I enjoy reading books and I find them to be, frankly, one of my better investments. I don't know how you get more bang for the buck than to plunk down 10 or 15 or 20 bucks for a good finance book that gives you potentially hundreds of dollars or thousands or even millions of dollars worth of ideas.

And I do this thing where I like to ask people about what their favorite finance books are. And you do this long enough and you start to get a sense of the ones that really matter. I can list 10 off the top of my head. But there's one book that seems to come up more than ever, more than all the rest.

Seems to have sparked more people's financial journey than anything else. That book is a book 20 years old called "Rich Dad, Poor Dad." And today we've got the author of "Rich Dad, Poor Dad," as well as all the dozens of follow-on books, Mr. Robert Kiyosaki here on Radical Personal Finance.

Welcome to the Radical Personal Finance podcast. My name is Joshua Sheets and I'm your host. Thank you for being with me today. Man, I'm excited about today's interview. I think you're going to really enjoy it. It's interesting to talk to a man who has shaped the personal finance industry and since this is the show where we work hard to figure out how to live a rich life now and how to build a plan for financial freedom in 10 years or less, why not learn those things from the guy who shaped the industry?

I really do mean it. If you start to profile people and ask them what book started you off, I don't know how he did it. But "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" was probably one of the most motivational books that I've ever heard of. In the personal finance industry, it seems like its effects can be felt everywhere.

And so many people say, "Man, I read 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad' and it changed everything." And Robert Kiyosaki, he's been just pumping out best-selling books since then and building a massive empire of a business. He's also not a stranger to controversy because what's interesting is "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" is one of the more controversial books on personal finance.

Now, in today's show, I think you're going to enjoy it because we're just going to talk with Robert as a man, as an author, as a man, and get his insights on personal finance, the industry, and on what and how his advice has changed over the years and what's currently true and what's not been true.

I think you're really going to enjoy this. It was a pleasure to sit down with him virtually over Skype. It was a pleasure to talk to him and to hear what he's been able to accomplish. And in line with the value of the show, living rich today and building a plan for financial freedom in 10 years or less, it's hard to get better than Robert Kiyosaki.

Before I play the interview for you, two sponsors for today's show. Number one is Paladin Registry. Paladin Registry was my response to coming up with an answer for a question that many of you have asked me, which is, "Joshua, how do I find a great financial advisor?" And I said, "Well, I'm not sure.

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So hey, if all your stock trades don't work out, at least you get an extra $100. Robert Kiyosaki, welcome to Radical Personal Finance. Thank you, Joshua. Thank you. Been looking forward to talking to you. It's hard for me to think of anybody who has had more of an impact on the personal finance industry than you and your Rich Dad Empire.

To the best of my knowledge, is Rich Dad Poor Dad still the best-selling personal finance book of all time? That was from Publishers Weekly. But it was just recently. Publishers Weekly had it up there again. That's awesome. Well, congratulations on that. 20 years. Do you know that? 20 years.

I'm probably, in some ways, almost the perfect consumer of your content because 20 years ago, that's when I was just starting to pay attention to personal finance. When I was a young teenager, I'd spend my time hanging out in the bookstore reading personal finance books, and there were always a number of purple book covers quite prominently displayed.

That's how I was working on books. I'd like to ask you a couple of questions. I like the title of your show, "Radical Personal Finance," because that's kind of my category, is I'm radical. I really don't like what most financial planners tell people. Well, this ought to be a fun interview.

As a former professional financial planner, I've seen both sides of the industry. I was widely schooled in the personal finance side and also then moved over to the professional side. So I've seen both sides and live to tell about it. So I'd like to begin with a question primarily about your message.

You're most well-known for "Rich Dad, Poor Dad." And as you mentioned, we're talking 20 years of publishing history. If you were to distill the essence of your message, the lessons that you want to teach to your listeners, your readers, your audience, what would you say is the distillation of your primary message as it relates to personal finance?

That's a great question. It goes to chapter one, lesson one, and most people miss it. You know, they say, "Read 'Rich Dad, Poor Dad,'" but they don't know what lesson one, chapter one is. And lesson one, chapter one is, "The rich don't work for money." And that goes right over their head because from birth, you know, we're programmed to work for that paycheck and to save money and to invest money.

And that one statement, "The rich don't work for money," is not between their left ear and their right ear. So it doesn't comprehend. I may as well speak in Japanese or Swahili, you know what I mean? They don't understand what I'm talking about. And because they don't understand that statement, "The rich don't work for money," most people then become enslaved to money, working for money, saving money, and investing their money.

It's that one statement, "The rich don't work for money," is a radical statement. Do you think of that as a place to start, as a cause? Meaning that if you start with that statement, "Okay, the rich don't work for money," and if obviously I have a goal of being rich, most people who are studying personal finance share that goal, is that a good place to start as a financial plan or is that the outcome that you're ultimately working toward?

Well, Joshua, I mean, that's why I'm laughing at your radical personal finance because we're in the same category. In other words, there's, you know, lesson number one, really, for all of us is choose your teachers wisely. So a rich dad, poor dad is about two different teachers. My poor dad, who was the head of education for Hawaii, PhD, you know, and then my rich dad, who was an entrepreneur, and they both say different things.

Now, in our world of personal finance today, the leaders are, of course, Suze Orman. You know, she's number one. And then that's, then next is Dave Ramsey, and then there's you and I on the outside. But we're radical. And the reason Suze Orman is number one is she talks to poor people.

