So, Sax, are we going to talk with each other today or, you know, or... He's an ISO player. He turned into an ISO player. He's like the Carmelo Anthony of this squad. He's the Carmelo Anthony of the all-in pod. Sax, you want to pass the ball or you just want to...

You want to clank it off the rim? Raymond, clank! I think we should have a focus on having a dialogue with each other today. Several points in the thing as opposed to all standing up, saying our piece and then hopping off. Sax, we lost a little bit of the fiber of this team here.

There's three people playing as a team and then there's like... Sax, I would love to ask you questions and I would love for you to ask me questions. Pass the ball, J. Cal. You're the f***ing guard. You pass the ball. I'm supposed to score. Oh, really? Remember what Sax used to say when he wasn't getting the ball?

He gets really unhappy. He said, pass the ball to the big dog. He'll score. I'm Sax. You're not Kobe. Who is the shitty little, like... Derek Fisher? Yeah, you're Derek Fisher. Make sure the big dog gets the ball. There won't be any problems. I'm Bob Cousy, okay? I'm Gary Payton in this f***ing analogy.

Okay? Let your winners ride. Rain Man D. David Sasson. And it's said... We open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it. Love you, besties. Queen of Kinwa. I'm going all in. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the All In Podcast, where three besties talk about a range of topics and one monologues about Biden derangement syndrome.

We're with you again this week, the Sultan of Science and the dictator, Chamath Palihapitiya, David Friedberg. And playing... ISO ball somewhere in the wing is your political commentator, Tucker Jr. You're engaged in an active projection. Rain Man David Sax. It's an active projection. All right, you know, first story, which Sax is going to lose his mind over.

He's got two monologues prepared. Justin Trudeau has invoked an emergency order to freeze bank accounts linked to trucker protests in Canada. On Monday, Trudeau invoked an emergency law that requires financial institutions in Canada to examine... Customer records and take action against people involved with or aiding in the protest.

Here's Trudeau's tweet from yesterday. If you're watching on the video streams, illegal blockades and occupations are not peaceful protests. They're a threat to jobs and communities, and they cannot continue. In the House of Commons earlier today, I joined members of the Parliament to speak about that and about the need to invoke the Emergencies Act.

The Counter Signal, which is a right leaning Canadian digital publication, reported that 34 different crypto wallets, were also being targeted by Canadian officials. This law grants the government extraordinary powers like the right to ban public assembly in certain locations. The Canadian Civil Liberties Association said it planned to challenge the government's decision in court.

Remember, Sax wrote a piece on financial deplatforming for Barry Weiss's Common Sense about a year ago. The piece was about the private sector financial platforms deplatforming folks. So your thoughts, Sax. You have 90 seconds on the uninterrupted clock. On the shot clock. All right. Thank you, J. Kelly. It's true.

Last summer, I wrote a piece for Barry Weiss's Substack talking about how financial deplatforming would be the next wave of online censorship. And here we are. It's actually happened. What I could not have predicted is that it would occur in our mild manner neighbor to the north and that the reprisals would be directed by the government itself, not just a consortium of private sector.

And what Trudeau has done is he didn't just employ the Emergency Act against the truckers so that he could basically arrest them and break up the protest. They have now directed banks and any financial institution, even cryptocurrency wallets, to freeze the accounts, not just of the truckers, but anybody who's contributed to them.

Basically, anyone who's contributed $25 or more. There were two crowdfunding sites that they raised money from. All those people. There were thousands of of just ordinary Canadians who did nothing more than contribute to an anti government protest. They are now at risk of financial ruin because their bank accounts have been frozen.

And you have to wonder what is the end here that justifies the means. COVID, you know, Omicron is on the wane. It's on its way out at the same time that Trudeau was announcing these dictatorial measures for the guy who runs Ontario, the largest province. 15 seconds. Ford was out there saying that he was going to that COVID mandates were going to be over.

So why exactly are they doing this? You know, we're at the end of COVID and... Sax, let me ask you a question. Yes, go for it. If there were people online making donations to the criminals who loot and kill people in San Francisco, which you've railed against being criminals who are breaking the law and should all be put behind bars.

Do you think that it would be appropriate in that context for the government to block their donations? Yes. If they were to block their donations to supporting criminal activity in a criminal ring, you know, that I think we all agree, you know, shouldn't be transpiring. Well, but the implication there is that truckers are using violence or something like that.

And they're not. I mean, it's been it's been largely a peaceful protest. It's been very annoying to people who's... But isn't the case being made that they are actually breaking the law by blocking streets? And that's not, you know, there's a peaceful protest where you can go and get a permit and actually go in a public zone.

And peacefully protest within the confines of the law and what's allowed in that jurisdiction. Look. But what these folks are doing is civil disobedience, which is not a peaceful protest. It is, you know, kind of breaking the law to make a point. It is peaceful because there's been no violence.

If you look at actual videos... But they're breaking the law, right? Well, let me let me ask the question for Freeburg then, Sax. If a group of truckers were shutting down the Bay Bridge with three lanes of traffic and then shut down the two lanes of the Bay Bridge, would that be a peaceful protest?

If they shut down the 280 and the 101 and it impacted this, if they in fact are shutting down roads... And picked up our families and our businesses and our emergency travel... And ambulances can't get through, would you want them to be towed? Would you want their cars to be towed?

Listen, here's the thing. The Ambassador Bridge, this vital choke point of commerce between the US and Canada, that was blocked and that was creating a serious problem. But it had already been cleared on Monday by the time that Trudeau invoked the Emergencies Act. And then on Tuesday, he then invokes...

Your opinion, Sax. If they block roads and bridges, would you, if you were in charge... If they're breaking the law... Yeah, if they're breaking the law in that way, it's not just one lane, it's all three lanes. It damages society. I'm just trying to understand the standard here because just zooming out to last year and the year before, right?

There was a protest happening with BLM and those BLM protests resulted in damage to private property, to burning cars. There were protests at the Capitol. There were protests at the Capitol that involved folks trespassing into federal land and federal buildings. And now there's protests that are blocking vital trade routes and access to emergency vehicles and all this sort of stuff.

To me, and also people in San Francisco breaking the law and not being put in jail, my personal opinion is anyone that's breaking the law, we should stop them from breaking the law. And anyone that wants to follow a peaceful protest or make a point should make the point.

And I think that's the point. I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point.

And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. And I think that's the point. Again, going back to the Rene Girard sort of philosophical discussion from last week, one of the things about, you know, the stoning rituals, right, that Sacks talked about, that we talked about last week, one of the things that Rene Girard talks about is, it is always hardest for that first person, right?

The first person that throws the stone, right, that's how Jesus was able to defuse that, that incident as described in the book of John. But in a different example, the first person that throws a stone, all of a sudden, it's all of a sudden normalizes it for everybody else after them.

And then the stonings become commonplace or became commonplace. So similarly, it's like, if you're a sitting democratic person who just decides this doesn't work for you, you can't flip the script. And and basically remove everybody's democratic rights. That's really crazy. So actually, I had a closing point you want to make?

Well, okay, just on this point about Bitcoin, the reason why Bitcoin is necessary is because the tactics that Trudeau is using is essentially to starve these truckloads of people. He's basically starving these guys out. He's basically making it hard for you to get a job. He's basically making it hard for you to get a job to not only basically arrest them, and but he's also taking away their insurance licenses.

He's basically preventing them from ever working again. He's talked about that we're going to put give you a criminal record, it's gonna make it hard for you to get a job. And then most importantly, on top of that, he's preventing anyone from helping them by contributing to them by making a donation.

So he's essentially starving these guys out. And that's the reason why Bitcoin is potentially helpful is it allows people using non custodial wallets to make an end run around that. And donate and help these these people who are being persecuted, essentially, I mean, he could have just simply chosen to do what Sachs his favorite President Obama did with Occupy Wall Street, which is say, Great, you have something you want to voice.

Here's where you can do it. Just you know, no guns, no violence. But we let How long did Occupy Wall Street last in downtown Wall Street and in Oakland and other places like a year or two, and you just wait them out. And that's it. I think when you encounter a sincere protest movement, the first thing you should do as a leader is actually listen and try to understand what it is that they're protesting on behalf of.

And Trudeau never did that. He went straight to 11 with this. And I think part of the reason why I mean, Jake, how you asked, why? Why is it that, that, you know, there seems to be a common denominator with this and with the Ukraine issue that the leaders are immediately escalating these situations instead of looking for a way to de escalated and they're doing it with the media egging them on.

And so as as harsh as Trudeau's rhetoric has been, the media's rhetoric has been, you know, the rhetoric around this has been even worse. You have this CNN contributor, Juliette Kayyem, who's also a Harvard professor, who basically tweeted that Trudeau needed to slash their tires, empty the gas tanks, arrest the drivers, you know, making it unclear how you never get the trucks off the bridge.

