Effective communication might be the most underrated way to get ahead in work and in life. Today we're going to explore the power of writing well with one of the smartest people I know on the topic. And whether you're sending a cold email, pitching a project, or just trying to get your family to pick the right vacation spot, we're going to cover how better writing can make all the difference.

And as my guest Neville Medora puts it, Imagine the conversion rate of every interaction you have in life goes up by 50%. Would that help? Probably. So that is one of the main reasons I think people should learn copywriting. We're going to get really tactical, digging into brevity, clarity, different frameworks, and real-world examples you can use right now to make your communication more effective.

I'm Chris Hutchins, and if you enjoy this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a comment or review. And if you want to keep upgrading your life, money, and travel, click follow or subscribe. Why do you think effective writing is such an important skill to learn? Because it applies to every single thing you do.

You send out a little email, you send a text, you're usually looking for some sort of response or action. And if you can get more of that response or more of that action, especially if you're doing it at scale, then it's better. If you're sending out 100 cold emails and one person responds, what if you just rewrite it a little bit or put some stuff in bullet points and now 10 people respond?

You've just amplified your effectiveness 10x from just a very small amount of work. So that's why. It's like copywriting is one of the lowest effort but highest result type of things you can do because it requires pretty much no technical skill whatsoever and can improve the results right away.

And is this specific to people who work in the internet or is this just as effective for a doctor or a priest or a teacher? It works for a priest, it works for a teacher, but it really works for people on the internet because we're dealing with scale, right?

Whenever you send your newsletter out, it's going to what? 50, 100,000 people more, right? So if you add another 100,000 people, you could still do the exact same amount of work but reach twice as many people, that's scale. So when we're talking about scalable, we were working with like a farming business and they basically sell these like large fertilizer contracts, large equipment rental contracts.

So minimum $100,000 up to like $3 million. And they had this cold email that was like three pages long and we changed it to literally like a one line email and it increased the response rate roughly 3x. So if you can imagine that minimum $100,000 to $3 million contracts, what that resulted in, it's a lot.

I was just talking with a family member who's graduating soon and I was thinking back to college applications or if you're applying for private school or you're trying to get a job, you have to write in all of these circumstances. So I imagine, you know, copywriting, that could apply to even one-off projects like that where it feels really high stakes for you.

I want this job, I want to write a really nice message. Are there skills there that fall in this kind of bucket of learning? Oh yeah. We have people from the copywriting course that are just like, I know this is not what you teach, but I got dates from this.

And the reason is, I think what most people try to write about is themselves. And then what you realize is most people don't care about you all that much. They care about themselves. So they actually want to know about you so long as it pertains to them. So I think a lot of people, even on dating apps and stuff are like, here's about me, here's about me, here's about me.

It's just like, what about the other person? Like, how does it relate to them? What about something that's engaging to them? Everyone's favorite subject is themselves. So even just positioning this instead of like, here's the thing I did. It's just like, here's the thing you can do. I did it.

You could steal it. That kind of just small shift goes a really, really long way and completely changes the framework of how you write something. Like, it's not about you. Can it be about them in some way? Okay. So that seems like a big mistake. People write too much about themselves.

What are some other big mistakes you see when people come to you, what they're doing in writing? Too long. Too long. Wait, there's like the shortification of everything, right? It used to be we watched movies. Then we watched TV shows that are 30 minutes. And now we watch YouTube videos that are 10 minutes.

And now we watch YouTube shorts that are 30 seconds long, right? So there's a shortification. And contrary to what most people say, they're like, we don't have the attention span. It's like, if you took TikTok to someone in the 1800s, they would still watch it, right? It's not the human attention span that got shorter.

It's just that we are better at telling stories quicker. I don't need 400 pages to explain to you how to cook an egg. I could probably do it in 20 seconds with a YouTube short. Similarly, I think some people take way too long to get to the damn point.

Even like an Instagram post, it's like a picture and like a paragraph of text is about as much as you need to explain a lot of different concepts. I use what I call like a caveman voice. That's my little hack. We're like in my head, I'm like this dumb caveman.

I barely pay attention to what I'm reading, which is how most people are reading your stuff. I try to think with that person just scrolling by, find this interesting or not. And if it's too long, if it looks like a big block of text, that's kind of boring. And even I'm having trouble staying awake and reading it, that I just absolutely ax it.

Just ruthless. So the shortification of everything. Can you say all of this stuff in one page or even one paragraph rather than 10? That's so much better. It's funny because I, one of my, my, my lowest grades in all of university was a business plan that I had in this communications class.

And it was like, you need 25 pages. And I was like, you know what? I don't think I need 25 pages. And the answer was like, you got the point across, but you didn't make 25 pages. In the real world, it seems like very rarely do you have to have things at length, like the shorter it can be, but are there times where more information is better?

Yeah. When you're trying to obfuscate the truth, like if you're a lawyer, you want to write the longest agreement possible. That's why when you sign anything on Apple or Facebook or any sort of web service, it's 40 pages long because you're not going to read it. Of course not.

And so they always have somewhere in page 38.2.3.a that there's some clause that, by the way, we can sell your information. You can't do anything about it, right? So that is the place where I see people go longer on purpose. And I think a lot of that's going to go away just because AI is so good now at like scanning long documents.

And you could say, what do I need to watch out for over here? And boom, it'll take you right to that place. So I think we're going to see a lot of the really long stuff go away. Okay. So we talked about just condense things, have more brevity. What other skills are important to be a good writer?

Before you even write anything, it's just like, is this interesting? Let's say it's a cold email. Let's say you want them to take an action. I always start with that. What is the purpose of this email is to teach them like a specific lesson or get them to take a specific action.

It generally makes everything a lot more interesting. So finding the reason is the first thing that people need to do if they're going to write about something before they ever start writing. Okay. So do you do that anytime you're sending a memo, writing an email, let's pretend I've got to send an email to someone I collaborate with at work to try to get them to kind of see my perspective on a project.

Yeah. So if you want them to see your perspective on a project, first of all, I go, okay, one, how is it going to be worth this person's time? So there's like a concept of a win, win, win. I win, you win, the company wins. We all win. How do we set it up like that?

