hey everybody hey everybody welcome to the all in podcast with us today again the queen of quinoa david friedberg david sachs the rain man himself and of course the dictator here chamath and let's get ready it's it's time chamath and sax here it comes everybody sax is ready in the red corner representing richard nixon ronald reagan and rich people everywhere david the rain man sax somebody's got a new corner representing lbj underserved the forgotten the underdogs the woke left chamath paulie uh and and i will also be representing john f kennedy who said arising who said a rising tide lifts all boat and maybe even some bill clinton bill clinton bill clinton i was gonna say don't forget the champion of the left and the right yeah bill clinton did a great job he ended he ended the welfare state all right so here we go folks um in in show housekeeping we do need to point out that uh we we've been running some polls the fans of the show have been running polls and i i don't even know why i'm bringing this up because i got barbecued in them but we have three questions and we're going to do a little bit of a show on that and we're going to do a little bit of a show on that and we're going to do a little bit of a show on that and we're going to do a little bit of a show on that and we're going to do a little bit of a show on that and we're going to do a little bit of a show on that and we're going to do a little bit of a show on that and we're going to do a little bit of a show on that but we have three polls we need to share with but we have three polls we need to share with but we have three polls we need to share with the audience from twitter the first is if you could the audience from twitter the first is if you could the audience from twitter the first is if you could have just one of the all-in pod besties have just one of the all-in pod besties have just one of the all-in pod besties to mentor you and your startup growth to mentor you and your startup growth to mentor you and your startup growth who would it be and why looks like rain man who would it be and why looks like rain man who would it be and why looks like rain man you ran away with that one with 39 you ran away with that one with 39 you ran away with that one with 39 the dictator with 34 queen of kinwa coming the dictator with 34 queen of kinwa coming the dictator with 34 queen of kinwa coming at a 17 and uber's their fourth investor at a 17 and uber's their fourth investor at a 17 and uber's their fourth investor came in with the measly eight percent i came in with the measly eight percent i came in with the measly eight percent i will tell you this is this is why 83 will tell you this is this is why 83 will tell you this is this is why 83 percent of startups fail they choose the percent of startups fail they choose the percent of startups fail they choose the wrong mentor wrong mentor wrong mentor perfect perfect perfect so i was i was proud to win this one but so i was i was proud to win this one but so i was i was proud to win this one but the truth is so chamath was slightly the truth is so chamath was slightly the truth is so chamath was slightly ahead and then i put my thumb on the ahead and then i put my thumb on the ahead and then i put my thumb on the scale by retweeting the poll because scale by retweeting the poll because scale by retweeting the poll because obviously my followers are more likely obviously my followers are more likely obviously my followers are more likely to vote for me yes so then i shot ahead to vote for me yes so then i shot ahead to vote for me yes so then i shot ahead and i kept real quiet because i didn't and i kept real quiet because i didn't and i kept real quiet because i didn't want chamath want chamath want chamath retweeting it to his 1.2 million retweeting it to his 1.2 million retweeting it to his 1.2 million followers and if he had done that he followers and if he had done that he followers and if he had done that he probably would have blown me out of the probably would have blown me out of the probably would have blown me out of the water but i kept real quiet until the water but i kept real quiet until the water but i kept real quiet until the time elapsed and then i and then i time elapsed and then i and then i time elapsed and then i and then i shared it with the group shared it with the group shared it with the group nobody keeps a track of uh followers but nobody keeps a track of uh followers but nobody keeps a track of uh followers but uh it's actually closer to 1.5 the only person who knows your follower the only person who knows your follower the only person who knows your follower account better than you chamath is phil account better than you chamath is phil account better than you chamath is phil helmuth helmuth helmuth actually every morning phil help me actually every morning phil help me actually every morning phil help me subscribe uh subscribe uh subscribe uh subtracts his number of subscribers from subtracts his number of subscribers from subtracts his number of subscribers from yours to know the net all right second yours to know the net all right second yours to know the net all right second poll came up thanks matt for this by the poll came up thanks matt for this by the poll came up thanks matt for this by the way matt yarger no friend of mine way matt yarger no friend of mine way matt yarger no friend of mine all right per request let's do another all right per request let's do another all right per request let's do another poll and see the other side of this poll and see the other side of this poll and see the other side of this story if you could have just one of the story if you could have just one of the story if you could have just one of the all in pod besties moderate your podcast all in pod besties moderate your podcast all in pod besties moderate your podcast who would you choose who would you choose who would you choose and it turns out the dictator 31 and it turns out the dictator 31 and it turns out the dictator 31 to my 30.6 percent a full to my 30.6 percent a full to my 30.6 percent a full one percent more than me one percent more than me one percent more than me i came in second world's best wingman i came in second world's best wingman i came in second world's best wingman and rain man and rain man and rain man 21 queen of king 21 queen of king 21 queen of king 16 and then most importantly which 16 and then most importantly which 16 and then most importantly which bestie would you want in your on your bestie would you want in your on your bestie would you want in your on your side in a bar fight i will say it's side in a bar fight i will say it's side in a bar fight i will say it's chamath's smooth velvety voice that uh chamath's smooth velvety voice that uh chamath's smooth velvety voice that uh that ran away for him here that ran away for him here that ran away for him here thank you yes i think i think that no i thank you yes i think i think that no i thank you yes i think i think that no i think the audience is just trying to think the audience is just trying to think the audience is just trying to hurt jason hurt jason hurt jason they're just trying to hurt jason that they're just trying to hurt jason that they're just trying to hurt jason that was it that was it was it that was it that was it