Gift cards aren't just for last minute gifting, they can actually save you thousands on almost all your everyday spending. Today, we'll break down how to make the most of this trillion dollar gift card market by exploring all the secret strategies for buying discounted gift cards, stacking savings with rewards programs, and even turning gift cards into a lucrative side hustle.

From groceries to Amazon to travel and beyond, you will learn actionable tips to save big and spend smarter. And who better to join me than my friend Logan, who runs one of the biggest gift card brokerages, Aligned Incentives. I'm Chris Hutchins. If you enjoy this episode, please share it with a friend or leave a comment or a review.

And if you wanna keep upgrading your life, money, and travel, click follow or subscribe. Logan, what do you think the biggest misconception is about the gift card market? - The biggest misconception is right there in the name. People think of it as a way to give a gift. I professionally handle gift cards.

I touch gift cards all the time. I never give gift cards as gifts. The best way to use a gift card, the way I use them, is as a way to save money. It's a way to get an additional discount on stuff you're gonna buy anyway. - So I guess that operates on the assumption that gift cards should cost less than the actual value of the gift card?

- Yes. You should never pay full price for a gift card, which I think is what most people's experience is. They go into a Walgreens because they need to get a gift for a party that they forgot that they were supposed to bring a gift to, and then they pay full price for a gift card off the rack to give to someone else.

- If you looked at all your spending, forget your mortgage, rent, car, things that you probably can't play with gift cards, what percent do you think you're saving by taking advantage of gift cards for all your regular spending? - I think that around 15% is probably a good rule of thumb, that most stuff is somewhere between 10 and 20% off.

All my purchases that aren't the mortgage, but my groceries, my Amazon, all that, that stuff is all at least 10% off. - Okay, so that's thousands of dollars a year, I assume? - For sure, yeah. - So we're starting with gift cards could be a way for the average person to save thousands of dollars a year, which is amazing.

Some fun stats I pulled, global gift card market, almost a trillion dollars within the US, about a quarter of that, so about $270 billion. And the other one, fun random stat, thanks to Capital One for putting together this big report of gift cards that I'll put in the show notes with the average value of a gift card is $50.

So these are just fun stats I pulled. Where I wanna kick us off is, where are all these deals coming from? 'Cause you said the average person is looking at this saying Walgreens $50 gift card to Target costs $50. What's this other side of the world where gift cards are cheaper?

- So a lot of stores, brick and mortar and online, they'll have sales, including even at Walgreens. Almost every week, Walgreens will have a few brands that are on sale. Where if you buy a $50 card or something like that, you might get $10 of Walgreens bucks, whatever their reward program is called.

And there's also straight up discounts. So like Costco, for example, frequently has Uber and Instacart for 20% off, just all the time, year round, online, in store. So if you're looking in the right places, most of the stuff that you want is available one way or another at a discount.

And if you don't have the patience to check the gift card rack, like every time you're at the store, that's kind of a pain. There are also secondhand marketplaces. So we operate on a secondhand marketplace. So raise.com is one and cardcash.com is the other big one. Even if you don't wanna like be a deal hunter, you just, you wanna buy something on Amazon today, there's also a place to just always get a discounted Amazon gift card, if that's what you want.

- So we're gonna come back to that. We're gonna talk about that reselling thing. We'll talk about the site I built, but coming back to the source of these, right? 'Cause all these gift card reselling, they all are coming somewhere. And for someone to sell to you or another platform at a discount, they have to have gotten a deal.

So we've talked about going to Costco, getting a deal, promotions at Walgreens, a few others that I found. If you have restaurants and retailers that are local in your neighborhood, in your town, they're mailing lists. There's a pizza shop that we love. And around the holidays, they were like, "Hey, we're giving $60 gift cards for $50." Now, in this case, we track all of our spending.

So I looked and I was like, "How much do we spend at this pizza shop in a year?" And it's like, "Oh, we spent a couple hundred bucks." "Great, let's buy a couple hundred bucks of gift cards. "We're saving somewhere $10 for every $60 we spend. "Why not take it?" So that was one.

One category that I haven't spent a lot of time on, but is a lot of the grocery stores can offer gift cards at either a discount or partnered with whether it's rewards or fuel points or that kind of stuff. Is that a big part of this market? - For sure, yeah.

If you can make use of those fuel points or those rewards points at the store, that's a huge way. So Kroger famously has these fuel points deals where for every gift card, you get four Kroger fuel points. It is like something I've told my sister to do 'cause she goes to Disney every year with the kids, is buy your Disney gift cards at Kroger.

My sister drives a comically large truck 'cause she lives out in the burbs. And so she actually can get those 30 gallon fill-ups that you need at Kroger to maximize those fuel points. And I'm like, "You're gonna spend all this money "at Disney anyway. "Buy your Disney gift cards at Kroger, "fill up your truck for free, "and just do that all year long "as you're getting ready for the Disney trip "or the cruise or whatever." - And some of those, I noticed like the weekly flyers or things you hear from the grocery store, sometimes it's like on the weekends, Safeway seems to always do Forex points and that kind of stuff.

So those seem to be constantly happening. Is that the case almost across the country? - Yeah, so Kroger and its affiliates, they're the largest grocery chain in the US. So I think you might have Ralph's out there on the West Coast. - Somewhere, but there's not a good Kroger chain near us.

We're a Safeway land. - Gotcha. In any event, Kroger runs a fuel points promo the majority of the time. So probably three out of four weeks per month, there's a promotion. And then Safeway, like you mentioned, there's usually specific brands that are on sale roughly every other week. And then on top of that, you can usually stack on the weekends.

There's usually a couple extra bonus points. If you can make use of those points, then they're incredibly lucrative deals 'cause you're frequently getting something like up to 25% value back in those points if you can use the points. - Yeah, yeah, I won't go down this rabbit hole 'cause I don't really understand it, but I know there is a hack out there for turning your Safeway points into Alaska miles.

So I'll leave it to you guys listening. If you're a frequent Safeway shopper and want to rack up Alaska miles, go find-- - If you live in Alaska, definitely do that. - Yeah, I think you have to live in Alaska. But if you live there, it's great. A couple other ones, card-linked offers.

How big are the kinds of offers that you get from your credit card companies where you log into the website and they say, "Oh, this month spend 200, get 20 off." Can you use those offers to buy gift cards? - Sure, well, so those card-linked offers can be really lucrative.

