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It's more than just a ticket. Are you looking for a book that's not boring that you would be able to give to friends or family members who may be interested in finance but might not be interested in reading the type of finance books that you read? You know, the boring ones?

You know, I do it too. Or maybe Christmas is coming up. Well, my guest today has written just such a book. Welcome to the Radical Personal Finance Podcast. My name is Joshua Sheets. Thank you for being here. Today is Thursday, October the 23rd, 2014. This is episode 87 of the show.

And today I have an interview with a man named Joey Furman who has written a pirate adventure novel to teach you about finance. It's going to be good. One of the things that I see happening more and more in today's world is we're developing brand new types of media to appeal to different people.

And one of the types of media that I see at least a need for is better books, not necessarily just more boring finance books that tell you here's what you do. There's plenty of those. And it seems if you go down to the personal finance section, it seems like if you read four of them, you've probably read about all of them.

Many of them say about the same things. But what if there's an opportunity for a different format? My guest today is a man named Joey Furman. Joey's a really great guy. We met at FinCon when I was out there a few weeks ago or a month or so ago in New Orleans.

And Joey formerly worked on Wall Street where he worked as an investment analyst. And then he quit Wall Street to pursue his dream of writing and publishing his book. He's written a book entitled Pirates of Financial Freedom that purports to teach approximately 70 important financial planning concepts and lessons about personal finance.

And it does so in the context of an adventure novel. So we're going to talk with him today. The interview is just a little bit over an hour. The first half is all about the book. And then the second half is all about what it's like to go on Wall Street.

And because Joey started in that business and worked in that business, he's a chartered financial analyst, he has experience in that business, I thought many of you who were interested in finance would be interested in hearing a little bit more of his story, hearing about some of his experiences, hearing what it takes to be an analyst and be involved in Wall Street.

So if you're just interested in the books, excuse me, in the book, the first half of the show is the half for you. If you're interested in what it's like to be a financial analyst, the first and the second half is what's right for you. Enjoy. So Joey, welcome to the Radical Personal Finance podcast.

I appreciate you're making the time for this interview. Well, it's great to be here. So I've been looking forward to talking with you since we met. And I have your book. And what I'd like to do is I'd like to accomplish in our interview today almost two different courses of discussion.

I'd like to talk with you about your book and some of the lessons that are in it and some of the ways that it can be applicable and about that. And I'd also like to talk to you about your experience in the financial business. But to kick things off, would you start by sharing with me and the audience a little bit about your history, especially just your personal history and experience in the world of high finance, so to speak?

What's your story? Sure. So let's see. Grew up in Omaha, went to University of Pennsylvania for college, where I actually studied computer science and engineering and did a minor in poli sci. Had no interest in finance in college until I read Rich Dad, Poor Dad. And I was like, "Oh, this finance stuff's actually kind of interesting.

Maybe I should look into it." So Penn has the Wharton School of Business, which is one of the best business schools in the country. So I took some classes there. And I actually had to learn finance on my own in order to get my first Wall Street job, which was actually down in Boca Raton, Florida.

I think that's near where I live. Where I live, right. Yeah. So I wanted to live near the beach for a while. So I just moved to Florida and ended up getting a job at Morgan Stanley down there. And the way I got the job, because I had really no finance academic experience, was I just immersed myself in it.

So I read dozens of investing books. I was trading my own stocks and options account. I was watching CNBC. A lot of my friends were in the finance business, so I knew the lingo. And I found a guy who took a chance on me. So I worked with my mentor for probably five years.

And that was at Morgan Stanley Merrill Lynch. Then I moved to New York because I wanted to live in New York. Real quick, real quick. Were you working on the retail side or were you working on the institutional side? Were you a trader? What was your role there? And explain the different possible roles.

Because working at Morgan Stanley Merrill Lynch can mean many, many things. Absolutely. So down in Florida, there aren't many institutional jobs in finance. It's mostly all retail because there's a lot of wealth down there. So my job was on the investment analysis side. So I worked for a financial advisor.

