- Are you a list maker? Like do you wake up in the morning and make lists and cross things off and then decide what are the key items on that list? - No, I'm a time blocker. - Time blocker, okay. - Yeah, so I'm not a big believer in to-do list.

I like to grapple with the actual available time. Like, okay, I have a meeting here. I have to like pick my kids up from school here. Here's the actual hours of the day that are free and where they fall. All right, what do I want to do with that time?

Well, okay, now that I see that there's a lot of gaps in the middle of the day here, they're short. Maybe there I'm gonna do a lot of small, non-comically demanding thing. Oh, this first 90 minutes in the morning is like the main time I have uninterrupted. Okay, so this I'm gonna work on writing.

So I've been a big believer of this since I was an undergrad. Like you give your time a job as opposed to having a list, which is somewhat orthogonal to what's actually happening in your day. And then just as you go through your day saying, what do I want to try to do next?

Which I think is a lot less efficient. - I'm gonna try your method. I try and structure my days as much as I can, but it just never quite works. Do you work late into the night or are you, no? - No, I'm a 5.30 man. - Okay, so 5.30 PM, that's it?

- Yeah, more or less, that's my cutoff. Now, the one exception is if I'm writing on deadline, I'll sometimes, like if I need to get more writing done, I can do an evening writing session, which I got used to through long experience. I used to write my blog post at night after like my kids went to bed.

Now they're older and they don't go to bed as early. So it's like the one thing I have left that I'll do after 5.30 is like every once in a while, I'll do like a 90 minute evening writing block. But I call this, by the way, this whole philosophy, I call fixed schedule productivity.

I've been doing it since I was a grad student. Fixed to work hour schedule. That's my commitment. I work in these hours. And then work downstream from that for everything else. So like this controls like even what you decide to bring into your life because you know I can't go past a schedule.

And it drives you to be more innovative in how you deal with your time and schedule. You have to be efficient because you only have these hours here. That's been a signal for my life since I was in my early 20s. Fixed to schedule and don't work outside of that schedule.

Now it's your move to figure out anything you wanna do, you have to make that work. You wanna become a professor, figure out how to make that work. You wanna write books while you're being a professor, figure out how to make that work. You don't have the option of just throwing hours at it.

And you innovate a lot, I think, when you have the constraints. - Where do sleep and exercise fit into your schedule? What's your typical to bedtime, wake up time? What's your typical exercise routine? And the reason I ask about this is because I think nowadays we, hopefully people understand that exercise and cognitive function are inextricably linked.

And we're all going to live longer lives and be sharper mentally by doing exercise. - Yeah, so I mean, my main, like actual working with weights, I do this pre-dinner, right? And this was an innovation in the last couple of years. It's fantastic psychologically for me. This is a transition from work to like family time after work.

So I'll do like 45, 50 minutes garage gym, you know, that we built during COVID. After I'm done working, before dinner. And once you get used to that, like it also forces you like, I gotta finish work 'cause I gotta get this in before dinner. But then I'll do also quite a bit of walking if it's not a teaching day, so I'm not on campus.

I do a lot of thinking on foot, you know, walking my kids to the bus stop, which isn't particularly close and back. So I'll do a lot of walking, but that's when I, my serious exercise now is always pre-dinner. Then I wanna be up, you know, in our room by 10.

And then at that point I don't track. So I have insomnia issues, which actually has been like key driver of a lot of the things I think about, especially with slow productivity, is I'm very wary because I can, without any control on my own, just find myself unable to sleep sometimes.

- Fall asleep or stay asleep? - Fall asleep, yeah. I mean, I used to get it really bad. Not so bad now, but you know, it comes and goes. That really affected the way I thought about productivity because it seemed like to me, the definition of just, I get after it with a bunch of stuff wasn't really on the table because if my notion of productivity depended on me, like every day being able to just like hammer on a bunch of stuff, I'm very busy, I have lots of commitments, what would happen if I couldn't sleep?

I wouldn't be able to do that. So I drifted naturally towards a definition of productivity, which was it doesn't really matter if you work tomorrow, but it is important that like this month you work, like writing a book. It doesn't matter if you work on your book chapter tomorrow in particular, but like this month you have to spend a lot of time working on it.