And I'm not saying they're poor because they don't earn money. I'm saying they're poor because they have poor spending habits. As a financial planner, you'll see that most people make money, they just mismanage their money. That's why they're poor. So that's why she'll say, you know, I want you puppy, I want you boat.

She goes, denied. You know, and we all need a Suze Orman in our lives to say denied. And Dave Ramsey, his byline is live debt free. Now, that's a great idea if you're middle class, but you're going to get crushed that way. And then there's guys like me who are basically saying I use debt and I don't pay taxes.

And they go nuts. You go, what are you talking about? Because like I said, it doesn't fit between their left ear and their right ear, but it all goes back to lesson one, the rich don't work for money. And the reason the rich don't work for money is after 1971, when Nixon took us off the gold standard, the US dollar became a currency.

It's no longer money. And they can print as much as they like. And as you know, today, the whole world is printing money. So why would you work for it? It doesn't make sense to me. So that's why it is radical. The Suze Orman for the poor, Dave Ramsey for the middle class and me for the rich.

That's the difference. That's why the rich teach our kids about money. The poor and middle class do not. I don't work for money. I acquire assets. I build assets. I have businesses. I have real estate. I have oil wealth. But I don't want a job. When you're beginning, if you were given, and I agree with you about the segmentation of financial advice.

Yeah, it's a broad category. And as a professional financial advisor, that's one of the things that I would argue most strongly for is that good financial advice is always specific. We who are, you and I in a media space, we always face the difficulty of giving generalized advice and then trying to teach someone that you've got to figure out how to apply this within the context of your own specific situation.

And that's where-- Amen. That really is amen right there. You can't do what we do if you need Suze Orman. If you can't control your spending habits, let's say you make $100,000 a year, but you're spending $200,000 a year. You need Suze Orman. You don't need us. Right, right, exactly.

And so we've got to find the person whose advice is suitable to us at a point in time. I'm going to use myself as a case study and just ask you to lay out what today in 2016 is going to look like. If I, as a young man, just for your knowledge, I've got a young family.

I'm in an excellent financial position. I live a rich life. I'm not yet a millionaire. But I've got cash. I've got capital. I have assets. I've built a number of assets that are working well in my life. If I were looking at the investment opportunity landscape and also just considering the marketplace here in 2016, what are the types of opportunities that you would counsel someone like me to look for to build wealth?

Well, let's say it's spring Q1 of 2016. To me, the best opportunity is in gold and silver. And that's going to pass too, because if gold is under $1,500 an ounce, it's a good time. It passes $1,500, or let's say silver passes $20, it's no longer a good investment.

So as long as gold is under $15 and silver is under, let's say, $20, it's probably the safest thing, better than the stock market today, which is on a downward trend. And the governments are going broke. So they're probably going to print. And the only two political guys actually speaking about it are Donald Trump and who's the African American neurosurgeon?

Ben Carson. Ben Carson. They're the only guys talking about it. And I think it goes over most people's heads. Like, Ben Carson says, "Hey, look, our national debt's not $20 trillion. It's $250 trillion." And Trump says the same thing. But the average American doesn't even know what that means, because it doesn't fit between their left ear and their right ear.

So I didn't-- And they don't know what's going to come down the road. You can't keep running out that much debt. Right. I didn't expect that as an answer. I had intended to ask you about some of your perspectives on central banking a little bit later. But let's jump to it now.

Why would you feel so confident in saying that gold and silver are an opportunity? What's the research or what's the thought process behind that recommendation? Well, it goes back to everybody-- in an election, everybody's talking about Reagan. But Reagan had two criminals inside of his operation. You know, one was this guy, Caspar Weinberger, who was Secretary of Defense.

Another one was Alan Greenspan, you know, the Fed chairman. And those guys-- I mean, those guys ripped us off. They ripped us off big time. And then we have these incompetent guys like Bernanke and now Janet Yellen, who are economists. They're academics. And most academics are like poor debt.

And they're risk-averse. They're not very-- they're very smart in one area, but they're not smart in all areas. So what Janet Yellen-- I mean, she doesn't-- she has not a clue how the central bank called the US Fed rips us off or the ECB, the European Central Bank, or the Bank of Japan, or the Bank of China.

And the reason we have this huge gap between the rich and everybody else is because we have a currency crisis. We don't have a stock market crisis or a real estate crisis. We have a currency crisis. And as long as you can print money-- that's why Ben Carson, $250 trillion, is kind of my number also.

It's called the unaccounted financial-- it's called-- my brain's not-- Unfunded liabilities. Unfunded liabilities. We're broke. And the question is, how are we going to handle our brokenness? Are we going to print money, or are we going to cut it off? I think we're going to print. So that's why I bet on gold.

And I could be wrong, but I'd rather have gold right now than dollars or yen or pesos. Today. Today. Right, right, right. Tomorrow, if gold's at $2,000, I'm not buying anymore. Right. But if that were the case, wouldn't you rather have a productive asset as compared to a non-productive asset?

Or at least-- let's talk about my situation. So you're in a very different financial situation. You've made your fortune. Or at least you've made plenty of fortune. And so now you've got to think intensely about protecting that, which is a different scenario. You're at a different phase of life.

