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That's FijiAirways.com. From here to happy. Flying direct with Fiji Airways. Today on Radical Personal Finance, we talk about car leasing. Some people think that leasing a car is a very expensive way to operate a vehicle. Some people think that leasing a car is a very inexpensive way to operate a vehicle.

And today I explain to you why they're both right. And also, who is leasing the best for? And then perhaps most importantly, if you're in a lease and you're trying to get out of the lease, how do you do that in an intelligent way? What are your options? Welcome to Radical Personal Finance, the show dedicated to providing you with the knowledge, skills, background, education, and daily encouragement that you need to live a rich and meaningful life now while working on your plan for financial freedom in 10 years or less.

My name is Joshua Sheets and I'm your host. This will be a fun one. I'm going to explain to you car leasing in a very factual and straightforward way. And I think after this show, you'll be able to understand which decision would be right for you. If you want to get personal finance people hot under the collar, just bring up the subject of car leasing and start arguing about it.

It seems like it's one of those things that's an elementary doctrine in the world of personal finance that people feel very strongly about. But today I haven't really talked much about it on the show. And so it's time to tackle the subject with a clear and straightforward explanation of it.

And then again, as I said, all those options. Before we do that, I want to mention one thing and then also thank many of you for something very important. Sponsor of the day today, number one, is Joshua Sheets, your host, indeed me. And specifically what I want to make you aware of is the fact that – are you aware that if you'd like to do a phone consulting call with me, that I offer that service?

I guess I'm not very good at advertising that because I get emails from time to time, people saying, "Joshua, I didn't realize you were doing that." So stay right up front. If you would like to talk to me privately, personally about your specific situation, you can book a phone call with me.

The way that works is you go to RadicalPersonalFinance.com/phonecall. That will forward you through to a website that I use to manage those transactions. It's a website called Clarity. You'll book a call with me. We'll go back and forth and schedule it. And the way the actual transaction will work, it's super simple.

On the site, you'll be able to book time with me. You can select that call. You'll put in your credit card information and you'll guess how long that you – you'll guess how long you're going to spend speaking to me. Let's say that you're going to speak to me at 30 minutes.

My current billable rate is $300 an hour. So if you do 30 minutes, your card will be charged for $150. Then you'll be provided at the time of the call with a custom conference line. We both get a custom conference line. Once we dial into the call, the computer starts counting the minutes.

If our call is shorter than the 30 minutes that you guessed it would take, you'll wind up with a refund. If it's longer, you'll be charged more. So it's a really great, really simple system. The technology has worked flawlessly for me. But that's – I've done dozens and dozens of these calls.

Go by RadicalPersonalFinance.com/phonecall. Check out the reviews. Many, many people have been very satisfied. We've talked about all kinds of issues in a consulting basis. We've talked about leasing versus buying. We've talked about what type of car to buy. I've had 100 percent satisfaction thus far. We've come up with some really good solutions for people in a private format.

So if you'd like to talk to me about your personal situation, book a phone call with me at RadicalPersonalFinance.com/phonecall. Secondly today, I want to thank those of you who are supporting the show as patrons. About 300, just under 300 of you support the show as patrons and there have been a few more over the weekend.

I just want to say thank you for that. That is hugely important. The patron program is a program that allows you to simply say, "Joshua, I appreciate what you're doing. I want to send you some money. I believe that a worker is worthy of his wages and I also believe that a worker should always work before receiving his wages." And so that's basically the way that I approach the show here.

I try to provide this for you. I try to give you as much information as I'm able to do it. I do it to the very best of my ability to give you useful information and I do it all for free. It shows up for you as free and the podcast, the free format, is my primary focus.

Now if you value that and you'd like to say, "Hey, let's voluntarily engage in a transaction together," you can take some percentage of what I've saved you or what I've helped you and send it to me as a patron. You could do as little as a buck a month, five bucks a month, ten bucks a month.

Some people do 20, 30, 50, any number that you choose. You can do that at RadicalPersonalFinance.com/patron. Thank you very much for your patronage. Now leasing. I personally am of the opinion that there's nothing inherently wrong with leasing. I get really frustrated when people use personal finance advice and they make what is subjectively true objectively true.

I get annoyed when people try to say, "Well, this is what you always do," when it's something that is clearly relative to the person. I'm convinced there are many things in life that are absolutely objectively true. Truth is not relative. But most personal finance decisions are not absolutely objectively true.

