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My name is Joshua Sheets and I'm your host. Got an interview for you today with the guys behind the website choosefi.com. Going to tell us their story and share some of their tips with us. Had a chance to sit down with Jonathan and Brad, the business partners behind the website choosefi.com.

The tagline of their website is "Experiments in Financial Independence." I caught up with them a couple weeks ago at Camp Mustache Southeast, as you may have noticed. I'm bringing you steadily, little by little, many of the interviews from that. This interview is a bit of a potpourri of topics.

It's fairly casual, fairly discussion-oriented. It's a little bit of Jonathan and Brad's stories, some of what they have learned in their own journey towards financial independence, the mistakes that they have made, the things that they have done well. Talk a little bit about travel hacking, about various approaches to financial independence, and I think you're really going to enjoy it.

So Jonathan and Brad, welcome to Radical Personal Finance. Yeah, thanks so much for having us. We're here at Camp Mustache Southeast and you guys have a podcast and we're here at this kind of mustachian roundup and figured it'd be great to get you guys on the show and have you share, help you with some publicizing your podcast a little bit and just share your story with my audience.

So I don't know what to do when I got to look at two guys here. I don't know what your relationship is. I don't know how you guys got together, what the whole back story is here. So who wants to start and fill me in on the path of how you wound up in this space and doing what you're doing?

Let me go first because I'm usually all over the map and then Brad is better at dialing us in on what our true focus is. Yeah, he really keeps us on point on a lot of things because my brain just goes in 20 different places. Brad and I met back in 2016 and we met as a result, really he's already kind of developed himself as a site authority in the specific art of travel hacking, which maybe he can talk about, but he is really an expert in that place and he's built a website, TravelMiles101, that I won't steal a slender and talk about necessarily, but he teaches people basically how to travel the world for free.

And I heard him on the Mad Scientist podcast. When you're in the space that we're in, you tend to listen to the same blogs and podcasts as everybody else because you're voracious, you're constantly wanting to learn, right? And I heard him on the Mad Scientist and I was exposed to this really cool world of travel hacking and I found out as part of that podcast that he lived in Richmond and the common thing you hear is there's nobody that I can talk to about this stuff.

You're interested, you want to explore this world of financial independence, but when you talk about it with your neighbors, you can only talk to them for so long before they stop sending you Christmas cards. So that was the impetus for me to get in touch with, to reach out and get in touch with Brad and just say, "Could we just get lunch and talk about some ideas?" And that's really all it was, although I hadn't started anything at that point and was interested in maybe doing that, I really did just want to meet a like-minded someone in that space.

And so we sat down for lunch and just talked about stuff that we were both interested in. Now he's in travel hacking, but he also has a website called Richmond Savers and was very much in this financial independence space as well and I just wanted to hash out some of those ideas with him.

So that's really just, that was our first meeting. So Brad, you've been doing online stuff for a long time. Yeah, I have. This is, I guess I'm about five years in now. So yeah, started richmondsavers.com at first and it was just a generic personal finance blog essentially, but we wound up getting some publicity for a trip to Disney World that we put together for my family.

So we wound up travel hacking that for, I think we saved $4,000. Yeah, just using credit card rewards points. So we're opening up, hold on, take a step back, is my wife and I are both CPAs in our real lives. So we started hearing about this travel hacking, right?

And it sounds kind of nefarious and a little odd, but it's opening up very targeted credit cards to get these massive signup bonuses. So we were able to turn that into, like I said, saved about $4,000. We spent I think $150 total on the trip for how many people?

It was for the four of us. So I had two, yeah, two young daughters and actually we went, since you asked, we went with our, my parents and my wife's parents as well. So it was this amazing three generation trip and we just kind of got some publicity in the New York Times and NBC, CBS and my tiny little Richmond Savers website all of a sudden is on the map.

And I realized there are a lot of people like us who can benefit essentially from this concept of travel hacking. So yeah, so kind of fast forward a couple of years and Jonathan reaches out to me and I hear financial independence, Richmond and burgers, right? And I'm just sold.

- He'll take that lunch date. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was, that's a lunch I'll take a hundred times out of a hundred. So as you'll hear on this podcast, Jonathan has a million ideas and he's a really smart guy, really interesting. And I'll take a lunch like that anytime.