For somebody like me, wouldn't you think that gold or silver are generally less productive than some of the other business pursuits that I could participate in? They're definitely less productive. But right now, I'm waiting for the crash. I wrote a book. It came out-- it started in 1996, and it came out in 2002.

It said the biggest financial crash in history was coming in 2016. So looking at the long view, I think we're going to collapse in 2016 or 2017. And when that happens, you want to have gold or cash, because people will be in a short squeeze. And a short squeeze is when somebody has to sell anything that's somewhat liquid, like their Mercedes or their house or whatever.

They don't have to start getting out. And so I'm waiting for the crash. We're at an all-time high in the stock market. Are you kidding me? Why would you buy anything? So when that baby comes down, that's when you get rich. You get more rich when things crash. And that's what most people don't realize, is when afterwards crashes, the better time to start businesses and acquire and do those things.

I'm waiting for the crash. That's why I'm kind of biding my time. How would you define the word "crash"? Well, the same thing that happened in 2007. You know, if you go to my website, richdad.com, you have pull-up pictures, I mean, video of me with Wolf Blitzer on CNN, and I'm calling the crash of Lehman Brothers an old thing.

And I'm so far ahead of my time. So 2016, the same thing is going to happen. There's all the lakes going to come out. But this time, it's not going to be just a U.S. crash. It's going to be global, because China is in serious, serious trouble. So that's why you're going to see a crash of epic proportions in 2016 to 2017, outside 2018.

And that's when you'll get rich. So in some ways, in many ways, I agree with you. I'm a little bit uncomfortable with the word "crash." It goes a little-- it's a little more sensational than I'm-- It's called "collapse." It's called "collapse." That doesn't help. I'm uncomfortable with the word "crash" and the word "collapse." But I've also said many times on the show, my best guess is severe recession or depression.

No, no, no. Collapse. OK. We'll agree to disagree. Let me tell you why. Go ahead. If it scares the hell out of you, you may prepare for it. If you sugarcoat it, like what's called political correctness, you might say, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It won't be a problem." But by scaring the you-know-what out of yourself, you may start taking action.

And that's why I use severe words. I use severe language. Because hopefully, most people will be like deer in the headlights. They won't do anything. And other people like you will say, "Well, maybe he's right and he will do something." But if you sugarcoat it a little bit, mild recession and all this stuff, it may as well be Janet Yellen.

But here's my rebuttal to that. If you are too strong with your language and you are—and I understand, you wrote a book. You wrote the book Prophecy. I read it, I think, a couple years or so after it came out. And so, I don't necessarily expect you to agree with me.

But here is my counterpoint. If you're too strong with your language, what happens is people have a tendency to grab onto the emotion of what you're saying rather than the more careful, logical perspective. And my fear is that in the same way that those who are concerned about something like Y2K, and they ran out in a frenzy and they said, "We've got to stock up because Y2K happens." And they buy a pallet of freeze-dried food and a generator.

And then on January 2nd, they say, "Well, that was a waste." And then they get rid of all the food in the generator. I think a more realistic approach is to say, "Be prepared for disruptions in society." And Y2K is one possible scenario, so be ready, but don't go crazy about it.

And so, in the same way I would apply it to finance, I would say, "Be prepared for significant recessions, be prepared for stock market crashes, be prepared for long-term depressions, but don't bet the farm on it and make sure that you're prepared to take advantage of the business opportunities that come out of it." That way, if you and I are wrong about our timing or wrong about the Fed so far has certainly seemed to be able to fulfill their mission, and who knows, will they continue to be able to or not?

I don't know. But that way, at least you leave people thinking and more prepared for the normal fluctuations with severe occurrences in between. What say you? That sounds politically correct to me, but I think you're both bunch of... Look, all I'm saying is this, and as a financial planner, you know 90% of the people are not prepared.

Agreed. Okay, so they're already either complacent or they're terrified. I talk to my family all the time. They think I have my head up my butt, you know, because they have jobs. And you tell me people are losing their jobs today? You know, the big thing of the presidential debate was that Carrier just wiped out 2100 jobs in Indiana or something, and people are crying, gnashing their teeth.

What do you want to say to them? You know, I mean, if I'm telling you a crash is coming, it's coming. I promise you that, because in 2007, I made so much money. I borrowed $500 million in 2009. Half a billion dollars. That's how you get rich. I was ready for it.

What'd you do with the money? I bought real estate. You know, at 3%... I was floating at 5.5% interest. They did reduce it down to less than 3%. You know how much money I made on all that debt? I made... They're giving money away. So when all those real estate prices crashed, because they were at all-time highs, I went in and bought all the real estate I could buy.

How on earth do you buy $500 million of real estate? That's what I do. Well, what I mean, though, is the scale. I mean, it's one thing to go out and find a couple of single-family homes, but when you get into, I mean, those numbers, I mean, that's thousands of properties.

Were you deploying it in large commercial property or individual transactions? 10,000. 10,000 apartment houses. Okay. We operated at a mini rate. Our thing is just, look, Rich Dad Poor Dad, I started when I was 9 or 10 years old. You know, I bought my first property when I was 20-something.

And what increases is your knowledge and experience as you go along. So I didn't start off with 10,000. I started with one. Excuse me. And my knowledge increases, and I make my mistakes, and I screw up, and I correct. And then one day I had 100, and then the next time it was at 1,000.

And then from 1,000 to 1,500 didn't take so long. And then when I knew the market was crashing, that's when we moved in, right after the crash. So you should read my book. It's called Second Chance. You know, it just came out a year ago. And in there you'll see the charts and graphs.