So instead of just me raw dumping all my thoughts onto an email and expecting them to read it, I'm thinking about them. I'm just like, okay, if I just raw dump a full page or two of my thoughts, now they have to read this. This is giving them more work.

This is an assignment for them, right? So anytime I get a long email too, someone's like, Hey, can you help me with this? I'm like, you're giving me an assignment. Now I have more work because of you. Like that's the opposite of what I want. So I always think like, how can I make this person's life easier?

So I could just say, Hey, Chris, I have thoughts on this. You got time in 10 minutes to talk, call my number, something like that. Something that's very easy for them or give them bullet points of what I'm thinking. And then maybe we could discuss it further. Or I would say, Hey, Chris, I thought this would be cool.

And then I think we would get like a much larger commission. If we did this, I would try to put it some interest in them. So I have noticed, um, for example, if you want people to do something like leave a comment, just saying leave a comment is not really that good.

However, if I say leave a comment and I will send three people who leave a comment randomly, a t-shirt that says copy, I get 500 comments, right? So it's just like that one little extra thing that you can give them to make it worth their while. So if we say like, okay, schedule a time on our Calendly.

Okay. That's fine. And the percentage of people will do it, but how can we really make it? What do you say? Schedule a time on our Calendly for our agency. And we'll do a full SEO report for you, customize and send it to you. It's yours to keep for free.

And they're like, okay, at least I get something out of it. Right? So I always try to think of like, how is it going to be beneficial for them to open this, to do this, to read this? That's the main thing I try to look at. I did this thing called superpower and it's like a blood panel and they give you all these results on your biomarkers.

But I did this call this morning and they said, Hey, schedule your consultation to review your results. And I was like, well, your, your website tells me all the results. So I don't really need anything. But they said, and then we'll send you a summary and an action plan and an overview of everything for free.

You can keep, like, you can keep it. You can have this plan. I was like, oh, that's interesting. And so it did get me to schedule this call. Part of it, you know, is my job. I'm like, I want to review all these services because I'm going to do an episode on all these kind of different ways to test your biomarkers.

But they did have that artifact and it made me want to schedule the call to get it. They made it about you. It pertains to you and your body. So of course you're interested. You're doing a blood panel to, to, I presume be healthier, stronger, whatever. And this is going to give you answers on how to do that.

It was the perfect thing. They didn't make it about them. Hey, we're going to give you the history of this company of performance health or whatever it's called. And said they made it about you. Like we could just request something, but always like add a little, little cherry on top.

Yeah. Always a good tactic. Okay. I want to come back a little bit to shortification. How are ways that you are brief and clear? How do you encourage someone to take an email when they wrote the five paragraphs and they're like, now I need to get it shorter. What tactics would you use to try to do that?

Bullet points is the first small one. Like, can, can this whole paragraph be a bullet point within the last two years? We have a new thing called chat GPT and AI that can help you with this. You throw it through there and say, shorten this, write it in the style of X, like maybe Neville Madura, Chris Hutchins, whatever.

And it'll do it really well for you. Right? So AI is good at taking long things and making it short. Sometimes it sucks, but it's getting better and better all the time. And so I like to put things in bullet points, especially if there's a lot of numbers, right?

So let's say that report that you were getting about your health. What if it just said, by the way, here's the top three things you need to watch out on your health. And it gave you a number that would be very, very interesting to you. Right? And so I like to bullet point things and take whole paragraphs and say, can we make this one sentence?

Can we make this just a few words? Or can I put a number and a quick explanation of what this is? The other way, I'm a big fan of these mock-up images. So let's say we're trying to advertise a Dyson vacuum and charge $500 versus like $120 shark vacuum.

What I would like to see is a picture of the Dyson vacuum with little arrows to each part of it and be like, the Dyson ball allows you to go under couches easier. The Dyson sucks 60% harder than all the other ones. The Dyson, even though it's more expensive, it lasts 10 times longer than a normal vacuum, whatever.

So I would like to see those types of things. So in one little image, imagine like an Instagram square, I know all about that product and there's barely any text on it. I'm not having to read an entire sales pitch. I'm just looking at a quick image with a couple arrows.

That's it. So that's what I mean by the shortification of information or minimization. Instead of a 30 minute long video, is it possible that we can make this a YouTube short? Now, I'm not saying that everything you do has to be like ultra short. You can go into very in-depth on a sales page about the Dyson vacuum.

But if you're trying to show an ad for it, you can't show an entire sales page. You just got that one little image with a couple of pieces of arrow to get people's interest. So that's the types of stuff where I'm just like, take a lot of information and condense it down into a small amount of space.

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Okay, I look back when I was a product manager, and I would write these kind of like, why does this product exist? What does it do? Why should we build it at this company? And it was like, there's just a lot of information. And I'm wondering, okay, yes, there's a lot of things I should get across.

Does anyone really need this? I'm just trying to get super tactical about like, what's the process to take this two pages and make it the most compelling thing I could send my team or my boss? As you know, in companies and memos, people don't really read them all that often, especially if they're two pages long.

But you can shorten it with those types of frameworks sometimes. So who, where, why, when is one of my favorites. It should have all those pertinent things on it. And so I like just saying, like, what is the main reason that I'm sending this email to people? Maybe you could just talk about your mission in one paragraph.

When you say, here's the mission of our company, here's why I chose it, let's get to work. Do you really need to explain the entire thing inside of an email? Probably not. You know where it would be good to go long form with that? In person. But if you're sending a memo that people are, once again, just like lightly reading along with a hundred other emails that they have, then that's not the place to expound your long form thoughts.

Okay. And you've probably worked with thousands of people and companies to get better. It's a lot now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How many revisions do you think it takes to get to that perfect email? Yeah. It's like one or two revisions. My favorite thing to do is not write for companies, but write with companies.

Right. Because if I just write for them, they don't learn how to do anything. Then they just rely on me. Instead we say, okay, what do you got? And let's go revise it. So let's say they write some really long form B2B sounding bullshit stuff. None of it works.

