Today on Radical Personal Finance, we're going to wander into an area where few people dare to tread, the world of rare coins and rare money and numismatics. How can you invest both for fundamental value but also for collector value and historical value, what we call numismatics? Today I have an expert on the show.

His name is Brian Norris and he is an incredible guy and an expert numismatist. Welcome to the Radical Personal Finance podcast. My name is Joshua Sheets and I'm your host. Thank you for being with me today. Today's going to be fun. I've never heard this talked about on a mainstream personal finance discussion.

I've never even heard the subject of numismatics talked about even on kind of far out fringe podcasts or things like that. And I've never had the opportunity to speak with such an expert. Sit back, relax and enjoy a discussion of rare and ancient coins and money as part of your portfolio.

I first met Brian Norris. I didn't actually know him, but this was an interview I did at Podcast Movement. He came to the Radical Personal Finance breakfast meetup which I hosted there in Houston – excuse me, in Fort Worth when I was out there a little while ago for the Podcast Movement conference.

And he came to it and he didn't know anything about me or Radical Personal Finance. He was just browsing Twitter and came across the hashtag and saw my invitation and decided to come down and I'm really glad he did. We talked for a while over breakfast and then I immediately invited him on the show and that morning he came on.

It was a very, very cool experience. I'm going to get right to the interview, but enjoy this one. I hope you learned as much as I did. Brian, welcome to Radical Personal Finance. I appreciate you being with me today. Glad to be here. Thanks for the invite. I am glad to have met you here at Podcast Movement because the subject of your expertise is something that I've been wanting to bring on to the show.

It's a discussion of numismatics, especially collectibles, collectible coins and other artifacts of money. Give us just a quick introduction. Who are you professionally and what is numismatics? It's an unusual word for many people to hear. It is. Well, my name is Brian Norris. I'm a specialist in world coins and world banknotes.

I started studying ancient coins and that led into the more modern stuff and the world currencies. As far as the study of numismatics goes, everyone has kind of a different definition of that. But basically, if you're a historian or a scientist that studies the minting of coins, their process, their preservation, all of those things is encompassed in the study of numismatics.

It's an interest for me, but I'm ignorant in it. I think the study of precious metals and coins is interesting. I'm more involved. I own some bullion coins, some gold bullion coins and some silver bullion coins. But I've never gotten into the more valuable types of artifacts. Frankly, it just scares me silly.

Let's say I have a coin and I have a gold coin. It's basically one ounce of gold. Well, it's pretty easy for me to feel, as long as I'm confident of its genuine nature, it's pretty easy for me to ascribe a price to it. I can go online. I can check the spot price of gold.

I can figure in whatever the dealer fees are on the bid and the ask spread for the purchase or sale of that coin. I might be able to figure out the premium, which with bullion coins, there's usually a little bit of a difference, whether it's a Krugerrand or a Maple Leaf or an American Eagle or what year or whatnot.

But when you start getting into a Spanish doubloon, I'm a little uncomfortable. How did you get interested in the subject originally? Well, on a personal note, I wanted to do this full time. I came from a different background entirely, and I wanted to do something that was unique and gave back to people.

And so I knew I had to be valuable to do that. And so I thought, "Okay, well, these guys with all their US coins and their US old collectible dollars and stuff, they don't need me. So how can I make myself usable as an asset to them?" And so I realized that these old school coin dealers and historians, museum people, they didn't know a thing about it.

And it was all out there. You've got, as an example, you've got, and I'm going to swing back around so this totally makes sense. I have a tendency to go off on tangents. You're a historian. Of course you do. All right, so I've heard different numbers on this, but I'm not sure which one's correct, but I know it's happening.

And the numbers are something like 2,000 to 5,000 World War II veterans dying every day. Wow. I'm not sure if that's accurate or not. I know they're dying every day. Right. And every one of those guys has a pocket full of stuff that he picked up out of the mud when he was coming back from the war.

And that generation also had it instilled in them to save. Have you ever seen those little collectible books where you pop in a penny or a nickel? Yes. Those were invented in the Depression. And that tells you a little bit about the generation that came out of that time period.

They were the type where every penny counted. And that's why so many collections now are coming to light. So going back to the original question, you're wanting to know for you and for your listeners, how do you know the difference between something that's really rare and something that's not?

I think that was the original question, right? Right. Good. I'm on track. That plus also how you got involved in the business. How I got involved. Keep going with how you know something's rare. Well, how you know something's rare is based on three things. And I think we talked about this this morning.

And this is just some advice that an old school coin dealer gave me years ago. He said, "The way you know, it's only three things that matter. How many were made, what condition it's in, and who cares?" You have a good combination of those three things, and now you've created value in something.

And going back to value, when I decided that I wanted to do this and the way that I'm doing it, I wanted to be of value to others. And I knew that I could develop expertise in world coins and currency, specifically ancient coins. That was my first love right there, ancient coins.

To hold something in your hands that's 2,000 years old that you knew was a part of the development of currency and coins as it is today. It is really extraordinary. And you can still do it. And within reason. You would think that a 2,000-year-old coin would cost you thousands of dollars, but that's not entirely the case.

Have you ever heard of a widow's mite? Yes. What's the reference there? Yeah, well, the widow's mite is only one of two coins that circulated during ancient times. The smallest denomination that was circulating at the time. Historians have gone back and figured out this is the only coin, one of these two types of coins, is the only coin that could have been used to teach that lesson at that time.

Wow. There's a few different rulers at the time, but the one that they suspect was a coin minted by Alexander Janius. It was just a small, almost indistinguishable piece of copper. Wow. Yeah. Now, the really cool thing about those is that they find these ancient settlements. And what happens is when they go in, they've been able to piece together the history of the settlement by where and how they find the coins.

So for an example here, whenever they found an ancient Jewish settlement, then they would find often in the front door, in the baseboard of the door to the left side, there would be this little hole, a little slot. And as they came home, they would put those coins in there, the smallest coins that they had in their pocket, and save a little bit at a time.

And so they find these hordes of these things, and they're always in the same spot. That is so cool. It is cool. And then they figure it out after a while, like, "Whoa, there must be something here." We keep finding these in the door jam, and always in the same spot.

And it was like the ancient version of the modern penny jar. Wow. And that has carried on from generation to generation, that sense of saving since ancient times. That was in the Jewish culture, where they had the -- in that specific location, that was a Jewish culture? Specifically, now, this part, I'm not -- ancient Jewish coins are just an area of study entirely on their own.

I mean, you could never exhaust it. But as I understand it, it was Jewish settlements under Roman control. So it could have been passed on prior to that. But it was those coins that were minted when they were in the Roman areas that ended up being found there most of the time.

The reason I was probing is because on my list of podcast ideas, one of the subjects that I'm interested in -- I haven't researched it, but I'd love to find somebody who's an expert -- is why Jews have a cultural reputation of being good with money and being thrifty.

Now, you could talk about it being good with money, being thrifty, being parsimonious, whatever label you want to apply to it. But the Jewish culture, Jewish businessmen have a reputation of being good with money. And I've always wondered why that is. I've always wondered what the historical cultural heritage is.

I've wondered what the Jewish parents teach their children that may have been different. And so it's interesting to hear a reference like that in archaeological findings. Well, I've got another one for you, and this is actually really cool. And I can't remember this guy's name, but I know that he's a rabbi.

He's a modern rabbi, and I was listening to an interview with him, and he said that the ancient Hebrew word for money is exactly the same as the ancient Hebrew word for blood. Interesting. It is, because what you do with your life is what you do to earn money.

Fascinating. And I've got a friend that does some really great presentations on biblical coins. And he told me an even more interesting fact that goes to, like, connects to prophecy in a way. And I'm probably just really messing this up when I retell it, but it's so cool I'm going to tell it anyway.

But the ancient Hebrew calendar year was based on three seasons. And let's say that me and you were out, like, working in a field, and, you know, you're handling my ox, and then he gores you and kills you. And you're working for me. Well, according to ancient Hebrew law, I would have taken care of your family.

Right. I would have given them a year's worth of wages for you, you know, because you couldn't do it. Right. And that's how they took care of each other. So from what my friend tells me is that those wages were ten pieces of silver for one season. So for a year, ten pieces of silver times three seasons would have added up to 30 pieces of silver.

Wow. And 30 pieces of silver is the value of a man's life as established in ancient Hebrew law. Wow. How interesting. Now you're connecting it. Isn't that cool? I love studying that stuff. I am fascinated by it. I don't make as much time to dig into the history as I should.

But that is, it is definitely, it's fascinating to think those things through. And to see the connection. And even speaking of silver, one of the things that amazes me, so my story with gold and silver coins, was that I was trained as a mainstream financial planner, financial advisor. And for the early part during my teen years, I spent most of my time consuming mainstream personal finance books.

And when I started to dig into finance a little bit deeper, I had a client one time who started talking to me about gold and silver. And I was the typical mainstream financial advisor. "Oh, gold is only for crazy people who hide out in the hills and you're crazy.

You should just buy stocks and real estate." And I just had this perspective, kind of the very harsh perspective based upon the people who had influenced me. And he gave me the example of the value of gold and silver. And he gave me the historical example of silver, a man's day's wages.

And I don't remember the numbers, feel free to comment. But he talked about how in 1900 or 19-whatever, a man's day's wages was X ounces of silver. And then today, if you were to take an average median income, it's still X ounces of silver. And then historically, started to go through the price of items, the price of the United States, a Colt .45 as measured in ounces of silver.

And the price today of what you can go out and buy a good handgun and measured in prices of silver, the price of a man's suit and measures of silver. And then you go back historically, and that's where I've seen some of the charts where people go back and say in biblical times, a day's wages for a man was this number of pieces of silver.