I just read the charts and graphs. It's clear as day when the markets are going to crash. I have in Second Chance a chart of the Dow for 120 years. You will see that we've had three major crashes since 2000. We've had two real estate-- no, two stock market crashes.

And we've had one real estate crash in the first from 2000 to 2010. And I call 2016. There's going to be a currency collapse. That's a very severe word. Now, if it doesn't happen, fine. I'm still going to do the same thing. I'm still going to use debt to buy real estate.

Nothing changes. You know, I mean, I just-- I'm aware of the ups and downs of markets. And that's what Second Chance-- you just get the book, read it. I use debt. I don't save money. I don't have stocks. And I don't pay tax. That's my personal finance, legally. So I'm not saying you should do it.

I'm just telling you. That's why I like the title, Radical Personal Finance. It's precisely radical. - Trust me, if you listen to the show, we-- it's funny, some of the audience is longtime listeners. They're chuckling at you saying that I'm politically correct. I consider this politically incorrect financial talk.

- No, no. - You're polite. But I was a Marine in Vietnam. The time to be polite, time not to be polite. You know, if I really suspect that we're going to collapse, I'd better say it. And that's why I love Trump, you know, because he just-- he called-- he said, George Bush, you know, he was the skipper of the Titanic for 9/11.

For the economic collapse and for the invasion of Iraq. He said, the guy is incompetent. And all the Republicans say, how can you say that? How can you say that? Well, that's what happened. That's what happened. And no, no, no, that didn't happen. That didn't happen. George didn't do that, you know.

Give me a break. - Over the years, you mentioned Donald Trump. He is probably the premier figurehead currently of controversy and turning controversy to his advantage. And over the years, you've certainly been embroiled in various controversies. How have you learned to deal with-- personally, with deal with the emotion and the business impact of controversy?

- Oh, I mean, when people call your names and all that stuff? - I just-- it goes more than that. But I mean, you-- first of all, I mean, your-- all of your writing was built upon a controversial title, your initial book about-- "Don't Go to School." I forget the exact title.

Forgive me. So that's obviously a controversial perspective. But then over the years, your books have been incredibly successful. And that's brought a lot of public scrutiny. And there's even a Slate article this week challenging a lawsuit that you're engaged in. And I don't care about the particulars of that.

That's a-- you know, people-- that's a place for another format. I'm interested in the personal experience of that, of how have you learned personally to deal with that and maintain, I guess, a sense of happiness while going through controversial situations? - That's a great-- that's a very good question.

I do a lot of meditation. And I also-- you know, if I am, let's say, wrong, I admit it. And I just pay the dues. But other than that, if I'm worried about what pencil heads think of me, then I'm a pencil head, too, you know? I-- look, I just-- you can ask my accountant.

I have the money. I have all that stuff. Most lawsuits are frivolous, you know? I just got charged, again, some of this is a sexual harassment. I said, "You gotta be kidding me." You know what I mean? People are so f'ed up today. It's incredible. But if I run my life upon that, being afraid of pencil heads, not worth living, you know what I mean?

- Over the course of 20 years as a teacher and author and lecturer and guru, and I mean that in a complimentary sense, not a derogatory sense, what would be some of the biggest mistakes, or what advice have you given over the years that you've come to regret? - I haven't.

I've told people, "Your house is not an asset. Savers are losers, and I don't invest in the stock market." And I use debt, and I don't pay taxes. I mean, I don't just give advice, I live my advice. And the thing that's happened, that's why "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" came out in April of 1997, so it's 19 years, 20 years next year, is almost everything I've said has come true.

I've said, "Savers will be losers." And now we have quantitative easing. You don't have ZURP, you know, ZURP is zero-interest rate policy. You now have NERP, negative-interest rate policy. It means you have to pay to save money. So savers are the biggest losers, and people are still saving money.

And I said, "The biggest stock market crash is coming in 2016." And on schedule, we've already lost one-third of the wealth of this country. And those guys with 401(k)s just got wiped out in 2016. So, I mean, I just call it as I see it. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

But so far, I'm fairly accurate. I also called 2007. So all I'm just saying is we're going to collapse in 2016 or 2017 simply because we're going to go the same way Japan did and Greece does and Puerto Rico and Brazil. We can't keep printing money. So that's why lesson one, chapter one is the rich don't work for money.

And that's why I said right now, I think gold looks pretty good because if money comes down in value of the dollar, then gold should go past $2,000. I wouldn't buy past $2,000. But I'd rather have gold than the dollar right now. 50 years from now, gold will still be around.

The dollar won't be. That's what's happening. And so if I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But so far, I'm right. A consistent theme of your message is to acquire and invest in financial education. So I assume you put your money where your mouth is and that you have developed mentors and advisors, obviously, beyond the rich dad figure that you talk about.

Who do you look for financial advice, economic advice? Who are your current mentors, advisors, and sources of financial education? Well, one is Donald Trump. You know, we wrote two books together. And we're both real estate guys. Also, there's a guy named Bert Dillman, "The Grace of Wellington" report. Everybody should subscribe to that.