We could just say like, okay, what's interesting about this and what they'll do is the, usually the first thing that comes out of their mouth, I'll be like, that was it. One of the biggest problems I see that happens when people write really boring stuff, especially within the context of a company is they're writing with like a big committee.

So someone's like, well, what about this? What about this? And then you get this like weird congealed idea where instead I'm like, okay, pause. What are we sending this in? And they're like, this is going to be at the top of our newsletter for our company, for all of our employees to read.

I'm like, okay, so let's keep it just two, three paragraphs at most. Let's try to include an image that's interesting and let's try to make it something that can help them. Right. And then it could be something about like, here's how to get the most out of your 401k with XYZ company.

Here's how to get the best healthcare from XYZ company. Here's the wins that we had at XYZ company that you can tell your family that we did. Right. And then give a list, something along those lines. And what happens is we start spitballing ideas and everyone goes like, oh, I know that one's really interesting.

Everyone asks about that all the time. Then I'm like, that's the concept that we're going to go after. Right. Whereas I feel like, and I've seen this a lot more now, people just be like, go to chat GPT or something and ask like, what are some cool things we could write about in a newsletter?

And it generally picks vague, generic topics that most people don't care about inside of your company. And so figuring out the kernel of what's interesting. Right. And then going along with that. And then I say, okay, how can we take one image, two paragraphs and make that interesting? And then we go from there.

And almost every single time, that's just the same format. You mentioned that I did a lot of, I've done a lot of consults with different companies from the fortune 50 to smaller companies, to midsize companies. Shockingly, it's the same advice every single time. So if we write something interesting for a big company, it tends to work for a small company and vice versa.

Yeah. And when you say company, you don't necessarily only mean what the company puts on their website to market to consumers. It could be internal communication as well. And with teams and that kind of stuff, right? Yeah. And the internal communication, a lot of times they get really liberal because they think everyone's just like really sitting there and reading it.

And so there's all these famous case studies where people will be like, if you read this, well, I'll send you $50. Just respond to this email. And then no one will respond. And therefore, you have to make these interesting. You have to understand that people's eyeballs are being distracted everywhere whenever they're reading their email like that.

And then here's the thing. If someone starts sending you non-interesting stuff day after day, week after week, year after year, they tend not to pay attention to you. Whereas if you send, for example, in the All the Hacks newsletter, it's really, really, really good information every single time. People start looking forward to it.

So for example, if I got an email from my mom, it might not have the best subject line in the world, but I'm going to read it because it's from my mom, right? So the sender is actually the most important thing. The subject line is almost irrelevant if you have a very strong reputation as a good sender.

So that's kind of some of the long-term stuff we think about. So you talked about getting people's interest. I think I've seen you write a few posts on the ADA formula. And you think that's something everyone should be using? That's like the only formula. The people, there's all these like different copywriting formulas.

I'm telling you, they all stem from ADA. And some people are like, well, what if you add agitation in your, I'm like, I know, but you're building on ADA. So for people who don't know, ADA means attention, interest, desire, action. Get their attention, interest them with interesting things, quotes, give them the desire, make them see how good life would be with your product, and then get them to take an action.

This is the four-step way to psychologically get someone to buy something. And it works every single time over every single industry. And the reason is, it's because it's designed for human brains, right? So back in the 1800s, ADA was still a formula. The 1900 is still a formula. The 2000s was still a formula.

The internet age, it's still a formula. And the reason is our human hardware brain has not really changed whatsoever. And so using this formula is pretty much the way to sell everything. So whether you're doing a very, very short, cold email, each one of these can be a few words or a few sentences.

If you're making a sales page, generally, you break your sales page down into this formula. So it's used pretty ubiquitously almost everywhere in a lot of good marketing. It's funny because when you say sell something, my brain instantly thinks, okay, I have this product and I'm selling it. And then I just started processing other ideas where I was like, oh, I remember an email I sent to a bunch of people in our family trying to pick where we go for a family reunion, right?

It's like, okay, well, I'm not selling them a good for dollars, but I have a thing that I'm trying to get them to buy, quote unquote. And, you know, same thing. You're filling out applications for a job. You're trying to sell yourself. You know, when I think buying and product, I think very narrowly, but it seems like almost all of the communication I'm doing, I'm trying to get someone to buy or buy into some idea or something.

Yeah, you're trying to sell them an idea. Yeah. You're trying to educate them on something. And this seems to still work there, whether you're writing a college application or a job application, or you're trying to convince your family to go to Mexico instead of, I don't know, Jamaica. Literally every time.

And here's the other thing. So if I was trying to convince my family to go to Jamaica instead of Bermuda, there's two decisions where I'll split. Instead of being like, guys, I really want to go and throwing a temper tantrum. Instead, I would think like, how would I sell this with the ADA formula?

And I was just like, guys, look at the place that we're going to stay at. This is unbelievable. And this costs literally 40% less than Bermuda. In fact, Jamaica is actually two hours closer and the customs aren't as hard to get through each time. And this place that we wanted to stay in Bermuda, this is actually an hour away from the airport.

This place is only like 10 minutes away and Uber works great over there. And we will also stay downtown. So we'll be able to walk to everything. Whereas this Bermuda place, I mean, it's great, but we have to like Uber to every single thing that we go to. So it's very remote.

And so I would start introducing all these different ideas. I would start interesting them with like interesting facts. And then desire would be like, anyways, I want the easiest thing for all of our kids with the least amount of time, the least amount of expense, but for the best experience.

And it sounds like this is going to be the one. So let's go to Jamaica. Reply yes. If you want me to start making the Jamaica bookings. So in my head, I can make that sale very easy because I have that ADA framework locked and loaded. And I've learned that it's just like, just do it with ADA.

I've tried so many different ways to try so many different types of things, but it just doesn't work as well as ADA does. So when people try to think like, well, how do I approach this? I'm like, try it with ADA first. It's a pretty straightforward thing. So I was able to make up that example on the fly really quick, just because like I have ADA in my head, whereas someone else would be like, why is Jamaica better than Bermuda?

