I want to play the theme music for this episode. Okay, hold on one second. Here we go. It's coming. And you don't know right from wrong, give a little whistle. Give a little whistle. If you let the Indian government plant spies in your office, give a little whistle. If you have too many bots, you can come up with your own metric.

M-D-A-U's. M-D-A-U's. When you want to incent your staff to not look at the bots, give them bonuses based on DAOs. Based on DAOs. Always let your bonus be your guide. When you're on the board and you see metrics that you don't like, turn a blind eye. Turn a blind eye.

Sorry, sorry. I just got subpoenaed. Everybody's getting subpoenaed again. This is J. Cal at his best. We got to stop. We're getting ourselves into too much trouble. Let your winners ride. Rain Man, David Sass. And it's said. We open sourced it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it.

Love you, besties. Queen of Kinwa. I'm going all in. This is going to be the story of 2022. For sure. Right before, I guess, the big case between Elon and Twitter is about to happen, I guess, in October at some point. A Twitter whistleblower has come forward and dropped a nuke into the middle of what was basically the story of the year in business, I think.

The former head of security hired by Jack himself, an incredibly well-respected Peter Mudge, Zatco. He's referred to as Mudge. One of the most respected people in the security industry. Again, recruited by Jack in 2020 after a team of hackers, you may remember, took over all these verified accounts. Obama, Biden, and Elon's account as well.

And he was head of security until January of this year, eight months ago. And he claims, through explosive documents, a huge document dump, that Twitter execs ignored, these Twitter executives ignored multiple security vulnerabilities. Now, why is this important? Well, obviously, if Obama, Biden, and other heads of state have their Twitter handles, they could say something that could cause an international incident.

And that's actually happened with hacks before. He also says they were not following even the most basic security protocols like safeguarding staff access to core software. Of course, all of this comes after there were Saudi infiltrator spies, essentially, inside of Twitter. I mean, the list of things here that he has mentioned.

That he is alleging is truly colossal. He dumped these documents to the Department of Justice, the SEC, Congress, and the Washington Post. He alleges that the vulnerabilities make Twitter extremely vulnerable to foreign spies hacking and disinformation campaigns. And perhaps most importantly, to the acquisition, the complaint also adds that Twitter's policy towards fake accounts incentivize, quote, deliberate ignorance by undercounting spam accounts and giving bonuses to execs for increasing use of fake accounts.

He also says that the So, you'll recall on a previous show, we talked about this idea that if you're not using bots, you're not going to be able to find bots. And I said, well, I'm not going to be able to find bots. And I said, well, I'm not going to be able to find bots.

If Twitter sues Elon to go after the kill fee or to go after damages, the question will very rapidly become about whether Twitter has a bot problem. And we'll discover or reveal documents that show that Twitter executives knew or should have known there was a problem. And so I said, you know, the question will very rapidly become, what did Twitter executives know and when did they know it?

Now, I couldn't have predicted that this whistleblower would come forward. But what he's basically saying is not. Not only is there a bot problem, there is a cover-up of the bot problem. He's accusing the company of positively Nixonian tactics here. So, just to build on what you said, J.

Cal, he said that Twitter executives don't have the resources to fully understand the true number of bots on the platform. And their executives are disincentivized to count them properly because doing so would negatively affect their bonuses. So, I didn't know that their bonuses were in any way tied to this bot issue.

So, he's basically. So, I didn't know that their bonuses were in any way tied to this bot issue. So, he's basically. So, I didn't know that their bonuses were in any way tied to this bot issue. So, I didn't know that their bonuses were in any way tied to this bot issue.

So, I didn't know that their bonuses were in any way tied to this bot issue. So, I didn't know that their bonuses were in any way tied to this bot issue. So, I didn't know that their bonuses were in any way tied to this bot issue. So, I didn't know that their bonuses were in any way tied to this bot issue.

So, I didn't know that their bonuses were in any way tied to this bot issue. So, I didn't know that their bonuses were in any way tied to this bot issue. board has given incentives to the management team, he's a top five top seven member of the management team.

So what's going on here with this? Dysfunction, where he's hired to tell the truth, to fix the problems, the board is turning a blind eye to it. And maybe the management team is not giving the board the data they need to make better decisions. Who? How do you game theory this?

Yeah, I'm not sure that it's you can come to all those conclusions. Yeah, I'm not coming to the conclusion. I'm just my mind is wandering of how this I read the function comes up. I read parts of, of his whistleblower. I can't claim to have read it all. It actually isn't super supportive of Elon's case.

The most problematic thing that he points out is the following. And this is a quote from his complaint. He said Twitter, quote, already doing a decent job excluding spam bots and other worthless accounts from its calculation of M data. At best, he's alleging that Twitter omitted details, not that it lied directly.

So if you kind of take that, I think what he's really pointing his sights on are, as you said, disclosures that have nothing to do with the spam issue, but have a lot to do with security. And that is something that typically in a in a public company board filters up through the audit committee typically, that gets a readout, right?

once a quarter from the rep from the right people who talk about, here's our cybersecurity threats and vulnerabilities. And then there is a readout from that committee chair to the board. And then those are noted in your quarterly in your quarterly reports that the secretary writes down. So I think part of why this guy may not have had the audience is, it was also written that he was a pretty terrible manager.

And there were hundreds of people in his organization who were just kind of running here and there. And so you know, you guys have all been in the situation where we hire somebody who is an exceptional performer. And then we miscast that person by putting them in a point of leadership, and being a team manager versus, you know, a single kind of like, product or engineering expert.

And it seems that there was a part of that at play as well, which decayed the ability for management to actually have enough faith and trust in this guy to put them in front of the board. So and that's all that's just come up in the last few days.

So I don't know, my, my reading of the whistleblower claim is really that this is the kind of thing that companies like Facebook and Google and others have had issues with the FTC in the past. They typically settle those claims, they pay a fine snap. But those things take three to five years to play out.

So I suspect, that this body of content, more leads to that outcome, then is a smoking gun that really helps Elon. In fact, this, the fact that he's actually affirmatively stating that their calculation of MDOW is actually pretty decent, actually hurts the claim that Elon is making. I don't know if I agree with that, actually.

Okay, go ahead. So I agree with with Chamath that the claims he's making are far broader than the bot issue, and far broader than the issues that Elon's raised. So I agree with you about that, Chamath. However, I don't agree that what he's saying isn't specifically helpful to Elon's case.