And today, a day's wages for a working man is this number of pieces of silver. But there's a massive difference in terms of the valuation as measured in dollars. And that subject fascinates me to see those parallels brought through. Oh yeah, and it's really hard to refute because when you look at the numbers, it does add up.

But here's the thing, money is a grand experiment. What we're on now is what we would call a fiat currency-based economy. And that's kind of a new thing. So I know you know models of inflation. You can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but my understanding is that artificially, inflation is pegged at 3.5%.

Is that right? That's what I understand that they shoot for. So the Federal Reserve, as I understand, will shoot for a modest inflation rate of a few percent. But in reality, we both know that it exceeds that. Now gold and silver, as bullion or as collectible coins, in a way, balance that out.

They're hard, tangible assets that you can carry. You know where they are. If you can protect them and you know how to do that, it's a good thing to have. And a cool thing that's happened with gold and silver in the past 20 or 30 years, see, you've got to remember, from 1933 up until the late '60s, it was illegal for Americans to own gold coins.

Nixon changed that. I don't know that much about Nixon, but I know that I am allowed to own gold coins now because of what he did. So I kind of like him for that reason. But the loophole there was that you could have collectible gold coins, but not bullion.

And that's why, you know, for the longest time, everybody heard about South African Krugerrands because you could get South African Krugerrands, but no collectible bullion coins were minted by the U.S. for all that time. But now you can get collectible and bullion coins minted by the U.S. And that series, the American Eagle series, both in silver and gold, is very accessible for the average collector and easy to start now and still complete.

I don't know when the gold started, but I know the silver started in 1986. And in 1986, that was the first year, it was a lower mintage year. That and '96 are the two key dates of that coin. So those are still reasonable, even though they're harder to get because they minted less of them.

But it's a good series to start. And I would tell your listeners, if they were going to get into that sort of thing, they would want to try to maintain balance. You know, it's the never have all of your eggs in one basket. And then you have to consider, too, the cyclical nature of collectibles and coins.

Do you remember a few years ago when everybody was going crazy over Beanie Babies? Yes. I have a theory about this. You see, I believe that when there's money out there, it just finds a place to go. It's just a natural flow of energy and money. Now, I don't know if I already mentioned this, but I believe that money is the tangible manifestation of energy applied.

Okay. How do you mean? Well, what I mean is that you work to get money. You apply energy to what you're working on, and then you get money in return. So in that sense, it really is you're holding something tangible from the energy and effort that you applied. So if that's out there, and then the economy is looking good, then people are getting more of their energy back in terms of money, and there's no inflation, deflation, all this crazy stuff.

You'll know when things are good because people are going to be spending crazy amounts of money on dumb stuff. All the other models that you look at for why the economy is good or bad, none of that matters because what they tell you and what you see every day are two different things.

When those match up, then you know you're on to something, whether it's good or bad. But when you see people spending $200 on a Beanie Baby or any stuffed animal of any sort, then you'll know the economy is good. So this leads ideally into the next question that I had for you.

Here's what concerns me about pursuing collections of numismatic coins. Can you define numismatic? I can give my definition. Let me give my definition and you tell me if it's right or wrong. Numismatic, just because we didn't define the word earlier, numismatic coins are simply coins that have collectible value rather than just simply value for their base price as measured by a market price.

Is that an accurate enough layperson's definition? That's like an almost professional person's definition. The only thing I would add to it is that the market value or perceived market value also extends to the collectible numismatic portion of the coins too. The risk you have when you're buying just bullion is that let's say you've got two coins.

One's gold. Let's say that you've got $10 Indian. It's one of my favorite U.S. coins. It's a beautiful coin. It's got an Indian's head on the front of it. It's close to a half ounce. What type of metal? It's gold. You have to pay a premium to get that coin.

But when gold was back in the 1600s dollar amount price range, that premium was lessened. So you could have got a really good collectible numismatic coin for not that much of a premium over and above the price of bullion. So now let's move ahead in the future to present day, and that $10 Indian has maintained its value, but the comparable bullion coin has gone down in tandem with the spot, melt, or bullion price of gold.

Interesting. So if you had both of those coins, you would have more leverage, and you could dollar cost average the two of them, and it's likely that you would not have lost. But what I always caution people on, and it's good to have tangible assets as a hedge against inflation or any unforeseen stuff.

You want to have wealth in your hands or know how to get to it. I think of it as my Columbia fund. There you go. What's the thing in the last few days has been this poor guy who's been being just pilloried over the lion, the lion story. He was a dentist.

He was just a dentist. He's being destroyed, and he's in hiding. And if you go in a situation like that, now in that situation it's just public relations, so I assume he still has access to his credit cards and his bank accounts and his other assets. But I think everybody should have a Columbia fund, some money they can put their hands on and just go if they need to if they face some absurd situation like that poor guy's facing.

I'll give you another example of this. If you can remember Katrina. I was in North Carolina when Katrina hit. Why would Katrina affect me in North Carolina? All the flood of refugees flooding up. Not even that. That was part of it. But another part of it was that the refineries were shut down, so there was no gas in North Carolina.

That was the first thing to go. I'm doing my own thing. I didn't even notice. Then I started noticing, why is everybody getting gas? I saw a friend of mine at the gas station, and I said, "What's up? Why is everyone all crowded up for gas?" He goes, "Haven't you heard, man?

There's no gas." Katrina, Katrina. I'm like, "Well, that's really far away." That was a wake-up call. Then I thought, "Well, you know, I'm going to fill up, and I'm going to take the extra step of getting money out of the ATM." Because when things shut down, it's the person that thought ahead that actually has the advantage.

If the electricity goes off, there's no ATM. If you're always using cards to get by, and cash is a tangible asset. If you look at it, it's not that hard. I like to read. I have a soft spot for post-apocalyptic dystopian fiction. Yes, do I. One of the things that's funny, in order to make a good novel, the writers of the novel usually need to have some cataclysmic event.

It usually is, "Life is normal," and then, boom, something happens, and now the world has fallen apart, and in a matter of a day, you have rioting chaos in the streets. It's hard. I cannot conceive of the event that would happen that way. But I can conceive of things happening over a long, slow process.

What's amazing to me is I've been watching the economic crisis in Greece. Anybody who has half a clue should have-- This thing has been foretold for years, if not decades. But then, all of a sudden, at the last minute, some number of weeks ago, you start seeing all the pictures of the grocery store shelves wiped out.

All these things happen. I live in hurricane country, in Florida. Same thing happens. A storm is coming. It's forecasted for days. You're told every single year, all the government, public service organizations, "Get your hurricane kit together. Get your hurricane kit together." Every single year, they're yelling at you, "Well, storm's coming." Nobody does anything.

Nobody does anything. And then, the day before, boom, plywood's gone. The stores are wiped clean. It's like you don't have to be that-- Was there a clairvoyant? You don't have to be that much of a great prophet. Just at least be a few hours beforehand, and you're good. Yeah, and they even have pictures on TV, like, "Here comes the storm." It's that red area with a purple dot in the middle of it.

You want to get out before that comes in. Yeah, you're totally right about that. Going back to some ancient coin talk here, this is a cool thing. There was a period of time, and this is during the Byzantine Empire, where they thought that Jesus was returning every day. One of the rulers at that time got wise and he went, "Wait a second.

I'm not putting my image on the coin, because everything belongs to Christ the King." So, he put Christ on the coin. Really? And that continued from ruler to ruler for a period of nearly 500 years. And there's an entire class of coins that you could collect just with that on it.

It has Christ holding the Gospels on one side of the coin, and on the reverse of the coin, it would have either his name-- In that time period, they wrote it kind of a weird mix of Greek, changed into Byzantine, mixed with Roman, but it was Basil. And then you would have a cross on some steps, which we would refer to as the cross potent.

And they didn't even know this. This was lost to history. And there was a woman who was a numismatist, and she noticed that they had similar attributes, and she actually put all the anonymous folis--that's what they were called. You spell folis, F-O-L-L-I-S, or E-S, depending on the time period and the language.

But you could make a really cool collection just of that particular series of coins, and they would all be somewhat the same but different. And they only know who minted them because of the differences in the coins, and it was that lady who went back and put them in different classes.

Wow. What image did they use? What did the image of Christ look like on those coins? Because that would have been closer to the time of his life. Is it anything like the modern representations that artists use, or is it radically different? It is. And here's a really cool thing, and this comes from kind of my historian background.

I have studied Christianity and its history. And the image of Christ, they believe to be exactly what he looked like. And this goes back to-- On the coin, the image on the coin. And in all the pictures that we have of him today. And this goes back to iconography.

You see, there were no photographs 2,000 years ago. And the painting of icons was done by saints and holy men. And even now, the standards by which they are painted, you know, St. Paul looks like this. St. Nicholas looks like this. Those have been maintained for nearly 2,000 years.

And that's why the image on the coin is an accurate representation of Christ. And it's usually him facing, holding the Gospels in his hand. Wow. How interesting. It's cool stuff, man. It's really cool. On the topic of--because you started to touch on the value of coins in addition to the value of the metal also have a numismatic value.

I'd like to explore that from an investment perspective. I have steered clear of numismatics, numismatic coins, simply because I'm completely ignorant on the subject. And I'm scared to ever invest in something that I'm ignorant on. And I'm also concerned about the idea of it, because it seems to me like it's so subject to the whims of the day.

If you take something like precious metals, those markets are nuts volatile, like just all over the place. It's hard to imagine a more volatile market. I can't remember if there is. I'm trying to think. But the precious metals marketplace is extremely volatile in terms of spot price of gold or silver, or the other ones, platinum, palladium, whatever people get into.

And they're also subject to the pressures of the commodities markets and their various uses, whether that's the industrial uses of silver or that's the fact that Chinese people want to pile up gold coins and Indian fathers want to buy gold necklaces for their daughters, for their dowry. And fear.