And they have to like, start thinking about this whole thing, but I got this locked and loaded and it's just much easier to do it that way. And you could sell anything like that. You could tell your kids to clean their room in that way. It's a really, really, really useful framework to learn.

So let's go back to what you said before about bullet points and brevity. What you just explained pitching this trip, it was kind of long. Would it actually be, hey, here's what I think, bullet, if we're going real tactical on how you would write, you know, an email like this to your family?

Yeah. For the interest part, that's like interesting quotes, interesting stats, interesting statistics, all those types of things. That would probably be a couple of bullet points. And then like one sentence would be the desire of just like, I think if we chose Jamaica, it should be the most cost efficient.

And we'd actually get to do surfing this, there's all these other things that we wouldn't get to do in Bermuda because we're too far. And then like reply, yes, if you want me to get started. Booking the Jamaica trip. It's really, really simple, but it's very, very influential. I probably convinced you to go to Jamaica instead of Bermuda, even though I know nothing about both.

So now here's a question. Just, just, just to probe on it. What do you think of reply? Yes. To go to get me to do this versus reply. No. If you think we should do something else, like giving people the, the opt in versus the opt out. The only problem with the problem with the last thing you said is reply.

No, if you don't want me to like, if you break that down, like my brain computer had to spend more time processing that than just like reply. Yes. Or you could just say reply, Jamaica or Bermuda for your vote. Right. Just like something dead simple. I was thinking, you know, if this sounds good to the family, I'll start booking it.

If you don't think we should let me know, which means that to say yes, you don't do anything. That's where I was going was trying to think through, like, how do you make it dead simple? I would probably say don't reply and I'll just start booking it. If you have a problem, respond back.

Right. I would just make it more simple. So, so people aren't like, wait, what does that mean? And then anytime you confuse people, a lot of times what they'll do is defer. So even if they don't close the email out and delete it, they'll like, just keep it in their inbox and come back to it later.

Whereas if you make it super ultra, ultra stupid, easy, they'll just do it right then. For example, uh, we have a newsletter as well that goes out on Friday called the swipes email. And every once in a while we'll pull people. And what we do is it was just say, respond to this email with a question.

However, I've learned over time that if you say to a group of a hundred thousand people reply with, uh, why you don't like using the internet, you have now given them an assignment, right? And assignments are hard. That means they have to reply maybe on their phone and think about all the reasons they don't like the internet and they have to type it out and then send it.

Instead, if I just include ABC and like a, it spends too much time, B, it's not good for the youth, C, whatever. And I just asked them to reply with their letter. They can even reply on their phone. Just like reply, C, send. That's it done. And so I have noticed that if you just make it easy for people, you get way more of that action.

So we use that in sales all the time. So it's either like book a Calendly link over here or something easy like that, or reply. Yes. And I'll send you my phone number. We can schedule a call. There's something very, very, very simple, but also when they reply that acknowledges they've read it and then taken some sort of action as well.

Yeah. So I do like getting a reply. It is helpful. Our mutual friend, Nick Gray taught me something on the Calendly link thing that I really I've adopted, which is a lot of people feel like if you send someone a Calendly link, it's kind of arrogant where it's like, my schedule is more important.

Please find something on my time. And so he has this little guide that he wrote up to like how to dial in your Calendly process. And I stole it from him, you know, with his permission is I say, please feel free to send me a time that works for you.

Or if you'd rather, you can use my Calendly link. And it's like anytime you ask someone to do something, is there a way you can reframe the ask so it doesn't feel like, you know, you're the most important thing. And that one little example I adopted, but it's kind of reframed all of these things to try to always give someone an option.

And in this case, and it's way more work for them to go look at their schedule, find seven times, copy them and put them an email or just click the link. So you can kind of find a way to make your ask feel better, but still get the result you want.

Two thoughts. When people think that a Calendly link is like harder, I'm just like, what are you talking about? The alternative is so hard. So Calendly makes everyone's life easier to I say the same thing, but except slightly different. I say, let me know what time works well for you.

I'm free all next week. I'll Calendly link if easier. And then people understand that it's never been a problem. And if someone thinks it's arrogant, I mean, I mean, what, what day and age are you living in? We talked a lot about email. You said that if the sender is really important, then the subject barely matters.

What about when the sender is not important? When you're like, I really want to get someone to open this email. How do you think about subjects? Yeah. So there's a couple of different ways you could do it. You could lie, right? You could do the old, the R E colon trick where it looks like you've already replied.

And here's the thing. It works really well about twice. And then people spam you, right? Also Google's promo tab is very good at spotting mass emails, right? So you probably get sorted in the correct way. Anyways, what I have noticed, and this is contrary to all marketing advice. People like to think that like the subject line is like the number one thing.

And I've actually just noticed that it's not. Yes. You could sort of sometimes get a slightly higher open rate from something, but I would encourage people to try an AA test instead of an AB test. AB test is where you test two different subject lines, test the same subject line versus the same subject line.

And it's the weirdest thing. You'll get different results. You won't get exactly 50, 50. One will be like 75, 30. And you're just like, what happened there? It's the same thing, right? It's, it's, it's very, very weird. And so what I have noticed is that just putting a vague, a vague subject about what's in there, right?

If I'm a brick company trying to get a large contract for a housing contractors, brick business, I just say like, we have bricks 30% cheaper than Acme company that you're using. Just like a sentence. It's very matter of fact. And perhaps 30% off brick cost is probably a big deal to them.

So I try to go with something that matters to them and that's it. And what I do is I'll generally write four subject lines. I don't know why I used to try to do 20. I think it's too many, but I'll handwrite four subject lines. Don't think about it really quick.

Subject line one, subject line two, subject line three, subject line four. I write the email and then I come back to it in a few minutes and just look at it and go, which one is like the most punchy? And I select that one. That is about the most scientific process we've ever found.

And I don't think there's another process that's much better than that. Different subject lines perform differently at different times of the year. Different subject lines that perform good now may not perform good later. It's just such a random hit or miss. So whenever people are just like, the subject line is the biggest thing.

