(upbeat music) - You're listening to Let's Talk Jobs, where we give you practical insights into jobs and careers. Today, Jesse, Troy and I sit down and talk about this tough economy and its impact on employment and small businesses who are struggling to survive because customers' budgets are now more guarded than ever.

We talk about the lessons we've learned and some key takeaways. All right, let's get started. - My dad once said to me, "Don't ever think you're unreplaceable." And it seemed like a cold thing to say because he said that to me during a time where I was at the company, I was at a peak, and thinking I'm so valuable.

And I think it was you who said earlier, Troy, that there is a business side of things and some things you have control over, some things you don't. And some of those factors are dictated by macroeconomic economics, right? Which might impact your employment. And it's a very cold thing to say, but it helped me separate work life from personal life.

And this is not to say that you're unloyal to a company, but it's realizing that end of the day, you are still a number. And so some of these decisions around employment, especially in this current economic state, it's not personal. And it's hard being the recipient of that. And I think maybe this is a good time to maybe shift to dealing with unemployment, right?

'Cause I've gone through it twice. There are two periods of my time where I was doing that. And right now, a lot of people are doing it, dealing with it, as you mentioned, Jesse, from the pandemic. My first time was after the agency. And the question is, what do you do during your time of employment?

And the complexity multiplies. Like if you have kids, if you have mortgage, or if you're in need of health insurance for yourself, or if you're covering aging parents, right? So like the complexity and a need for income just builds and builds and builds. And that stress and anxiety, it impacts you.

When my first instance of unemployment after the agency, before Logitech, my mindset was, I'm gonna hit the ground running. I'm gonna hit as many jobs as I possibly can. And that would be similar to what I would have experienced today, right? Where it's like, I'm gonna go through all of the, I'm gonna file unemployment.

You guys have to do that. It doesn't matter how senior your job is. The amount you get is based on a percentage of your last paycheck. And so if you're a VP, or if you're an individual contributor, like file for unemployment. Now you may get rejected. In some cases it's happened, but if you don't apply, then you'll never get it, right?

So I played for unemployment. I had a mortgage at the time. So I did was I went through the California state, the job listings held by the government. And every day I was doing job searches, right? And in order to maintain your unemployment status, you have to provide a log of the proves that you've been job searching, right?

And so whether it's submitting through your site or whatnot, you always had to provide a record of that. And remember at that time, I had so many random odd jobs. And it was important because it made me realize that no job is ever beneath me. Doesn't matter if I am doing VP level work, if I'm doing barista work, nothing is invaluable if you know what you wanna get out of the experience.

And I think that was a first time work. Again, coming out of the agency experience, I'm struggling with my sense of identity. So I was retrying to build myself. And so I made it a goal to take every opportunity and all of them were temporary jobs. And in one case it was like, I'm gonna learn how to deal with rejection.

So one of those temp jobs was all around cold calling. I had a job around, I type fast, but sometimes at that point, maybe accuracy, maybe like 80%, let's say. And I'm much higher now. But so my goal for that was I had data entry job. So I was like, my goal is to bang out however it works per minute and I'll have like 95% accuracy 'cause it's a measurable way to show improvement.

I did all these oddball jobs. I took a lot of volunteer work from nonprofits, from my local church, wherever it is. And the whole point of that was the next time I go into an interview, the best way for me to help them understand who I am and who they're trying to hire is to help them understand my mindset through this whole thing.

So it's a story of resilience. It's about being scrappy. It's around finding purpose in any work and proving through examples that I can make meaningful gain on either skillset building or whatever it is. And that actually helped me land the contract job at Logitech because I was able to demonstrate scrappiness.

And at that time, the web team, they're about to go through a site redesign. And so I was able to kind of pull that together. The most recent unemployment I had was a little different 'cause I was so burnt out from the previous experience that I just, I gave myself a month to just recharge and relax, man, honestly.

