Our next guest needs no introduction. She has an incredible career in film. She's an entrepreneur, she's a podcaster. But interestingly learned about a year and a half ago that our friend Gwyneth Paltrow is also a fan of the All In podcast. (laughing) So welcome Gwyneth Paltrow. (upbeat music) ♪ All in ♪ ♪ Let your winners ride ♪ ♪ Rain Man David Sackman ♪ ♪ I'm going all in ♪ ♪ And it said ♪ ♪ We open sourced it to the fans ♪ ♪ And they've just gone crazy with it ♪ ♪ Love you guys ♪ ♪ I'm queen of Kinwans ♪ ♪ I'm going all in ♪ - Are you trolling me with my glasses?

Do you have your blue lights on? - I can't, I honestly can't see without these things at this point, so forgive me. - I'm just curious, thanks for zooming in here. When did you become aware of the podcast? 'Cause you said you listen to two podcasts, you have your own amazing podcast.

How did you discover the All In podcast? 'Cause you wrote about us so graciously in the Goop newsletter and said it's your latest obsession. Then you shouted us out on another podcast. So I get like a hundred, we all get like a hundred inbounds when you do that. But how did you find out about our podcast?

- We just recommended it to a nearby friend. And I just, you know, there's so many people who's really proud of it, but I thought, okay, this is interesting. And I put it on and honestly, you guys are the only thing I listen to religiously every single week. I love all of you.

You open my mind, you challenge my thinking, and I learn so much from all of you. So I just, I appreciate what you guys do and I really feel very honored that you have me on. You know, my husband, the little bonus contention is he thinks I'm in love with David Satch.

But people don't even do it, so it's okay. - But you're breaking up a little bit, but I think I heard in there that-- - She hates David Satch. - She hates David Satch, is that correct? That you just-- - I heard that I was the favorite bestie, but-- - So you're traveling right now.

You don't have Starlink on your plane? - I'm flying on American. Shamoff did not lend me his plane for this. I can't regret it. (laughing) - We'll make sure we're correct. We brought the summit to you this year, but you couldn't make it in person. I wanted to ask you, of all the things you've done, you had this incredible career in Hollywood, which really spanned from the independent film era all the way to the blockbuster superhero era.

Obviously, Goop and the tremendous success there and podcasting. What have you enjoyed most? And then, I'm wondering, I know you get harangued by all the Marvel fans to play Pepper Potts again, but it's not exactly your decision. What have you enjoyed most in your career? - I have to say, I genuinely have enjoyed all of the chapters.

I've been incredibly fortunate in that I've had this amazingly diverse life. I've been an expat in London for a decade. And it's been really, it's been just thrilling to be able to do that and then kind of segue into a life of entrepreneurship. And I would be hard-pressed to pick a favorite.

- Yeah. - How did you make that decision, Gwyneth? We talked with Alexandra Botez before this. She's gotten a lot of notoriety and built an audience streaming chess, chess matches. And now she's building her own business, and we're gonna talk to Jimmy Donaldson, Mr. Beast, here in a minute.

And he's similarly building his own business with his audience. How did you make the decision to build Goop, to build a business with your audience instead of endorse other businesses and get paid to put your stamp on other products that were already in market and help us think about the intention on being an entrepreneur and an owner instead of being an endorser and a service provider?

- I mean, I think that in my position, we're expected to kind of be an endorser and put our name on something more white label. In my case, maybe it was naivete. Like I just really wanted to try to build something brick by brick and have that incredible hockey stick education.

And the business happened very iteratively. It really just started with me kind of writing content in my kitchen in London almost 15 years ago, which is kind of hard to believe. And the business models, there've been a few of them. They've slowly evolved over time. You know, we started monetizing content and then moved into product and then making our own product.

And I think it's sort of what I didn't like so much about acting was the part where you're kind of waiting around, waiting for permission to engage, to create something, to put something out in the world. And this is far more immediate. And I love my acting career, but I find this like incredibly fulfilling in a much different way.