And we just kind of became friends over the course of months and basically this last year. And Jonathan had this great idea for Choose FI and I'll throw it over to him to kind of talk about. - Yeah, no. So I did get a chance to sit down with him and just talk about financial independence.

And I think even during that lunch, I was thinking, there's one thing I'm not really seeing. I'm getting a lot of great contact, a lot of great content and a lot of information, but it's so fragmented. And you're always trying to find how does that information fit my life and my journey and where I'm at now.

And you're in a place where you almost want to design your own curriculum to take, help middle-class America build wealth one life hack at a time. That's kind of a tagline, I get that. - That's fantastic tagline. - Yes, yes, yes, right. - Well, we've been working on that.

- Copyright, copyright, shift that mic quickly, quickly. But that's what you want. Everything is this journey and in this journey, you make choices and hopefully you're satisfied with the choices that you've made up to this point. But I really wanted to, I think there's a need out there to build something that helps take people from where they are to where they want to be and actually model it for them.

It's really hard to relate to a millionaire or a billionaire, someone that's completely got it made. You don't necessarily see the things that they did to actually get there. Even though I'm sure they had to work very hard and they put a lot of time in, all you see is that they're actually doing it.

And whenever you go to a blog that's very developed, it's really hard to actually go back to the beginning and find out where they started and find out what that journey actually looks like. And I know it's what I do. Anytime I find a new blog, I don't go to the latest article.

It may get me to check it out further, but if I like that latest article, I immediately want to go to the beginning. And nobody does it that way. The way RSS feeds are aggregated, you always look at the latest content and the oldest content is buried. You just can't find it.

So my idea that I said is let's just take people on a journey that's step by step and walks through what everybody has to do. I mean, it's a very simple plan for financial independence. You need to slash your expenses. You need to create margin in your life. And then you can either, and then it's what you're going to do with that margin.

You have options, right? You could just invest it passively if you have enough of it, or you could build a business. I mean, you have a lot of flexibility. But what does that actually look like? It's fine to say that. It's fine to make a tagline. But what does that actually look like on a step by step basis?

So Brad got really excited about that. I mean, I was really excited about that. I can talk nonstop about it for an hour to anybody that will listen to me. And he said, "That sounds awesome." So anyways, we left that conversation and that was it. It was fun. It's fun to talk about.

I think I'm going to do something. He contacts me two months later by text or email and says, "Hey man, did you end up starting anything?" I'm rolling to bed to go back to my nine to five. Like, nothing. Nothing had been done on it, right? And isn't that the case?

How many great conversations do you have that are just dust in the wind, right? So I'm rolling to bed on my nine to five and I sheepishly text him back, "Actually, you know I haven't done anything yet, but you know what? I'm going to." So I came up with the branding that probably within a day or a week of that, choose FI, which is you choose financial independence.

It's a choice. And I got the domain name and I got the blog. And then I said, "Brad, can we sit back down and do lunch?" And he didn't know this was coming, but I sat back down with him and we laid it out and I said, "You know, I can do this on my own.

I'm a tech guy. You know, I have confidence in my abilities. I can build all this stuff up, but I think it would be really cool if we just did it together." Yeah, absolutely. And then that's kind of a segue into the power of partnerships because that is blossoming.

And our website now, you know, we have a website that's essentially brand new and new websites really have no business being ranked for the first year or two. There's an organic process, but Brad already has site authority in a few different areas. We have contacts that we can bring really, we can bring thought leaders and influencers, you know, that maybe you shouldn't be able to get as a brand new blog or a podcast, potentially.

So we can bring these thought leaders on. But the whole idea is instead of just doing interviews, right? Which there's a fair number of interviews that are done. We want to get back in there and bring them on as it fits the story. As you know, we want to bring them because they figured something out.

I don't know everything. Brad doesn't know everything. We're two regular guys, but we want to bring those thought leaders on as they fit the journey, as they fit the story. And then we want to get them help us with those steps as we're proceeding through it and then document it for you because you don't need to be the smartest person.

You don't need to be a doctor. You need to be a little bit smarter than average America and then just actually pay attention to stuff and make the right choices. So the concept then is it's primarily about each of your individual stories with your families, but you're bringing people in to give you advice.

