Today in radical personal finance we talk art and the work of art with writer Jeff Goines Welcome to the radical personal finance podcast. My name is Joshua sheets, and I'm your host. Thank you for being with me today This is the show where each and every day we try to break down the mysteries of life Well, at least as far as they pertain to finance and one of those mysteries is how do you make money doing something that you love?

that you really care about and How do you make a transition from something you don't love to something that you do? My guest today has done exactly that Jeff Coins is a really interesting guy. I was able to catch up with him recently at the fin con 2015 conference That was where this interview was recorded where he was a speaker and he's also written a new book on The challenge of finding work that you love and it's it's really a useful topic as it relates to personal finance The title of the book is the art of work a proven path to discovering what you are meant to do And I know this is something that many of you find yourselves challenged by any of us I should include myself in that many of us find ourselves challenged by how do we discover?

where we're best suited to spend our time and Jeff's book might be a valuable resource for you, but even better than the book today. I have the author himself So when you can know the author and you don't have to deal with just the book, it's even better So we'll get to the interview just a moment before we do right before the interview starts Let's talk about sponsors sponsor of the day.

Number one today is Patrick snow the publishing doctor We're gonna talk a lot about writing today and writing is definitely something that many of us desire to do Jeff is an expert on that. You should check out Jeff's work on writing He has lots of information lots of advice lots of tidbits for you If you would like to publish a book of your own and you would like some alternative views or probably better put Complimentary views to Jeff's work reach out to Patrick snow.

He's the publishing doctor He is an expert at guiding people through the process of publishing their own book. He is actually my personal publishing coach I hired him to work with me as I work to put together the first of the radical personal finance books Definitely been a challenge, but I'm working my way through the process little by little and Patrick has been an immense help to me Essentially basically saving me tons of time and tons of research It's a lot easier to simply go to an expert and ask an expert instead of spending hours and hours and hours and hours trying To find the answers yourselves.

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So radical personal finance comm slash why nab and with that? Let's get to the interview Jeff welcome to radical personal finance. Thanks, Joshua glad to be here So you've got quite the story and I love to profile stories like yours where people lay out a plan and just simply start pursuing the plan and Totally transform their life.

So what's your story? Well, first of all, I like that, you know, I said, hey, it's good to be here Which is like a thing that people say on the podcast when they're not actually here But we're actually really isn't this a lot better than a Skype connection? Yeah, it's great and we've got you know this you've got the the track in the background of the ambience people talking So my story is I didn't necessarily start with a plan.

I'm not sure that plans work I like what Jason freed from 37 signals now base camp, you know what he says about plans. He says plans or guesses They're good insofar as they kind of point you in a direction and you start moving and realize Okay, none of this is working out the way that I thought it would right?

So I guess in a way my career was was that it was sort of a you know Something I scribbled on a napkin and then started moving and threw the napkin away in college I Grew up in Illinois outside of Chicago went to college in Illinois. I didn't know what I was gonna do.

So I studied Spanish That's a very high high productive financially career, isn't it? Well, I mean to sort of it could be but to complement it with an even more practical Field I decided to double major in Spanish and religion just because I was interested in it and and so yeah, I just wanted to travel and do fun things and so I went to Spain for a semester and that really opened up my eyes to the world and Changed the way I looked at my own life and and also the things that I was doing and realized I want to do something That has a global impact right that isn't just you know, something in my my hometown or whatever So I graduated college and so I've got this Spanish degree I've got a degree in religion for you know what I'm not sure and I decide to build on this Opus that I'm going to Travel the country for a year with a band and play music Because you studied music at college, too, right?

No, cuz none of these things are related at all and I've always wanted to be a musician I was a musician for you know, ever since I was 16 years old. I played guitar But I always wanted to you know, do the professional musician thing, which I think is you know Something that every musician wants to do I guess and so I did it for a year and that year I I was the band leader.

I was the guitarist. I drove our van and Once a week, I would write an update on a website. I mean, this is probably a decade ago, right? And we didn't call it a blog But that was just about to become a thing and and I would write this update of here's what we did Here's where we went.

Here's what North Dakota is like, you know or whatever and that was My most exciting part of my week probably I loved playing shows. It was fun It was all great But I would you know I would play for 1,200 people and I would come back to this host home this place where we were staying in somebody else's house sleeping on their couch to keep expenses down and I would you know stay up late at night writing the blog post that summarized our week and that was telling me something I didn't know what it was telling me at the time, but it but it was very telling and so I ended that year kind of finished that up and Moved to Nashville to chase a girl Got her after some after some significant struggle married her and Started I was a telemarketer then I worked for a nonprofit as a marketing director again You know, there's there's a very consistent pattern in my career And really, you know really got this job with no credentials no marketing credentials But they saw that I was a writer which meant that I spent a few semesters tutoring other students and writing because there's always something that came naturally to me and So this guy this the executive director of the nonprofit said hey, I see that you're a writer.