I knew that the economy was tough and I was taking a huge risk by giving myself time to breathe. But in this instance, I knew that if I couldn't recharge in all the interviews I do, they would not get the best version of me. And thankfully in this scenario, my wife and I both work.

Now, single-based income out of California, it would only get us so far. And so how we processed that was we looked at our finances between mortgage, any debts that we owed, unemployment, and then her income. And we calculated how much runway we would have. And of course we ate very conservatively.

So that's how I was able to calculate I have a month maximum. After that, I really needed to get myself together. So that's how I got myself through this current pandemic unemployment. Leveraging connections was really, really important. And actually landing my job at Fortinet, it was fortuitous because my hiring manager reached out to me prior to joining A10, which is my previous job.

So two jobs ago, he reached out to me and it just didn't line up. And so I had sent out, actually this whole podcast actually wouldn't have happened if I wasn't unemployed. I'm actually talking about like silver linings. 'Cause at that time I put out a message on LinkedIn.

Hey, look, I'm unemployed, but I'm just trying to help people. So let's have a conversation if you need a sounding board. So that message resonated with a lot of hiring managers. And so I put myself out there. And one of those conversations just happened to be with my current hiring manager.

And that kind of turned things around. How about you guys? Like, what are, you know, obviously you guys are running your own businesses. And so there's periods of like hyper growth and periods of slowdown and you are your own manager. Hopefully you're a good manager to yourself. How are you dealing with all of that, especially with today's climate?

- I mean, there's definitely ebbs and flows. It's funny, as my own manager, I'm pretty bad about finding time for business development, but I've been pretty fortunate that my network just kind of, when things slow, things tend to come back. But the one thing I would say, like, I wish I had, going back earlier in my career, I had two periods of unemployment.

One was self-induced. I walked out of a PR agency during the original .com bust, which was the worst time to walk out because things were getting really hard for me. And I was so immature at that point. I just couldn't, I couldn't deal with it. And the second was that period I mentioned where I already had sort of wheels in motion.

But that first period, I wasted a lot of time basically procrastinating on doing what I should have been doing every day. Should have been looking for job opportunities or resumes. But the one thing I wish, if I could go back now, I would say schedule two to three things per day that push you toward finding the next job, but equally as important, schedule something, schedule a period of time to do something that is something you're passionate about, to sort of give yourself a break, but also clear your head a little bit.

Like if this were to happen to me today, that thing would be disc golf. I'm really into disc golf right now. And so when my business is slow today, if I have a day where I don't have a full slate of jobs to do, then I will go out to the disc golf and I'll throw some discs.

So I also gave advice recently to a family member who's trying to make the transitions. He was kind of unsure of where to start. And I think the advice was just find one thing per day to do while you're in your current job to find the next thing, which is reach out to somebody in your network that you haven't connected with for a long time, or find five jobs online through a search that you want to apply for, but then you can apply for them a different day, but just identify opportunities.

Just do one thing per day. And I think during unemployment, if you can mix those two things, finding time for yourself, do something that moves you forward. I think you're going to feel good about what you did at the end of the day. - Yeah, I would agree. I think it's so important to have that balance, right?

To have those things outside of work that fulfill us and fill the well back up. And I've had some periods of unemployment. Ironically, one was I was laid off on my 30th birthday. It was August 11th, 2001. And 30 days later, there's obviously the big terrorist attack. And I lived in LA at the time, and there was all this hysteria around the mail.

I don't know if you remember the anthrax scare and all this stuff. And so I had been working at the LA Times for a number of years, and I got laid off, like I said, in August, 2001. And it was a while before I found a freelance job. And I had been freelancing as a copywriter for an agency doing Hollywood, doing movie taglines.

But I really didn't, and it was a great book, but I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't really even know what agencies did. I just kind of fell into this role 'cause I had picked up a job editing a literary journal that happened to be produced by this partner in an agency.