We frequently see them for brands where you can't otherwise get gift cards on sale. So one example might be like Tory Burch is like a luxury brand. Their gift cards are not sold at grocery stores. The only way you get them is at a Tory Burch store. But if you have a card-linked offer that's like spend 200, get 50 back, that can be really lucrative.

That's an example of a brand. We might buy it for 10% off. And so you're gonna make 10% on a 250 or $500 purchase. I mean, it could be worth the trip to the store for that. - Yeah, I have this kind of regular process of just scanning these offers to see what kind of deals there are.

I personally use the Card Pointers app, which auto adds all of them to your card. And every now and then it's like, "Oh, I just got one, I didn't even know it." You can set alerts. So anyone listening, I'll put a link in the show notes to the deal we have with Card Pointers.

What about apps that sell gift cards? I know there are a handful of things from Pepper to Flooz where you can buy discounted gift cards. - Yeah, that's another great source, especially we call that like couch spend, right? It's like you're running your business from your couch. You don't have to leave the house.

You can buy the stuff and then resell it. And I guess I should also mention, 'cause we haven't mentioned this yet, is when we say gift cards, when you go into a store, you're buying a physical gift card. But when we talk about online deals, you're not necessarily buying a physical gift card.

So in the case of these apps, what you're really just getting are numbers and pins. So if it's something that you can do just by copying and pasting numbers, then that's really appealing to people. So Pepper, as you mentioned, that's been huge. I sort of hesitate to talk too much about it just because you have to spend a lot of money in a short amount of time to get the really good deals from Pepper.

And also who knows for how long Pepper will continue to be a really great place to get gift cards. But yeah, it seems like every year or two, an app comes around where they're losing money selling gift cards because they wanna increase revenue, they wanna increase users, things like that.

And if somebody is willing to subsidize the product, you should always buy as much of that product as you can. And if it's a gift card, all the better, 'cause it's like they're selling dollars for 50 cents. Yeah, the only reason I'm gonna throw Pepper out right now is that there is a card-linked offer right now that I think is spend 75, get 35.

I don't think I have it on any of my cards 'cause I used the one they had before, which was spend 50, get 15. And there is a new user promo, which is to put in a six-digit code. Mine's 622811, if you wanna support me or find your friend.

I'll put that in the show notes, which is 20 off 200, which means you could buy $200 of gift cards on Pepper, save 20 from the new user code, save another 35 from your card-linked offer. Now you're already past 25% off. And even for new users who haven't unlocked any of their special rates that sometimes go for people who really, really use the app, today, it was like effectively seven, 8% off Amazon, Nike, Lowe's, four, 5% off Walmart and Sam's Club.

So if you stack all those things together as a new user and you have these different promos, I still think it's pretty interesting. The only caveat I will say is that you're not actually buying gift cards on the Pepper app at a discount. If you buy a $100 Amazon gift card, you're paying $100.

Now, if you have a promo and you're a card-linked offer, you're maybe you're paying less. And then they give you these coins 14 days later that you have to use to buy more gift cards. And so if you don't need more gift cards and you were to try to sell them to you, you wouldn't get full value.

And you're certainly not gonna get a discount on those. So I did a quick little scenario of, okay, well, it says you're getting 8% back, but what that really means is spend 100 and get $108 of value, which is kind of like 7.4% off, not the full 8% off.

So it's a little confusing. I think anytime someone turns their discounts into like a virtual currency, you should kind of always be a little wary, but I have gotten deals here. I'm sure you have as well. And my only concern is with these companies that are effectively losing money to grow, like you don't wanna be on the Pepper owes me thousands of dollars of coins when maybe the company stops working.

So I think if you can stack the right new customer card offers, it can be a great thing. If you're not really exposing and spending tens of thousands of dollars, it's probably fine also, but I would not wanna buy $5,000 of gift cards a day for a year straight right now.

I think it would probably be too much risk for me, but I've certainly been known when I see a good deal there to pick one up. - Yeah, if they don't care about any of this other stuff and they just wanna save like 50 bucks at Amazon, what was that six digit code again, Chris?

- Yeah, yeah, 622811 is mine. So if somebody wanted to sign up with that and if they had that card linked offer, as you said, I mean, that's like 25% off Amazon. If you do nothing else, like why not take 50 bucks off of 200 at Amazon? Very easy way that just free money.

- And then there are some other places sometimes, Flues has an app that you can download that lets you buy gift cards. I believe they're actually at a discount and I can't remember if you earn the discount up front or if it's more like Pepper. - Flues is a genuine discount.

You earn cashback, but the cashback is real. You can cash it out. - Yeah, the rewards are lower. I'm looking right now and it says Amazon is 2 1/2% off. So it might not be as lucrative, but there's no waiting for coins to deposit and all that. I'm looking in the app as we speak and the referral offer is give your friends 25% cashback.

So I'll put the link in the show notes if someone wants to try it. It's another source of gift cards. I'm certain that that 25% back for a new user has a cap and it's not something where you could just indefinitely get that deal, but keep your eye out.

And then these are the kinds of things we share in the newsletter all the time. So if anyone's not subscribed, just go allthehacks.com/email. And if there's a new app like this, we'll share it. If there's kind of a really lucrative gift card deal, we'll share it and all that.

I guess the only other one I didn't mention, and I'm curious if you have any other sources you're frequenting, but there are some websites that sell gift cards like giftcards.com that often have really high affiliate portal things. So from Rakuten or anything you kind of find, there might be big options to earn cash back shopping at online gift card retailers.

- Yeah, giftcards.com had a bunch of great deals over kind of like the Black Friday period. I think there were some portal bonuses. People were getting as high as 10% back. I mean, you could buy Visa gift cards with that even, right? So you don't even have to resell them to me.

You can probably figure out how to use a Visa gift card all on your own, but that was great deals. They'd have their own brand gift card. So you go through your portal, you buy your giftcards.com gift card at giftcards.com. Then you go back through the portal, you go back to giftcards.com, you buy something else with that, and you were earning portal cash back on both transactions.

You got the gift card at a discount. As you start describing these deals, you can descend into a lot of complication. But I would say there are opportunities that are as simple as what you were saying with Pepper and just a couple of things. And then on the more complicated end of the spectrum, giftcards.com when they're running multiple promotions on top of each other.

This episode is brought to you by Gelt. Now, when it comes to building wealth, taxes are such a big part of the strategy. And as tax time gets closer, getting prepared now is so important. And now that I'm working with Gelt, I finally feel like I have a partner I can trust to handle everything for my personal and business taxes.