So what he said is, so this is from a CNN Business article, he said, Zatko's disclosure argues that by reporting bots only as a percentage of MDOW, rather than as a percentage of total number of accounts on the platform, Twitter obscures the true scale of fake and spam accounts on the service, a move Zatko alleges is deliberately misleading.

And then CNN continues- So wait, what you're saying here, Sachs, just to do the math, the denominator matters here. If the denominator was all accounts, the percentage of bots would be much higher. If the denominator is monthly MDOWs, whatever they created, it would be a much lower denominator, and the percentage would change.

I think is what- I'm just reporting what CNN is reporting in terms of what Zatko's alleging. I just want to get it out on the table. CNN broke the story along with what other news- Washington Post. Washington Post. Yeah. Basically, what happened is this guy got fired in January and started working with these whistleblower lawyers.

They put together a big report, and then that report got leaked to the Washington Post and CNN, as well as people on Capitol Hill. So that's kind of what happened here. So CNN goes on to say, Zatko says he began asking about the prevalence of bot accounts on Twitter in early 2021, and was told by Twitter's head of site, Integrity, that the company didn't know how many total bots are on its platform.

He alleges that he came away from conversations with the Integrity team, with the understanding that the company had, quote, "no appetite to properly measure the prevalence of bots," end quote, in part because if the true number became public, it could harm the company's value and image. So this is, again, the up and Sinclair problem that they're- I mean, at a minimum, David, you have to agree, this guy is basically speaking on both sides of his mouth.

I mean, these are both direct quotes from his complaint. So his complaint, at best, is very confusing and a little schizophrenic. Well, it's also just coming out. So there'll be more data that's coming out that comes from- Yeah, by the way, I'm not saying that I believe him or disbelieve him, but I'm saying if you look at the quotes, the quotes aren't the smoking gun one would want if one was trying to- Look, I think we have to remember, the lawsuit has really nothing to do with this problem.

The lawsuit really boils down to one very specific clause, which is the pinnacle question at hand, which is there is a specific performance clause that Elon signed up to. Right? Which his lawyers could have struck out and either chose not to or couldn't get the deal done without. And that specific performance clause says that Twitter can force him to close at 5420 a share.

And I think the issue at hand at the Delaware Business Court is going to be that, because Twitter's going to point to all of these gotchas and disclaimers that they have around this bot issue as, you know, their cover story. And I think that really, you know, this kind of again builds more and more momentum in my mind that the most likely outcome here is a settlement where you have to pay the economic difference between where the stock is now and 5420, which is more than a billion dollars, or you close at some number below $54 and 20 cents a share.

And I think that that is, like, you know, if you had to be a betting person, that's probably and if you look at the, the way the stock is traded, and if you also look at the way the options market trades, that's what people are assuming that there's a seven to $10 billion swing.

And if you impute that into the stock price, you kind of get into the $51 a share kind of an acquisition price. Again, I'm not saying that that is right or should be right. That's just sort of what the market says. Friedberg, what's your take on this? Do you find this person credible, highly credible?

And how damaging? Do you think that is? Do you think this is to Twitter, independent of the deal to sell the company? I think there's two tests. One is the materiality of what they've reported. So and really, that comes down to just the the end out reported numbers. So if there really is some misstatement, knowing misstatement based on what he's saying.

That's an issue. The other one is the duty of care responsibility of the board meaning did the information that he's providing actually find its way to the board. If it was blocked by management, you know, it's a judgment call on, you know, whether or not management was trying to deceive or whether they were trying to investigate and identify more.

If the information was brought to the board, and the board did not act, then there's an issue with the board's meeting their duty of care responsibility as fiduciaries of the company. And that's really what he did pitch the board at some point or explain this, but not in writing.

Yeah, if what he's claiming, Yeah, if what he's claiming, did not make its way to the board, then it's hard to say that the board was in breach of their duty of care. If the CEO and if the if the CEO blocked it, then there's a question on what then the CEO can be fired, right, then there's a good case for the CEO to be fired.

I see. So I see, you know, probably one of three scenarios here. One is, you know, nothing happens to is that the board is actually violating their which I doubt knowing this board. I mean, knowing who's on this board. It's probably more than likely. Yeah, I mean, I think it's probably more than likely that the CEO or some executives that block this information from getting to the board, the board then has to act now that they have the information.

And they say, Hey, you block this information from getting to us, we need to act. And maybe they removed the the leadership that was responsible for that. Sachs in terms of board governments, how much of this has to do with the fact that nobody really owned on the board any significant equity in Twitter?

Is that true? Yeah, I mean, I think I mean, on the board was the highest, right? He owned two or 3% much did Silver Lake own Jack owned two or 3% of the board. How much did Silver Lake own? Jack owned two or 3% of the board. How much did Silver Lake own?

Jack owned two or 3% of the board. How much did Silver Lake own? Jack owned two or 3% of the board. How much did Silver Lake own? Jack owned Silver Lake, Egon's on the board. I mean, they're they're they're owners on the board, right? The majority of the board, yeah, were low.

To be clear, Zacco doesn't seem to be pointing his finger at the board. In fact, quite the contrary, he's saying he wasn't allowed to present to the board in the amount of detail that he wanted in written form like he wanted. So in a way, he seems to be exonerating the board.

He is pointing the finger at Twitter executives. And the timeline here is instructive. Basically, what happened is he was hired by Jack Dorsey back when Jack was CEO. This is in, I think, November of 2020. And at that time, Jack had Zacco report directly to him. He actually took responsibility away from these issues away from Parag, who was running engineering, gave it to Zacco.

Zacco reported directly to him. Now, fast forward about a year later, and Jack steps down, Parag becomes CEO. And then two months later, Parag fires Zacco. And it's in that time period, that couple of months, where Zacco alleges that he's prevented from providing a written report to the board, that Twitter executives instruct him to cherry pick, that they basically try to amend this third-party consulting firm's report in order to make the situation look better in order to hide the extent of the company's problems.

So I think this is, I think the allegations, as far as they go, are mainly a problem for Twitter management. And look, I don't know the truth of these things. They're just allegations. I think this guy is a respected sort of white hat hacker in the cyber community. At the same time, I don't know, maybe he is a bad manager, or maybe there are other reasons for removing him.

Could be both. Could be a bad manager. And could be telling the truth, right? Yeah. And you can't ignore the fact that under whistleblower laws, if Twitter gets fined as a result of these allegations, he could get 30%. So listen, we don't know the truth of it. However, I do think that this whole thing is a windfall for Elon's case because it does seem to provide substantiation for Elon's assertion that there's a bot problem at Twitter.