That's why I steer away from things like never lease a car or always lease a car. Rather, I look at it and say, "Let's dig it out a little bit and let's talk about why." Now with regard to car leasing, there's a paradox. The paradox is this. Leasing a car is the most expensive way to operate a vehicle.

Leasing a car is the cheapest way to operate a vehicle. Both of those things are true depending on your perspective. Let me expand. If you are going to drive a car and own a car and you're going to continually drive and own a car over a very long period of time, leasing a car and swapping out your leased car every three years or whenever your lease comes up will be the most expensive way for you to operate a vehicle.

However, if you're comparing going and buying a new car versus going and leasing a new car, your monthly payment for the lease will be substantially less than your monthly payment to purchase the car. These are both true for exactly the same reason. When people are looking at leasing, it's important to understand are they trying to operate a vehicle at the lowest cost over their lifetime or are they trying to operate a vehicle at the lowest monthly cost for a temporary period of time?

Now obviously, in general, to build wealth, you should be concerned with lifetime costs. So therefore, generally, I would advise against leasing. But there are times and situations in which somebody has to be concerned with monthly cost and in these cases, leasing might be an ideal solution. I want to explain to you two basic concepts here about leasing.

First, I want to talk about depreciation as a concept and then I want to explain to you how leasing actually works under the terms of the contract. Then we'll talk about the differences. Depreciation is a word that I use a lot here on Radical Personal Finance. All it means is the steady loss of value over time.

In the car world, this is simple to see. If I put a brand new car next to a car that's three years old and I ask you to pay the same price for both of them, you'd be a fool if you took the car that was three years old.

Same car, same price, you'd choose the new one for its inherent characteristics. Those characteristics may be things like, "Hey, it's mechanically sound because it's brand new." It may be things like, "It smells good," or, "It's shiny." It doesn't matter. The point is you'd always take the new one. If I put those cars on an open market, which is what we have in a car marketplace, you're going to pay less for the one that's been used.

Many people neglect to look at the severity of depreciation on cars. It's really substantial. We often talk about 15% a year, but it's important that you recognize that 15% a year is not constant. It depends on the car. Some cars depreciate more quickly. Some cars depreciate more slowly. I pulled up here in preparation for this show just some data, and I found this neat infographic from Edmunds that I'll link to in the blog post for today's show at RadicalPersonalFinance.com or in the notes page right up there on your mobile phone, which is how most of you are listening to me.

On this Edmunds page, it says that during the first five years, a car depreciates by 15% to 25% each year. Let's talk about what that actually means in numbers. In this infographic, Edmunds is from 2010. Edmunds uses the idea of a brand new Nissan 370Z. The sticker price on that car that you would actually pay at the dealership, the true market value under their calculations, their data, was $29,873.

Let's call that $30,000 among friends who are trying to track numbers while they drive down the road. $30,000 car. That is the actual true market value that you would pay for that brand new Nissan 370Z. The first depreciation that you experience is the first minute that you drive it off the lot.

As soon as you buy the car and leave the car dealership, the car goes down in value immediately. In this case, the Edmunds data indicates that the car goes down in value by $2,500. $2,500 in the first minute after you drive it off the lot. You lose about 11% of the car's value the moment you drive it off the lot.

If you're ever buying a new car, enjoy that first minute because it's a very expensive minute in the new car. That means that your $30,000 car is now worth $27,000. Now that immediate decrease in value is just simply due to the fact that the car is no longer new and it's no longer going to come from the new car dealership under all the terms of the new car.

That's unavoidable. There's an immediate depreciation there. In the first year, you have the highest amount of depreciation. This is largely because the car is still so close to new that when somebody's considering buying a one-year-old car or a brand new car, they're probably going to be swayed over in the direction of the brand new car because the prices are going to be very similar.

But it's also due to the fact that in that first year, the car is worth the highest amount. It drops percentage-wise substantially. The Edmunds data indicates that at the end of one year of ownership, your car has depreciated in value by $5,600. So it's gone from being worth $30,000 to $24,000.

If you add up that in here, that's down $6,000. So at the end of one year, you've lost $6,000 of value. In the second year, you lose another $3,600 of value. If you own your $30,000 car for two years and you go and sell it, you can sell it for $20,000.

You've lost 10 grand in the first two years. And then it continues from there. In three years, in the third year, your car depreciates by $3,100. Now let me just read you these numbers here so you can understand how depreciation works. In the first year, you lose $5,600 of value.