You can think of Gelt as the ultimate modern CPA. Of course, they have an in-house team of expert CPAs to work with, who can help you determine the most effective tax strategies to minimize risk and grow your wealth. But they also have an amazing tech platform that gives you personalized guidance to maximize deductions, tax credits, and savings.

Beyond that, the tax library you get access to as a client has dozens of in-depth guides on things like choosing retirement plans, taxes for parents, qualified business income or QBI, and much more. So if you're ready for a more premium, proactive tax strategy to optimize and file your taxes, definitely check out Gelt.

And as a viewer, you can skip the wait list. Just head to chrishutchins.com/Gelt, G-E-L-T. Again, that's chrishutchins.com/Gelt, or find the link in the description to stop overpaying on taxes. This episode is brought to you by Notion. Now, I'm always juggling everything from goal setting for the business to outlining big projects to planning travel, and I do it all in Notion because it's so simple and beautifully designed, letting you combine notes, docs, and tasks into one seamless space.

And the new Notion AI is a single AI tool that does it all. Search across Notion and other apps, generate docs in your own style, analyze PDFs and images, and chat with you about anything. It feels like having a personal assistant built right into your workspace. That makes Notion the perfect place to organize your tasks, track your habits, write beautiful docs, and collaborate with your team.

And the more content you add to Notion, the more Notion AI can personalize its responses for you. I use Notion all the time. It's been an absolute game changer for productivity, and I'm not alone. Notion is used by over half of Fortune 500 companies. Teams that use Notion send less email, cancel more meetings, save time searching, and spend less on tools.

So try Notion for free when you go to notion.com/allthehacks. That's all lowercase letters, notion.com/allthehacks to try the powerful, easy-to-use Notion AI today. And when you use our link, you're supporting the show, notion.com/allthehacks, or find the link in the description. So I was trying to figure out why ultimately some of these deals are paid for by the apps, like the Pepper is losing money, I'm sure, or at least subsidizing these.

But some of these are paid because retailers like to offer a discount to gift card brokers, to the grocery stores, to run these promos, maybe their own business. And some of it was to grow, but on that same report I pulled on stats, I found it interesting that 61% of consumers spend more than the gift card value.

So if you're wondering why would retailers want to discount their product in the form of gift cards, well, it turns out people spend more than the gift card. And then 29% of people in this survey have had a gift card expire, and 43% have unused gift cards, and that the total unspent gift card market in the US is $23 billion.

So I guess there is breakage here. My experience here is that many gift cards don't really expire. Is that kind of a thing of the past, or how do you think about gift cards and expiration? - My understanding is that there was a federal law passed. I believe gift cards aren't allowed to have inactivity fees or expire.

I want to say for the first five years or something like that, but the practical effect of that was that most companies switched to having no expiration at all, just because it was too hard to follow. Different states have different laws, and there's federal laws on top of that.

And so rather than deal with all those individual different laws, what a lot of companies have done is they just don't expire. So it's pretty unusual to have a gift card expire, except for like a Visa gift card or a MasterCard. Those do have expiration dates, but for a closed-loop gift card, it's unusual for it to expire.

So closed-loop is what we use to refer to all third-party gift cards, by which I mean like an Amazon gift card, like a store gift card. The alternative to that, an open-loop gift card, that would be like a Visa gift card, a MasterCard gift card, those kinds of like good-as-cash type cards that you might see at the store.

- And I assume that's because once you have the Home Depot gift card, you've got to spend it at Home Depot. And I'm guessing that you probably can't use a Home Depot gift card to buy more gift cards at Home Depot, or? - Correct, yeah. If you find a store that lets you use gift cards to buy gift cards, you've kind of got a golden goose there.

- Logan's like, "Send me an email." - Yeah, send me an email. That's a very good deal if you find a place that'll let you buy a gift card with a gift card that opens up all kinds of shenanigans. And as a result, most of the places that you could do that, people did shenanigans there.

Then the store, an auditor probably asked what was going on and they shut it down. - That's kind of the supply of where all these are coming from. Where are you monitoring all these deals? 'Cause you're staying on top of this more than I am. We met in person twice, and I feel like you were like, "Oh, there's an alert, I gotta go post this thing." How are you staying on top of all this?

- In the case of Pepper, which has been super busy lately, that's as simple as opening the app and refreshing it. There are deal aggregation websites. So GCAnywhere.com, they post about gift card deals. There used to be a place called GCGalore.com that unfortunately doesn't exist anymore, but they were an excellent source.

But even places like SlickDeals or DoctorOfCredit.com, those are good sources as well. As it is my job professionally to know gift card deals, we have some tools internally that help find deals and alert me to their presence so I can post them for our users. And one of my friends has never sold a single gift card to me, but maintains an account on my website just because he likes to know about the gift card deals that we post so that he can go buy gift cards for himself, which is not really the way the site is intended to be used, but it doesn't hurt anyone.

Email's pretty cheap, so I'm not upset about it. But yeah, technically we're also a way to find gift card deals. - Yeah, and scanning your card-linked offers probably regularly, email lists from retailers that you frequent. And then are a lot of these deals online or do you sometimes have to go into the physical store to get a gift card?

- There are definitely in-store only deals. We talked about Kroger and Safeway. Those are examples where the good stuff is gonna be in store. From my perspective as a middleman who's trying to make money on reselling gift cards, my favorite deals are like hyper-regional local grocery stores. We track deals even from individual stores.

There's like five stores in Utah that we track that occasionally have great deals. So oftentimes it's these obscure local grocery chains will sometimes have killer gift card deals. And you have to go in-person, in-store to get those deals. That being said, there's plenty of online stuff as we already talked about with the apps and giftcards.com and things like that.

There's deals in both places. But if you think about economics 101 and supply and demand, if there's a deal that's only available at five stores in Utah and you live next to one of those stores, then the market, if you plan to resell those gift cards, will be much more favorable because you'll be the only supplier of them.

So yeah, we definitely encourage people to go in-store if they start to do this seriously as like a side hustle. - And before we talk about reselling, what are some of these great deals you've seen? Just give people some examples of maybe over the last couple of years, what are some recent great gift card deals outside of the Pepper app, that kind of stuff?

- Sure. I mean, right as we speak, the major grocery chain in Central Texas is called HEB. Right now they have a spend 100, get $30 deal on dozens and dozens of brands. There are these new cards called Zift that you can convert into other brands. And so we're talking about things like Airbnb, Bell, Xbox, PlayStation, things like that.