And a cover up about it. And a cover up about it. Exactly. Yes. And a cover up that would basically potentially invalidate the company's SEC disclosures on the subject. Yeah, it's explosive. Now, there's a question of law and a question of fact with regard to Elon's case. So in other words, at the end of the day, what they're going to be stating in Delaware is a contract dispute.

Is Elon contractually required to close? And Elon's assertion is I'm not because this bot issue. So there's a question of law where if everything Elon says about the bots is true, is he required to close? And I don't know what the legal ramifications that are. But I think with respect to the question of fact, which is, is Elon right about the bot issue?

There's no question that this is a bombshell that can only help his case. By the way, to your point, the the the stock was kind of pricing in a 70% likelihood of this thing closing, if you looked at just how all this stuff was trading, and it went down to 60%.

Once that whistleblower report came out, and people had a chance to digest it. So to your point, it definitely moved the goalposts a little bit towards towards in Elon's favor. There is a you know, an important thing to point out here, which sex just touched on, there was a whistleblower program that was created in 2012.

And by the SEC, as part of Dodd Frank, I believe, or in part of the evolution of Dodd Frank, and they've given out now over $1 billion in whistleblower awards, these awards come out of the SEC fine. So you often wonder like, hey, they give this huge SEC fine, who got it?

Well, it turns out whistleblowers now are massively incentive, because if you're a whistleblower, it's a career ending, potentially, Jason, you're not you're not seeing the other part, which is when you go to these organizations to now help develop a whistleblower lawsuit, what has actually happened is you're not whistleblowing, moral or ethical breaches, you're whistleblowing things that can come back to an issue that the SEC and the FTC can make an issue up because that's where the financial fines come.

And that's where their remuneration and motivation. So for example, like you could have a company that's illegally, I don't know, killing dogs, how horrible. But, you know, the whistleblower claim will be about, you know, their disclosures in a 10k of how many dogs they killed to the SEC, right?

In this case, you know, how many, what did they do? They tell the Yeah. And that's why he gave this to the SEC, DOJ. The other interesting wrinkle here. And by the way, there's been to the whistleblower program, I did a bunch of reading on it this week. They also don't disclose who the whistleblowers are.

So this isn't a case where you have to come out like Francis did, or much did you, a lot of these awards are being given quietly. So there's been two rewards over $100 million. And they don't say what the award was based on, you know, who did who, who the whistleblower is, or who the company is, they've been doing this in a very stealthy way.

And it seems to be highly effective. The big difference, I think with Francis, compared to this one is Francis just a PM, you know, who was not a top five or 10 employee, not even close to that. This is a top five, top seven employee who had access to the board and was giving reports to the board, at least orally.

The final point on this, I would like to get everybody's commentary on if it is true, that they essentially were forced Twitter was forced by the government to put a government agent on the payroll. I think agent means spy, how explosive is that? And then how many countries that to me is the most important thing that is not getting nearly enough coverage.

It's like you had a government come to a company that's based in America. And it's not it's not the United States government that did it. And basically said, we need you to place an agent of our intelligence services inside of your company. And it seems like they were like, Okay, where do you want them to sit?

Now, sacks, if that's true, would I wonder if they would be required to tell the CIA and our government that their arms being twisted? Like, this seems unprecedented to me. And if they didn't, well, I think this is all alleged. So but if true sacks, what I think the bigger but no, Jason, you should also ask the next one, which is if they did it to Twitter, which is kind of small.

What about the big honeypots of users, Google, Apple, Google, Facebook, TikTok, snap. And what about Trump countries outside of just India? What about the United States? No, I mean, what about the United States? Well, yeah, we have access to the stuff, you know, through the courts, it's supposed to be a process, there's supposed to be the process is you go to court and you get a warrant, not that it's a high bar, but a prosecutor has to go show probable cause and get a search warrant, present it to the company, and then they turn over the data.

This you're right, it's explosive in the sense that what they're saying is that these government agents, this is what Zacco says, according to Time magazine, the purported agents had direct, unsupervised access to internal information. So it means DMS, when the accounts are created, who owns which account the IP addresses, that's what I'm guessing.

They had access to which is you do not want to trust I'm guessing, I'm guessing what don't put anything in your DMS, folks. I'm guessing what it doesn't mean is the Twitter menu in the cafeteria. Yeah, no. Not that I mean, not that anybody's been to that cafeteria for years.

Anyway, I mean, there's literally $47. They had direct unsupervised access to the salad bar. I think I think I think you have to make an assumption that if if governments are doing this to one company, they're doing it to all companies. Yeah, but you would think, right? That Google would put up a fight or Apple would put up a fight.

But who knows? You think they put up a fight when they went into China? The opposite. You think they do the opposite? Well, actually, what they did was there's actually even sneaker way to do it. What Apple did when they went there is they said, we're not providing cloud services in China.

But all the cloud services are provided by this third party company. So then they could have plausible that that's not what this is about. This is about being an example of how this is. I understand. But I'm asking you a question. Do you think that foreign governments have put pressure on the largest American tech companies to place agents?

And do you think they exist in there? They've definitely put. So they've put agents in there. They've definitely put agents in there. So the first part, they've definitely put pressure. We see that obviously, then the question is, would our would the would Apple or Google do this and not inform the government or not put up a fight?

I don't know. Well, I think it's fair to say that the the Senate Intelligence Committee is going to haul Twitter and have like a closed door meeting. And then the question is, you know, will they haul everybody else in and is just is I think what what is what is an important question is, is this a dirty girl kind of business tactic at the highest levels of every company?

And we just don't know it and are typically not read into it. And we would never know in the absence of this whistleblower thing. And my question is, do does our government know that our companies are acquiescing to these governments? Well, that's been a problem for a long time, actually.

So there was an op ed by Microsoft executive talking about this a number of months back where the argument was, well, the government has to go get a search warrant to get your data from these companies. But these companies don't put up a fight like they don't. They don't challenge the warrant at all.

And why because they don't have an interest, they have an interest in in being called. Cooperative, right? The article is basically saying that if you're the subject of a search warrant, meaning they're going to Google to get information about Jason, the government should have a duty to inform Jason so that your lawyers can go challenge it.

And that was the legal change that needed to be made. We had this conversation, I think last year. That is a change that should be made because in the old days when the government would present you with a search warrant, they'd have to go to you because all of your documents were in your possession, they would be at your house.