And I had talked my way, argued my way out of that job because they accepted a couple awards in my name and didn't tell me about it. And I got all huffy, and then I never worked for them again. And so I didn't have that job. I lost my full-time job.

I didn't really a freelancer at the time, but I ended up picking up this work for a company that was another import/export company. They had me writing campaigns for gift baskets and a pill that would make you slimmer and tanner at the same time. And it was sort of a mess.

This was, but I got an employment for a period of time just like you described, Tim, is you just have to go out, you have to report all the jobs you've looked for. And then if you had any work, you have to report the hours that you have. And it's sort of related to what they give you.

And it wasn't a lot of money. And then we moved, my wife and I moved, at the time we had yet to be married, we moved to Santa Cruz where she started attending school. And it was rough. I think it was just a matter of taking, like you said, any job.

I took a job when we moved to Santa Cruz selling coffee. And this was at the dot-com bust happened right about that time. And the, so I was selling condiments like coffee, not condiments, but coffee, snacks, and things like that in Silicon Valley to these office, you know, to offices, to folks that previously had been good customers and maybe they had shrunk.

So it was really hard. I did that for a few years. And then I got laid off actually from Logitech on my 40th birthday, about 10 years later in 2011. And I had, I don't know if you remember, but they knew CMO was brought in and they changed the whole structure.

And I had been a writer and they wanted to convert everybody to brand managers. And I had recommended a colleague, a friend, and then he ended up getting a writing job and being converted into the brand manager. And I was one of the people that got laid off. And fortunately there was someone that was working there at the time, Alex Lopez, and he ended up sending a bunch of work my way right after I got laid off and that got us through.

You know, at that point I had a young child and we didn't yet have a mortgage, but, you know, we had significant bills. And so it was a little bit of leaning on my network to get us through. And eventually I got a project job with an agency. And then at some point I got another job.

And then at one point, a few months later, I had four or five job offers at the same time. And I ended up picking the one that landed me at the Google. First time working for an agency embedded at the Googleplex. And then what I learned was unemployment is really scary.

And when it first happens, you just, I just want to go to the bar. I mean, at the time, that's what I wanted to do. And, you know, I wanted to run away from it, from the pain, from the feeling like I wasn't, I wasn't a value that it didn't matter all the things I had accomplished.

I really didn't make the cut. And so I took it very personally, even though we know business is in most cases not personal. I do think there's a sort of, you know, exceptions to that is when you run your own business, even though it's still business, it's, if you have a business, I think, and this is not necessarily the case for me now, but, and I, and you have employees, it becomes a little more personal, especially the times I had a couple of boutique agencies, I was working all the time and it became such a big part of who I was and how I spent my time that, you know, it sort of bleed into that, you know, personal thing.

And I think there's something actually, and you see this on LinkedIn, where people sort of bleed their, the people call it personal brand, which I sort of despise this term, but it kind of bleeds your career into your, right? You hate that. That's what the thumbs up is for, right, Troy?

And it's like, it's your personhood, but it's also your brand. And they call it a personal brand and like how you present yourself on LinkedIn is who you are. And I think it's a bunch of bullshit, but there is, I think it's this, especially when you're, you know, a lot of cases when you're owning your own business and maybe you've done so for a long time, or it's, you know, I haven't been in this situation, but it's a family business.

I think it becomes a little more personal, but let's just, you know, for most of the business I've been in, corporate or agency, or even freelance, you know, you're right. A layoff is not personal in most cases and almost every, you know, it's something structural has happened with the business or the business climate or the market or the economy or whatever.

And you just happen to be a number on a spreadsheet that, you know, goes in one column and that happens. So in terms of, once I moved into a freelance capacity and I was consulting with, you know, more than one client at the same time, I think my experience, like you've described, Troy, is it happens in flows.

And I've had some clients for a number of years and others that have come and gone, and I've never been completely out of work and I've often had a little too much. And it's been more a balance between what can I successfully take on and still deliver. But, you know, unemployment could happen.