So just dozens of brands and it's spend 100, get $30 of HEB gift cards for free. I mean, that's a pretty crazy deal because if you live in Central Texas, you're gonna buy groceries one way or the other at HEB. And then certainly during Black Friday, there were like countless good deals.

My friend Rob, who was also one of our biggest sellers, he, when there's a good deal, he treats it as like a full-time job. And he was buying, I think the hot deal that he did the most of, they had Best Buy, buy 100, get 20, and they had Home Depot as well, buy 100, get 20.

Like if you're building a deck or something, you're gonna need a lot of Home Depot gift cards. To be able to get free groceries for the next couple months because you're making a big Home Depot purchase, that's a big win. - Okay. And was that one where, I remember the Best Buy one and I was like, well, I have one Best Buy account, I spend 100, I got 20 back, but I didn't get much more than that.

Was that one where if you go into Best Buy, maybe you could take advantage of it multiple times versus online, it was limited? - Yeah, so frequently Best Buy will limit you online to like two or three cards per deal per account. But often in store, if the deal's available in store, the limit is, I believe either 2000 or $2,500 per person per day.

And so my loving wife has graciously allowed me to drag her along to multiple Best Buy stores so we could each buy the limit and then drive to the next store and each buy the limit. But yeah, oftentimes the scalability really happens in stores. So if you need a lot of something, you do often end up needing to go in store.

- Does that mean you and your wife each are buying $2,000 gift cards? Is this just one transaction? And do they ever give any pushback when you try to do it? - You definitely get pushback. The limit is either 2000 or 2,500, but let's say it's 2000. The store manager often knows that.

Oftentimes the cashiers are uncomfortable running that many transactions. The other thing is, I believe the register at Best Buy specifically is limits you to three or five swipes per transaction. So it's really multiple transactions to get to that $2,000 limit. Some places they'll just refuse to sell you the gift cards.

And I never argue with anyone. I'll politely suggest that that's not what I've heard in the past, but ultimately it's usually not worth your time to get in an argument when you could just drive to another store. - That makes sense. And like Costco limits you online to, I think like once a week, but in store, there's a per transaction limit.

But if you were to go to a couple of different Costcos or come back later or have a partner there, it's a little easier. And I don't think there's any kind of hard system enforcement in the store, so. - Correct. - Yeah. So focusing on kind of the consumer buying gift cards and then we'll jump to resellers.

What are some of the mistakes people make trying to save money using gift cards and how can we help people avoid those mistakes? - I would say if you're not getting, if you're buying like a major purchase, like an appliance, you should also consider that if you put it on a credit card, your card may or may not have some kind of extended warranty protection.

And so you need to weigh the value of the discount that you're getting on the gift cards versus what you might be giving up if you value that warranty or if you value those other things. Another thing that is a trade-off is if you're buying these gift cards to make a purchase that you might return, so clothing comes to mind, then it can be very annoying if you go back and return this, they're not gonna give you cash for your return generally, they're gonna give you gift cards.

And so if you're the type of person who buys everything in three sizes and you have it shipped to your house and you try it on and then you send back the ones you don't want, then gift cards could be a bigger mess than it's worth because you're gonna end up with a bunch of gift cards in weird denominations and you may lose them over the course of however long until you shop at that store again.

So there are definitely trade-offs and you should make sure that the value that you're getting from the discount is worth those trade-offs. - So I remember one time we went to the Costco, I bought some gift cards, I was telling my wife, "We're gonna save all this money." And then I couldn't find one of them.

And I was like, my wife pointed out, she goes, "Well, you spent $600 on gift cards "and you feel like you might've saved a hundred bucks, "but a hundred of those dollars of gift cards "you seem to have lost." So my one question, obviously don't lose your gift cards, but if I were to buy a gift card and it was for a physical retailer, this was for a restaurant, do you think I could take a picture of it and show them that?

Or do I really need the physical gift card in a lot of these cases? Obviously, I know with Uber, there's just a code, you scratch it off, you can redeem it on your account, but are there any gift cards for restaurants and retail chains where, if as an insurance policy, you take a picture of it, that could cause you problems redeeming it in store?

- I think that most decent stores, you're their customer and they don't want to provide bad service and so taking your money and not giving you what you bought would be bad service. I think that taking a picture would usually work. It used to be called Raise, now it's called GCX.

Their app, it's a marketplace, but they also let you load your own gift cards into the wallet on their app. And so, me personally, even gift cards that I don't buy on there, I load into that app so that I don't forget about them and I can just go through my wallet and then if I, whatever I spend, you can mark how much you spent and you can see how much is left 'cause there's places where, we have Alamo Drafthouse Cinemas here and I don't go to the movies every week, but if there's a good deal on gift cards, I might buy a bunch and just spend them down over the year.

I don't wanna lose them and I know that I will lose the ones I buy at Costco if I don't do that. So I keep everything electronically. - Yeah. The other big one for me is just make sure you think about how much your time is worth, right? If you're gonna save $20 buying this gift card, but you have to drive 45 minutes to get it, was that a good deal?

Like, I'm not gonna tell you what your time's worth. Now, if you're walking out of Costco and you spend any money at Uber Eats, Instacart, DoorDash, and you don't just pick up one of those gift cards to save 20%, I feel like that's a little bit of a lost opportunity.

- I agree. I mean, you're leaving money on the table if you go in person to Costco, which is like a two hour ordeal. If you're gonna do that anyway, you might as well get some Uber for 20% off. - Assuming you spend on Uber or you wanna get into reselling.

So I wanna talk about reselling. How does this market work? - It's a lot like eBay. I mean, in terms of like, if you were to go to Raise, now it's a subdomain, it's gcx.raise.com. You're presented with a marketplace that looks somewhat like eBay, except that everything is organized by brand and denomination because all you can sell are gift cards.

You can't sell physical goods. Also, unlike eBay, you can't tell who you're buying the gift cards from, but an advantage is that Raise acts as a kind of a middleman or like a guarantor that the cards will be good and they offer a warranty and things like that. A lot of the gift cards are supplied professionally from people that sell gift cards to places like us.

In fact, most of the gift cards on Raise come from my company. And it's a similar story with like Card Cash is another reseller website. And again, those tend to be professionally supplied. I think a lot of people might think that the secondhand gift cards are from people who got a gift card for Christmas, for Starbucks, but they don't drink coffee, things like that.

