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It's more than just a ticket. A lot of people have this dream as regards their financial independence. The dream is this. I'm going to work hard, save money. I'm going to build up enough money to where I'm financially independent. And then I'm going to take off and I'm going to travel the world.

I'm going to spend time going to places in the world that I want to go and doing adventurous things. And that's cool. I support that. I've got to some degree that dream myself. But what if you just skipped all that hard work of saving up a bunch of money and becoming financially independent and you just got a job that paid you to travel the world?

Today, we talk with a listener who's done exactly that. Welcome to the Radical Personal Finance Podcast. My name is Joshua Sheets and I'm your host. Thank you for being with me today. Today, we talk with listener of the show, Sarah Minor, who reached out to me and she basically said this, "Hey, Joshua, I like the show, but frankly, it's gotten a little boring lately.

It's not very radical." Tell you what, to spice up the show, Joshua, I'll share my story with you if you like. It's pretty cool. And I said, "Hey, Joshua, I'm getting kind of bored. Where's the radical stuff?" And I'll say, "Well, what do you propose?" And you'll respond back with something and who knows, I may have you on.

No, I'm thrilled to have Sarah on for today's show. It's very cool, very exciting, and this is a cool story that she's going to share with you about how she and her husband have built a life of adventure that allows them to work, do work they care about, do well financially, save money, and yet still enjoy traveling the world and living in a lifestyle that they have decided is right for them.

And I think it should be an inspirational story. I'm all about helping you speed up your results. I've searched personally, searched and searched for what is the theme of radical personal finance. I didn't know the theme when I started. And some themes have emerged, however, that I feel strongly about.

And one of those themes is speeding up the results, skipping some of the unnecessary steps in order to get where you really want to go. And I think this is a great example of that. I'm not saying skip hard work. Hard work is generally important. I'm not saying skip having a plan.

I'm not saying that you can have instant gratification. But I am saying that you can design a much more efficient plan than what is often presented as the standard plan and the standard approach in our society around. So in today's show, we're going to do exactly that. Before I play the interview, though, I want to hook up our sponsor.

Sponsor of the day number one is Jay Fleischman from The Student Loan Show. Jay is an awesome guy. Twice he has been a guest on Radical Personal Finance. He hosts a podcast called The Student Loan Show and he is a bankruptcy and student loan attorney. What you need to know about Jay is this.

Number one, if you have student loans, you need to call him. Go to studentloanshow.com/radical. Sign up for a free – excuse me. Sign up for his basic level email consultation, 50 bucks for him to do a review of your student loans. Situations, you're going to hear Sarah and me in today's show talk briefly about working for organizations like the Peace Corps, other federal organizations that will help in student loan forgiveness.

That's the type of strategy Jay can talk to you about and in many situations can make a big difference. But there are so many options with student loan shows. Jay is a real expert and you should talk to him. If I had student loans, the first thing I would do would be to have a consultation with Jay and make sure I'm paying them off in the most intelligent way.

Number two, if you are in any kind of confrontational situation with a creditor, especially a student loan creditor, reach out to Jay for advice. Number three, listen to his show. It's well worth it. Advice of the day number two today is Paladin Registry. Paladin is my recommendation to you for where to start your search for a financial advisor.

Finding a financial advisor can be tough. Finding a good financial advisor is even tougher. I can't promise that you're definitely going to be able to find that great financial advisor through Paladin Registry. But I can promise that it's a better place to start than just randomly walking around and seeing what's nearby you.

Paladin Registry is a financial advisor registry service where they go through and they carefully vet and research the advisors that join their organization. The advisors pay to be listed in their organization. But it's the most ethical way that the founder, possibly Jack Wehmeyer, was actually able to come up with and I fully agree with him.

It's the best starting place that we have. So if 2016 is the year that you've decided to get a handle on your finances, start by reaching out and interviewing some local financial advisors. Start your search at RadicalPersonalFinance.com/financialadvisor. You'll find a link to their website, their website is at RadicalPersonalFinance.com/paladin.

