Saints or sinners? How do we speak of Christians collectively? It's a question many of you have asked over the years, and Mark most recently. And we get to that question today. Mark writes this. "Hello, Pastor John. As a pastor and preacher, I pursue the truth of God in His Word.

Every Sunday I strive to welcome and embrace the spiritual burden of speaking His truth and not my own opinion, knowing that His Word alone has the power to save us from the consequences of our sinful rebellion against a holy God. In light of this truth, I was recently challenged about my use of the word "sinner" to collectively speak of God's people.

Can we who are saved by grace through faith still be called sinners, or is it more biblical to use the word "saint"? Paul calls himself the foremost of sinners in 1 Timothy 1, 15, 16, and James speaks of wayward believers who are brought back into the church body as sinners in James 5, 19-20.

Yet there are many places throughout Scripture which refer to God's people as saints. So should God's collective people be primarily referred to as saints or as sinners? Well, first, a clarification in the way Mark poses the question. He cites Paul as saying, "I'm the foremost of sinners," but in the context, I don't think Paul means that now, as a Christian, he's the foremost.

I think he means that that was true of me when God saved me because he supports it with the statement in verse 13 of 1 Timothy 1, "I was a blasphemer, persecutor, insolent opponent." He's not that anymore. However, we need to be careful because the fact that he uses the present tense, "I am the foremost," I think means I remain, among all people, the least likely candidate to have received salvation because of my former life.

But he does not mean that he is living as the foremost of sinners right now. But when Mark refers to James 5:19-20, he's right that James calls this backsliding Christian a sinner. He says, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth," so anyone among you, you Christians, "wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins." So, yes, that is right.

James 5 does use the word for Christians. And, of course, we know from 1 John 1, verses 8-10, that there's no such thing as a Christian in this life who does not sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar and his truth is not in us. And we know from Romans 7 that Paul treats himself, while a Christian, and we know from Romans 7 that Paul treats himself, while a Christian, as one who does some sins that he hates.

And Jesus taught us to pray daily, "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." And the reason I say daily is because the immediately preceding request in the Lord's Prayer is, "Give us this day our daily bread." We need daily bread. We need daily forgiveness. So, there's no thought of there being any sinless Christian in this life.

Agreed. So, should I stop right there? End of answer. There you have it. Christians are called sinners. We are still sinners. Mark asks, "Can we who are saved by grace through faith still be called sinners?" Answer, "Yes." End of question. Next question, Tony. No, we should not stop there.

We dare not stop there because that does not get at the heart of the matter. Paul calls Christians saints, that is, holy ones, consecrated ones, set-apart ones, being made holy ones, saints, saved, set-apart for God, walking in the light. He calls Christians saints 40 times in his letters, but he virtually never uses the noun "sinner" to describe Christians.

You might think there's one or two exceptions. I would argue probably not. At any rate, 40 to almost nothing. Why would that be? I think that's behind Mark's question. That's the issue. Why would that be? Since we all sin. In fact, in Romans 5:8, Paul says, "God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, we were still sinners, Christ died for us." What does that mean?

While we were still sinners? It means that Paul has a way of understanding "sinner" that no longer applies to us. That's what it means. This is what gets Mark going. This is why his question is so relevant, so important. So we need to be careful here. We need to be thoughtful.

We don't want to be superficial and say, "Whoa, the Bible says we always sin. A person who sins is a sinner, so it's right to call Christians sinners." Well, it's not that simple for two reasons. One, saying someone sins and saying they're a sinner may not mean exactly the same thing.

Would you call yourself a liar? Because sometimes you lie. The connotation is not quite the same. Or here's the other reason. It's not simple. Christians really do have a different essential identity now that we're saved. Now that we're saved, we really are new creatures in Christ. Sinner is not our essential identity any longer in Christ.

That's the nub of the matter. Consider this remarkable statement in 1 Corinthians 5.7. "Cleanse out the old leaven, yeast." "Cleanse out the old yeast." He's using this for a picture of sin. "Cleanse out the old yeast, that you may be a new lump of dough as you really are unleavened." For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.

Unleavened. Really unleavened. In other words, because of Christ's death for us, we are in our most essential identity unleavened. That is, sinless. And the unique thing about Christian morality, Christian ethics, is that we now fight against our sin, really fight against our own sinning, because it's gone. It's not there.

"Cleanse out the old sin, because you're sinless." That's the mystery of Christian life. "Cleanse out the old sin." "Kill sin in your life," Romans 8.13. "Because you're sinless." That's who you are. The fight against our ongoing sinning is the evidence that we are in Christ and in him without sin, in our inmost essential identity.

Let me say that again. The fight against, the real, living, daily fight, is evidence. That's what pastors look for in their people. "I'm looking for evidence that you're a Christian." And the evidence is that you're in Christ, and if you're in Christ, you're without sin. So fighting sin is the evidence that you are without sin.

In Colossians 3.9, Paul put it like this, "Do not lie to one another." So kill that. Get rid of that sin. Don't do that. Confess it. Repent. Turn away. If you do that, don't do that. Why? Seeing that you have put off the old self, the old identity, the old you.

You've put it off. It's dead. It's crucified with Christ, with its practices. And you've put on the new self, new identity, new you, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. You have put off the old self, namely the self that was in its essential identity a sinner.

That's what you've put off. That self has died with Christ. Now you are, you are, capital A-R-E, a new self. Put it on. Put on what you are. That is, cleanse out the old leaven because you are unleavened. Specifically, he says, don't lie to one another. You are without sin.

You are not liars. So don't lie. So don't sin. That's the glorious paradox of the Christian life. And I think that is why Paul virtually never uses the noun "sinner" to describe the Christian. Because it sounds like a deep identity marker. And so it would not be true. Paul gives plenty of evidence that Christians still sin.

We battle sin. Put it to death. Romans 8.13. But he makes plain that's not who we are. And listen to Colossians 3.12. Put on then as God's chosen, holy, loved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, patience, forgiving one another as the Lord has forgiven you. This is Paul's typical way of thinking.

You are chosen. You are holy. You are loved. So put this identity on and treat each other with love in Christ. So what's the answer then? Pastors. That's how this all started with the question of trying to be faithful to shepherd a people. Pastors, absorb, absorb this New Testament way of reckoning with two realities.

One, the ongoing sin in the lives of your people. It's real. Two, their deepest identity as chosen, holy, and loved. That's real. Then teach them, one, who they are, and two, what they're going to have to deal with and how they relate to each other. Speak to them according to this reality.

Amen. 40 to almost nothing. Thank you for the stat and for the summary of Paul here, Pastor John. It's a great question, Mark. Thank you for sending it in to us. And thank you for joining us today. You can ask a question of your own or search our growing archive or subscribe to the podcast all at AskPastorJohn.com.

Well, Monday, we look at the shipwrecked faith once again. Sometimes when we talk about shipwrecking the faith, we assume that this is a term of final undoing, like there's no hope for return, an unpardonable state. And that's actually not the case, as we will also see from the life and writings of the Apostle Paul, a man who himself survived at least four shipwrecks in his lifetime, at the very least four shipwrecks.

And there's a correlation there, and Pastor John will explain it next time. I'm your host, Tony Reinke. We'll see you back here on Monday.