So it was like an insomnia compatible definition of productivity was sort of morphed into this idea of slow productivity, taking your time with it. So it's interesting. So like sleep issues really shaped the way I thought about work and put me on these much longer timescales of productivity. Try not to be dependent on any particular day being critical to what you do.

I don't want the high stress situation. I don't want the, like, I'm just gonna 10 hours a day for the next 10 days, we're gonna make this deal happen. Like I can't operate in that space 'cause I worry about it anytime my brain could betray me and I could like lose sleep for a couple of days.

- I think it's really important that you're sharing this because while people's challenges differ, I think oftentimes people hear the content of my podcast or other podcasts and think, oh gosh, I have to have everything dialed in just right. When in fact, most all of the tools and protocols that have been discussed on the Huberman Lab podcast are in response to a particular challenge that I've had or that others close to me have had.

And I love this. Well, I'm sorry that you suffer from insomnia. We have a series on sleep with Matt Walker in which he lays out some great tools that we haven't yet discussed on the podcast. I'll just send you, I'll text you, I'll call you with a short list of those and hopefully they'll help.

But as we do cover insomnia in some depth, but I think it's important that people realize that they can be very productive with the hours that they have and the moments or hours of high focus clarity that they have, even if they're not sleeping great, even if they're raising small children because that's the real world.

And certainly that's the real world of deadlines and academia, but family and colds and flus and travel and jet lag and arguments and all the happy stuff too, vacations. So sounds like you're very good at adapting your day to what's going on around it, but that you have certain sort of committed time.

Am I correct in assuming that you have at least one period of say 60 to 90 minutes of real, what you would call deep work, let's say at least five days a week. I know that might be an underestimate, but it seems like that's what I'm extracting from this.

- That's the goal, right? So to me, depending on the season is how extreme that can get. So the busiest season would be like a teaching semester, right, but even then I'm gonna make sure that five days a week, I'm starting with deep work and the non-teaching days are more than the teaching days.

Compare that to the summer, for example, where like all I do for the most part is deep work, no meetings on Mondays and Fridays, all admin stuff is midday to early afternoon, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. Everything else is deep work, just locked in hours at a time. But I want, if I'm not getting five days, five days of starting the day with deep work, I'm unhappy, right?

Because I mean, I keep coming back to this is, okay, because I'm not gonna be able to, I mean, fortunately the insomnia doesn't bother, it hasn't bothered me in years, but the threat of it like completely shaped the way I think about things. And because I know I'm never gonna be, I have sort of like an Elon Musk style energy of like, I can just take on seven companies and make it happen, right?

I just don't have that ability. I've always focused on the long game. And to me, the long game plays out with get your deep work time in. You know, just keep working on the stuff you do best and get better at it. You know, tomorrow doesn't matter. But if you're doing this most days for the next four months, like that's gonna matter, you know?

And so I often think about productivity in my own life at the scale of decades. Like what do I wanna do in my 20s? You know, okay, what do I wanna do in my 30s? You know, what do I wanna do in my 40s? You know, and that helps.

Like in my 30s, I had a lot of young kids. Like it's, yeah. I mean, the amount of time I could spend total working is like much less, right? But I could still think about what do I wanna do in my 30s? How do I make that happen? Let me make sure I'm pushing like on those things.

Then everything else I can adapt to, I can give here and there. You know, it allows you to be very adaptable when you're thinking about what do I wanna do, you know, for the next 10 years. It also means you're not on a random Tuesday chiding yourself because like, why didn't I get three more hours of work?

That becomes sort of a nonsensical question. And what you care about is like what happens in the next decade, which is, that's the long game. It's not about, you know, hustling today. It's about I came back to deep work day after day after day when other people got distracted by TikTok.

You know, like I gotta, you know, whatever. It's that coming back to what matters again and again. - Thank you for tuning in to the Huberman Lab Clips channel. If you enjoyed the clip that you just viewed, please check out the full length episode by clicking here.