But the vast majority of the market are people who are buying gift cards for the purpose of reselling them because they have a business reselling gift cards. - Which means that if you go to Costco and you see there was that sale where the Uber gift cards were actually $75.

So 25% off. And if you're like, well, I never take Uber, there might be an opportunity to buy that gift card and sell it and make money. That for people that don't know, that's kind of the premise of your business is you create a place for people who want to buy gift cards either as an amateur or professional to find a place to sell those gift cards.

And it's not really for the person who got a $25 Starbucks gift card and doesn't want it. Though I assume if you're buying Starbucks gift cards, they could sell you one of those as well. But how does that work for people who maybe are thinking, gosh, should I start buying gift cards when I see a deal?

- That's how I got started. I saw some discounted gift cards. I saw there might be an opportunity to flip them. I probably saw it on Slick Deals or something like that. And I got some for myself and then thought, well, this is such a good deal. I bet I could resell these and make some profit.

So there's definitely an opportunity there. And we have several members on our site who have made a full-time job out of it, more or less. There's at least one guy who flies around the country to wherever the best deal is that week and just professionally buys gift cards, driving around the stores all day long.

Obviously, that's not what most of our users are doing. That's like a handful of people. But yeah, I mean, there's every range of people who are hobbyists, who are grabbing a couple Uber when they walk out of Costco, as you described, all the way up to people who treat it as a full-time job.

- If someone were to say, I'm committed, this is gonna be my full-time job, what would you guess the annual kind of profit from that full-time job could be? - I do know some firm numbers because I asked my friend Rob, who also resells to us. He has a bunch of little side hustles.

And when there's a good deal, he goes all in on this, which there's not a good deal in your specific location every week. But when there's a good deal, he goes all in. And so for the week around Thanksgiving, he bought $67,000 of gift cards all at HEB. He made almost $5,000 in cash profit.

And then he bought it with credit cards. And so he earned points and cash back from his credit cards as well, around $2,000 or so from that. This is a professional who did it full-time during the best week of the year to do it. He made $7,000 that week.

That's pretty substantial. But I also don't want people to think that they're gonna buy two Uber gift cards at Costco every day and now they're making $7,000 a week. That's an exceptional example, but that's kind of the ceiling. - And what are the kind of general margins in this world?

If we take that Uber 25% off, how many hands does it pass from the person who buys it with the intent to resell it before it makes it to the consumer who's gonna actually use it? - Sure, so in our case, if you were to go to Costco and buy the gift card, Costco touched it, and then you touched it, and then you sell it to our site.

Now we're at three people. We would put it on like Raise probably. So that's a fourth person. And then somebody would buy it from Raise. So that's a fifth person. So if you're buying something on Raise, quite likely you're the fifth person to handle the gift card. - And should that be risky to consumers?

Should I be worried if I'm buying gift cards from someone like Raise? Or we'll talk about the site I built that we kind of, I've worked with you a little bit to get your feedback on. And should I be worried if I'm buying these gift cards that five other people might have seen the code?

And is there a lot of fraud in this industry? - The amount of fraud that we experience among our members is very low because our members tend to be somewhat professional. They're doing this as some kind of business. And we have know your customer requirements. There's a delay to get paid.

So that creates some security that if people upload completely bunk card information, they won't get paid. The user gets a refund. I think that the risk is similar to if you were to buy one in a store because there's also fraud that can take place with physical cards where people will swap out a card, they'll write down the card information, the card you activated, the register won't be the one that you're actually buying 'cause they've done a swap.

There is a risk of fraud. I don't think the risk is substantial though. And I think that if you buy from a reputable place, they'll make you whole. And so it's just not a major worry, I don't think. - Yeah, I mean, I think you said it in a more casual way, but you have a policy with the people you sell to as do a lot of these resellers, like you will guarantee those cards.

I'm looking at Uber gift cards. And if you wanted to buy 20 or 30 $50 Uber gift cards, you're probably getting somewhere between 10 and 12% off, even though at the source, someone might've gotten 25, 20% off. And so, you do a service, you take a little, raise takes a little.

Is that kind of split evenly or how does that work? Like, is there a way to get a better deal going directly to you or going directly to people? - Yeah, I mean, the more middlemen you can cut out, the better a deal you're gonna get. So the best deal that you're gonna get on an Uber gift card is to go to Costco when they have a 25% off sale.

And so if you've got a time machine, perhaps one of the least economical uses of that time machine would be to go back in time and get Uber gift cards for 25% off, right? The worst option probably would be like a marketplace like Raise. They take a pretty hefty commission.

I can tell you it's many times larger than the amount of margin that we make on something. So, if each person is making at least a couple percent, then obviously the more people you can cut out, the better. And Raise has bigger fraud concerns being more open to the public, but more private marketplaces, like the one that you're building, there's lower fraud risk, it's touching fewer hands.

And so the rates should be better there. - Yeah, I've compared it. I approached you and I said, "Why don't you sell gift cards to the public?" And you were like, "I don't wanna get into the world of opening this website and having all of these potential bad actors and everyone seeing it." And I realized that the thing I had that you didn't have and Raise in some ways probably is a private audience, an audience that isn't just on the internet where I'm not marketing to random people trying to attract customers.

So I said, "Oh, what if I bought gift cards from you? Could we resell them to our audience? Benefit from the fact that you are standing behind them with a guarantee for a period of time that is more than enough to use them. So people shouldn't be worried about that kind of fraud concern.

And what if we just didn't really make it to the public all the time? What if we opened it for windows of time and made it available?" And so I've shared it in the newsletter, but I was waiting for our conversation to put it in the podcast. So if you go to allthehacks.com/giftcards, it'll redirect to it.

I'm not gonna keep it alive all the time 'cause I don't wanna get in the business of this. And I think one of the fun things I'll share, which I kind of hinted at with you, is I'm experiencing some of why you probably aren't doing this. Like fulfilling orders, just taking a batch of codes for Amazon and getting them to people and responding to emails and questions and payment issues and all that stuff.

It's a lot of work. And we discussed the pricing here, right? If from Costco, giving some of that profit to the person who buys it, some of it to the person who aggregates it in the middle, what you're doing, and then some to the person who's selling it. And you mentioned that Raise takes even more.

And I'm looking at the cheapest gift card. It's 13% off. Like that's only 7% split amongst three parties. One of which Raise is taking a bigger chunk and I'm trying to offer something lower. So we're talking about one to two to 3% max that could kind of go to any party in the middle.