In the second year, you lose $3,600 of value. In the third year, you lose $3,100 of value. In the fourth year, you lose $2,800 of value. And in the fifth year, you lose $2,500 of value. After five years, your car has gone from being worth $30,000, which is what you paid for it, to being worth $12,000.

You've lost 60% of the value in the first five years. And this is normal no matter what kind of car. Some cars depreciate a little bit less. Some cars depreciate a lot more. But this is a good average to look at. That's a very important concept for you to grasp.

It's important to recognize that as you drive the car, as this car sits there, in addition to all of its normal costs, it's going down in value. Now let's bring this back to leasing. How does leasing fundamentally work? Well, let's pretend that you were going to lease a car from me.

The first thing that I have to do is go and buy the $30,000 car. So I go and take my $30,000 and I bring it to you. Excuse me, I go and take my $30,000 and I buy the car. Now you say, "Joshua, I want to rent the car from you for..." Let's stick with my math because I just did this five years.

I want to rent the car from you for five years. Pretend you were going to do a five-year lease. Most leases are shorter in term than five years, but for the sake of my illustration, let's stick with five years. Joshua, I'm going to rent the car from you for five years.

Well, in this context, I know that at the end of five years, the car is going to be worth $12,000. So in order to figure out how much to charge you, I know that I'm going to buy the car for 30 and I'm going to sell it in five years for 12, so I know I need to get $18,000 from you at least.

So I could take $18,000, divide that by 60 months and I could charge you $300 a month. I also, however, need to recognize the fact that I'm losing the use of my money and I'm a businessman, so I need to make sure that I'm getting a return on my money.

So I take an interest rate. I decide how much I'm going to charge for this, for the loss of the use of my money, and I add that to the $300. Those two things put together form the basis of our lease contract. The technical term would be the principle and the interest on the depreciation.

That's the technical term for the actual transaction. But then I've also got to recognize the fact that I'm out the additional $12,000, so then you had on the interest and the residual value. How much interest am I going to earn from my $12,000? And then of course you would add in local sales tax and there's some additional costs as well, some fees such as an acquisition fee or a disposition fee at the end of the lease.

Now these things put together total the lease payment. The reason leases are cheaper than buying a car is you never actually pay for the full price of the car under a lease. You only pay for the cost of the depreciation. Thus if we were to do a five-year lease on this car or if you were to do a five-year purchase plan, you would be paying a higher price per month on the five-year purchase plan because each month you have to make up a little bit more to cover that residual value.

You're only getting charged $20,000 under the lease whereas you're going to pay the full $30,000 under the purchase plan. That's why leasing cars is cheaper on a monthly basis. The reason it's more expensive to lease a car though on the long term is that at the end of the lease you don't own anything.

You can't keep driving the car. Now back to the depreciation cost. The major problem with leasing is that you're always buying brand – you're always leasing brand new cars and you're paying for the depreciation when that payment is the highest, when that depreciation cost is the highest. For in the example here, on the first year, the car goes down in value by $5,600 in the first year.

That's a huge cost, $5,600 of depreciation in the first year. In the second year, it's $3,600. So all of your depreciation is front-loaded. When you're leasing a car, you're operating a vehicle under the most expensive terms. Every time you re-up your lease and go lease another one, you're constantly taking that depreciation at its most expensive place.

You never get to the bottom of the depreciation curve where you own the car but it only loses, say, $400 of value this year. This is a big deal, especially in our modern world when cars are generally manufactured with such high quality because not only are you using the depreciation at – you're paying for the depreciation when it's at its most expensive, you're also going – you never get anywhere near the useful life of a car.

If you lease a car, three-year lease, 12,000 miles a year, you're using the first most expensive 36,000 miles when a modern automobile can easily have an expected duty cycle of 200,000 miles without even trying. Maybe much longer if you want to keep it. So you're always operating in this very expensive place.

That's why it's generally such a bad move to operate a car using a lease. Now are there people for whom leasing is really great for? I think so. The very best person for whom leasing is great is somebody who has lots of money, wants to always be driving a new or practically new vehicle and never wants to deal with the hassle of buying and selling their own vehicle.

They just simply – the loss of value under the terms of their car lease is insignificant in their financial life. They can lose six grand in that first year or 16 grand depending on the car and it doesn't matter to them at all because they have so much money in other places.