And Tim, I think I agree with you too. You become, especially if you have bills, you just, there's an urgent need to pick up whatever you can. And so like my experience, I picked up a job selling coffee and candy bars to businesses and I had never done that before, but that's the job I took just to get through.

- Yeah, I think for anyone, first of all, thank you for sharing that, you guys. Like, I totally agree with all of that. And for anyone who's navigating unemployment right now, there's five things I would recommend you guys do. First of all, make sure you're on sites like LinkedIn or Indeed or Glassdoor, right?

These are job, they have job boards, they're built for recruiters to find you. So make sure you're there. Also know then that the way people find you is through keywords. So the whole discipline of search engine optimization, it applies here. Know what keywords recruiters are looking for and make sure you mention something like that in your LinkedIn profile, for example.

What you don't wanna do is regurgitate roles and responsibilities as posted in, just a thumbs up again, as shown up in a job description and copy and paste that. That's not what we're looking for. But you should rewrite your resume in a way that you show results and your impact and in your description of those impact, make sure those keywords are in there, right?

'Cause that way your profile is discoverable by people. The next one I would recommend is work your network. And I don't mean like to be like annoying, but when you're looking for jobs, the best way to get in is through job referrals, right? So start looking at brands that you wanna work for or look for people that you know can have a strong referral for you, look where they're working and start looking at those job boards.

'Cause that's the best way to kind of get you in. For your LinkedIn specifically, do a post about specifically what you're looking for. You know, you'll see a lot of people these days, they do open to work and hey guys, I'm looking for work, is someone gonna help me?

Maybe here's a job or two. Do more than that. Say these are the examples of kind of jobs I'm looking for, or maybe these are my skill sets. 'Cause remember, a lot of the people who are responding to these, they're not necessarily people directly in your network. Anytime someone does a thumbs up on your post or does a comment on it, that shows up in their feed as well, right?

So now your exposure to the broader audience to second and third degree connections, that's how it happens. So make sure you're very articulate about what you're looking for. The next one is get in contact with headhunter agencies. And in all of my unemployments, I like when you have a job, their office often reaching out to you, right?

Whether you're a manager and they're trying to offer their services to you, or they're trying to see if you're available. Now that you're available, make sure they know you're aware. And so what they need is a concise description of what you can do. So a cover letter is often helpful and your resume, but get yourself in their system.

And so you're an employable resource for them. And the last one is gonna sound a little silly. It's around controlling your budget. I see a lot of, right now, if you had the fortune of being laid off with severance, your first reaction could be like, hey, I'm gonna take the month off, like I mentioned earlier, right?

I'm gonna take this month off, it's gonna be for me. I'm gonna travel or whatnot. This economy is tough. So every dollar you sink into the luxury of a vacation, for example, just know that that could potentially shorten your duration of what you can be unemployed for finances. So just budget accordingly.

I can't eat oatmeal to this day because the first time I was unemployed, I'd made a decision to, I think my daily budget allowance for food was five to $10. Another thumbs up. Thank you, Zoom. And what that meant was I wasn't, all I could do was sugar and salt.

I couldn't put toppings, I couldn't afford fruit, but you guys, like spending like $15 a week on food, you stretch your fences really far. That's also why I can't eat anymore. Also, I'd save money aside for a wedding ring and I promised myself I wouldn't dip into that. And so I made extreme cuts in other areas of my life.

I did that. So those are the top things I would recommend. Now, right now, AI is already upon us. And so if you, you mentioned, Troy, that like take this time every day to do something meaningful. If you're gonna do something meaningful, learn about AI. Could be the tools, understand the landscape, maybe find a way for it to help productivity.

OpenAI, they just announced like ChatGPT 4.0. It looks fantastic, you guys. As a matter of fact, I can see now certain job categories getting displaced as well due to their ability to visually identify, read, and just provide meaningful insights that a translator, for example, would be able to do.