So they would come knocking on your door, give you the search warrant, you could give it to your lawyer, they could challenge it. That doesn't happen anymore. Now the government just goes and gives a search warrant to a big tech company, because your data is in the cloud. But their argument is you don't own that data, the big tech company does.

The big tech company has no incentive to fight the government. And they just get access to all of your data. And you don't even know. Well, it's not an investigator. It's not an argument. You agree to that when you sign their terms of service. Yeah, the current situation is bad enough that essentially, you have very little rights over your data.

But what's happening here, the allegation is even worse, which is that government operatives are working with the company in a way that provides them access. And they have a search warrant. Yeah, they can just buy on their ex girlfriend, their you know, brother in law, whoever they can just spy on a celebrity do whatever they want.

I'd always, I'd always assumed that this was happening covertly, meaning like, look, if you're a tech company, and you know, you have a very bright, I don't know, PhD on a visa, and you hire that person to work in computer vision, I'm just making this up. How do you really know that that person is not an agent of another foreign country?

And obviously, the overwhelming majority are not. But once you have hundreds or 1000s of people, you know that that you brought into your company, all it takes is one person, you know, for example, we just saw I think in Apple, there were two people that were just recently arrested for stealing all of Apple's autonomous auto data and documents and design schematics and all of that stuff.

And one of the guys was arrested right before he was trying to fly back to China. And so somehow they figured it out, they were able to get him he was not a US citizen. But then another guy that did it was a US citizen, but both were of Chinese origin, it just goes to show you that the covert nature of industrial espionage is probably at an all time high.

Right. And I think that's, that's a risk that every company has to manage and do the best that they can. But this is different. This is an overt risk. This is just an overture and saying, open the door, give us a badge, we're coming in. And this is why I think you have to deal with this case very delicately and in a different way.

Yeah. And for people who don't know, Google does what's called the transparency report, Twitter also has one. So they do try to put out by category search warrants, subpoenas, etc. Exactly how many warrants are getting and the tech companies are at least trying to be transparent about it to the extent they can.

But this is going to lead to a lot of people moving off of the cloud, I predict. We're seeing, in fact, Apple is now storing your data. And a lot of your privacy information locally on your phone. And if it's encrypted, they can't hand it over, as we saw with the the terrorist shooting in it was at San Bernardino, where they couldn't unlock the phone and they went to the Israeli spy company to do it.

So you know, I think I think the the companies here, at least in the United States want to defend their users. But this is could be make people rethink the cloud. And I've seen a couple of pitches from start, I think you're confusing issues. Of course, they're going to try to defend their users in the United States.

But what if you have if you let somebody into a different country and that Oh, yeah. It's not as if it's not as if servers are not accessible. Yeah, I'm not confusing. I'm just talking about the United States here for a minute. I do think you're going to see people buy many servers to put or rent their own cloud services that are encrypted and impossible.

to unlock. And so look for that trend to come or more companies to encrypt it and say, we don't have the keys to mouth. So isn't it crazy that like, you know, we spent the last 20 years pushing the cloud. And the thing that may actually unwind the cloud is just the utter lack of privacy that we all have now.

I've just had like, we've just created these massive honeypots, where you know, any state or non state actor can essentially just have an incredibly detailed understanding of who you are. Yep. And why because we weren't willing to pay five bucks a month for storage. Everything needed to be free.

I mean, part of isn't this part of the philosophy behind decentralized services that you know, yeah, I mean, I don't like using that term, but just decentralized services where the data doesn't sit on some centralized enterprise controlled servers, but the data is distributed either on a chain or in your phone or in some way.

You know, your identity, your information, your content isn't isn't centrally controlled. And that that fundamental principle may actually come to kind of bear over the next couple of years and decades that a consumer model, yeah, that model is more appropriate for us for me. And therefore, the services that are built that way are going to win in the market.

The challenge is ultimately how do you finance those because those services, right? I mean, they don't have as much of an economic incentive, you have to pay for them. You know, if you're willing to pay five or $10 a month for your privacy, consumers are doing it for you.

But I use the brave browser and VPNs. And these are becoming a major category. You hear it on podcast advertising all the time. DuckDuckGo brave VPNs are like VPNs aren't just for hackers anymore. They're like real like, probably bringing up something that I think that's really important, which is that you know, in over the last 20 years, for all of us, we've been building these products on the internet.

We've been building these products on the internet. And we've been building these products on the internet. And we've been building these products on the internet. And we've been building these products on the internet. And we've been building these products on the internet. And we've been building these products on the internet.

And we've been building these products on the internet. And we've basically created these expectations of consumer surplus. And we've never given people true sets of trade offs. We've always said, Oh, you'll get more. And it's essentially free, because we'll back into an advertising model that that supports us being able to give you more and more for free.

But it turns out that it has some real consequences. And I do think that not enough of us actually understand why privacy is important. But when you start to hear these examples, and it'll be important to see what what the true details are, and then we'll get to the real details.

of this Twitter situation are. I think that the pendulum starts to swing in the other direction, where we say, Okay, you know what, I'll eat out at Chipotle one night a week less. And instead, I'm going to reallocate that money to making sure that I have, you know, some amount of privacy, you can do it for 25 bucks a month, you know, two or 300 bucks a year, which is a big number for, you know, maybe the average Joe, but it's, it's, it's, it's being packaged and bundled right now.

So you're seeing the VPNs, the anonymous search engines, the browsers, all starting to bundle, they're bundling a set a suite of services. And so I think this is upon us now and consumers get it, and they want to protect their privacy. So an Apple has said this is going to be our reason for you to choose our cloud is that we're going to put the local settings, we're gonna put your data on your phone, encrypt it, we don't have access to it.

Use use Apple for this reason. Of course, they're also building a multi billion dollar ad business at the same time in Apple news, and they're going to be able to use it for their business. So I think that's a big part of the reason why they're building this app store.

So there's that I guess we should move on here. We'll we'll see what happens with this. The other big news story that people are talking about this week, and we talked about I guess last year was student loan debt relief. Interestingly, about 85 days before the midterms Joe Biden has decided to unilaterally give 10 to 20k of debt relief to people who have student loans, you have to have a student loan, have under 125k in yearly income as an individual 250 as a household.

And the student loan pause program which happened during COVID has been extended to the end of this year. I'm not sure why. There's about they explained why. Apparently, it takes four months for them to turn on their co ball written software that runs these loan services. Mighty change takes four months, it's gonna take it's gonna take four months to restart the software that that calculates your loan balance and is able to print a bill.