I'm like I am Okay, and so I I got that job and did that for seven years first as a Marketing director then as a communications director and there I learned all about online marketing because we had no money as a nonprofit So I'm like, well, what's free? Well, the internet is kind of free and blogging which had become a thing is free And so I found all of these free new media tools where we could connect with an audience and get them to you know donate or participate in our programs and that's how I found out about online marketing and As you know as that was sort of winding down as I realized I'm not sure I want to keep doing this I was approaching my 30s and Then all this all these memories of writing and you know when I when I was at the band I started doing this thing that Parker Palmer calls listening to your life He says before you can tell your life what you want to do with it, which is the plan approach you need to listen to your life telling you who you are and So I I realized when I was listening to my life the thing that it was telling me was I'm a writer And so that's you know, so that's how all these things sort of collided it, you know By the time I was 30 I became a full-time writer and what's interesting is You've fully taken on that identity even with your branding.

I mean you call yourself Jeff Goins writer Yeah, so I guess you listened and followed through. Did you feel like a Fake when you started doing that? Yeah, I did. In fact, I wasn't I didn't even want to call myself a writer I had a conversation with a friend of mine around this time that I was kind of exploring I think we these milestones in our lives where we start to get an itch We're trying to find a satisfying way of scratching that itch and maybe the itches I'm tired of being in debt right or the itches.

I'm tired of working a job that I hate right for me It was neither of those things. It was I'm worried that in ten years I'm gonna have a midlife crisis because what I'm doing is good enough And I think the really dangerous place that we find ourselves in careers these days is Not that you hate your job and you have to get out of it if you hate your job That's actually really good news because you know right to do something, right?

If you kind of sort of maybe like it it's like being in a in like a not great relationship, right? It's it's not a good place to be because you're gonna settle for the status quo And it will slowly kill you and I feared getting to the end of my life and going man I missed it or getting to 40.

It was really my fear Not getting to 40, but you know getting to 40 and realizing I I settled, you know And I'm I was in my late 20s. I felt like there's still some risk in me. I can still do something new What do I really want to do?

And I had a conversation with my friend Paul at the time and he said what's your dream? And I realized how much life had beat me up that I that I couldn't answer that question I said I don't have a dream and He said really because I would have thought your dream was to be a writer And I think it's interesting that that the people around us often notice things in us that we fail to see ourselves That's been my experience.

And so I Said yeah, I guess you're right. My my dream is to be a writer someday And he looked at me and he said Jeff you don't have to want to be a writer you are a writer you just need to write and This this was sort of an epiphany for me because I was doing the writing on the side and I was thinking about it and dreaming About it and hoping for it But I had this idea that like there was like a writer title with a capital W And I didn't know what you had to do to earn that title, but I didn't feel like I was worthy of it Right, and I thought what if what if you just call yourself a writer and then start writing and for me I learned an important lesson that activity follows identity that before you can do something I think you have to become someone and if you don't believe that thing about yourself I don't think you're ever going to do your best work.

I Remember reading an essay years ago by Mark Ford who at that time was writing under the pen name Michael Masterson And a publication called early to rise and he wrote about writing He was a writer for years and he talked about he had had that same dream as a young man And I believe if my details are right He was 17 years old and he was in school and his dad was coaching him and he was saying what do you want to do?

I'm gonna be a writer his dad just simply said well, when's the last time you've written and he realized well Writers are simply people who write yeah, and you cease to become a writer when you stop to write Oh, you need to do is start writing. Yep, and it's interesting because we're here at FinCon 2015 and yesterday in Carl Richards talk he made the point about Artists that very few of us identify as artists, right?

Once we're older he said he does this you go into a kindergarten classroom and ask the kids Well, how many of you artists and every one of them raises their hands? Well, they're all artists and many years later that's been beaten out of us and very few of us I think he said seven people in the room raised their hand as oh, I'm an artist yeah, and it's so fascinating because you have to believe that you are something and then do And then or I'm not sure if you just made a statement Maybe I disagree with you or you sometimes you do and then over time you start to believe Yeah, I don't know if it's one or the other but just doing seems to be the core the core function Yeah, it is interesting to me.

And I think it's you can call yourself a writer and if you're not writing you're not a writer You're a liar And I also think you can do do do do and never believe Something about yourself see that and that sabotages the work to like we we probably Have met people at this conference who've done that, you know, I mean people all the time, you know They got a blog and there's like a million people that read that blog and they go Oh, that's just something that I do right?