You've got to remember they're subject to fear. Right. And then you get into this world of inflation, deflation, and you get into a time when the currency system under which we live, you have the Federal Reserve expanding the currency base, and then you get the TV commercials of "Buy gold right now." And then the market, the people, just the average citizen, through the mechanisms of supply and demand, the market price is drastically affected just by the populace, which the population in general is pretty unpredictable, and these events can happen.

So I have concerns about the marketplace because it's a very difficult market to invest in. I don't have a clue how to time the gold market or time the silver market. And then I go to the world of collections, and I'm like, "I don't know what is valuable." And then I think, "Who is the person that's sitting down and buying a collection of coins that's centered around the Byzantine Empire's representation of Jesus Christ?" And so it's just such a daunting perspective to me.

I just say, "Listen, okay, I can see the value of some bullion coins in my personal portfolio, but let me just stick with commodity bullion coins just because that feels safer to me." That's a preamble to simply say this. What do you see for an educated investor-- not super educated, but just somebody who's knowledgeable, the listeners of this show are not your mainstream buy gold because the 30-second commercial on Fox News says to buy gold.

What do you see as the role of numismatic coins in an investor's portfolio and in their financial life? That is a really awesome question. Here's what I would say. You've got some things that are working for you, and your listeners in that sense. See, things have changed in the hobby.

We still refer to it as a hobby because it is a very small segment, and people don't really like to talk about numismatic coins as investments because there's some iffy gray area there. I mean, there have been some bad seeds back in the '80s and '70s when the perception by the public of coin dealers was different, and justifiably so.

Back in the '70s, I've seen pictures in magazines of old-school coin dealers, and they're like fat, balding guys with Hawaiian shirts, big collars and gold chains and hairy chests. And now it's a totally different thing. Now it's the realm of the consummate professional. And that all changed, I'm going to say, in the mid- to late '80s with the development of third-party gravy-- You're going to have to edit that.

Let's go for it. It was a real show. Third-party grating? Third-party grating services. So when someone got the idea--and it was a bunch of coin dealers that didn't like the way that they were perceived. They thought, "We're going to develop a way for the public to buy coins confidently." Because just because you think it's one thing doesn't mean it necessarily is.

And so these services developed, and now they're very strong. Now you can go to a major coin show or a coin shop, and you can ask for a coin that has been grated by a certification company and feel confident that the coin you're buying is the coin that you're buying.

And you can check auction records using your phone. I mean, you've never had more access than you do now to buy with the right knowledge. And then you can see if you're getting a good deal on it. And you want to try to get a good deal on everything you buy, but you also want to buy something that is in sync with your passion.

We were talking about biblical coins. That was one of my early passions. I still love them. I still have a collection of them. And if you're building a collection with thought and purpose, it's going to create, maintain its value as you are working on it. So while you're putting them away, looking for upgrades to the collection, or looking for the missing pieces to it, it's building value while you're not even working on it.

And then as you add to it, it becomes more substantial and harder to put together. But why is it building value? Because that's what troubles me. So I get the perspective of collections. For example, I was born in 1985. So when I learned that silver eagles were first minted in 1986, I thought, "Oh, that's really cool.

I'll just put a collection of silver eagles from each of the calendar years for each of my life. And then every year, I'll buy another silver eagle. And that's Joshua's age collection." And then for my kids, same thing. So I have a daughter who was born in 2015. "This will be fun.

I'll put a little collection together." Because one of the benefits of physical coins is they're just kind of cool to hold. Even if it's a bullion coin, the first time you hold a one-ounce silver coin, or you hold a one-ounce gold coin, and it's just something tangible, and it's pretty to look at, the designs are pretty.

And that's something that's missing with my credit card transactions, or the dollar bills. They're just not that interesting. Or the statement from the IRA. Right, my quarterly statement. You don't get that same thrill. And let me tell you, when you are holding a coin that is 2,000 years old, and you think about all the places that it's been.

Yeah, I can see the value. I get that. And I never got that. When I went out and forced myself to buy my first coin, it was just simply like, "All right, I'm totally against this, but I don't have any rational reason to be against this." The perspective of doing this from an ideological perspective, I understand the arguments.

But just to say, at this point, I'm convinced, one of the truths of financial planning, if you ever make the statement, "Never do this, never buy this investment," you probably just simply are ignorant of the realities of when that might be a good investment. And that was what I realized was the flaw in my thinking, was to say, "Don't buy gold," is stupid.

Because a lot of people have made a lot of money trading gold who were tuned into the gold market. But staying focused on that was why I went out and forced myself to do it. And it was a very different experience. The first time I held even just still bullion coins, but looking at coins from different mints where they just make these different designs, and they're just artwork, it's still pretty cool to look at the different designs.

But I don't know how would I judge other people's desires. So if I put together a collection of coins under a certain theme, how would I even know that that would be attractive to somebody else? Okay, this is really cool. I have an awesome answer for you on this question.

You'll know because of what you're paying for them. Because you can't put a collection of anything together without studying what you're into and learning its market value. And as you watch the market value increase, and as you watch yourself build that collection, and you figure out which pieces are not quite so accessible to you, you'll know what's rare intuitively.

But why is the market value increasing? The market value increases, it goes back to what I was saying earlier. What is it? What condition it's in? And how many people want it? But fundamentally, it's the demand is going. This is what I think about. So in my mind, the only reason the market, those are the factors that are governing the price, why one piece is more valuable than another.

But the market price is increasing because of the demand. Well, where's the demand coming from these things? Is it just simply people who are mega rich and are looking for interesting, fun little things to do? And so is the trend that I would be riding if I were doing that, the fact that the wealth of the world is growing and there's always people who have money sloshing around that are looking for collections?

Like what is driving, other than the value to a historical value to a museum, why would a 2,000-year-old coin be more valuable than a 2-year-old coin? Okay, here's another really cool thing. I think the missing link here is accessibility. Okay. So looking at a supply and demand model, world currency is a great example of this.

Ten years ago, 20 years ago, world currency could be had for pennies on the dollar. It was just leftover stuff that was in every collection. Nobody really wanted it. There was no collector base for it. But in ten years, it's become one of the fastest-growing segments of the hobby.

And that is an indirect result of things changing in the world. It's the interweb, man. You know, now as another example, with the ancient coins, when I first started, the reason that I got into ancient coins is because I could get a really good value for money. So much bang for the buck, you wouldn't believe it.

I could find in junk bins at a coin show, for five or ten dollars, a $200 coin. Wow. Because they didn't know. Knowledge is the key. If you're collecting something that you're passionate about, well, you're going to have more knowledge than the person who doesn't know what it is and doesn't have time to figure it out, and they throw it in the junk bin.

So that's one part of it. But then now, auction companies, for example, every auction is online simultaneously being on the floor. So things have changed and have become more accessible. And that accessibility is what has increased its market value and established it. That, combined with the development of the third-party grading companies and the change in the perception of the business itself, that has all changed.

And for the better, for a guy like you. Now here's the thing that I always want to really drive this home. Anybody who wants to get involved in whether it's gold or silver bullion or rare coins or rare banknotes, for that matter, you're not buying the coin or the banknote.

You're buying a relationship. And you have to find a dealer that you feel good about, that you can see on a regular basis where you think of him and he thinks of you. In the terms of ancient coins, one of my policies, I mean, it's always been this way.

I have an unconditional lifetime of me or you, whichever is longer, money-back guarantee for the full amount. Anything could happen. For the coins you're selling? For the coins I'm selling. Okay. And I've never had to give back anybody's money. I have bought back pieces before using that policy, but not because of any dissatisfaction, but rather because the needs of the collector has changed, their focus of collecting changed.

Right. I found another one and upgraded it and sold me back the one that they had before. So if you have a good relationship, really a business friendship with a dealer that you're using on a regular basis, I mean, that guy is going to help you build and he's going to help you stay focused.

And you've got to find that guy. So give me some advice for somebody who's interested in doing it, and whether it's from the bullion perspective or from the numismatic perspective. Let's say there's somebody like me, somebody in years past, I'd never owned a coin before. When I walked into a local coin shop, I felt like I was doing a drug dealer deal.

I felt like somebody's going to see me here as the financial planner at the coin shop. I felt like I was doing a drug deal. And then it's kind of weird. You go in with the buzzing doors and you have the security and all that. Where would you encourage someone to start learning about the market and learning about the hobby?

Let me think about this for a second. My go-to answer is buy the book before the coin. That's a piece of advice that they give you. But that's really easier said than done. Because when you get into this, the first thing you want to do is go buy a coin.

You want to hold a coin. I don't want to buy a book about coins. Then wouldn't you just recommend go buy a bullion coin? I don't know. I guess it would depend on, as with anything, what are the goals of the portfolio? Are you trying to build a bullion portfolio that is just simply part of your asset allocation to hedge other aspects of your portfolio?

Or are you trying to build--I mean, that would be ultimately where you'd have to start. The great thing about this is that there's a personal component to it. So I would always recommend--yeah, it's good to have some part of this as bullion and some part of it as collectibles.

And whether it's banknotes, collectibles, or ancient coins, any type of coin, you want to have balance. And that balance is going to be dictated by who you are and what your interests are. And when you are keyed into that and you follow that path, then you're always going to make the best decision with the knowledge that you have at that time.

And so that's the one piece of advice that I would say adhere to. You'd be like, "What am I interested in, and how can I parlay that into my collecting efforts for later on?" And if you do that, I think you're going to be on the right path. Now, going back to the "buy the book first" stuff, sometimes you don't even have to buy the book now.

There are numerous auction companies out there. You can go online, you register on their website, and the next time there's a big auction for that particular type of material, whether it's banknotes or world coins, US coins, well, you'll get a notification of the auctions coming up. They'll probably send you a catalog.