We're so incompetent. Okay, anyway, you have to apply for this. And as we know, student loan is student loan debt is 1.75 trillion. This is gonna cost us another 300 billion. Can't imagine what's going to happen with this 1020k people buying NF T's and stocks and housing and we're going to hit the I guess we're gonna Bloomberg Bloomberg had a report that said that, look, we we passed the inflation reduction act, we talked about it last week.

But one of the key pillars of that is that there's a 300 billion of expected revenues coming in. And we essentially turned around and just gave that back to a very, very small segment of the American population. Bloomberg's analysis was that it's going to create somewhere between point one and point 3% extra inflation on top of all of that.

And so you know, you really have to ask yourself like what, what was the White House trying to accomplish? I think number one, they made a campaign promise. And so you know, I think Biden needed to make sure that he fulfilled that. But nobody was really happy, right? The progressives wanted something extreme.

Everybody else said, you know, this is not really the right thing to do. Because it doesn't really solve the the the root cause of what we're dealing with, you know, if it would have been much better if you'd said, Hey, listen, you know, we're going to make this stuff expungable on bankruptcy, that would have been really useful.

What happens if you actually tried to I don't know, you were from the inner city, and you worked your ass off, you became a doctor, you have 300,000 in debt. But now you're a, you know, a resident and you make 126,000. Well, now you're, you know, you're kind of SOL here.

So there's a lot of folks that they probably wanted to wanted to help that they didn't help. Then there's all the blue collar folks who are like, why this giveaway only to these folks, then they're the people that paid off their loans thinking, why did I pay my loans off?

Then there's the incentives, that it creates for colleges, which is, well, I'm just going to keep jacking up tuition, because if they did it once, they may do it again. So all of these things, I think, are sort of a little bit of, you know, it's a little bit of a head scratcher.

And then the last thing which we can talk about at the end is, I don't think this is what gets people out to vote. And I don't think it's what people care about, ultimately, at the polls, which if there was a political calculation to make, that's important. And specifically, when you look at what happened last night, a bunch of these districts, every progressive candidate got absolutely shellacked.

They lost across the board. And so the progressive talking points around this stuff, fundamentally, when push comes to shove, doesn't work for democratic voters. And then second, is there was a really hotly contested seat, which was a Democrat versus a Republican. I think it's Pat Ryan versus this guy, Mark Molinaro.

Yeah, he was a Republican. He was leading the entire way. And then this guy won 51 49. And this is a very centrist down the middle. Damn. So all the signs are like, this may not have been the smartest thing to do. But I don't think Joe Biden had a choice because he made the promise and he had to live up to it.

Freeberg, is this a fair thing to do? A smart thing to do a cynical thing to do to buy votes? Where do you fall down on this issue? This is absolutely moronic. I think that the fact that 8 million, 9 million households are eligible for this relief. And 10 to $20,000 is relief is provided to a minority of Americans is exactly what Chamath said, which is kind of distorted politics at its worst.

There. This is a $300 billion bill to the US taxpayer. And the ultimate beneficiary of that bill, while we all might want to say it's the people that are getting debt relief that have taken out these student loans, that money was transferred to the United States. And that's transferred to somewhere.

And you know where it was transferred to university endowments and the profit and the pockets of for profit educational institutions. If there were a free market for education in the United States, and the government was not involved in the process of funding and supporting the educational infrastructure in this country, individual citizens would have the right and the obligation to make decisions about whether or not the money that they're spending on tuition actually has a positive.

ROI for them. By spending 10,000 or $100,000. Am I going to make more than that much money back when I graduate. And unfortunately, we've lulled our citizenry, we've lulled our country into complacency, where that decision and that calculus is no longer required. Because Uncle Sam is there to give you all the money you want to go to college.

And the hungry money hungry institutions that are there to educate you are taking that money, putting it in their endowments or in the pockets of their shareholders. And at the end of the day, it turns out that that decision may not have been the best decision. And we're no longer holding ourselves individually, to take responsibility for the decisions that we've made.

And we're creating miss incentives, because of the government programs that have been created by telling people you need to get a higher education, the government is going to pay for it for you. And it doesn't matter if it does or doesn't work, because at the end of the day, if it doesn't work, we're just going to pay it back for you anyway, we'll bail you out.

And there's a middle class in the United States of America, that is going to end up paying the tax bill primarily, because that's where most tax dollars come from, for the minority of people that made a bad decision. And it's not necessarily their fault. They made that decision because the infrastructure in the system was set up to tell them duped, yeah, go to college, get a good degree, it always works having a good life, you'll make more money.

And the and the reality is that they aren't, and that they don't the ROI for many of these degrees has been negative, you make less money than you would have if you were actually in the workforce, earning an on the ground experience and progressing your career. You do not need a degree in philosophy or history or German studies, to be able to go and be effective in the technology workforce, or in the services workforce.

And I think that we're seeing that play out. The biggest challenge now is if we're going to provide this loan relief, and not reform the educational infrastructure and the and the requirements for whether or not an educational system is eligible for support from the federal loan program, we are not actually solving the fundamental problem.

We are keeping this gravy train running. And we're not actually getting to the root cause of where this money is flowing. And this is exactly what happens. I will rehash my point that I've made 100 times at the end of empires, everyone sees that the money train is leaving the station, and everyone jumps and grabs what they can.

And that's exactly what's going on. We think that we're a rich nation, but we're becoming complacent. And this is unfortunate. And it's a really sad sign. I think we need to fix this educational infrastructure, we need to make eligibility requirements for whether or not loans are actually going to have a positive ROI for students.

And then individuals ultimately need to be educated and held accountable to whether or not they're making the right decisions for themselves. Sach should each American pay $1,000 to let these 8 million people off the hook, because that's what this is going to cost. No, of course not. I mean, I think people say I don't like you, I just gave you the softball of all softballs.

No, I mean, look, I think this is an issue where all four of us are on the same page. I agree with everything that Jamasa and what Freeberg said, I mean, this bill is unfair, or it rewards relatively well off college grads over working class people, it's going to add $300 billion to the deficit.

I mean, Joe Manchin should feel like a sucker right now because they just spent the $300 billion of supposed savings that he just agreed to. Just to add, it's unconstitutional. I mean, the Constitution expressly says, "No money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in consequence of appropriations made by law." So I don't understand how Biden can even do this by an executive order.