But then she said, cancel their insurance, suspend their driver's license, prohibit any future regulatory verification. She says, trust me, I will not run out of ways to make this hurt. You know, it's you have the media. They're cheering this on egging on Trudeau. They're doing the same thing beating the drums of war in Ukraine.

What is wrong with these people? Yeah, de escalate. And where's the off ramp? I think the biggest the biggest story is this, this Bitcoin thing, because, you know, if you guys think about like, pre 1960s, like capital wasn't digitized, it was like physical, like you had to own like a stock certificate or cash or gold, or a bearer bond.

Today, everything is digitized, right? Like there's a digital record of you know, who owns what stock and who how much is in your bank account, and none of it is tied to you're having a physical asset. And ultimately, the law was able to reach into these digital systems and have greater oversight and ultimately control, you know, over accounts and so on.

And it's had a, you know, the digitization of capital assets has had an incredible ability to drive economic growth and investment and ease of transaction. But it's also significantly increased the centralization of assets. So the central influence over assets, Bitcoin seems to be the resolution to that. And now you're seeing the ultimate challenge to Bitcoin and the challenge to decentralized systems like Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies and so on.

I don't want to speak specifically to anyone. But there seems to be like this trend line over the last 60 years that's now being challenged, because you can have your accounts frozen any moment, you know, for breaking the law or because emergency acts are are induced, and I think you're right, it's probably going interest in these kind of off government chain if Trey's separate, anybody can do it.

They're doing it in China, right? And they're, that's the point of it. Digital yuan is like this incredible whole point. It's like absolute centralization of every capital asset. Here's where you get scary. Think of how dangerous the digital yuan is the minute you say something that Xi Jinping doesn't like it's a it's a stroke of a keyboard key.

And all your assets are all your assets are locked away. It's a database entry and you just basically reroute who belong who belongs to or it could be it could happen in America. They say you know what California now wants to have a wealth tax. Anybody who's got money, we're just going to take your money out automatically.

You guys think we sound like a right wing politics show at this point? This isn't a right wing politics thing. I mean, I think I think that we have so jumped the shark. There are things that are happening today every day that you know, if you had said in isolation two or three years ago, would any of these things ever happen?

We all would have just said, Oh, we're going to just looked at each other and said, it's impossible that these things could happen. But the problem is, fast forward two years of a pandemic, I think we have led a lot of our civil liberties decay right under our nose.

And we're not willing to fight for it because it's become too tribal and rights have been politicized. So the idea of having rights, you know, and then standing up for your rights, all of a sudden has to be a decision between whether you're left or right. That's crazy. I don't think that liberties in the sense of government oversight have decayed.

Because in addition to that, liberties in the sense of a social setting have decayed. You know, we've because of cancel culture, we've normalized the ability to silence minority or dissenting voices. And this is both in the private enterprise setting as well as in the public setting. And it's, you know, I don't know, I don't consider myself a right wing conservative person by any stretch.

But I do consider myself a person who believes in individual freedom and liberty. That's called an American, by the way. Yeah, it's basically being an American. And I think, you know, as we move on to this recall in San Francisco, I think, Sachs made a really good point. Like, what are our political leaders doing here?

Are they trying to stir the pot and antagonize these situations? If you look, you know, Clinton, Obama, a lot of people previously were trying to defuse these situations. And then Biden seems to be stirring the pot, Justin Trudeau. And then if you look at Trump with BLM, you know, and the immigration stuff, he never sat down and met with him.

And he, you know, he's a very, very good leader. And he arguably antagonize them. So I think this is a perfect segue into what happened. And, you know, so we should expect a little more from our political leaders. Great point from Sachs, you just brought up something incredible. You know, Trump railed against these BLM folks.

But at no point did he try to shut down their bank accounts and take their money away? No. And Trudeau can't, you know, this was not even near in the scale of BLM. Yeah, who's the bigger authoritarian? Yeah, I mean, it's clearly if you objectively it's true down in this situation, but the scary authoritarianism, as we talked about in previous pods tends to come from the left.

At least the right you see it coming. I just want to read it's veiled under moral virtue signaling. That's right. They're very sanctimonious. They claim they claim to be the defenders of the working class, while they're actually prosecuting them. Such an unforced error, like, so dumb. He's gonna lose right now he's gonna lose if a DA was elected and a police office and police chief were elected to San Francisco, that said we are going to freeze the bank accounts and you know, demobilize the criminals that are ransacking our city, our people, our stores, would you support that?

No, not if it's an office, an extrajudicial use of power. I mean, the law specifies what you're allowed to do. Giving San Francisco's in an emergency situation. I mean, would you support the mayor taking on emergency authority to go and fix the problem, which she just did, by the way, in a tenderloin?

Yeah, but that doesn't give her the power to go to Wells Fargo and say to Wells Fargo, we want you to freeze all these accounts with no due process of law. That's basically what Trudeau has done. That's the overreach. That's the line you think is like, go and see that you should have to go through a court proceeding to freeze someone's bank account, period.

Can't just freeze someone's bank account. The law allows you to do this now. It's called RICO. So you follow the due process of the law. And you can do all those things freeberg that that you just mentioned, if you want to freeze somebody's bank account, right, you can actually do that.

The government has the ability to do that they don't need to pass. This basically get out of jail free card to do whatever you want without any oversight. And to your mother's point earlier, have you exhausted the regular law here? They're not arresting the regular law haven't even tried is you can buy Fenton off for five bucks on you know, the tenderloin anytime you want.

And meanwhile, the all the provinces are ending COVID mandates anyway. So this whole issue is moot. So dumb. It's this is like the stupidest behavior at the end of a pandemic that we've ever seen. And shout out to George Lucas for getting it right. I mean, if you look at the theme of Star Wars, it was like, Oh, I just need emergency powers for a minute because of a trade federation blockade.

And here we go. A crisis, a fake crisis. Yeah, that wasn't George Lucas, by the way. I mean, that goes back to the Roman Empire, right? Like, yeah, yeah, that was the formation of the Caesar got Caesar got emergency authority. I mean, this is a tried and true and the poll the poll.

Right. And the polls show that the most of the public in Canada is applauding. So what was the line from democracy dies to applause? Exactly. That's exactly that was Padme's line in the Star Wars films. All right. They're aging. Well, the prequels, three members of San Francisco's Board of Education were they were the worst just to be clear, but go on.

Not compared to the three, just huge dumps that Disney took on the our childhoods with the sequels. Three members of the San Francisco Board of Education were called this week. Massively they lost by between 72% and 79%. These were the virtue signaling. maniacs who wanted to change the names of all the schools wouldn't reopen the schools, yada, yada, and this really frustrated and they wanted to get rid of elite AP classes.

All of this. Jason, they did. They did. Yeah. And these three board members are out. So London breed. Jason, Jason, just to be clear, in the middle of a pandemic, I think my understanding is that instead of figuring out how to get these kids back in class, how to figure out how they could take off their masks, they wanted to drop Abraham Lincoln and George Washington's name from schools because it was it was too regressive.

Yep. They cancelled the gifted program because it made other kids feel bad. And a gentleman that wanted to serve on a committee who I think was gay, but not minority was excluded because he wasn't a minority. Enough for them. So these are the three people that 76% of San Francisco citizens or, you know, residents just recalled.

And if you're not following this, the tech industry had a major part in this in terms of backing it, there was a lot of claims, which I'll let Saks address in a moment, that this was a republican driven out of state movement. But if you look, there are not 100,000 Republicans in San Francisco, in all likelihood, this was actually parents in a lot of cases based on the geography of San Francisco and the density of certain populations.

A lot of Asian Americans came out in force and some neighborhoods 90% were voting to oust these people. Gary Tan, who is a product of the San Francisco public education system and a great entrepreneur venture capitalist was a leader in this movement. So congratulations to him. And this all is going to culminate I think in May or June Saks will correct me with the recall effort for Chesa Boudin, this killer DA who won't prosecute anybody.

Saks, what are your thoughts on this victory? And full disclosure, you were a major donor to this. Saks Wadham: I was the second largest donor. And I was the largest donor under age 90. Arthur Rock was the biggest donor. What a badass, by the way, the guy's 95 years old, he donated $4,000 to this recall.

He was in fairness, you live in San Francisco. This is a backdoor issue for you. You care. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Look, I think crime in schools are the key quality of life issues in any community and that transcends partisan boundaries. If your kids cannot get a quality education, and you cannot be safe in your community, nothing else matters.