Like are you kidding me? Like that's amazing And you don't have I mean, I think it's sort of this false humility But I think it actually affects the work that we do Having a healthy confidence and this is who I am. This is what I do is powerful going back to the kidner Kindergarten, er, you know story.

I have a three-year-old so go before that and he is like the most confident person I know right cuz he cuz cuz life hasn't taught him shame Yeah I remember when he was like one His name's Aiden and the music turned on one day and we never showed him how to dance Right because mostly because I do not know actually how to show anybody how to do that My wife could but you know one day the music comes on.

We're just hanging around the house We're I think maybe we're even like watching a movie and the credits rolled and they start playing this You know kind of dancey music. He just starts dancing his hips start moving and I thought wow, isn't it interesting? That we don't we're born knowing how to dance, but we have to learn shame Yeah, and and if my son were here and you asked him, who are you?

What's your name? What do you do? You know all these kind of questions that we ask people he would probably say I'm Superman If you know cuz he wears all these superhero and he's like totally serious about it, and I just want more of that I want to go.

Hey, I am this thing and yeah I'm gonna go like push this down when Aiden just looks at me really hard and I go buddy. What are you doing? He was these are my lasers He's expecting me to fall down. Okay. Well, of course, I've got a But you know like I mean, he's not perfect if I throw, you know, green balls at him he falls down He knows that kryptonite kills Superman.

So there's that So at this point, I know that you built over the last few years a pretty effective business Yeah, but I'd like to talk to you about that time of transition What was it like and I know the inside scoop that at this point you left your job to build your business What was the process to that in your mind and in your life?

I? We use this term called You know make the leap like this is the thing that people say in these kind of conversations and I hate that terminology because I think it creates An idea that is false Creates this idea that if you work up enough momentum and you wait and wait and wait and sketch out your plan and you plan Perfectly that there's this moment where you know, and then you do it and everything's great and I don't believe in that moment I don't think it's it exists and it's not what I did You know for seven years, you know Most of my 20s I dreamt of being a writer doing something because I would have you know Like I thought in the in the back of my mind, maybe I could do this someday But I wasn't very serious about it, which is why the identity thing is so important to me I felt like I was half-heartedly Doing the doing part of it and it wasn't working And so when I had a conversation with Paul because you're a writer You just need to write and I I had done enough of the other thing where I was playing the amateur Where where I was faking it and not making it.

I was like, well, maybe I need to become this Maybe I actually need to get serious. What would change if I woke up every day and thought like a writer What a professional writers actually do as your dad said they get up and write every day That's the only thing that I knew right and and I couldn't control the outcome, but I could control the process so I started a blog, you know my eighth and you know and a whole slew of failed blogs and And I started a blog and I started writing every day and there was this discipline to the process I wrote every single day for a year on that blog publishing words every every time and That year I grew an audience because because I had failed a lot of different ways I figured out ways to not do it.

But also I think because there was this Confidence not like I knew what I was doing but just like hey I'm just gonna put this out here. And so the first year built an audience of about 10,000 email subscribers And I remember coming to a conference like this and somebody saying in passing Oh, you know, you've got like a six-figure business there and I was like no no, it's more like a three-figure business I think I made like a hundred bucks last year somehow I don't even know, you know But I had this community of people and I didn't know what to do with it and so I did the thing that people talk about doing, you know, I surveyed people and found out what they wanted and I was I wasn't really taking it seriously until my wife and I got pregnant and And we're getting ready to have our son Aidan and I was like, oh, yeah like got it Got you know working for this nonprofit.

This is not gonna cut it My wife wanted to stay home, but definitely wasn't gonna cut it And so I had this I was forced to make money my son forced me into entrepreneurship I really would have be here if it weren't for him You know, he'll get to go, you know when he asked me for money later on I'm sure he'll remind me of that.

I would imagine so we'll make sure Yeah, I know you said I you don't want to buy me a car but What's it look, you know, like let's give a little credit where credit's due Take my commissions now So the first year of that was really about building the audience not as if this was planned at all It wasn't but I was trying to be intentional with what I had what so what can I do?

Well, I know I need to build an audience and then I know if I'm gonna sell something that audience I can just like think of what I want Them to buy or I could ask them so I asked them and everybody said well we wanted you know we would buy an e-book from you about how to become a writer and so I sold this e-book for like three dollars and Replaced and then tripled both my income and my wife's income in that second year and so what we had done was we didn't take a lead because it took two years of intentional not quite knowing what to do but taking the next step kind of effort and At the end of that year my wife was like when are you gonna quit your job?

And I was like that wasn't even the plan Like I was just trying to make sure you could stay home and be a mom for a while because that's what you wanted to Do but all of a sudden this thing became so much bigger than we realized and so I went to my boss who was really A mentor of mine.