I expect this will be challenged and taken to the Supreme Court. And I think there's a very good chance that it'll end up like Biden's other executive orders that were ruled unconstitutional. Remember, there was the vaccine mandate that he tried to do, and there was the eviction moratorium that he tried to do, and they were both ruled unconstitutional.

I think there's a good chance that this will also be ruled unconstitutional. And like you guys mentioned, it's inflationary. I mean, these are basically STEMI checks, which we don't need right now. And it's going to make tuition go up because the more government subsidizes something, the more those providers have an incentive to raise the cost.

So this is a very good chance. And I think there's a very good chance that it'll end up like this. And this is just a jump-the-shark moment, I think, for policymaking. The question is, why are they doing it? And I think it really speaks to the nature of the Democratic Party today, which is the Democratic Party has shifted from being a blue-collar, sort of more economically populist party, economically left party, to being a professional class that is college-educated, culturally left, more woke party.

And this is the ultimate example of that, where the Democratic Party is basically passing this payoff and giveaway to their sort of woke college graduates at the expense of their blue-collar, the blue-collar part of their coalition. And a Democratic political scientist that I like to read, Roy Tushara, just today, he had a blog post called The Democrat Shifting Coalition, where he pointed out that if you look at polling, if you look at the generic ballot among white college graduates, they favor Democrats by 12 points, whereas the white working class, which is, say, non-college voters, they favor Republicans by 25 points.

So one of the biggest gaps in the electorate is college versus non-college. That is the fundamental gap. It's bigger than any other gap, than racial gaps or anything like that. This is really the key gap in the electorate. And this is a payoff to the, basically, to the new foot soldiers of the Democratic Party.

If you think about it, the old stereotype of a foot soldier of the Democratic Party would be a union representative. They were the ones getting out the vote. That person's been replaced with sort of a woke college graduate who joins the Democratic Socialists of America, and they go out and they're the ones pounding the pavement and doing the ballot harvesting.

So there's been a real change in what this party is about, and I think that's the explanation for why they're passing this really horrible piece of legislation. The MFAs, Chamath, and then we'll go to you, Freeberg. The MFAs from Sarah Lawrence College have taken over the Democratic Party. Yeah, all right.

Well, let me ask you guys a question. Yeah. When you guys graduated, everyone went to undergrad. Chamath, you went to undergrad in Canada, right? I have no grad degree. Right. But when you guys graduated college, what do you think the ratio 80/20, 90/10, 50/50, 0/100 was the first two years of experience you guys had in the workforce versus the education and knowledge you garnered in college?

How important was it? 90% workforce. 90% workforce. I went to school at night, so I was working while I was at school. Right. I would say 100 and zero. I went to a school, University of Waterloo, that has a program called co-op, where you have to alternate school and work.

It takes an extra year to graduate, but you end up getting 24 months of full-time work experience. So it was the same. And you graduate with a lot less debt. I graduated with half the debt I would have otherwise. Sacks. I mean, do you feel the same? I mean, you went and got a law degree.

That's different. I mean, look, I think that it used to be the case that people would go get these degrees and they would take out these loans because there was a perceived ROI of getting this education. And I think one of the deeper issues we have today is it's very unclear what the ROI is.

I mean, what is the return on getting a degree in social studies or art history or, frankly, some woke studies at one of these prestigious universities? Their graduates go out and they're not... They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university. They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university.

They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university. They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university. They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university. They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university.

They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university. They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university. They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university. They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university.

They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university. They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university. They're not going to be able to get a degree in a major university. qualified for a higher-paying job. Actually, I think one of the really revealing parts of this executive order is not just the debt forgiveness part.

We haven't really touched on it. There's another provision that caps repayment levels. Basically, it says that the monthly payments on undergraduate loans will be limited to 5% of monthly income. Now, who is that the payoff to? That is the payoff to the art history major from Amherst who ends up being a barista at Starbucks or the Democratic political operative who works for the DSA gathering votes.

That is who this is a payoff to. Let me give the counter-argument to you, Saxon. I want to hear your response to this. The counter-argument is, hey, listen, the airlines got bailed out for a trillion dollars cumulatively. 2008 financial crisis, $700 billion or something to that number. I'm going to respond to this.

There is a caveat to that, which is we actually made money on that bailout. I'm going to respond to this. Okay, great. Hold on. And number three, airlines, banks, and then the Trump tax break, $1.5 billion. So why can't a bunch of students get but $300 billion? That is the counter-argument.

We don't complain when the rich people get bailouts and the rich corporations and airlines do, but now we're suddenly complaining about this little pittance here. What's your best response to that, Freeberg? I'm not saying that's my position, by the way. Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary of the United States, said a tweet storm about this, and he said, you know, the student loan issue arouses passion.

Here are some observations and some responses. There is no analogy with bank bailouts. Student loans are grants that cost the government money. The bank bailouts were loans at premium interest in which the government actually turned a profit. And it's important to think about all government services being infrastructure funding, where you are funding some underlying tubing or mechanism that allows you to do that.

And I think that's a great question. that allows society and the economy to progress versus making up for the dollar mistakes or decisions that were made in the past. I also have issues, not just with this, but with the issues of people buying homes in coastal cities that they get bailed out at the price of that home at the fair market price when a hurricane hits, because they paid a premium taking on the risk of a hurricane or a flooding event hitting their home.

Why should the US government and the US taxpayer come in and say, you know what, I'm gonna reimburse you for the full value of your home, which frankly should have been 50% of what you paid for it because it's sitting on a coastline. And that's a big problem that we generally have is we try and use the government as a system for providing bailouts to make up for past investment mistakes made by individuals and businesses.

And I think that there's a very clear distinction that you can make when you decide whether or not a, and we use the term bailout anytime we're spending money, but the reality is if you're making an investment that has some payoff for economic growth and for people, and for this country to progress in some measurable way, that is a good way to assess whether or not that is a reasonable investment versus saying, you know what, I'm covering someone else's liability.

And when you do that, we're actually burning money and we're putting ourselves deeper in a hole as a nation and making it harder to do the former, to make the infrastructure investments and make the investments that allow us to move forward. And I think that that's a really good way to clarify these things.

And frankly, the list of things that people say, this is fair, this is not fair, yada, yada, go down that list and ask yourself that question. Is it a positive ROI to progress our country forward? Or is it a bailout for people that had some liability they took on that they can't cover?

And I think for all those things that are unfair, a really important point, we cannot get caught up in the endless cycle of making up for other people's unfair benefits that they got from this government. Because at the end of the day, that's a road to nowhere. We will burn through everything we have and everyone will scramble for money.