And the catalogs are such a great, great source of information, because these auction catalogs are designed to sell. They've got great coins in there, wonderful pictures, wonderful descriptions. I have a reference library just of well-known auctions and auction catalogs. And some of them have been so well-established as the go-to resource for a particular type of material that the auction catalogs themselves are out of print and are worth several hundred dollars just as a reference piece.

What advice would you have for properly storing and caring for a collection such that it's not going to be destroyed by the elements over time? Oh, that's a good point. Well, it depends what the collection is. I believe everyone should have some sort of safe at home, but you can't let everyone know that you have some sort of safe at home.

So you need to have some way of protecting whatever you have. But if you can't get your safe at home or at your office, and it would have to be a good one, then your second best choice would be a safe deposit box in a bank. But you have a couple of different considerations there.

You have to remember that safe deposit boxes were created specifically for documents. And the environment that documents are well-preserved in is exactly opposite of that which coins are well-preserved in. Really? Yeah. So they're going to be in documents, they're going to need a more humid environment, but not too much moisture, and otherwise they'll become dry and brittle.

Coins don't like moisture. So if you have to get a safe deposit box, what you want to do is you would want to have a safe deposit box where it was up high if it was for coins, and down low if it was for paper. Wow. And I think that for a couple of different reasons, but the main reason is there could always be a flood.

Right. The safe deposit boxes are often in the basement, and so the paper would be totally destroyed. And this is such an apocalyptic way of looking at this, but you have to think of every contingency. Right. And the paper would be more likely to be destroyed by water damage and mold than the coins would.

The coins, especially gold and silver, are very non-reactive. Gold is one of the most forgiving metals. It's soft. You have to be very careful not to scratch it. And as far as reacting to the elements, gold is one of the safest forms of metal to invest in, far more than silver.

Silver is going to tarnish and change and become weird colors. Gold won't do that. There was a flood, and this is why I'm thinking of this. I had just seen a picture of some gold coins that were in a flood, and they were in third-party grading holders. They put them in these special holders so that the grade is what it is and it can't be taken out of the holder.

And they were just black. But then they were sent off to the conservation service and restored to their original former glory before the flood. So that's probably why I was thinking of that. Let me clarify. I believe you said that documents should go low and coins should go high.

But that would mean that the documents would be flooded. Is it actually that the coins should go low and the documents should go high? Did I say it backwards? Yeah. I meant it the other way. Okay. So coins down low, documents up high. Right. Yeah. Sorry, I said that backwards.

Sorry. What else as far as saving? I mean, should they go in those little plastic sleeves? Is that the best thing to do? Are those actually really terrible? Sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. There are two different types of plastic sleeves. You've got the PVC, which are soft plastic, and then you have the Mylar, which are hard.

Soft plastic PVC is going to break down over time and cover your coins with the leftover elements of the breakdown of the plastic. You don't want those. The way to remember this is hard, good, soft, bad. Okay. Yeah, and I got that one right. Let's look for Mylar. Nice.

Yeah. This is what just fascinates me about the things you're sharing here. This is why you've got to start a podcast on this because every single market I've ever researched has all these little intricacies, things like that. I didn't know there were different kinds of sleeves. My coins are just in whatever sleeve the coin shop gave me.

I don't know if they're plastic or Mylar. I never had any idea. Every market has these little intricacies, and you need to start a show to bring these intricacies out for people. One of the things, though, that I love about the idea of people owning coins is it brings back a sense of personal responsibility for things.

When it comes to protection of our money and our assets, in the modern economy, we're generally accustomed to outsourcing the protection of those assets. We just say, "Well, the FDIC insures my bank account. My house is insured by the insurance company. You could go down the list, and just about the SIPC is going to protect me from fraud from the investment dealer." When it comes to the coin market, though, in many ways, my observation, it's a very old-fashioned thing.

You can get screwed, and you can buy a fake coin. You can buy something that's bad. You can do an eBay deal, and it's not what was promised. And worse, even if you don't get screwed, well, not worse, but even if you don't get screwed, even if you get what you've got, once it's in your hands, you're the one who's responsible for it.

And if you put it in your kitchen cabinet, and a thief comes in and takes it out of your kitchen cabinet, it's gone. And so you've got to think responsibly, "How am I going to protect these assets that I own? How am I going to protect my portfolio?" And it changes.

I believe that can change your perspective because then you can start to say, "Well, wait a second. Do I really have confidence in this bank that's holding my money? And wait a second. Do I really have confidence in this insurance company that's insuring my asset?" And I think that's a really healthy perspective for us to care about our money.

I have found, I have been shocked in financial planning. One of the things that just most amazed me was how trusting people were of me. Now, I worked very hard to try to, number one, be trustworthy. Number two, convey that trust through open communication. And yes, every financial transaction is ultimately based on trust.

We have to trust each other. But I was just amazed at how people would affect large financial transactions without much due diligence. And I just thought, "We need to do a little bit better job of doing due diligence than taking responsibility for our lives, taking responsibility for our assets, trusting, investigating, digging into things." Because the best business relationships are going to be based on trust, but not blind trust, unverified trust.

And when you go through a due diligence process with a prospective business partner and you search things out, if you had a good relationship before, you're going to have a better relationship afterward. Instead of just saying, "Well, I'm not going to bother the relationship by trusting. Trust, but verify." And I love that aspect of physical assets.

Oh, yes, great. In fact, I'll tell you a really cool story. I just had dinner with a guy and five other people, all of them multimillionaires. And this one particular guy has one of the finest known collections of a particular country's coin. I can't say too much of it without giving him away.

Of a particular country, he's got the finest known collection of this country's coins in the world. And he's well known as a--his family owned a large group of chain stores. And so money is not an option for him. And he told me when he started collecting years ago that he wasn't looking for a particular coin.

He was looking for a particular dealer. And I said, "Well, what kind of dealer is that?" And he said, "Somebody who cares about me that I can care about too. I'm looking for a friend." And he's only dealt with two dealers during the entire time. Wow. And it's that sense of loyalty and friendship that can develop in this particular kind of business.

And there are a lot of little nuances and intricacies to it. You're right about that. And so many areas that you could get into. And one of the best things about it is going back to what you said about personal responsibility. This fosters stewardship. You're a steward of history when you're preserving this type of material and that story.

And that's a great responsibility. So you have to maintain its integrity. You have to collect with purpose. So how much time do we have left, by the way? Two more questions, and I want you to show me these. Okay, great. Because I want to show you these things. You brought some stuff, and we're going to try to talk about some physical objects in an audio format.

And I'm going to put it at the end here in case it doesn't work. Okay. Two final questions, and then we'll jump to that. Number one, explain for somebody who hasn't been to a coin shop, explain how the process of buying and pricing coins works, specifically with regard to the bid and the ask.

Because although the bid and the ask is common, and most people who are off the street have never recognized it, it happens in the stock market, it happens in coin shops, but we don't usually think about that. So explain how the bid and the ask price functions so that the dealer can get paid for their services.

Okay. Well, this is going to be complicated, but I'm going to throw it out at you anyway. Up until just recently, there was one price guide that all the dealers used to get their prices from, and this was referred to as the grace sheet because it was printed on gray paper.

But, you know, back when the economy started going south, everybody was feeling the pinch. So the people who published the grace sheet opened up the grace sheet to anyone. No longer was it reserved just for dealers. So the average collector can call the people who have the grace sheet, which was supposed to have the wholesale prices listed for each particular U.S.

coin with a bid and an ask. Now, the bid was what people would pay for it, supposedly, and the ask was what people wanted for it. What dealers would pay? The dealers, yeah. Sorry. Just make sure we're talking about the consumer or the dealer. It's hard for me to remember.

You've worked on the dealer side for a long time. I don't have to think outside of it, necessarily. So, you know, you've got the ask, which is what everybody wants. Dealers, what all the dealers want. And the bid, which is what they would actually step up and pay. Now, that has changed considerably because now anybody can get a grace sheet.

And so that's good for someone who's wanting to get into coins now because what once was wholesale has now become retail. And that's actually helped and hindered our business. It's hindered it in the sense that now dealer-to-dealer transactions are often anywhere from 10 to 30 percent behind the grace sheet bid, which would have been the maximum that it would have gotten.

So has that compressed the difference between the bid and the ask and they're just taking smaller margins? Or are you saying that's actually affected the prices? Because those prices are based off, and I know it would be different based upon a numismatic coin, but let's just stick with Boolean for a moment to explain the process because it's probably simpler.

The prices are based off the spot price, right? And then the bid and the ask spread. So did the spread decrease or did the price decrease? The spread has maintained, it's moved in tandem and always does with the price of gold and silver and the other precious metals. And in this grace sheet that I'm talking about, you're going to have the numismatic coins and the Boolean coins.

They're all listed in there. So there's an established market very similar to that of the Boolean coins as there was with the numismatic coins. But what has happened, and I'll give you a monetary example, let's say you have a coin that 20 years ago had a bid of $110 and an ask of $120.

And so the bid is what the dealer would pay you, the customer, and then the ask is for that coin. And the ask is what the dealer will sell you, the customer, will sell you the customer for. No, the ask is what they wanted, it's what they were asking for, that's how you remember it, and the bid is what people would pay.

Wait, wait, wait. Who would pay? The dealer or the customer? The dealer. I'm sorry. So I'm the customer, you're the dealer. Let's get this straight. So you're the dealer and I come to you and I want to buy a coin. And so you give me the price. Which price?

This is where it gets confusing, as if it hasn't gotten confusing already. I thought it was simple and here we are going in circles. So it's different because 10 years ago, the dealer would add a percentage on top of the bid to make his money. And that would be anywhere from 10 to 30%.

So if you had the $100 coin, then the dealer would buy it close to... and now I'm confused. You and I aren't doing so good with specifics. So the ask is what people are asking for, the bid is what they'll pay. So what you have to remember now is anybody can get the grace sheet.