So it's a bit of a volume game. But I've found that if I can do it for short windows of time, I can kind of aggregate the work, increase the volume and make it not a complete waste of time. And so it's been fun to learn how this operates, but the idea of working with dozens and dozens of brands or hundreds of brands feels like it can get overwhelming.

And so, you know, when I've been talking to you, I'm like, let's specialize in five, 10 brands. You don't think you're gonna pack up the podcasting empire and just become a full-time gift card salesman? I do think it's interesting because when you go to Raise, like the deals are not as good as they could be.

And that was why I started this site. I said, "Hey, Logan, what would it cost me to buy gift cards from you?" And the answer you gave me was, "It will be cheaper than you could buy online, but to make it worth my time, you need to spend at least five figures with me." Because like I've learned, there's just a lot of fulfillment issues.

And I said, "God, five figures? There's not a lot of retailers that I'm spending five figures at." And so, if you wanna save up, I'm sure if someone's all ready to go and says, "Logan, I wanna spend $30,000 on gift cards. Can I make a one-time purchase from you?" Maybe they could email you, maybe you'd wanna do it.

But you're looking for people you can sell five to six, maybe even seven figures of gift cards to in the course of a year. And so if I can be that channel to directly engage with our audience, maybe a week or two every quarter, then I can fulfill the needs you have for volume to get the rates, add on enough to make it worth my time and still beat the deals at raise.

And I think everyone wins. - Yeah, for sure. - So, if you're interested, go check that site out. We'll see what's there. If you want to spend a lot of money on a retailer that's not there, shoot me an email because I'm intentionally not putting every retailer that you have.

This episode is brought to you by Viore, which is amazing because they are one of only the few brands I wear almost every single day. I've got a shirt on, I've got the core shorts on. I love Viore and I love that they bring a new perspective on performance apparel.

It's so versatile. It can be used for just about any activity, whether it's running, training, swimming, yoga, or even lounging or running errands or going out to dinner. Seriously, I wear my MetaPants out for dinner all the time. But today I want to talk about their Dreamknit collection because it's amazing.

It is super soft, lightweight, moisture wicking, but also has this amazing four-way performance stretch that makes it so comfortable. While it's almost impossible to narrow my Viore recommendations down to just one thing, I want you to check out the Ponto Performance Jogger for Men or the Performance Jogger for Women.

I know me and my wife, Amy, absolutely love them and wear them all the time. Seriously, I think Viore is an investment in your happiness. And for everyone watching, they're offering 20% off your first purchase, plus free shipping on US orders over $75 and free returns. So get yourself some of the most comfortable and versatile clothing on the planet at chrishutchins.com/viore, that's V-U-O-R-I.

Again, that's chrishutchins.com/viore to discover the versatility of Viore clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions and find the link in the description. This episode is brought to you by Element. Now, I love Element and I use it all the time because it helps anyone stay hydrated without the sugar and other dodgy ingredients in popular electrolyte and sports drinks.

And that's important because electrolyte deficiency or imbalance can cause headaches, cramps, fatigue, brain fog, and weakness. In fact, Element is a zero sugar electrolyte drink mix and sparkling electrolyte water born from the growing body of research revealing that optimal health outcomes occur at sodium levels two to three times government recommendations.

Element is formulated for anyone on a mission to restore their health through hydration and is perfectly suited for everyone from athletes to regular people like me and works if you're fasting on a keto, low carb, or paleo diet. And if you're not sure if it's for you, don't worry because Element offers a no questions asked refund policy so you can try it totally risk-free.

Get your free sample pack with any Element purchase at chrishutchins.com/lmnt. This deal is only available through that link so support the show and go to chrishutchins.com/element or click the link in the description and get hydrated. How many different brands of gift cards in a given period of time do you have in your inventory?

- We think about things in terms of like SKUs, which would be like a brand plus a denomination. And we have over 200 SKUs in stock typically. Our inventory is like, I guess, eight figures. It's a huge inventory, amount of inventory to manage, which is also why it's very hard if somebody is like, I want to buy a $100 Starbucks gift card.

I don't wanna be rude, but it's also like, yeah, I'm gonna make like $2 on that and it's gonna take like 20 minutes to do the accounting. So like it's just the economics don't make sense for that. - I mean, I found the same thing, which is why I kind of told everyone that the minimum order was $1,000 worth of gift card value to make it worth my time, which still depends because I'm not holding inventory.

My risk is on the positive, my benefit is I'm not holding inventory. You've learned how to manage that. I'm not ready for that. The downside is this market changes a lot. And so I imagine that the week that Uber is 25% off at Costco I could probably get better deal on Uber gift cards than the week that Costco takes it off and it hasn't been there.

And so when I'm doing this, I'm taking on some risk. And there was one right now that I'm looking at where I sold some gift cards in a brand and those gift cards are now not available for the price that they were. And so I might lose a little bit, but that's okay.

I made the commitment that I would do that sale and that's okay, that's my risk. But for you, how often are these prices changing and how much fluctuation from Black Friday when there's all these deals throughout the year is the range of a Amazon gift card? How much swing is there?

- That's a good example of a fairly like long-term volatile brand in that it was unheard of to see Amazon on raise for even 1% off. And we're talking like really almost no discount. But then the pepper effect of them entering the marketplace, selling tons of Amazon gift cards at a huge discount is that at the time of recording, if you went to raise, it would be like 8.5% off for Amazon.

That's a crazy discount for a place that just sells everything. Like my personal Amazon account is like loaded to the gills with gift cards. It's never been that cheap before. For other brands that are lower volume, you can see a lot more volatility even in the short term. So Chipotle, for example, is one where like it can fluctuate between, in terms of the deals that you could buy at a store, it'll fluctuate between like 10 and 20% off.

So markets can move fairly quickly. I'm a huge economics nerd. Most markets in the world that you can access in the US are like mature and well-developed. So like the stock market, the commodities and futures exchange, things like that. People much smarter than me with much faster computers than me, those problems are all solved.

This is like a market where it is like the wild west and like, you know, things happen, things move quickly and it's a really undeveloped market. And so it's very exciting and very fun for me, like on the economic side of things, 'cause we've been in business for over five years now.

So we have all this data about how prices move, how price affects daily sales, things like that. So we're able to make educated guesses as to where the market's gonna go based on what effect the sale is gonna have. And so the part of this job that's really exciting to me is less like delivering gift cards to someone and more of that market stuff and like trying to guess the volatility, trying to not get in trouble when you bought a bunch of Southwest gift cards and now they're 5% cheaper.