And a couple other guys. One, the big one that really understands it is a guy named Richard Duncan. He wrote "The Dollar Crisis." He's hard to read. That's the only problem. But when he wrote "The Dollar Crisis," it was easier than to predict the downfall of China. And so what I'm saying to people right now, and Kyle Bass just said it, this is the Chinese banking crisis will be bigger than the U.S.

banking crisis. So you can sit there and hope and pray and buy your mutual funds and hope that guys like Kyle Bass, myself, and Duncan and Dillman are wrong. Or you can take evasive action right now and do something while gold is under about $1,200 an ounce or silver is at $1,500 an ounce.

Because the problem is not stock markets or real estate. It's currency. That's why the rich don't work for money. In 1971, Nixon took us off the gold standard. And today it's called quantitative easing. We have printed more money than any time in the history of the world. And when we have $200 trillion in unfunded liabilities, the odds are they're going to print some more to cover it.

Now, if they don't cover it, we collapse anyway. You grew up in Hawaii. And as I understand it, Hawaii would lean towards more of a liberal political philosophy. What did you say? Very common. If they believe the government should solve our problems, I don't like the government. Understood. Hawaii is one of three states I haven't yet been to.

So I was being careful with my description. I'm trying to. It's just that I don't keep my money there. And no one would keep my money in California or New York. Right. You know what I mean? I'm not that stupid. I didn't do well in school, but I don't keep my money in Hawaii, California, or New York.

Texas is better. Florida is better. Nevada is good. So you grew up in a liberal environment, and your biological father was in the government school system. But today, you seem to have moved in a very libertarian political direction and a very free market Austrian economics position. How did you come to that change of thinking?

Well, that's the story of Rich Dad Poor Dad. My rich dad was theoretically an uneducated man, but he was very smart financially. And he really thought that he's kind of like Trump. He didn't really not like government. He says you got to have them. But he said he just don't want to think like him.

You know, and so my poor dad always believed the government should take care of people. So my poor dad was more like Bernie Sanders and Hillary. And my rich dad was more like Trump. That's the difference. And we all have those choices. So I don't I don't I don't trust my government at all.

I mean, I'm a Vietnam veteran. I went there twice. And we're lied to the same thing we're being lied to in the Middle East right now. You know, those ISIS is made up of a lot of Saddam Hussein's ex fighters. We finance our enemies. So I don't really want to participate.

You've for about 20 years, you've skirted the issue of talking about the identity of the rich dad figure. Do you ever intend to disclose a name or put that controversy to rest? I think it was already disclosed. I did a radio show with his son. It's called Rich Dad Radio.

You can go to his archive. And we talked about what he taught us. Who was the who was the rich dad? What was his name? I don't I don't give that. See, there you go. You're going right around. What was the name of the son? What difference would it make?

If you just go to Rich Dad Radio, you want to listen to the program, go listen to the program. All right. So it's I will. It won't make you any richer, I promise. I'll let you go on that one. How we doing on time? I got a couple of questions more.

Do you have a few more minutes or do we need to cut it off here? No, no, go ahead. Okay, because I know we only we're only booked for 30 minutes. I want to be respectful of your time. Personally, in your teachings, you talk about escaping the rat race.

And I'm interested to know at what point in time, historically, in your life, did you first come to the realization that you had actually escaped the rat race? What was the what was the how did you know that you were out of the rat race at that point? That's two good questions.

I would say about 1994. So my wife and I met in 84 and we were free by 94. We weren't rich. We're making about $150,000 a year without working because we had real estate. And we weren't paying taxes on $150,000. So that was our goal. But you're not rich at $150,000.

And then I would say last year, I went past what I need. You know, I have too much money now. So it was kind of a it was kind of a tragic year because I was going, no, my game is finished because I have I have more than enough money.

So then that's wealthy, as rich as wealthier than what's next. So that's kind of my evolution. But why did you know? And the reason I let me give you more backstory and more context for the question. In the personal finance industry, we gurus talk a lot about escaping the rat race and having enough money to be rich or to be financially free, financially independent, etc.

But the thing I've noticed is and this was one of the conclusions I came to as a financial advisor was that nobody retires. And the reason nobody retires is that those who are rich and wealthy don't want to retire. And those who are desperate to retire because they don't want they don't want to do what they're doing anymore for work, never actually build the money to retire.

And so on its face, almost nobody retires. Obviously, I used to work with retired clients. That's a it's a it's a provocative statement. But when you look at it, Conrad, Donald Trump is not retired. You're not retired. Dave Ramsey is not retired. Insert whoever, whatever popular rich figure that you want to talk about.

Nobody retires. And so we always struggle a little bit with this definition, because once you reach the escape point from the rat race, once you reach that point of financial freedom or financial independence, my observation is that most people don't actually retire. So if you're not going to retire, if you're not going to quit, then how do you know when you hit your goal?

Well, it's not financial freedom, not retirement. Those are two retirement is for people who hate what they do. I love what I do. I just want to be free. They're very, very different words. So it's a very good question. But anybody who dreams of retirement really hates their job.

That's the problem. So at that point, I was financially free at 47. My wife was 37. That was in 1994. And we just keep doing what we love to do. We buy more and more real estate. We start more businesses. Don't pay any taxes. And harass people. That's why if you read my book, Second Chance, you look at some of the charts there of the Dow for 120 years.

If that doesn't scare the you know what out of you. You know, I would, I would, you know, when you look at 120 years of the Dow, what cracks me up is every time I listen to CNBC, they talk about the giant crash of 1929. Well, you can look at the chart of the Dow from 1895 to 2015, you'll see the giant crash of 1929 doesn't even register.