I think leasing makes a lot of sense there. It works well. I also think leasing might make sense in some circumstances where it's important for the image of the person, let's say the image of their business, their image as a professional, to be able to drive a fancy enough car to fit in in their profession when they don't have enough money to actually be able to afford it.

The key is to recognize that this had better be a temporary situation. It's also important to recognize that most people who tell themselves that they need a nice car for their profession are fooling themselves. Image does matter. Presentation does matter. But the vast majority of people who tell themselves, "Oh, I need a nice car for my image," don't.

But there are a few people who do. Well, in that case, if you need the lowest monthly payment, okay. It can work. But hopefully it's temporary. There are a few other things. Hopefully you drive very small amounts. You need to drive less than 15,000 miles a year. There's possibly a small business arbitrage opportunity where if you're paying out of a business, perhaps you can consider the lease.

You can speak to your tax advisor for that. I don't want to get into the details of that at the moment. But that's who leasing is good for. But if you're somebody who's looking to actually get the most value for your money, somebody who's actually looking to build wealth, in order to do that, you've got to stop stupid outflows of money and hemorrhaging money on depreciation on new vehicles when there's no practical value to them as a good place to start.

Don't start hemorrhaging. Start by stopping the hemorrhaging. Hopefully I got that right. One of the simplest ways to lower the cost of transportation is to keep vehicles for a long time. And operating a car in this very high expensive bracket is a bad idea. It's a bad idea until you're rich.

Here's what's the worst thing about leasing. Because the lease payment, saying this was the worst thing was too strong. Here's another bad thing about leasing. Because the lease payment is less than the purchase payment, it's very easy to fool yourself into upgrading your choice of vehicle when you're standing there in the car dealership.

Yes, you can go and lease the Toyota Corolla for $130 a month. But you know what? If you move up to the Camry, it's only $155. If you move up to the 4Runner, it's only $280. I can afford $280. After all, the 4Runner is a lot better, and I might need four-wheel drive this winter.

And you can just go marching right up from there. Because the lease payment is smaller, you wind up in too much car, too expensive of a car, where it's simply unnecessary. If you're interested in being wealthy, if you're interested in making good financial decision, if you are not yet rich, don't lease cars.

Buy them. Now, in this case, if you're in that category, meaning you're interested in becoming wealthy, you want to make good financial decisions, and you're not yet rich, under this calculation, you shouldn't even be considering a new vehicle. You should be spending the absolute minimum to get the transportation that you need, and then funneling a maximum of your money into investments.

That is an unbreakable mathematical law. If you're losing $5,000 per year, because you're always leasing a car at its most expensive point of operation, but yet you're over here funding an investment account at $5,000 a year, you're spinning your wheels. You could dramatically improve the trajectory of your wealth building if you simply stop the $5,000 hemorrhage and increase the investments.

If you're not, most people aren't investing. If you can do both, double it up. Save 10 grand, you'll get financially free twice as fast. That's it. That's as simple as it gets with regard to leasing. Now, let's talk about how to get out of a lease. If you're stuck in a lease and you're trying to get out, you have very few options, and none of them are great.

The first thing to recognize is that you're stuck because you moved too fast, or you wound up in a situation, or your circumstances may have changed. I don't want to be too harsh. There could be reasons why you did this. But if you want to get out of a lease, it's very difficult.

There are a few basic options that you can do. Let's go from the worst to the best. The worst thing to do, I guess, is just to stop paying for it, in which case it'll be repossessed. Your lease will be repossessed. You'll be sued for the difference. Your credit will be affected deeply.

That's not a good plan. You could do what they call a voluntary repossession, which means drive it to the lot and leave it there. In that case, the same basically thing happens where you get marked with a repossession. One of the things that you want to do if you find yourself in this situation is you want to investigate the possibility of taking the car back.

The way that you do that is you call the leasing company and find out what the early return payoff amount is. You might be able to look and scratch around and find enough money to put with it in order to return the car. Sometimes you can maybe negotiate where they'll sell the vehicle and then you'll be able to put up the difference with it.

But basically, you're trying to figure out how much money you're going to owe to get out of this. If you return the car, they'll often allow you to do that if you roll the payments over into a new lease. This is a bad thing to do if you're trying to get out of a lease.

