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#AIS: Palmer Luckey on Anduril


Chapters

0:0 Jason intros today's episode
2:31 Palmer Luckey on Anduril, national defense & the current thing
27:6 Bestie Q&A with Palmer
55:15 Jason gives some closing thoughts

Transcript

Hey, everybody. Hey, everybody. We have an exciting show for you today. This is the 15th and the final episode from the All In Summit 2022. I wanted to take a quick moment to thank my team. They worked tirelessly over 100 days to make the event magical for everybody who was able to make it.

Thanks to the audience for coming. Next year, we'll try to have twice as many of you there. Just a quick thank you to Amber, Ashley, Jackie, Nick, Fresh, Maureen, Molly, Big Mike, Andre Times 2, Rachel Reporting, Producer Justin, Jamie, Jimmy T, my brother Josh, everybody who came and supported the event.

We had an incredible crew. We had an incredible time. And of course, I would be remiss if I didn't thank the amazing speakers who joined us from all around the world. So candid, so insightful. My pal, Bill Gurley, Brett Gerstner, Adina, Mar, Tandis, Tim, Elon, Antonio, Nate, Ryan, Claire, my boy, Roboy, Antonio, Garcia Martinez, Joe Lonsdale, James, Matt Taibbi, Glenn Greenwald, and of course, today's guest, the one and the only Mr.

Palmer Lucky. And most of all, I'd like to thank my besties, Chamath Saxon-Friedberg, who did an amazing job of hosting the event. Now, a little preamble here before we start this episode. Many of you have heard that this is a controversial episode. It is a little controversial. There may be a little twist in it.

So I will be coming back. After Palmer Lucky's talk to give you a little context because it might get a little confusing. I don't want to spoil the surprise for you. So enjoy this episode. But before we go to this episode, a lot of you have questions. You have questions about the future of the All In podcast.

And those questions are important. And they're never going to be answered. They're never going to be answered. But just so you know, I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving. The show goes on. This is my home. They're going to need a wrecking ball to take me out of here.

They're going to need to send in the National Guard because I ain't going nowhere. The show goes on. Crazy with it. Love you, besties. - The queen of quinoa. ♫ I'm going all in - Alright, everybody, Palmer! - Palmer! - Lucky! Fantastic. So hang on, did a video play that showed my stuff or no?

That was gonna play at some point. You guys wanna play that video? - Yeah! - Alright, all I can do is stand here, I don't actually have any power-- - Ah! - Ah! - I don't have any power. ♫ I'm going all in ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ I'm going all in, one, two, three, four ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ ♫ PAUL MERLUCKI: Now that the comedy routine is over, we can get started.

So my name is Palmer Lucci. I founded two companies. My first was a company called OculusVR that I founded when I was 19 years old and living in a camper trailer. Thank you, thank you. Um, sold that for a few billion dollars to Facebook and then got fired a few years later and then started Andral because I wanted to work in the national security space for a variety of reasons.

And I'll get into some of those reasons today. So the technology industry for many years has prided itself on being the first to understand where things are heading so that they can build the things that are going to be relevant for the future. On national security though, and on the rise of our strategic adversaries, it was one of the last industries to realize where things were going due to a variety of ideological reasons but also business reasons.

Now Silicon Valley didn't just predict the importance of defense. It largely took the exact wrong position, the opposite position. First of all, you have the obvious examples like big technology companies explicitly refusing to do work with the Department of Defense. Google is one big example. But the worst examples are really in the startups that don't exist because people didn't want to even get into such a controversial space, lest it ruin their careers.

You know, when I started Andral, I had already sold the company for billions of dollars and investors still wanted to get into it. And I was like, "Oh, I'm going to do it." And I was like, "I'm going to do it." But I still didn't want to invest. I still had a tough time in a lot of meetings with venture capitalists, and none of the conversations with VCs that I had were about my ability to hire or execute or build products.

Everyone believed that I could do those things, even the ones who didn't like me much. The vast majority of conversations that we had were about whether or not it was even ethically okay to ever build a company that would build weapons. And the people who turned us down, the ones who decided not to invest in Andral, actually believed that we had a good team and good people.

And good product market fit. The issue is that they thought that it was inherently wrong to build tools capable of being used for violence because they believed that the idea of deterring violence through having a strong arsenal was fundamentally obsolete and itself wrong. Even imagine how hard it would have been to raise money if I hadn't founded Oculus.