That will forward you through to their webpage. You'll put in your contact information. You know how this thing works. You put in your name, your email address, your phone number, your zip code, where you're located. You put in the amount of assets that you have that you'd like the financial advisor's input and advice on and kind of what you're looking for.

Put that form in. That form will go into Paladin. They will take it. They will connect you with some advisors in your area who fit your criteria and they will pass those advisors' information on to you. You can expect to receive a couple of calls from those advisors. Then from there, it's up to you.

You can interview them. Start on the phone. They will invite you into their office for a meeting. Go in and meet with them and see if any of them click with you and then let me know about your feedback. So far, the feedback has been pretty good. I've been impressed.

A couple of questions, people said, "Hey, I talked to a couple of people and they were good, but they just weren't right for me." Totally fine. That's what is expected. You got to find someone who's the right personality fit, but it's a great place to start. So go to RadicalPersonalFinance.com/Paladin.

And now it's time to play the interview with Sarah. Sarah, welcome to Radical Personal Finance. Sarah Riegel (00:01:30): Thanks for having me. Tyler Reilly (00:01:31): I am so glad that you are on the show today. You're a long-time listener and I love being able to profile stories like yours as we'll do through the course of this interview.

And I'm excited because you wrote me a note and you said, "Joshua, the content has not been very radical lately. How about we get some more radical content on the show?" And I wrote you back and I said, "Put up or shut up. Let's hear your story and we're going to bring your story." So you've got a test today.

Let's find out how radical you really are. Sarah Riegel (00:02:05): I'll do my best. Tyler Reilly (00:02:07): So you and your husband have built a really interesting lifestyle that has allowed you to live and adventure, but also do well financially. And I'd love for you to share a little bit of that story.

Let's start with where you're living now and how you wound up there. Sarah Riegel (00:02:25): Sure. So my husband and I are living in Madagascar off the East Coast of Africa. And we've been here a very short time, actually. We moved here about four months ago. And prior to that, we lived in a country in West Africa called Burkina Faso for three years.

And we got here. Well, do you want the long version or the short version? Tyler Reilly (00:02:49): Let's go with the medium long version. Sarah Riegel (00:02:51): Okay. I met my husband in the Peace Corps. We were Peace Corps volunteers in Benin in West Africa and always knew that we wanted to live overseas and pursue international careers.

And so after the Peace Corps, we came back to the States and we lived on the East Coast for almost five years. I got my master's degree and he worked for Peace Corps, actually. And then after five years and once I finished my degree, we moved back to West Africa.

He worked for Peace Corps for several years and eventually joined the Foreign Service. Tyler Reilly (00:03:17): So are you at all working with the Peace Corps now? Who are you actually working with now? Sarah Riegel (00:03:23): I work for NGOs, international NGOs in the field of global health. And my husband works for State Department.

Tyler Reilly (00:03:29): How interesting. And the cool thing about this is you guys have been able to travel the world and be able to make money, right? Sarah Riegel (00:03:36): Yeah. Well, so far. Yes. Tyler Reilly (00:03:40): Was this originally the long-term plan? So you both were involved with the Peace Corps.

Did you always just know that the expatriate lifestyle was something that was appropriate to you? Or did you just bumble into the opportunity? Sarah Riegel (00:03:56): I think it was much more kind of always in my future than it was for my husband. Since I was a kid, I traveled with my parents.

I studied different foreign languages. I studied abroad in college. This was always something that I wanted to do. And I always wanted to be in a field of public service. So living overseas and working with NGOs was very much something that I knew from the time I was in college I wanted to do.

My husband, on the other hand, maybe stumbled into it a little bit. And he joined Peace Corps on a bit of a whim and met me. And I guess, I suppose I would say I kind of turned his life upside down. I don't know that he would have chosen on his own to live in developing countries for the next 15 years, but here we are.

