Historian Michael Reeves joins us again from the UK, filling in this week for John Piper. Michael, praying to Mary is a striking phenomenon in the Roman Catholic Church, striking to us as Protestants. Even in the most recent catechism, the Vatican continues to spell out the value and importance of liturgies and feasts and prayers dedicated to Mary.

So how did this practice develop over time? Why do Catholics pray to Mary? Okay, there are really two parts to the story. And the first part starts very well, that from the very earliest days, the Church and its theologians have taken Paul's vision in Romans 5 of the two men, Adam and Christ, who determine the destiny of all people to be a very strong, dominant image in salvation.

There are two men, Adam and Christ, and we all depend on one of them for our salvation. In Adam, we all fell. In Christ, those who are united to him are saved. Now, that became such a strong feature in the theology of the early Church that people began to think, what's Eve's place in this?

It wasn't just Adam who fell, it was Eve who fell as well. So they began to see a man and a woman are the origin of our damnation, and to see a nice tidiness as there's a first Adam and a last Adam, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15.

So some theologians started to play with the idea there was a first Eve and a last Eve who'd be Mary. And this began to develop very, very slowly into the idea that somehow Mary might be a co-partner in the work of salvation. And so Pope John Paul II, he was a believer in Mary as co-redemptrix, a redeemer alongside Christ, which of course goes directly against what you read in Acts 4.12, that there is one name under heaven by which all men may be saved, Jesus Christ.

But that was a theological trajectory. It didn't do an awful lot popularly for praying to Mary until something else happened. So from the year 500 to 1500 or so, there was for various reasons a tragic decline in the knowledge of God. The gospel became increasingly cloistered, knowledge of it became restricted to monasteries, people weren't being well taught.

And as the knowledge of God declined, so Christ receded into heaven. People felt they simply couldn't approach him, they didn't know of him as a saviour. And so that being the case, if you can't approach Christ as a compassionate and faithful high priest who will intercede for us, we need mediators between us and Christ himself.

So the thought grew, well, if I can't approach Christ, I'll approach his mum who'll put in a good word for me to Christ. And so people would begin to pray to Mary who would pray to Christ who'd intercede with the Father. This actually started getting even stronger as Mary herself started acquiring this very exalted position as the Queen of Heaven.

And so people thought I should pray to her mother to put in a good word with her who put in a good word with Jesus. And so the cult of St Anne began, Anne being the mother of Mary. And if you read the story of Martin Luther, you see this time when he's a young man, a law student, and he's knocked to the ground by a lightning bolt, the exclamation that comes out of his mouth is "St Anne, help me, I'll become a monk." And Luther had never up to that age dared pray to God himself.

He would only pray to saints, mediators between us and Christ. And the other thing I think we see with Luther is because Luther felt he couldn't love God, indeed, Luther said, "I hated the righteous God who condemned sinners." Luther, you have to place your heart and your affection somewhere on someone who appears lovely.

And since Christ didn't appear lovely, what Luther said he and his fellow monks did is they placed their affections elsewhere on Mary and on the saints because Mary, this mother figure, seemed to have a compassion that Jesus didn't. And that I think explains why if you talk, say, to an Italian Roman Catholic today, you'll often get a strong sense of how much it's not just that Mary is an important figure for them, but they love her, that there's a real warmth of affection.

And I think that, again, betrays that view that Christ is not a compassionate and faithful high priest, therefore you need someone who will do that job for him. And so Hebrews 4, 14 to 16 would be the theological response you would give to someone who is praying to Mary.

I think that's absolutely right because if I was simply to be disrespectful towards Mary, that's not going to be a productive way forward. But to say, "All the compassion and the redemption that you're looking for in Mary, a better is found in Christ. I'm not taking away anything from you.

I'm offering you a better gospel, a truer, more gracious God." Yes, amen. Thank you, Michael. Michael is the author of several books, including The Unquenchable Flame, Discovering the Heart of the Reformation, and the book Delighting in the Trinity, one of my favorite books of 2012. He lives in the UK and currently serves as director of the online theology website, UnionTheology.org.

And he serves as the senior lecturer at Wales Evangelical School of Theology. So how do we pursue joy? We're all seeking joy. Every one of us are seeking joy. We're driven by the pursuit of it. So where is true, abiding, eternal joy to be found? I'll ask Dr. Reeves that very question tomorrow.

I'm your host Tony Reinke. Thanks for listening to the Ask Pastor John Podcast.