In 2011, author John Knapp published an evocatively titled book, "How the Church Fails Business People and What Can Be Done About It." In it, he argued that the church has not helped Christians succeed in the secular business world because churches have not helped Christians in the secular business world develop the day-to-day ethical decision-making skills that they need.

It's a bold accusation, but it's also one that implies quite a lot about the relationship of the church to Christian leaders in the secular business world. So has the modern church failed to equip business people? And if so, what can be done about it? Those are my questions to Dr.

Albert Moeller, among Reformed leaders in America. I'm not aware of many gifted leaders who have proven it over the decades more than Moeller has. He's the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, where he brought unimaginable institutional transformation, which has now been documented in the 2015 book, "Baptists in America, a History," by Thomas Kidd and Barry Hankins.

Moeller is not only a leader, he's written a book on leadership titled, "The Conviction to Lead, 25 Principles for Leadership that Matters." I talked with him and began by asking him if the church has let business people down, and if so, how? I think the church has failed not so much by a strategic decision to ignore the business world, but by a couple of things, a confluence of the fact that many churches simply don't know what to do with the world of business.

And that is partly because of the social distance, and otherwise because some churches simply don't have the kind of natural entree into that context. I think the second reason, though, is a little more serious, and that is a lack of confidence that we really know what to say in that world.

And I think we do. I would not suggest that Christianity comes with a technical and comprehensive stated economic or fiscal policy, but it does come with the application of Christian truth, who is deployed for the glory of God in the world of business. Yeah, yeah. In your book, one of the most helpful points you make is that leadership is about storytelling.

You write this, "No organization that exists simply for itself is worth leading. Leaders want to lead organizations and movements that make a difference, that fill a need and solve real problems. That story frames the mission and identity of the organization and explains why you give your life to it.

The excellent leader is the steward and chief of that story, and the leader's chief responsibilities flow from this stewardship. Leadership comes down to protecting the story, bringing others into the story, and keeping the organization accountable to the story. The leader tells the story over and over again, refining it, updating it, and driving it home." Explain this idea more for us that leadership is storytelling.

Well, it's more than that, of course, but it's never less than that, because any leader seeking to lead in any important endeavor ends up telling a story about where things are and where they need to be. And furthermore, the leader comes with his or her own story. That story becomes a part of explaining how the convictions have come to take possession of the leader and why he wants others to be a part of that story in order for the organization, the congregation, the institution, the family, whatever group it is, to arrive at the destination that is implied by and fulfilled by the story.

So whether it's a political leader saying, "This is what America's all about. This is what we were founded to be. This is now what we need to do." Or whether it's Moses reminding the children of Israel over and over again, "Remember your story. We were in bondage to Pharaoh in Egypt, but God brought us out by his mighty hand." And then everything that follows is predicated on the fact that, "Okay, now we know our story.

We know who we are. That implies what we are to do." Yes. And speaking of stories, how does a Christian leader who understands the redemptive storyline of creation, fall, redemption, recreation, how does that story translate into what he does on Monday? You know, Tony, I think that's a fantastic question, and it is well answered only partially in terms of anyone trying to take a stab at that.

But let me suggest this. I think a part of what the Christian in the business world, you might say even in the secular world, because it would apply to the world of politics or even the world of academia or the cultural creatives, I think a part of what that Christian has to say is, "Look, what we're doing is really important.

I'm absolutely convinced this work is important. It's important because in this world, we've been put here for a purpose, and I'm very thankful to have these gifts and this opportunity and to be with you in this endeavor." But at the same time, the Christian leader says, "As important as this is, and as much as we're going to strive for excellence and push ourselves to go beyond where we even could imagine we could go, this is not the most important thing in life." And I think the Christian leader always has to demonstrate that.

"My marriage is actually more important to me than this work. My children are actually more important to me than a promotion." At the same time, I give myself to a greater degree of commitment. I'm invested in this to a greater degree of personal heart, mind, and soul because I know that this is important.

And the Christian worldview validates the importance of work in this world, and the glory of God in the human being made in God's image, doing what God has created us to do, to use creative energy, to be driven by visions, to use the physical capacity to craft, to manufacture, to create, to use the relational gifts to be able to sell, to buy, to bargain, to negotiate.

All of these things are validated in terms of a biblical worldview that says, "This life we're living right now is not something that is just a prelude to real life. This is real life. We're promised an even more real richer life in Christ to come, but this life is validated as being important, not only to us, but to the Creator who gave us these gifts and gave us life and gave us a task." Yeah, so every company should be led from a sub-narrative to explain why their services or products matter, but some don't, or at least it's not obvious.

I mean, how would you counsel a businessman in a corporation that, to be honest, seems to have no compelling story to protect? What then? You know, there is an old Christian theological concept that is important here. It's called sphere sovereignty, and it reminds us that we are responsible for that which is put into our care under our stewardship.

So one of the things that every Christian in the business world or the secular world needs to remember is that we're not responsible for the things that are beyond our pay grade. If the company we're working for doesn't have a clear grasp of its story, we're probably unable to reach two or three executive levels above to solve that problem.

But where we are, where our unit is assigned, the work that is ours, that has a story. And we're at least going to be very clear about what our story is. And furthermore, we're going to try to help others to understand how important it is to know who we are, why we're here, what we're doing, why it matters, and what every group being led wants to know, where in the world are we going?

That was Dr. Albert Moeller by phone from his office. He's the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary and author of the book, "The Conviction to Lead, 25 Principles for Leadership that Matters." Tomorrow, I'll ask him how we balance conviction, humility, and self-confidence in the workplace. I'm your host, Tony Reinke, and I'll see you tomorrow.

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