If you're going to go out in the morning, in the summer, you're going to get much brighter. That's why I don't like the change in time. I know people think, "Oh, because you're biased, you..." Because I think... Wait, wait, wait. Sorry. The change in time, you're talking about daylight savings?

Daylight saving. It's such a bad idea because it disrupts that rhythm that you're having. Because I think your body, if you keep that rhythm, you will see the whole seasonality. And I look at it from a different aspect than other people. It really... And people say, "I'm biased because I'm a morning person." And it may be true.

But there's a situation... Secret conspiracy about morning people. Yeah. But there is... If you think about it, Andrew, there is a situation where you're getting light perfectly well and then all of a sudden, they delay it by one hour because... And then, even though it's the summer, your body now, if you're still not adjusting, think, "Oh, wait.

What happened? What kind of happened?" I love that you're bringing this up because I always thought, what's the big deal? One hour. Right? One hour shift. Spring forward, fall back. It's so hard to adjust to one hour. But this goes back to the beginning of our discussion. It's not just one hour.

Right. Because it's one hour across that one day. But there's this cumulative effect on the clock and these three elements of your tripartite model. Right? The homeostatic sleep and the direct effects on mood. And when it's so close, it's sometimes hard to figure out how to adjust it perfectly.

Because we're already sleep-deprived in our society and then you shift it. So it all accumulates and it has no benefit. Well, you work at a major government organization, National Institute of Mental Health. Why don't we campaign for- Honestly, I have no idea. I mean, it makes no sense. No, I'm saying, why don't we go campaign for- Yeah, I would love to.

I mean, it makes no sense to have the summer light goes up at 9 p.m. The light goes down where I live in Baltimore at 9 p.m. And then all of a sudden, when you really want to see the light longer in the day, you now shift the other way.

And now it goes all of a sudden at 6 p.m. Why do you do these drastic changes? Well, let it blend across the whole season. You know, yes, later, earlier at night, but it's at least consistent. It goes in a very consistent manner. I just don't understand why they do this.

It makes no sense. Well, I think that the reason they do it is because they don't understand the biology. Because one hour seems trivial unless you understand the repercussions of that one hour shift. Because what's also clear now, based on what you're saying, is that that one hour shift is taking you out of alignment with the natural light-dark cycle in exactly the wrong direction.

It's pushing people to get even later. In the summer, when light is going to push you later anyway, it doesn't make sense. You put it beautifully. I just rambled. No, no. You made it clear. I mean, it's like literally it made people who are having problems having an advanced sleep rhythm because they are delayed.

Now you give them this hour to make them even more delayed. You push them even later in the day-night cycle. It just doesn't make sense at all. I think 2022 should be the year that we abolish daylight savings. Oh, man. That would be the day for me, honestly. Well, also if it has a positive effect on what is essentially an epidemic of mental health issues and other issues related to improper interactions with light, that, I think, is a well worthwhile cause and we can explore it.

So for once, we're going to fight with another group, a common battle, as opposed to with one another. I mean, the circadian people, honestly, to give them credit, have been trying for years to abolish daylight savings. Yeah, the problem is they all go to sleep at 9 p.m. and wake up at 4 a.m.

so we never see them. That's right. No, the circadian community has done an amazing job of figuring out what we need. And then the challenge, of course, is making sure that people get what they need and making sure that at a societal level, we're not vaulting ourselves into the wrong direction.

The biggest problem is that the late waking people, they think that really, and I'm going to try to put it in a better way now, they think, "Oh, because you're a morning person, you want to see the sun early, so you want me to suffer it dropping late." But that's not the case because what happens is when they shift it back after the daylight saving, now they're going to make you suffer really badly because now it's going to be earlier.

Right, in the fall. In the fall when there's not enough light, if they keep it the same way. So try to convince them that actually this at the end causes more trouble when you need the light for your late schedule in the fall when they shift it back. Then they say, "Keep it daylight saving all the time." And that has been proven.

That is very bad. Like people have done studies that literally two areas close to each other and areas that were the whole year on daylight saving has much more problems. Even in cancer rates, in depression. So you don't want to do that. So that's what trying to convince people that you need to prevent that switch and you don't need daylight saving at all.

That's where the problem happens. Interesting. I had not thought about that, but yes, you late risers in the fall when you fall back, as they say, spring forward, fall back, you dial back the clock. It's really compounding the problem that already exists. Exactly. And it's really nice if you keep it consistent.

In the spring, you get the equinox and then the days start going up. And then even in the summer start going down, and then the fall, you get the other equinox and go back. So it's very symmetrical, right? It goes into short day, longer, long, long, long, then short day again.

But now you're getting these bumps in both sides of the spring and fall. Why would you do that? Something that is beautifully symmetrical, beautifully smooth, you're putting bumps into it. Well, and we are not just beautiful because it's there, but it, but evolved. I mean, essentially this is the system we evolved in for hundreds of thousands of years.

Even apart from the exact equator, every part of the earth have seasonality. Right. Yeah. Yeah. you you