- Yeah, maybe you could talk a little bit. I know I listened to your pod and I've been watching your intellectual curiosity. It seems like aging and kind of living our best lives in our fifties and Gen X is kind of moving into this new era. I'm curious what you think about this having multiple careers and moving into this new era of life and living your best life in your fifties and your sixties.

People are staying healthier longer skiing into their sixties and seventies. I don't want to bring up too much skiing. I know that was a bit of a distraction this year for you. Congratulations on the case. I mean, the best part of it was when you walked out of the case and you put your head on his shoulder, you said, I just wish you well or something.

You were very kind and magnanimous, but maybe talk about just how great it is to be able to just keep having this healthy lifestyle and what you're doing on the pod, because I'm watching you intellectually go from shorter to longer to longer and more in depth conversations. - Thanks, J.

Cal. You know, I... - That's her way of saying you're full of shit. - You know, I think what I've watched over the span of this kind of 15, kind of general curiosity in wellness and this idea that we can impact the way that we feel. I think, you know, we were a little bit early on the early side in the trends and I really am so happy to see people understanding that how they think and how they breathe and what they eat really impacts how they feel, the quality of their relationships and everything.

And I think it's, it only intensifies in your fifties, I think, when you start to understand that life really is finite and in a way that you don't, you can't conceptualize that when you're 26 years old. And so I'm glad that I feel bullish about aging, you know, I definitely want to do whatever interventions I can to feel good and happy and live a long life.

I love my kids so much. I wanna live a long time and meet their kids. And I think the pod, the Goop pod is just a way for me to learn more about kind of what's out there. And we talked to amazing doctors and experts and scientists and thinkers.

And so for me, it's just a wonderful opportunity to learn. And that's why I said in the beginning, I don't know if it cut out, but that's why I listened to your pod religiously every week. It's the only one that I listen to every week because of the depth of knowledge.

And you guys, I think, are bringing this amazing kind of open-minded perspective. And that's why I think you're so resonant with your listeners. - You probably read then, you heard us talk a lot about Brian Armstrong's memo. You probably heard us mention Toby Lutke, the CEO of Shopify, his memo.

Now both are sort of in one end of the spectrum, which is we're a team, we're not a family, keep your views to yourself, essentially. And we're coming here to work, but there's a spectrum of different ways. Can you just describe where you are on that spectrum and some challenges or things that you've had to go through in building this business, relative to how those guys would have run their companies?

- Yeah, I mean, I think that's been kind of the most unexpected challenge is the people piece, the team building piece, knowing how once you're at a certain scale, and you're not a CEO interacting with every single member of the team every day, how difficult it is to define a culture, be agile about the changes in the culture.

And I think for us, I think it's hard, right? Like I'm a woman founder, our team is probably 70% women. Women, archetypally, we're collaborative, we are creative. And I think that it's very hard to, for us anyway, at Groupton, it would be impossible for there to be this kind of strict team mentality only.

I think we do bring our hearts to what we do. There's meaning at what we're trying to create. But then again, there are boundaries that need to be created. And honestly, I think when I look back at all the mistakes that I've made in growing this company, all of them stem from my wanting to be a family, set a different way, my inability to sometimes say what needed to be said in order to spare somebody's feelings.

And so there's a lot of personal work for me in that spectrum. And I think that I'm sort of starting to really get the hang of how to do that and do it in my own way. But I kind of had to give myself permission to navigate through it and sort of define how I want to operate like that as a leader.

- And I suppose being a celebrity is an adjustment for people working for you. I'm curious how that transition was. And can people be normal around you at work? And how do you navigate that? - Yeah, do they tell you the truth? - Yeah. - I mean, it just must be hard at first, no?

- I think it is hard. I think people come in and I've been in the culture for better or worse for a really long time now. So I think everybody kind of has something they're coming in with, a prejudice or a projection. And I also just am famous. So sometimes that's kind of, it feels like a filter that lives between me and other people.