And that matters to Democrats just as much as as republicans and that's why like you said three quarters of san francisco voted for this recall even though 85 percent of them voted for biden it's not it's basically a 90 democrat city so uh you know all these claims that was a republican recall turned out to be nonsense this was something that was broadly supported and um and you know look it's the same reason that youngkin flipped a you know plus 10 democrat state in virginia which is that you know it had a lot to do with school closures they kept the schools closed for a year and a half uh and then when they were supposed to have conversation a pta meeting about reopening it like jamaa spent said they spent five hours debating whether to allow this beloved gay parent onto a voluntary school board they didn't they spent all their time you know talking about changing the names of the schools instead of how to reopen them they also there's chronic mismanagement i mean the school is something like 125 million dollars in debt despite you know being in a very rich city they opened for a while and then they closed for a while and then they closed for a while and then they closed for one day that's right just so that they could get a state uh piece of the state budget pie so these kids clamored back to school just so that they could technically say yeah we were open and to get i think it was a 12 or 13 million dollar check and then they shut the schools down again right and you brought a key point jason which is that the asian-american community in san francisco has been absolutely galvanized by this issue because this school board also you know lowell high school is one of the best schools in the city and it was merit based and it had great advanced math programs and this this board basically got rid of all of that stuff and it infuriated the asian-american community many of whose most prominent members have basically risen out of poverty because of the education they got at lowell and so this war on merit that's happening is something that is going to you know flip the you know asian uh american community i think to when i when i was growing up i grew up in a french ghetto of ottawa and i was supposed to go to a local high school that was just plainly trash and i was able to go to an equivalent of lowell this a public magnet high school that had uh advanced classes and everything a gifted program and it really did change my life and so i really understand what people are saying which is like when you're in poverty the only way out is through an education really you may you know get accidentally lucky but the only really particular predictable sustainable pattern here is is through school and so when you deprive folks from being able to get a decent education and there's no real you know orderly logic to it it's a really ridiculous kind of an idea the other thing is i think that this speaks very powerfully as sac said as a non as a bipartisan issue that these democrats have to get right because you know you saw this also in virginia where democrats basically went down this one tack and you know the republican candidate glenn yunkin basically said hey listen the schools are broken it completely doesn't make any sense we oppose a lot of what's going on the watering down and the critical race theory etc etc and he put it to a vote and a lot of people crossed the aisle there as well where typically ardent democrats basically voted for this republican governor i think the point is that there are just several issues that are just so transcendent like they're just they transcend all party lines and this is an anchor issue that we have to get right friedberg any thoughts on this do you think this is the start of maybe a turnaround for san francisco because chesa boone is way more hated and safety is an even bigger issue i think for a lot of people right now in san francisco and it dovetails with asian hate and the number of asian people targeted in crimes so he's gotta i mean if these people got out by 75 on average he's gonna be out by 95 is this a tipping point is san francisco gonna make a read i don't know i mean look i think there's generally a broader trend and momentum around what we classify as wokeism which i think is a little bit disparaging to the intention of social justice and recognizing the the primary points of social justice through action and behavior um in civic discourse and government behavior um and you know this like the um election of san francisco and the number of asian people targeted in crimes is a tipping point several DAs around the country, who take a different stance to prosecution of crime to try and create better options for rehab and so on, I think is not a movement that's going to go away overnight.

I think there's certainly a hefty amount of resistance. But what we're really doing right now is I think we're learning and realizing the boundaries of this movement and of this moment. The one boundary that I think San Franciscans are too bad in San Francisco, like, you know, as in the case in tech has always been so progressive in terms of, you know, doing these things faster than anyone else.

But what we're realizing in San Francisco is non prosecution of criminals, as the DA has undertaken over the past couple of years leads to really heinous crime and rampant crime. And, and this kind of social justice movement within the education system causes a decline in the value of our education system.

Those are two really important learnings that San Francisco has had. And I think that's a really important learning that San Francisco has had. And I think that's a really important learning that San Francisco has had. And I think that's a really important learning that San Francisco has had. And I think that's a really important learning that San Francisco has had over the past couple of years, with this very important and momentous kind of social justice movement.

But it doesn't mean that the movement is over. It doesn't mean that quote unquote, woke ism is over. It means that that social justice intent is still there. But we're realizing where the boundaries are and how far things can and maybe should go. I posted this article, Tyler Collin, who's a pretty well known economist, he wrote this op ed for Bloomberg.

And what he said is that woke ism has peaked. And there's just these two passages. And I think that's a really important lesson for us to learn. And I think that's a really important lesson for us to learn. And I think that's a really important lesson for us to learn.

And I think that's a really important lesson for us to learn. And I think that's a really important lesson for us to learn. And I think that's a really important lesson for us to learn. And I think that's a really important lesson for us to learn. And I think that's a really important lesson for us to learn.

that builds on what Friedberg said. Quote, by woke ism, I refer to a movement that on the positive side is highly aware of racism and social injustice, and is galvanized towards raising awareness on the negative side, it can be preachy, alienating, overly concerned with symbols and self righteous, unquote.

And I think that that probably does summarize sort of like where it starts, which is, I think, rooted in a very good place. But unfortunately, all too often where it ends, which is that sort of moral absolutist judgment, cancel culture around it. And then the second quote, that he said was the following, he said, quote, woke ism is likely to evolve into a subculture that is highly educated, highly white, and fairly feminine.

That is still a large mass of people, but not enough to run the country or all its major institutions. In the San Francisco school board recall, for instance, the role of Asian Americans was especially prominent, unquote. So I don't know, I just think that all these things sort of people are looking for affiliation, and you start with labels that bring you in, and then you have to sort out are all these labels really true?

And how true are they? And I think we're in this moment now, where now that we know the mechanism of action of woke ism, I just don't think it works anymore. And I think a lot of people will say, I believe in the high order of deals of racial and social justice, but I don't believe in the mechanism of action.

And so the pendulum swung too far. But but but but the question is, how do we do that? And I think that's the core intent of a generation of change is underway, which is social justice and climate change. I think those are the two big points of concern be done with this cohort under this.

Well, it will be done to this extreme this fast, right. And, and I think that the pendulum went too fast, too far. And it's and there are boundary effects that are causing recourse right now. And we're seeing this across the country, especially in New York with the election of the mayor and San Francisco, the DA recalls happening in the next couple of months.

So, Zach, what's your prediction on the DA recall? By the way, well, that's 95%. But I mean, just to build on your point, they were talking about 10% of the people in the United States who are involved in this, you know, retweeting and virtual signaling and, you know, is Twitter a real place?

Well, no, a city is a real place, people have to live in San Francisco. And when these ideologies result in unlivable conditions for people, well, they're going to say, you know what, there's reality here. How do we get competent people to take the positions sacks that are being vacated now?

Who should London breed put in these three positions? And maybe tech people need to say, I mean, this is what I think has to happen. I think some number of tech people have to get off the bench and say, you know what, I'm going to do a tour of duty as politicians in San Francisco, to take back the city, what should happen here in terms of who takes these positions because Republicans can't win in San Francisco.

So you're gonna need moderate Democrats, right? Before sacks goes, can I just say something? Because I think I just want to say something that's really important sacks. I'm sorry to jump in. But Jake, how I think the point you're making about the tech people implies the tech people are effective and good at doing this.

But that's not necessarily the fabric of San Francisco. I've lived in San Francisco since 2001. The number of people in San Francisco in 2001, that were in the tech industry was a minority. Since that time, it became a significant size. And over the last two years, since the pandemic, it's decreased significantly.

But San Francisco is a city with decades and generations of history. My wife's family is multi generational San Franciscans. And I don't think that traditionally San Franciscans view tech people as the right people to solve these problems for them, that the intention of that city is not necessarily about let's get tech people to solve our problems.

They have a different set of values, perhaps. And so we often overstate and assume that tech people are the right people and are the problem solvers. But I don't think that that's necessarily the right problems that people want to solve. So I just I just wanted to interview. Who should take these positions?

Because right, people that are really far left people are motivated to take these positions. I don't see business people writ large across all political, you know, positions, but specifically San Francisco don't want to take these positions. So is this just going to be replayed? Sacks, the recall effort was led by two parents, autumn illusion and Siva Raj, they're the ones who led this thing.

They're the ones who rose up to basically oppose these crazy school board members. And that is who London Breach to talk to. I mean, she needs to go talk to the people who are successful. And she's going to be the one who's going to be the one who's going to be the one who in organizing this recall because they understand the issues, obviously, and the people are with them.

So either appoint them to the board or ask them for their recommendations. And I think what you see consistently, whether it's with this SF school board or the school boards that we saw in Virginia that Youngkin very effectively ran against, is that they don't believe the parents matter. Terry McColl is fatal.

His last gap was basically saying that the parents shouldn't get to decide what is taught in the schools. He basically said the quiet part out loud. But that is what still across the country, the teachers unions believe, and most of the Democratic Party, the activists believe, and until they start losing elections, you're not going to see a change in that belief.

Oh my god, how awesome would it be if SACs were on the school board? Oh my god. Yeah. And just to put a pin in this, and the cherry on top, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted seven to four to send a report to the school board. And they didn't get to vote.