So it's a little of both. What is your lifestyle like? Sarah Riegel (00:04:33): Oh, that's a great question. So I think what's interesting that people probably don't realize is that our life is not that exotic. We still get up at six in the morning and shower, breakfast, go to work, work eight to 10 to 12 hour days and come home and dinner.

It's really not that different the day to day from what we did in the States. But what's different is that we do it in very interesting places. And we get to work with people from different cultures and different backgrounds who speak different languages and who kind of help us broaden our perspective.

There's probably something to do with the individual personality of different people where they either like it or they hate it. Some people dealing with foreign customs, foreign traditions, it's very difficult for them. For some people, it's easier. I like it because a lot of times it just allows me to simply take people as they are more and just say, "Oh, that's their culture." I get frustrated much more easily with my US American compatriots than I do when I'm traveling abroad at the weird customs.

Lauren Ruffin (00:05:17): Yeah, it's very funny. One of the examples that we always talk about is when we were Peace Corps volunteers and in general Peace Corps volunteers, many of them get put in very small villages, kind of in the middle of nowhere where people tend to have certain ideas.

And as a Peace Corps volunteer, you spend a lot of time trying to integrate into that community and accept these ideas no matter how different they are from your own. You say, "I don't know best here because this isn't my community. And so I need to be very accepting of these things." Whereas in the United States, in very similar situations, I find myself being much more judgmental of ideas that I don't agree with.

Even though the situation is really the same, I might not know where that person's from. I might not know their background. And I'm still not an expert, but I think I'm a lot more, and I think many people are a lot more laid back and accepting of differences like that when they're in foreign countries.

I'd like to cover some information on the actual market opportunity as far as Peace Corps and international NGO work, that type of thing. But before we do that, I want to actually just ask about some of the tactical boots on the ground aspects of your lifestyle. You just moved to Madagascar.

Did you guys have to figure out all of the logistics and figure out where you're going to live, how you're going to get there, all that stuff? Or did you just show up and move into the apartment that somebody had chosen for you? What are the actual logistics of this lifestyle like?

Well, it varies a little bit from person to person, and I'll tell you about us and then kind of about how it works for some other folks. So we're very lucky in that my husband has worked with the United States Foreign Service, and the U.S. Embassy here has been absolutely fantastic in helping us get settled in.

There is embassy housing, so an apartment was already identified. They helped us ship our things. It makes settling in much, much easier. You don't have to find your own apartment. You don't have to figure out how you're going to get your phone line installed. A lot of those little things are taken care of by my husband's employer, which is great.

And there are some employers that do that, not just the U.S. government. But then there are also, for a lot of folks who work for NGOs, they have to handle all of that themselves. So they arrive, and they might live in a hotel for the first 30 to 60 days while they're looking for an apartment.

They have to buy a car. They have to buy furniture to set up their house. So it varies quite a bit. What is the U.S. Foreign Service? It is the ambassadors of the United States government to the rest of the world. So my husband, he's not a diplomat. He works in management and administration at the U.S.

Embassy here. And if someone is interested in getting started in that world, what's the best, in the world of an international expatriate lifestyle, what are some of the different paths that you guys have gone through or that other people have gone through and good ways to test it out, see if you like it, and then move into kind of, I guess, the cushier side of things?

So I would say that there are, for people who are interested and willing to live in developing countries, there are two main paths, maybe three. And the first is, of course, NGO work and humanitarian work. And to start on that path, it helps to speak at least one foreign language.

French, Spanish, Portuguese are very popular. Russian, if you want to go to the former Soviet Union. And also, you know, have studied NGO management or public health or economic development or something like that. But there are lots of entry level jobs in these fields in the United States. And you have to, you know, gain some amount of experience in order to end up overseas.