It wasn't this like stuck in a cubicle kind of thing And I'm you know, really big on stressing if you don't hate your job if you feel like you're safe That might be a really bad place to be because that's where I was And so I went to my boss and I said, you know Here's what happened and I'm thinking it might be time to move on And I'm just really worried that I might disappoint you that you've invested in me and mentored me for seven years You hired me when nobody else would hire me when when TJ Maxx told me they wouldn't hire me because I didn't have the right Qualifications you hired me.

So thank you and he called me a writer before I was calling myself one and he said Jeff I'm not disappointed. I'm really proud and in fact, I've been waiting for this Like I've been seeing this coming for a while. I think instead of saying take a leap We need to replace that terminology with build a bridge because that's what we did and it took two years Wow You've written since that time ebooks books what's been the theme of your writing over this career?

Well online, I think I'm known sort of as a writer's writer and I write about the writing process and that's great. I love that with the books and I teach online courses and speak and And you know kind of do those three things online courses speaking and writing Books and blog posts and stuff.

I think really what it comes down to is kind of this conversation that we're having here I like talking about Who you are and and what you're going to do in the world And so I'm 32 now and and I'm doing this this thing that I was doing at 27 I'm still listening to my life and I'm going what are the themes that are emerging?

What do I continue to learn? so if when I was 12, I was drawing pictures of Garfield and when I was 16, I was writing emo love songs and you know when I was 22 I was sleeping on a friend's couch, you know as a telemarketer Obviously, there's good jobs and there's bad jobs and there's oh crap I didn't I shouldn't have done that with my life, you know moments But what are the things that I've had in common in different seasons of my life that have continued to emerge?

I think it comes down to I like connecting with people I like creating and I like not just creating for the sake of creating but creating stuff That's going to motivate people to change their lives in some way. And so when I'm writing about writing I'm really writing about no you're a writer and what can you do today?

You can get up and live into that identity and when you know I was writing my last book the art of work, which was sort of the grander question How do you find a calling or a purpose in your life? Same kind of thing like how do I creatively inspire people to figure out who they are and therefore discover what they want to do In writing about writing, which I know has The art of work went a little bit beyond just writing but or went a lot beyond writing But in writing about writing have you ever wondered or felt like you're in some ways Almost running a Ponzi scheme Yeah, yeah, of course I get I get those emails Yeah, writing about writing podcasting about podcasting blogging about blogging, you know, we all kind of sneer at these things I What I get I get really worried about is when somebody reads my blog and then they go like replicate that because they think that's The path like oh like he wrote about writing and now he's writing other books and doing other things and that that's what you have to do That's that's probably not the right idea It's the right idea for me because right before I started my blog again This was like the eighth attempt at trying to not suck at this thing I when I did start my blog when I started going to write a commas just because I couldn't I couldn't buy Jeff goings Calm so it's like well like I'm gonna write like I'm gonna write stuff.

So like goings writer. That sounds kind of cool and So first I started writing about leadership and I tried to be like Michael Hyatt and then second I wrote about marketing and I tried to be like Seth Godin and these things didn't work They just didn't work and so I would go to work as a Communications director and what I did all day long was coach writers and and I would work with our marketing team to create collateral That we would send out to people and I really liked that.

I really liked helping people learn how to write better and Share their messages and connect them with an audience and and so I thought well like maybe I'll just share a little bit about this On my blog and when I did that it immediately Connected with people when I'd write like the Seth Godin s, you know vague sort of, you know intuitive Like what is he saying?

And I feel like I just got incepted kind of thing You know, I would try to write that be very mysterious and nobody would read it and then I would I would write this thing about Writing. Hey, here's four steps to finding your writing voice or something that felt very rudimentary to me like obvious And people loved it like, you know I mean like four people and then that four became seven and twelve and so on but seriously like Nobody read this and then you know, two people goes hey, I like this and I go hey, maybe there's something to that I think there's two things that helped me process this one.

I love what Derek Sivers says about this He says what's obvious to you is amazing to others All right This idea that you can just go find your passion and do whatever you want in the world and live on a beach and everything Will be great. I Don't think is a good idea and I don't think it's it's reality right?

But but you know more importantly on the good ideas side I don't think it's actually the path to fulfilling work I think the path to fulfilling work is yeah finding what you're passionate about What do you love doing then? How does that intersect with a skill that you have probably something that's obvious to you?

That's amazing to other people that you take for granted. Oh, that's just something that I do And then the third intersection is what do people want? Like what do they actually need? How can you help people and I think when you satisfy those three areas skill passion and demand you I mean That's a pretty good definition of a calling right?

