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Smiles Northwest always invests in the latest technology, has their own in-office dental lab, and are constantly training their team in the newest advancements in dentistry. Visit smilesnw.com and book an appointment today. You're listening to Let's Talk Jobs, where we give you practical insights into jobs and careers. Today, we're talking about building your own international creative agency, and joining us is Andre Oliveira.

Andre, how you doing? - Hey Tim, doing well and you, thank you so much for having me. - Yeah, you know, you and I have worked a lot in the past, but maybe just get us started, like what is it you're doing, and what are you doing at Pixel Matters?

- Yeah, so we are a digital product studio. We basically partner with tech companies from all over the world, but especially U.S. based to basically to elevate their products into a whole new level, being a website, a web app, or a mobile app. And yeah, we have been doing it for 10 years now.

We are roughly a team of 60, we try to differentiate ourselves by the level of quality of the work, and process, and communication that we have, and our culture around all of those things. - Cool, and I probably should have introduced even better earlier, you're the CEO and founder of Pixel Matters, and Andrei, I'm kind of curious, did you, were you always creative?

Like coming out of school, like what led you here? - Yeah, so to answer that, I maybe have to go back to my roots. So I don't know about, I'm not sure how it is in the U.S., but here in Portugal, where I'm from, and where we are based, when you are at the ninth grade, and before you switch to the 10th, you have to basically pick like a course, right?

Like something to study. And back then, as the majority of the kids of that age, maybe 14, 15, something like that, I really didn't knew what I wanted to do for my life. Like I was too young, and sometimes school doesn't necessarily like gives you a good indicator of what your path may be.

So the only thing that really I valued back then was the fact, or I highlighted back then, was the fact that I had like a whole computer in which I played some games like Counter-Strike. - Oh yeah. - Call of Duty, things like that, you know? - Yes. - And so it felt like, I'm not studying informatics.

And I went on to study informatics. I did the 10th grade of informatics, but the problem was that it had too much code. Like, and it was too much math to my brain, let's call it that way. And so I switched to a multimedia course, not because I knew what I wanted to do, but simply I had a friend that switched to that same course, and I wanted like to keep studying with that friend.

So these are like the, I mean, there is luck along the way, right? Of course, there is a lot of hard work, but there is also some luck, and this is an example of that. And so with that multimedia course, what I basically found out was my passion. And my passion was clearly, and still is to this day, like the digital design, like UX, UI in particular.

So I really try to specialize and to know as much as I possibly could about that. And so after a period of unemployment after the school, I eventually found out my first job, my second job. Then I started working as a freelancer, like and I received some inquiries via Dribbble, BS, and websites of that kind.

And one day the inquiries started to pile up, like then referrals, like a client brings another client, a client brings another client. And so before I could even think twice about it, I have an open business and I have like people working with me in my apartment. So I'm trying to consolidate it as in the most succinct way I possibly can.

- Yeah, you know, that's very consistent actually with even my impression of you, 'cause you're talking about building relationship through, I mean, building business through relationships, right? And through referrals. And that's exactly the first impression I had with you as well, like your strength in building relationship with clients through good work and building rapport and honesty is really, I feel like what differentiates you with a lot of the other, even at an individual level, not even just at a company level, like you as an individual, 'cause a lot of times we engage with a service provider or whatever, based on the first interaction with the first rep, right?

And that individual carries with them the burden of representing the whole brand. And if that's a bad experience, you kind of don't wanna do work with them. So can you help me understand? So all right, you got folks in your living room and taking the leap from that to, I guess, incorporating or creating Pixel Matters, like did you have the name Pixel Matters or did it come afterwards?

Like how did this all come about? - No, we have the name Pixel Matters from the very beginning. So I have a friend that started the business with me in the early days. He left in the meantime, but the company was incorporated as like a 50/50. And back then, I remember we were just like brainstorming on Skype.

This is like 2012 or 2013, something like that. And we were like combining words, you know? And there was a moment in which we combined Pixel Matters and we both felt, oh, this one will be amazing. And I remember Googling and because I was expecting like something to exist with the name Pixel Matters, to my like surprise, nothing existed.

And we were like, okay, this is it. This is the name, let's go for it. We opened it up the entity on December 17, 2013. And the motivation for it was the fact that we have a big client that appeared into our front door, a client from Ghana. It was the only client ever we ever had from Africa, but it was clearly an important one in which we basically estimated the project into like 20K or 25K, which was like an enormous amount of money.