It's just like, well, that is not my experience from what I've seen. You can get slight increases in subject line. However, for example, Tim Ferriss. Some people love Tim Ferriss and they will not miss his Friday emails, right? Weren't you recently mentioned in one of his emails, right? Yeah.

And you say it got a big bump. And that's because a lot of people like Tim Ferriss. And when they see his name in their newsletter, they're like, hey, this is going to be good stuff. What's the newsletter called? It's called like the March 25th, three bullet Friday. It's like, it's nothing.

It's not even a good subject line, right? It doesn't, it doesn't matter what it's called. It's because he is sending an email and they are looking forward to him. So if you have a newsletter or you are a person that's known for sending really good content all the time, then you get a higher subject line rate open.

I don't want to elevate myself to Tim's level, but I'm curious. I've A-B tested so many subjects of my newsletter and everyone underperforms the standard, which is literally just my top finds, latest deals and best recommendations, 315, 25. Precisely what I'm talking about. Like we, we go the swipes email newsletter, March 25th.

That's it. We tried like doing AI and like saying what you think the best would be. And it always goes lower. And then sometimes we try to change it around. And I think people like the familiarity, the regularity of your newsletter. And then you compete based off your reputation, not some trick that you're trying to get them to open in a subject line.

On the topic of email, if you're doing this for work and you're trying to get really high response rate to emails you're sending to lots of people you don't know, any tips there? Yeah. If you send cold emails to a bunch of random people, let's say the fortune 100 with very busy inboxes.

These are very in-demand people. Let's say VPs of marketing. You're going to get a 1% response rate at best. I mean, that's like amazing. If you get that just with cold emails with those people. Now, let's say you send them a letter. Maybe some of them will open it.

But if you want to get 100% response rate, what would be interesting is a UPS package. Because who gets a UPS package and doesn't open it? UPS packages get roughly a 100% open rate. So if you address it to the Nike CMO in New York and he gets this package and he opens it, he's like, what the heck is this?

And then inside there's a box of chocolates and maybe 10 slides pitching your company. He is likely to actually read that and probably very likely to at least eat the box of chocolates or send it to someone in the company and they eat the box of chocolates. So if you want to get 100% open rate, send a package.

We've actually done this. And unfortunately, like every client that does this, you cannot tell anyone about this. It's like private consult. So I don't say specifically who the companies are. But I'll give one example. E-commerce companies at Christmas time will often have a very busy like Q4, right? And they need a lot of help.

They're making a lot of landing pages. They're making a lot of specialty pages. And their own employees can't afford to do all of those things at the same time. So they hire out some of that design work. And so this company just basically takes these pages and just take PSD files, Figma files, and makes them into working web pages.

That's all they do. And they work with really big companies. So what we did was we sent, we made a custom box of chocolates spelled out in their company name. So that costs like 25 bucks per box to get made for them. And then what we did was we sent loose leaf pieces of paper.

And it's basically like a printed out PowerPoint with roughly 10 to 12 pages. One page is like, here's all the different companies we've worked with. Insert big name, insert big name, insert big name. Here's exactly what we do. We take your designs and we make them into working web pages, mobile friendly, super optimized lighthouse scores of 99% or above.

That's it. It's like, we work with your current employees. We're not looking to replace anyone. We're looking to augment them or looking to support them. And then it just gives a pitch. It's like, you send us a napkin drawing, an example of some other page you like, and we'll go and make it.

Here's how to contact us. That's it. That's the whole thing. It's a super stupid, simple pitch with the box of chocolates. And that's it. And what happens is these people open it and they go, Ooh, chocolate. So there's something in it for them already. And then two, they read it and they're like, Oh, this is pretty simple.

I'll keep this for later. And what they do is they take that piece of paper, they put it in their drawer, or they take that piece of paper and they put it over to the right department where that could actually be bought. Right. Or to the person in charge.

That's just like, Hey, this is kind of cool. We always get overloaded in the holidays. Maybe we could try something like this. And so that kind of physical mail actually works incredibly well. The downside is it costs roughly $50 a package, depending on what you're sending. Right. And then it also takes labor to make these packages and send them.

However, if you were going after a fortune 100 company, there's 100 companies for you to go after. This is probably the way to do it. You'll spend a few thousand dollars, but each of these contracts is worth, you know, a hundred thousand dollars or more. So that was, that was one of the few ways that we've seen people go back to direct mail in packages to get way higher response rates than cold emails ever do.

What do you think about that tactic for someone who got laid off is looking for a job and wants to stand out to a hiring manager and you go on the website, you fill out the application, you send in your resume and it gets buried in a pile of a bunch of other resumes.

Could this work in that case? Let's say you were to send your resume and get creative. Okay. Instead of printing out a resume and sending them like everyone, what if you printed it out on a giant cardboard thing, right? And sent a package to the hiring manager and he gets this big UPS package.

And it's like, what is this? And it's like your giant printed out resume that would skip you to the front of the line in terms of his attention. Now, maybe you suck compared to everyone else and he won't hire you, but the point is he will 100% see you, right?

And then also just like the added moxie of doing that would be really cool. I had a job or a company that said mobile text message offers. And I remember I had all these different ideas on how we can sign more people up. And I was like, but if we're signing people up on college campuses, what if we just had a sign saying what the company does?

Cause we have to sit there and explain it every time. So I was standing at this table trying to explain to every single person what this is. And they're like, what? Instead, I got on Photoshop and I mocked it up and I showed like, you get like 30% off Chipotle when you walk by a Chipotle or whatever.

And then you can just point at the sign and be like, see, whenever you walk by Chipotle, you get that text message and you might get 30% off by just showing them that code. And people go, oh shit. Yeah, that's awesome. And the CEO reached out. He started talking to me directly.

And so I just remember just like taking initiative to do stuff like that or sending something out like that goes way further than just like submitting stuff the normal way. So if you're just sending a cold email, like everyone else, that's one thing. But if you go out of your way, send a giant postcard or what we call lumpy mail, you have like an envelope, but there's like, there's like a lump in it.