So you're sitting and asking questions. Do I understand that clearly? Yeah. Well, we're trying to crowdsource on some level, certainly. So you're right there. But I think what we're trying to describe it as is experiments in financial independence. So it's, we don't have all the answers. We're going to screw up.

We're going to fail miserably on some things and we're going to succeed wildly on others. But we're going to try to document every step of the way and then come up with like an 80/20 analysis essentially where people can say, okay, this, this will work for me. This won't work for me.

You know, and they can, they can look at it and actually discern what would be valuable for my life essentially. So I think that's kind of the starting point. Yeah. No. And there's so many different places that can go. You know, the one common theme, you know, Dave Ramsey has done an amazing job.

Most of us respect Dave Ramsey. He's done an amazing job getting people out of debt and off the financial cliff. Right. And I think most of us agree that he just kind of gives up at some point and says, now go invest and give or go build wealth and give.

Right. Right. It's a pretty empty, vague picture. Like what does that actually look like? Right. Um, so you know, we're not getting the people off the financial cliff in every case, although we think we have good content for that, but we're kind of focusing on that space where you now realize there's a problem and you know how to balance a checkbook and do our things, but you want to do it a little bit smarter and you want someone to model it for you and show you, you know, kind of a progressive series of steps, what is actually available.

And I think one of the interesting things is, you know, different perspectives, right? So you know, I'm farther along the financial independence path, you know, probably maybe two to three years out at this point. And Jonathan has a fantastic story. So he killed, he paid off, excuse me, 168,000.

Jonathan killed the guy. It was a bad guy. It was a dark day in my life. Jonathan killed. Jonathan is now financially independent. After eight years of jail time, good behavior. So he is a pharmacist. He came out of pharmacy school three and a half years ago with $168,000 in debt.

He's set to pay it off in about two months. 168k. Congratulations. I'm going to do that I'm debt free scream. You know what I'm talking about? Exactly. That's right. That's right. So I mean, this is the perfect experiment in financial independence, right? I mean, he is literally at net worth zero, or he very soon will be.

He has this amazing, amazing amount of margin, right? Because he's been spending, you know, paying down 50k a year. And all of a sudden he has 50k or thereabouts, you know, 30 to 50k to play with. How cool is that? Right? I take checks, Jonathan. Yeah. Hey, brother. Now the funny thing about think about that, though, think of how many people are starting out from totally from scratch at the age of 30 or 40 or 50 or whatever else.

And you know, what does what does that look like? And there's two pieces of that. One is that America, most of America stuff stuck on the hamster wheel, whether or not they realize it or not, right? They're sacrificing their future for expensive cable and cell phone bills and just, you know, all this nonsense.

And you don't need to do you know, everything right. But if you can just get just a few life hacks under your belt, just make you know, make sure what the value proposition is what you what the trade off is. Just get a few of these principles really under your belt, you can just retire decades ahead of your peers, you know, and you'll have to do everything that we're doing.

But if you listen to it, and you like the content and something appeals to you, hey, here's a step by step process. This is what we did. We're not gurus, nothing special about us, nothing that you couldn't replicate. And we just want to walk you through it. And you know what, we're also crowdsourcing it.

So we're setting it up so that, you know, our listeners can give us their ideas or thoughts. And then if they package it well, and they provide something that's, you know, a great idea or a concept or something that should be discussed, we'll go find the thought leaders, and we'll bring them on and then we'll do a roundtable and we'll discuss that concept.

So you know, really opening this up and getting America involved in this. That's great. That's awesome. You so Jonathan, you're working as a pharmacist now you got out of pharmacy school three years ago. Yeah, 2013. Okay. And married? Yes. Yeah, kid on the way. Okay. And you had two young kids.

Two young daughters. Yeah. So tell me, because oftentimes, oftentimes, our wives and children are going to influence and many times it seems like there's an over domination of kind of young single people who are saying, hey, we're going to be financially independent. And there's not a huge representation of people with with young children.

Maybe that's too aggressive a statement. But what do your wives think about this plan? Yeah, that's, that's a great question. I think my wife has always been on board. So she has probably always been more frugal than I am, actually, which is just a wonderful blessing. Yes. So quick poll.

Yeah. Jonathan, is your wife more frugal? Yeah, it's amazing. If isn't that just the biggest blessing in the world? It's incredible. I'm like the total. I think there's a life hack that there's something there that people should be considering, you know, when you're going to go find someone to marry, and I'm not saying this needs to be the only qualification, but if it happens to be, if you find someone that's more frugal than you, there's a strong chance that you're going to end up in a good place.