was it that was it that was it jason has heard he's inadequate by more jason has heard he's inadequate by more jason has heard he's inadequate by more than one percent for a long time oh it's i mean people usually it's oh it's i mean people usually it's oh it's i mean people usually it's measured in inches not percentages measured in inches not percentages measured in inches not percentages somebody was dunking on me on twitter somebody was dunking on me on twitter somebody was dunking on me on twitter and they're like you are the poorest of and they're like you are the poorest of and they're like you are the poorest of all your friends i was like that's the all your friends i was like that's the all your friends i was like that's the strategy strategy strategy always have more powerful and richer always have more powerful and richer always have more powerful and richer friends than you friends than you friends than you then you don't have to worry about then you don't have to worry about then you don't have to worry about picking up the check okay uh and then picking up the check okay uh and then picking up the check okay uh and then there was another interesting there was another interesting there was another interesting ai breakthrough this week wait did you ai breakthrough this week wait did you ai breakthrough this week wait did you talk about the bar fight what was the talk about the bar fight what was the talk about the bar fight what was the bomb curious oh the bar fight one hold bomb curious oh the bar fight one hold bomb curious oh the bar fight one hold on bomb curious oh the bar fight one hold on you're right i didn't get to that one uh you're right i didn't get to that one uh you're right i didn't get to that one uh the bar fight the bar fight the bar fight was oh here we go for some reason was oh here we go for some reason was oh here we go for some reason these morons seem to think that your these morons seem to think that your these morons seem to think that your stick legs are going to help them in a stick legs are going to help them in a stick legs are going to help them in a fight fight fight bro that's a bad i honestly i i need to bro that's a bad i honestly i i need to bro that's a bad i honestly i i need to correct this like that was maybe bad correct this like that was maybe bad correct this like that was maybe bad lighting or a bad camera honestly they're not they're guys guys honestly they're not they're guys guys honestly they're not they're guys guys guys guys guys honestly come on they are guys guys guys guys guys honestly come on they are guys guys guys guys guys honestly come on they are not as skinny as people seem not as skinny as people seem not as skinny as people seem to be railing and honestly i'm i'm happy to to be railing and honestly i'm i'm happy to to be railing and honestly i'm i'm happy to you know if if there's a standard way you know if if there's a standard way you know if if there's a standard way of measuring of measuring of measuring okay you know what jason if there's a okay you know what jason if there's a okay you know what jason if there's a standard way if standard way if somebody can tell us what is the somebody can tell us what is the somebody can tell us what is the standard way of measuring standard way of measuring standard way of measuring leg circumference i'm happy to submit my leg circumference i'm happy to submit leg circumference i'm happy to submit my my my measurements i don't think they're my my my measurements i don't think they're my my my measurements i don't think they're that skinny that skinny that skinny they're really really anorexic it's super they're really really anorexic it's super they're really really anorexic it's super disturbing thank you disturbing thank you disturbing thank you you got a lot going on up top i'm very you got a lot going on up top i'm very you got a lot going on up top i'm very proud of you but below the belt it's not proud of you but below the belt it's not proud of you but below the belt it's not true bro i work on my legs a lot you true bro i work on my legs a lot you true bro i work on my legs a lot you know it's it's it's keep working it's know it's it's it's it's it's keep working it's know it's it's it's it's it's keep working it's legs and abs to keep your back legs and abs to keep your back legs and abs to keep your back strong i will tell you guys one thing strong i will tell you guys one thing strong i will tell you guys one thing this this uh podcast will win in a poll this this uh podcast will win in a poll this this uh podcast will win in a poll is the hosts talk about themselves more is the hosts talk about themselves more is the hosts talk about themselves more than any other podcast on the internet we need to talk about each other in order to make fun of each other yeah this should be called the naval gaze podcast all right here we go let's go uh besties that you most wanted to fight queen of quinoa coming in dead last yeah i'm coming in at 17 rain man 32 and shamath i guess that thirst trap you tweeted got your 39 in that poll the other the other thing these polls is is why democracy doesn't work but go on too much i can i can hold my own in a physical altercation i think yeah i think you want chamath and i because i think sax is going to be under the table calling 9-1-1 and freeburg's going to try to talk it out and get just absolutely sucker punch like guys we don't really need to fight jason jason is the one that would smash the beer bottle create a shiv and say let's go i would i would have jason uh i would i would actually pick jason his number one if you were going to be in a bar fight jason certainly touts his taekwondo skills on more than one occasion he's clearly a good player but he's not a good player at all he's a good player at all he's a good player at all he's a good player at all he's claimed to be an expert in taekwondo can we claim to be an expert in taekwondo can we claim to be an expert in taekwondo can we pull up the video isn't there a video of you doing pull up the video isn't there a video of you doing pull up the video isn't there a video of you doing taekwondo where's the video of jason pushing taekwondo where's the video of jason pushing taekwondo where's the video of jason pushing hellmuth hellmuth hellmuth fake news video if you want to see jason fake news video if you want to see jason fake news video if you want to see jason and a grown man another grown 50 year old and a grown man another grown 50 year old and a grown man another grown 50 year old overweight man fighting we have video overweight man fighting we have video overweight man fighting we have video yeah yeah yeah well i that that one i don't know if we well i that that one i don't know if we well i that that one i don't know if we should show but nick you should should show but nick you should should show but nick you should definitely insert the image of jkal definitely insert the image of jkal definitely insert the image of jkal trying to do the taekwondo kick and it trying to do the taekwondo kick and it trying to do the taekwondo kick and it looks like he's about to have a looks like he's about to have a looks like he's about to have a herniated groin herniated groin herniated groin insert that picture yeah it was from my my 20s.