And none of us were like comfortable to receive that amount into our own personal bank accounts without like a proper justification, you know? And so that was like the catalyst, let's call it that way, to open up the entity. And from that point onwards, yeah, the business just kept on evolving like organically.

We are completely different from the usual companies that we work with as our clients and the companies that you work with at least in the recent years as well, in the sense that we are like old fashioned, you know? It's like, I own 100% of the business. We have no investors.

We are profitable nearly every month, otherwise like there will be no business. And so it's a simple structure from that perspective. I don't know if I answered your question. - No, you did, yeah. Yeah, you know, I don't know if I ever told you, Andre, I've always really liked the name Pixel Matters because I have, so as a digital marketer, I have a very specific phrase I use almost at every single job I join, and that is that every pixel has to have a purpose.

You know, like- - There you go. - Coming from the agency side, clients are always saying, "Oh, build it like Apple, build it." It's like, yes, Apple has a wonderful site. It's true and it's beautiful. There's a lot of analytics behind that which you don't have visibility into. So just copying it, you know, or Stripe, beautiful website as well.

You just can't copy it if you don't know what's really working 'cause you don't have the data. And so like, you can't just arbitrarily throw colors on a page. So yeah, for me, it's like every pixel has to be put there intentionally. If it's not, get it out of there.

(laughs) - Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I don't remember you saying that, at least not in that way. So yeah, yeah, thanks, appreciate it. But yeah, indeed, Modesty aside, it's really a name that has served us well because it kind of facilitates the pitch. Like the company name kind of says like 75% of the whole idea we want to convey to a potential client.

So yeah, so just to touch on the relationship point, because I missed that part just a while ago, that is to say that, I mean, I'm glad that that's something that comes across, at least for someone like you that has worked with us in the past, because I think that at the very foundation of that is a relatively simple like idea and concept, which is the fact that we, like I never propose of myself to create a company or in this case, an agency, just for the sake of like billing man hours, you know?

I did it with the intention to try to do work that really has an impact on the client business, in whatever form that may be, but to really have an impact instead of just doing it for the sake of doing it or doing for the sake of receiving some financial upside in exchange.

And because of that, even when you aren't the client yet, like even if you are a lead, our approach is always like help first, sell secondly, you know? So the sale is always like secondary. And because, I mean, to me, that is the only way in which it makes sense, always with the mindset of like playing the long game instead of like looking for short-term gains.

- Yeah, you know, I'm kind of wondering, so you're uniquely positioned in this call, I see amongst everyone I've talked to so far, because you are an international firm, right? Because everyone I've been speaking to so far has been very stateside. And when we're evaluating design partners or whatnot, like especially in today's climate, like budget becomes a really important thing.

And so if it's not an internal headcount, choosing to do business with a stateside firm could be an expensive prospect, right? And usually the argument for staying stateside is like, oh, you know, maybe they're in the same time zone or whatever it is, or maybe they're close to us and do in-person meetings.

But I'm finding that that reason is starting to become a lot less important than cost, only 'cause in this climate right now, like companies are just struggling, they're just trying to stay alive 'cause the economy is so crazy. So it's opened the door more to working with international firms.

So I'm kind of curious on your side, like how do you, I think building relationships obviously is one way of kind of creating state US-based customers, but is that an intentional strategy of yours? Is the majority of your customers still based out of Portugal? And what are the challenges you faced?

Time zone is probably one of them, but working with customers who are not in Portugal, not local, what challenges do you face? - Like historically, roughly 90 to 90% of our revenue comes from US-based companies. So we do have a few local like Portuguese clients, but we are talking about like 5 to 10% in annual revenue over all these years.

So it's not very relevant. So yeah, we have been dealing with this kind of remote collaboration for 10 years now. I think the value prop that we try to offer to our clients, and actually I've been on a call with a lead, like a potential client that said this almost with using the same exact words, which is we try to position ourselves in a way that we provide a value of the same level of quality that the US-based agency does, but for a fraction of the cost.

While not being the cheapest option that you find like in the market, right? Because obviously the cost of living and the cost of employment and goods and whatever in Portugal is quite different from other places in the world. So, and we don't want to compete in price anyway. So that's the kind of sweet spot that we try to position ourselves.

- In addition to this, I would say that the pandemic and the change that happened in the work paradigm really, really made the difference. Because what I found these days is that everyone is kind of distributive anyways, you know? So very few companies are like office driven like they were before the pandemic, especially the bigger ones.