It's based in California, it's a coin dealer newsletter, and I'm not trying to sell you a coin dealer newsletter. I want your listeners to have accessibility to this information. And 10 years ago, they would have paid more for comparable coins, foregoing any sense of appreciation or inflation. They would have paid more for the $100 coin 10 years ago than they will today, because of the changes in the market and the accessibility of information.

And that dealer has to tack on what he would want to sell the coin for commercially or for retail on top of the bid or the ask. Information has been a tremendous boon for investors. I didn't know the market had changed substantially in 10 years. It's neat to hear, though, because that's the trend across every market I'm aware of, is information has brought greater transparency, and greater transparency has brought more people being willing to do transactions, and has lowered the cost of investing.

So whether it's the cost of buying an index fund, mutual fund, or whether it's the cost of buying a coin, costs have been falling as information and transparency comes. So it's an exciting time that we live in. The last question I wanted to ask on bullion coins is specific to-- I'm kind of doing two things with this interview.

I'm scratching my itch of my own questions and also sharing some more general information. When I look at coins, and I look at the different gradings of prospective coins-- so again, keep it simple, majority of my audience is in the United States-- so US-American gold eagles or silver eagles.

And I look at, OK, I could buy a standard eagle, or I could buy a brilliant finish, or I could buy a mint, or all these different terms. And so the concern there would be, OK, if it's worth paying more, then I would consider it. But we get into that world where I'm just totally uncomfortable to deal with.

I don't know how to market a brilliant finish coin versus a non-one. Can you talk a little bit about that specific aspect of the bullion market and any insights you have of when it might be good to make one choice versus another? Yeah. This I can actually simplify. This is easy.

So let's go back to the 1986 silver eagle. That was the first year they minted that coin. And you look in the book, and you will have the book, because if you'd listened to this podcast, you would have gone out and bought it because you buy the book first, right?

Right. And which book? You would buy any book that would have US coins in it that would have their price and mintage figures. And then you can see that 1986 has a lower mintage than all of the other years, and its value is higher. So that would tell you that less of them are out there.

And so if you found one in really good condition, it would be valued for more. Now, the different types of finishes. A lot of this is just kind of marketing stuff by the mint. They're always coming up with new products and new limited edition coins. The big thing now is the presidential wives, first lady coins.

Is that the US mint or the individual other mints? The US mint. Really? I didn't know that. And they're pretty--well, they had the president series, the presidential dollars, and then they-- "Well, let's do a series of gold coins," and they put the first ladies on all of them. And the Jackie O coin just came out.

And that's a coin that was meant to be kind of like a collector coin but still has its base bullion value, but it was made specifically for collectors in a limited amount. They only were going to mint a certain number of them, so you had to get yours. Now, here's what I'm going to tell your listeners about stuff like this.

You see it coming out, and you go, "This is really cool. I want one of those." But here's what I'm going to say. Wait it out. It's just like IPOs. The IPO comes out, and that's the first offering of the stock. It comes out, and then everybody wants it, and so the price is way up.

And then after a few months, everyone who has it has got it, and it's starting to come back down and stabilize. The same thing happens with highly collectible and desired coins, especially when they're new, modern mint products. That coin comes out, big debut, everybody wants one, everybody goes and gets it, and it's really desirable, it's really hot.

And the price is really high. So going back to building the relationship with your coin dealer, if you have that relationship that you've been working on with him, whether he's your local coin dealer or some guy that you met at a coin show or a consultant that specifically deals in that sort of material, if you tell him in advance, "This is coming out.

I want these, and I want it after the price has stabilized," well, he's going to do that for you. Awesome. Yeah. Show me the--I'm excited. Let's get to the stuff that you brought to show me. Okay, this is really cool. And we were talking about hyperinflation a little bit earlier, and I brought you some examples of early and modern hyperinflation.

I'm going to put them in two different stacks and just show you-- and this is something really cool. What I'm showing you right now, that is what we call an AMC. It's an Allied Military Certificate. It was used to pay the troops in France after we had liberated France.

And if you look at the top of it, whoever had it wrote what it was worth. Worth four cents. It was worth four cents. So this is a square bill, almost like a half of a $2 bill of a cheap light paper, it feels like to me. And then it says here, "2" and it says in French, "Serie de"--I can't do it in French-- "1944" and then "du franc" worth four cents.

Interesting. Yeah, now it doesn't say worth four cents on the paper. Right, right, right. Excuse me, that's a note that maybe somebody has written on it. No, a serviceman, obviously, in '44 had it and wrote that on it so he could keep track of it. And I find notes like that from time to time.

And the cool thing about that is that paper does feel cheap compared to what we use today. But that paper was printed in ultraviolet inks. Really? You put that under a black light, it'll light up like a Jimi Hendrix poster. That's cool. Why? It is cool. Why was it?

It was an anti-counterfeiting device. And watermarks, you know what a watermark in a bill is. You hold a bill of light, you see the image of the president in the empty space. That technology was used in colonial currency. Wow. That's how old the watermark technology is. I had no idea.

Yeah. And Benjamin Franklin, he printed some of the first banknotes for the colonial U.S. And that paper was made out of hemp fiber and it had pieces of mica in it. And they had developed watermark technology as far back as the late 1700s. How would they do it? How would they actually get a watermark in it?

Do you have any idea? I don't know exactly what. I learned this years ago and it's one of those little pieces of information that you don't have to go, "Oh, how do I know this is a real watermark?" You just know when you see one. Fake watermarks are often applied with glues and things like that.

I know a good bit about counterfeit bills and how they create them. Not because I create them, but because you don't want to buy them just like counterfeit coins. And so I've had to study them and they're out there. But the watermark technology has been around for a long time.

But the thing that fascinates me the most about Franklin's early colonial notes is one of his anti-counterfeiting measures. It just seems to me like it was just this impromptu, "Hey, I think I'm going to go out in the yard and pick up a leaf." Because he put a leaf on the back of the note.

Because a leaf could not be reproduced. All the veins in the leaf. And on each of those colonial notes it was said, it's written on the notes, "Tis death to counterfeit." But there was never a documented case where they were sentenced to death but never actually put to death for counterfeiting in the U.S.

colonial times. Interesting. What next? Okay, so let's see. I've got some modern. Let's do the old stuff. Okay, this is Hungary, 1946. It's a post-war issue. It's a million pangos. Wow. It's a million... Is that French? "Un milliau?" Nope, it's Hungarian. Do you have any idea how to say that?

Nope, no idea. Okay, I see now that's got a funny-looking "A." Yeah. A million pangos, you said? Pangos. And I'm not even sure if that's how you actually say it because Hungary is just not an area where everyone's out there rushing to collect them. And they made so many of them because it was a period of hyperinflation.

But it's a really pretty note, and if you wanted to just kind of get your feet wet, you could find stuff like that. It's beautiful, yeah. It's blue ink, and there's a beautiful picture of a lady on here, a young lady, probably a queen or a royal person of some kind.

I'm not really sure. Yeah. But... So this was during a period of hyperinflation. So let's see, it says here the date on here is 1946. So would that have been, trying to think of other things that were happening, this was sort of post-World War II, I don't know anything about that period of inflation in Hungary.

I have to check that out. Well, you've got Hungary, Austria, basically any country that was affected by Germany, they were all trying to recoup from the war. Do you remember what year the big hyperinflation, Weimar, do you remember what year that was? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. This is cool.

I have a piece from that right here. This is the most famous hyperinflation out there. It was until just recently. I know you said you got Zimbabwe here. So 200,000 mark note here. Yep. Wow. And here's another one, here's a million. And look, these notes, what's fascinating to me is these are just, they feel like just the cheapest thing ever.

This is just a piece of paper and just some random ink. Like there's nothing special that I see. The million mark note here has some brown and some green and some black on it. But just seeing this, our money always feels to us like we're used to it. So it's got the cloth, it's a little thicker paper.

Well, it is cloth. It's made from cotton. And that is cheap paper. And if you look at this one here, the 200,000, that's a uniface. There's no printing on the back of either of those. And it's like this is worthless. And that's the point. It was worthless. And we feel like ours is worth more, but it's only worth it because of the perspective that we have on it.

Now here's something that I think is really cool that I've always wanted to research, but I have my suspicions on this. Alright, this is China. This is 1930s China, also a period of hyperinflation. Back and forth with China went with hyperinflationary periods for 50 to 100 years. But read what that says right there.

Ten customs gold units. Okay. Now my suspicion is, based on the notes that I've found and the studies that I've done, is that they intentionally changed the wording. See, they were using dollars and then yuan, which was just the Chinese word for dollar. But in that period, I think they intentionally changed the wording to unit, specifically so that the government could determine what they said a unit was going to be.

So a unit may be, and I haven't even had a chance to research this, but I've always thought that that is why it was done that way. Because let's say they're trying to instill more confidence in the populace. "Oh no, no, no. We're backing everything with gold." Right. Which was a big deal back then.

Right. And so they go, "Yeah, we're backing it with gold. Every dollar is backed with a gold unit. And we're going to start issuing the bills in gold units." What is a unit? What is a unit? It can be arbitrarily changed at any point, and I'm pretty sure that's exactly why it was done that way.

Yeah, and what's interesting to me, this note is kind of a double-sided note, and it's greenish. It's laid out vertically instead of horizontally, and then on one side it has Chinese characters, a picture of probably the emperor or someone in government. And then on the other side it's all in English.

And so at the top of the English side it says, "The Central Bank of China," and it has a picture of an old-fashioned, large-looking building, the kind of thing that you see in a big insurance company or something like that. Doesn't it make you feel confident? Yeah. And it says, "The Central Bank of China promises to pay the bearer on demand at its office here ten customs gold units." What does that even mean?

