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That's FijiAirways.com. From here to happy. Flying direct with Fiji Airways. Today, I'm going to have my first interview guest. Before we start, I have a few points I'd like to cover. First, I don't want you to focus on who the guest is when you see it pop up in your iTunes feed.

I have access to some very smart, successful people, and my goal is to ask them the right questions to help us take a step further today. Since this is my first time, it did take a little time for me to get my flow going, and the second half of the show really starts to cover some great insights.

I know this episode is very long, and I debated cutting it into two, but what I've chosen is to just release it as one and let you choose how to break it up and listen to it based on your schedule. Don't worry if it takes you a few different sessions to make it all the way through.

There are going to be a lot of pearls that come out, and as we get to the second half, we will talk more about habits and mindsets. Since this is my first interview, I'm essentially leaping with a parachute. After all, what's the worst that could have happened? I could have just scrapped it and never released it.

Today we're going to chat with Joshua Sheets at RadicalPersonalFinance.com. Joshua has a ton of letters after his name with regards to his financial credentials, and I'm going to let him tell you all about them. Joshua is the embodiment of someone who walked away from a lucrative career to live life on his terms.

Joshua lives on far less than most of us and enjoys his life in Palm Beach, Florida, where he can spend the day with his kids at the beach and still have enough income to live the life he chooses to live. His podcast, Radical Personal Finance, is an amazing collection of in-depth knowledge on various financial topics.

I encourage you to check it out. Without further delay, let's talk to Joshua. Hello Joshua Sheets. Welcome to Rich or Soul. Thank you for joining us today. Awesome to be with you. Hey, it's awesome to have you here too. I know that you have a lot of experience and background in finance, and you've got a lot, a lot of letters after your name.

It's a little bit obscene, eh? Can you spout them all off? So the letters, if I can remember them all as I usually use them, is Joshua J. Sheets, MSFS, CFP, CLU, CHFC, CASL, RHU, REBC. And they stand for Masters of Science in Financial Services, which is a master's degree in financial planning.

CFP is a certified financial planner designation. CLU is Chartered Life Underwriter, which is a life insurance designation. CHFC stands for Chartered Financial Consultant, which is similar to the CFP in terms of its scope. CASL is Chartered Advisor for Senior Living, which is a small kind of retirement planning specialty.

What comes next? RHU is Registered Health Underwriter, which is a health insurance specialty. And REBC is Registered Employee Benefits Consultant, which is a specialization in employee benefits. So I don't think anybody has ever gotten all those details out from me. Oh, that's wonderful. So clearly, suffice to say, you understand money, you understand planning, and you understand how to do all of that.

And you actually spent some time being a financial planner, working for a company. So what was that kind of background all about? Yeah, so I've always interested in money. Started when I was younger, when I was a teenager, reading books on personal finance and investing. And after college, I worked in the business world for a little bit, doing some marketing consulting as a low-level analyst.

And I got laid off from a job. I didn't know what to do, but I knew I wanted to build my own business, but I didn't have any great ideas about what product to sell. And so finally, I figured out, well, if I go into the financial services business, I can run my own business as an entrepreneur, get all of the benefits of entrepreneurship without having to come up with a product.

So for that, plus my longtime interest in finance, I joined a company called Northwestern Mutual. And I spent a total of six years with Northwestern Mutual from 2008 till 2014, working as a financial advisor. I learned a lot. It was a tremendous experience. I taught me a lot, which I then brought to the world of financial media, because I got so frustrated with all of the media options that were out there at that time.

Well, so that's an interesting thing. So you have this lucrative career, in a sense, paid your dues, and you're probably turning a corner there, and you're about to make a lot of money, and you quit. There are two corners in the financial advice business. One is three years. It took me three years until I finally felt like, okay, I'm not going to die.

And then after five years, if you can make it five years, the industry statistics say that you'll make it, everything's golden. The financial services business is a weird business. It's a very delayed, deferred compensation business. In the first few years, you are way overworked and underpaid. And then the goal is, in the back of your career, to get to the point where you're underworked and overpaid, if you can get there.

But there's tremendous attrition, and it's tremendously challenging to start it as a business because you're basically combining the learning process that many professionals go to school for, law school, medical school, et cetera, you're combining the learning process with entrepreneurship, but building a business. And entrepreneurship is very, very challenging.

And then because of the slow moving pace of financial services clients, it takes a long time to build it up. So yes, after five years, I was finally in a position to where I felt like I could really start to rest. I was doing well. My practice was established.

I was working in an area specializing in retirement planning. I had done all those designations. I finally wasn't as scared going into client meetings as I was when I was 23 years old. And I was ready to do it. And I was making good money. I had passive income, I think $3,000, $4,000 a month of passive income, which since I'm good at living on low amounts of money, allowed me to have the flexibility that I had always wanted to not have to work in any given month if I didn't want to, if I just wanted to sit back and enjoy my renewals and my steady, again, passive income.

And then I walked away from it all, which was a very expensive decision and not an easy one to make. So why did you leave? Why did you walk away from it all? I have this crazy idea that life and business and career can be really well integrated. And I would say that the financial services business for me was probably about a 75% good fit.

There are some aspects of me and my interests that fit really well in the financial services business, but there's about 25% of it that didn't fit me very well and certain things about it. And I mean, there's lots... I know what those things are. Would you mind sharing? Sure.

Yeah. The first thing that always dogged my heels in the financial services business is I get bored very easily. So all of those financial planning designations mean I'm good at taking tests. But there were other people who didn't take a single test and who just put their nose to the grindstone and saw client after client after client and made a lot more money than I did in six years.

So I had this impressive string of designations after my name. Other people had more money because they worked harder. Well, me, I got bored stiff having the same conversation again and again and again and again, which is why I study. I like to learn. So I used to feel like if I have to sit down at one more kitchen table with another young couple and explain what term life insurance is and how the different options are for how term life insurance works and whole life insurance and here's what it is and here's how it works and disability insurance, I would get so frustrated.

I don't want to do this. What on earth should I repeat the same thing a hundred times with a hundred people when I can just make a tape recording and say, here, listen to this and do it and fill out these applications. Like I don't want to repeat the same thing over and over again.

And that is not a good character trait to have for success in the financial services business. You should be able to do the same thing over and over again. So I have a very restless personality. I like to learn. And so what that would mean is that basically about every two years or every year, two years, I would completely redesign my practice and I would say, okay, I'm going to go from life insurance.