It would have been impossible. Even after we raised money and got traction, the negativity continued. There was a really interesting cover story in Bloomberg in 2019 that called us tech's most controversial story. It was about the most controversial startup. This was a year where TikTok was banning users for calling attention to the Uyghur genocide in China and banning users for posting homosexual content.

This is a year in which Adam Neumann paid himself tens of millions of dollars for the right to use the word we. It's a year that Uber was under a federal investigation for its workplace culture immediately after a board coup that ejected much of the leadership. It's a time where Facebook was getting hauled in front of Congress to testify.

But of course, as a company, we're not just talking about the internet. We're talking about the internet. We're talking about the technology. We're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. We're talking about the technology. We're talking about the technology.

We're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology.

And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. And so we're talking about the technology. Every few decades, we start to believe that economic ties have ended all prospect of war.

And every few decades, we're reminded that this isn't true. This is a very popular idea, especially in DC, that we live at what they call the end of history. It's this idea that economic ties and interconnections make the prospect of conflict fundamentally unthinkable, ignoring the fact that many people see this as a matter of destiny in economics.

In 1909, English economist and politician Norman Angell published an entire book called The Great Illusion. And it was entirely about how war in Europe was impossible and that spending money on building militaries that could deter conflict was a waste of time that could be better spent building utopia. He specifically argued that any European country annexing another would be as absurd as London annexing Hertford.

And the book was actually the number one bestseller in 1909. Now we've had some version of this argument for a few decades now, ever since the Cold War started. And luckily, a lot of people are waking up. But unfortunately, it's not because of the war. It's not because they've come to a reasoned decision based on the fundamental principles at play.

It's because right now, supporting the military, supporting defense, and supporting Ukraine in particular has become the current thing. And in current year, current thing is the thing that you have to support, regardless of what you think of the underpinnings. Unfortunately, for issues like defense and national security, the stakes are too high, and the relevant timeline is far too long for people to start caring about things.

So today, I want to talk a little bit about why I started Anduril, and why you should all think exactly the same way that I do. So why I founded Anduril. I thought that I would work on virtual reality for my entire life. I had no plans on leaving Oculus at all.

I love virtual reality. I loved virtual reality. I started Oculus as a teenager, and I would have been there for another 50 years. I said as much less than 30 days before I was fired. There was a lot of time. There's a lot of reasons for that, some of which I'll get into later.

But the decision was made for me. I gave $9,000 against the wrong political candidate, and it was pretty unpopular in Silicon Valley. Before I worked on Oculus, I actually worked in an Army affiliate research center on a program called Brave Mind, which was an Army project to treat veterans with post-traumatic stress disorder using virtual reality exposure therapy, basically putting them into virtual reality environments that would set off their symptoms, and then under the guidance of a licensed therapist who was also in the simulation, they could be taught coping skills that would help them with their dependency on medication and medical aid.

It was a really fantastic program. I wasn't doing anything important on it. I was just a lab technician, a cable monkey. But I got a lot of exposure to both the virtual reality technology side, but also how broken defense procurement was, how slow it was, how old a lot of the technology was, how the incentives were totally misaligned.

Ever since then, I'd always wanted to make a contribution to national security if I could. It just took a few years for the right set of circumstances to come up. The defense industry in America is fundamentally broken. Before even getting into the specific problems of our defense industry, the United States has the strongest commercial artificial intelligence industry in the world, followed closely by China.

But at the same time, the United States military and the prime contractors that dominate the military industrial complex have none of the right tools, talent, or incentives to apply autonomy to the systems they do. There's no reason to save costs because they don't get paid for making things that work.

They get paid for doing work. And in a world where you get more prestige and more money by having more people working on bigger things, there's no reason to use autonomy to reduce costs and increase capability. The US military is well behind the Chinese People's Liberation Army in the implementation of artificial intelligence.

There's better AI in John Deere tractors than there is in any US military vehicle. There's better computer vision in the Snapchat app on your phone than any system that the US Department of Defense has deployed. And other countries are taking notice of this. Countries like Russia and China. Do not want to compete with us toe to toe with the tools that we have.

People will make fun of China and say, "Oh, they don't have a blue water navy. They only have one aircraft carrier coming up on two. They could never fight us." The reality is that that's not where they're going to fight us. They're going to arm proxies or if they engage directly, they're going to use technologies that give them an asymmetrical advantage in the areas where we are the least competent.