It just means that just like our currency was once backed with silver, before that it was backed with gold. Right. And I don't know what the date was. I want to say it was up until the '60s because I hadn't been born yet. You could take your dollar, which was a silver certificate, and get $1 worth of silver back for it.

I'm not sure when that changed, but I know it was before I was born. So here's something really interesting about this note. Look all the way down at the bottom and read that. I was going to read that as well. That stood out to me. It says, "Shanghai, 1930," and then at the very bottom it says, "American Bank Note Company." Why was the American Bank Note Company printing bank notes for the Chinese government?

This is fascinating. The American Bank Note Company printed notes for hundreds of countries during its run as a bank note printer. And they designed the plates. That's why part of them are in English. All of these vignettes, they designed that. And when you think about, here's the thing. No Federal Reserve.

That was a private American enterprise. And so efficiently run that it could produce bank note plates and help create the production of bank notes for dozens of countries simultaneously at all different periods in history. It's not exactly the same, but that's like Burger King feeding a few small nations.

I wonder who owned it. It would be interesting to know who owned it and if they were one of the original group that got together as part of the Federal Reserve. If anything, the Federal Reserve would want to put them out of business. And I know that they were in existence up until just recently.

I think back in the '90s or '80s, they had a big archive sale. And you can still find proofs and original sketches from the American Bank Note Company that never actually became bills. And reasonably priced, too. And that's a really cool piece of history. You have a note. Let's say if you had that in a much higher condition, they made so many of them because, again, that's a hyperinflationary period.

It's only in an uncirculated collector grade condition. It's only about a $30 note. And the condition that it's in, it would be more like $3 to $6. That's another thing that you want your listeners to know when it comes to conditions about coins and bank notes. It doesn't go up in tandem.

It almost doubles or triples in price. The better the condition is in something. Interesting. That's a good point. In general, this goes back to the bullion coin. If you had--it's hard to say, though. It's just so hard for me. I guess I'm so used to wanting to get more.

If I can get two coins for the price of one, it's hard for me to pay double the price for one individual coin just because it's a brilliant finish and beautifully restored. Yeah, and with gold being where it is right now, you're in kind of a good spot because you can still--you have to pay a premium just to acquire the bullion coins.

And that is based on desirability. But if you can pay just a little bit more for a much, much better coin, I'm going to tell you--I know this is going long, but I want to tell you how I first started doing gold coins. I didn't have money. I had time.

I had more time than I had money. So I thought, "How on earth can I afford gold coins? I know I've got to buy them. I want them, but I didn't have any money to put into them." So here's what I came up with. I started going to thrift stores and flea markets and consignment shops.

And I found that the price of gold had gone up so much that these things were priced at full retail value, but their melt or spot value was more than what I was buying them for. So I kept track of what I would pay for, and I would go out every--my day was Tuesday.

I'd go out every Tuesday, and I would buy--I would go to--and let me tell you, if you're a guy walking into a woman's consignment shop, you're probably the first guy that's been in there in six months. They're going to look at you weird, so you've got to get used to that.

But maybe--I'll wear pants now. Back then I didn't, so it's totally different. What did you wear? Got it. No, but typically men don't go into women's consignment shops, so you're going to not get the weird looks if you're just going to thrift stores and stuff. But people are kind of on to that game because when the price of gold went up, everybody was looking for it.

But I was ahead of the curve, so I was doing this before then. And what's happening is that you're starting to see the "we buy gold" shops disappearing. The cycle is running its course. And pretty soon gold will be at a lower level, but you can buy it because people aren't going to be hearing in the news, "Gold's so high!

Gold's so high!" And it'll be out there more. And you can find it in thrift stores and consignment shops and places like that. So what I did was I would go out every Tuesday and keep track of what I spent on all of it and silver throughout the course of the month.

And sometimes I would spend $200 or $300 on gold, scrap gold. I would take it to my local coin dealer who would buy it, and that would have a value of, say, $500. And I would tell him, "I'm trying to be a coin dealer. I want to do this full-time.

Can you help me out on something? Is there anything that you've maybe got a little bit of leverage or room in? Maybe something that you just picked up today that you haven't had to process or work up that I can get a bargain on, and that I can trade this gold in here for it?" And I would often get a $600 or $700 coin for the $200 that I spent on gold throughout the month, because the melt value was $550.

And then the wholesale value of the coin would have been $650. And then the markup that the dealer was willing to give me would have been another $50 or $100. And that's a perfect example of the added value that comes from active investment. Because your price was $200 plus the time of going out and scouring it, plus the knowledge of knowing what to look for, and then applying that time and knowledge to a specific market to exploit an inefficiency.

And that, in and of itself, is what active investing is. And in my mind, that's exactly why if you're going to invest in something, you need to only invest in things that you know of. Either deal with the commodity market based on some underlying... And here I'm using commodity as far as it's just all the same.

Deal with something that's all the same, because you know the basic tenets of it. Or deal with something where you have an intense knowledge of it. Because the collectibles market, what you did, takes time and expertise, but it was an interest of yours which made it well. Some other people can apply that to the classic Corvette marketplace.

They know that a 1953 Stingray is worlds more valued than a 1957, and they can put these things together and exploit this. And it's no different than what a venture capitalist out in Silicon Valley does when he's looking at all these tech companies, and they're coming in and they're making their pitches.

He has an interest in the subject, and he's kind of sorting through and choosing and saying, "Okay, where can I apply my time and my money to get an outsized rate of return?" And we all have access to these, even if it takes putting the legwork in. And going back to the relationship aspect of this, if you are going to that dealer on a regular basis and he knows he's helping you, he wants to pass on the legacy of what he has learned.

And he will help you if you're helping him. A lot of people, they go into these shops, I've seen this all the time. I'll be at a dealer's shop, and maybe a friend of mine or somebody that I'm just dropping by to see, and a customer will be there, and all they're thinking about is them.

They're not realizing the big picture. If I don't support this shop, it goes away. So there's a big thing to be said about loyalty there. And it's hard to find a coin shop. I live in West Palm Beach, Florida. It's a city of a million and a half. Palm Beach County is a million and a half plus people, maybe a million seven.

There are a handful of coin shops, and only one of them that I've found is any good. The others, I just got a bad feeling. You got to trust that too. You walk in there and they've got the gold chains and the Hawaiian shirt, and you'll know. So try finding a stamp shop.

That's a great example of how the change in times has affected something and made it almost go away. And why did that happen? Well, now stamps are sticky back. So you can't get them off of the envelopes to save them like you used to be able to. And stamp collecting, all the guys that were collecting stamps as a kid, they're in their 70s or 80s now.

So they're just kind of dying out. Do you want to look at these? Pick two more because we've got four or five more. But just pick your two favorites. Two favorites. The one that I think you'd be most interested in. Okay, now this is really cool. This has nothing to do with what you think it has to do.

What we're looking at is a Philippines banknote. It's a five piso. And this is a relatively modern note. They didn't always put dates on banknotes. They would just print the same banknote over and over again and not really put a date on it. And this is an example of that.

But here, look at the back. What you're going to see there is this really crazy bloodletting ceremony picture. And it's got like a skull and knives, and they're cutting themselves. There's a skull in the middle of the table, and there's a couple of knives on the table. And there's a bunch of men gathered around it.

And they've all got their sleeves rolled up, and one of them is slicing his wrist with a knife. Wow. And that's on a banknote. But look behind them. What else do you see? KKK. A banner that says KKK. Look at that. Totally not related to KKK as we know it.

I don't know what it stands for, but something, some secret organization in the Philippines that led to the development of the Philippines in such a way as for it to be important enough to be portrayed on a banknote. And that brings me to a really great point about World Banknotes, is that all of these different countries and these ideas that other countries have that we're now being privy to because of the interweb, because we have access to this now.

One of my favorite notes, and it's just a really cool note, is a $3 bill from the Cook Islands. Wow. And that bill, never would you think that you would see this on a dollar bill or any kind of banknote, but that bill has a topless lady riding a shark off an ocean wave.

And that's the Cook Islands for you. Everybody's topless in the Cook Islands. And there's another one in Swaziland from the 1970s. The king of Swaziland, he wanted to--he was a family man, right? So he wanted to put his family on the back of the banknote. He wanted to put a picture of his wife there.

All 11 of them. All of them topless. And I think two of them were under the age of 11. But it was a great honor to be chosen to be on the banknote and to be the king's wife. But it just shows you how different cultures are and how reflective that is in what they put on their coins and banknotes.

One more. Okay. This is something that I get from time to time. Actually, I'm not going to talk about this note. I'm going to talk about a note that I don't have here because I think it's more important for your listeners. Iraqi dinar. Good topic. I used to get this question.

I had several clients who bought dinar as far as the thing. So that's a perfect thing. Tell me about that. I get a call about this at least once a month. And what this is, it's a scam. Early on in the war, all these Saddam notes were being taken up and they were being replaced by the new government.

And somebody got this idea like, "Hey, some of these countries in the past have pegged their bills to the U.S. dollar." And that has helped them stabilize or go up in value. And they saw the hyperinflation in Iraq taking place. And so what they said was, "Well, we're going to sell Iraqi dinar.

And we're going to get a million dinars," which had an exchange value of, when all this first started, that exchange value was just a few hundred dollars. And they sold it for a thousand bucks. And they sold it to people who were expecting to win the lottery. And they sold it under the guise that, well, when Iraq stabilizes, then they'll peg this to the dollar.

Great sales pitch. Oh, yeah. But a total scam. And still people, they still come up and I get people ask me about this and I try to warn them, "This is a bad deal. You don't want to do this." You know, this is not, it's the most unstable government in the world.

It's not going to stabilize and then magically peg their currency to the dollar and then it'll be worth a million dollars. But the reason that they backed it up and made people believe it is oil. You know, all the oil there. So it will be backed with oil and then it'll be backed with...