They didn't get to vote. recall reform bill so their reaction to all of this is to do a recall of recalls and say now you uh can't recall somebody in their first year and the people who are placed in these positions can't run again so now the speculation is that three people who got voted off are gonna run again so there's a lot more to come on this yeah and also so they're putting just at that they're putting that on the ballot on june 7th the same day that we vote on the recall of jason budi and the border supervisor's now put in this measure that would make it far harder to recall people one of the provisions of that is whoever london breed appoints as the successor like you're talking about they cannot run after that so it is designed to for no that makes no sense they're basically trying to do a great job right exactly it makes no sense so you have the board of supervisors trying to throw a wrench into the democratic process meanwhile these are people who claim to be preserving democracy saving democracy they are trying to throw a wrench in the thing is underlying it david is they think they know better that's what it fundamentally comes down to they are willing to have democracy up to a point and when that point is an unacceptable view by somebody else they feel like they know better and they're willing to be really draconian in whatever they do to decide yeah and shout out to mike bloomberg i'll pull up the the tweet for everybody he hasn't been very vocal or been on the stage much but obviously he did a great job in new york on reforming schools the san francisco school board recall should be a wake-up call to elected officials especially democrats across the nation parents are fed up with the status quo and that put adults uh that puts adults ahead of kids yeah an ideology ahead of results well said mike yeah well said mr bloomberg yes that was very good and bloomberg has been very good on calling out the democrat their democratic party's blind loyalty to the teachers unions and until they're willing to break with the teachers unions they're going to be able to do a great job of calling out the democrats they're going to be able to do a great job of calling out the democrats they're going to teachers unions who are their biggest donor we're not going to get any real progress on school reform and this is the issue my favorite political commentator one of them is roy toshira who's a democrat who wrote the emerging democratic majority he wrote a blog post talking about how the asian how asian american voters are going to swing away from the democratic party because of issues like this because of the decline of standards in school and safety and and the asian american community i think is galvanized on this chase budin issue because they have seen in all these cases of asian american voters are going to swing away from the democratic party because of the asian how asian american voters are going to swing away from the democratic party because of asian asian hate where elders in their community have been violently assaulted chase abudin has done nothing except release the perpetrators bonkers all right well listen this is it seems like a good turning point let's um we talked about on this podcast over and over again about the compression in sas multiples in the public market valuations uh something that we're still working through in the stock market uh which has been choppy at best over the last couple of months an information story came out just this week major crossover funds like tiger and d1 are going to be in the stock market and d1 are slowing down their investments in late-stage private companies and i was talking to some folks who said the multiple compression is here now they're not doing the deals at 75 or 100x revenue this was reported in an article by the information tiger global told their lps in a webinar earlier this month that it would no longer focus on backing late-stage startups preparing to go public instead they will focus on two things going even earlier into series a and series b rounds and buying shares of public tech companies and buying shares of public tech companies and that have sunk in value compared to the all-time highs uh obviously we know twillow zoom block all down over 60 from their one year highs i could get into more details here but let's stop for a second and chamath what are your thoughts in uh the dot-com bubble it took somewhere between three to five years for most stocks to bottom and they bottomed i think peak to trough somewhere you know towards eighty percent of where they were in two thousand right so it took three to five years to go basically minus eighty percent we did that in three months you know maybe four months and so uh the markets have become a lot more efficient over time so now that we have that reset it's pretty natural that there's going to be a very quick reset on the private market side and you know you have to go where the bodies are buried and what i mean by that in this case is the overwhelming misvaluation of late-stage private companies and so these folks don't have much of a choice they have a lot of money that they've raised before all of this happened they have a huge portfolio of stuff that they've marked up or have been marked up by others and they don't want to go through the pain now of resetting so part of the easy strategic decision there is to say you know what we know this is a little bit radioactive but instead of really figuring out what the mark on these companies are we'll go to a different sort of part of the um playground and play there because we don't have to go and deal with these issues and you know we can do 10 15 20 million dollar checks into early stage businesses pretty normal reaction strategically but i think the reality is that at some point in the next year or two these other companies have to get public the hope is that the market catches back up so that you can defend the last valuation and that's the that's the way that this stuff doesn't require a lot of pain the problem is if you're high burn and you are counting on yet another successive round or you're at a point in your life cycle where you need to go public in the next two years if you go public you will get taken to the woodshed take you to the woodshed being your valuation might be half of what it is in your last round so there's going to be medicine that has to be taken sacks there'll be medicine some people are going to have to take some medicine sacks what's your best advice being one of the great operators in the history of silicon valley as a ceo of paypal thanks well i'm gonna put you up there with sure i mean i think this i think everybody agreed the top four people can correct me here tim that's a good operator i mean i i saw what you did to icq man you were riding that that bad boy down that wasn't delivered a billion users to a company okay it's pretty decent um you did pretty good at facebook i'll say that but if i would think most people would say sax cheryl tim cook keith raboi we'll put that aside for the debate in terms of operating throw a little dark spicy barbecue pork here come on give me give me i'll put you in the top 25 chamath sure okay but i mean it wasn't your it wasn't your chosen career a little dark meat a little dark meat nice jake please don't get me in trouble man don't bring me into your dark meat bro your orbit i'm stepping back wait jake who are your top four cheryl i put my top four in this order i'll give it an order so basically for white people when uh basically asian and indian ceos run most of the tech companies i'm talking about number two ceos not ceos just for the ceo position to be clear i'm talking ceo i'm talking ceo i would say tim cook when he was steve jobs that's my number one operator last 23 years number two i put cheryl sandberg who did obviously amazing things for google and then facebook right those two would be my top two and then i tie my top two sax uh as uh paypal uh and zenefits even though it didn't work out it was still a great run at the time and then i put keith raboi square uh and a couple of other companies he did those are my top four anybody else want to come in and talk about the top four companies that you've been working with for a long time let me go ahead i don't have complete data set on ceos where would you put sax you did i put you i didn't disagree who might have disappeared oh and wasn't keith linkedin it really you are jay cal lately that's a love fest now yeah okay there we go there we go they're back together advising you and friedberg are at each other's throats so i'll just let you guys fight it out and i'll be all about the love yeah free but why are you attacking jake cow yeah bar be quiet over there no one's asking you stay in your lane freebird so sax as an operator extraordinaire what's your best advice to the company that raised 100 million and let's say their valuation is now not a billion it's 500 million what are the steps you take you got 14 months of runway in the bank do you lay people off do you extend it to 24 what are your thoughts okay you must be dealing with this with companies in your portfolio well there's a few things going on first of all i think tiger built a great business in providing late stage sort of passive non-dilutive capital to companies sas companies we have a bunch of sas businesses that they provided later stage financing i think those valuations are going to come down i don't know that they're going to be such a great partner for series a firms because they are passive and you know what we see is that series a companies need a lot of help they need a lot of advice you need a lot of help with recruiting governance governance they need you know when they're growing from say 20 employees to 100 they need to know what that org chart looks like and on and on and on so i don't know that if this report i don't know if this reporting is accurate but i think it's going to be a good thing to do and i think it's actually true but if the goal is all of a sudden for tiger to become a series a investor that competes with craft or sequoia or these other firms that are not very hands-on that doesn't seem like a great strategy to me i do think that for our later stage companies they have to realize that you know if they raise can i take the other side of this sorry david i just want your reaction to this i think it's going to work but not for the right reasons the reason it'll work is there are way more entrepreneurs now than there are great entrepreneurs and so of all of these entrepreneurs that exist the idea of getting passive money where you won't get fired where there is that remember like remember when we were growing up in silicon valley the risk is always like if you take sequoia benchmark you know social capital like there's a high bar for that capital which means we are helping you run this business effectively and there's a cost where if you don't perform you'll get fired there's always been that risk it's true and i guess that's the argument they could make but the flip side is that there's a lot of these so the ceo now why would you take a 15 million series a check from sequoia where they could fire you whereas 15 million dollars from tiger they may never call you we we address that by doing look if a founder is really worried about that we address that by giving them three board seats you know we might have one they might have three i mean my view on it is you just never fire a founder unless they don't start a criminal it's just that simple but um so look i think there's ways of addressing the governance where uh you can get the help or the value out of an early stage firm without giving up the control so yeah i mean look that's the pitch that tiger would make but i think that's addressable uh what do you think of that pitch freeberg i will give you the 15 million series a you don't have to have a board you can just be passive and let us know how it goes give us a quarterly report we'll look at the p l that's all of crypto now anyways that's true well i mean that's a fair point no governance in crypto is leading to a lot of weird stuff i can tell you i tell people this a lot so i had um three term sheets for my series b uh it was from andreessen horowitz coastal ventures and founders fund and founders fund which came in kind of last minute but i went with kosla uh even though it's a lower valuation because the node was pretty insistent like let me put someone that could be useful some you