It's only in an emergency situation where you have a financing emergency that you would consider this. The reason it's bad because you're constantly rolling all those payments over and you're building up worse and worse, it's called negative equity, which means you owe way more than a vehicle is worth.

Sometimes you can return the vehicle if you read your contract. You can always return the vehicle and pay all the penalties, but you're going to wind up paying a big termination fee, an early termination fee, and you're going to pay out the remaining depreciation of the vehicle, which you no longer have the opportunity to use.

The leasing company turns around. They sell the car at auction and they'll reduce the money that you owe them based upon the money that they received at auction. That's a bad thing to do because the car is going to sell at auction lower than what you could get in the private market most likely.

It's almost always better to try to sell the car yourself. This is another good option, just to simply sell the car. You can always buy the vehicle that you're driving from the leasing company anytime you want. Again, that's called an early buyout. In your leasing contract, there's a buyout at the end of the lease term, but you can get the number for the early buyout.

Call the leasing company. Find out what the early buyout or the payoff amount is of the vehicle. Call the lease company directly. The lease company is the one that owns it, not a dealer. That's why I don't call the dealer. Just call the leasing company. That amount will include some fees.

It'll have an early termination fee. It's usually $200 to $500. It'll also include in it all of the remaining depreciation cost for the lease payments that you haven't made so far. Usually, the value of the car will be less than the early payoff amount. So perhaps the early payoff amount is $20,000, but your car is only worth $16,000.

So in that case, probably your best thing to do, you're going to have to figure out how to come up with a difference. If you paid a lot of money down on the car in the beginning or if this is a car that has a strong secondary market, perhaps the damage won't be so bad.

You won't know until you shop the market, find out what the secondary market, find out what you could sell it for in the used market, and find out what the payout amount is. Remember, in a lease, there's always going to be a down payment. And if there's a down payment, not always, often there's a down payment.

All that down payment does is it lowers the monthly payments. If you don't have the down payment, the monthly payments are higher. It's just a little accounting trick. So in terms of where you are right now, it will depend on how much of a down payment, what the actual value is of the car.

If you can sell the car in the secondary market and come up with enough money from the sale and/or from your pocket to pay off the early payoff amount, you can get out of the lease. That's going to be one of your best options to do. Big challenge here in the private market is generally where you're going to be able to get a higher amount.

You could also do the same thing, of course, trade it into a dealer. You could ask different dealers for trade-in amounts and you could use those figures as well, and that's good. At least you can go to just about any dealer and get a firm offer on a firm price, whereas in the secondary market, you're putting it on Craigslist, putting out ads, putting it on AutoTrader, et cetera.

You don't know until the actual sale is consummated. One of the problems with selling these leased cars in the secondary market would be the age of the vehicle, which might lead to a thin market. If you're selling a leased car private party, you're usually selling a leased car that is pretty new.

It's maybe a year old, two years old, three years old. Now, what's the demand for this type of vehicle? Most people that are shopping in the used market are probably shopping for vehicles that are a lower price point than one that's almost new. A couple of reasons. If you're going to go and spend, let's say you bought a car for $30,000, if you're going to spend $24,000 and get a car that someone else has had, or spend $30,000 for a brand new car, it's only a very small percentage of the population that's going to make that financially wise decision.

Most people are going to say, "Let me just go ahead and buy it new." Not a lot of people come up with cash payments for almost new cars. Most people need financing. Of course, any buyer could arrange their own financing. They could arrange their own financing with their bank, but most people don't do that.

Most people go and they get financing from the car dealership. The type of person that you'd like to sell the car to, there aren't many of them in that secondary market at that level. Craigslist is not crawling with people who are ready to plunk down $30,000 cash for a one or two year old car.

It's a real challenge. The people who do have the cash to buy the car from you on Craigslist are going to want a deal. That's why they're there. They're smart people. That's who you should be, is going and buying those cars at a discount and just offering cash to move quickly.

The resale market in the private market for this type of car that's a year, two years, three years old can be very thin, especially if you can't provide financing. Is it possible? It's possible, but the market is thin. It's a real challenge. That is a really good option. Sell the car and you got to get enough money from the sale of the car plus the money that you may have to put with it and buy the car out from the lease company.

That will get you out under the terms of the contract and you can be out from under the lease. Finally, there is another good option that has come out. This is called lease trading or lease transferring. There are three websites, at least three. I'm sure there are more too, but the three websites.