As compared to the crash of 2000, 2000 and 2007 and the one that's coming. This crash is so big. I mean, if you look at that chart in my book, Second Chance, you won't need coffee for a week. And especially if you have a 401k or you're counting on, you know, like CalPERS, the state pension plans, they're all bankrupt.

They're all bust. You know, three years ago, Obama had to, you know, bail out, I think the Frito or the Twinkies drivers, you know, because their defined contribution plan got wiped out. So he bailed out the Twinkie guys. It's coming. I mean, you know, you can say, well, it's not coming.

Maybe it won't. Just look at the charts, look at the graphs and second chance. And you can make up your own mind. You know, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think so. Just look at the charts, look at the graphs. The pictures are worth a thousand words.

A 10 year old kid can understand it. You look at the amount of money printing going on. You look at when Social Security goes bust. All those charts are in there. I'll give you my rebuttal. So I'm generally pessimistic about the long term future of the United States government as it currently stands.

However, I, this is my personal opinion. I don't expect, I don't expect there to be such a dramatic, you know, end of the world as we know it event. We're in global war, et cetera. I can't quite get to that position. Now, I have not read second chance. So I'm under equipped for the conversation.

However, having studied a lot of doom and gloom economic prognostication, the major factors that I find to be compelling against the doom and gloom scenario is number one, companies are not countries. Countries go bankrupt all the time. And so I expect over time, the US government to go bankrupt.

I expect the US government to default on its debt. That doesn't necessarily impact or influence what the companies that I own shares of might do. And number two, simply because something is a historical event that doesn't lend indication to the future that something is going to happen again. Now, obviously cycles exist, but there's always got to be a causation factor.

And when I look at the world that exists fundamentally, the simple fact that I see is that our currency is humming along perfectly fine. The US dollar is the most valued reserve dollar in the world, excuse me, reserve currency in the world. Certainly it has its chinks in the armor.

But the basic logical flaw that I see in a lot of economic doom and gloom prognostication is that people say, well, the world has been controlled up to this point by the central banking system. And then something's going to happen that's out of their control and then it's all going to fall apart.

And I don't see how that argument holds water. Where am I wrong? It might be right. I mean, I'm not here to-- everybody's-- that's why I said there are three financial planners in the world, Suze Orman, Dave Ramsey, and me. I use debt. I don't pay taxes. That's my game.

You know, if I owned stocks, I'd pay taxes. So I don't want to pay taxes. Can you expand a little bit more of what you mean as far as by the statement, I don't pay taxes? Are you specifically referring to that because of using real estate, you have significant enough depreciation allowances that that reduces your profits?

Or can you give that answer a little more texture, please? Yeah. I don't have a job, OK? So I don't have a work for money. So when money comes in, I buy-- like last year, I bought 2,000 units. Now, the reason I buy 2,000 units of apartments is because I get-- and I use debt.

I use depreciation. I just depreciate them. And so my income is offset by depreciation. So I have to buy more real estate so I can keep losing money. I'll refer the listener to your books on the subject of tax-free wealth. I'm not saying do it. I'm just saying that's my game.

And if Dave Ramsey lived debt-free and I just borrowed $500 million, a half a billion, obviously he's not going to agree with me either. Right. Right. And this is-- And I don't expect anybody to agree with me. I just started back in 1973 with a little one-bedroom, one-bath house in the island of Maui.

I paid for it with a credit card, and it was 100% debt. I made $25. And I got to depreciate it. Capitalism is a lovely form of making money. Right. And it's very doable. If I got a job, I'd have to pay tax. Agreed. Agreed. And it's very doable.

And just for the listener's sake, the simple concept here is just recognize that borrowed money you don't pay taxes on. Because it's not income. It's borrowed money. So if you can arrange-- But the problem is you pay money on stocks. I don't pay money on real estate. There's a very big difference there.

In fact, I got accelerated depreciation and all those other things that reduced my taxes. So it's just a different game. And financial education is a very, very big subject. So I'm not saying-- that's why I started this whole thing. Three people-- Susie, Dave, and myself. And somewhere in there, people find their happy camp in there somewhere.

(laughs) What do you do in your free time that you value the most? I probably study a lot. There's a book I think everybody should read, but nobody is. It's called-- I forget the name-- but it's written by David Stockman. It's about 750 pages long. If you want to find out why we're in financial trouble, it's that book.

It's by David Stockman. It's "The Great Unraveling of the Great"-- something like that. But he's not a doom and gloom guy. He just explains stupidity. You know, how Greenspan and how Bernanke and all these guys-- and Paulson-- just ripped us off, which is my belief anyway. You're referring to "The Great Deformation" book?

"The Great Deformation" is what it is, yeah. It's a fantastic book. But it's 750 pages. And then there's Richard Duncan's book called "The Dollar Crisis," which explains why China is in trouble. But China is no different than Mexico or Indonesia and those guys, and then Japan and why now the United States is next.

It's all factual. Just look at it. You can see it coming. You can't keep printing money to pay your bills. At this point in time, you are still overseer and the head of a very large business. And I'm interested to know, what does your normal work day look like from the beginning?

I don't have a job. I mean, I don't go to work anymore. I'm a CEO and a president. When I said that statement to you that rich don't work for money, I'm living proof of it. I don't have an office. I sit around and I read. And I do stuff like that.

