Well, does depression disqualify a pastor? It's a serious question. It's a very heavy question and it comes to us from a podcast listener named Kyle. Hello Pastor John. At what point, if any, does depression and/or joylessness disqualify an elder? Or when might these become reasons for an elder to step down out of a desire to most wisely serve his congregation?

What would you say to Kyle, Pastor John? Let me begin by affirming that Kyle is right to suggest that there is a point at which joylessness does disqualify an elder. A lot of people don't think of that. So he's right to point this out. But we have to be so careful here because joy is subjective.

It's a subjective reality. It's no less real and no less important for that. But it manifests itself in various ways. It manifests itself in degrees of presence. And so putting our finger on it is not easy. And so I think we should be slow and careful before we declare anybody unqualified for their ministry because of it.

So let me just point to, I don't know, three or four things that Kyle might take into consideration as he ponders this or the rest of us. Number one, Hebrews 13, 17 says, "Obey your leaders, submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will have to give an account.

Let them do this with joy." So let your leaders lead, let your pastor and elders lead with joy, not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you. In other words, a chronically joyless pastor is of no advantage, no benefit to his people, which means there comes a point where for the people's sake, he should step down or step back.

So this is just to say, Kyle, thank you for taking this seriously. Hebrews 13, 17 says so. Number two, there are two places where Paul says that his whole ministry is devoted to the joy of his people. Second Corinthians 1.24, "Not that we lord it over your faith, but we work with you for your joy." And Philippians 1.25, "I know that I will remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of the faith." So that was Paul's apostolic mission, to seek the joy of other people.

And I think it's the calling on every pastor and every elder to work for the joy of their people. And if their own inability to rejoice in the Lord hinders that, there may come a time when they are not able to fulfill that calling. Third, the pastor and elder who aim to help their people obey the Lord will need to help them rejoice in tribulation, because that's what it says in Romans 5.3.

We rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character, character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame because the love of God is poured out in our hearts. So elders are called to be examples to the flock, 1 Peter 5, and if we can't rejoice in our own sufferings, like Romans 5.3 says, how are we going to help our people obey the scriptures, that is, fulfill our calling, to set an example for them and help them?

One last illustration of how this works, 2 Corinthians 8, 1 and 2. We want you to know, brothers, about the grace of God that was given among the churches of Macedonia, for in a severe test of affliction, their abundance of joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity.

Now what that text says is that love that is overflowing in a wealth of generosity to those in need around us, love is the overflow of abundance of joy in God, not joy in overcoming poverty, not joy in escaping affliction, because both of those are mentioned right there alongside joy.

So an elder who wants his people to love other people, that is to overflow in joy for them in the midst of affliction, in the midst of poverty, has to be able to set the example for that himself. So here are a few concluding observations that might help Kyle and others find some guidance of when to step down or when to step back.

Number one, be sure to distinguish between a temporary dullness of spirit and a growing bitterness of spirit. Both dullness and bitterness can rob us of joy, but what a world of difference. Dullness may mean we're wrestling with nature, something in our bodies or in our circumstances. Bitterness means that we're giving in to sin and the people know the difference.

They'll taste the difference. The broken hearted pastor who's in a season of dullness will cry out to God affectionately for his mercy and many of his people will deeply appreciate his cry. They'll resonate with it. They'll be thankful for an honest, heartfelt cry from their pastor's soul to God.

But the pastor who is giving in to joylessness out of anger and bitterness, he does nobody any good. Number two, seek to discern the roots of your loss of joy. If there is hidden sin, for example, it will definitely rob a pastor of his spiritual delights in God. No pastor should tolerate that in his own soul.

He should make war on his sin. And if he can't get the victory, then he needs to draw his elders into it with him, his fellow elders and confess his need for help. But there may be other hard things besides sin that his elders see, and they're going to cut him a lot of slack here while they help him get through this season.

Third suggestion, a key question is whether you can still preach the tone of the text in your loss of joy, or is your own emotional state such that it controls all of your demeanor? Here's what I mean. I found over the decades of preaching that even though my private life at times was filled with sorrow, real heartache, and I had to preach the next Sunday, I found that the text really did in that moment create its own emotions in me that were real and authentic.

Can you still do that? Can that happen for you? This is not hypocrisy. This is not fake it till you make it. This is a real supernatural experience of emotion by the Holy Spirit wrought by that text in the hour of preaching. And just two more possible suggestions. Another key question is, are you able still to feel sweet affection for your people?

Do they sense that? If so, your season of darkness may be a balm to them because they will know that your affection is rooted in your confidence in the gospel. And the last thing I would say is how long has the struggle of seeming darkness or dullness or heaviness, joylessness gone on?

That matters. And out of all those five suggestions there at the end, out of all those questions, the answer might be that you would ask for a sabbatical, or it might be that you'd seek help in some other way. It might be that resignation from the eldership would be a last resort.

And I think it should be a last resort, especially for the vocational elder whose resignation would be a huge upheaval for the people. So share your struggle with a trusted friend and see whether what I've said here or other things they might point out, whether that gives you wisdom for this season.

Very good and careful words, Pastor John. Thank you. And we talked about the dark season that you faced, a midlife crisis of sorts back in episode 1173. My Midlife Crisis and Counsel for Yours is a great episode, 1173 in the archive. And Hebrews 13, 17 is such a rich passage and that has come up several times in the APJ archives.

Here's just a few examples. It came up in episode 1143 to discourage pastors and their wives. It also appeared in episode 433, should I commit to one church? And also in episode 297, do podcast preachers make my pastor irrelevant? All three of those episodes, Hebrews 13, 17 comes up.

Over at our online home, you can explore all of those old episodes and scan a list of our most popular ones, read full transcripts, even send us a question of your own. Go to DesiringGod.org/AskPastorJohn and get new episodes delivered to you three times per week. Subscribe to the Ask Pastor John podcast and your favorite podcast app.

Well, I'm not sure what's coming up next time, but whatever it is, we'll see you on Friday. I'm your host Tony Reinke. Thanks for listening to the Ask Pastor John podcast with longtime author and pastor John Piper. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.