And I want your listeners, if they ever get wind of something like that, that's too good to be true. Those Iraqi dinars, the largest denomination that's out there right now is a really beautiful bill. And its value is there inherently as a collectible because it's so pretty. And it's a high denomination piece, too.

And high denomination items have a tendency to be more collected because people are interested in hyperinflation. Maybe it's the fear based within us, you know. But it's a really beautiful note. It's got like a rainbow design and artifacts on one side of it. And it would be worth having and you could get one now for about 25 or 30 bucks.

And that's a 25,000 dinar bill. But what people did with this Iraqi dinar scam is they put a million dinars together and they sold it for a thousand dollars. And it doesn't even exchange for that now. So if anyone was sitting on them, my advice would be to immediately find a way to get rid of them because it's only going to destabilize.

And the other thing about it is with world currencies, any government of any world currency can say, "Okay, we're pulling everything in and reissuing new currency. The old currency is not going to be any good after this point." Great Britain does that all the time. They change their bills on average every 10, 12 years, 15 years.

And then they have a short period of time where the old currencies can be brought in in exchange for new bills. So that could easily happen tomorrow with the Iraqi dinar. Yeah, you have no control over it. You're not the one sitting in the office making the decisions and kind of making stuff happen.

You have zero control over it. Yeah, yeah. So I'm glad I thought of that because… Yeah, that's a perfect thing to end on and super, super… It was heartbreaking. I was in an appointment one time with this couple, elderly couple, and they had been through just some major health problems.

They were in their late 60s. And the health problems had wiped out the little bit of money they had. They were both trying to work and then were digging through assets and whatnot. And we're talking about what they have. "Oh, I've got $5,000 or $8,000 worth of Iraqi dinar." Oh, no.

Like, it's just criminal because in this, the $5,000 or $8,000, that was a materially important asset. And I don't remember how I handled it. It was… I didn't jump up and down on them and tell them they were stupid because ultimately that… They're already in a bad spot. They're already in a bad spot.

And just saying, "You lost all your money," and destroying the hope of that. I don't actually remember how I handled it, but I just remember just feeling totally crushed. And they had so much hope in that stuff, probably. Right. It was going to be the ship that was going to come in.

It was going to be the silver bullet that would just make them rich. Well, that and those magic beans they traded that cow for, right? Right. I hate how it seems like the most needed among us in society, the most needy, our elderly family, our elderly friends, they're the ones who are the most susceptible to scams.

And God has a special place in hell for those scammers. Oh, yeah. I mean, it's hard to stay abreast. And that's why they're targeted because there's so much information out there now that it's hard to be on top of all of it. But, yeah, I've been in the exact same situation where you got somebody like their family member has just died.

They're crying across the table from you and you're like, "I'm here to help you. I just want to give you as much money as I can for what you have to help you get on with life and grieve and benefit from what your heirs left you." And that's a really tight spot to be in.

And it's also tough when people think they--and this is my encouragement--find out how much what you own is worth. Because I remember I had a neighbor and the neighbor, he contracted dementia. But they didn't have much money. They didn't have any savings. But they had a little box of coins, of old coins.

And so they had been saving this little box for a long time. It was their little hoard of old coins that they thought were going to be pretty valuable. And so we were going through and I was helping them with some pro bono financial planning, just trying to figure out how on earth they were losing their house.

I was trying to figure out how on earth they could survive. And they had brought out this little box of coins. And lovely lady, late 70s, lovely lady, "Well, we have this. Maybe this can save us." I didn't know anything about the coins. So I said, "Well, let me go find out." I took him down to my coin dealer.

And I trust him. He's an expert. And he was going through and he just, "No, no, no. It's worth about 30 cents, about 50 cents, $1.20." It was like there was nothing there. And it's just heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking because this was her last thing. Maybe this has value. Maybe it's a few thousand dollars of silver coins that are very rare because I saved these from my grandfather.

Well, you know, there's so much that I wish I could just talk to your little people for an hour. That's why you're going to create a podcast. Okay. So there's this one other thing that I really want to bring home to them. Go for it. Is that don't mistake an accumulation of coins for a collection.

Remember, every GI from World War II brought back a handful of this stuff and it's in a cigar box somewhere. That's not a collection. A collection has effort, intention, study, passion, all those things behind it. And that's what creates wealth. That's what you got to pay attention to when you're buying coins out there.

And before you buy any coins, you want to find that dealer that you like and trust, that you think, and to steal one of Dave Ramsey's things, has a heart of a teacher. You want somebody that's going to lead you and help you and cares more about you and passing on the legacy of his knowledge than he does your money.

So you want that and you want to collect with passion. That, and I think pay that person well. Obviously it needs to be fair, but don't quibble over the... So we were right in the middle of this really great thing and then my recorder died. So we're here on the backup recorder.

I just wanted to finish just simply by saying don't try to cut the dealer out of their profit. It's a very difficult business and the dealer brings a huge amount of value by giving you access to a market. And I can't imagine how these dealers stay in business just due to the volatility of the business, the volatility of the market, the thin margins.

So find a dealer that you trust and don't be scared to pay them for their services. I mean, do you agree? Oh, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. And that's going to go a long way in building, remember, that friendship that you're looking for. You want someone that cares about you, but you have to care about them too.

And again, if you don't support that local coin shop, that dealer that you can just walk into and he says, "Hey, you know, I thought of you when this came in the other day." Well, that guy will go away because it costs money, a lot of money to the security of a shop.

I had a shop once. I know this. And now I just work exclusively with clients on a one-to-one basis because I didn't like sitting in the shop all day, didn't like waiting for stuff to come in, wasn't all that exciting for me. And a lot of dealers feel the same way.

When something exciting comes in, they want to put it in a collection that will preserve it. And they're looking for you just as much as you are them. Right. So as we close up, I know you're not accepting clients anymore. You've kind of closed that part of your business, except on an extremely limited basis.

So I'm trying to get you to start a podcast so you can share some of this knowledge with the general public because we need more knowledge of this market. But if there were a perfect ideal client of the very small number that you are willing to accept, what would that type of person that you'd be able to actually help look like?

And what would be the scenario where you'd be able to help them on a consulting basis? Oh, okay. Well, what I really look for in people is passion, and I look for a sense that they want to believe in humanity, and I want them to also be worthy and dedicated stewards of history.

And those things, it's going to make -- for any of your listeners, that's always going to make for a good collection. That's what you're looking for in someone who's building a collection or a potential client. And you want somebody that -- you don't want to work with someone for the next 30 years that you wouldn't want to be friends with, and it takes that time to build a good collection.

So basically you need guys like -- excuse me, Glenn Beck, who collects all these rare things, and all his friends, all his collector friends, and political history and coin history and all that kind of stuff then. Well, it doesn't really matter what they collect as long as they have intention and purpose behind it and that passion and a willingness to believe in people.

You can't have a relationship with any kind of consultant if you can't believe in people. You know, granted, trust has to be earned, but on both sides, you know. And there are clients that I meet and I think, hey, this is going to work. And then after a few transactions, I realize, no, they just aren't there yet, and I've got to let them go.

But I do what I do not necessarily because I want to own a bunch of coins or bank notes, or I like experience in the history of them, but I do what I do because I can only save as much as I can save as one person. But if I can divide that task by client, from client to client, then I am preserving a lot more history, and I myself am being a better steward of history by doing so.

So I'm utilizing other people for my purpose, and that's really what motivates me. So I'm always looking for someone that can understand that aspect of me and that they know that what I'm trying to pass on, we're sharing the burden of, you know, or privilege, you know, depending on how you look at it.

Well, Brian, thanks so much for coming on. This has been super fun, super awesome. Man, I can't thank you enough for having me. I've enjoyed meeting you, and I guess you're probably just going to start stalking me now until I get this podcast up. Indeed. I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did.

I learned a ton, and I just found it to be a really, really fascinating conversation, a really, really fascinating topic. I'm very interested in it. In coming days on the show, I'm going to try to bring you a lot more of a discussion about money itself. I've been reading a lot on it and trying to think about how to structure it, so I hope to bring you a lot more content.

But I was thrilled to start with this interview with Brian Norris. I hope you found some useful, actionable tips that you can integrate into your own life. Something a little bit different, I'm not playing the ending music yet, even though I'm back talking. I'm going to go out today with just another clip.

After I turned the recorder off, then I started looking through some more of the bills that Brian had brought to show me. And I went ahead and flipped the recorder back on just to record some of the things that he was talking about. So I'm going to go ahead and place that audio clip here for you.

It wasn't structured. It wasn't me trying to host the show. It was just a recording of us speaking back and forth together, and many of you might enjoy it. So I'm going to go ahead and include it here. But as we go, thank you so much for listening, and thank you for those of you who are supporting the show.

Thank you very much. As of today, September 1, there are 223 of you who are supporting the show on our Patreon page, a total of 223 patrons, which is awesome. Awesome. I would love, love, love this month of September to bring that number to 250. If you would be willing to support the show, that would be an increase of 27 of you.

So to go from 223 to 250, if you find value in the content of Radical Personal Finance and you find it valuable to at least the tune of a buck a month, please go to RadicalPersonalFinance.com/patron. Feel free to sign up. I've got a bunch of different levels there for you that you can contribute, but it can be as little as a buck a month.

Go to RadicalPersonalFinance.com/patron, and let's see if we can get this support up to 250 by the end of the month. Thank you all so much. Here is the clip of Brian and I talking after a bit. It's just going to jump right into the conversation because I flipped it on mid-sentence, but here we go.

All right, so what's the story on this piece? This piece here, this is Poland. This is hyperinflationary period that was relatively recent in history, and this is about in the middle of it. This is 1988, and I think it went up to the millions, but they recovered, and now the Polish zloty, which is what they call their currency, I want to say it's about five to eight to the dollar.