And we've heard that at Cam Mustache, right? When we went around the table, there were three instances, I think, where the wife was the one who, you know, dragged the husband in kicking and screaming. And now they're here at Cam Mustache and are on the path to five. So yeah, it's pretty cool.

My wife doesn't want me to keep up with the Joneses. She wants me to keep my wallet in my pocket. It's incredible, right? My wife doesn't want me to keep up with the Joneses. She just wants me to be there beside her. Right, right. Yeah. So I interrupted you.

No, no, no. Your wife is always on board. Yeah, she's been on board. We're from Long Island, New York, originally, and that's a very high cost of living place. Sure, absolutely. So, you know, both CPAs, we had, you know, decent jobs. But we just looked at each other pretty much maybe two months after we got married in '05 and just said, "We cannot make the life we want to make here on Long Island.

It's just impossible." So, I mean, we literally picked up and moved. And you know, moved down to Richmond, Virginia, where I coincidentally went to college. So we had some support system, but left all of our family, all of our friends, and made that move. And I mean, that was the first major step on the path to FI for sure.

Awesome. Jonathan, you? You know, going back to my story of kind of being this hamster wheel, like I'm the American success story, which is the weird thing, right? Like I am the guy— Because you probably don't feel like it. Yeah, no, that's the thing. After 158K and that. Right.

No, let's talk about that. So, you know, when you are a student or when you're in your teens, your parents' number one goal is to make sure that you get a good job, right? That's what we push. We want to make sure you go to college so that you get a good job.

It's a universal concern for parents for their children. And you know, I did it. I did exactly what America tells you is the best possible path, right? So I got into a medical profession, and then I got out and I got a job. But along with that comes the six-figure burden of debt.

So I'm out now. I'm 28 years old. But now I have the six figures of debt. I have a six-figure income, so that's fine. It's a great—it's a good thing, right? I mean, I have a six-figure income. I can easily pay it down. And I do, and I pay it down.

And now I'm 32. And I'd say that my plan basically worked. That was the best you could hope for if you're going from not having school paid for. But now I'm 32 years old, and I'm essentially starting from scratch. And you've got to ask yourself, was that the most efficient path to get there?

Now, discounting the fact that a lot of people—and if you're going into medicine or pharmacy or any field because you're passionate about that and you care about people, and I'm not saying I don't, but specifically if you— You hate people. I hate people, yeah. Just admit it. I can't do it, man.

I can't do it. I love people. But if you're going into that because you just truly want to help people, then do it. Follow your passion if that's your passion. But let's just say you're going into a medical profession because you want to make six figures, and that's how you make six figures.

The way I did it, I'm just going to be honest, it's an incredibly inefficient way to do it. There are so many easier ways that you can get to financial independence or six-figure income even without going through essentially what I did, which was a 14-year process in terms of my brain and what I'm thinking and where I'm aligning my goals.

What if you spent that 14 years learning new skills, and you did it with the confidence that this is what the stepwise process looks like to get there, not I'm going off into the great beyond and who knows what's going to happen, but you just had a role model.

I think it's the biggest thing. People don't always have a role model to show them what a step-by-step process to get to financial independence looks like. Yeah, and people don't believe that they can get wealthy on a middle-class income. They just don't. Because like Jonathan said, they're not seeing it in their real lives.

But if they can see that—Jonathan can do it. Even starting out, 168K in debt, if they can see that I can do it and my wife and I can do it on regular, albeit CPA incomes, but just kind of middle manager positions. Hold on. I'm going to pick on you about that.

Not that you wouldn't agree with me, but I get so tired of people discounting their high income. The reason is that's one of the components that's important. Yes, you can get wealthy on $40,000 a year. If you save $5,000 a year and you do it for 50 years, it's possible.

But the path to wealth does involve good income. It certainly helps. The path to wealth does involve CPA. The path to wealth can involve pharmacists. And we've got to be careful in this space about not discounting that and not trying to kind of sell something that, yes, you can do it on $20,000.

Well, maybe you can do it on $20,000 a year. We'll be optimists. But it's a lot easier on $200,000 a year than on $20,000. Well, you're not wrong. I think what you're getting at is essentially what I said, and that is that there are easier ways to get a six-figure income than to give up 14 years of your life studying one particular topic.