I think the best people at Goop, you can feel like they drop that really quickly. And we work best and make the best stuff and grow in the best way when people say no and people challenge me. - Is Hollywood challenged in being able to speak its mind? Hollywood from the outside seems to have a very kind of monocultural point of view and you're very quickly canceled if you say the wrong thing or you say something that's on your mind that doesn't fit with the standard.

And is that something that you view to be kind of an inherent challenge in Hollywood today? - You know, it's interesting. Like I think that, I think cancel culture is really toxic and really stems from, you know, I mean, I have a whole long theory about this, but I do feel like in our culture, there's a very binary way we look at good and bad.

And I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves and we are not good at understanding that we are human, we are all light and dark. And at various times we have great qualities, we have qualities we're working on. And I think what happens is because we don't live in a culture where we're allowed to sort of show our shadow sides, when somebody else does something that, you know, we can quickly have Schadenfreude over, we sort of jump on it because it feels like a release.

You know, it feels like a relief, like, oh, well, at least I didn't do X. Like this guy. And I don't think it gets us very far as a culture. I think it's actually really reductive. And I'm hoping that we're gonna kind of mature out of this binary cancel culture way of looking at things.

You know, I personally don't think about it because I would never open my mouth. Like I have to be myself. And of course you wanna be measured and you don't wanna unnecessarily, you know, get yourself in trouble or say something stupid. But at the same time, I think it's important to be true to who you are, be in integrity, say what you mean.

And sometimes, you know, you see that that creates controversy, but I don't think that that's always a bad thing. - What is the future of Hollywood? I feel like I was thinking about your career 'cause I was reviewing all the amazing films you were in in the '90s. And then obviously I mentioned, you know, the last run of the superhero films.

It feels like you're a part of the last generation of movie stars and Freeberg and Sax and I are huge cinema buffs and fans of what you do. Maybe you could talk about-- - I've watched your movies. - Chemop, he like popped, Chemop texted me like, "Hey, what should I watch tonight?" And I give him-- - Wrong.

- Well, no, I tell you to watch something really great and you're like, "That was terrible." And I'm like, "Well, okay, "it's got seven Oscar nominations, I'm sorry." - Let's not say the name. - I'm not gonna say it. - It's hard. - We bleeped it. - Yeah. - Anyway.

- Terrible movie. - Yes. - She wasn't in it. If she was in it, it'd be better. (audience laughing) - There I said it. - Tar was a great film. - Speaking of great film. - It was incredible. Did you see Tar, Gwyneth? Did you see Tar? - No, I have not.

I have not, I've only heard Chemop's review. - Thank you. (audience laughing) - Oh, so you decided not to see it. But to the point, it seems like-- - You are setting the agenda for Hollywood now, Chemop. - So what have we lost now with this, kind of the end of cinema?

It's kind of heartbreaking for me and I wonder if it's heartbreaking for you too. And maybe then you could speak on the strike and maybe how that might get resolved. I know you're out of it pretty much, but maybe you could talk a little bit about the end of-- - Yeah, what should the unions be fighting for?

I mean, you're on the other side in a sense. You're running a tech company. You're probably figuring out how to use AI and all of these disruptive tools. Your old compatriots must need a lot of help and guidance to not fight for the wrong things. So yeah, how do you think about the future of Hollywood?

Like how would you direct them like, "Hey guys, this matters "and this other stuff just doesn't matter." - Yeah, I mean, I think we're at an incredible inflection point and to start with your question, J. Cal, the inherent models of the business have changed so much as we know with streaming.

I do think that it brings up really interesting questions around like, what does this mean for artists going forward? The business isn't monetized the way that it used to be. Residuals used to be a huge part of how artists made their living. And I do think that this is an area where the studios kind of need to readdress how they have been paying in the backend, especially on TV.

But we are living in a time where there are these emerging technologies that just are going to change the way that things are made. And so I think, look, as you said, I'm kind of out of it. I don't act very much anymore. I am married to a television writer who knows far more about the ins and outs of this.

But I do think there are, I think artists do need to understand that, it's like with anything, when an industry led by, first these technology, streaming, and now AI and these things that are coming around the corner, I think we all need to be open-minded and understand that the train has left the station.