These are the areas where they are putting a lot of their resources. The reason that Vladimir Putin is saying that the ruler of the world is going to be the ruler of the world is because he thinks that he's going to lose at this. It's because he thinks that that is one of the only ways that they're going to be able to get the best of us.

Now the people who are building technology for our military, the large defense primes, I won't name any names because I don't want to wrestle too many feathers in that area. You never know who's in the room. But the people who are building the technology for the United States military, the people who spend all their time do not have access to the best talent.

They do not have access to the people. They are not the people who are going to be able to do the best job. They are not the people who are going to be able to do the best job. They are not the people who are going to be able to do the best job.

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They are not the people who are going to be able to do the best job. They are not the people who are going to be able to do the best job. They invested in me while Jason was trying to poison my career and keep me on the ground. Thank God he failed.

Thank God for investors who ignore him and people like him. The market conditions suggest there are going to be a lot of founders, hopefully none of the people in this room, losing their startups over the next year or so. And I pray that they get a second chance like I did.

I pray they aren't deterred from working on important but unpopular problems. I pray that they will successfully claw their way back to success. That they aren't deterred from working on things that really matter. I pray that they manage to do this despite the inevitably stupid and hot takes. Sorry, inevitably stupid and spiteful hot takes.

That Jason, his associates, and the many people like him who make money spewing bullshit are certainly going to be putting out there. Amen. Thank you. *crowd cheers* Well done! Join us! *crowd cheers* Uh... *laughter* Nice talk. Thank you. Great to meet you in person! *laughter* Jason, what lessons have we learned here today?

*laughter* Well, I mean, I guess... We were talking backstage and Jason's like, "Oh, you know, I had to do so much to get this guy here because I think he hates me." And this was before this shit happened. And I was like, "Well, maybe you shouldn't talk shit about people." *laughter* Well, the good thing is I was able to make it to this stage to say this.

Most of the people that you've gone after this way will never have that opportunity. Oh, no, no, no, no. Because they won't start a second unicorn. I'm only here because I managed to claw my way back. And remember, this is personal because it's not just you. It's you. You're one of the most influential, certainly.

But it's you and really a small cadre of people that, by attacking me ceaselessly, made it impossible for me to continue my tenure at Oculus. I'm really lucky I clawed my way back because that's exceedingly rare for a company to do... What? A person to do that. *crowd cheers* Okay.

*crowd cheers* What? I was hoping to talk about your new thing, but I guess since we have no choice but go here, what happened at Facebook? And maybe you can just explain that and what I got wrong about what happened. Well, it's not just what's wrong. This is actually why I went out of my way.

There's actually a lot of lies you told in Spread and your co-hosts and your guests. But I'm not even talking about those. The things that I listed, you'll notice these aren't material accusations. These are just personal attacks you've made on my character. These are just things you've said about me personally as a founder and entrepreneur.

Vicious personal attacks. Separately, there's all of the lies that you've said about how Oculus didn't have any differentiated technology. It was totally commoditized. Anybody could have done it. It really was just the right thing at the right time. We could spend all day talking about why these aren't true.

But the real reason that it became untenable for me and the real reason that I'm not in the VR industry is because people like you were enabling those lies and then being vicious about it and attacking me personally. It became clear I couldn't be a representative in an industry where people are going to treat me like that, fairly or not.

Imagine doing a podcast with him. What's that? Imagine doing a podcast with him. I guess if you have no choice but to keep, I'll just ask you the same question. Do you want us to just describe what Palmer's talking about? Can I try my best? No, no, no. Hold on.

What happened? Because my memory of the events... You just read all the things he said. Right, but what were we talking about at the time? There was a lot of controversy at Facebook about some donations, anonymous accounts, things you said. That wasn't one thing. That was over the course of years.

That was just a small sampling. I had to really find a small sample. You can't ever do it again. But I'll tell you basically what happened. Why were you fired from Facebook? What was the controversy there? Because that's what I was commenting on in this. Well, no. Some of those were after I was fired and you were saying it was great that I was fired.

Actually, by the way, one of your co-hosts said, on your show, that they're glad I got fired from my politics. And that line is mysteriously missing from your transcripts, by the way. But we don't edit any of the things. And I didn't have a co-host at the time. It was probably just one of the news reporters who came on.