And that's the state that we're in right now, where everyone's raising their hand and they're seeing $800 billion bills, $600 billion bills, COVID relief, pandemic relief, PPP loan relief. And everyone says, well, what about me? And at the end of the day, everyone's what about me is gonna drive us into an infinite black hole that we will never get out of.

And we have to change our mindset and take individual responsibility and recognize that the dollars that we're spending have to have an ROI for progression of us as a whole. And this is a really dangerous place that we're in right now. - Two things. - Sacks, if the education- - I have two comments.

- Okay. - Can I make two comments? - Go ahead, sure, make two comments and then I'll ask a question to Sacks. - Am I too monologue-y today? I feel like I'm very passionate about- - No, no, you're doing great. I mean, the fact that you have passion about something other than a straight cat video game, yeah.

- That almond milk gave you a little- - I think those cashews set you off. Maybe four cashews going forward. - I mean, this stuff really bugged me. Guys, this stuff really bugs me, I'll be honest. - Just take it easy on the dates. - Yeah, I'm like, dude, like, this stuff just makes me feel like, what are we doing?

It just, sorry, go ahead. - Did you put chia seeds in your cereal this morning? - Yeah, that's what I said. Was it the goji berries? - The goji berries. - Go easy on the goji berries, dude. That's a superfood right there. - If you have chia seeds in the morning, it's a huge BM that's about to hit.

It's just, you're just waiting for the wave to hit. - Yeah, yeah, I mean, for sure, you're gonna be in power. - I have two comments. Comment number one is, I think the thing that shows that this could have been better is that it was completely silent on the ability to expunge your student life from student loans in bankruptcy.

The ability to discharge that is the single biggest change you could make to the system to be fair to everybody and introduce a better ROI risk scoring calculation mechanism. - Why, Shamath? Why? - Unpack them, why? - Why? - Okay, so great. - Hold on, hold on. We're in agreement.

- This is in all debt markets. - We're in agreement, but go ahead, Shamath. Explain it. - Okay, in all debt markets, right, whenever you lend money, there is an assumption of risk that you're taking and that fits on a curve of highly likely to default, zero likelihood of default, and that manifests in a risk scoring, so a FICO score, but in the debt markets, right?

And there's these companies that provide that, Moody's and S&P. They say, "You're an investment grade debt. You know, you're a triple A plus. You're a junk debt, so you're a triple B minus," or whatever. And depending on where you are, you pay different rates. This is the same in car insurance.

It's the same in home insurance. It's the same in health insurance. But in all of those cases, if you go upside down, you can declare bankruptcy and you can discharge those debts. Here, we don't have that idea. So if you go bankrupt for whatever reason, this debt will stay with you forever, which is deeply unfair.

Second is if you actually flipped it and you could allow it to be discharged, then the companies that provided these loans would be forced to risk score you. And the reason why that would be so powerful is that that would then create the forcing function for universities, to actually deliver what they promise.

And so who do you think is really against the ability to discharge in bankruptcy? It's the universities and the university endowments. So, you know, if I were progressives, the thing that I would have pushed more than a handout to a few people, which by the way, didn't even, you know, really scratch the surface of the debt that they had anyways, and it also served to piss off everybody else, I would have focused on this bankruptcy issue, because that is a meaningful lasting change.

And the second is why don't you go and actually get a large portion of this money from all these university endowments? Because the longer that these folks run what is effectively a multi-trillion dollar asset management business, they're always going to treat education and the ROI that comes from it as a second class citizen.

Okay? And that is what I think is wrong. And if you were to just fix this one thing, and then even the threat of actually confiscating some of the $50 billion that Harvard has, or the $49 billion that UTIMCO has, you would start, or the UT system has, you would start to see the seeds of change where administrators would think to themselves, I have to deliver something of value because these kids are getting loans, they're going to be risk scored.

And I don't want to be the person that's like a low end borrower, right? I'm not serving junk paper to the market. I want to serve people that are going to go and really drive a huge ROI. So then SACS, you'd have an alignment between the people giving the loan and perhaps the value of the degree.

And so you could say, hey, we'll give loans to STEM degrees at a different rate, or a different number of them, or a different amount of cash, or a different interest rate than we would for, I don't know, getting a degree in philosophy or like I did psychology, right?

You just give a different one based on the outcome. That makes total sense to me. - Makes total sense to you, yes? - Yeah, I've said for a long time that we should be allowing student debt to be discharged in bankruptcy, just like any other type of debt, just like credit card debt, just like other types of debt.

Chamath's right, that would create some risk to the underwriter so that they would have to actually assess whether this person getting that degree would be able to repay the debt. But you have to ask the question, is it a bug or a feature that they're trying to remove market forces?

And I would argue that this is deliberate, and I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this.

And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this.

And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. And I think that's the key to this. - Just based on one variable, which is whether you are professional class or working class, meaning college degree or no college degree.

And that spans across different racial groups and other party lines. So the fact of the matter is that if you go to college and get a degree, you are much, much more likely to become progressive. Now, why is that? I think it's because a lot of these colleges have basically become reeducation camps.

I mean, these are the woke madrasas of cultural activism. - That is a great quote. Wow, a woke madrasa. - It's kind of like Harvard has become like Al Qaeda. - Who wrote that one for you? I see that. - Yeah. - In fairness, came up with that line.

- Yes. - But look, these places are woke madrasas. And what do they do? They graduate these people. - I love it. - They graduate the new clerics of our woke theocracy. These people go on to become the enforcers. Hold on. - They become suicide bombers. Yes, that's exactly right.

- No, no, no. It's not like violent like that. But listen, we look down on some of these theocratic societies and we don't realize how like them we are. I mean, look, these kids who graduate from these woke madrasas, they go off and become the speech police. I mean, they go enforce community moderation at social networks.

They become the foot soldiers. - All right, let me just make a-- - Hold on, J. Cal, J. Cal, can I make a final point? - No, no. - This is the best. - J. Cal, let me say one thing. - It's true, right? How else do you explain it?

37 point gap. - Okay, J. Cal-- - So wait, so if you're in the Democratic Party, listen, if you're the Democratic Party, which is run by woke progressive political operatives, why would you want to defund the factories that are brainwashing more young students to basically join your ranks? - Okay, I want to say two things.

I want to say two things. One is I think that the university and the college degree has been used as a heuristic for progression out of blue collar to white collar. It says if you get a holler, and J. Cal, I know you can speak to this because, you know, you come from a family that works blue collar, and you know, you got a college degree, but I think there is this, you know, kind of assertion in the United States and has now become, one could argue, a meme, that if you get a college degree, you're no longer blue collar, you're now white collar.