Like the bigger you are, the harder it gets to have an approach to that kind. So everyone is already like deal, user to deal with the time zone difference, the need for a sync communication, the need to have like documented processes or, you know, like some basics for a remote collaboration to go well.

That partnering with someone that is overseas, that is indeed on a different time zone, it's really not something that like matters as long as the work is done and with quality and the relationship is good. So that's what I find. That doesn't mean that we are not feeling the impact of the current market.

Those are two different things because yeah, things are wrong out there. - Yeah, I mean, I definitely wanna talk about surviving the pandemic, but before I get there, I'm kind of curious, you know, you said something that I didn't even think about, which is, you know, the community that you work with, they're either a custom or have experience working with very remote, different time zone customers, right?

And so I was wondering, you know, because the time zones are so different, oftentimes I'm working with, for me, an offshore team, the value of not having the same time zone is by the time you get into work, the work that you need to get completed is already done, right?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But then there's always time for feedback. And depending on the resource type, right? Like design, it's more, you can mostly package and hand off, but like when we're doing development work, sometimes that requires us to be online at the same time, right? And so, is it hard for you to, you know, find the resources who are willing to work like US-based hours or how do you meet the middle?

- I mean, I guess we are lucky in the sense that all of our team is in Portugal and we in Portugal are in a very like central place of the world and like looking at the US, even if you are in like California, like you are, we still manage to have at least a daily overlap of time of two to three hours.

And not only because of the time zone difference, but also because the fact that usually like Americans like yourself get up like quite early, which is for us great because if you got out of bed at 10 a.m., things will be different. So I guess with the combination of luck, which is the context that I just described and the fact that we have a process that is very well oiled, we have the right communication tools in place, things just work well.

And I can tell you that apart from a few exceptions over the years, we never felt the need, for example, to adjust our schedule to, let's imagine like having our team starting to work at 11 in the morning or noon or something like that. That never happened simply because like it was never needed, right?

So the only thing that happens is like, okay, today's lunch day or there is something important, let's, we stay longer through the day or we wake up earlier or whatever it may be. But always with good sense and looking at what's best for the challenge that is in front of us.

- Yeah, I'm kind of wondering, beyond the client side, I've seen a shift post-pandemic around the need to demonstrate ROI for every dollar spent, right? And that manifests itself in different ways, right? For someone like me, who's come from the agency side, I have a little more empathy of the process that you go through.

And so when it comes to prioritizing the work and working with a partner like you, like I do a lot of upfront work to make sure you're set for success, which sets me up for success. But I don't see that all across the board. I see a lot of frantic planning, where budgets are cut.

Now you need to squeeze as much as you can out of it. And from what I observed, and this is not just, and not my current company, but my previous companies, and actually from stories I hear from other friends as well, is that because you demonstrate that ROI, the focus of what you send the agency partner down becomes more vague.

They just ask a lot, ask a lot, ask a lot, trying to squeeze as much lemonade out of the lemons, which is a decreasing budget. Have you noticed that shift as well, in terms of how clients work with you, how they speak to you? Do you feel like you're treated more as a commodity now than before?

Or anything of that nature? - That's an interesting question. I think the change that we have felt, timing-wise, was not in the pandemic. So basically what we felt in the pandemic was like a V recovery, in the sense that in March 2020, April 2020, the world was in shock, and everyone went crazy, and there was like a stock market crash, and everyone was like, what the hell is this thing?

And now we have to be closer at home. And so there was like a panic going on. But immediately afterwards, what followed was like a growth in all companies that have like a digital offering of something that is usually done offline, like online education. Even Zoom, where we are right now, grew like crazy over the months that followed, because suddenly every grandma in the US was doing a Zoom call with their kids almost on a daily basis.

And so it was like a drop, and we felt that, but the market recovered very rapidly, and 2021 and 2022 have been like way better years from a financial and economic standpoint in tech, not necessarily in the rest of the world, but in tech it was... In fact, in 2021, at least that's my reading, it was like the top of the bubble that exploded in the meantime.

So that said, what I think that really changed was like in late 2022, early 2023, where the tech market correction really started to be felt and all the layoffs, and I mean, all those things, that's where what you just described really started to play a big part at the negotiation table.

Like, I'm not sure if the right way to put it is ROI. To me, it's more like the money is no longer cheap, and so therefore the cost of a dollar is way bigger than it was before. And so companies, even though they still have the cash, they don't have like the openness to invest that cash, and it's way harder to get those budgets to be invested on whatever it may be.