These technologies exist. So we're gonna have to find the best way forward through them. - What is your point of view? What is the conversation behind closed doors on generative art, generative film, where we're headed? Not the public conversation, but the behind doors dinner conversation with your colleagues and friends.

- I think people that are really concerned, my actor friends are very concerned about the idea that, for example, I'll just use myself, that they could decide to make "The Royal Tenenbaums 2." And because I don't own my IP, Disney owns that IP and my name and likeness for that film, that they could just theoretically create a sequel and not ask my permission and that I wouldn't have to be paid for it.

So that's kind of what the actors, where they go. For example, I invested in a company called Speechify where they use AI. You can, I don't know if you guys know the company. - I use it and you can read "The New York Times." You're one of the official voices on Speechify.

- So, I read a bunch of stuff into a microphone and then AI took my voice. And now if you wanna read Walter Isaacson's new book on Elon, which I know David Sacks is gonna be the first person in line to buy that book. You can listen to it with my voice.

So in that case, I said, I'm licensing it to you and here are the parameters. But I think the idea is going forward, if that wasn't the case, it could be a free for all. That's kind of what, that's what the actors are worried about. I think the writers that I speak to, they seem to be less worried about the AI piece right now because it's so nascent and obviously it's mining things that have already been written.

And I think art that resonates with people comes from new ideas and new ways of creating resonant intersections for people. And I think we're always gonna need people for that. I mean, maybe I'm naive, but that's, so I don't think, I don't find writers behind closed doors as concerned about the AI piece as I do the actors right now.

- That makes sense. We have a friend here who's a showrunner, is a television writer. He may be in the audience here somewhere. I think that's his attitude as well, which is like, I don't really wanna be on strike and I don't need to be protected from AI that's kind of like protecting me from a word processor or something like that.

I mean, I think these AI tools are gonna be really useful to writers. It's gonna be kind of crazy to say that writers can't use generative AI tools in their research or writing or whatever. I agree with you about the actors. That's different. I think actors should be able to control their name and likeness and make licensing deals for that, that kind of stuff.

But I think, but I do think there's like a little bit of paranoia going on with the Writers Guild. I think they're way too concerned that writers rooms are gonna get replaced with AI software. And I just think, this is a debate we have in other occupations as well, where people are really afraid that AI's just gonna replace all the jobs.

And I think our view is, at least for the foreseeable future is gonna be more like co-pilots, where it's a human working with the software, not a total replacement of the human. - Yeah. I think that's right. - Can I ask you about unions for a second? So part of revitalizing maybe the movie industry, but a lot of these industries is just that sometimes the costs of making these things just get really outrageously high, right?

And you've probably lived on sets of movies where it's just like these cost overruns and then you get into this tricky accounting and then all of a sudden one producer is suing the other. All of this stuff, at some level just boils down to there's just massive cost inflation that exists that probably shouldn't exist.

Nine people doing a job that one person, et cetera. Just talk to us about what is the future of that kind of stuff? Like how do you provide opportunity? How do you protect folks? But then how do you make sure that the costs don't become so exorbitant that it just kills the industry without you noticing?

- I think it's a really good question. I think you have to look at who profits from all of the inefficiencies. And it's one of the reasons that I feel so frustrated when I'm on set is because it is inefficient and it does feel like there's a lot of padding.

But again, the systems that exist have been in place for a really long time. I don't really wanna opine on the state of unions per se. I think I would focus more on, like if I was running a store with efficiencies and I would rather create profit for shareholders from creating efficiencies and like dealing with all of the essentially off backs that it takes to make something like that.

And less about not wanting to share profits with the artists. - As somebody who did movies in this incredible golden era, Sundance era, independent film, all these incredible new directors who you got to work with. And then this golden era of television arrived over the last four or five years, which is I'm sure you've enjoyed.

And I know your husband's participated in that meaningfully. You must have gotten tons and tons of offers 'cause they keep trying to get movie stars to do TV shows. Did you ever consider any of them? Are there any you passed on that we could hear about? What would it take to get you to do one of those TV shows?