know government person because we were doing a lot of work lobbying in in dc on your board we won't be on your board we won't bother you and i took the round and in my series c i took from founders fund because brian singerman who's obviously a good friend um you know made the case like look uh our model at founders fund is we let founders run the business we're not here to tell you how to run your business and they were both great fits and you know it worked out well i didn't i had i have had experience with antagonistic vcs on boards and um you know it generally creates a pretty negative dynamic now when i'm the worst story without the person's name i don't think i want to go public with it so i'm not going to do that um but when i was on give us an idea of what the behavior would be because there are people in the audience who want to know what is bad behavior vc just give us a composite when you're an entrepreneur or a ceo running an early stage business you live that business 20 hours a day you know the details if you're smart you're thorough you're analytical you're creative there is no one that's going to come in the boardroom for two hours a quarter and suggest things to you that you haven't thought of there's no one that's going to come in the room and be smarter than you at your own business and so more often than not vinod's been exceptional at defining this problem the problem is vc's think join a board and then you're going to have to figure out how to get the right people to join you and they think that they have to quote add value so they come in and they make a bunch of suggestions and recommendations and push you to do a bunch of things and as vinod has said correctly many times they more often than not add negative value they can actually destroy and damage a business because they need to feel like they're exerting some degree of influence over the business and as a result they push the business to do things that the ceo or founder otherwise wouldn't be doing and that often ends up in a kind of weird sticky kind of place so i just validated the tiger pitch right there i think that's right and by the way it's fun founders fund is fantastic i don't know if you guys are lps but their investment returns are so far beyond what i think anyone really realizes they're incredible investors and a big part of it is they try and find the entrepreneur that doesn't want and doesn't need the help and then they give them the capital to go and execute and they leave them the heck alone and they are just so good at finding those folks identifying them and then literally being passive in in how they kind of manage and operate their business and that's why they were so freaking good i think the people you're talking about are a lot of rookie vcs who are just so good at managing their business and they're just so good at managing their business and they're just so good at managing their business come in and then yeah they think they're not just just experienced ex-operators even people who ran businesses who say i know how to run a business and look no two businesses are alike so maybe the way they ran their business with their team and their market and their industry worked well for them but now when they got to come in and do it with someone else's business in some other space with some completely different team you know they try and exert influence and really it's just you know not wanted let me go to sax sax hold on i want to just get one from you give us an idea because you've been in the business for over 20 years uh i mean by the looks of it maybe 40 but 20 years of just crushing it in the business what's the worst behavior you've seen on a board uh you can make a composite of like a vc being destructive on a board yeah i mean look i think sometimes vcs will have sort of hobby horses and they'll keep pushing for things that the founder doesn't want um that's not productive but what i would say is first of all let me just say like i'm not somebody who likes to take board seats and i i do it as a it's like i see it as a cost not a benefit to me because it takes up my time if i didn't have to ever take a board seat that'd be a great as far as i'm concerned that'd be a good thing i'm not somebody who wants to you know insert myself and get on these boards you know offer it as an incentive no i only i only took a board sales yeah the only reason i'll ever take a board seat is because i have to do it because the founder insists that otherwise they won't go with i've seen it with them so exactly you'll do it for one year right you'll say hey i'll do it for a year i always time limit it now because i just can't i mean i can't make a 10-year obligation you know it's typically like one or two years and then you know we'll see it doesn't mean i'll roll off in two years but um but i but i need to have the expectation set up and and the reality is if the company can perform well for another two years they'll be at a different stage and maybe they won't you know need my help as much so the two most valuable pieces of private equity that i own is a company called dcg and it's a company called netscope and collectively it's like billion dollars worth of stock that i own what i'm on the board of one i'm not on the board of the other anymore and i text with these guys maybe once every two or three months at best so you know completely confirming david your point that great founders are just n of one individuals you know barry silbert sanjay barry next level guys but that's very different than the the series a playbook because when i ran institutional money i'm telling you there is a pressure to be involved and show some value and i do think that there is a level of judgment on the ceo that has happened now maybe that's changed historically but i think that's the single biggest pivot that one would exploit if you were tiger or co2 or d1 stepping into the early stage game which is to essentially make it a feature and it's not dissimilar to when dst and yuri milner entered the late stage round you know what was his big differentiation i'll take common stock and i won't take a board seat i do not need a board to see it to be influential it seems so counterintuitive and so against the grain but he acknowledged what was this thing that up until that point was true which is common and preferred converged in price per share so buying common in a late stage company was the same as buying preferred you know that's something you should explain for a second people don't know this but add an ip yeah well let's start with it so when you set up a company you have a price per share of the common stock and then a price per share that the series a investor has the series a investor is buying preferred shares that actually looks more like debt than equity and what i mean by that is there's typically a coupon there's a rate of return there's accumulated dividends all these features give it a certain price per share and the common has none of those features and so it has a lower protective provisions and that gap is typically around 20 to 1 when you set up a company okay and that's what allows you to hire employees and give them very very cheap options with embedded upside then what happens is you raise more and more of these series b series c series d these preference stack right prefer shares build up but the value of the comment keeps rising too and by the time you go public the gap converges what yuri realized was hey wait a minute i'm buying a company a year or 18 months before it goes public the price of the common and the price of the preferred are roughly the same so you're going to have to spend more money on that and i think that's probably what's going to happen but i'm going to have to spend more money on the first one because it's going to be a lot of money and i'm going to have to spend more money on the second one because it's going to be a lot of money and i'm going to have to spend more money on the third one because it's going to be a lot of money and i'm going to have to spend more money on the third one because it's going to be a lot of money and i'm going to have to spend more money on the third one because it's going to be a lot of money and i'm going to have to spend more money on the third one because it's going to be a lot of money and i'm going to have to spend more money on the third one because it's going to be a lot of money and i'm that you are and i'm just going to get out of your way and leave you alone governance and unbundling the governance and advice piece from the capital piece but you're going to still need that governance and advice piece i think i think it could work yeah i mean i think there's a lot of great founders or they're founders who start young and experience become great and the smart ones listen to advice on the way and they they seek out people who've done it before and so you know yes they may be an n01 business by the growth stage but that doesn't mean they don't need any help whatsoever at the series a stage such a good observation yeah and look i think there's been i think there's been an evolution of silicon valley i'd actually say there's been like three distinct phases in the venture capital world and i remember all of them so you go back to the the night the late 90s okay when you had this mentality on the part of vcs that if a company became successful you would just automatically replace the founders right you go bring professional ceo upgrade that was a disaster okay and and that's when founders fund peter came in i think founded um founders fund in 2003 and the reason they called it founders fund is to indicate they were going to be pro founder and they would never replace the founder and they would let you do whatever you wanted and i think you want to tell the backstory of the sean parker stuff and how that happened yeah i mean so basically both peter and sean parker had you know experiences they felt were very negative with sequoia and by the way i have great relationships with sequoia roloff who worked with us at paypal is there and i think they've evolved as a firm so i'm not calling them out or anything but but both sean and peter felt like sequoia pushed out and replaced and so with plaques though specifically there are a couple of different companies involved but when peter was uh ceo of paypal as well that you know he felt he felt that pressure as well so when they then founded as two of the four founding partners of founders from back in 2003 the whole point was we are going to be pro founder you're never going to replace you will you do whatever you want i think that was that was phase two and that became i think the dominant model and so becoming pro founder with now table stakes and i think the third phase has been you know what andreessen harwitz has now done with this massive like the services and the value add which is that we're going to basically not only be pro founder but we're going to like bring all these resources to help you and that's the era we're in right now i mean from the from our perspective like as as craft i mean look it's not in our interest to get into any dispute with a founder and if we feel like our advice isn't being taken well we just back off you know of course we're profounder like we don't want the control we're not control investors and you know if it's if it's if it's becoming frictional we'd rather just get out of the way no it's just not worth it the underlying thing that you're not saying though is because you have enough of a fund that's large enough where you can have enough bets where any of these any of these things to the upside is a total needle mover but anything that goes to zero doesn't actually diminish the fund or impair it meaningfully so there is no upside to getting engaged in really being non-anti-founder so yeah i think it's a i think it's a part of a business model but one thing i want to tell you about parker parker was single-handedly incredibly responsible for keeping zuck in the seat when he was president of facebook because parker wrote you know uh this structure that really allowed mark to keep control super voting shares sax to to add on to your your point i think that there's been uh so so it there seems to be a bifurcation around the services model or not but the fourth thing that seems to have happened and you guys tell me if you're going to be able to get a lot of money out of it and you're going to be if I'm wrong on this, but it plays into the tiger global story.