In our case, it's a service. So definitely like a big change and really, really challenging times right now that I think everyone in the industry is feeling, and we are not an exception. Regarding us being like a commodity, I think that part, it's not really something that I can say that, yes, we felt that, no, because the type of service that we provide is usually very attached to the long-term success of the business.

I will give like a simple example. Let's say that we are working on the revamp of your product, like your company has a very outdated product, users complain, or they don't understand how to use it, so there are UX problems, your UI is a complete mess, you have no like digital identity, right?

And so there is a need to clean all that up. In the tech front, like your backend is a mess or your frontend is completely outdated, and there is a need to revamp everything. And so when we are working on those type of projects that are so close to the heart of the business, definitely we are not like a commodity, and that's where we feel like we want to, we are more valuable at, and that's where our clients value us the most.

When we are working on something that is like more like a side priority to the business, that's where usually the sentence comes, something in the line of, "Oh, Pixelmatrix is the most expensive line item "I have on my spreadsheet, "so I have to cut somewhere, it will be on you." So that's more or less how I would put it.

But it will be very interesting to listen also what you think about these changes. - You know, it's interesting to me your last statement, which is Pixelmatter is being the most expensive line item, that hasn't been my experience with your agency in particular. So typically, just for everyone out there, right?

When you're, there's always the three factors of like speed, quality, cost. And the rule of thumb is you usually can't have all three. You can have two at the sacrifice of one, right? So you can have speed and cost, but quality could be down. Or you can have, take your time with high quality, but the cost would be high, right?

But like Pixelmatter is in my experience, and this is a huge kind of shout out to you guys, you somehow, in my mind, managed to achieve all three. Meaning the cost compared to the rates of US-based companies is advantageous, right? The quality of output is always really, really good.

And you somehow deliver it quickly. I remember in the past when evaluating vendors, all the time working with you even, or trying to bring you on as I move companies myself, what I've discovered is rate for rate versus quality of talent, that's where you start feeling the difference, right?

Like if you try and compare to a US-based company, and they try to match the rate that you guys are doing, because you're offshore, it's about location, right? Now you're comparing a junior talent versus a mid to senior level talent, just based on budget. So for me, choosing not to do business with Pixelmatters isn't because you're the most expensive line item.

What I'm experiencing now is just spending money at all. - I have. - Yeah, like I come in with an envelope that was healthy this year, and I was like, oh, cool. I have a budget spent last year. The budget's flat year over year. I just got to spend it again.

My team overachieved last year. So far, it's looking like it's doing that again. So I was like, cool, like conventional wisdom would be like, let me just at least invest in the same areas, and maybe it'll grow, or maybe, or whatnot. But I'm finding right now that even though I have a budget, getting it approved to be spent is something else.

And even if I come to the table and say, hey, look, I have all the metrics to prove ROI on the spend, why it's strategically aligned to the business priorities, as well as my own organization's priorities and the yield, even then it's a tough sell. And I can understand.

The trade-off is, are you gonna spend 50K in one area of the business, or is that gonna go towards keeping someone's employed? So I understand the trade-offs that companies make, as well as protecting company value and stock price. So I get that, but the climate is just so weird, man.

And there's things that are just table stakes that I would think should be a no-brainer, and it's just requiring a little bit more scrutiny than usual. - Yeah, I mean, I'm happy to listen to what you just said, and I think it will be interesting for folks that are listening to this, especially folks that are on my shoes.

And I know that because of all the community local that I have, there will be, for sure, a lot of other founders from agencies that will listen to the pod, because what you just described is exactly what I'm feeling. The money is there. The willingness to spend the money doesn't exist, which is what you just said.

And so it's a very weird moment in time, because you question yourself, what can you do to change things around and to start to close lids and all of that? And it's tough, because even if you arrive into the front door of the right clients, if they aren't willing to invest and to spend the money, what can you do?

So I don't know if you have any tips for me, but it feels a bit, yeah, I'm not sure what to do regarding that, other than keeping investing in the quality of the work, the processes, the team, the brand, and preparing ourselves for a recovery. - Yeah, the path I'm taking right now, and you're a part of this journey as well, 'cause you and I obviously we talk a lot and you were sounding board for one another, or trying to create opportunity with each other.

I came in this year with the original thought that, hey, I can just translate my budget year over year. And so it was a large line item, and it was quickly dismissed. So I'm doing a different method now, where it's like, I need to prove, first of all, that I'm maximizing utilization of internal resources, 'cause that's gonna be the very first things that come to mind.