The second field is government. So there are lots of agencies of the United States government, if somebody's American, and many other nations also have diplomatic presence all over the world. In the United States, the best way to do that is to go to state.gov, the website of the State Department, and check out if you're interested in becoming a foreign service officer or a foreign service specialist, who are the folks who keep our embassies running and who handle diplomatic relations overseas.

And then finally, you know, there are small, it depends very much on the country. I've lived in countries that are much less developed. And so there's not a lot of international business. But in some countries, Nigeria, South Africa, throughout Asia, there are a lot of business people who work for international businesses who are interested in growing their presence in developing countries, especially the larger countries, you know, Indonesia and Asia, that sort of thing.

So I would say those are the three kind of different strategies that you could look at for people who are interested in this line of work. How's the money and how does it vary among those three strategies? Oh, that's a great question. So I would say the money for people who work in the nonprofit field is probably the least attractive of the three.

But even among people who work for NGOs, the compensation for skilled positions overseas is, it's generous. I say that because a lot of the positions for our expatriate positions are designed to support a family on one income. And that's because in a lot of the countries, in developing countries around the world, it's very difficult for spouses to find employment.

And so many of these types of jobs come with a competitive salary to what you'd be paid in the US. And then some sort of, you know, housing or housing stipend. In some cases, there are, you know, extra allowances to attract qualified people, especially in countries that are difficult to live in.

You know, for people who are pursuing a career in government, it's also, you know, they make sure to cover your costs and to make sure you're earning something similar to what you would be in the United States. And the difficult part of the government positions is they move every two to three years, which is a hardship and is a hassle and very difficult.

And so those types of things are compensated. But you and even though they are designed for one income, you and your husband have been able to, both of you be employed. How have you been able to arrange that? Yeah, so we were very strategic. When we decided that we wanted to come overseas, we had seen a lot of kind of dual career couples really struggle with the transition because it can be really difficult, small labor markets with expat positions for both spouses to find jobs.

So we decided that between the two of us, the less employable person should find work first and then the more employable person would find something in that country once we arrived. So in our case, my husband works in a much more specialized field than I do. And there aren't a ton of opportunities overseas, whereas I work in global health.

That's my specialty. So he found the job first and then the countries that we've moved to once we arrive or once we know where we're going to be moving, I look for a job and I find them. But it's difficult. You know, there aren't a lot of couples who have the necessary skill sets to do that, with the exception of couples who have portable jobs.

So if one spouse wants to work overseas and they're able to find a job and the other spouse is not geographically bound, then they could live anywhere in the world and have the benefits of that dual income while, you know, enjoying a low cost of living. With regard to the cost, what countries have you lived in, you and your husband lived in, in this international career that you've been pursuing?

We were Peace Corps volunteers in Benin in West Africa. My husband lived in Mali for a brief period for six months. We lived in Burkina Faso for almost three years, also in West Africa, and just moved to Madagascar not too long ago. Okay, so all of those there in various parts of Africa.

My question was going to be about cost of living. I generally, my personal experience, I've not traveled in Africa with the exception of Egypt, which I'm not sure if that counts because it's so different than lower Africa. But when I've traveled, many of the countries that are developing economies do seem to have a lower cost of living.

And yet, I got that theory completely blown up when I moved to Haiti – excuse me, when I traveled in Haiti. And I found that traveling in Haiti was actually – it was one of the most expensive places I'd ever traveled. And what I found was the reason it was because there wasn't a developed middle class economy that either I could travel around on the tap tap for, you know, a penny or two.

But those conditions were – at that time, I was with my wife on our honeymoon, so those conditions weren't acceptable for what we were trying to do. Or I could travel with the rich people. And I was traveling around in a black Mercedes G-Wagon with tinted windows, and it's costing me $100 for a 20-minute ride to the bus station.

And that lack of a middle class economy was the best theory I could come up with for why Haiti was a really expensive place to – at least to travel for me. And it made me wonder if I didn't have some blind spots about traveling in other parts of the world.