I didn't do any sales. I did more of the analysis for the portfolios. So that was my role down there. And yeah, there's lots of different roles in finance, which I'm happy to get into. But basically I wanted to move to New York because New York is awesome. So I worked for Morgan Stanley there at their Fifth Avenue office.

Same thing. I worked for one of the biggest investment teams in the firm. And my job was, again, like the portfolio manager route. And then I decided I wanted to become an entrepreneur and pursue that dream. So I quit my Wall Street job to come out with my book, Pirates of Financial Freedom.

And now I'm on that route because I see a lot of I see more potential with that right now than I did on the Wall Street path. So I guess that's kind of my my story in a nutshell. How long ago did you leave Wall Street to work on your book?

Earlier this year. So that was probably April-ish. Awesome. So tell us about the book. Yeah. So I got tired of reading all those boring personal finance books. And I know that there's a big need to learn about financial literacy, but nobody wants to read a thick long book or listen to a boring lecture.

So I was like, how can I make this exciting? So I wrote the first personal finance adventure novel. Basically, it's a pirate adventure story that teaches over 70 money lessons. And I think that it can help a lot of people. Yeah, I have a copy of the book, which I got I bought from you after we met.

You told me about it. And I am so excited to see. I didn't know it was the first, but I'm so excited to see you doing this and leading the charge, I guess, with finding some ways to adjust and teach personal finance lessons in a way that is more accessible.

I'm really concerned about just our general population, our general culture. Knowledge comes from largely comes from books. And all the knowledge of the world is found in a book. But I'm really concerned that many people can't read, many people don't read, and many people when they do read, choose not to read books that have information, but rather to read books that are more exciting.

And I love to read an exciting book, but I'm just so concerned with financial literacy in our country. And so I love having this as an option for people. Well, I'm glad you got a chance to read it and that they like the idea. I'm calling this, I don't know if I'm trying to start a movement, but I call it financial edutainment.

And I think that this category of book can just really explode and edutainment in general can really explode just based on, you know, people have short attention spans, they want results now and they get bored easily. So I think that teaching in this manner, and I'm trying to get this book into schools and homeschoolers are working with it, all that, I think it can really change the future of education.

Right. Are you aware of, I mean, are you aware of any competition in this genre? You mentioned that you're the first kind of with the adventure story, but are you aware of other allegories, other parables, other books that maybe influenced this or influenced your idea? Well, Pirates of the Caribbean definitely influenced my book.

But as far as like a finance type book, I think the best known one is Richest Man in Babylon. And I've read that and, you know, I thought it taught valuable lessons, but it wasn't funny, it wasn't adventurous, it wasn't much action or plot twists or anything like that.

And then another one is The Wealthy Barber, which also teaches good lessons. But again, it didn't have that kind of, it wasn't a page turner. But I would say that those are probably, you know, the two that I'm aware of. Yeah, I love Richest Man in Babylon. It appeals to me.

I like the language of it and I actually like, I like the lessons, I like the language, and I like that it is so far removed. You actually did something similar with your book because you used a lot of kind of pirate language to mix it up a little bit and make it not necessarily sound like 2014, although you didn't set it in 1714.

It was clearly a modern setting, but just with a twist. But I loved the language in Richest Man in Babylon because the passage that stands out to me is there's a passage in there where somebody went and spent all of their, spent a massive amount of money on, you know, the finest new camel hair robes, something like that.

And the greatest... Who doesn't want one of those? Right. And you're thinking, "Well, that's stupid. Who would spend a lot of money on a camel hair robe? Oh, wait a second. You mean these new, you know, $300 jeans I just bought? Oh, man." Yep, that's a good point. So that's, and I think there's a real need for it.

And I hope you, do you think you'll, and I want you to go through kind of the plot of the book in just a second, but do you have ideas for more books similar? Obviously, you got to make this one a raging success first, but have you had other ideas as well?