One is SwapALease. One is Leastrading.com and another is Leastrade.com. These websites exist to help people just simply swap leases. You get the SwapALease idea. These work pretty well from all of my research. I haven't engaged in one of these transactions personally, but I have looked at them. If you're looking to pick up a lease of a car or if you're looking to get out from underneath your own lease, you should really consider this.

If I were stuck in that position where I said earlier, one of the places of leasing a car, if I were in a position where I just wanted to drive a fancy car, trade it out for a few years, I'd just go to the dealership and do it there.

But if I were in that position where I had a cash flow problem and I'm trying to figure out how can I lease a car as cheaply as possible in order to give the transportation that I need, I would go to SwapALease and I would try to get it from there.

Because here, I may be able to get into somebody else's lease at a cheaper price and still diminish the amount of money that I have to come out of pocket with. One of the big benefits of doing something on, again, a lease swapping or lease trading side, is that the buyer of the lease doesn't have to pay a lot of the upfront expenses that you, if you're selling your lease, that you had to pay.

They don't have to pay the down payment. That can be a big benefit. So if you're looking to buy a lease, get into one, this can work really well. Now you, of course, need to check your contract to see if this is permitted. Most leasing companies will allow you to transfer the lease to another person.

You have to be careful because in many cases or most cases, you're still going to be on the contract and liable if the other person stops making payments and then you're going to have to pay a transfer fee to transfer the lease. But this is a really good market that has emerged to solve the problem.

There are other interesting things about this market where buyers and sellers of leases are exploiting the terms of the contract in order to get the lease gone or to get a lease. So for example, if you really want to get out of the lease, depending on the amount of miles remaining that you have and the money that you actually put down, you might find yourself in a position where you want to offer an incentive and you want to offer an incentive where you'll be able to pay the person, where they'll be able to get the lease for less than you have to pay for it so that you can get rid of it.

Let's say that you owe $500 a month on the lease and you just can't make that. Well, somebody might be willing to come up and you can put an incentive on there of $100 a month and somebody will pick that lease up for 400 bucks. It's not perfect for you.

Of course, you'd like to get out of it completely, but it might solve the financial problem. It gets you out from underneath the $500 payment. You can make the $100 payment, but it gets you out from underneath the $500 payment. So this can be something that you should really investigate.

Forgive me, I made a mistake. I misread my notes. The two websites that I've looked at, I think there are more too, but I think these are two of the big ones, are leasetrader.com and swapalease.com. So those are the two that you want to check out, leasetrader.com and swapalease.com.

Those are the basic options for getting out of the lease. You always have to weigh, is this the best thing to do or is this not the best thing to do? There's going to be a cost involved anyway and you have to run the actual numbers of your circumstance as always.

Read your contract, call the dealer, get the information and then sit down and do some calculations and see if some of these options. If you can sell the car in the secondary market, come up with the cash. If you have the cash and you come up with it, that can work out well.

If you don't have the cash, you'll end up trading the lease out or you might just wind up in this position where you've got to pay it out. But while you're paying it out, as you get to the end of the lease term, make sure that you're saving the money in order to be able to buy your next car, hopefully for cash.

That way you don't have to deal with this challenge of payments. In the meantime, you can help educate other people so they don't get stuck in car leases unless they're getting rich and they just want to swap their cars out all the time. That's it for the show. I hope this has been helpful to you.

It's a hot topic in the world of personal finance. Hope these advice is useful. It's really simple concepts. It often frustrates me when I hear people say it is to say you've got to take it on some sort of blind faith where it's don't lease vehicles instead of explaining how it actually works.

So hopefully now that I've explained how it actually works that you find that a little bit useful and more helpful. That's it for today's show. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you again to those of you who support the show as patrons, radicalpersonalfinance.com/patron. If you'd like to book a phone call with me, radicalpersonalfinance.com/phonecall.

And finally, don't forget about my quick six question demographic survey, radicalpersonalfinance.com/survey. That's super helpful. Working to sell more advertising to other companies. And so as I work on that, I need some good demographic data. radicalpersonalfinance.com/survey. You can pull that up at six questions. Takes about 20 seconds. You can put your email in.

There's a spot for your email. You can put it in or you can not put it in. I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. I'm not doing anything with the list. It's just there in the survey software. So radicalpersonalfinance.com/survey and I'll be back with you tomorrow. Hey, Cricut customers, Max with Ads is included with your Cricut $60 unlimited plan at no additional cost.

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