So, living in those countries in Africa, what have you found as far as the cost of living? Is it dramatically cheaper than the United States? Have you found it to be equivalent because you're in the upper society? What's been your personal experience? So, I think there are two parts.

One part is in – sometimes there's just not a lot to spend your money on. So, in some countries that kind of are smaller or sleepy – the capital cities are sleepy towns. There's not a lot to do. There's not a lot to spend money on. So, maybe people might buy some souvenirs.

They may, you know, go out to dinner a couple times a week. But you're outside of kind of the consumerist culture of the United States. And so, I do think that people tend to spend less when they're in those types of environments where they're not being driven to spend money on all sorts of things.

And then the second part is related to cost of living like you mentioned. I think if you expect to live an American lifestyle in developing countries, it can be very expensive. Especially, I mean, you know, Madagascar is an island. Everything either gets flown in or gets boated in. The last two countries we lived in were landlocked, which makes things extremely expensive.

Anything that's imported, you know, comes in on the train and has those huge transport costs built in. So, if you expect to buy, you know, French cheese or French wine or whatever it may be, that's extremely expensive. But if you are willing to accept substitutes or if you're not expecting to live an American lifestyle, it can be very inexpensive because you can go to the market and you can get, you know, four pounds of strawberries for, you know, a dollar when they're in season or mangoes or whatever it may be.

If you were going to compare cost of living and incomes for some friends of yours who are in similar situations, what would be the type of numbers that you would guess as far as how much they could earn in these types of job positions and how much their costs of living would be?

So I would say that, you know, people that are in, you know, mid-level to senior positions would probably be earning in countries that I've lived in, which typically have kind of hardship allowances because it's very difficult to attract skilled people, might earn anywhere from, you know, $70,000 a year upwards.

And the cost of living, usually housing would be covered by an employer or at least subsidized by an employer. So the cost of living would be at the very most, you know, 60% of what they would be spending in the States. And it could probably be done with focus maybe even less.

I mean, the concepts of frugality could be extended. And to me, this is one of the opportunities that I see. If for people who are pursuing financial independence, you don't necessarily have to plan on working in this kind of lifestyle for a 40-year career, but with some focus and preparation and perhaps five or 10 years of work in a career like this and diligent savings on the side, that can make a huge difference for your financial independence plan.

And then if you wanted to continue traveling in various parts of the world, you could do that on your own investment income or if you wanted to move back to the States, you could potentially do that. And I see this as a really viable lifestyle for somebody to be able to build financial independence in a shorter period of time while still enjoying an out-of-the-norm adventure.

Exactly. Even people who aren't particularly disciplined about their finances, you'll frequently hear stories about folks who come back from a two- or three-year tour overseas, either in a danger post like Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan or a developing country, a hardship post, and they're able to put a down payment down on a house or they have finished paying off their student debt or their credit cards.

So even for people who don't really concentrate on it, they're able to make real progress on their finances. How in your experience does the tax situation work? So you guys are living out of the country, I would guess, for a majority of the year. What's been your experience with regard to your personal tax planning?

So our situation is kind of a mixed bag since my husband works for the federal government and I work for NGOs. He's required to pay federal taxes. All federal employees are required to pay federal taxes, even if they don't live in the United States. And my income is subject to the foreign earned income exclusion.

So my income up to, I think it's around $95,000, is not subject to federal tax, which is very nice. Are you then paying the local tax on that income? Yeah. So typically, this varies from country to country. In some countries, if you're not paying US tax and you're being paid locally, then you're required to pay whatever the local income tax is.

In other places, if for example, you're being, you know, your bank account is in the United States, then the tax issues are more complicated. So it varies a great deal from country to country. Developing countries tend to have less sophisticated taxation systems. It's not like if you're living in Germany, then there's very clear guidelines on how these things work.