All right, let's start. So what do you got? What do we got this week? I guess that the topic we should get right to is inflation. This is a topic we've been talking about a whole bunch because we're printing a ton of money. Everybody seems to think the hedge against inflation is to buy Bitcoin, or do you put your money into equities?

And are we actually going to see things other than homes and education massively inflate? We've seen some anecdotal evidence of this. Tesla increased the price of their cars, used cars have gone up in price, which is a function of the lack of production of some cars during the pandemic.

So there might be a multitude of factors there. But just putting it out there, are we going to go are we going to face inflation that you know, goods and services are going to just go through the roof and cost? Or do we have enough efficiency in the system that the average consumer is not going to see massive inflation on the products and services they buy?

Coming out of the poison isn't the isn't the real issue that Chema says inflation is good. And he because it creates a quality and he thinks 1979 was a great year. I think we should go straight to that. Give a general discussion. Oh, let's let's go. I think we should go to Chamath to explain his tweet storm.

And then I'll respond. Okay, there. So I think David, you got unnecessarily emotional and personal that was not again, these these were things that I've learned from someone who I will say without betraying him is an extremely well respected person. And I think he's a very good person at an extremely well known institution that basically has helped make a lot of sort of, you know, capital allocators very smart about things and has made people a lot of money.

So I was relaying what I learned through him. So let me just relay that, again, and I'll just start with this. Whenever you have a dollar of income, you can do one of two things with that income, you either consume things, right, so you buy, you can save and you can put it into investments for the future, right, so consumption and investment.

The reality is that most people so the lower 60% of the income distribution, essentially spends above their income, right, the lowest actually spends at so $1 earned is $1 spent, and then the middle two because they have access to credit $1 earned, they spend about, you know, percentage points more than that, when you get to the richest 20% of the population, they're actually able to save and they save about 13 cents of every dollar, and they're able to invest in the future.

So consumption and investment, the reality is inflation comes through a volume of activity, right? So you as a rich person can go and buy one $100,000 necklace at Tiffany's, it doesn't move the needle for inflation. But when you know, 200,000 people buy $1,000 television that's felt in the economy, it moves.