And you're like, what's in the envelope? That's how you get people's attention quicker. Now it doesn't mean you're going to get the job every time, but it will get their attention every time. This episode is brought to you by Built Rewards, which is an amazing points program with so many ways to earn, including on your rent, where you don't even need to check with your landlord.

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I assume that if I did a little research into paper airplanes, there would be a design for a paper airplane that is so much better than the one that we all made as kids with three or four folds. My advice, if you try this, let me know how it works.

But I imagine you send your resume with a piece of paper that's like, here are instructions how to turn this into the best paper airplane you've ever thrown. And you can show everyone, your kids, your family, that you now know how to make the most efficient paper airplane. I don't know.

I think if I receive that, I'd be like, this is both cool and interesting. I got to look at what this person did. Just make sure the paper airplane actually works. Yeah, that could be something interesting. So we talked about ADA. Are there any other frameworks you think are valuable for people to use as flows or practices or templates for writing?

For the most part, for writing, I would say the ADA formula is probably by and far my number one thing that I could possibly do. Now, when it comes to something like a sales page, a lot of times, instead of reinventing the wheel of like, I'll often go to Framer, I'll go to Figma, Canva, any of those types of things.

And I'll pick out the different things I want and just pick and choose pieces that I want and put them together. I actually have a site called Swipe File where I literally collect all these different things. So it's a collection of different marketing that's like interesting, that's funny, that's good layouts that has converted really well.

And whenever I go to get inspiration for something, I just go to Swipe File and click on a section. I'm like, I want to design a sales page. So I go and look at different sales pages and go, ooh, this is the kind of sales page I want. And I'll generally copy the format of that sales page.

So if I think it works really well and I see it in action on another site, I'll try to conform it to whatever I'm trying to sell. Another thing is if you type in a edit any web page copywriting course, you'll find a little JavaScript. And I keep this on my toolbar.

I use it probably 10 times a day because we help all these clients. And basically, if I go to the All the Hacks podcast page, I can click this button in my Chrome browser and it'll let me edit any text on your page. Now, it doesn't change your website.

It just changed it locally on my side. If your headline is join the All the Hacks podcast by Chris Hutchins, I could say become a smarter creator in 10 minutes, Chris Hutchins, and just mock it up directly on the sales page. That's one of my favorite ways to use templates.

It's like take an existing page and just insert my own stuff there and see how it looks. One of the things you mentioned about swipe file, obviously, you've got a directory of all these great people's work. One thing that I found that's super helpful, and we're going to talk about AI tools in a minute, but whenever you do something that you think really worked and you liked it, put it somewhere for your own kind of swipe file of copy that worked or an email that you loved.

And one, it's helpful for future inspiration to I found that more and more the way I'm using AI tools is like, oh, can you help me write this thing? Here's five things I wrote that I really liked. Do it in this style. Paste the five things. Without having to give context every single time.

I think someday in the future, these AI tools will have such persistent memory that they'll just be like, oh, I already know what you like because you've told me 50 times. But right now, it seems like you have to do a lot of reminding. Well, it's cool. One, I have a unique name, Neville Medora.

There's one other guy in the world named that, I think. So it's pretty easy, and I'm the only one that publishes online. So it knows how I write, which is nice. But if I just say write like Chris Hutchins at All The Hacks Podcast, these AIs are just so good now that it just it knows how you write.

For someone who's never written anything on the Internet, you can give it your work. You know, I almost think that like it's going to get so good that you won't have to tell it this stuff. So, for example, I like a wait, but why the way he writes. So I would say write it like wait, but why, but make it a little bit more professional.

Like don't make it as goofy. So you can say stuff like that if you want. And that's an interesting way to do it. Yeah, so you can combine here's someone I like, here's me, here's stuff I like of mine, and here's what I'm trying to say. Help me put it together.

Yeah, I find I'm doing that less and less because the final result that it gives is just so good now that you almost like don't have to do it anymore. And I know there's a ton of tools. Are there tools that you're using that are better for writing? You know, I know people say, oh, Claude's the best for coding.

But for writing, what AI tools have you been the most impressed with? If you follow Twitter, it makes it sound like there's some huge AI arms race and they're all so different. They all catch up to each other within weeks. Like something comes out and then like the next version of it, it has.

And so I pay for ChatGPT, the premium version. I use Grok a lot. If I'm asking questions that are a little bit spicy or about controversial topics, politics, whatever, Grok is probably the best because it's the least censored. ChatGPT is still really, really, really, really good. And even Google's Gemini, just the normal AI answers that pop up at the top.

Those are getting better all the time. So for the average person that's using these AIs, I got to say, they're all the same to me. They all give roughly the same outputs. But honestly, I just end up using ChatGPT every time. And every time I get the new models, it's just better and better and better.

The one thing I'll say that I've been doing a lot of for ChatGPT is you can go create your own GPTs. And what you can do is you can basically preload all this instruction. So let's say you're someone who's writing a bunch of applications, whether it's for a job.

You could go in and say, hey, here's my resume. Here's what I'm interested in. Here's the career I want. And load all that in. And then you have a GPT that's like, you know, cover letter writer. And anytime you need to apply for a new job, you could open that up and say, I'm applying for a job at this company for this role.

Here's the job rec. Here's the website. Write this. And it has all this stored context for a very specific purpose. So if I want help writing the intro to a podcast, you know, I've got my podcast intro bot where I say, look, I love to pull quotes. I love to do this.

This is what I want. And it'll help me kind of do that anytime I upload a transcript. Yeah, GPTs were really useful when they came out. And I was excited about them and I made a bunch. And then it just got so good that you didn't need the GPTs.

So I've actually stopped using them quite as much. And I've noticed the use case for GPTs erode a little bit. Okay. In my personal experience. Yeah. To go back to this idea of kind of quick things. Why do you recommend people read their copy out loud? Because it makes you talk like a human instead of like a robot that you're like writing an English class.

Dear sirs, to whom it may concern those types of things. It completely eliminates that. And one of the things I've noticed in every single consult that I do where they have really bad copy, I say, what does this product actually do? I've read this whole sales page. I don't understand.