It's a lot less clear and you really have to do your best to follow all of the local regulations when you're living in developing countries. Do you, how big of a factor are expenses to get back and forth to the United States for vacation or furlough in your budget?

It's probably our biggest single line item. A lot of employers will provide, you know, maybe one trip home a year or something like that, which makes a really big difference depending on where you're living. But even, you know, aside from that, you know, we've had some family events in the last four years, some deaths in the family, some weddings, that sort of thing.

And so for a while, we were actually back in the States every six months and, you know, we were spending easily, you know, $10,000 on plane tickets every year just to get back and forth. Wow. Yeah, definitely can add up and it's got to be factored in because it's not easy to live on the other side of the world from all those that you know.

It's probably easier now than it once was with the fact that we can connect more easily. Here we are talking in real time on opposite sides of the world for a very low cost, but it's still not easy to be away. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, it's one of those things that we kind of joke about as just being the tax that we pay, not an actual tax, but kind of a metaphorical tax for living overseas and having a low cost of living is that, you know, in return, we have a very large line item in our budget that is set aside for us to go home and spend time with our families.

Do you guys intend to do this long term? We do. Yeah, we we plan to, you know, for probably the next 15 or 20 years to to to be hopefully in Africa. This is where we're we're most at home, but really anywhere in the world. I'd like to ask you a couple more questions about the Peace Corps.

I seriously considered and looked at the Peace Corps when I was in college, and I just came to the perspective that I was like, I don't want to be an indentured servant for I don't remember what the stipend was, but it was it was minimal. And I figured if I'm just going to volunteer, then I'd rather volunteer in some other way.

But you've come through the path of the Peace Corps, and it would seem like that's probably a common path through. Do you have any advice, insight into the path of who should consider the Peace Corps and why? Yeah, absolutely. So it's not for everybody. The people who are very flexible and patient and you know, into trying new things, I think are great candidates.

The advantage of the Peace Corps is compared to a lot of other long term volunteer opportunities is that to be a Peace Corps volunteer, you don't have to pay money. And so many of the other volunteer opportunities, even the year long, you know, there's World Teach, there's a variety of different things, many of them, you know, you have to pay money in order to spend your time to do something.

With the Peace Corps, you do earn very, very little. It's true. I think after two years when I got back, I think I had a check for $6,000. And during the two years that I was living in Benin, I earned about $6 a day, which is, you know, local kind of local living living expenses.

But at the end, you know, I came back and a lot of my friends from college still hadn't managed to save $6,000. And I had a check, you know, to cover my first month's rent when I got home. So there are pluses and minuses. Two years is a very long commitment for some people.

But you know, it's a really interesting experience. There's really nothing like it in the world. There's no other country that has a volunteer service where, you know, you're the people, you have diplomats all over the world that live at the level of the community and represent your country to people who have probably never met an American before in their life.

It is pretty cool. And I like all of my friends that went into the Peace Corps. And I'm happy that a lot of I guess the US American representation around the world I'm not so proud of. But most of the Peace Corps people, I am proud of that. And so it's nice to have that, that positive influence.

I could see some ways that somebody could put together a unique strategy for their personal financial situation. For example, taking advantage of if somebody had a lot of student loan debt, I could see the opportunity to take advantage of the Peace Corps as a way to have low living expenses.

And yes, there's going to be low income. But by entering into some income-based repayment program, that could potentially lead to a substantial amount of that student loans forgiven for them. And if that were put together with working for a nonprofit organization, if the NGO were structured in a nonprofit way, they could continue that process and they could live the adventure while having, yes, their salary, but also some of the back-end benefits accrue in their financial situation.

Obviously, it would depend on the individual person. But then also, those benefits could be used to put together the educational track, the experience track, perhaps the foreign language skill that could set somebody up for a very interesting and potentially long-term lucrative international career. Yeah, exactly. And the nice thing about starting in Peace Corps is that Peace Corps, if you have, I believe it's federal student loans, they're deferrable while you're in Peace Corps.

