- In terms of deep work and getting a little bit back to kind of practical steps towards deep work, I also have to ask you 'cause I didn't earlier, when you are on your laptop in your library with your fireplace and these books, it's a beautiful image, actually, that you've drawn for us in our minds, is the Wi-Fi connection to your computer activated or are you offline?

- It's connected because it doesn't really matter to me, you know, because what's drawing my attention? I mean, the most important decision I think I made, technically speaking, to be a cognitive worker is the lack of social media. Like, I think we underestimate the degree to which our problem with digital distraction is not the internet, it's not our phones, it is specific products and services that are engineered at great expense to pull you back to 'em.

When you take that away, the internet's not that interesting. Like, I don't have a cycle of sites to go to. You know, I can check my email, but I don't really know where else to go. I mean, I could go to the New York Times, I guess, but then you've seen the articles, right?

They change it once a day. There's just not much, I've set things up, so there's not much that's that interesting to me. - We've all heard of FOMO, fear of missing out. I feel like there's the other thing, which is fear of missing something bad, right? Sort of like an anxiety, a more primitive anxiety within us that if we are not engaged on social media or looking at our phone often or texting often, that it's not that we'll miss the party, we'll miss the emergency.

You don't seem to suffer from those kind of everyday ills. - Yeah, I mean, it doesn't happen that much. I mean, I have a phone, you know. - A standard. - No, I mean, I have my phone. I guess if I'm working away from it, yeah, I guess it's true if there was an emergency.

But this was the case for a very long time, right? We didn't have smartphones till really relatively recently. This is, you know, 15 years ago. So we were just used to this until yesterday, essentially, that there's just periods of time where you're out of touch. Like you're at a restaurant with someone, you're out of touch until you get back to your office.

Like we were okay. You know, we weren't plagued by emergencies that led to disastrous results because we couldn't hear about it, right? Then you go to the movies, like you're out of touch, right? And be a couple hours, so you're in touch again. And so I don't, you know, it's not something that's affected me as much.

So maybe I'm working without my phone nearby. A lot of people have this response. They begin sort of catastrophizing. Like what if this happens or this or that? And I'm thinking, you know, I survived before that. My parents survived without that. My grandparents survived without that. I don't worry about it as much, you know?

And some of this maybe is just, this doesn't upset people as much as it used to. The fact I don't use a lot of these apps or have my phone. But it really does upset people, right? There's, well, what about this? What about that? What about this? And I don't know how much of this is just maybe I'm oblivious and how much of this is people back sliding explanation for why they do need their phone, why they do need to look at all the time.

But I get a lot of it. - Yeah, well, maybe they're upset and you don't know because you're not looking at your phone. - That's right. Hey, I'll tell you what, that's a blessing. Not knowing how upset people are at you. Yeah, it's a blessing as a semi-public figure.

I'll tell you that. - Yeah, I can comment on that, but I won't. I am on social media and I do enjoy it. I sort of got started posting on Instagram and then expanded to other platforms, including the podcast. But there's a threshold beyond which it becomes counterproductive for sure.

I think there's information there, like questions that people ask are often informative. It's sort of like ending a class and asking, are there any questions? Sometimes the comments that people bring back are truly informative towards both where they might have some misunderstanding, but also sometimes some really terrific ideas.

So there's that, but I completely agree that this is a very precarious space. And I'll just relay a quick anecdote. Years ago, I gave a quick lecture down at Santa Clara University, South of Stanford. And I was talking about this issue. I recommended your book and a student came up afterwards and he said, "You don't get it." At that time I was in my early forties.

He said, "You don't get it. You grew up without social media and the phone. And so you've adopted it into your life, but we grew up with it. And when my phone," he's speaking for himself and the first person, "When my phone loses power, I feel a physical drain within my body.

And when it comes back on, I feel a lift within my body." So I'd love your thoughts on whether or not you think the phone and perhaps social media as well are in some ways an extension of our brain. It's almost like another cortical area that contains all this information.

It's a version of us. This gets into notions of AI that we can talk about as well. I know you're involved in AI and writing about AI. But to me, when the phone is used in that way, it really is almost like a piece of neural machinery of sorts.