So yeah, I mean, things can definitely move, you know, things can move 5% overnight, no problem. And so it's important that you size your bets appropriately to account for that kind of volatility. - Yeah, the data you have is something that, you know, I wish I had, because every now and then I'll see a wild deal and I'm like, how much of this should I buy?

And when it's just for me, you know, my wife and I, when Costco had Southwest gift cards and they, you know, increased the bonus and it was like 50, I can't remember what, maybe it got up to 16%. I was like, well, how much are we gonna spend in Southwest?

They don't expire. Like how much do we spend flying Southwest over the next three or four years? And I guess one alternative thing to keep in mind is while gift cards probably do fluctuate in value, they're definitely not earning interest. So if you're gonna buy 25 years of your Southwest Airlines budget, you know, there's some window at which you probably would have been better off putting that money to work, whether it's a savings account or some type of investment and not investing in gift cards, even if, you know, those prices do fluctuate.

But like you, I realized at some point, I was like, oh, wow, sometimes these are a lot cheaper. And there are definitely a few gift cards that I bought and then realized, oh, I could have gotten an even better deal and I kind of lost a little. Now these weren't major bets, but with that data, it would be interesting to say, gosh, if Amazon's at an all-time high discount, should I just buy a ton of Amazon and hold onto it?

And I think that's a little bit of what you're doing right now because it's never been this good. - Yeah, it was the day after Christmas, maybe. Pepper, I wanna say had it for 20% back in coins. And I'm not proud of it 'cause I was like hanging out with my family and my nieces and nephews and stuff, but I was like, I mean, I gotta buy some of this.

'Cause like, that's a crazy deal. Like when's Amazon gonna be 20% back? But fortunately, it only takes a couple minutes to buy something on Pepper, but. - Yeah, and that deal did not last. I haven't seen it at that price. And just for people who are looking at their Pepper app seeing, you know, 5% or 8% or nothing, it seems that, you know, some of the people who are doing a lot of spending on that app are seeing different deals than other people.

And a lot of those have come down. And by the time this gets published, who knows if any of those deals are around and the fate of Pepper is very unclear. But it sounds like things are kind of pretty volatile. Between now, let's say this comes out at end of January, early February, are there periods of time over the next two or three months that, you know, are for whatever reason often filled with great deals?

- Not really. So we're kind of in a slow part of the year. Everyone kind of has a hangover after Christmas in terms of retail. People spend a ton of money buying Christmas presents and then, you know, maybe they get gift cards for Christmas and then they buy stuff right after Christmas.

And then everything is really slow until more or less Mother's Day. Things have been busier than usual this year for January. But one reason I just got back from vacation yesterday, I always book a vacation in January because I'm working nonstop October through Christmas. So usually I finally get to take a break, but things have actually been surprisingly busy.

We're kind of in uncharted waters in terms of how busy it is now. So I hesitate to speculate what February would look like. - And one thing I didn't ask, are there some retailers that are just never on sale? You can never get a deal? And maybe never say never 'cause you thought that way about Amazon.

But, you know, I tend to think that almost everywhere you can buy an Apple laptop seems to never go 20% off. It was kind of my mental radar, but things like Target and Best Buy and Home Depot, I never really see crazy deals for those gift cards. - In terms of a place that is never on sale, the one that comes to mind is Costco.

Costco cards are treated same as cash. In fact, if you don't have a membership and you use a Costco card, I believe they cash the card out at the register. So obviously it would be a real coot if you could buy Costco gift cards at a discount. You also, as an exception to what we discussed earlier, you can use Costco cash gift cards to buy other gift cards.

But because they're effectively the same as cash, I think that's why I've never seen them on sale anywhere other than Costco. I've never seen them on sale at a discount. They're kind of unique in that way. I mean, even Amazon, even before Pepper started going crazy with Amazon, we could still get it from Kroger from the fuel point steals.

So basically if a place sells their gift cards in a store that other than their own, there's usually an angle to get those gift cards at a discount. And that may even be in the form of card linked offers. So I mentioned Tory Burch. You're never gonna see a Tory Burch gift card on sale, even at full price at your grocery store.

But with a card linked offer, you can make it work. And then also if you see a card linked offer at a place like a Lowe's Home Improvement, they sell third-party gift cards. And so anything that's on their rack, if you've got an offer that's like spend 200, say 50, you could buy Apple gift cards at Lowe's.

And that would be an angle to do that as well. - Okay, I just asked 'cause I never seemed to see Apple gift cards at a major discount. It seems like that's one of the retailers that always is selling at or close to face value. - Yeah, Apple and Best Buy, on like the wholesale side of things, they tend to not dip below like 90%.

And so the discount that you would see as a customer, if you're buying it with a credit card, is gonna be pretty close to full price. - So I'm curious, how do a lot of these brands feel about this? Are there brands that get mad if their gift cards are listed on Raise?

And are they upset if people are selling their cards at a discount? Obviously, Amazon's not intending for Amazon gift cards to be available. I don't wanna promise anything, but as of now, the gift card site I set up, we're able to sell Amazon at 10% off. And there's probably a reason that that's been 80% of all the order volume for the gift card site I set up has been through Amazon getting 10% off.

Is Amazon unhappy about that? Like, should I worry that they're gonna be like angry at me for doing this? - I think that the general retailer approach ranges from indifference to outright hostility. The places that are really hostile, you'll see their gift cards can't be purchased on Raise. So Fanatix comes to mind.

We never buy Fanatix because nobody wants to buy Fanatix because you can't resell Fanatix. Amazon is not thrilled if people are using the gift cards to like drop ship. They're not thrilled about that. And so they view that as an angle for that to occur, but they're not so mad about it that they banned them from Raise.

And so a good rule of thumb is if you go to raise.com and it's a brand you've heard of before and the page doesn't exist or there's no gift cards for sale, that likely means that they sent an angry letter to Raise. - So before you buy a gift card thinking you're gonna profit off its resale, just check if Raise is selling it.

And if not, it might be a lot harder than you think to flip that gift card. - For sure, yeah. And if you're planning to do this as a business, definitely don't buy a gift card until you know that you've got a buyer lined up for it. Unless it's at a place where you're comfortable consuming whatever it is that they sell.

But yeah, if you buy a bunch of Fanatix and you're not a sports fan, like you're gonna have a tough time 'cause nobody's gonna want that. - Yeah. And as an amateur person thinking of this as a side hustle, obviously they can come to you to sell gift cards.