I'm going to become a long-term care insurance specialist. Now I'm going to move to disability insurance and I study everything there was to know. And now I'm going to go to invest in sound and go to retirement planning, et cetera. And so I knew that about myself that I couldn't conceive of having the same conversations for over the course of a 30 year career.

I was bored stiff. And so I knew I needed to make a change. Now I was pretty, I had a lot of flexibility in that business, but when I worked out my master plan for the media business that I now run, I felt like it would give me, it would work with my personality because I love to always be learning something new.

And for a learner, when you can put a learner into the role of a teacher and get paid for teaching that's basically heaven on earth for a learner. That sounds awesome. So I know a lot of people today are hopping into the internet business. There's tons of ads comes across my Facebook of how, you know, within three months you go from nothing to a million followers and money is just flying in the door and you're living in your fancy house with the Ferraris in the garage.

What's the reality of this and what was the hardest part for you to make this transition? Well, let's start with the hardest part because that will go into the reality. The hardest part for me was I had no idea what the transition was be like. The analogy that I use is that for me to build what I wanted to build, which is a media company around financial education and I want to get rich doing it.

For me to do that was basically like saying I'm going to get rich by writing a bestselling novel. I mean, it's possible in theory, like there have been people who've gotten rich by writing bestselling novels, but the ability to actually force that process to happen, to plan it out and to do it is complete.

I mean, it's not possible to prove that. It's more of, okay, certain things come together at the right time and the audience responds. So when I was trying to build out a business plan in order to support my family, because I'm not financially independent and I wasn't in the place where I could just live on the income from my investments, I'd spent six years building this business and for me to walk away, I walked away from all of it.

Like I walked away from two pensions. I walked away from all my clients, all my revenue. So I didn't know how long it would be until the new business made any money. So the big challenge was figuring out how can I do it? I didn't know, do I need to save $10,000 in the bank?

Do I need to save $100,000 in the bank? Do I need to float my expenses for 10 years? How does this work? So the conclusion I came to as well, if I just work, find some job that doesn't require me to make any kind of long-term commitment, but it's sufficient for me to pay my bills and do that while building the business, then I'll be able to do it.

So that was what I did and it took a year. It took me a year of hard work before I was able to support my family based upon the revenue and the income from the business. So to the question of internet businesses, is it possible to build an internet business that in a relatively short period of time?

Yes, I've done it. In a year, my business was profitable enough to support my family and to make, I spend about $3,000 a month. So it was able to get to that point in about a year, which was good and it's continued to grow since then. But I would say that I think a lot of the dreams about internet businesses are certainly not anchored in reality.

It's a business just like anything else. And yes, it's nice to sit at home and work from home, but there are a lot of days where you doubt what you're doing and you want to go get a job. I mean, entrepreneurship is days where you are thrilled about how phenomenal what you're doing is, and there's days where you just want to go get a job.

And so it's a business like anything else with high points and low points and challenges. And the internet is just a medium, a different way for you to market and sell your products. There's no magic in it. And I'm sure there's people sitting at work now dreaming of having their own business.

Hey, I've been there. I've been there. And I think that's normal. It's normal. My experience with entrepreneurs has been that is the normal process, even including internet people. If you talk to people who aren't trying to sell you a course on how to get rich online, you'll find that most of us will give the same answer.

It's great. Now we love it. It works for us, but it's not perfect. Nothing is perfect. It's hard work. Absolutely. It's a lot of hard work. Trust me. I have bled and sweat and poured myself into what I've done. It has been many, many thousands of hours of hard work.

So I was listening to one of your recent shows and you made a comment. You said, "Financial planners don't know how to write financial plans." And so I was wondering a little bit about that. What was that kind of about? I think it was maybe it's that they're salespeople or maybe there was something else.

So all these terms are very nebulous and I'll break it down in a few ways. The whole financial industry is fundamentally broken because there's a major disconnect between how people talk and as far as how advisors and how experts talk versus what people actually do and how people act.

So first let's talk about the word financial advisor. Financial advisor, if we didn't have any context from financial services, could mean many different things. Let's say that I'm helping somebody figure out how to write down a balance their checkbook. Well, I'm advising them on their finances, so I'm therefore a financial advisor.

Or if I'm helping somebody get a good deal on a mortgage by selling them a mortgage, I'm advising them on a major component of their finances. I'm a financial advisor. But of course, we usually refer to the term financial advisor as somebody who sells stocks or sells securities. That's the technical industry term.

And if your business card says financial advisor on it, you need to be registered with the SEC and you're going to be registered as somebody who's working in the world of securities. So let's zoom in. Just because somebody works in the world of selling stocks and bonds doesn't necessarily mean that they give good financial advice.

Notice I said they sell stocks and bonds. So traditionally, most of us who come in our business cards say financial advisor. Most of us, what we do fundamentally is sell stocks, bonds, and mutual funds. That's where we make our money. And so traditionally, the industry has often simply used what I'll call financial planning or the delivery of financial plans, which is a good component of financial advice, as a sales tool to sell stocks, bonds, and mutual funds.

Now that's all well and good. We all need to buy some stocks, bonds, and mutual funds from time to time. But now let's home in on the question of financial planning. So now there's a major growth and a major emphasis on financial planning as a discipline that's separate and disconnected from financial advice.

I am an expert financial planner. I'm not a portfolio manager. I'm not an investment manager. I'm not a guru in those areas, but I'm a very good financial planner. But now we have a problem that the industry, the CFP board, et cetera, has this concept of financial planning that's built around this very traditional US American mainstream go work in a corporate job, save money, put money in a retirement account, allocate your money and retire at 65.

And so that's what we who come from the industry are taught to do. Well, the problem is that those activities are not usually the things that lead to wealth. So most of the time, yes, you can save money and put money in a mutual fund. And if you wait 40 years, you'll wind up wealthy.

But most people are drowning in debt. And what they actually need is budget coaching. And that'll make a bigger difference. Or many people, their careers are on, you know, stuck in first gear. And if they could get from first gear to fifth gear over the course of a few years and massively increase their income, they would be in a situation where they can make a ton of money.

And so these are the aspects of financial advice that are very, very important. And this is where the industry is struggling, because you can plug many financial plans into a computer and have a computer spit out the proper thing, asset allocation, insurance planning, et cetera. That can all be done by a computer.