So inflation comes because of gross tonnage of volume. So you need consumption. And by definition, what that does is it pushes consumption into those, you know, that 60 to 80% of people that are not the top 20%. So what it means is that, you know, you have a volume game of people buying things.

And when they buy more of those things, inflation goes up, how do they buy more things, they have more income because their propensity is to consume. So then you have to ask yourself, where is this incremental income coming from? And all he has observed, which I think is very credible is, we have the supernatural event in the pandemic, we've now started to print trillions of dollars of incremental consumption.

And that's going to start to lead to the most simple ways in which consumption manifests in inflation, which is via commodity prices. What does that mean? Let me state simply, a rich person lives in a well insulated house, drives an electric car, and eats fish. A less rich person, lives in a poorly insulated house, lives, you know, drives an SUV, and eats beef, beef versus fish as a simple example, it consumes 20 3050 100 times more input costs to generate that same pound of protein than a fish does.

It's just an example of showing how income distributions and the effects and the consumption patterns of large swaths of people drive different consumption behaviors which drive inflation. So all he was trying to represent to me was that idea, which is that we have printed trillions of dollars, we are creating artificial levels of consumption, that consumption will actually drive up commodity prices, commodity prices will actually drive up inflation.

Then what he told me was, the best analogy, again, it's not perfect, but it rhymes to the history is what actually happened in the 1970s. Which is that by having this sort of boundary condition, you have to ask yourself what will happen if inflation rips higher. And, you know, starting in the late 60s, through the 70s, that's kind of what you had a same kind of boundary can forget the way in which the money got to people, you know, in this case, it was a government check.

But in the late 60s, and early 70s, we had similar kinds of programs, we had Head Start, we have, you know, AmeriCorps, we had food stamps act, we had food stamps, we had the Social Security Act, all of these things were transfer payments. And when you put that much money into the hands of a large swath of people, consumption went up, commodity prices went up, inflation went up, it peaked in 1979.

But it also happened that when that happened, the gap between the rich and the poor was the lowest it had ever been. And so I thought that that was a really interesting thing to observe. Okay, Sachs, you were triggered, you were triggered by this. Well, I wasn't triggered, I just said it was Chamath's worst take ever.

And then it wasn't my take. It wasn't my take, David. No, no. Let me explain. Let me explain what's wrong with the take. I created a PowerPoint. So I pulled a Chamath. No, it's not boring. And Chamath has done it too. So don't don't even go there. I'm gonna do email you guys come and hit me up at the second half.

No, no, free. We're gonna keep the freeberg index high. So go ahead, Sachs, take us through the PowerPoint. What is what do you want? Okay, I'll keep this quick. Okay, so I've called the PowerPoint Chamath's worst take ever. David, it says right at the top of the disclaimer, here is something I learned today.

Why isn't my take? Well, you said you responded to me then saying that I didn't like facts. So that was your response. So I am proving I'm going to show you some facts. Okay. So first of all, let's ask the question was 1979 a good year? I don't think you can just cherry pick this one number.

I'm going to go back to the the Gini index and say that this was some sort of great year 1979 a severe recession begins which ultimately leads to negative point 3% GD growth in 1980. The word stagflation misery index become household terms. We had unemployment of 6% on its way to 7.2% in 1980.

We had a 13.3% in inflation rate. The prime rate for 30 year mortgage was 11.2%. Wow. Wow. Yeah, good luck trying to buy a house. We had long lines of the gas pump. There was an oil embargo. Do you guys remember the gas pump lines? I wasn't born yet, but go on.

Yeah, it was crazy. And then you know, Jimmy Carter declares a national crisis and confidence. This was the so called Malay speech. He was well on his way to becoming a one term president. So what this shows is David that you know, David, hold on that. No, no, let me just let me just do the takeaway.

So the takeaway is that you know, the Gini index says 1979 was a great year. And you know, the the issue is the reason it wasn't is because it's a lot easier to make everyone equally poor than ever than equally rich when the economy does poorly. Guess what the gap shrinks.

Then Margaret Thatcher had a great line about this. So long as the gap is smaller, they would rather have the poor be poor. That's a great video. Everyone should watch on her last speech to Parliament. Chamath posted this chart showing this was the percentage of wealth held by the top point 1%.

Chamath, we'll go to you next to explain one, two and three. But let me just point out, look at when else the Gini index was happening, the 1930s. The Great Depression did a great job creating relative equality by making everyone poor. So my point is, yeah, I understand there are these qualities, but you know what creates inequality, economic booms.