I definitely have other ideas. But as you said, I'm just focused on kind of sales and marketing for this book, which is a whole learning experience on its own. But yeah, I want to make this book a success first. And if I can make it a success, then yeah, I've got plenty of other ideas for future books and courses and speaking and all that kind of stuff.

Awesome. That'd be exciting. I've wanted myself to create almost like a Hardy Boys for business adventure. Oh, nice. Because when I was a kid, I loved reading Hardy Boys stories, and they were all about kind of detective work. But I would love to bring that in and bring in business adventure somehow and teach kind of concepts of finance on the side of entrepreneurship, on the side of due diligence, on investments, things like that.

So we'll see if I can build the margin into my life to be able to get it done at some point. But if not, take it and run with it, because I'd love to see more of this genre exist. Go ahead. Excuse me. No, I think the genre can definitely grow.

I'm going to mispronounce his name, but Patrick Leoncioni or somebody wrote fables of business. So I'm going to look up that, but that might interest you as well. It's based more on the modern time, but that's probably another type of book that is similar to this kind of fable type story with business lessons.

Neat. There's one other person also you might check out who I'm aware of, because he taught my CFP prep class, one of the named Ken Zahn. It's Z-A-H-N. He wrote, I think he's written three murder mystery finance novels. So he is a financial planner and with a lot of experience.

So he wrote some murder mysteries and he uses them as a context for teaching people about some intricacies of financial planning. So he basically presents some financial planning cases through the context of a murder mystery. And it's pretty cool. I've only read one of his books, but he gets pretty in depth into, for example, here's the wealthy heiress and here's how her estate plan would be structured.

And if we use this discount, we can get this valuation and does it. So you may also check out his work. It's a little different than yours. Yours is very focused on practical stuff. His is a little bit more the intellectual financial plan side, but he also recommendations for the audience.

But Ken's not here, you're here. And I want you to talk about your book. So tell us the plot and then share some of the lessons that you've worked in. Sure. So the basic idea of the plot is you've got Captain Rich R. Daly, and he's a pirate captain and the book is based in kind of like today's world, but with 17th century pirates, like off the coast of South Carolina or something, they're still kind of there doing their own thing.

I kind of compared to the Amish, right? So they're kind of still doing their same things that they were doing hundreds of years ago. So these pirates are still around kind of doing the same things that they're doing hundreds of years ago. But a lot of these pirates are becoming landlubbers, which are us, right?

They're attracted by the cell phones and like the, you know, those fancy jeans and everything. So they decided to move and become a landlubber. So the captain, he has to recruit all these landlubbers to become pirates. And he thinks the best way to do that would be to show the world that his pirates are rich and wealthy and that they have lots of gold.

The problem is his pirates are broke. So he just so happens to have a son that works on Wall Street. So he requested his son come down and teach his pirates like how to build wealth and how to build treasure and all that kind of stuff. So it's their adventure story where Giuseppe, the Wall Street guy, teaches these pirates how to pay down debt, how to build their credit score, how to save for retirement, how to think like the rich, buy their first home.

You know, there's over 70 lessons. And along the way, they've got sword fights and treasure hunts and mythical beasts and kidnappings and walking the plank and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, that's the basic idea of the book. What are some of the types of lessons that you have woven in?

When you say 70 lessons, what would be some of the general concepts that you're referring to? What I did is I tried to, you know, the main lessons that a lot of the personal finance people are well aware of, right? So live below your means, snowball method, dollar cost averaging, like all those kind of basic things that you and I and the other personal finance people are well aware of, but that the general public really isn't aware of.

So I wanted to make sure that I covered a lot of the basics. But then I threw in some extras and I invented kind of some of my own terms like the 10 times test or the think delay mentality. I also got into kind of things that aren't necessarily covered in personal finance as much.

So like stock ownership rights and ETF investing and some of these other things that maybe aren't getting as much attention as they probably should. I want to read one of the things I wanted to read. Let me read about four paragraphs, just a little bit of the dialogue around the 10 times test, because this was one of the things that stood out to me.