And so when I started writing about writing that was one of those Intersections since I found other intersections, but I really really like it I like coaching and encouraging other writers and creatives and you know The business reaches sort of expanding But yeah, I I get the Ponzi scheme thing But but no, I find it really fulfilling because I think everybody has a voice Everybody has a message worth sharing and in many ways I get more fulfillment From propping up those people and helping them get the attention there They're writing deserves then just you know me getting another email subscriber on my list.

I Asked the question just because I think it is a common. Yeah, you know something that some people look at totally in every area There's a need for There's a white there may be a white space opportunity And so when who has an eevee strunk right wrote the elements of style and sits down and writes this It probably did seem very obvious to him and he made I hope a little bit of money selling this book That's become a classic but it filled a need but the next person that comes along the need was already met Yeah, and so there's one Michael Hyatt.

There's one Seth Godin, but there's one Jeff Goins and he was a great writer He was a literary guy. And so I look at people who do this, right? I mean Stephen King did on writing right Steven Pressfield You know wrote the the War of Art You know sort more like writers who you know, not dead guys writers who are alive today and Lamont bird by bird and I think the challenge there is To not get stuck in that to continue to do creative work while you're telling people how to do creative work And I will say it's a challenge because there's that line of writers who want to get better You know that are knocking at my door never gets smaller.

It always gets longer There's always more people want to share their message and I love that But I realized I can only give what I have to give what I'm getting and so if I'm giving giving giving and I'm not Actually doing what I feel is important interesting creative work then that well is gonna run dry.

And so I don't feel like a fake necessarily but I but I see like the tendency to like be talking about the thing that I'm no longer doing and that is Scary in a good way. I think that fear forces me to continue to create art hopefully and Stay creative and continue to kind of hone my craft.

Have there been any changes in your character as an entrepreneur? versus previously as an employee Character You know, I don't know I don't know if this you know sort of satisfies that field of character, but I think that's um, I Think that when I was an employee I did have this I was never entrepreneurial like I wasn't I never I was never entrepreneurial in the sense that like I cared about making money In fact, I kind of cared about the opposite of it So I'm touring this, you know with this band for a year and I made like eight thousand dollars that year And I was like, this is great, you know, like I get I have a place to sleep I have food to eat and and I get to you know Live my dream at the time which was play music and I moved in Nashville and I got a raise I made twelve thousand dollars that first year sleeping on a couch eating peanut butter and jelly walking to Walmart once a week to get my bare necessities walking to Circuit City to check my email because I didn't have a computer or a cell phone or anything And I was okay with that but what I realized what I've since realized is an entrepreneur is somebody who creates opportunities not only for themselves but for other people and since starting a business and I just sort of fell into This in the sense that I liked the freedom of working for myself But you know the bottom line stuff the financial side of it I was oblivious to it because I always had a job.

I was always very frugal So I never I was never in debt never did any of that stuff the one time my wife and I bought a car cuz mine Mine, you know broke down and we had we were paying for it. We're paying it off I was like we got a we got to pay that down very quickly and get rid of that Because I was just really afraid of owing people things.

I didn't need to have an abundance I was just was that from your parents influence or just you or what what contributed to that? That's a good question When I was a kid at dinnertime The phone would ring and my parents would say don't answer that because those are bill collectors and that like, you know Ten years old I knew what a bill collector was and so I just knew that it was like, you know So we had lots, you know, so there was debt and you know, my parents did the best that they could but they struggled and I saw that struggle and it didn't make me want to go make a million dollars It just made me go I'm gonna count every penny and I was the I was the eldest sibling and I think there's some of that in the birth order But I was just like I'm not going to like I'm always gonna make sure I've got some security So even when I was making $12,000 a year, I had security, you know, I was saving money every month And and so when I became an entrepreneur, I realized looking back now I go Oh when I was an employee, I was very entitled.

I wasn't planning for the worst-case scenario. I was hoping for the best I was being frugal as best I could but I wasn't creating opportunities for other people. It was all about me One of the most exciting things about running a business right now I think is not being a solopreneur which which I don't fit that category anymore.

It's building a business That's big enough that it can employ me and other people probably not hundreds or thousands of people But a few people whose lives I get to impact because for years now I've been impacting the lives of our customers my readers that that sort of thing now I thought now what I'm really excited about is impacting the lives of people on my team And that was something I never thought about, you know in my 20s I just thought I just need a paycheck to take care of myself I think being an entrepreneur can not always but Certainly can make you less selfish and more generous and that's what it's done for me What caught you started as a solopreneur just writing working on your blog kind of doing your thing What encouraged you or caused you to make this switch from solopreneur to business owner?