That's what creates inequality. What we should care about is not just inequality, but economic growth, real wage growth, poverty, how many people are below the poverty line and concentrations of power. So that's what we should be looking at, not just this Gini coefficient. Let me stop there. I've got other slides, but I'll stop there and let you respond.

Sax, go back one slide. The three points there were just interesting to me. Number one was LBJ and the war on poverty and all those social programs. Number two, and you spoke about this, but I don't think you're doing a full accurate assessment. What Carter's biggest mistake was, was he stopped the transfer payments.

Because LBJ started them, Nixon continued them, Carter stopped them. And I think it's important to frame— Explain what transfer payments are. What transfer payments are for people who don't understand. Well, it's basically like there are all kinds of ways to get money into the hands of individuals. We now talk about universal basic income.

That's a way of transferring money from the government and from systemic holders of capital to individuals. Food stamps was a way. The social security was a way. There's all kinds of different ways. Welfare. Welfare was a way until Clinton disassembled that. So I think that what we'll never know is what would have happened if Carter hadn't actually stopped those balance of payments.

And the key point is about what happened then afterwards in three. So you had this basically stopping by Carter. He didn't get to reap any of the benefits of it. Reagan comes in and says, "You know what? We're going to simplify the tax code. We're going to defund all kinds of stuff, including, for example, all the mental health defunding that he had already done in California that spewed people with mental health diseases." And then he says, "You know what?

We're going to put all these diseases onto the streets of San Francisco and Los Angeles." And that sort of continued. And then the real cataclysmic change on top of all of this, which sealed the fate of that trend line, happened in point number three, which is when George Bush in 2001 had this really seminal decision, which is he had the ability to block China from entering the WTO, and instead he let them in.

And he traded that for a vote on the Security Council. And when you think about what really happened there, you unleashed 1 billion people willing to do anything at a cheaper, faster, and better rate. You ushered in globalization. You ushered in the gutting of the middle class of America.

And you transferred all that wealth creation that could have happened in a more inefficient but in a balanced way that could have benefited Americans, and you shipped them abroad to China. So I think it's just interesting to note that basically since 1979, we've all been singing from the same playbook.

Yeah. And I think that maybe what we need to do is figure out whether we need to come back to this idea of shifting the balance of payments back into the hands of individual consumers. And all I'm saying is, without making a judgment, is when you look at what Biden has done just in the first 60 days, $1.9 trillion of stimulus and a proposed $3 trillion stimulus package were just— Infrastructure package.

Yeah. And then when you look at what Biden has done in the last three months into his presidency, and you forecast that forward, it feels like we're entering an era of spend, spend, spend. And that was an opinion of mine, which I believe is actually fairly accurate. I do think it will drive inflation.

I do think it will drive commodity prices. And I think on balance, I do think it will suppress the wealth creation of the rich. And I do think it will give folks that don't necessarily have investments the ability to make more in real income, which they will spend. that don't necessarily have investments, the ability to make more on real income, which they will spend?

Well, okay, just quickly. So I'm going to begin by agreeing with the part of Chamath's response that I agree with, which is what happened around 2000, 2001, which killed wage growth for the average worker. Chamath is right about that. But it wasn't just George W. Bush, it was a bipartisan disaster.

In 2000, Bill Clinton pushes Congress to approve the US-China trade agreement and gave them full access to the WTO. This was basically temporary MFN. And look at what he said. He said, economically, this agreement is the equivalent of a one-way street. It requires China to open its markets to us in new ways.

And it turned out to be a one-way street the other way. And then he also said that for the first time, our companies will be able to sell and distribute products in China made by workers here in America without being forced to relocate manufacturing to China. We'll be able to export products without exporting jobs.

Well, gee, the exact opposite. It happened. And then what happens in 2001 is Bush makes this situation permanent. He grants what's called permanent normal trade relations, which is basically MFN status in perpetuity to China, granting them full access to our markets. And Chamath is right that that devastated the average worker because all of a sudden, they're being forced to compete with foreign labor that's potentially making $2 a day and is not subject to the same labor laws and environmental laws as workers.

And the U.S. are so I agree with Chamath about what happened then. But I got to go back and clean up this view of what happened between 1980 and 2000, because that's where I think we have this disagreement. Let's talk about the China thing for a second. Yeah. We made a mistake there.