I love these little rules of thumb and I have never heard. So let me read it and then we'll talk about it. Just read about a very short excerpt here. He said, "But buying things you want isn't always a bad thing," continued Joey. "Part of the joy of being financially secure is that you can blow your money on silly things you don't need." "Really?

So I can buy it?" Rusty became excited again. "Well, it depends. You need to be able to comfortably afford your wants. I live by the 10 times test." "What be that?" asked Sandy. "The 10 times test says that when it comes to something you want, you should have at least 10 times that amount in savings.

If you don't, that means you are spending over 10% of your life savings on something you don't even need." And it goes on from that. So did you make up that 10 times test? I did. Yeah, it's my own original concept. And that section you're talking about, Rusty wants to buy a $500 parrot, right?

Because everybody, or every pirate quote-unquote "needs" a parrot. Of course. But obviously it's not a need, it's a want, which Joey, aka Giuseppe, aka looks, talks and acts a lot like me, that character. So he doesn't have that 5,000 doubloons in savings and so it doesn't pass the 10 times test.

This is actually something that I applied in my own life just when I was getting out of college. I was just kind of like, "Oh, that's a good idea. Why would I spend 10% of my lifetime savings on something that I don't even need?" And then I just kind of like, "Oh, you know what?

Other people may find that useful as well." And based on the reviews and people that I'm hearing from, they're like, "That's a really cool idea. It's really easy to understand. I'm going to start applying that." It's very useful. And I'm glad you made it up. I may steal it.

I'll credit you every time I can. But some of these just little rules of thumb I find are so useful to help us, I guess, have a basis that moves toward wealth. I remember another one I've stolen is Sam, Financial Samurai. His, "Don't buy a car that's more than 10% of your annual income.

Make sure that you have never owned vehicles that are worth more than 10% of your annual income." And what can happen with these things is that we don't really have any societal rules about what we spend money on and what we don't spend money on. So therefore, oftentimes, the default becomes we just simply, if we have it, we buy it.

If we have it, we spend it. And without some sort of guideline, we don't have anything to judge things on. So if I tell somebody, "You should never spend more than 10% of your annual income on a car," then they can say, "Oh, wow. So that means I make $30,000, so I should drive a $3,000 car.

Why?" And they can say, "Well, if you want to be wealthy, this would be a rule." And so when they're going and looking for cars, automatically, they're looking in a different price range than if somebody's making $30,000 a year and is saying, "Oh, I should spend 10% or 15% of my monthly income on a car," then they're looking and saying, "Well, 10% of my income would be a little under $300 a month, so therefore, I can afford the payment on a $300-a-month car," and they wind up with a $25,000 or $30,000 car, and they have no ability to become wealthy.

So these rules need to be rules, these work ideas of mine. I should spend 25% of my income on housing. Well, wait a second. What if you had it, I should spend one year's salary on housing? It changes the scenario. So I really like your 10 times test because it's useful even for younger people to say, "Hey, have 10 times this amount of money in savings and don't ever wipe out all your savings on something." Yeah, and I think it's applicable to everyone.

So if you have no savings and you're going to buy a dollar candy bar, at least that'll get you started to save $10 before you buy that candy bar. And a lot of times, it's just getting started. People are so intimidated by taking that first step. And then if you're a millionaire and you want to buy a $300,000 Ferrari or whatever, then you should probably have $3 million in savings.

So I think it can apply to everybody. Absolutely. It's useful, and I don't really care that much if people follow it to the letter. I care that you think it through and that you have a logical framework for what you're thinking through and that the rules that you have are rules surrounding wealth, not rules that are dictated by a consumer-driven society who says, "Yes, you can afford this if you can afford the monthly payment." Are you aware—is there any other of your ideas that you implemented in the book that I might not know that were original with you?