Amen. I agree. What if you were trained or training yourself, or in some cases, training your child? There's this first wave. We're like first-generation FIRE, right? This concept. Dave Ramsey introduced this in the '90s, but it was more getting out of debt and then living debt-free. So the FIRE, financial independence, early retirement, or retire early, is more of something that's hitting now.

It's kind of peaking right now. At some point, you're going to be looking at this not from the perspective of what you want to do for yourself, Joshua, but you're going to be looking at it on how can I steer my kids? How can I model this for them?

How can I give them the tips that they need to succeed? It's still the same audience, but it's a different focus. You're thinking, "I need to model this for my kids and show them all these different opportunities." I think if you were being intellectually honest, you would say, "Sure, maybe if they want to be a doctor or if they want to be a pharmacist, of course, I'm going to encourage them in their passions." But you might also be able to give them a little bit broader perspective because you don't have to do that to earn a high income.

If you start them early down this path, there's some really cool opportunities for them that just I didn't even know were available to me in my early teens. I have the same, shall we say, regret, resentment, frustration, something like that, that sounds like you do. Because when I was younger, when I was graduating high school type of thing, if I had known then what I know now, I would do things differently.

I have known then what I know now. That's exactly how I feel. I look at it and I say, "College is easy to pick on." I went to college because I'm the kind of person who goes to college. We have more letters after your name than anybody I know, right?

Right. But that's because I'm the kind of person who does stuff. At least the letters after my name were me improving my career and taking advantage of "tuition wasn't free, it was part of my compensation package." I figure if someone wants to give you tuition and I'm academically competent and it's not difficult for me to pass exams.

I went to college because I'm the kind of person who went to college. Here's what I don't know how to do but I want to do. How do we take the kind of person who is the kind of person who goes to college and present them with some of these alternative paths?

College can be part of it, but when I think back and I think about the person who at, say, 18 years old goes and spends a year or two or six months working in various professions, six months working as a carpenter, six months working as a plumber, six months working as an electrician helper, etc.

and spends their nights on YouTube or getting some books on trade school and then takes the money that they've earned and saves and then goes and invests that time in building their own house. And they come out the other side by building a house slowly and doing themselves from a young age they come out and have a debt-free house that they built themselves.

It's totally possible. That's just not the path that's often recommended. And we often talk about business. One thing that we have to be careful of, of discounting professions. Tom Stanley in one of his books, he talked about why the Millionaire Next Door, which was primarily composed of entrepreneur, why does that millionaire always go and recommend that their children become pharmacists or doctors or lawyers or some stable profession?

Because the entrepreneur knows everything that can go wrong. They know how risky it is and they know that, "Hey, listen, if you do this, it's a more guaranteed thing." But I look at it and say, "Okay, yes, it's risky, but what if we change it on its head?" Going to school for 14 years to go into a career that you may or may not love on the backside is also risky.

So I'm with you. That's a long-winded way of saying amen. Yeah, preach it. No, no. We got to keep working on figuring out how to approach these things in a more intelligent way. And I'm sure there is a game plan in there that can be written out. It's going to be different for everybody.

It is an individual choice. It's what do you love, what do you not love. It's designing a lifestyle that suits your passions. But America is very good at telling you what you have to do. And it's so hard at that age. There's fear. Yeah, it's very hard to home in and be willing to go your own way.

Yeah, but do something differently. Because the whole culture praises conformance, conformity. And at that age, it's a rare young man or woman in their middle teen to late teen years who can stand up and say, "No, I'm going to go against it." Most college students, I'm convinced, most college students choose the college they go to because that's the one their friends are going to.

Yeah, you're not wrong. So, Brad, let's talk travel hacking for a minute. So I haven't, you know what, I should probably, we should do a standalone episode at some point in the future because I haven't really covered much with travel hacking. But what is it and how do people, where do people go other than obviously your website?

But like, how do you get started with this world? Yeah, it's a great question. So travel hacking, as I kind of alluded to before, it's opening up very targeted credit cards that offer these massive signup bonuses, which you then parlay into free travel. Now obvious caveat is this is credit card related.