But how do you motivate somebody? How do you motivate somebody to save money who's not saving money? How do you teach somebody how to earn better? How do you teach somebody their control? And so at almost every level, the way that we in the financial services industry try to help people, we're very good if you're rich.

We're very good at telling you what to do with your money and how to keep it and how to protect it from the tax man and all that stuff. We're very good at that. But we're not all that good at taking people who are poor and helping them become rich, which is kind of what people want.

And we're not very good at that. When you say people who are poor, can you define what you mean by poor? Do you mean in a lot of debt or are they actually poor poor? I mean, any of those things. You would think that the concept that the financial advisors sell is to say, "Well, you don't have a lot of money." Whether you're very poor or you're drowning in debt, or if you're just kind of normal, you don't have a lot of money, we're going to teach you how to have a lot of money.

But the tool bag that the financial services industry has to solve that problem essentially consists of mutual funds that are put in a Roth IRA, buying some insurance policies, protecting yourself. These are very basic tools and none of them really solve the problem of how do you take people who aren't earning a lot of money and help them earn a lot of money?

How do you take people who aren't saving money and help them to save money? But my evidence for that is just simply if you looked, if you go and you talk to a room full of financial advisors and you say, "How many of you have a target to work with people who earn six-figure incomes or who have half a million dollars of assets?" The vast majority of people who are financial advisors want to work with people who are earning high incomes or have big businesses or who have a lot of money.

So the point is that financial advice is very well delivered to people who are wealthy already or who are going to be wealthy based upon things that are done. But we're not very good at helping people who are poor. Now, before people get all mad at that, I still don't know how to solve that problem.

But for me, radical personal finance is my effort to say, "Let's try to use media and education and try to solve some of those fundamental problems to help people who are poor not be poor anymore so that they can be good clients for professional technical financial advice." That's kind of what I'm trying to do with media.

Excellent. It's a secret plan. Shh, don't tell anyone. At Rich or Soul, we have a secret plan for wealth. It's three steps and it's got a bonus step. So step one is live on less than you earn. Step two is to save that money that you earn. And step three is to make that money that you saved grow.

And the bonus step is to do your best to stay out of debt. Now, I know I've asked you this question before, but I'm going to ask you again for our audience. It's a real simple plan. It's real easy. It doesn't matter how much you make. Everyone could do it and yet hardly anyone does.

Why? So I don't know that there's a single answer as to why. I think we got to attack the problem on a number of different levels. So a good first example would be many people have lives that are ruined by their own lack of character. So what you just laid out as a plan is very simple, but in order to follow it, you have to actually do it.

In order to actually be able to live on less than you make, you have to know how much you make and you know how much your living costs. Well, that's going to require some fundamentals of sitting down with a checkbook and balancing a checkbook or sitting down and making a budget, whether it's as simple as a paper or running a piece of software, et cetera.

But Rocky, you would have, I mean, I don't know if you believe me or not, but I've had so much trouble with so many people trying to get them to do the fundamentals of finance, just the blocking and tackling, the simple things of recording your expenses. It's remarkable how few people have the personal character and fortitude to actually do something as simple as track their expenses.

And we talk about that in an earlier episode where the first thing you need to know is where are you? How much money do you have? How much money do you owe? How much stuff of real value do you have? And write that down. So here's where we are in the map.

And then where do you want to go? And then it's a mathematical formula for getting from here to there. And then the second thing is you've got money coming in every month. We all ask that question at the end of the month, where did it all go? To sit down and figure out where did your money go?

Nobody likes budgets. Nobody likes diets. I agree with both of those. My diet has bacon and ice cream. I love it. It works for me. I don't have a budget, but I know where my money goes and I make sure that it goes where I want it to go.

So we talk about that is you have to know where you're at, where you want to go, and are your habits and your actions following what you want your money to do? I think I've heard it said, every dollar should have a job. So you need to give your money a job of where it should go and what you should do with it.

And it's just surprising because this isn't rocket science. Right. But it's not rocket science, but I don't know the numbers. I'm just going to say basically that simple formula you just gave, it works every time, but you just wiped out 50% of the population, if not more. I'm picking that number up off of a gut instinct, but it's probably more just simply because people don't have the personal character.

They don't have the personal discipline to do something. Now some people are not mentally competent enough to do it. Obviously there are people whose mental incompetence is severe and a handicap, but there are some people who just don't have, you know, who are freaked out by a column of numbers and who get scared of it.

And there are just many people whose personal character is not strong enough to cause them to do that. Now I think there are solutions. For example, here's an example. Generally people are motivated either by pain or pleasure. Right. So if you have somebody who's in a situation where their personal character is not sufficient to allow them to exercise the simplest of financial disciplines, either something needs to happen to where the pain gets really bad.

They're kicked out on their ear on the curb because they bounced their check to their landlord once again. Landlord said, that's it, you're out. And they're going to be embarrassed in front of all their friends. And they say, I got to fix this. And they start saying, how can I fix it?

And they're ready. You know what they're looking for. They really catch a vision of it. Or they catch a vision of, you know what, I want to be financially secure. And they say, I'm going to go after it. I don't know how that, that transformation process happens. I really don't.

I just know that it does happen for some people. And we actually talked about that in two separate episodes on mindset. The first one is the stories we tell ourselves, the things inside our head that prevent us from success. And then there's that outside influence that also comes upon us that makes us think that success is the fancy house or this car or this particular brand of something.

And that's not necessarily so. And we need to make those choices for ourselves. You've met a lot of people. You've interviewed a lot of people. I think you've interviewed people. And actually when you worked, you talked to a lot of people, helping them with their financial plan. When I worked.

When you worked. Yeah. When you worked for someone else. Is that the right answer? When you worked for someone else. When you worked for the man instead of yourself. Now it's enjoyable, right? You're working for yourself. It's love. So there's got to be certain habits that you've seen that differentiate one group of people from another group of people.

Were there certain habits that you saw certain people had versus other people or mindsets that were different between the groups? Yes, there are. And let me cover habits in just a second. Go back to kind of reasons because you talked about mindset. I know that's a major area of focus for you.

T. Harv Eker years ago wrote a book called The Millionaire Mind. And it was all about kind of the stories that we tell ourselves with money. It's a decent book. For people who have had a lot of questions or who didn't have good examples from their parents about money, I think they would benefit the most from it and realize some of the stories they tell themselves about money.