We would interview them. But there was a lot of controversy. Right. I could be slightly wrong there. Here's what happened. I gave $9,000 to a group that ran a single anti-Hillary Clinton billboard. That was actually the extent of it. And then a huge number of people in the tech influencer space, the social media talking heads in media, they started saying Palmer Luckey is this terrible person.

Sorry, just to be clear. So you made a donation and it was on an FEC filing somewhere. Somebody pulled it out and then basically said... Like to a PAC or something? So it was to a 501 , I believe, who used that for their political harm. But it was public.

It was public filing, yeah. And I actually ended up giving a quote to a reporter about it. So it wasn't something that people understood what it was. But then a bunch of people just lied. They said Palmer Luckey was funding PACs. People who are attacking Hillary Clinton supporters online.

There were a lot of people who I think were looking for a scapegoat to kind of be the right wing reaction to correct the record, which actually was paying people to attack Trump supporters online. Why did Zuck fire you? What's that? Why did Zuck fire you? Oh, no, Zuck didn't fire me.

He's way above all that stuff. Why did Facebook fire you? There's a lot of reasons. I always had good performance reviews. But what it really boiled down to was this. This is my favorite talk by far. What it really boils down to is this. It was clear that there were a lot of people in the media and in the tech industry who were going to continue attacking me.

We hoped it would blow over. But they kept attacking me for months and months and months and months. I was put on leave for six months. I don't know if you know that. Sorry, this is all on the heels of this one political donation. Correct. $9,000. Yes. And so on the heels of that, the hope was that it would go away.

Now, I think here's the real problem. I think if Trump had lost, people could have said, oh, well, you know, he's just one of those eccentrics, impact, no impact. He's a loser. Loser, but whatever. Trump winning is, I think, what made it untenable. Because people continued to attack me, not for the controversy.

The $9,000 donation was the reason you were fired. Just for supporting Trump. As you know, these things are very complex. But more or less, yes. I mean, there's a direct causal line from that to me being put on leave to me not being allowed to come back and then pushed out.

We talk a lot about this on the pod on mob behavior. And I think Marc Andreessen said the smartest thing I've read on Twitter in the year. I retweeted it and then I took it away. And I think he pointed out that it feels safer to be in the mob than to not be in the mob.

Well, it always is. Because when you're in the mob, you're part of the growth. You're part of the group. But you also get to attack. And it's safe to attack when you're in the group. And I think, by the way, what you did there, one of the things I will highlight, irregardless of the content and the thing, that was very brave.

And we don't see a lot of bravery nowadays. And I don't mean that to disparage Jason. But that sort of behavior where you stand up and you say something that will be highly controversial and go against the mob and against the tide and maybe piss off an entire room is something that we don't see a lot of.

And I think that that level of bravery is also what's missing going back to the mid-20th century, which allowed us to do all the things you highlighted as a country last century that we're not doing anymore. I appreciate your bravery more than anything. Thank you. But look, I don't know about the specifics with J-Cal, but it certainly seems that there's a lot of this.

We talk about this with Brian Armstrong standing up at Coinbase and all the stuff that's gone on that we think, I would argue, has probably made Twitter a highly complacent place. Everyone wants to be, you know, you don't want to stand up and you don't want to make that change and you don't want to be brave and you want to be part of the mob, of the crowd attacking the right.

Well, people see what happens. What happened to me has, like, this is, I can't back this up, obviously, this is getting into personal anecdote, which is never a good way to support any idea, but I know a lot of people who remain at Facebook. And they will not say anything and they will not donate to any politician who's left of Bernie.

Because they saw what happened to me and they've explicitly said, "I saw what happened to you." Because remember, it wasn't just the public. It was the internal reaction where people were saying, "Oh my God, I will not work for a Trump supporter. This is terrible." I mean, actually, one great example.

Andrew Bosworth, he ran ads at Facebook for 14 years. He was put in after my departure as the head of Oculus and he was the guy who was putting things on social media like, I think the exact wording was, "If you support Donald Trump because you don't like Hillary Clinton, you are a shitty human being." And he's the person who's allowed to lead Oculus now.

It's not a problem of being aggressive. It's being on the right side. It's being on the right side of the politics. And so there's a lot of people where they're not going to say anything because they see what happens to me. Now, I've... Sax is loving this. When I hear somebody disagree with, I'll let you guys know.

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