So folks who are volunteering in developing countries don't necessarily have to worry during those two years about making those payments, and they can start to handle that when they get back, which gives them some breathing room while they're volunteering. But it is a great way. And in general, volunteering overseas and learning a foreign language is a great way to kind of get started in the field.

Ultimately, most people, at least in international development and humanitarian work, have master's degrees. And so there is that question of student loans and getting your master's degree that also has to be managed. But if you manage it well, some employers will provide tuition reimbursement, that sort of thing. It's certainly doable.

That was going to be my very next question, is how to make yourself attractive in this environment. And my guess was going to be foreign language skills and academic degrees. It would seem that academic degrees would be an important factor in that type of work environment. Do you have any other advice for people of how they can make themselves attractive in this marketplace?

Yeah. You know, I think experience, the working experience in multicultural environments, whether or not it's in different countries, is extremely important. A lot of people try to enter the field with a -- you know, straight up, they come out of college, they get their master's degree, and they try to find a job.

And so one way to set yourself apart, if you're interested in this field, is to have some work experience and be able to explain how that's applicable to the international field that you want to get into. So if you're interested in international education, have you taught in the United States?

That's very valuable, even just having, you know, a couple years of experience in a classroom. Or if you're interested in global health, you know, have you worked at your public health department? Or have you done research? I think having experience is really what sets people apart from all of the applicants that have a master's degree but zero years of experience.

Two final questions. What's the toughest thing about the expatriate lifestyle? Oh. I think for us, a lot of things that are difficult for other people who are expatriates aren't as challenging, because we both chose this lifestyle, and it's because we decided together that the benefits outweigh the costs. But there are two things that are really difficult about it.

One is that expatriate communities tend to be very transient. And so, not only, you know, we move every two to three years, but also most people in the expatriate community move, you know, every three, four, five years. And so as soon as you get to a new place, you know, it might take you six months or so to find your people and to make new friends.

And then, you know, maybe as short as a couple months later, they'll start to leave. And so it's very difficult to maintain a sense of community, even though expatriates in and of themselves do tend to be a community. It's difficult to have to make new friends everywhere you go every two to three years.

That's tough. And then it's very hard to be away from family. My family is very spread out all over the United States and all over the world, actually. I have siblings on other continents as well. And my husband's an only child. So we're both very, very far away from our parents.

And it's very difficult on our families that, you know, we're only home once a year or once every six months. We live in an interesting geopolitical climate. My last question is this. How's the morale in the Foreign Service and also in the NGO world? And have you seen any changes over past years?

So I think what's really interesting about spending large portions of your life outside of the United States as an American is that it makes you very, very patriotic. I think a lot of people in the Foreign Service, in the United States Foreign Service and in NGOs that are US Americans, see the flaws of the United States very clearly.

But also, you can't replace... There's nothing like the patriotism that people feel when they spend their lives outside of their native country. So I think in general, there's, you know, morale in the Foreign Service people in the Foreign Service, excuse me, are very patriotic. And it's great to be around.

You know, we do big Fourth of July parties. We do, you know, Thanksgiving celebrations together, celebrate all the American holidays. Even people who aren't actually diplomats serve that role and are diplomats to the people around them. But it's a very difficult, like you said, you know, there's a lot going on right now.

And it's challenging. I think that as expatriates, people try to represent their country, to represent the good parts of their country. And in general, the people in the countries that we live in understand that just because they disagree with policies, or they disagree with actions, that doesn't mean that your government or your NGO or your business are the people behind those.

In general, I think that people are very, very accepting of Americans and of foreigners in general around the world. It's making that one-on-one connection and, you know, not seeing somebody for just where they come from. Yeah, it's been my, I mean, you've traveled much more extensively than I have, but it's been my experience has been remarkable and I've been definitely just have been made to feel welcome.