I could be wrong about that. I haven't exchanged any of these in a long time. If that's something that fluctuates every day, it could actually be double that now. I just don't know. But the other one is another example of modern hyperinflation a little bit closer to home. This is Mexico, and this is 5,000 pesos.

The reason that I pulled this note is because I wanted you to see it, and this would be a great one for your listeners to see. This is from a time period where Mexico was going through some major inflation, and their coins and currency did the same thing. So this note, if you could get it to the central bank in Mexico, it would be one of those notes that they would still take on a limited basis, but it would only be worth five new pesos.

So they just chopped three zeros off. That's if you could find someone that would be familiar enough with it to actually take it. Five new pesos, to give you an idea what that's worth, I think 20 pesos is worth about $1.40 or $1.60 right now. So it's a massive, massive change.

Sorry, 200 pesos. 200 pesos, okay. Do you remember about what era this was? I don't know anything about Mexican hyperinflation. This is probably from '87. Yep, it's 1987, 24 February 1987, as dated. I got this really cool app here. I want to make sure I said that right. I can't.

There's so many. There's like 200 plus countries, so I can't remember all of them. So I go to this thing here, and as far as currency exchange goes, I do this all the time, but I would not recommend that your listeners get into currency exchange. There's some money to be made there, but it is truly the most volatile thing, more so than gold and silver.

I knew a couple that actually made money on the euro. They made over $100,000 on leveraging the euro when it first came out, but you can't do that anymore. That time is gone. I'm sure there's somebody who gets rich 4X trading, but the people who get the richest are the ones who sell courses on how to trade 4X.

Exactly, yeah, you're totally right about that. Okay, so just to go back and make sure I'm telling you the right stuff, 20 Mexican pesos currently at the second in time equals $1.22. So this would be 5 Mexican pesos when you cut the zeros off of it, and that would make it 1/4 of that.

So you've got a 5,000 note that they just transferred for a 5 peso note. Yeah, and here are two other countries that did almost the exact same thing. This is hyperinflationary Turkish note. They went up to the millions, and this is Romania. And notice here on the Romania note, there is a little dot right there, decimal point, after the first one and zero.

So they could easily just--nope. And this has been done over and over again. People talk about hyperinflation, but they don't quite understand how countries fix it. And all you have to do is go to South America, and you can see what has happened. And this was recent. This is in the '90s, you know, Peru, Venezuela, Argentina.

And the hyperinflation people remember from 1930 or 1913 to the '20s of Germany culminated in '22 and '23, but it began with the war, World War I. The hyperinflation that people remember from that period where the story is where you have a wheelbarrow of money, and you go in to buy some bread, you come back out, and the wheelbarrow is gone, the money is still there on the pile.

That's the well-known story. Well, it was like that in South America in certain places where at breakfast time, the breakfast would be one price, and then at lunch it would be literally thousands of pesos more, and then at dinner it would be double what it was at lunch in a day.

So how do they fix that? Well, here's the thing, and this is why you have to have leverage in different asset classes and different forms, and you have to have some form of tangible wealth always and cash on you, because you don't know when this hyperinflation is going to happen.

If it did happen, and I'm not one of these naysayer, doomsday kind of people that think that hyperinflation is actually going to happen, and I'm about to get to why, but if it did happen, if you didn't have cash on you, all the cash, like in Greece right now, people are lined up at the ATMs, you can only get a certain amount out, and those regulations would be in place to keep things balanced.

Well, the people who took the cash out months ago are the ones that were ahead of the game. They're living okay, not comfortable. Nobody is comfortable in Greece right now, but they're better suited to wait out the storm than the people who have to stand in line all day at the ATM.

The other thing is that the way they figured out to fix that problem is they just wait for the currency to circulate back into the federal banks, or when I say federal banks, because I was thinking in our case the Federal Reserve Banks, but they had different banks in these other countries, the central banks of those countries.

When it filtered back in, let's say, for example, this note here, well, I don't really have a good example of this, but let's say you've got a Venezuela note, and now Venezuela is not a good example. Let's say Argentina, pesos in Argentina, and you have the note is 10,000 pesos, and then they go, "Oh, we've got to reset.

We're going to have to put a stamp on this 10,000 pesos note and make it 10." And that's all it takes. They just put a stamp on it as it comes through the bank. They don't even have to print new notes. They just make a stamp. >> How do the shopkeepers actually deal with it?

Because this is like I've wanted to take a trip to Argentina and others and actually talk with people because as much as I've read, I still don't understand what it's actually like to be on the ground in that scenario. How do they deal with that? How does the shopkeeper deal with the fact that the price of the carton of milk is 10,367 pesos, but now someone is coming in with a 10-peso note?

>> Right. Well, the way the shopkeeper deals with it is he closes his shop. That's why the thing that when everything was going bad there, the one thing you couldn't get was the thing everybody needed, toilet paper. >> Right. >> You know, and you don't think a little stuff like that mattering, but you can't--mattering is not a word.

You don't really think a stuff like that could matter so much. >> Right. >> But it does. You know, the little nuances of the daily life, the milk, the bread, the toilet paper. You know, you've seen this in hurricane country. >> Right. >> I've seen it. I grew up in the Atlanta area, and you get a quarter of an inch of snow in Atlanta, and it's like the apocalypse, you know, with snowmen.

You know, it's bad stuff. And everybody rushes out to get all those things that they didn't even think were important just 24 hours prior to that. >> Yeah, how bread and milk are good emergency foods. >> They're not. >> I mean, they're terrible, but that's just what people get.

>> Yeah, it's really crazy. But the shopkeeper has no choice but to close his shop, and then when those things are there, those commodities are hidden there in the shop, and then now he's got to worry about crime. And then you see little by little just the deconstructing of societal progress and coherency all because of money.

>> Fascinating. >> Yeah. >> I think that's where the preppers have it right. You know, it doesn't take that much to maintain some of the basics, a couple extra cartons of toilet paper, a couple extra cartons of soup. You know, if you can get through 30, 60, 90 days, you're miles ahead of many other -- just the majority of the population.

>> Yeah, if you're not in debt, you're miles ahead. >> Yeah, if you're not in debt, I'm miles ahead. And if it gives you -- that gives you time to figure out options. You can sit back. And most crises seem to blow over pretty quickly when you just give a little bit of time for things to shake out.

>> Oh, yeah. I mentioned about the Katrina stuff. When that happened, it took a few weeks for it to filter up to North Carolina where I was at the time. I just stayed home for two weeks because I had all those things, not because I'm a prepper in a bunker, but because I had a pantry, I had cash, I didn't have to be anywhere.

And so I just got a lot of office work done. You know, I weathered the storm. Not everybody can do that. But I think a good portion of your listeners probably can. And I've talked about that on the show, and that's one of the reasons why it's a no-lose proposition because, number one, simple preparedness with the things that you need is good because it allows you to buy in bulk, save on money.

It allows you to be more efficient with your time instead of running -- I mean, I remember when I was in Costa Rica, I stayed with a family that was not wealthy. And I spent three months living with them. And they're not by any means -- they weren't by any means the poorest family that I've ever stayed with.

They were just barely making it. They weren't poor-poor. They had a reasonable house, comfortable enough. But what was remarkable to me was how hand-to-mouth it was. And so I would go down to the pulperia and buy one roll of toilet paper and, like, four eggs. And it's always this, like, just enough, just enough, just enough because the cash is so tight.

Oh, when you do that, the markups, you're dealing with the neighborhood pulperia, which is going to be the most expensive because they'll take the bigger packages and break it apart and sell it. And you're doing that because, you know, the other areas, you just can't -- they can't scrape the money together.

And so for poor people, as far as I'm concerned, the first thing to do should be to do whatever you can to start buying in bulk and to start getting discounts on price purchases and start gathering stores of physical -- the physical things that you need, the boxes of raisin bran, the gas for the car, because that insulates you from the ups and downs and allows you to plan.

And there's so many people, even just in our society, who are just hand-to-mouth, hand-to-mouth. They can't seem to get ahead. And the first thing is to scrape like crazy to get ahead in those areas because the dollar impact, the percentage impact of just those little decisions is huge as far as the benefit of saving 20 percent and not having to do with that 20 percent markup.

It has a huge impact on their life. Yeah. Well, and the other part of that is stewardship. You know, if you start to adopt principles of stewardship in your life, whether they're financial or just with your time, stewardship of your time, that's going to translate into having a little bit of setback.

And one of the things that I've always done and encouraged others to do, especially when they're starting to get into coins or bank notes and trying to get into saving and collecting, is I tell them, you want to live below your means. You want to trick yourself into pretending like you have a lot less than you really have.

Right. And find a way to make that work because then you're always behind the margin. Yeah. Right? Is that the right way to say that? I don't know if it's behind the margin. Behind the level. You're always ahead. I don't know. You're always a step ahead of the game.

Right. Because you're always – if you're tricking yourself like I can only spend this, but if you always have more than you think you really have, you're going to make decisions accordingly. You're not going to be out like, oh, well, I got all this extra money in the bank.

I can splurge a little bit today. And a good part of that is to use cash because if you have the cash with you, you know how much it is, and you just stick to what you can spend. Right. When you start collecting coins or bank notes, you stick to a budget, and you let that budget roll over.

Let's say your budget is $200 a month, but that doesn't mean you have to buy a coin every month. If you don't find something that fits in with your purposeful collection with intent behind it, you just roll that $200 over, and then you buy a $1,000 coin in five months of not finding one that adds to the collection in a more significant way.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks, man. This has been awesome. Super fun. I appreciate you bringing these things, and then I'll figure out how to – You can do whatever you want to do. Yeah, how to display them. So cool. The LA Kings Holiday Pack is back. The perfect gift for the hockey fan in your life.

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