I know you can sell gift cards on Raise, but is that kind of a losing proposition for the seller if they're doing it at small volume? - Yeah, I think the commission that Raise charges, obviously the more that you sell, the higher volume, the better the rates get. And so we have better rates than you would get coming in off the street for sure.

I think that you would have a hard time just with the rack rate, making money selling a couple of gift cards a month. If what you have is that Starbucks gift card that you didn't want, well, getting something is better than nothing. And so if Raise's commission is like 12 and a half percent or something like that, if you're coming in off the street, then maybe that's better than having a gift card that you're not gonna use, but you're gonna have a hard time making a profit reselling stuff on Raise.

Another challenge is you're gonna be competing against people like me who are professionally doing this, who have the data and the software needed to genuinely compete on the market. It would be a little naive to go in with just a few gift cards and think that you're gonna come out ahead, right?

- You are the place that I've sold the most gift cards, the place I've bought the most gift cards from. If someone's looking to get into this, obviously Raise might not be the best as you're just getting started outside of you guys. If you guys aren't buying a card that someone's looking to buy, are there any other places that you'd throw out there for them to look at?

- Well, if we don't buy the card, the odds are quite good that no one wants the card. We'll flip anything that we can find. We're even hoping to flip some things that aren't gift cards in the near future. Like if we can make a market, we'll make a market for it.

And so it's unusual for there to be a brand that we won't buy, but that other people will buy. That said, we do have competitors. You could list directly on Raise. There are other middlemen like us. So Card Center is one. Now, bear in mind that I do this professionally.

So like I haven't sold to Card Center, so I'm not super familiar with how their website works. You're probably more of an expert than I am in terms of like what the experience is like. Gift Card Wiki is another competitor, as is The Card Bay. I've used Gift Card Wiki.

That's actually like kind of what got me into this hobby a decade ago. And we built our site because we wanted to solve a lot of the pain points, a lot of the things that we didn't like selling to other people. And I genuinely like our product. I think that we have an excellent product.

I'm proud of our product. And we care a lot about constantly improving the experience. So if someone else comes out with a feature that we didn't think of, we will shamelessly copy that feature because we wanna be the best place to sell gift cards. - Since you guys are doing seven, eight figures of gift card transactions, I'm curious, what do you think really separates the top sellers from the average person looking for deals and trying to start up a side hustle in gift card reselling?

- In most industries, and ours is no exception, a small percentage of people provide us the vast majority of our inventory, right? So like kind of like an 80/20 thing, right? Where it's like fifth of our users provide four fifths of the cards. So the thing that separates those people is those people tend to work full time on it when there's a good deal.

There's the make hay while the sun shines, like when there's a good deal. Those tend to be people who can, they either have flexible work or like they don't work full time. They can work full time when there's a great gift card deal. So I mentioned how Rob was able to do so much in one week.

That's because Rob is a professional poker player and his job is playing poker at night here in Texas where it's legal to do so. And when there's a good gift card deal that will pay him more per hour than that work, then he's able, he's flexible. No, he doesn't have to clock in at the poker room, right?

He can just not play poker for a week, that's no problem. So the people that are really delivering tons of cards tend to be people that have more flexible work like that. I mean, we have plenty of people who are top quartile who have full-time jobs on top of it.

Those people are just willing to do a lot of work, I guess. - So obviously not everyone's gonna get to Rob's level right away. So for someone who's just getting started and thinking this is interesting, what do you think the best way to get started is? Is it to sign up and sell their first gift card to you?

- Sure, we talked about Costco earlier. If I had to pick one place to start that is easy and safe and you should make a profit outright from the get-go, it would be Costco and even Costco.com. I believe that we're paying, I think you can make a profit on both Instacart and Uber gift cards, selling them to us right now.

If you buy them from Costco.com, you're not even leaving your house, you're just getting an email, you're copying a number, pasting it onto our site. So yeah, if you're looking to get started, I would start there. And if something goes wrong, Costco famously has terrific customer support. That or whether you're gonna keep it or sell it, I mean, what you mentioned with Pepper is another great place to start.

- I do think that Pepper would probably be a good place to start to get a deal for yourself, but, and maybe a good place to start using a card-linked offer and a new user promo. I'll throw caution to anyone who's never signed up to get the rates that are gonna make a profitable reselling business.

You're not gonna see those out the gate. And so if you look in there and say, "Gosh, I could buy this on Pepper. How much can I sell it to Aligned Incentives for?" You're probably not gonna make money there. But for some of these grocery store deals, these card-linked offer deals, the deals you talked about at Costco, like those might make a profit from a get-go.

And that's just the profit of the business. We didn't talk at all about the fact that you get your 2% for executive rewards, if you have executive rewards at Costco. And depending on your payment method, if you're paying with a credit card, you might get rewards there. And so you can decide based on all the different factors, what kind of margin you need from reselling.

But I've been very surprised that this can be a profitable business, buying and selling gift cards, buying them when there's deals. I haven't been a rob yet. I haven't flown around. I haven't hit the in-store stuff hard, but you guys do a lot of alerts on the site in the Telegram channel and that kind of stuff.

And I think if people stay on top of those, when there's a deal, it's pretty clear there's a deal and you can jump on it and make money. - Yeah, and we take all types. I mean, there's tons of people who've never, never gotten a check from us for more than $1,000.

And that's fine too. And they're just like doing little bits every week, whenever they have time. You don't have to be at Rob's level to get something out of this. And even if you're like my friend, who's never sold me any gift cards, and he just uses the gift cards himself, that's great too.

The main takeaway here is that, gift cards are not just for gifting. Like they are a way to save money on stuff. And whether that is saving money for yourself or even reselling them and making a profit, they're more than just a type of payment rail. - To go back to where we started, if I were listening to this and I haven't gone through the process of looking at where I spend money and looking at how much impact it would have to save 10 to 20% on it like you, that'd be a fun place to start.

Go look at where you spent your money last year. And for every one of those, look it up on Raise, look and get a sense of what the scope is. Now, do I think if you come to the site I built, you can beat what Raise is offering? Yeah, I think that.

Do I think if you put in the work to go find those gift cards yourself during deal times, you can even beat rates on my site, rates on Raise? Yeah, so I think there's a lot of opportunity to save money if you know where you spend money and you could turn this into a business as well.

I'll put links to Aligned Incentives in the show notes and we'll put links to everything we talked about. Logan, thanks for doing business with me. I've enjoyed working together. - I've enjoyed working together. - Thanks for having me on, man.