And the reality is that the quality of that degree varies greatly based on where you go, the major, and the experience you get to accompany that degree. And as a result, you may not necessarily transfer from blue collar to white collar, but you have the degree, you say you're now white collar, and then you're working a blue collar job with $120,000 of debt.

And so that heuristic isn't true. And what we need to examine is why that heuristic is no longer true and what we can do about it. - Yeah, I mean, it's pretty-- - Secondly, I do want to make a defense for college. I think that there is a incredible benefit to broadening individuals' exposure to topics, research, and areas that they may need to explore.

And I think that there is a real benefit to broadening individuals' exposure to topics that they may not have naturally been interested in or that they will not necessarily get trained in. And there is an important role that that educational infrastructure has in allowing us to be a more enlightened populace, meaning we can understand history, we can understand philosophy, we can understand the things that shaped our world and our livelihoods and what makes us who we are today.

And we can understand the sciences and the maths that affect us so we can better understand the world and the people around us. So there is a role, but the real question is, how do you integrate that educational role into a training program or into a real-world development program?

- Skills. - Skills that basically make an educational system more than just a checkbox that doesn't actually do anything for you, but gives you that exposure accompanied by-- and maybe that's the requirement with federal loans, is that there should be some skill or some workforce-based-- - I think the minute-- - I don't want to lose the important breadth of exposure that college is meant to bring to people.

- College is meant to-- - Yeah. - Yes. And that's valid. Go ahead, Chamath, and then I'll wrap up with my final comment. - No, I was just going to say, I really think people do not understand how meaningful of a change it would be if you were able to discharge your student debt in bankruptcy.

It is the most powerful market function we could create to make these universities more accountable. And I think if you guys look at my annual letter, I put a chart in there, but part of the problem that we have in these universities, these leading universities, is that these have become graveyards.

There is a gerontocracy that runs these things with an iron fist. And as these folks have stayed in these jobs for enormous amounts of time now, 40, 50 plus years, the average person is in their mid to late 70s now who are the administrators of our leading institutions. They are focused on running up endowments, and they are focused on the power and the influence that comes with their position.

So I implore anybody who has any ability to actually achieve this change, there should not be a single logical person that should not support the ability to discharge student debt in bankruptcy. And you will identify the insider establishment by those that try to stop you. You will expose them 100%.

And I just want to put a closing thing here for the people listening who have young people making these decisions. When we all went to college as Gen Xers, college was $9,000, $10,000, $11,000 a year in tuition. And if you came out with $10,000, $10,000, $10,000, and you had an average job or a salary of double or triple that when you graduated, it seemed like a good deal.

The ROI broke. Now, market forces are at work here. I just want to point out two of them. Number one, there is a website, Grow with Google. You can just look up right now. They're allowing people to get professional certificates, and this is free. And if you could pull up Grow with Google, they've identified five different paths to jobs.

One of them is digital marketing and e-commerce. One is IT support, data analytics, project management, and UX design. They have essentially looked at what's needed in the world and aligned a three to six months online course for fucking free. That'll get you a job. And you, if you have executive function, the ability to sit down, shut up, and learn, can do this first before you make the decision to go $100,000 in debt and then get a $50,000 a year job.

Here, these jobs average, you know, 60, 70, 80k a year, and you can do it. You can do it for free. The next piece that the private market is doing, you and I looked into this, Chamath, actually, together, ISAs, income sharing agreements. We were lucky enough to invest in a company called Meritas.

They are providing ISAs for a college, Colorado Mountain College, for nursing. What this means is they will give you your tuition for free. It's educate now, pay later. If you go to one of these colleges for nursing, you get educated, and then you pay it back, and you're capped at paying back like two times whatever the loan is, whatever the college decides.

But they take the risk, as opposed to Harvard with $40 billion. That takes no fucking risk. And so the free market, I think, can also solve this. But you have to sit down with your kids and say, "Let's have an ROI calculation." At 20k in debt, you know, okay, fine.

You got a philosophy degree. By the way, Sachs, final question for you. I posted this thing in the group chat, but what do you guys think about this, you know, Republican tidal wave becoming a Republican ripple? That's what I'm thinking. That's what... Yeah. That's... It was an odd set of outcomes, don't you think, for...

Yeah, no question. I mean, Biden... Look, Biden has had a good run over the last few weeks. There's no question about... I'm sorry, my audio cut out one more time, Sachs. Can you say it again? I'll say it again. The Cook Political Report says that the red wave looks more like a red ripple.

No, I think it's right. Well, look, I think a couple of things happened. So first, Biden has got some wins legislatively. I don't think it's good policy. I don't think this executive order is good policy. I don't think the $750 billion of climate that pretends to be an Inflation Reduction Act, I don't think that's good policy.

But nonetheless, he has delivered some goodies for his base, for his donors. And that has basically ameliorated the story in the press that Democrats are in disarray. So you're not hearing that. In addition, I think Biden's got two things going for him, Dobbs and Jobs. I mean, Dobbs, there's no question, Dobbs has helped the Democrats quite a bit, certainly has motivated their base.

But Jobs' report has been strong. Look, I think overall, the economic data is mixed. Real wages are not keeping up with inflation, but Jobs has so far been strong. So yeah, there's no question that Democrats are in a materially better position than they were in June when it looked like a tsunami.

That being said, the election is still 10 weeks away. And I think we'll have to see what happens. And I think the economy is still in a pretty fragile state. So 10 weeks is still a long time. But yes, you're right. Yeah. So where things are looking right now, things are a lot better for Biden.

And by the way, I do think the Republicans have some issues with candidate quality. And so there's a couple of races that should have been more slam dunks than that are not. But yeah, there's no question. What was the first word you used there? You said Dobbs and Jobs?

What was the first word? Dobbs and Jobs. Abortion. Ah. The Dobbs case. Yeah. Got it. Got it. Okay. Okay. I just didn't hear it perfectly. Weren't a lot of these wins for Biden bipartisan? Well, no. The Inflation Reduction Act was passed on straight party. Yeah. I think it's a pretty good thing.

Yeah. I think it's a pretty good thing. I think it's a pretty good thing. I think it's a pretty good thing. I think it's a pretty good thing. I think it's a pretty good thing. I think it's a pretty good thing. I think it's a pretty good thing. I think it's a pretty good thing.

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