- Yeah, I mean, there's two ways of looking at it. Yeah, so there is the sort of cyborg image, I suppose, right? Like you're extending, you're plugging into this new sphere. Like you have this sort of digital network extension of information and what's going on. There's also the much more pessimistic view, which is no, no, that feeling is the feeling of a moderate behavioral addiction, right?

So you'll hear the same thing from a gambler. I really, when I'm away from being able to play, right, to make my bets or do whatever, like I feel really, I feel not myself. And then when I'm around it and I can play and make some bets, play some poker, whatever it is.

- The feeling of the chips. - I feel myself, that chips, right? Like they would say, so it could be, both of these things could be true. I think the moderate behavioral addiction side is more true than a lot of us want to admit, actually. Like it does feel bad because moderate behavioral addictions build these feedback response loops.

And then you get the dopamine system going, when the anticipation. Because what's on there is things that have been engineered that you're gonna get this sort of highly engaging stimuli. And then you see the deliverance of that stimuli, right? This really nice piece of glass on a piece of metal, I'm gonna press this sort of carefully, this icon whose colors have been chosen because we know it's gonna hit various parts of our neural alert systems to be as engaging as possible.

And I'm gonna see something in there that's gonna generate some sort of emotional response. So of course, when you see that thing sitting there, you wanna use it. And when you can't, it's a stymie dopamine response. You're like, this is not good, I'm uncomfortable. And I think that's a big part of it as well.

Because I've had this argument with some people. And by the way, I see both sides of this. Like there are great advantages to what people are doing with these tools. It's just that it's all mixed up with all these disadvantages. And it becomes very difficult. It's like the alcohol in the neighborhood bar is too potent.

And people are going there to socialize and they're coming home at three in the morning, passing out, it's like the balance is off. Not that there's not something good there, but the balance is off. So it becomes pretty difficult to navigate. So I think some of that's what's going on, especially with the younger generation that was raised on it.

Which is why, by the way, I think the cultural norms are gonna change around this. I think we're gonna think about unrestricted internet usage not as something that we just sort of bequeath on youth as they become 10 years old, but something that we're actually much more careful about.

Probably something that's gonna be post-pubescent is gonna make a lot more sense once you've had more brain development, once you've had more social entrenchment, you sort of understand your identity, et cetera. Because we recognize the flip side of plugging this thing into your brain is, yeah, you have access to more information, but it also pumps that into your brain.

So I don't know, I lean a little bit heavier towards the pessimistic read because I know too many people because of my books who've really reduced the impact of these things in their lives. And they don't, on the far side of that transformation, they don't typically report a great impoverishment and experience.

They don't report, I'm less mentally agile, the information at my fingertips is less, I'm missing out on life. There's typically this coming out of the fog on the other side of it where they're like, oh, this is fine. So I'm a little bit suspicious about exactly what this mechanism is.

- I think you're right about the moderate behavioral addiction piece. Years ago, when I was starting my lab, I had grants to write and I found the phone to be pretty intrusive for that process. So I used to give the phone to somebody in my lab and announced to everyone in my lab that if I asked for it back prior to 5 p.m.

that day, I would give everyone in the lab, I think it was a hundred dollar bill. My lab was pretty big at the time. As a junior professor, they did not do not, sorry, academic institutions not to be named, pay us very much despite what people might think. And it was difficult several times throughout the day or more.

I was like, ah, I really want to look at that thing. But at the end of the day, I'll tell you that no one got paid. I got my phone back. But it's wonderful the amount of work that you can get done when that thing is out of the room.

- I mean, it's my superpower, right? I don't work that hard in the sense that I don't do long hours. Like I'm not constitutionally suited for long hours. This was never my thing. My brain tires, right? I mean, I'm good for four, four and a half good hours a day of actually producing good stuff with my brain, probably max.

But you know, I don't use my phone that much. I don't use the internet that much. And I prioritize it and a lot just gets done. It just sort of piles up over time, you know? And there's a sense of like, you must be burning the midnight oil and you have all these things going on.

But again, people I think underestimate. And it's not the underestimate the impact of this. It's not just the accumulation of time you spend looking on your phone. It's also this network switching cost, right? Because like the phone is very good at inducing a network switch. And that's an expensive, time-consuming, energy-consuming neuronal operation.

- Task switching. - I'm gonna switch my focus of attention from this to that. - Thank you for tuning into the Huberman Lab Clips channel. If you enjoyed the clip that you just viewed, please check out the full length episode by clicking here.