because. Like. This is an area. That people are struggling with. And if they don't have that relationship. It can be distraction. For them. So we do actually. Have pretty straight up conversations. With people. But you know. In the end.

Like. Like. People take it well. Yeah. On the whole. I think. Well. I don't know. I just. I feel like. Actually. Most people don't. Haven't thought about that. Yeah. We could see that. Yeah. Or atmosphere. Or those types of things. Yeah. Yeah. So like. As far as it goes.

I don't. I don't ever remember that. Conversation. Not going well. I mean. It's pretty. Yeah. I don't know. Dating. You got to think about it. Be thoughtful about it. Be careful about it. If you're going to do it. You know. That's okay. But hey. Let's just do it like.

In a classy way. Where it's not going to be distracting to the rest of the group. Yeah. And then I guess the other thing is like. I. You know. One thing I'm always. Trying to inspire college students to do. Is to see their campus. Christian college students. Yeah. See their campus as a harvest field.

Mm-hmm. Um. There are so many people who. Just need love. Yeah. Lonely. You know. Just. Full of. Uh. Stuff that they don't even like or want. And just. They just need people to love them. And so. Um. Once. You know. Once people kind of really catch that vision. Like.

Oh. Yeah. Man. My campus is a harvest field. Um. It actually just kind of naturally tends to. Like. They're interested in meeting people. Uh. Even during our Bible studies. Oh. Let me. Let me. Let me. Let me meet that person. Like. Maybe that's someone I can. Kind of love and minister.

You know. To. Or something like that. So. I actually find that that kind of. Really. Like. Not. Not. In order to. Interaction. In this space. Just with. My girlfriend. Because here's a space where I can actually. Like. Be an older brother to someone. And. Get to know someone. And love someone.

You know. So. So. Like. Help with the atmosphere. Yeah. Of people caring about each other. In that space. I like that. Going back to what you were saying earlier about. See. You kind of. You leave it the ball in their court. Whether they want. I guess. Kind of mentorship.

In this area. If they are dating. Some guidance. And some mentorship. What are some tips. That you've given them. Or some tools. What do you guys do with that. Yeah. Okay. Huh. Um. Dude. There are a couple books that I always recommend. I think. Outdated by. Jonathan Pucuta is good.

It's a good one. Um. I really like the meaning of marriage. By Tim Keller. Uh. Cause I think it kind of. Brings out the goal. Like the goal is marriage. And here's the kind of marriage you want to. Have. And if that's the kind of marriage you want to have.

Then that sort of. Helps you. Determine. The kind of dating. You want to do. Yeah. And then the kind of people you want to date. Um. And then like. One. I guess one just very practical thing. That I. I tell a lot of people is. One of the best ways to.

Know someone. Is. To. Observe their relationships. Um. This is too strongly stated. And I say it this way sometimes. Cause it's slightly controversial. But. Dating is inherently deceptive. Um. So that's sort of a negative way of putting it. But the positive way of putting it. Is you're always going to put your best foot forward.

Yeah. Which is good. You want to do that right. You're going to dress the best. Which you should. Yeah. If you don't normally shower. You're going to shower. You know. Like. You're going to be on your best behavior. And you should. But if that's the only thing that you see.

You're only going to see that other person's sort of. Yeah. Best face. If you want to really understand who that person is. It's best to see them in context of other relationships. How. How are they with their friends. How are they with people older than them. How are they with people younger than them.

Seeing all of those things. Actually gets you. A really good picture of what someone's going to be like. When you marry them. Um. And so. That's like one practical thing. I tell people. Look out for that. Yeah. That's really interesting because. You know. Dating today is. Seen so often as like a.

Just one on one kind of thing. Or just like. That's just a couple. Kind of thing. And you're kind of expanding that. And. I find that kind of counter cultural too. So. Yeah. It talks about community so much. And I think it's so. It's so. Practical. Like. You need a village to raise a child.

You know. Like. You need. Like. I don't know how we could have done. Marriage. Honestly. Without all of the relationships that kind of supported us. Oh yeah. If I. If. If. If. Like. I was the only source of. Like. Emotional support for her. Or vice versa. That's tough. Like.

Who can shoulder that. Right. And so. You kind of need all of those relationships all together. Yeah. That's good. Are there any other. I don't know. Ways in which this issue has come out in your ministry. Just other things you try to do. Other than like your yearly presentation.

Or whatever. That where you're trying to guard the culture. Or. Or teach. Right. Biblical values around this. Like. Is there anything else that. Either tell your staff. Or. Just anything. Anything where it kind of comes in. Well. One other. I guess. Piece of advice. That we generally advise. If they're asking for it.

Is to. Um. We encourage them. To come up with guardrails. Around like. How late at night. Are you going to hang out. Um. Like. How private is the space. That you're going to be in together. And again. This is all with regards to. Kind of crossing the. The. The barrier of like.

Um. Having sex before marriage. And that's what we're really concerned about. More than anything else. Really. Is purity. And so. Um. We will often advise them. To. Just come up with. What those guardrails are. And. So you set a guardrail. Let's say you go past that. That's not sin.

That's your guardrail. What it's supposed to do. Is to prick your conscience. And cause you. To be like. Oh. Remember we agreed on something. Let's not let that slip. Yeah. So that it doesn't. It's not that slippery slope. That we're going to be sliding down. Mm-hmm. And. I think that's something that.