How did you make the transition? And explain what I'm asking. So I run a small business here with Radical Personal Finance. This is currently squarely in the self-employment quadrant. It is not a capital B business. It is squarely in the self-employment quadrant. However, we're moving in a different direction.

I'm capitalizing on the resources and assets that I have and the skills and moving in a different direction. But one of the most challenging things is making those transitions, figuring out how to transition a business from the owner-operator doing all of the work to overseeing an organization. Where were the inflection points for you?

Where you transitioned little by little? And how did you educate yourself through that process? Well, Josh, I'm not going to give you an answer. I'll flip it, but it's true. I mean, what I always say, the key to success is incompetence. So since I'm incompetent, I have to find good people.

Like, you don't find me fixing my car or fixing my teeth or doing any of that stuff. It's that I just remain incompetent. You know, that's a story of how the Huckleberry Finn or Mark Twain, they got somebody else to paint the fence for them. That's me. I get everybody else to paint the fence.

So you may be incompetent at everything other than finding good people, then, because that is certainly probably one of the most financially valuable skills. How did you become competent at finding and attracting the right people to your organization? Well, it's like the same thing. If you kiss a lot of frogs, you'll find a prince.

I went through a lot of bad people. Bad people. You know, that, what do they call it, bankruptcy owner, that thing they're going after is a bad person. I've never been personally bad. I'm like Trump. I've never been personally bankrupt, but I've had a couple of companies go bankrupt.

And it was always due to bad people, either incompetent or criminal. So that's the price you pay. And that's why most people stay small is they don't trust other people. After the bankruptcy proceedings and the lawsuits and those things were settled, what changes did you make in your business practices?

Or you just said, okay, finding bad people. Did you make any changes after that based upon what you learned? That's right. Of course I did. Yeah. I had to, you know, I can't blame the other guy, if you know what I mean. And that one lawsuit, you know, it's because I was an asshole.

You know, I mean, I caught the guy cheating and all this and I pounded on him. And he sued. Yeah, just because I was, I didn't do anything wrong per se. I just told him he was screwed up. And I warned him the crash was coming in 2006. And he wouldn't listen and all this.

And he went down with it. And he and I got into a fight. I should never have screamed and yelled at him. That's what I did. So he sued and won. Right. Anyway, that's what happens in life, you know. You don't, you don't, you know, you don't go to court to, for settlement.

You know, you don't go to court for justice or truth. You go to court because you want to get rid of somebody in your life. And people just lie, lie, lie. And that's how you learn. You know, so I learned. So I don't, I don't get into those arguments.

I'm, that's why I have my rich dad advisors. I might have about eight other guys I do business with. And I don't go outside of that group. Does that make sense to you? And if I don't trust them, I don't do business anymore. I have two final questions. I'm interested to know about your writing process and how that's changed since the beginning.

This is primarily just a personal question. Me using the opportunity to ask somebody who's more experienced than I am. It seems to me like you, your primary skills in watching you are in verbal communication. And that's for me, verbal communication is the, is the key skill. I struggle at writing.

And over the years you have attracted to yourself co-authors who've made contributions and rich dad advisors, things like that. And then you've effectively used those to build, to build a brand. When you sat down in the beginning to write a book, did you write the first one just yourself?

And how did you learn to transition from sitting there and arguing with a typewriter to, I guess, being the face of the brand and using the skills of other people to build it? How did you learn that? Well, first of all, I flunked out of high school twice because I can't write.

So for me to write is a blessing from God someplace. But it is, I sit there and struggle every morning and that's what I'm doing. I just sit there and struggle with me. There's a book called The War of Art and everybody should get it who wants to be a writer.

It's how you just sit there with a blank screen or a page or a paper. And then that's where the battle starts and everybody goes through it. So it's called The War of Art. I forgot the, I should know his name. Steven Pressfield. Yeah. And it's a fantastic book.

But it's the, it's, anybody who is successful goes through that struggle, whether it's in golf or acting or in medicine or something like this. And the unsuccessful people don't go through that process regardless what the process is. So The War of Art is a great, great book to read and understand.

Why do you write? Why do you put yourself through that struggle? Well, because that's what my passion is. You know, I could, you know, I tell you this, this market's going to come down. I've been right every single time. We're going to go down and I can see it coming.

I've been, you can go to my website. I did a video called The Man I Could See the Future. 60 minutes long. You can look at it, watch it. But I'm calling the crashes and I'm calling this one coming up now. I'm on time, on schedule. And the people, you know, who go to school and get a job and save money and work hard, they're getting wiped out.

They're getting wiped out all over the world. It breaks my heart. So I just keep writing. I do what I can to, you know, and look, a person does what they have to do. You know, you are very accurate. A person can only do what they're capable of doing.

So when I talk about how I use debt, I don't pay tax, and I buy this and that, I didn't start that way, but that's what I've learned to become. And the average person will not go through that process. As you know, as a financial planner, all my friends who are financial planners tell me that most people choose to be poor because they're lazy.

They work hard, but they're lazy. And that's the problem. - I guess the reason I'm probing on the writing question is you mentioned that writing is difficult, but you say it's your passion. What is your passion, the writing or the communication of ideas that you think are important? - It's the communication.

I'm still trying to save my poor dad. My poor dad went to Stanford, you know, Chicago, Northwestern, he's a PhD. At 50, he lost his job. He couldn't recover. He didn't have the skill sets. And who do we listen to in the world today? We listen to guys like Bernanke and Greenspan and Yellen, and these are just like my poor dads, they're academics who don't know the reality and theory.