We have designers in-house, we don't want them to be impacted, so make sure they're fully utilized, even if it's utilized in a way that falls outside their comfort zone, right? They're a designer, they're not typical UX/UI web designers, but can you make it work? And as a leader, I need to figure out where that skillset can fit in without negative impacting anybody.

So my approach now, and I'm still working on it, Andre, is going the other way around, which is like, let's start small. And small means different things to different businesses, right? For startups, small could be a $5,000 engagement. For a large company, small could be $50,000 or more. It's totally different.

But the idea is like taking something, maybe like two or three key priority projects, and just starting there to prove value, right? And so that's what I'm trying to do now, and it's across the board, whether it's a technology investment, or a service investment, I'm just trying to get it in there.

And once the spend is in there, you're in the system, and you're proving work, people can then see, right? So again, it's just a different model. And in this case, it's bringing on a new relationship, like I'm actively talking to you, trying to see if we can do some work, right?

But even with existing vendors, it's surprisingly going through the same level. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I also felt that right now, I'm not feeling that very heavily, but with like the boom of AI, and I mean, of course, ChatGPT has been like the key milestone, but obviously a lot more has been happening, and being launched ever since.

I also felt that like the expectations from clients regarding how much time things take to be done, really like changed dramatically on, not right now, I think now things are a little bit more stabilized, and everyone kind of realized that AI, at least for now, won't do all the work for you.

But in the, like half a year ago, or something like that, we really felt that change in people's expectations, and the perception of how much something takes to be done. Like I had CMOs telling me like, "Andrei, how much time do you think that like five pages take to be done?" I'm asking because my CEO says that now with AI, and Webflow, it should take three days.

And I was like, "Am I missing something?" Or, you know, and so there was like a big, as if the market economic correction wasn't enough, AI also brought some more pressure to the table, because you are now supposed to be more efficient, more like, more productive, faster. And I'm not saying this meaning that we are ignoring the change, no.

But the change is like progressive, you know, it's not something that from one day to the other, you cut something that will, before chat GPT will take one year, and now you can make it into two weeks. It's not really like that, so. - Yeah, this has come up for me as well.

And the way I kind of help educate people is AI is definitely here, it requires a conductor. So AI can only do so much as it's being inputted. And so usually when I have this conversation, I was like, "Look, the strategy piece "can't be replicated by AI." So you're coming in and setting groundwork.

Now, once you inform the AI, it can augment work. So for example, like we're like, for Adobe, Adobe Firefly, right? They're kind of embedding design capabilities. And actually even with Adobe, they're introducing like Gen AI. And they have this thing where, based on the algorithms they have, they can do things like instantaneously grabbing from a library of images.

Of course, they have a lot of stock images, right? They can do a thing where, let's say you're doing a webpage, and it can automate iterations of an image like 100 times within like a week. And it can iterate, iterate, and then automatically self-select to a winner. Great. The quality of those images are questionable, right?

But again, there is value in automation, but it can't replace a strategy of it. And so that's where I go back to like, anyone who's trying to do this is like, you need to think through like how you're going to use the AI and that requires a human. But AI will augment the work, right?

And so there are, but I don't think we're at the place yet, and we might be soon, where the AI cuts quality of work. I think it allows you to iterate quicker, but those iterations are also, they're not always ready for final production though. So it just allows you to speed up your brainstorming process possibly.

But like, I have so much respect for like creatives and developers. There's some things you just can't take shortcuts on. And actually I feel developers probably feel the AI crunch even more, 'cause AI can actually spit out code now, right? And it's a lot more data driven and a lot less subjective than creative.

So those folks, for my developer friends, they're really feeling it. They're like, people coming out of college right now, they can just spit in the code and then kick out a package. And like, yeah, that's hard. - Yeah. No, yeah, it's a multiplier of productivity, but I think you put it out well in the sense that if you don't know what you want to do or what type of outcome you are looking for, AI won't make it up for you.

So there is also always some level of thought that needs to go into play. One of the sentences I like the most about this AI revolution is AI won't replace you, a person using AI will. - Yes. - Because I really identify myself with the thinking behind that. And I think that's where the things are headed.

- I think a good example, and I even, I tweeted about that is, I don't know if you saw like the Vercel, they launched something called V0, which is basically, I have access to like a beta or test account or whatever. And basically it's a site, and you go there and you say, build me like a calendar app for my barbershop, whatever.