Just laziness, I guess like I did It's ironic because I'm like, I don't want I don't want to do these things I'm gonna hire people to do these things and In effect, I'm going to create more work for myself because I'm gonna have to hire these people and show them how to do this Or manage them or you know, like now I've got to manage people and do these things and in the short term It's more work, right?

Because you've now got these people that you have to show how to do things that are not gonna do it perfectly And you still have to make sure these things get done and instead of just doing it yourself like hair do this thing and I'll Show you how to do it and it takes more time and it's more exhausting I tried it once about a year ago and it didn't work very well.

And so I was like, ah, like I'm not gonna do that I'm just gonna you know, do the solopreneur outsource to VA kind of things and then I Tried it again this year and I really kind of organized things and said, okay like what does management look like? what does this look like and we started building systems and And now it's working a lot better mostly because I invested in people earlier on but what motivated it was I Initially thought well, I don't want to do this.

I'm gonna get people to do it now. I As objectively as I can I look at what I'm doing and what our organization is trying to do and I go is does it really? serve our organizational goals For me to check my email two hours a day Which I could do if I you know when I get 500 emails in a day Is that really the best use of my gifts if I were my own boss, which sadly I am I love what Seth Godin says about this.

He says the world's worst boss is you right? You know and I was like, oh man, I've got a terrible boss He's such a jerk You know like when when I Realize that it's it challenged me and And it changed, you know my perspective and so now it's I'm thinking well What what my best use of time if I were my own boss is to hey Jeff write something create something Spend some time, you know thinking of how we can grow the business Like I sort of serve this creative role in in the organization not not managing people I've never been good at that not like watching the bottom line That's important and I and I have to be aware of kind of the like the big numbers But like looking at spreadsheets, you know for hours every month is not a good use of my time because I'm not good at that And so it was it went from being probably this sort of selfish lazy I don't want to do that to going, you know, like if I were working for me, I you know manager Jeff would say to employee Jeff you shouldn't be doing that and And I realized okay, I'm gonna get people around me who can do that because I could probably figure it out and do it Okay, but I just I'm very uncomfortable Doing things that aren't the the best thing that I should be doing right now This is one of the aspects of your work that I've admired because I've been aware of Your work for a while and I've seen you make this transition from well I put stuff out on a blog and I just kind of do this solopreneur thing and then over the last couple years I've watched your business just From the outside.

I haven't reviewed your tax returns, but from the outside it seems to have transformed from just me kind of putting some things out on the internet into a business and the In many ways I see you everywhere now versus before it was just like oh this this small community of people And that's the I guess the stage right where I'm at when I started radical personal finance Almost a year and a half ago at that time.

I was just burned out I just wanted to do my dinky little podcast Yeah, you know sit down in front of a microphone in my bedroom and just like put it out there and just do that Yeah, I didn't want to do anything else But it took about six months for me to decompress and just kind of relax and then I'm now I've realized that I Have to I have a responsibility to make a change and instead of just doing my dinky little solo printer podcast I need to build a business Behind it.

And so that's a major focus what were the Biggest influence what have been the biggest influences for you over the past a couple years in making this transition What's been the biggest source of encouragement for you? Well, we mentioned Michael Hyatt He's a friend of mine and really a mentor first from afar and now closer up and he said this thing To me recently.

He said because I cuz he's way into the team-building thing, you know was CEO of a publishing company We had 500 people under him at one point so he gets it You know He knows how to build big businesses and I kind of assumed that when he got out of that He would do the solar pure thing and I asked him about that and he said yeah I did it for like a month and then like I realized I didn't want to do these things and it wasn't a good use of my time Not in some sort of arrogant way, but and I only have so many hours in a day How do I want to spend them?

And if I'm gonna you know help people with that time? What is the the the best, you know bang for my buck and he said this he said if Your dream is so small that you don't need a team to accomplish it Then you need to dream bigger you need to have a vision that exceeds your resources and then go find Those resources.

I remember reading a story about Henry Ford where They were sort of they were talking about the actual timeline for how You know He created an efficient automobile and and everybody kind of credits Henry Ford for creating the assembly line or you know sort of maximizing that anyway and What they don't realize at least based on on this Harvard Business Review story is that what came first was the vision Henry Ford saw?

lots of Expensive automobiles that you know, the upper class could afford but nobody else could afford and he said this is not right We need to create Automobiles at this price point so that anybody in the middle class can afford them and people thought he was crazy They thought you're never gonna be able to get those resources, you know steel is expensive.

This is expensive, etc So, you know, you're you're just this is what it's kind of cost and he said no This is our price point and we're going to have to build a system that allows us to grab those resources In a in an efficient cost-effective way to get that outcome and I think a lot of times we go.