Um. When couples have asked for. Mentorship. Through their. Uh. Courting relationship. Um. We will highly encourage. Having those types of things in place. Yeah. Yeah. Like. I. So. A lot of times I tell people like. I'm not against your dating. I think dating is great. How are you going to get married.

Unless you date. Um. What I am for. Most of all though. Is your future marriage. Mm-hmm. Like. I want your future marriage to be awesome. Mm-hmm. You so much through that. Yeah. And so let's protect that as best we can. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And one of the most practical ways to do that.

Is. To avoid sexual sin before you get married. Yeah. Um. So that's. That's sort of the principle there. Yeah. Man. I always. There's this quote. I think it's C.S. Lewis. But I haven't been able to track it down recently. But I remember one thing that he says. Is. Like people always talking about like missing out.

Like I don't want to miss out. Right. Um. And so. Like that's a justification for like. Yeah. Dating around. Or kind of doing a lot of things. Mm-hmm. That you know. I don't want to miss out on that. And he says. Well you have to understand that you're making a choice.

You're either going to miss out on one type of thing or another. Mm-hmm. Right. So yeah. If you. If you have premarital sex. And you. You're not going to miss out on that. But what you will miss out on. Is the experience of what it's like. To be faithful to just one person.

Yeah. And you will never know what that's like. And you're giving that up. So I remember that being very powerful for me. Yeah. Like that really helped me as a young man. To kind of think to like. Okay. God knows best. And I don't want to miss out on his best.

But I'll have to sacrifice that. If I. You know. Take these other things. I don't know. I just found that helpful. If you think it's C.S. Lewis. Sounds like the kind of thing he would say. But. I don't remember the source. Yeah. Yeah. Um. One question I have is like.

What's. What's. Do you ever get pushback? Do you ever. Like what are some questions people ask. You know. Or like. You know. Yeah. Just ways people responded. Yeah. Just. On that. Cause it just sounds so reasonable. You know. Stuff like that. And I. I mean. I agree with everything you say.

But. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well. Um. I think. Well. This is actually something that's happening more and more. Regularly. More than it used to. But. A lot of people don't even. Necessarily agree that. A Christian shouldn't date. A non-Christian. Which I think is. I don't know. Fairly clear.

From scripture. Yeah. So. Cause you know. Again. The goal is to get married. Right. So you don't want to get. Um. So. So. So. Um. Who are you to. Say anything about my life. Mm-hmm. And. And I. And I get that. I. It's. It's not. It's never easy to invite.

Someone into your life. Especially if there's. I mean. What. What is a more powerful force than attraction? Mm-hmm. That is so powerful. So. You know. What like. The number one. Biggest. Like. Concern for college students. Is. Probably dating. What's number two? It's probably dating. And then it's like maybe your GPA.

Right. So. So. I get that too. So. You know. Again. Um. You know. For. For me. It's always permission based. Mm-hmm. Um. Yeah. Yeah. More often than not. I don't know that I've ever like. Been. Like. Oh. You're wrong. Like. I don't know that I've ever gotten that kind of response.

It's more like. You know what. What you're saying is totally true. But we're different. That's actually generally. Yeah. Like. We're different. And so then like. At that point. Like. I have to say. You know. I've been doing this a long time. And. It's possible. It's possible. That you're different.

You know. That I've been doing this a long time. And. It's been a rare. If. I don't know if I've ever known a situation. Where. People have not crossed those boundaries. And regretted it. Um. But. But. Yeah. Like. It's more along those lines. They fully agree with our logic.

But then it's more like. Oh. But I'm the exception. Is often the. I see. That's interesting. Um. I imagine that. With today. You know. Like. Broken families. And stuff. I feel like. Uh. Like. Vision of marriage. So you talked about like. Uh. Meaning of marriage. Timothy. Talking about the goal.

And trying to lift up that biblical vision. Of what marriage can be. Do you find yourself like. Doing that. Or having to do that. Just. Just cause I feel like. I mean a lot of college students. Who just. They don't have a good vision of marriage. Estrange from their.

Whatever. And it's just like. My. My marriage might be the first one they ever seen. That's actually intact. I mean actually. Like. When they come to my house for dinner. That might be the first family dinner they ever had. You know. So like. What. What. You know. Do you guys experience the same thing.

And what do you do with that. Like. Are. Are. Pictures of what a. Dating relationship should look like. It's like 90% from the media. Right. So. And. Yeah. And like. How many. How many movies. Or. TV shows. Do you know of. That. Portrays. A. Long-term. Loving. Marriage. It's actually pretty rare.

Most of the romances are like. They're not married yet. And it's. Very. Physically based. And that's the only. Vision that the world has. And so. Again. It totally makes sense that. Like. That's sort of the cash. That's. That's what people have in their. In their minds. So. Yeah. I do think that.

Like. Yeah. God's ways are better. He's not trying to say no. He's trying to say there is something better. So. Kind of. Building that out. And showing that. You know. It's hard though. It's hard. Because. You know. And again. Yeah. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. Forgo some of this stuff.

So that I can have that. Like. That's a difficult. Decision. Yeah. All the more. Than. You know. For those who want to be a faithful. Christian witness. You know. Another reason. To try to pursue it the right way. Yeah. It's knowing that. Generational. It's been. Really cool to hear from you guys.

I feel like. I learned a lot. Yeah. I learned some good stuff. From you guys. So. Thank you guys so much. For stopping by. And. Sharing with us. Your experience. And your wisdom. Yeah. So if you want more of this stuff. And you want to see. Yeah. Like. Subscribe.

And see you next episode. Yeah. Thanks for joining us. Thank you guys.