And so that's, and Google at I/O this week, they also announced a lot of changes as well. So just be familiar with that because as you're going into these interviews, being able to tell your story and having them understand who you are as an individual is important, but also knowing that you're aware of the top trends just allows you to be more future-proof in terms of your marketability.

So make sure you save some time to do that while you're decompressing during this time of unemployment. - I would add to that, that if there are particular topics that are adjacent to the kind of work you wanna do that you're passionate about, write about those topics as well.

And not just, Jesse, by the way, is a master at this. If you wanna look at his LinkedIn profile, he's really good at taking a topic that relates to his work and my work as well and posting about it. But yeah, write about those topics on LinkedIn 'cause it's a great way to get noticed when you showcase your expertise and passion for a particular product or a particular topic.

- Yeah, there was a designer who I was kind of mentoring during this time of unemployment, and his specialty was a very specific illustration style. And what I told him was like, you know what, while you're looking for jobs, start showcasing your work. And not just showcasing the work, but the in-progress work.

I think that's more fascinating, right? So if you look at just end product, then it's very subjective on whether you like it or not. But how you deconstruct or approach a design problem to arrive at your solution and kind of talk about the tools you're using or methodologies or inspiration, that gives someone who doesn't know anything about you context of how you operate and work, right?

And then more, and again, this takes effort and time. And in this context, I'm thinking specifically about LinkedIn, but you're totally right, Troy, like putting yourself out there, having people understand who you are, knowing your point of view, and then being proactive on other people's posts and feeds, all that does is increase your visibility to people who are not number one direct connections of yours.

And that just helps improve your reach. - And I also add in terms of, thanks Troy for the nod to, at least one person's reading my posts. And there it is, the fireworks. Why do you, do I get those too? No, do it, it's not doing it. Okay, I was gonna say the other thing, the other interesting thing about, or Avenue and LinkedIn that is available is, there's all these people that are experts and many of them are very willing to talk to you about how they get there.

And so one of the things that I've done is not only be more active in terms of posting stuff, but, and some of that's been very gratifying. And sometimes folks reach out with very, for me, it's very inspirational 'cause they've been touched by things I've shared. But people are often very generous about sharing their expertise.

And just, if you're able to connect with someone that has some more experience or talent or whatever, and you wanna learn, I think some folks are very eager to share. And it's this social media platform, even though it's a professional network. And I think there's a, it's probably underutilized feature of the site is that if you're connected with somebody, just message them and say, "Hey, I saw you posted about this.

"It was amazing. "I'd love to ask you a few questions "or take you to a cup of virtual coffee or whatever." I think that's very helpful. - I wanna add something to that too. I feel like I see an alarming number of new professional coaches that are out there that charge people.

I just wanna say that there's a lot of people that would be happy to help you and offer advice that don't charge. I think all three, my assumption is all three of us would sort of fall into that camp. Yeah, so there's a lot of advice out there that you don't wanna spend money for.

And frankly, I bet a lot of the free advice would be better than a lot of the paid advice. - I totally agree. I think the hardest part about this for a lot of people is embracing your own vulnerability and know that that could be the key to unlocking everything for you.

The less guarded you become allows you to be more true in terms of articulating what it is that you really, really need. And so when you put yourself out there saying, "Hey, look, I'm looking for advisement "on this very specific thing or this career path. "I'm looking for a mentor who can help me "solve a very specific thing." The more you're able to articulate that, the more you'll be able to find the right feedback as opposed to getting someone who's very generic, right?

And you might, again, to your point, you might find out that your whole network is very empathetic towards your situation and that might lead itself to connections to other people as well. And so definitely don't underestimate the power of LinkedIn. - Hey guys, thanks again for watching and listening.

Next week, we'll be talking about dealing with the feeling of being in over your head. So make sure you hit like, subscribe and hit the notification bell so you don't miss the episode.