What are my resources? I'll find whatever resources and I'll try to do something with that and Innovation is always a process of looking ahead saying what's my vision? What do I want to see and then figuring out a path to get there? That's I think that's the only way innovation happens something new innovation means creating something new So, you know those things inspire me way more than just hey quit your job and work You know a few hours a week and live on a beach or whatever I think that work for me is something that's really fulfilling not in a weird workaholic way but like every day I get up and I go to work and I kiss my kid and I think about my wife and And my son Aiden says, you know, daddy don't go and we've gotten really good about talking about this for a while I sort of felt guilty and I was like because I can control my own schedule Maybe I should spend more time at home and you know, I'm home a lot But and I mean randomly take days off when we go to the zoo But we started talking about this as a family and my wife Ashley does a really good job of this.

She goes nobody Daddy has to go to work because you know, we have a house so we have things to pay for but you know because you know, there's also you know people out there that you know your dad is influencing and impacting and and that's what he does and and we talk about it a lot not as like Work is a bad thing to be avoided and leisure is a good thing that we need to maximize more time with And so finding work that is inspiring not always easy and not always fun I mean, it's hard work, but but doing that and seeing other people who think like that so, you know Mike Hyde is an example of that where their work is a means to Achieve their purpose to make an impact on the world I find that really inspiring and try to integrate that into the work that I do Physically where and how do you work?

I have an office in downtown Franklin We live in Franklin, Tennessee outside of Nashville And so I get in the car and I drive like a mile to work and it's a little Office without a window Above this cafe off of Main Street and the rent is really affordable for a long time I just worked in my house but there's something really good for me about Going from one place to another, you know I like Separation from work and the rest of life not because I the two don't really integrate because I think they do But because if I don't have that separation that one mile quick five minute drive To sort of reset my brain from you know playing Star Wars fighting, you know light everything's a lightsaber with my son in the morning - I gotta send him You know send an email or something Resetting my brain into a different mode that drive helps accomplish that and then coming back even more important importantly at the end of the day I go Look like I need to stop thinking about work and be present to my family and it forces me to be present to both things That I'm doing So I like the physicality of having to leave home and it could be like walking across my yard or going to a certain part In my house, which it was for a while, but now You know I just I drive to this office and I've got a Desk and I just bring my laptop there and lots of lots of books and papers and things and that's where I do my work Are you creative on a schedule or do you write when creativity strikes randomly?

I? both You know, there's that that old quote that I only write when I'm inspired. I just happen to be inspired every morning at 9 a.m And and there's that there's days where I don't want to create and I go well, it's your job, man So get up and do it anyway, and I force myself to sit down and miraculously something comes the challenge is because there's lots of interesting science about this that We get our best ideas when we're not ready to capture them, right?

And I read some studies about this why when your brain is doing another activity It can be more creative and when you're under stress and anxiety, you don't do your best creative work now We've all had deadlines and stress and you know We kind of pull a rabbit out of her hat but typically you do your best work when you don't have to do it Which is kind of interesting Or at least you get your best Creative ideas in those settings and that's why you get ideas in the shower all the time or when you're driving a song lyric will come Or whatever.

So what I do is I used to go. Oh that idea will come back later. It never comes back I forget I go. This line was brilliant. I I'm okay with letting things go. I used to really obsess about that I feel like this was my magnum opus and I've lost it forever So I I am creative on a schedule But then once that time is over ideas come through come to me throughout the day.

So I just capture them I just usually pull up my phone or a notepad and I write them down like one or two words in Evernote I like using Evernote because I put on my phone and then the next morning I wake up I pull up Evernote and I go oh, yeah, I'm gonna write about that and And I use what's called what I call a three bucket system.

I've got ideas Drafts and then published pieces so I you know, the first bucket is throughout the day I capture stuff on Evernote and put it into an idea bucket and then the next morning I get up during my scheduled time To write I take one of those ideas and I draft them into something That's very rough Then I put and then I put it into a folder and I leave it there And then I pull something out of that folder something older and I edit it and get it ready to publish And so when I'm constantly filling those buckets, I feel like I'm you know doing my work What do you write in software or what do you write it when I'm blogging I write in by word which is don't you know a little minimalist blogging software tool and And then when I'm writing for for a book, I usually write in Scrivener I wish I had better systems for this because I'm messy There's post-it notes and all kinds of things and I'm a very like when whatever I publish I want it to be very neat right, but my process is is pretty messy But those are two tools that I use consistently awesome final question if you were Speaking to somebody who's in a similar situation.

You've given a lot of advice Already within this context, but you're going back and you're speaking to someone who's in a similar situation as you Life's going okay, but I would like to explore something else What's your coaching advice for them of how to pursue that in an intelligent way?

