Well, happy Thanksgiving, everyone. This episode releases on the evening of the holiday, and we pray that your day has been full of gratitude for God's kindness. And Pastor John, as we look forward now to another weekend, today's timely question is about corporate worship. It's from a listener named Scott.

"Dear Pastor John and Tony, thank you for this podcast. On this show, I've heard you say that no one can truly worship God without enjoying Him. It's been a big indictment to me for the many occasions in church when I have participated in the service without any feelings of joy in God for who He is.

So my question is, should we still try to worship God even when we aren't enjoying Him? Or should we wait for the enjoyment to come first, seeking it out prior to the beginning of our musical worship? I have a feeling you're going to say that we should go ahead and try and pray for enjoyment.

So then can we work back from an action to a state of heart? That is, can going through the motions of worship produce in us the sort of heart that would bring forth that same worship spontaneously?" Pastor John, what would you say to Scott? The short answer to that last question is yes.

You can't work backward like that. That is possible if, if, if, if done in the right way. And before I try to sum up what that right way is, let me point Scott to pages 96 and 97 of the book Desiring God, because that's where I pose this very question and give it the best answer I know how.

So pages 96 and 97, I think it's the most recent edition of Desiring God. In that section I actually use the moment of worship and the act of our giving a tithe in that moment as an act of worship when I don't feel like it. Should I give a tithe when I don't feel like it as the, you know, the plane is coming down the aisle and I have to choose whether to do that act of worship because I ought to and I don't feel like it or not.

But instead of just rehearsing what I wrote on those pages, which seems cheap, let me come at it another way and use another analogy. I have been really helped by a couple of books by Edward John Carnell, who used to teach at Fuller Seminary over 50 years ago and died just before I got there as a student.

But some of his legacy remained. And in his really amazing book called Christian Commitment, and if you can get it, it's timeless in its penetration. So Christian Commitment, it's called. Not what you think probably when you hear that phrase. He says this, "Suppose a husband asks his wife if he must kiss her goodnight.

Her answer is, 'You must, but not that kind of must.' What she means is this," and I'm still quoting Carnell, "What she means is this, 'Unless a spontaneous affection for my person motivates you, your overtures are stripped of all moral value.'" So this is like me saying no one can truly worship God without enjoying him.

He's saying no one can kiss his wife with any moral value if it doesn't come from a spontaneous affection rather than simply, "I guess I have to because that's what husbands and spouses do," like tithing or singing a hymn in church or whatever. That's the analogy. But now let's analyze what Carnell says a little more closely.

He doesn't give the whole truth here. What he says is basically right, I think, but he points to the truth. The wife says, "Yes, you do have to kiss me goodnight." In other words, it is for a good husband a moral obligation. And what she means is that showing outward affection for a wife is what a husband ought to do.

He ought to do that. No outward affection, failure of duty. It's a duty, and he ought to do his duty. And she admits that. But then she makes the amazingly penetrating observation that there are different ways to perform a duty. And some are empty, and some are full. Some have moral value, and some don't have moral value.

So Jesus said in vain, in vain, empty, "Do people worship me because their heart is far from me?" So Jesus knew exactly what she's talking about. She probably got it from Jesus, right? "Of course it is their duty to worship me," Jesus would say, or God would say, "but their outward forms of worship have lost all moral value because they're empty.

They don't have any affection in them for me." Now, my question is, is there no third alternative between an empty, duty-driven, perfunctory kiss on the one hand, and a spontaneously joyful, affectionate, warm, heartfelt, mouth-to-mouth kiss on the other hand? Anything in between those two? And Scott's question is, is it possible to work back from the kiss that doesn't have affection to the kiss that does have affection?

And I said, "Yes, can the act of kissing without affection be a proper step toward kissing with affection?" So Scott's raising the very question I'm raising when I wrote those pages and right now. Is there a third kind of kiss? And I would argue that there absolutely is a third kind of kiss between a mere perfunctory, empty, emotionless kiss on the one hand, and a full-blooded, romantic, affectionate kiss on the other hand.

And that third kind of kiss, while not having the robust, full affections of delight and cherishing, nevertheless is not the same as a mere perfunctory, empty, hypocritical, emotionless kiss. So what are the marks? That's the key question. I think he's asking, and I'm asking, what are the marks of this third kind of kiss or third kind of act of worship on Sunday morning?

Here they are. Here are the marks of this good kiss, which is not all it should be. And I say good because it's not fake. It's not hypocritical. Number one, the heart behind this kiss does not say, "Oh, well, it's the action that counts. Action doesn't matter. Husbands are supposed to kiss their wife.

I'll just do the act." The heart behind this third kind of kiss renounces such a way of kissing. Number two, it regrets the absence of appropriate affection for the wife. It regrets. This is a sadness to him. He does not justify it. He laments it. He repents of it.

He's not going to say, "Oh, it's just because I'm tired," or whatever. Number three, he is not content with this state of affairs, and whatever the cause is, he wants it to change. He wants to do all he can to see his proper affections restored. He wants the affections that he doesn't have.

He is like the psalmist in Psalm 51, "Restore to me the joy of my kissing the Lord." He says, "Restore to me the joy of my salvation, kissing her." Number four, he whispers a silent prayer to God to give him grace, help him feel for his wife, to restore what's gone away for a day or gone away for a year.

He really prays. Number five, he kisses her, kisses her in hope, humble hope that the very act of kissing will be part, not the whole, but part of God's way of restoring his affections. Six, he takes whatever other steps he can to remove obstacles to affection and to restore his heart for his wife.

So, Scott's question was—this is a direct quote, now, if I remember what you said—"Can going through the motions of worship produce in us the sort of heart that would bring forth the same worship spontaneously?" And my answer is, it's probably not helpful to call this kind of kissing or worshipping "going through the motions." That has too many ugly connotations.

But if he means singing the songs, praying the prayers, giving the tithe, listening to the sermon, with these six steps in play, then yes. Yes. This is a third way of worship between robust, fully engaged, affectional expression on the one hand, and lifeless, empty, hypocritical, going through the motions on the other hand.

And that third way, as inadequate as it is for our complete satisfaction, and God's fullest honor, is a good strategy for getting to where we ought to be. That's a great analogy. Thank you, Pastor John. And thank you for listening to the podcast over at our online home. You can explore all of our episodes in our archive of about 1,300 episodes to date now.

There you can see a list of our most popular episodes, read full transcripts, and submit a question you might be wrestling with yourself. For all of that, go to DesiringGod.org/AskPastorJohn. And also be sure to subscribe to us in your favorite podcast app. Well, next week we are back with three episodes about Christian hedonism.

It's the heart of what we do here. On Monday, we're going to look at the relationship between Christian hedonism and Reformed theology. And on Wednesday, we're going to look at Pastor John's expectations and hopes and fears about the future of Christian hedonism after he's gone. And then we end the week on Friday looking at the name Desiring God and some alternatives and why Pastor John settled on the phrase Desiring God.

It's an important week coming up, but today, happy Thanksgiving again on behalf of Pastor John and the whole team at Desiring God. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here on Monday. 1 Desiring God and the New Testament, and the New Testament in the New Testament. 1 Desiring God and the New Testament, and the New Testament in the New Testament.