But the big thing that I took away from it was the concept of a financial thermostat. And Harv's point was to say that each person has a different place where they're comfortable. A financial thermostat, a place where they see themselves as comfortable. And this has to do with how much money you earn, how much money you have, et cetera.

There are some people who are comfortable having $7,000 of credit card debt. That's their comfort level. And if they start to inch above that and they start to have $9,000 or $10,000, they start to get really uncomfortable. And they start, "Hey, we got to cut back on our spending and pay things down." Other people have a number of $0 of credit card debt.

Similar things happened with savings. Some people are comfortable as long as they have a positive balance in their checking account or maybe $100 of margin, that's good. Other people are not comfortable unless they have $10,000 in their checking account. And if they start to dip down below, they get very uncomfortable.

So like a thermostat, where you set the thermostat at a certain point, and if the heat gets hotter than that, then the AC kicks on and cools it down. Or if it gets below that, the heat kicks on and picks it up. People do that with their money. They quickly spend money on things that are silly.

I'm thinking of a former neighbor of mine, and they came from very humble beginnings. They came into an inheritance from a family friend that helped them, and they got an inheritance. The first thing they did was go out and buy this fancy riding lawnmower, but not like the cheapish kind that you get at Home Depot, like the John Deere sit-on tractor.

They went and bought a zero-turn commercial level riding lawnmower, a zero-turn mower like the big commercial guys mow to mow their grass. And I'm thinking, "What? Why would anybody spend that much money on a zero-turn riding mower?" But from their background, that was an indulgence. The first thing they did when they got money was to go and spend it, and it was to be spent on something that they enjoyed, something that would be fun.

And their lifestyle was such that having a big fancy lawnmower to mow their grass was important to them, and that made life easier. So as soon as they got into money, they quickly got rid of it all. And you see this happen all the time. And the example that Harvey used in the book, which I think is even better now, I think he used Donald Trump, now our president, Donald Trump.

And he talked about if some people woke up and they found themselves with a million dollars in the bank, they would be so happy. They would just say, "Wow, I've got a million dollars. How fantastic." Well, if Donald Trump woke up and saw that he had a million dollars in the bank, he had a net worth of $1 million, would he be happy?

The man would freak out, and he would say, "What happened to all my money?" And he would immediately go and start doing more deals. But he wouldn't go and get a job. He wouldn't go and start a corner shoe store. He'd say, "How can I go and borrow a couple hundred million dollars and build something?" That's what he knows how to do, because his thermostat is not set for a million dollars of wealth.

He wouldn't be happy. And so each person has a different number and a different way that they see themselves. I remember when I was younger, and when we first got married, I had a friend and his wife, and I knew what they made. I knew what we made, and I think they made about $30,000 more than we did.

And I thought to myself, "If only I made $30,000 more, life would be awesome. We'd be set. We'd be kings. And I would be thrilled beyond belief." A couple years later, that happened, and now we doubled that plus, and the happiness didn't change. It never does. And that's the thing.

So do people just need to be content where they're at, or do they need to create a place to be content? How does that work? So the happiness, by the way, happiness doesn't change when you make more money. There's good research to show, with some exceptions. There's good research to show that once you reach a certain point, and there's debate on the number, but a lot of people think it's about $70,000 a year.

Once you reach an earning level of about $70,000 a year of household income, beyond that, the happiness is not going to change all that much. It is tough. If you need new tires and you're worried about, "I can't go and buy new ones. I got to go to the used store and get them, and is this going to make it," et cetera, there is a major difference between that and $70,000 a year.

But somebody who's making $70,000 a year has enough where beyond that, their marginal happiness is not going to change a lot. The other aspect is that the happiness does change when somebody gets out of a stressful situation. For example, they're behind on their bills, bill collectors calling all the time.

If you can get from that to stability, that will change happiness. But going from $70,000 a year to $100,000 a year is not going to make a big difference in somebody's happiness level. Well, so I was going to say, let's talk a little bit more about happiness, because that's what we all want, right?

We want to be happy, enjoy life, and maybe switch gears a little. I think earlier you talked about helping someone who's younger go from first gear to fifth gear. What exactly did you mean by that, and how does somebody go from first gear to fifth gear with their income?

Something like first gear to fifth gear with their income would involve a mindset change and will involve changes in personal habits. Good friend of mine who works in the trades, and he comes from humble beginnings. When I was talking with this guy, his dream job was to get a good job, a good steady paycheck, and a good steady paycheck at the local big utility company.

That was where he wanted to work for, and that was his dream job. Now, for him, that was, based upon his socioeconomic condition, that was his thinking big. It's great. He's got a steady income now. He's never going to be a millionaire unless he figures out how to live on a very small percentage of that income, because his mindset is built around, "How do I get this steady job where they pay me a guaranteed paycheck?" The way you go from first gear to fifth gear with your income is start to get around different people who have different mindsets.

For me, I've chosen opportunity over so-called security. I don't believe that security exists in a world where other people write my paycheck, and so I've chosen opportunity. For me, that's very important to me, and I have that effect on other people. When other people listen to my show or they talk to me in person, I'm always thinking about opportunity.

I see opportunity everywhere, and so that starts to change how people think. It starts to change people's mindset. Another thing that you can do is, in any context, it doesn't have to be entrepreneurism. It can be within the world of work. If you start to feed people with the idea that they can grow and become a different person and they start to pursue that path, they can rise up through the ranks.

Just yesterday as we were recording this, I was with a friend of mine named Andy Sage, and I interviewed him for my show. Andy Sage started with Lehman Brothers on the ground floor of Lehman Brothers with basically an entry-level job, $50 a week, right out of the Army as a young man.

Twenty-five years later, he was president and CEO of Lehman Brothers. Now that is unique, and one of the things that's unique about the American context, US-American context, is that we are filled with those stories. I can take that story and I can go to somebody who's an employee and I can say, "Look, here's this guy, Andy Sage, who did it, current president of Walmart, CEO of Walmart, started off throwing boxes on a Walmart loading dock when he was in college, and now he's the CEO of Walmart." This is something that's built into the American psyche, and that can help somebody to change.

Now based upon that, then we teach them, "Well, what will you need to do differently? What kind of person would you need to be in order to command a higher wage? What would you need to know?" And we can start the process of education, and that process compounds over time.