It may be. And it literally gives you like a full fledged product that you can then use and take it as your own product. And so these things are happening and it's really a revolution. I think one of the few like protections that we human beings have from that, to avoid all of us to become unemployed, all of the sudden is IP.

Because if I am like an early stage founder and I'm scrapping my ideas and testing an MVP for 10 of my friends or whatever it may be, it's totally fine to use that and to use that AI generated code and be dependent on Vercel, which is a private business to run my product, right?

Like it's fine, I don't have revenue, I'm just testing things out. But if I am like a big company listed in the stock exchange or even a smaller one, but the company with already some like importance in the market, I can't have a product that depends on another privately owned company.

And it was generated by AI, which in itself already has like concerns regarding the IP of the code that it gets, like there are concerns in the community regarding GitHub Copilot and all of that. And so what path do I need to run? I need to build my own product with my own code.

Maybe AI is used into the mix, but it's like just as a facilitator and always reviewed by a human, but I can't afford to have my products being built on top of like Vercel or whatever it may be. So I don't know if this makes sense. I haven't spoke with too many people about this, but it's something that like crossed my mind a few times already.

- Yeah, I mean, I definitely know that our company has, we are not allowed to use things like ChatDBT because it's aggregating the data and you can't have content risk being made public. And now it's public domain, right? And so we're utilizing tools internally that are like that. But I remember from my own stuff, to your point around people who use AI are better positioned to replace you.

I totally believe that. An example of this would be like, I was writing for my own personal projects. I was writing some headlines and blogs and someone asked me to help them write like a paragraph. Now, normally my research process would be going to Google and like learn as much as I can, right?

But I was able to do things like a ChatDBT, write me a paragraph about insert topic, utilizing these five keywords in the tone of someone who is insert persona, limited to 500 characters for the high-tech space, specifically in electronics. And it spit me off some people, right? Like the more thought you put into directing the AI, the more successful.

But that's why I say it requires a conductor. And that's why AI can't just replace you outright. But you're right, if you know how to utilize it, then yeah, you're a lot better positioned. - There will be people making a lot of money on selling out to make the ultra-right Google prompts.

- Yeah, that's true. - Right, because the quality of the prompt is extremely important and really has an impact on the output that you get. So yeah, I totally understand that. At the same time, and I don't want to drag this topic so much, but it's so fascinating, right?

At the same time, I can tell you that, and maybe you have this experience yourself, from like a recruitment standpoint, we have in our application form, we have like three questions. One of them is like, "Why pixel managers?" And "Why you are a fit for the role?" Or one sentence about you, something along those lines.

And I can tell you that even without using any tool, I can immediately like almost smell when someone just copy-pasted or something like that, something from ChatGPT. And that is happening right now. And so while I understand this is like, it's a phase that we will go through, like AI is very, like it's a baby yet for now.

But what I mean to say with this is that I think that as more people adopt AI, for example, to write, the more valuable it will become to write something like very authentic and genuine and something that really comes from your heart and it's very raw, you know? Because people will notice this wasn't written by a bot.

So there is that as well. It's like an opportunity that to me clearly exists in the midst of all the revolution. - Yeah, absolutely. And I think just kind of wrapping this up for everyone, you know, my key takeaway from this conversation is, you know, for a agency going through this climate, the quality absolutely matters, right?

But I think what differentiates you at the end of the day when you go beyond the dollars and cents is that relationship piece. And I think your ability specifically to build that relationship, build that trust, and in some ways, just being a pure sounding board for me, whether we do business or not, is something that echoes very constantly with me, right?

And so that's why I'm always thinking about Pixel Matters because of that relationship. So maybe that's the only way for now to kind of get through this and we find creative ways of getting, you know, getting foot into the door, but these are things that have lasting impressions on clients.

So Andre, I just want to thank you for your time. And I learned a lot from this conversation and look forward to hopefully having you on again and just talking about anything else you want to talk about. - Yeah, Tim, thank you so much for having me and you are always so kind and you are right, like the relationships really matter.

And we, whenever we work with someone that we like, like you, we look at the person and not to the role that the person has, you know? And so I'm happy that we have stayed in touch during good times, bad times. Now we are doing this podcast together. So yeah, I really appreciate it for you to give me the opportunity and enjoy, really enjoy the conversation as always.

- Well, congratulations again on your 10 year anniversary. For everyone, pixelmatters.com is where you want to go or reach out to Andre Oliveira on LinkedIn. Thank you so much, Andre. - Thank you. - All right, talk to you later. (upbeat music) you