- You're always at the edge of the set of principles you've developed, you're doing new things always. - Right. - That's where the intellect is needed. - Well, and the inspiration. The inspiration is needed to do that, right? Like, what are you doing it for? It's the excitement. - So what is that thing?

What is that thing? - The adventure, the curiosity, the hunger. - What's, if you can be Freud for a second, what's in that subconscious? What's the thing that drives us? - I think you can't generalize of us. I think different people are driven by different things. There's not a common one, right?

So, like if you would take the shapers, I think it is a combination of subliminally, it's a combination of excitement, curiosity. - Is there a dark element there? Is there demons, is there fears? Is there, in your sense, something dark that drives them? - Most of the ones that I'm dealing with, I have not seen that.

I see the, what I really see is, whoo, if I can do that, that would be the most dream. And then the act of creativity, and you say, ooh. So excitement is one of the things. Curiosity is a big pull, okay? And then tenacity, you know, okay, to do those things.

But definitely, emotions are entering into it. Then there's an intellectual component of it, too, okay? It may be empathy. Can I have an impact? Can I have an impact? The desire to have an impact, that's an emotional thrill. But it also has empathy. And then you start to see spirituality.

By spirituality, I mean the connectedness to the whole. You start to see people operate those things. Those tend to be the things that you see the most of. - And I think you're gonna shut down this idea completely, but there's a notion that some of these shapers really walk the line between sort of madness and genius.

Do you think madness has a role in any of this? Or do you still see Steve Jobs and Elon Musk as fundamentally rational? - Yeah, there's a continuum there. And what comes to my mind is that genius is often at the edge, in some cases, imaginary genius, is at the edge of insanity.

And it's almost like a radio that I think, okay, if I can tune it just right, it's playing right. But if I go a little bit too far, it goes off, okay? And so you can see this. Kay Jamison was studying bipolar. What it shows is that that's definitely the case, 'cause when you're going out there, that imagination, whatever, is at the, can be near the edge sometimes.

Doesn't have to always be. (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence) (silence)