Like what have you passed on? I'm always interested in that. - My mother says, who's also a great actress, she says, "I'm never allowed to say anything "about what I passed on." She says, "It's not ladylike and I can't do it in public." So I have to defer to Blair and Danner.

- Not even one, okay. (audience applauding) What would it take to, and have you considered it? Like it does seem like-- - How about moderating? Have you ever moderated? (audience laughing) - We could use a new moderator here. - Just gonna throw it out there. - We'll be a panel of new moderators soon.

- Yeah. - Can I ask you-- - I assume meeting like in the next two hours when this thing is done. - Can I ask you your point of view on the rules that the Academy passed for qualifying for Best Picture? Obviously they added all these diversity rules this past year.

I think they were formalized this past year. And we heard from Larry Summers earlier today. I know it's a pity you weren't here 'cause there was a lot of great conversations. But Larry said something along the lines of self-esteem should come from achievement, not achievement coming, or I don't wanna butcher it.

But basically we have a challenge right now that we aren't really earning the credit we get. And we risk seeing the best things not always win. Does the best film not win? If there's a lot of new qualifying criteria that might keep the best film out of the Best Picture nomination because it doesn't fit these new diversity rules, how do you view that?

How does Hollywood behind closed doors talk about this? And is this the right way to kind of give the awards for the Best Pictures every year? - You know, Kratenberg, I honestly don't even know. Like I feel so out of this business. I don't even know about these new diversity rules.

- Well to get nominated you have to be-- - Let me come back to you. Can I educate myself and come back to you? - Yeah, that's the whole point of the podcast. - All good. - Well when you moderate these next episodes you'll be a better-- - So I'm looking forward to it.

I need a break. - I have a question which is, back to Goop for a second. So you're building distribution. This is like this theme this afternoon a little bit. With Alex, with you, with Jimmy who we're gonna talk about which is these new content creators emerge. You guys create formats that engage an audience.

What they really give you is their trust. You build these new distribution rails. And then you decide, Gwyneth, where do you wanna point those distribution? Is it chocolate bars in Jimmy's case? Is it merch and chess related things for Alex? I'm sure that you and your team are looking at what are these areas that are just so brittle that can just be totally ripped apart?

Where new brand consideration can happen. You can establish the trust. Can you just give us some insight into that? What are the old laggard businesses that are just ready to get dismantled? - That's a really good question. You know, I honestly don't think about going into new products in that way.

Like I kind of do it more from the inside out. Like where is the (audio cuts out) - Uh-oh. - Uh-oh. - Uh-oh. - Zoom. I mean, it's held up pretty well so far. All right, with that, we'll thank. (audience laughs) - Gwyneth Paltrow. Amazing, well done. I mean, it's kind of great that she is so engaged with the pod.

- Well, I'll tell you, her comment about waiting around on a film set really resonated with me. I've produced a couple of movies. I've been to movie sets. - Dolly and Thank You for Smoking, congratulations. - And if you talk to anybody who's ever visited a movie set, the first thing they will say every time is, there's so much waiting around.

It's like, it's boring. It's a lot more boring than they thought it was gonna be. And there's a huge amount of time waiting around on sets for the next setup. They have to move the lights around or whatever. So I'll tell you, with Dolly, the Dolly movie we did, they would do like an eight to 10 hour shooting day.

I would get the dailies, which is all the material they shot in a link. It's basically like a Dropbox folder. Everything they shot was two hours. So you take a 10 hour shooting day, you're only shooting for two hours of that. And then that two hours is maybe two or three pages of material.

- So two or three minutes. - You're watching five takes of every angle or whatever. So there is a huge amount of just sort of boredom on a set. So I think it's really cool that she, while thinking about this, is like, hey, I could start a company. And I think you're going through one of the first to do this, like 15 years ago.

- Yeah, I mean, she came before anybody and I think she had a lot of iteration along the way. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) (upbeat music) I'm doing all of it (music)