So you can move somebody from first gear to second gear and on up by changing their thoughts, changing their behavior, little things at a time. It may have to do with how they dress, it may have to do with how they treat people, it may have to do with their education, they may need to learn more, and it's just a continual process of enhancing their value in the marketplace.

We talk a lot about that in two ways. One is the compound interest curve, and just the fact that it takes a while on that long, flat leg before it turns. And it's constantly taking those little steps, making little changes. You don't have to make a major change in your life, but small, teeny steps over time compound into massive change over time.

And the other thing we talk about is the analogy of baking a cake. If you don't follow the recipe and you do things in the wrong order, and you put the frosting in first and throw some eggs on top and a little flour and bake it, and then take it out and mix it, it's not a very good cake.

I think one of the hardest things, though, people may find is how do you find the recipe for you, and how do you take those baby steps? Do you have anything you could share in how people could figure out for themselves where do I start this whole process, or how do I continue to make it grow?

If somebody's interested in financial success, the best thing to do is to find the person that they know in their own sphere of social contact, the person that they actually know who is more financially successful than they are, and go to that person and ask them, "How did you do it?" Or, "How are you doing it?" So this can apply in earnings, this can apply in wealth, this can apply in business.

If you're in sales and you see somebody else who's selling more than you are, go to them and say, "How are you doing that? What are you doing differently?" And the key is by starting within your social contact, you're going to have people who are in similar circumstances to you, where you're going to be able to relate to them in some way or another.

It's not like me saying, "I'm going to go and talk to Bill Gates. I don't know how to reach Bill Gates, and I don't know how to do what Bill Gates did." There's a major problem, I think, that we have an obsession with people who are at the top of the top.

And sometimes they got there by coming into market conditions or something that we cannot repeat. So you cannot repeat Bill Gates' wealth. You cannot repeat Warren Buffett's investing prowess. Those are unique skills. Now some people you can model them in some ways, but if you're working as an entry-level plumbing apprentice, it's better for you to go to one of the older plumbers who's nearby and say, "Listen, how did you go from being an apprentice to being a master plumber?" And then once you're the master plumber, you'll be able to go to the business owner and say, "Wait a second, how did you go and do this?" And then if you know of a neighbor down the road from you who's involved in the meatpacking business, "How did you get involved in that?" And going and asking those people for advice.

And my experience has been successful people love to tell people about how they got successful. It's a favorite thing that successful people love to do. And I think that's one thing people don't realize, that if you go ask, people will tell you. They will share. They're more than happy to do that.

For some reason, and I don't know why, it seems culturally most of us don't do that. We don't go ask. We don't do that. Why? Fear. I mean, there are all kinds of reasons. And I'll tell you what's even worse from my perspective. Having been the successful... Well, to answer the question before I tell you, the reason people don't do it is either they never even thought of it or they're scared to do it.

They've never had it shown to them. They never had it taught to them. Maybe they were taught, "Don't talk to strangers." Well, that's, I guess, useful as a parenting technique at some stage, but it's also really damaging as a success technique down the road because the most successful people often find themselves talking to a lot of strangers.

But what's even more remarkable on the flip side, my experience, having been a successful person teaching things to others and also interacting, is I've come to believe that people just don't do anything with the advice that you give them. And I actually tell people when I'm giving them advice, "You're not going to do anything with this because people don't do anything with it." It's the most disheartening thing.

When you know something that's great, you've found the pearl of great price, and you want someone to do it and you want someone to do something, and you get tired of saying the same thing over and over to people who come and ask and don't do anything. Yes, go and ask successful people, but if you actually do something with what they say and you come back and tell them, "Hey, I did something with what you said," the doors will be blown open for you and you'll have the keys of the kingdom.

So I recently did that, and we're going to share that on an episode in a couple of weeks. And I'm going to tell you a story of how I went through the final stages of getting this podcast done, and a coach that I met who actually got me through those last couple of stages and how I attended an event.

It was Seth Godin, and tickets for Seth Godin's event are 800 bucks. So people are paying a lot of money to learn from this guy. And there was actually a group that you could communicate on for people who attended the event. There were probably close to 500 of us there.

And one of the people who was a coach said to the rest of the group, "Hey, I'm willing to help coach five of you. Whoever responds, you can have my time and I will help you with whatever you want in life." I don't know how many people responded. I know I did.

I know someone else did, but I don't think he filled all five of his slots. All these people who paid all this money to learn, who were at the top of their game, didn't take that extra step. And I did take that extra step and I learned and I launched this and I went back to him and said, "Hey, I did it." And before I did it, I said, "Hey, will you be on my podcast?" And he said, "Well, let's see what you do first." And I went back and I did it and he goes, "Absolutely." So we're going to have a guest on in a few weeks.

But that right there, that's the type of stuff that people don't do. People offer them the opportunity and they don't take it. And then when they do take it, they don't follow up. And if they do follow up and actually do what they're told to do, they don't always go back to that person and said, "Hey, I did what you told me to do." And they don't realize that for that person, that was just the first hurdle.

You break the first hurdle, I'm going to open up the door wide. And unfortunately, I don't know why that's not taught more, but that's the kind of soft skills that aren't being taught and aren't being learned and aren't being practiced, which is a shame. I'll give a very practical example.

When I was just starting right out of school, my senior year of college, in my junior year, I studied abroad the first semester and I came back and I was very confused and I wound up dropping out of school. And during that time, I took a job working as this entry level, my title was graphic developer, but that was a glorified name for basically make PowerPoint presentations for the company.

And it was very entry level, basic job. I made 30, I don't know, 30 to 35,000, somewhere in the $30,000 range. But while I was there, I was interacting with people and I've always been an interested learner. And so the simple thing that I did was I went to, I just interact and try to do a good job at my job.

First of all, if you're hired to do a job, do your job first. That's the good place to start with success. But I would talk to people and I would ask my bosses, I would ask them, "What book should I read?" And just simply say, "Hey," they could look at their bookshelves or just ask them, "What books should I read?" I remember one of the founders of the company, name was Bob, Bob Post, and he said, "Here are the five books that made a big difference." I went, I bought the books and I read the books and I told him about it.

He was blown away that I had actually read the books. He couldn't believe it. Now, I went on from there and that year, similar interactions with other leaders, the president of the company, the CEOs who were managing, and then one of the executive vice presidents who was in charge of me, similar interaction.