And they're like, oh, it takes your writing and it just makes LinkedIn posts out of it. And I'm like, yeah, why don't you say that? So whenever someone says something out loud, there is some succinct magic to it where you're just like, if you just take that and put it in text, that's what it is.

So that's why I tell people to read it out loud. Also, if you're sitting there reading and babbling, it's really, really long. You start going, oh, this is, this is too long. And you start cutting it. When you think about writing content for the Internet, in the future, like right now, I'm using deep research to try to learn about a lot of things, which means I'm not actually reading the source material.

Is there anything you're changing about the way you write content, knowing that there might be a future where the consumer of that content is not a human reading it, but some software reading it and incorporating it into other things? Absolutely. It's called, I call it SEO 1.0 versus SEO 2.0.

SEO 1.0 was like fooling Google into putting you higher than other people. So you get on the front of the search engines. Now, Google is so good at that. Like all those tactics have kind of fallen out of favor, but SEO 2.0 is like what unique human experience can you give to an AI that it will send traffic to you?

So for example, what's a bad thing to put for SEO 2.0? Like the 10 best ways to clean a countertop. Instead, here's a weird way I use, I use Tide with bleach to clean a countertop. And here's how I did it on my marble counters in Austin, Texas. That very personal example is what the AI will find useful and novel to train on, right?

So I almost think what's a weird edge case that the AI can use more so than like, okay, how do we like change this headline to more fit what Google wants? So I will say that there is this move from SEO 1.0 to SEO 2.0. So ChatGPT, people still say, what's the best vacuum for a 35-year-old mom that can lift about 30 pounds and has two kids, right?

Like that's a question that Amazon can never answer, but ChatGPT could. And so it'll go research all the different things and spit off the right answer. So if you start putting out a lot of different use cases for a certain type of vacuum, why it's good for moms, why it's good for babies, why it's good for the air quality, whatever.

I think that's the way to approach SEO 2.0. In my opinion, it's still early, but I think that's how it's going to work. Yeah, the way I've been thinking about it, I think we're probably slightly further when it comes to audio content than written content, but I don't think we're that far.

And I think what I'm trying to do more of is what I'll call like primary research instead of secondary research, because I think the AI is just so good. If you have this article, the 10 best vacuum cleaners, it's unlikely unless you're the wire cutter or something that you bought 10 vacuum cleaners and went and used them all.

What you've probably done is searched all over the Internet, tried to find all these other people's reviews and synthesize that to what do you think the best 10 are? Unfortunately, ChatGPT can probably do that better and more personalized. But if you were like, I went deep on this one vacuum, you know, that piece of content is probably something that you're not going to find as much on the Internet and you can be a better source for the world.

So I'm trying to say, OK, I did this episode on best bank accounts. There's a million websites that do best bank accounts, but none of them actually go and use them. So how can I talk about the experience opening them and using them versus just reading their marketing pages?

Because I think that content is more interesting. There's a whole other layer on top of the Internet. Like at first, ChatGPT just read web pages. The current thing that it's doing now at a 60% proficiency is watching YouTube videos. It's reading transcripts. And then when it's able to watch videos, watch this.

How did Neville react? Is he lying? Like it'll get better and better and better. And when it's able to train on all the video content that you have, including your backlog of content, that's going to be very, very powerful. And so people that are talking deep about like maybe a long form podcast about a specific type of vacuum cleaner, why it's good and why people like or don't like it would be very valuable to the AI because it could train on something like that.

It's like human experiences that it can't just like make up. I think that's what's going to be rewarded. Essentially, it's the same thing as SEO 1.0. Make really interesting shit and put it out. But the problem that Google introduced was that you got so heavily rewarded by doing SEO that everyone started to talk about the same things.

Like everyone like in copywriting was right. How to become a copywriter. That was like for whatever reason, that was like the number one search term. So every copywriting page, including mine, would have a how to become a copywriter article. And the next one would be copywriting examples. And so instead of me writing actually interesting shit, I was going after a bunch of SEO stuff.

Now what I can do is I could be like, hey, one of the guys inside of our copywriting community, he was going to a conference and he wanted to get more clients for a service. So he just wore a shirt that said copywriter. Literally, that's all it said. And people are like, are you a copywriter?

And then he ended up getting a bunch of business. That's an interesting example. You were smiling while you said that. You just learned something of like, oh, hey, if I wrote podcaster, people will ask me about my podcast or whatever, right? And maybe I'll get introduced to other podcasters.

So like that's an interesting example. I should have been writing about. But Google distracted us because the rewards are so heavy for me to be like, how to become a copywriter, even though I think most people shouldn't become copywriters. So it just rewarded the wrong thing. And I think actually AI will now start rewarding the correct thing.

What are novel, interesting things that you're doing in general as a human? I want to know that. So there is kind of hope to bring back like the kind of golden days of internet content before it got taken over by just like SEO keywords. Any exercises for someone who wants to get started and just start writing better?

So this is what we do. We write and communicate information in terms of making a sale. That is our goal, right? And so with that, I think there's a thing called copy work. And that's where you take classic ads. I would say look up David Ogilvie ads, some of my favorite.

Like there's a man in the Hathaway shirt. Or there's a famous one called how to create advertising that sells. And if you hand copy that, what you'll learn is like how David Ogilvie, a legend, a proven legend, writes. You'll be like, oh, he uses really, really short sentences. He uses really simple words.

And you'll see the way he uses punctuation. You'll see the way he uses bullet points. And so if you hand copy a couple of these, this is a classic thing called copy work that many copywriters have started on. By just taking some of your favorite pieces, whether it's a blog post and retyping it, or taking an ad from a magazine and literally like handwriting it.

I prefer handwriting it because you get a more visceral feel. But you start to see how people write. And it kind of makes you think like, oh, Warren Buffett writes his annual notes in such an interesting way. I want to write like that because I like reading them. And so that's one of my first things.

The other thing I do is called mental ad rewriting. And you remember way back in the day at SkyMall? I don't even remember those days. It used to be SkyMall magazine. And I got this idea from that because they would have all these wacky ass inventions. And I would say, how could I write this better?