You know, they should be sent to jail, both Greenspan and Bernanke and Yellen, they should go to jail. You know, as Trump said to Jim Bush, he says, "Your brother should be impeached." But we don't impeach him, we make him heroes. I mean, you know, I'm a former Marine.

George Bush destabilized Saddam Hussein and now we have ISIS. We should never have gone to war. And we lose thousands of people and now they'll come get us. So when Trump says he should be impeached, I agree with him. Other people go, "You know, it wasn't his fault, you know, but he's the guy that gave the orders." So all I'm saying is protect yourself and I don't care who gets elected after that.

You can elect Sanders or you can elect Trump. It won't make any difference to me, that's what I'm saying. Because I'm not dependent upon their actions for my security. When you look at your involvement in the personal finance industry, I mean, you have, your Rich Dad brand and 20 years of involvement have seen a lot of people who have been in the business for 20 years, who have been in the business for 20 years of involvement, have seen major changes in the last 20 years.

What's the same and what's different as far as the personal finance advice? As I said, everything I said 20 years ago is coming true. I don't invest in the stock market. The 401(k)s are a ripoff and savers are losers and don't look for job security. I mean, nothing's really changed.

They're highly educated people. Many, many people have lost their 401(k)s and their savings the last crash. Many people have lost their houses. Nothing I have said has changed. It's just that people can't hear you. Your house is not an asset. What do you mean my house is not an asset?

What do you mean don't save money? What do you mean a 401(k) is a ripoff? You know, what do you mean don't go to school if you don't get a job? Because you're probably going to lose your job anyway. That's what's happening. And you know who pays the most taxes?

The people that work for money. This is true. That's the lesson one. The rich don't work for money. It goes back. Nothing's really changed, Josh. Everything I said has happened. Everything I'm saying has come true. Look at 2016. It's crashing. Well, it's not real. We're already in a recession.

China is about to implode. And I say, as long as gold's under $1,500, you may want to buy some. That's all I said. Because I think they're going to print more money. Now, if I'm wrong, it's going to collapse anyway. You can't pay off $250 trillion with money you don't have.

It's just not mathematical possible. Yeah, I agree. There is no mathematical way for the United States government to ever satisfy its debt obligation. So I fully agree with you. Last question. Last question I'd like to ask. I thought I'd close this, but it makes it the last question. Yeah, this is it.

I appreciate the questions, and I appreciate the in-depthness of them. Thank you, Josh. Absolutely. Ask the question. What do you wish your legacy to be? I don't even think about that. I just do what I think I have to do. You know, I mean, I don't-- I'm really concerned about my fellow human beings.

You know, we don't learn anything about money at school. Nothing. Nothing. If they do learn something, tell them to save money, get a job, work hard, invest in a 401(k). And those are the biggest ripoffs going. Now, that's why I started this whole thing. Three kinds of advisors. Susie, Orman, Dave Ramsey, and myself.

And that's why I like the title of your show, "Radical Personal Finance." I think we should all get a little bit more radical and think outside the box, because if you're thinking inside the box, you're probably getting wiped out. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. And I don't think-- You know, Trump's my friend, but he can't save us.

And Bernie Sanders can't save us. And neither can Hillary. So you better do something. The very best thing that could happen for Donald Trump would be for him to go far in the-- to go far in the primary-- or in the primary process, or perhaps even the election process, and then lose.

Because whoever is elected as the next president of the United States will face a major problem. And I pity the man or woman who becomes president. The next president's going to be the skipper of a Titanic. That's why I agree with it. Right. Well, richdad.com is your website. You do Rich Dad Radio.

The book-- you said your latest book is "Second Chance." Anything else that you're excited about that you'd like for the listeners to check out? I would check out some of the videos, especially on CNN in 2008, when I was calling for the fall of Lehman and Goldman and all those guys.

It's-- I recorded all that stuff since then. And so I said, "2016's the next crash, and on schedule, 2016 is crashing." Robert Kisiaki, thank you for coming on. Thank you very much, Josh. Fascinating to hear the inside story from someone who's been around for so long. Hope you enjoyed that interview.

I hope you can take some of the information that Robert shared. Hey, you got to do what you got to do for your own situation. Learn from everybody. But you got to apply it in your own situation. So be careful. Make your decisions carefully. Be thoughtful. Do your homework.

Do your own research. So, Robert, thank you for coming on the show. Welcome any of you who have found the show because of Robert Kisiaki. He's a big name, so I'm sure there's many new listeners to the show. If you've not heard of Radical Personal Finance, make sure you subscribe to the show.

We do the show-- try to hit about five days a week. Usually it's probably about four. We do the show here Monday through Friday, about four or five episodes a week. And we talk about living a rich life now and building financial freedom in 10 years or less. Work through technical questions.

Work through big picture questions. We talk about entrepreneurship. We talk about tax planning. We talk about living rich. We talk about living poor. We talk about what you can learn from dumpster divers and hobos. I need to do another one of those shows again. And also we need to talk about what you can learn from billionaires.

And I need to do more of those shows because I have-- that's probably the little tag that I've not done the best job on. So if this is your first time here, please make sure you subscribe to the show. You can find it in iTunes. Or the easiest thing is just search the App Store on your phone for Radical Personal Finance.

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