And later that year, they asked me, "Okay, you want to go back to school?" And they wound up giving me extra money, scholarship income to go back to school in exchange for thinking about working with them when I came back after out of college. They paid me extra money that I didn't have to do any extra work for simply because I had taken an interest in learning.

More importantly, when I went on from there, when I got out of college, I went back and I worked at that company for a year and I had good relationship with people and I just would be an interested learner, read the books that were on their shelf, talk about them.

And we're talking very, very minor contact. I was a low level employee. Well, they laid me off a year after I graduated from college, but when I was being laid off, both of the men said, "We'll help you with anything that we can." Well, it was two weeks later, I was having lunch with my boss, one of the guys, and he said he was the one who gave me the idea to go into financial services.

He was the one who helped me with the initial introduction there, still friends with him. The president of the company went on and I was friends with him for a very long time. He helped me with some very valuable connections and interactions. And the other gentlemen still have a warm relationship.

And so it can be as simple as simply observing the books that are on your boss's shelf and reading them and asking him, "Hey, what would you recommend I read?" Very simple, but it resulted in a tremendous amount of personal gain and also financial gain for me. I think you're working on writing a book, right?

Yeah, I have the outline and I can't seem to get the manuscript done, but yes. It takes a long time and a lot of work, doesn't it? And for under 20 bucks, you can probably buy a book and learn hours upon hours upon years of work of someone's genius.

It's probably one of the best investments out there. I have a whole big bookshelf over there. It's overflowing with books. I've got a stack waiting to be read. It's one of the things, unfortunately, people don't do. If you look at the averages, the average person doesn't read and unfortunately they don't learn beyond college.

And the people who take that small little step have so much more success in life, which is just incredible. So continuing on, I think in the past, the mantra has always been, "We work till 65," because that magic number is somehow when we're supposed to retire. And I guess in the US it came out because that's when Social Security started paying out, which of course was when I think back then 80% of the people were already dead.

So I didn't have to pay too much out, so it was a good number. And yet you struggle that whole time and when you finally get to 65 and you're finally ready to enjoy life, your back hurts and you can't walk and your health isn't the greatest and you don't get to enjoy it so much.

You've decided to take a different path. So tell us about how to live life now instead of waiting till some arbitrary number. We're going through some incredible changes in this country and all over the world. And it's going to be, the coming decades are going to be monumental in terms of the social disruption and the impact, tremendous.

And so the only way that I see to get out ahead of that is to be the one who's leading in the change, which is what I've chosen to do and what I'm seeking to have other people to do. And so yes, the fundamental old-fashioned retirement model is broken.

Now the secret is that it really never worked. As you alluded to, Social Security retirement age was set for a time that men at that time had a life expectancy that was shorter than the Social Security age. So it was set under different models and different assumptions. And it definitely doesn't really work going forward in the future.

Not that people can't retire. You can save millions of dollars and be able to retire at 65. It's just simply that for the vast majority of people that won't work because they don't earn enough, they don't save enough. And all of the social programs, Medicare especially, but also Medicaid and Social Security are fundamentally broken.

They'll be changed and people will think they've been fixed, but they're really broken. I think the secret is to get out ahead and build a life that you wouldn't want to retire from. The reason so many people want to retire and are desperate to retire is they don't like their lives.

And retirement for them is something fancy and different that they think they'll like more. If you build a life that you don't want to retire from, then everything changes. And there are a lot of ways to do that. Now we have this misconception, this misunderstanding about work, where somehow we think that work is a bad thing or that work is not something that we want to do.

Well, if work is something that's not suited for you, if it's type of work that's not well suited for your personality, your skills, your abilities, then yes, it's something you're going to want to get away from. But when work is well suited for you and when you're doing something that you care deeply about for reasons that are important to you, then you can build something that you won't want to retire from.

It's very powerful when you start thinking this way because it completely changes your approach to life, where you look for the opportunities, the things that are going to be good fits for you. Now along the way, you also want to make sure that you're very financially productive and that you're a very good saver and that you set aside a lot of capital because ultimately the ultimate freedom is going to come from when you can take a dollar for a salary if you want it, if they take as a token gesture, but at the end of the day, you're not doing what you're doing for a direct salary.

But this has never been more possible in the history of the world. In the past, you lived where you grew up, you did the work that your parents and your community did, and the opportunity was much more limited than it is now. But we live in the best time to be alive in the history of mankind and there is more opportunity all around the world for people to look for ways to serve others and to build businesses around serving others.

That's the fundamental basis of it. So if you start by building a life that you wouldn't want to retire from, it'll dramatically shift your perspective on retirement. So we talk about that in our second episode, basically in the fact that you need to understand what your purpose in life is.

You need to know where you're going and how you're going to get there. And just a quick question of how many people that you've helped with financial advice have a life plan and a purpose that they've got written down and they know where they're going and what they want to do and they come to you and say, "Here's where I'm going.

Here's what I want to do. Can you help me financially get this in place?" Not many. Not many. And that's one of the ... And the ones who have it don't really need me. So I'll tell you a story. When I was first working as a financial advisor, the business is a very outward focused business where you got to figure out how do I go and get clients?

You got an empty office and no one's sitting there wanting to buy from you, so how do you go get a client? So you spend a lot of time going out and marketing towards other people. And that's a very painful process because most people don't want to talk about their money.

One day I go to this networking event in town and it's a bunch of old Palm Beach socialite rich people who come together and they host all kinds of Congress people and whatnot. I decided it would be fun to go to this luncheon meeting. And I sit down and guy next to me says, "What do you do?" And I tell him I'm a financial advisor.

He says, "Oh, wow." He says, "Awesome." He said, "I'd love to have you take a look at my stuff sometime." You could have knocked me off my chair with a feather. No one had ever said to me, "Wow, you're a financial advisor. Man, I would love to have you take a look at my stuff." And no one had ever said it to me.

And I said, "Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to." And like, "Here, I got my calendar right here. Why don't you come into my office and let's sit down and do it." So the next week he comes into my office and he takes a piece of paper and he slides it across the table to me and he says, "Okay, so I got this much money here.

I own this financial product here. I live here. Here's my assets. Here's what I'm living on. Here's how much money I spend. Here are my income sources, et cetera." He's got everything laid out on a simple one page piece of paper. And he says, "You see any problems? You see any ways to improve that?" So I start going through my mental checklist and I think about his insurance coverage and I look at his investments and I think about his income and I gave him one little suggestion that we talked about for a minute and I basically like, "You're covered.