What when I was when I got that term sheet for my Series B at Climate Corp, Marc Andreessen, I was trying to raise like 25 to $30 million, and Marc Andreessen was like, we're gonna give you a term sheet for $40 million, more than you were asking for. Because we want you to use that extra capital to go faster to go harder to grab the market because we have this big in businesses that grabbing the market.

And that seems to have also become a bit of a mainstay, but not just a mainstay, but now almost like the kind of standard pitch that a lot of the later stage guys are taking, which is like, here's so much capital that it helps you make the market. And then the SoftBank Vision Fund kind of took that to the extreme with $100 billion raise and Tiger Global, I think last year, have publicly said they deployed about $15 billion into startups, where a startup may in a natural cycle kind of evolved to needing $70 million raise or $100 million raise.

And they're like writing checks for 250 or 300 and saying this extra capital gives you $100 million raise. And they're like writing checks for 250 or 300 and saying this extra capital gives you the ability to move faster. And the reason is, the faster a business moves, the higher the multiple they get on their revenue.

So the higher the growth rate, the higher the multiple. So if you can deploy capital faster, we can find a business where we can pump money through you to get it out the door faster, your multiple goes up and Tiger's model was let's just get the multiples up. There's multiple expansion and growth.

So we'll make money two ways when the company goes public in 18 to 24 months. Obviously, when the markets end up tanking and all those multiples compress, no growth rate is going to solve that problem for you. But having more capital than maybe you were thinking or asking for also seems to have become kind of attacking.

I don't know if that if you view that as kind of this fourth evolution, but that certainly wasn't the case 20 years ago, and VCs were being careful about is it a $6 million round or an $8 million round? What's the right amount of capital? And nowadays, it's much more about take more than you need.

I'll say there was a 3.5 in there, which is you saw a little bit of lack of governance or superpowers on the part of like some incompetent founders or bad founders. Just you know, whether it's we work there knows whatever, too much control, not enough governance, things go off the rail.

But you know, based on this discussion, I really think this bifurcates when it's a first time founder versus a second time founder in what I see because I have been doing board training for seed companies where I will just have three founders sit in on each other's first board meetings.

We do one board meeting each and I train them how board meetings works and what I experienced with Sequoia on my board and other boards. And first time founders like the 10th time I've been on board meetings, I've been on board meetings with Sequoia on my board and other boards.

And first time founders, like the tactical stuff, how to run a board meeting legal HR hiring partnerships, go to market strategies, man, it is all tactical all the time. And then when I've been on with second and third time founders, you know, they really are like, here's all the materials.

Here's what I'm thinking about. What do we think strategically, so they go from the tactical level to the strategic admission level awfully quick. And they actually seem to enjoy having those four meetings a year. Whereas the first time founders really need to have six to 10 a year in those in that first, you know, year two of a company.

That's my experience, I realized in this discussion, that the market has really meaningfully changed, meaning when I was actively investing, even in the early 2000s, or sorry, in the in the, you know, 2011 1213. There was a culture where if you underperformed, you would get replaced. And I think David, what you just spoke about, which I guess is true, has really changed, which is if you're running a multi multi billion dollar fund, where every check is $20 million, the upside is billions, but the downside is negative 20.

There's just no point. And so you know, Sequoia used to be known as a very, very, very tough, tough, tough place for CEOs that were underperforming. Now they got a $9 billion fund. Now you have maybe 20 years ago, it doesn't matter anymore. Not No, not even even 10 less than 10 years ago.

I think it was, I think it was known as a very tough demanding place. I think benchmark was known as a very tough demanding place because the money was much more finite. Right? Bench benchmark still still that case. Expectation called they never they never grew their fund size. No, Jason, you're not you're not hearing me.

I am I think what's happening is I listen, I had Sequoia on my board and I worked at Sequoia. So there's difference between high expectations, which I think all these folks have to have, and the willingness to replace the founder as CEO. And what I'm saying is every VC claims this, but there were a handful of VCs that had the courage to do this.

I mean, famously, Mike Morrison, John Doerr, you know, had it out with Larry. Larry, at the end of the day, he was the CEO of Sequoia. He was the CEO of Sequoia. He was the CEO of Sequoia. And he was the CEO of Sequoia. And he was the CEO of Sequoia.

And he was the CEO of Sequoia. And he was the CEO of Sequoia. And he was the CEO of Sequoia. And he was the CEO of Sequoia. And he was at the you know, right right after this round, like either go public, you know, get your business model or give us our money back famously at Google.

So they're not they're willing to draw a line in the sand. I think that that has fundamentally changed at all these organizations because the fund sizes have gone up. And the and the mathematical reality of venture capital has changed something else you're missing, which is you got to remember Moritz and door were not operators.

And now these companies are being run. Ruloff is running Sequoia. And he's an operator and he was there. So the changing of the guard and Marc Andreessen and Ben Horowitz were operators. So the operator class behaves very differently. I disagree with you. I think that it fun respectfully. No, hold on.

I think that fun size dictates his behavior more than any singular other feature. When you're running a $9 billion fund, you just don't sweat that changing of the CEO and David said it really well. You just say okay, I'll cut our losses and move on. We don't lose. I think it's more about the culture change in Silicon Valley of a bunch of MBA finance people.

And I think that's the key to success. And I think that's the key to success. And I think that's the key to success. And I think that's the key to success. And I think that's the key to success. Never run a company now moving and running companies. But you know, let's move on to the next.

Any closing thoughts on this one? Well, just I mean, Jason, you start to make this point that if you're a founder, and you want to eventually run a great public company, when you IPO, guess what, you're going to have governments. And what I've seen big time, right? I mean, there's just Delaware law, there's just a lot of like expectations around being a public company.

And so if you don't have a board, you know, and you're not constituting one until you go public, there's gonna be a massive amount of cleanup that you have to do. I mean, that's what I've seen. And so you'll end up scrambling to create a board, I think that a board serves so many purposes early on of giving you advice and giving you structure of providing support, help services, you can still remain in control while getting those things.

And I'm just, I'm just skeptical that like, if you form a company with completely passive VCs, you don't even serve on a board, like, you're gonna have to do a lot of cleanup later, I'd say at a minimum. Totally. I think that that's true, too. Totally. I'm not a by the way, I'm not saying I advocate this.

But I just think that the reality is that if these large late stage crossover firms really step into the early stage, I think they could really build a big book of business. I do think there are a lot of founders who would love to just be given the money and just to be left alone.

I'm not saying that they think they know that it's better for them. But on the margin, just to be able to be left alone. Now, what has changed maybe those everybody's going to be very hands off just because all the fun sizes have exploded. So at that point, then you know, what is the difference between Sequoia and D one time will tell, I just know that like, when I see a founder doing something that I think could risk the company going off the rails, I'll say so.

And then, you know, if it keeps happening, and situation gets worse, I'll say so again, I might mention the third time I might not. At a certain point, I'm just like, maybe after like two times, I'm just like, they don't listen to me. That's fine. It's their decision, their company, their decision, they go off the rails, their problem, you know, we'll move on to the next one.

I mean, that's the reality. Sometimes founders have to learn by doing it, like sometimes their intent, and you know what, they could be right, and you could be wrong, too. So it's hard as a, as a it's hard as a board member. You know, that's why I'm very judicious in giving advice as a board member now.

And I'm on a bunch of boards and do we're training, because when the rule of was on my board, and he still is, you know, he would ask great questions. And he would be very thoughtful about, hey, have you thought about this? Or when I got advice from dog or American more rates directly, you know, Doug would say, Hey, well, can you share the two year plan with me?

And I'd say, you know, we haven't built a plan. And he said, Well, you know, Jason, you know, hope is not a plan. Let's make a plan. And let's discuss, you know, the milestones along here. And it was amazing to have that level of thoughtfulness around total vision as a founder.

I love I mean, as a founder, I love getting advice. And I think you got to be really dumb not to seek it out. I mean, I when I was a founder, I would even though I was sort of competing with any off, I would meet with him and I would like an amazing advice.

Just recently, we did it wasn't like an official board meeting because we're off isn't on our board, but he's a big investor in one of my incubations, Colin. And we just did a meeting with him and and, and the get it in every time. Now, to be confused with all in, but no, no, we had a trademark.

It was it was me and Axel, who's the co founder, Colin and, and roll off. And we had like an amazing meeting where we got like, I'd say amazing advice. advice from roll off that like, focused us. And it wasn't that I didn't know these things. But it's just like, when you're in the weed, sometimes, you don't actually crystallize, focus on the most important thing.

And I came out of that meeting, meeting, feeling like, okay, real off just refocused us on the most important thing. And it was immensely valuable. And you've got to be like, dumb not to stick that out, no matter what stage you're at. Because I seek it out today. Yeah, and think about this, David, you're in the thick of things.

He's on squares board, he's on other boards, he's got a picture of the entire playing field. It's like somebody who's the coach of 15 NBA teams. And you're like the coach of one, he's seeing things on other NBA teams that they're doing in methodologies and best practices that you're just not going to see.

So I mean, again, and then if you look at the great founders, TK used to come to me and say, Hey, you know, this is the thing I'm going to be doing at the next board meeting, or here's the thing, can we jam out? And he would just ask for a jam.

So, you know, he's like, I'm going to be doing this. And then he came up with that term, and three or four people would get together and just jam and talk for five hours about the product. It was awesome. All right, let's go on to David Sachs his favorite section of the show.