I often feel more comfortable in other countries than I do in my own homeland. And it's kind of... Yeah, it's funny. I mean, there's some of it is you almost, you feel bad, at least I feel bad about it sometimes, but you treat it like a VIP. And so sometimes you feel bad about it and sometimes you're just like, yeah, it's nice, nice to be treated as a VIP.

And then you do try to do a good job to represent your homeland in a positive way. Yeah, there's, you know, a lot of people suffer from the fishbowl effect. And so they, when they're living in foreign countries, they're very uncomfortable with the fact that they are constantly, they have to be constantly on and that people listen very carefully to what they say and watch what they do and, you know, will generalize their actions to the entire country.

But I think you can look at it in a positive light. And if, you know, you're willing to see yourself as a representative of your country, no matter where you are in the world. And sometimes that might mean, you know, watching how much you drink or being more careful about what you say in public and being sure that you represent your country and your organization in a positive light.

You know, I think it's kind of freeing to be able to break people out of whatever stereotypes they might have about Americans by having them get to know me. Do you maintain a travel blog or anything like that that you'd like people to check out? I don't, but if I ever start one, I will go to the show notes and I will post the URL.

Awesome. Well, Sarah, I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing your personal experience. It's definitely refreshing to talk to you. And I think it really is an opportunity that people should consider for how to design a lifestyle. Many people crave some adventure in their life and it doesn't get much more adventurous than moving to a new place every two or three years.

And why not get paid to do it and build some financial reserves along the way? Any final words of wisdom or closing remarks that you'd like to make? No. If anyone has questions or is interested in getting started and working in either NGO or government careers overseas, they should feel free to contact me.

They can find me on the Radical Personal Finance Facebook group and also the RPF Irregulars page. Perfect. Thanks so much, Sarah. My hope is that you can use this interview as inspiration for you to sketch out the plan that's appropriate to you and then move intentionally on it. As you can hear, Sarah and her husband, they didn't do it by accident.

It was an intentional plan, carefully crafted, and it seems to be fitting exactly what they were looking to do. Now, you figure out what's right for you, but use this as inspiration to know that you don't necessarily have to wait. You don't necessarily have to travel the world as a broke tourist.

Hey, if you want to go travel the world as a broke tourist, that's cool. But if you don't want to, you can figure out another path. And there are all kinds of exciting, interesting careers, doing jobs that matter, doing work that you can care about because of the impact that it's having on the people that you're serving and be paid handsomely for it as well.

We live in an amazing time where the opportunities are massive. So thank you so much for listening. If you have an idea for a show like this or you think, "Joshua, hey, I might be a great guest," I'd be happy to hear from you. I get solicited a lot of times from people looking for guests, and I'll tell you, many of the professional guests, I turn them away at this point.

But when someone who's a listener reaches out to me and says, "Hey, I got this idea," I almost always say yes. So if you feel like you've got an interesting story to tell, you've got something you think would benefit the audience, I'm not looking for you to be world-renowned.

I'm just looking for you to have useful ideas. So that's one of the things I love about podcasting is that's very democratizing. I don't have to have whoever just is out trotting the publicity circuit promoting their book. Nothing wrong with that. I'm happy to do that when I feel strongly about it, but that's not always the goal.

I like to talk with normal people who would just like to have an opportunity to share because all of you listening have some area that you're an expert. Every single one of you is superior to me in some area, and you're superior to everyone in the show, in the audience in some area.

So if you've got an idea for a show, reach out to me. Email me, joshua@radicalpersonalfinance.com. Always happy to hear from you. Finally as we go, thank you to those of you who support the show on Patreon. That is my core foundation of financial support for the show. Yes, I do the advertisers in the beginning, but still the core foundation is you.

If you would like to support the show, if you've benefited from this content, please go to radicalpersonalfinance.com/patron. Sign up to support the show there at radicalpersonalfinance.com/patron. See you all soon. (upbeat music)