Everything that ... You're good to go." Now here's why that's a big deal. As a financial advisor, I'm really good at poking holes in people's plans. That's what we do professionally. It's very rare for you to put a financial plan in front of me that I can't find some way to improve it.

And yet here was somebody that I couldn't do that with. And this was the one person who had said, "Hey, I'd love it if you take a look at my stuff." I've never forgotten that lesson. It made a big, big impact on me. That's impressive. So it's constantly taking whatever your plan, it doesn't even have to be financial.

Whatever you want to do and constantly showing it to people and saying, "How can you help me improve this?" And when you do that enough times, you eventually are going to have a plan that's bulletproof, that's going to work, and then you go implement it. You said something, and I've heard it many times, and I'd like to get your opinion on it.

Why don't people want to talk about money? I mean, we go to school, kindergarten to 12th grade, so that we can go to college, so that we can get a job, so we can make money, but nobody wants to talk about money. Why? So the big reason is most people don't have any.

And when people don't have any, they don't want to talk about money unless they're complaining about money. They don't want to talk about money in a positive sense because they don't have any and they're embarrassed about it. They don't want to tell people how much money they have or they don't have.

So most people don't have any money, and so they don't want to talk about what they're embarrassed about. For the people who do have money, the people who do have money have to be very careful about who they talk about money with. So people who have money don't want to talk about money with people who don't have money because they're concerned about two things.

One, the people who don't have money will judge them for having money in a negative social light or think less of them, or those people will come and just try to get money and ask for money, which is very difficult to know how to say no to friends. The only people who like to talk about money are the ones who have money and they're talking to someone else who has money.

Then it's really fun and they love to do it. That was a little bit too circuitous, wasn't it? No, but I mean, even if you live in a middle class neighborhood, these people, they have money. Now, they may not have a couple million dollars, but they've got some money and yet they still don't want to talk about how to better use their money.

Well, there's also a social heritage in the US American culture. It's generally considered impolite to talk about money. It's impolite to talk about politics. It's impolite to talk about religion. Those are three of the big topics that are generally off the table. I think one of them just got put on the table after this election.

It seems like a lot of people are talking about politics right now. So maybe next they'll talk about money. Well, maybe so. And I think that that is changing and that does change. I don't know the full answer for any people. I just have learned when I was a financial advisor.

So doing the work that I did is very strange because I would basically walk in. I worked based upon what's called in the business called referred lead prospecting, which means that if I were sitting down with you, I would work with you and then I would say, "Hey, Rocky, who are some people that you think highly of that you think might enjoy meeting me?" And you would say, "Well, my buddy Tom at work and Joe down the road and Susie, my neighbor.

She's really good. And I don't know if they need anything, but here's their number. And yes, you have my permission to call them." So I'd call them up and walk into Tom's office and sit down and give about a three minute interruption introduction. And then basically we're talking about money.

And what I learned, that's a very unusual skill to develop where 20 minutes after meeting somebody I'm asking him how much money they have and how much money they make. Like it takes a little while and you develop some decent bedside manner. But in the beginning I was very, when people didn't tell me that when people didn't answer my questions, I generally thought it was my fault.

But I learned with skill and with experience that generally if somebody didn't want to tell me how much money they made or how much money they had, it was usually because they didn't make much or they didn't have much. And it sounds terrible. I know I'm being a little bit over generalizing, but that was my experience.

I always could tell the difference. If I were speaking with somebody who was wealthy, who'd be like, "Wait a second. Hold on a second. Let me ask you a few questions." And in the conversation I could get a sense of where things were. But if somebody just shut down and didn't want to talk about money, I came to realize it was because they were embarrassed about their financial condition.

They didn't want to talk about money. That's a shame. Which is because those were the people that I could help the most, right? I never solved that answer. I don't know how to fix the problem. Well, we'll keep trying. One last thing I'd like to explore and then we'll wrap up.

I know you're very big about understanding your worldview, living your worldview. I think you've even said you have your financial plans, life plans. They're in a notebook. They're up on a shelf. And so when you come to a decision point, you can open up your book and say, "This is the decision.

This is where it fits in with my worldview, life plan, financial plan, and it makes it a lot easier to just take that next step." I think you're aware in having that. Most people don't seem to have that mapped out so well. If people wanted to learn more about or explore how to put their life in such a simple process that if I have a question about what to do, I can go look at my life manual and it makes it much, much easier to make that decision.

What advice would you give people for how to start building that or what resources to learn from to take that next step? It may be a bigger question than I think you're asking. When you use the word worldview, I use that term for a comprehensive understanding of life which is driven first and foremost by religious doctrine, how somebody approaches their life.

If you see, for example, that ... Let's use two worldviews. Let's talk about humanism and I'm a Christian, so I'm not a humanist. So the primary essence and worldview of humanism would say that personal happiness is the greatest gain in life. So therefore, under a worldview of humanism, the filter is very simple.

You approach a decision and you say, "Well, what's the greatest happiness?" Now if you don't approach that as a ... If that's not your fundamental operating worldview, then you have to look at it differently and you have to say, "What are my personal values and how do they actually get ranked?" If somebody believes that service is the highest good, then they'll approach things and they'll say, "Well, how does this impact my ability to serve or not to serve?" Most people are not philosophically self-aware.

Most people have not tested their own understanding of the world in a comprehensive way and tested it to see, "Does my worldview have strength?" Most of us simply operate based upon a program that we've adopted unconsciously from society around us based upon the values and actions of people around us.

So yes, that makes a huge difference. Now of course, you can home in a little bit more. And so a simple example, worldview can be very big in terms of happiness or service or it can be very simple. As a Christian, the Bible teaches that if a man doesn't take care of his own family, then he's worse than an unbeliever.

And so that brings to someone like me, a disciple of Jesus, it brings a place where you simply have to say, "Well, I have to take care of my family." And so since I know that is one of the highest priorities, I can look at any decision and say, "Is this gonna allow me to take care of my family or not to allow me to take care of my family?" I don't have to be a Christian to care for family.

That's silly. That's a common universal thing, but it will dramatically affect the type of career that I would take. A simple example, I've always wanted to be a truck driver. That to me would be a perfect job. I'm not gonna be a truck driver 'cause it would destroy my family.

I wouldn't go in the military, it would destroy my family among other things. I'm not gonna go and take a sales job where I'm on the road six days a week and get home on Saturday morning or Friday afternoon and leave on Sunday afternoon on an airplane. Destroy my family and destroy my life.