Science with the Sultan of Science himself. Oh, I thought you were gonna say his friend with Paul Graham. Oh, enough with that. Oh, we can't talk about that. That was fighting you have to you if you are engaged in the science segment, David Sachs and PG are in a fight.

All right, let's cover it. Here's the deal. If David Sachs is engaged during the science portion of the class, we will let him have his fight. As the as the teacher here. Tell us a little bit about stem cells and this HIV story. I was gonna tell sex that the earth is round.

Okay, it's not flat. I don't care. Yeah. How does that affect Solana? So sorry, the story that I think we wanted to you guys wanted to cover today with the HIV story, which incredible. Yeah, I suggested this topic. So I'm interested. Explain it to us. HIV is a retrovirus.

Meaning once you get infected, it doesn't go away. He doesn't care. He's he's he's he's flipping through his political notes to figure out what did he miss saying that he was supposed to say today. He just flipped over to Ben Shapiro. He's listening to Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris in conversation.

Go ahead. Okay, okay. The the HIV being cured headline. You know, we can dive into it for two minutes. But HIV is a retrovirus. When you get infected with HIV, it stays in your body forever. It actually ends up living inside of your immune cells. That's what makes it such an interesting, challenging virus.

And it destroys those immune cells. So over time, you end up getting AIDS. And the way it enters the immune cells is through a specific protein. Some people have a genetic mutation, where if there's a change in the their DNA, and that protein is different, HIV cannot enter their immune cells, and they can actually they are naturally immune to HIV.

So that's why we're talking about HIV. And so what's happened is found found apparently in white, Northern Europeans. Yeah, like Norwegians, I think. Exactly. And anyway, so what's the interesting study that was done? All immune cells are made from stem cells in your bone marrow. And so you know, all the white blood cells that we have that fight off our diseases come from our bone marrow.

And when you get a blood cancer, sometimes you end up getting so severe that you have to actually wipe out all the immune cells in your body and give your and you end up with a bone marrow transplant. So you get new bone marrow put in your blood cells put in.

And hopefully, if you can survive the therapy and survive that treatment, those that new bone marrow will produce new immune cells and your body will recover and you'll be cured of your blood cancer. So what happened is people had HIV. And when you get this, this bone marrow transplant, you end up you know, they give you radiation and chemo and they wipe out all your blood cells.

And and then they give you this bone marrow transplant. So they selectively chose bone marrow stem cells that came from people that have the genetic mutation that that prevents HIV. So then when these HIV patients that got blood cancer, got a bone marrow transplant with this mutation in it, they were cured of HIV.

And so it's a pretty profound kind of demonstration of what we already knew, which is that this genetic mutation can can prevent HIV. And there are a lot of therapies that are underway right now, to actually use gene editing to induce that mutation in people's blood cells and in their bone marrow without needing it to give them a whole transplant.

The first guy that did it, the first guy that did it was German, right? Or he was in Germany, I think, and he unfortunately passed away. They cured his his HIV AIDS, but he unfortunately had a relapse of the leukemia that killed him. But I think all three cases of people that that have been quote unquote cured, have been these leukemia patients.

But I'll say two things, two things about the future of this kind of possibility. Number one is you don't need to get a bone marrow transplant to have this mutation induced in your cells to prevent this infection from kind of occurring in your body, you can use gene editing tools to do that.

And so we are now developing gene editing therapies, where rather than go and get a whole bone marrow transplant, to cure your HIV, we can actually edit yourselves, those edited cells will now be resistant, and you will be resolved of HIV. The second thing is the way that they gave people the bone marrow transplant, the way they created those stem cells for the bone marrow transplant was from umbilical cord blood from from newborns, which is very rich in stem cells.

And this is a traditional way of kind of giving people stem cell based therapies is you go and source stem cells from another body, or your own body, which are called autologous stem cells, but like, I just want to say one thing, what's really interesting in the future is not going to be about pulling other people's stem cells into your body, and finding them from, you know, fetal blood or what have you, we now have the technology, which I've talked about multiple times on the show called Yamanaka factors, where theoretically, we can take your cells from your own body, turn them into stem cells, grow them in a lab and use that as the therapy that's called autologous stem cell therapy.

And rather than use stem cells, we're trying to find them and, you know, figure them out where they are in your body and pull them out, we can actually do stem cells from your body. And that's like, you know, 15 years out is autologous induced stem cell therapy, where you actually make your own stem cells, and then give yourself all sorts of therapies, not just bone marrow transplants, but you can heal lots of tissue in the body using these stem cell systems.

We don't really hear about HIV AIDS anymore. And that article, I think it said that there's about 37 million people around the world that have HIV AIDS. And it's incredible, actually, the amount of progress that science has made in this disease. I remember when I was growing up, it was made to be like this incredible boogeyman.

Yeah. And it really governed like a lot of social norms at the time, because we were still discovering what HIV AIDS was. And, you know, how, you know, how do you think about sexual promiscuity, you know, from a moral and ethical perspective? I think it had a huge impact on my generation.

Absolutely, it did. It was a death sentence. They made us paranoid. So so here's what's happened. therapies have gotten so good at suppressing suppressing the virus. If the virus is suppressed far enough, even though you are always going to be infected, if it's suppressed far enough, the WHO and the FDA have both said you can still have unprotected sex and not transmit HIV.

And so even though there are plenty of people out there that might be having unprotected sex with HIV, the therapies have suppressed the viral load to the point that they're not transmitting it actively. And so that's been the big breakthrough in science over the last decade. And then they also had these prep pills, right, which people could take proactive if they thought they might, you know, find themselves but I mean, Chamath, the you and I lived in a generation where I mean, it was the end of things.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it was the end of days and they're like, I don't know, it was a single biggest thing that I was that I was taught in sex ed classes to be afraid of, be really scared at all costs. And then the problem that it that it created was like, you know, in countries that had a large Catholic population, you know, the Catholic Church was so you know, evil, they had they were undecided on.

They were the opposite. Right. They told people in Africa to not use condoms. When AIDS was rampant. It was the biggest evil. Second biggest evil the Catholic Church did in modern history. Obviously, the first we know I have a contribution to the segment. Oh, God, yeah. What? I know, I just promised your point.

My relationship. Look, I remember how scared people were of AIDS, you know, back in the 1980s when this came up. And I remember that there was a head of the NIH who even whipped up people's fear hold on people's fear by saying that even casual even casual contact within the same household can spread it.