We got hoodwinked. We don't have access to their market. I think it would be good to pause for a second and say, okay, we tried this experiment for 20 years. There was some good that came out of it. Our companies were able to grow and become the dominant players in the world like Apple, but an Amazon, right, we did capture a lot of this value.

And a lot of people came out of poverty in China, I guess on the margins, that's a good thing we can all agree. But it's a communist country. And we basically enabled a communist country to become essentially, you know, our counterparty in running the planet and in our leadership positions on the planet.

What do we do now in terms of unwinding this? Is there a way to roll this back? Or do we just mute it from this point forward? And how does it become a communist? How does it become a two way street? Or is that just not even possible, as we've seen with the NBA, and some other companies, Twitter, Google, just not being allowed to even operate in China?

Who's we? America, United States, the United States, I mean, US citizens, US companies, global companies. I mean, yeah, you know, I think that the challenge is your your framework, right? Guys, I think I think there's one big thing you're forgetting in 2001, which is, I think that Bush actually traded away access to the WTO, so that they could guarantee China's vote when he wanted to vote.

He wanted to go to war with Iraq, which happened in 2003. Okay, well, two dumb decisions that got worse by being put together. All I'm saying is it was a trade, it was a trade, he traded, he traded access to he traded access to the WTO in return for their support for a UN resolution to go to war with Iraq.

Look, I you know, you said that I was defending the Republican point of view. I'm not I'll be the first to say that George W. Bush was his presidency was a disaster. I think it'll go down as one of the worst. He got us into all these stupid foreign wars in the Middle East, he began them.

I think the decisions with China were a mistake. So I certainly don't want to defend that. And by the same token, I think the Clinton years were generally great years in America. So this is not partisan. For analysis on my part, what do you think about the China concept here and how we would go forward?

And what's the what's the path forward with China? I mean, again, like, I think it comes down to your objective, and who are you solving for? And who should we solve for democracy, the human species? Well, I mean, I feel like the point of view that, you know, one government is innately better than another is being tested and proven right and wrong every day right now.

And, and I'm not sure that it's fair to say that just because the form of government that the you know, that the Chinese have kind of adopted and used to govern their, their, their, their country and their people. is innately wrong. There's certainly things that are innately wrong in many democracies and that are innately wrong in many non democratic republics.

And so I'm not sure it's fair to just say that, you know, that that's really the objective is let's get rid of that communism. I mean, that was an easy kind of simple, you know, check that you could use a few decades ago as a way to kind of rally everyone emotionally towards some cause.

But I think there's a lot of businesses today that operate effectively in their own kind of geopolitical class. And it's a little bit of a kind of misstatement to think that an American company is an American company. It's not that American quote unquote, American companies solely build their stuff and sell their stuff in the United States.

Many American quote unquote, American companies build stuff overseas and sell stuff overseas. And global is globalization as much as we might want to kind of poo poo the effects it's had on the average quote unquote, American worker. It really has transformed the way businesses operate with respect to politics and countries.

There's a God, what's the book, I can't remember the book, but there's a book that speaks to how a lot of large multinational corporations today effectively have to operate as if they were countries into and unto themselves. And so they have competing interests with respect to what the average American or the American government or the American people might have, even though they might be quote unquote, American companies, and there might be some intricate tie.

And so I'm not sure it's as clear as that. And so I'm not sure it's as simple as we have to quote unquote, defeat China, we are so intricately tied to the, to the economy of China to the workers of China, and vice versa. And I think that it's a much more complicated thing than you know, here's our three point checklist for how do we quote unquote, beat China.

And that's, that's why it's hard. And that's why I think a lot of smart people have, you know, kind of taken on and been challenged by and failed at trying to resolve a path forward where there's this quote unquote, looming enemy. And so I think that's what's going to become the global economic power, which strips the American people of their influence around the world.

And you know, that may be kind of the inevitability of the 21st century. I don't think that's a dark inevitability if but I don't know if there's a simple easy answer. And I don't know if from a from a business point of view, let's say I'm a company. I'm not sure I necessarily feel the effects of one quote unquote country affecting, you know, having more influence globally with other countries and others.

It turns out a lot of businesses have greater influence than a lot of governments. And so, you know, one way to kind of think about the evolution of globalization, and maybe even with respect to kind of the notion of what we've been talking about decentralization, is that maybe governments themselves become less important in the 21st century.

And it's the kind of decentralized online movements and businesses and you know, other kinds of entities that perhaps are not as regulated and controlled and owned by governments and you know, maybe the big failure of the 21st century will be governments. We'll see. I think that's a good question.

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