So please, anyone listening to this, do not get into it if you have any issue with credit cards whatsoever. If you do not pay it off on time and in full, or if you spend more than you otherwise would. Right? So, you know, the please just stop listening essentially now.

Which means now, of course, that they are going to be listening. Even, whoa, what do you not want me to hear? Tell me the secret. Here's all the juicy stuff. So you know, it's basically taking your smart financial habits and instead of getting, you know, what do you get, Joshua, on your, on your, you know, cashback rewards card, one, 2% if you're lucky, right?

You know, and I have found that in with these new cards that I open, I get somewhere between 15 to 30%, essentially a rebate on every dollar that we spend in life. Okay? Because we're funneling all of our expenses through on our credit cards. We're getting these signup bonuses and then just moving card to card.

Okay? So we're continually opening new cards and then just racking up these bonuses. I mean, at last count, I've earned 2.5 million miles and points, which I estimate is worth somewhere, you know, at a two cent per point valuation is worth $50,000. Wow. So, and, and just to add onto that, that is a post tax.

So that's, you know, they don't pay any taxes, applications whatsoever. So the great bending beauties of mileage. Yeah, exactly. So right. So it's parlaying these, you know, when you stack these bonuses together, you can actually put real significant trips together. I mean, just this past summer, uh, you know, I took my wife and two daughters, we went to the San Francisco Bay area.

We flew four round trips for free on Southwest. We stayed in this really nice Hyatt hotel for 10 nights, completely free. So I mean, I think the entire trip cost us $44 and 80 cents for the, you know, unavoidable taxes and fees on the award flight. So you know, that's pretty fantastic.

Absolutely. So obviously we're not prepared here to do a good kind of like intro or primer, but I do want to ask one question. Have you calculated the time involved and what the actual payoff is in terms of the time that you put into this? Yeah. Great question. So just like anything in life, it's what you want to put into it.

So I, so with my website, which we mentioned before is travel miles one Oh one. It's similar to Jonathan and my, our project here with trees up high, which is different perspectives. Right. Okay. So not to dive too deep into the answer here, but my business partner in that Alexi, he's a cardiologist.

He has a ton of spending and he also does this other wacky stuff called manufactured spending. You know, he spends a lot of time. I spend essentially zero time. Okay. I take the laid back, no frills approach. We open one card, we put all of our normal spending there.

So no time whatsoever. So maybe we're at 10 minutes to open a credit card. Right. So 10 minutes we, you know, just have to loosely track our spending and because you have to hit these spending requirements. So you know, you have to be organized somewhat. Okay. Card calls for six grand.

You'd have to know when you have to hit six grand. Once you've hit six grand, you put the card down, you open it and you open a new card at that point. So, you know, honestly it takes very minimal time to actually rack up the points. Then you know, of course redeeming takes a little more time.

You know, you have to plan where you want to travel. You have to see if there's availability. It's not terribly difficult and especially if you can be flexible. That's kind of my buzzword is flexibility. You know, you can't kind of shoehorn your regular travel schedule into travel rewards. You just can't because you know, there are limitations.

That's why it helps to be financially independent. That's exactly right. That's another word that we use. That's exactly right. I just bought a ticket and I can't remember where it was to, but I just was stunned at how I'm always often stunned at how cheap you can get flights if you don't have to be somewhere on a certain day.

And that's one of the benefits of having a mobile business, a location independent, financial independent, et cetera. It's like everything is built to take as much money away from people who work as possible and people who don't work for a living can get everything for free. So true. And that certainly extends to travel hacking for sure.

Well, awesome guys. So the website and the podcast is ChooseFI. ChooseFI.com. It's primarily a podcast or both? It's a companion. We use the articles to create content for the podcast. We use the podcast to drive people to the articles so that you have, you listen, you see what's interest you, then you know where to grab on with the articles.

And so it kind of feeds off each other. They're really intended to be a companion podcast to the blog. And I think they build off each other in a really synergistic way. Awesome. I'm glad to hear people taking this concept of financial media and adding twists to it that can be more relevant, more interesting as we can continue to expand.

So ChooseFI.com, other website, travel point website? TravelMiles101. Anything else you want to plug? I got nothing, man. I'm just excited to be here with you. Thanks for sharing your time with us. We're big fans. Thanks for coming on, guys. Are you ready to make your next pro basketball, football, hockey, concert, or live event unforgettable?

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