Or what better picture could I put there? And I actually started doing mental ad rewriting across everything I did. Sometimes I'll see a billboard and I don't even know what it's for. And I'm like, what are they doing? Instead, I think, how could I have made that better? And constantly doing that with everything is a great, great way to exercise your copywriting muscle.

I love those. Okay. I have two last things. First, what do you think the impact is on someone's life if they can really master the art of copywriting? If someone becomes a better copywriter, they, of course, write better emails, better sales pages, better home pages, better blog posts, better anything written.

However, it's also a mental framework on how to sell. Let's say you're a doctor and you're trying to sell an idea to a patient to lose weight. All of these things can be better explained if you know copywriting well. If you know something like the ADA formula, if you know how to get people interested in something before talking about it, that will go very far in you being a better salesperson.

So anytime you approach a situation, you're more likely to get someone to do what you want. You're more likely to close a sale. You're more likely to convince them of an idea. So just think about that. Imagine the conversion rate of every interaction you have in life goes up by 50%.

Would that help? Probably. So that is one of the main reasons I think people should learn copywriting. It's not just for your writing, but it's also just for framing the way you think, making sure that you present things better and sell every idea product you ever try to pitch better.

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So outside of just writing, you know, you said crashing parties to make big networks. Tell me about this, because I'm guessing this is maybe some of your copywriting skills applied in person. Yeah, now I have a cool network. I don't necessarily need to crash parties. However, 18-year-old Neville in college did not have a lot of, like, cool, rich friends or anything like that.

So I had a mentor, and he would go to all these, like, really high-end parties in Austin. I had no idea this, like, world even existed. And it was, like, Michael Dell and all these, like, other billionaires. Now, keep in mind, I looked a little bit demographically different than most of the people going there.

So I had to blend in really fast. You want to know my failsafe for crashing a party? This worked every time, and it never doesn't work. If you come in with, like, a lanyard under, like, a green yellow and purple lanyard, it doesn't really matter. But it's, like, covered by your suit.

And then you also walk in with a glass of wine with wine in it and a cocktail napkin around that glass. And you just walk in on the phone. They're like, clearly this guy was just inside the high-end party. Like, who would be walking around with a wine glass and a tuxedo?

It worked so well. That was such a cheat code. And so that's how I originally formed a network, by, like, crashing parties. Like, you don't know anyone, and how do you build a network out of that? And so that was a great way that I met a lot of mentors.

And then later in life, I realized, like, if I just look at the best men at my wedding, almost all of them were from the internet. Like, people I met on the internet years ago. Noah Kagan, Sam Parr. He's been buddies for decades, right? And we met each other through our blogs, through social media.

You were there, too. We were at an email marketing conference recently in Austin. We're so cool. And there was about 300 people in the email space. And if you didn't know someone, you probably followed them online. And because you follow them online, you know them already. And so when you meet, it's like you got a buddy.

And so I also think, like, posting on the internet and just participating on the internet. You don't even have to post. But even replying and having conversations is probably one of the best ways to meet people now, that I think. But I do remember, I was able to jump way above my station in life by crashing some parties and going where the people were.

I think one other fun thing, come back full circle to another person in Austin, was Nick Gray. He sends this friends newsletter. And so for people who don't have a professional topic you want to blog about, but you want to write, you want to get it out there, you want to build your relationships with people you meet.

He sends this newsletter out where it's just like, here's a thing I did. Here's some tips I picked up from this thing. It's totally random. It's not on any cadence that I'm aware of. But it's just interesting stuff from an interesting person. And so having your own newsletter, no one knows how many other subscribers you have, right?

Unless you publish that number. It's true. You can just say whatever if you want, too. Yeah. So you could be like, I have this friend's newsletter. You give it to all your friends. Have them subscribe. Maybe you subscribe for them. And they kind of get this update. And I think that's a fun way for someone who wants to practice writing, wants to put some content out there, doesn't necessarily want to have some big public presence.

I love the friend's newsletter. I had one for a while. Now I have a broad one. So, you know, I don't need that anymore because I'm kind of more public about things. But I think that's a fun way to practice writing and share with lots of people or a few people.

That's a really good idea. Nick is really good at that. I also think like he's never not trying to necessarily profit on it in any way because he's already independently wealthy. So he doesn't care. But so he just sends it out. And it's like kind of like a blast from the past of like old school blogging where people just did it for the love of it.

His newsletter reminds me of that. Reminds me. My grandparents always sent like a letter every year. And there's like, here's the something in their Christmas card. There's like a, you know, we went to Hawaii and we did this thing. It was like, you know, it was all the years social media updates like in a letter they sent to people.

And this one's just more visual and whatnot. So you can go check that out. I'll link to it in the show notes. But I thought it was a good example of what you could do, even if you're not trying to build a brand on the internet. Yeah, I think a lot of things in life are like you get what you put into them, right?

So some people, they move to a city and they're like, this city sucks. It's boring. It's just like, well, did you try to do anything? Like Nick Gray moves to Austin and like makes a ton of friends, meets people all over the place, has the biggest network ever because he puts work into it.

So a blog is similar where you can take a lot of those little, you can take a lot of your updates in life and send them out. That's a good idea. Starting a little friends newsletter. That's great. Cool. All right. For people who are like, I want to write more.

I want to be a better copywriter. You mentioned SwipeFile. Where else can they go? Yeah. SwipeFile.com is if you want a bunch of inspiration, you can actually sign up, save swipes. We also have a bunch of templates. So sign up for that. It's free. Then copywriting course is actually one third a course.

So Neville talking about how to get better at copywriting. Then we have this whole community area where you literally upload your copy and myself and other professional writers go and rewrite it and tell you what's wrong with it and how to make it better. Like I said, we write with you.

We don't write for you. It's the best way so you can learn. And then the other thing, every Thursday we do an office hours and it's not even just like writing. It's actually more like business strategy. A lot of people will either have a business. Or be part of a business and be like, how do I like make this better?

So go to copywritingcourse.com. Sign up for a year over there. It's super affordable. Less than the price of like one consult with like a professional. So I think it's one of the best deals out there. Awesome. Neville, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me.