So, you know going back to that little matrix that we talked about passion skill demand I think it's helpful to ask those three questions. What do I love? What am I good at? What do people want and and assume that you don't know the answers to any of those questions, right?

Because I think we we like I thought man if I could just play music for a year This would be amazing and I didn't hate it. And I think there's this whole idea that once something becomes your job It's not fun anymore It's still fun, but it does change right it becomes work And I'm not one of those people that think you know You can't take your passion and turn it into work But it changes and I think there are very few things that there are very few passions that once they become jobs There's the same level of fulfillment Surprisingly writing has been that thing for me.

It's just that fun and and that fulfilling so So for me what that what I would say is find something that you are good at that you enjoy doing and do it for six months and See if there's resonance see if there's connection So, you know with a blog and I had to do this seven different times before I could find something that stuck Try an idea be fully committed to it Write every day or create every day or do that craft every day and put it out there in some way blogging is great Podcasting is great because you put it on the internet people like magically find it You have to like go knock on a bunch of doors, right?

It's good to knock on doors, too But it's you know random people go Harry I found this thing you're like really like I thought nobody was listening But nobody was paying attention and I think practices is good Practicing in public is even better because you're going to quickly see what resonates when I'm delivering a talk as a speaker which is something that I never thought I would do and I Volunteered to speak for free at this local event because I wanted to see could I do speaking should I do speaking and when I spoke?

Very poorly in front of this audience of people but did the best that I could at the time And people came up to me afterwards and said good job I wanted to shake my hand and you know gave me a standing ovation, which was weird It like I realized there's resonance here This is something that I can pursue as opposed to spending a year Preparing to do that thing and then going oh this wasn't what I was supposed to be doing So I think finding something and putting it out there and seeing how it connects with people is the best way to figure out Am I on the right track and if not do something else, but really commit to it awesome advice Websites books courses share with the audience where they can find you and where they can connect with your work and the different Products and pieces that you have available for them.

Yeah. Thanks. So the best place to go is my blog goins writer calm That's like coins because we're at FinCon but with a G or as they reminded me in middle school And I you know, I hope this is a pg-13 podcast Groins without the R, but you know, sorry for that word picture, but you'll you know, you won't be able to forget that If you go to goinswriter.com You can sign up for my email newsletter, which we send out once a week get a bunch of tips on writing creativity Business and you'll get the first two chapters of my new book the art of work for free.

Awesome Jeff. Thanks for coming on Thanks, Joshua Here's my question as we go today Are you working on the process? If you hear stories like Jeff's and stories like mine stories like so many people that I bring on the show I hope you hear that. It's not a direct linear process It's a little bit here a little start little stop little step work a little bit on this work a little bit on that It's not a linear direct process But the process of doing the work can be really really fulfilling.

So get out there and do the work You can find all the information about Jeff on his website Just link in the show notes go and read some of the stuff. He's an excellent writer. You'll enjoy his books You'll enjoy who he is. What I most appreciate about Jeff is he's a very down-to-earth and accessible person He doesn't pull the facade that so many people do.

I'm mr. Bigshot. Mr. Success He's a very relatable person and and I find that personally very attractive and very useful and he's an excellent coach So check out his information link in the show notes to his websites. Thank you for listening today. I appreciate so much Thank you to each and every one of you who support the show directly on patreon Although I talk about sponsors in the beginning of the show the primary basis of the financial income for me is Through the patreon program and that's where individuals just like you sign up to support the show For a couple bucks a month or different levels and send me money directly And that's how I'm able to continue to bring you the depth and the breadth of shows That I bring you through here through the end of the year is November 5 today and through the end of the year I would love to publish for you a course For the patrons of the show and I know very clearly what I want that course to be at this point in time I want that course to be a discussion to the basic Foundational framework and I want to offer it a really low price and the way I can do that is with the support of The patreon patrons I intend to offer some very high price courses in the future some very high price services But I also want to offer low price services to help people who are just getting started and who are really struggling And so the way that I can do that is through the patreon program So I've set on the milestone goals if we can get the income for the show to four thousand dollars a month from you the patrons I will create that course and that course I will provide it free to all of the patrons of the show and that'll allow people in the future to be able to sign up for Sign up for a patreon program for a buck or five bucks and have access to that course So, please let's try to get to four thousand bucks by the end of the year so I can launch that in January Go to radical personal finance comm slash patron radical personal finance comm slash patron Hey parents join the LA Kings on Saturday, November 25th for an unforgettable kids day presented by Pear Deck family fun Giveaways and exciting Kings hockey awaits get your tickets now at LA Kings comm slash promotions and create lasting memories with your little ones