And you know, Anthony, yes, we know, dedicated his life to trying to solve and reduce the suffering of software AIDS and HIV. No, in the 1980s. In the 1980s. He was the face of government difference towards AIDS. And he spread fear and was medically wrong about it. go check the records he was a screw up then and he's going to leave now on it he worked tirelessly he didn't work tirelessly on it jay cal i think sax is right in the sense that like what we thought we knew back then turned out to be wrong and i think that's a really important point you know particularly in science it's a process of discovery what we thought we knew back then turned out it was all a hypothesis it's all a thesis until it's proven or disproven and that's the case read andrew sullivan i mean you know fauci was absolutely the enemy public enemy number one of the of the gay movement who is it tony crick yeah well it was a tony crick tony perkins there was actually a debate that fauci was in uh on aids where a gay actress literally said to him i hate you and if you read andrew sullivan's blog he will talk about how he remembers back in the 1980s that fauci was sort of public enemy number one in the gay community because of his position on this during the reagan administration and so it is a lot of civil disobedience act up et cetera remember and he responded by putting massive resources into this so i think you know if he was that's not listening listen to andrew sullivan on this andrew sullivan he is not that right wait andrew sullivan is the reason why more than any other public intellectual why we have marriage equality today he is number one he advocated for marriage equality and in the new republic made the case for it before anybody else and popularized that argument i'm a fan of his writing uh let's not so don't try and portray him as a far right wing or whatever portray you're going to fauci's intent anyway you want to believe that fauci's an evil person i think i think you and many other people have mysteriously forgotten who fauci really is okay you think i know the conspiracy that you think fauci's intent is to you know cover up the uh and he intentionally was working against uh solving for hiv that's ridiculous do you think i would say intentionally do you think fauci had good intentions if you inferred it sax do you think fauci had good intentions i don't i don't really care about his intentions i just want to look at his actions it's amazing it's amazing to me it's amazing to me that a public official who was so wrong back then in the 1980s and 1990s on the public health crisis of our time would just be given a free pass and along comes a new public health crisis the last couple years and he's been completely wrong about that too so why are you giving this guy a free pass i don't get it hey sax in a cloud of uncertainty in a time of war do you think that leaders need to show strong intent and clear signals or do you think that they should be wishy-washy because they don't know enough i think they should just be right and if they're trying the best with what they have with the information they have at the time okay well yeah there's some forgiveness for uh for making mistakes but when you're constantly wrong maybe it's time to get somebody else in there that's true and but and fauci by the way fauci app with respect to code we talked about it before 100 participated in a suppression of the investigation into the origins of covid there was an active attempt to suppress that come on you know that the foia email show it it's a good science segment i do want to give a shout out to the the researchers uh who actually did this with this woman uh in new york it's pretty freaking incredible what's incredible is that they did it with um uh hiv patients yeah it's a really kind of like thoughtfully designed experiment um incredibly thoughtful yeah and it's been four years so i mean this has been baking for a long time by the way as i zoom out and hear you guys talk about what hiv was like you know back in the day and the fear around it i i do think that 30 40 years from now given the tools we have with induced stem cells and cell-based therapies and there are hundreds of cell-based therapies coming to market over the next few years they're all in late-stage clinical trials as well as gene editing i think hopefully and i'm optimistic that one day we will look back at cancer and aging in the same way that we're talking about hiv today and that both of those diseases can and will be resolved with the tools that we're developing through science and you know there's there's going to be bumps along the road but man i you know it's so clear that he's going to go sax go look i think i think what freeburg just said actually is really important and inspiring and i think it's great and i was kind of joking around with the fauci thing i didn't expect it to become a tangent so i don't need to keep going on and on about that wait do you see him try to wait do you see him in editing try to change his position no i'm not going to change anything in editing keep that whole segment i'm just saying i didn't can you use a can i do a voice if you hadn't become so argumentative we wouldn't have spent five minutes on it if i'm correct your incorrect position that fauci's intent was on ramp please because i got to fly to europe go okay here we go david sachs and paul graham have gotten into it uh it's a battle for the ages and the stakes are so low the stakes are so high and the animosity is so high because the stakes are so low uh here we go david sacks before we go david wait before this uh does phil helmuth qualify this as a billionaire battle or a quality billionaire literally he revealed the billionaire if you follow phil helmuth's account it's being d.a greatest being doug greatest on twitter follow being d.a greatest to get that phil no phil helmuth outed he outed on his twitter our friend his new billionaire bestie is um his bill which he stole bestie from me i used to call everybody bestie he just co-opted it uh like he co-opted me calling chamath the dictator but i'll tell the dictator origin story later is stanley from doordash stanley tang co-founder chief product officer of doordad great guy really great phil hummus latest truffle exactly because he found it okay here we go so if you can introduce him to paul graham go ahead all right here here here's the issue to pick what's your beef here we go actually i did not seek out this beef sax vendetta section of the no no no no listen pg waited into my tweets he came after me waited yeah he did waiting by the way i love it please any billionaires out there who want to like debate like come waiting into my tweets mark cuban did it make a made a big ass of himself i don't want to deter these guys from waiting in because it's great here's what's basically happened is here's what's basically happened is here's what's basically happened is i tweeted a video of all these i tweeted a video of all these i tweeted a video of all these multi-millionaire celebrity hypocrites multi-millionaire celebrity hypocrites multi-millionaire celebrity hypocrites partying massless at the super bowl and partying massless at the super bowl and partying massless at the super bowl and then meanwhile the next day my three kids then meanwhile the next day my three kids then meanwhile the next day my three kids have to go to school in california have to go to school in california have to go to school in california wearing their masks that is wearing their masks that is wearing their masks that is ridiculous okay it makes no sense we all ridiculous okay it makes no sense we all ridiculous okay it makes no sense we all know that okay any sane person knows that that's what i tweeted about i don't know why of all issues that was triggering the pg but he had to come in and say well they were all partying outdoors it's like really uh it looks to me like they're in a skybox and if it has three walls and a ceiling i call that a room um but in any event that wasn't he was he was misinformed because the rule of the super bowl was that if you were not eating and drinking anyone under over the age of two after you're wearing a mask um so you know my point stands i just want to air so here here's where things kind of went south is um is so that i tweeted uh blink twice you know paul and and here's the thing i wasn't totally trying to be snarky with that comment um here here's why i said that is because explain what that means i didn't understand that what does that mean blink twice well it means like are you you're a captor you're being held kidnapped by these concepts that you have to wear no you're being held hostage by somebody and the reason why i said that is because you're being held hostage by somebody and the and the reason why i said that is because you're being held hostage by somebody and the reason why i said that is because you're being held hostage by somebody and the reason why i said that is because you're being held hostage by somebody and the reason why i said that is because is is look if if pg had just is because is is look if if pg had just is because is is look if if pg had just been some crazy dumb person i never would been some crazy dumb person i never would been some crazy dumb person i never would have said that the fact is that pg have said that the fact is that pg have said that the fact is that pg is smart he writes extremely well is smart he writes extremely well is smart he writes extremely well publishes a lot of interesting things publishes a lot of interesting things publishes a lot of interesting things he's an independent thinker so it almost he's an independent thinker so it almost he's an independent thinker so it almost seemed to me like somebody is holding him seemed to me like somebody is holding him seemed to me like somebody is holding him hostage here because how can this hostage here because how can this hostage here because how can this really smart person really smart person really smart person be making this case anyway it kind of be making this case anyway it kind of be making this case anyway it kind of went south from there went south from there went south from there so oh i have no desire to continue the so oh i have no desire to continue the so oh i have no desire to continue the and meanwhile kendall jenner wore and meanwhile kendall jenner wore and meanwhile kendall jenner wore north face shoes to justin bieber's uh north face shoes to justin bieber's uh north face shoes to justin bieber's uh yeah can you believe it she knows that yeah can you believe it she knows that yeah can you believe it she knows that he hates north face how did he do that he hates north face how did he do that he hates north face how did he do that gossip gossip gossip all right so this gossip gossip gossip all right so this gossip gossip gossip all right so this has been sax's vendetta corner for the has been sax's vendetta corner for the has been sax's vendetta corner for the week uh can we make this a regular week uh can we make this a regular week uh can we make this a regular segment but that's what i just did i'm segment but that's what i just did i'm segment but that's what i just did i'm naming the segment sax's corner but i naming the segment sax's corner but i naming the segment sax's corner but i want to say i want to stay on the main want to say i want to stay on the main want to say i want to stay on the main issue here which is issue here which is issue here which is oh please let's do it every week but oh please let's do it every week but oh please let's do it every week but yes but look am i wrong about this yes but look am i wrong about this yes but look am i wrong about this mask hypocrisy that's going on how in mask hypocrisy that's going on how in mask hypocrisy that's going on how in the world are kids picture of sax in the world are kids picture of sax in the world are kids picture of sax in the mess no no no no sax in the the mess no no no sax in the the mess no no no sax in the mess jay cal stop i want to air 100 mess jay cal stop i want to air 100 mess jay cal stop i want to air 100 support for sax on this statement i support for sax on this statement i support for sax on this statement i totally agree with you on the mask totally agree with you on the mask totally agree with you on the mask hypocrisy as well as the mass mandates hypocrisy as well as the mass mandates hypocrisy as well as the mass mandates in schools i think it's ridiculous we in schools i think it's ridiculous we in schools i think it's ridiculous we pivoted we've pivoted so far away from pivoted we've pivoted so far away from pivoted we've pivoted so far away from first principle thinking on this stuff first principle thinking on this stuff first principle thinking on this stuff it's nuts i totally agree with you it's nuts i totally agree with you it's nuts i totally agree with you completely and um on this point on you completely and um on this point on you completely and um on this point on you wasting your time fighting with people wasting your time fighting with people wasting your time fighting with people on twitter my personal advice to you as a on twitter my personal advice to you as a on twitter my personal advice to you as a friend is just cut it out but do what friend is just cut it out but do what friend is just cut it out but do what you gotta do buddy you gotta do buddy you gotta do buddy but totally agree oh it's entertainment but totally agree oh it's entertainment but totally agree oh it's entertainment all right everybody for the dictator all right everybody for the dictator all right everybody for the dictator himself chamath palihapitiya himself chamath palihapitiya himself chamath palihapitiya rain man yeah david sachs and rain man yeah david sachs and rain man yeah david sachs and the sultan of science if you see him out the sultan of science if you see him out the sultan of science if you see him out and about ask for a selfie sultan of and about ask for a selfie sultan of and about ask for a selfie sultan of science love selfies he does love you science love selfies he does love you science love selfies he does love you boys boys boys see you all next time on the all-in pod see you all next time on the all-in pod see you all next time on the all-in pod love you besties bye-bye love you besties bye-bye love you besties bye-bye we'll let your winners ride we'll let your winners ride we'll let your winners ride rain man david sachs and it said we open source it to the and it said we open source it to the and it said we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it fans and they've just gone crazy with it fans and they've just gone crazy with it love you guys love you guys love you guys love you guys besties are gone besties are gone besties are gone that's my uh dog taking a that's my uh dog taking a that's my uh dog taking a relationship oh man we should all just get a room and just we should all just get a room and just we should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy because they're have one big huge orgy because they're have one big huge orgy because they're all just useless it's like this like all just useless it's like this like all just useless it's like this like sexual tension but they just need to sexual tension but they just need to sexual tension but they just need to release them out release them out release them out what you're about to be what you're about to be what you're about to be european european european we need to get merchies