So I can wipe away all of these jobs pretty quickly based upon that worldview. Now bringing it down further to a financial plan, a simple thing like identifying, "Am I somebody who is seeking security or am I somebody who's seeking opportunity?" So for me, I'm seeking opportunity, not security.

So therefore when I approach something, I'm gonna ask myself, "Is this something that's trying to... Am I choosing this because it's secure or am I choosing this because it has opportunity?" I'll walk away from something that's secure as long as it has opportunity. Now I won't do that if it's going to cause me to not be able to fulfill my obligations to care and provide for my family.

I'll take a job that has security if that's the way that I can provide for my family to make sure that they're well taken care of and I'll walk away from opportunity because caring for my family is a higher value. But if I can care for my family in a world of opportunity, I'll choose that.

So from the big to the little, the way that we approach life, if we can become philosophically self-aware and understand why we believe what we believe, then we can start to look and say, "Here's how I approach things." I don't think that's as simple as having a manual on the shelf.

I mean, I have goals, I have plans, things like that. I think it's more of a thought process. And I'll give you two examples. Years ago, I read about the impact and the importance of business plans. I forget the source, so I can't cite it. But they were saying that the much higher percentage of businesses who have business plans succeed versus businesses who don't start with business plans.

And so they were researching this topic and they asked the business owners, "How many times in the last year of your startup have you gone and looked at the business plan?" And the business owner said, "We haven't actually looked at that since we made it." And what they found was that the business owners would make the business plan, but then they just toss it in a drawer and they'd never go back and look at it.

But yet the people who had gone through the mental exercise of creating the business plan were much more successful than those who hadn't, even if they didn't look at the plan every day because they were aware of why the business existed and what their goals were for it. Same thing with the military.

There's a saying, "No battle plan survives contact with the enemy." So why does the military still, when a military strategist or tactician is sitting down and saying, "What's our battle plan?" They're sitting down and making seven possible battle plans, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, all the way down.

Well, they know that it's not going to survive the contact with the situation, but it's the diligent process of thinking and considering if this, then that, if this, then that. And that's what you and I as individuals can apply to our lives. So from the big to the little, what's the ultimate meaning of life?

Question that men have struggled with for a long time, down to what do I do tomorrow? What I do tomorrow is going to be driven by my worldview and by my goals. And so becoming as self-aware as possible will go a long way towards having that answer. And that's a perfect answer.

I think that's exactly what I was looking for, is people need to know where they're going, what they want, and then it just becomes so much easier to achieve it because you've actually thought through and you don't end up at 50 years old going, "How did I get here?

And this isn't what I dreamed of." And I think for too many people, that's what happens. But if you sit down and you think it through, and that takes time, you figure out what you want and what you need, and then you start plotting that out. Everyone has the opportunity to do great things and live the life that they choose.

And that's kind of what this journey here is on this podcast, is helping people become enlightenment and taking those steps forward. So last question, is there something else that I should have asked you that you'd like to share? Is there just something that you would like to share as we wrap up that we haven't chatted about?

Probably my closing thoughts would simply be this. Human beings are the most remarkable creatures because there's no other creature that can create out of nothing. So the Bible teaches that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And there's an important doctrine that says that God creates ex nihilo, which means out of nothing, from nothing to something, which is remarkable in and of itself.

Now human beings are made in the image of God. One of the most important aspects of that to me is that we are creators. We are unique among all of the creatures. There is no animal who can visualize something abstract in their head and then go out and make it.

Animals are driven by instinct. Animals are driven by their genetic code. Animals are driven to do what all of their forefathers have done before them. Now there may be minor variations over time, but pretty much animals do what their parents did. But humans are not that way. Humans can see something that someone else is doing and can do it differently.

And that's why in the history of mankind, you have a son or a daughter who comes from a drunk parent and says, "I'm not going to do that. I'm going to choose differently." You have people who come and they look at the examples of other people that are negative and they say, "I'm not going that way." And they look at the examples of people who are positive and say, "I'm going that way." And there is nothing, nothing that requires that a human being can't do that.

So yes, we may have certain predispositions. I may be genetically different from you. I may be very apt to be like my parents, but at any point in time, I have the ability to choose. And so when you come to finance, when you come to lifestyle, when you come to life design, it's important to recognize that we are not the victims of our circumstances.

We can choose no matter the case. Tremendous book. Dr. Frankel wrote a book, "Man's Search for Meaning," and he talked about the experience of he was a tremendously renowned doctor, a psychologist, and then he was put in a concentration camp, a Jewish concentration camp as a prisoner during World War II.

And he was observing the fellow prisoners and studying them psychologically. And his conclusions were just amazing. Now I can't summarize the whole book, but the meaning that I took away from it is that we have the ability to choose no matter our circumstances, and we have the ability to create, to create from nothing in the sense that not that we can start without matter.

We've got to use God's matter to build our projects. We can't create ex nihilo, but we can look and see something that hasn't been done. Artists in their mind, they see something that haven't been done. Some people build art with a paintbrush. Some people build art with business, and for them it's their art.

And some people just simply build art or create things differently in their life. It's the most powerful ability that we as humans have. And it's important not to disregard that ability. It's important to pay attention and to take full advantage of it while we're here on the earth. I think that's an excellent way to close.

Life is not what happens to you, but how you choose to react to it and what you choose to do going forward. And that's a perfect way to take that next step on the journey. So if people would like to listen to you more, learn more about what you do, where's the best place for them to find you?

You can find me at radicalpersonalfinance.com, or if you're interested in listening to my show, I do a show five days a week. Tagline of Radical Personal Finance is how to live a rich life now while building a plan for financial freedom in 10 years or less. And so there's a free daily podcast in any podcast application that you currently use to listen to Richer Soul, or there's also a free Radical Personal Finance in the app store on every phone and device.

Well, thank you. And thank you for joining us today. It's a pleasure. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. There are many pearls here about how to live life differently with an abundance mindset. Noah planned a way to live a life he is never going to have to retire from because it's so enjoyable for him.

I leave you with this one question. Do you dread going to work on Monday? Then how about doing something about it and creating a life where you enjoy the work you do? What a radically different idea. Don't just dream about paradise. Live it with Fiji Airways. Escape the ordinary with Fiji Airways Global Beat the Rush Sale.

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