Well, it's kind of associated with that 10 times test, but this idea I call "think delay." And basically what this says is—let's say you don't pass the 10 times test. That's not saying that you can never buy something. I think the general public thinks like all the personal finance people are saying, "You can never buy nice things," or "You can't buy that," and they think that you can never buy it.

I think delay says, "No, you can eventually buy it once you're financially responsible and in a better place." People think that, "Oh, I don't want to listen to these personal finance people because I can't buy luxurious things and whatever." And I don't think that's what any of the personal finance people are saying.

It's saying, "You want to delay that purchase until you're in a better spot." And so I just coined "think delay" for that, but a lot of people preach the same thing. Awesome. That's really cool. I like that. It's good to have a little bit of lingo. Do you have a list on your website, or are you personally a list of the 70 or so lessons as far as specifically enumerated somewhere?

You know, I do. It's not well-formatted or anything. I think it's probably more than 70 lessons, but I was like, "Yeah, let me just see all the things that are in here." So yes, I do have a list. One of the ideas that I had when I was reading the book—and I'm not sure if you thought of it and decided not to—I was thinking about how I could leverage the book for other people.

And I could just give it to somebody and say, "Hey, here, read this book." I think that I would use this book—I'm going to interrupt my own question. Did you specifically target this toward a certain audience, a certain age bracket, a certain type of person in your mind? I did.

So I wrote it—so I tried to think of what would be the best type of person that I could really make a difference for that could apply the lessons. So there's a lot of the retiree market, there's a lot of the kid books. But kids, they don't make any money.

Retirees, I don't want to say it's too late, but it's kind of too late. So what I did is I focused on the teens and 20s market, because they're starting to make some income, they haven't formed these bad habits yet, they're hopefully not in a load of debt, and you can really make a difference.

So I focused on that market. But it turns out that people from ages 8 to 48 have read the book and are like, "Wow, this is great, I understand it, it's making a difference in my life." So I guess it's one of those books that can apply to multiple ages, but I did write it for the teens and 20s market in mind.

Right. Yeah, that's what I thought, partly because you said that on the back cover. I did. But my thought was that with those 70 lessons, I kept wanting to look to the back of the book and find an appendix with a listed number of those lessons. And you didn't include an appendix or an index of the lessons.

What you did include was you included some note pages. And so when I thought about how I would maybe leverage this book is I would give this to teenagers as a book report topic. And I would use it almost as a...and say, "Hey, read this book." And then the goal would be after reading it, go back through and outline it and try to bring out as many of the lessons.

And maybe if I were a teacher, I would maybe integrate this as you get points based upon how many lessons you can bring out. And so maybe if you actually take your list and just simply produce it as a teacher's guide or as a manual. I mean, if my son were older, I would be assigning him, if he weren't already reading them, I would be assigning books like this and setting up an incentive system for him to read them, understand them, outline them, apply the lessons, enumerate them, and figure out how they could be applied to his own life.

So maybe if you built out that out, maybe with the home education community and maybe with teachers who are economics teachers in the government school system or in private schools, maybe you could build out some teacher resources for them and that would help teachers and parents to be able to assign it.

I think that's a great idea. I'm actually putting together a curriculum for teachers right now. It's based per chapter and each chapter has discussion questions, activities, and test questions that the homeschool community and the teachers in general can use. But I hadn't thought of adding just the 70 lessons in that guide.

So that's a really good idea. I can easily do that. That'd be cool. Because it's so pithy. And the challenge with these books, as far as a book that is an edutainment, as you mentioned in the show, or in the book, is the key to education is implementation. Knowledge isn't what makes the difference.

It's applied knowledge. So my thinking with books, I have had to learn how to read books and figure out how to apply them because reading goes far beyond just the reading. So it's kind of an easy entry way. But then I need to go back and dissect it and figure out and apply it because it's the application of the knowledge, I think, that really makes the transformation.

Oh, I agree 100% with that. And that's why the last chapter in the book is basically the goal setting guide and kind of my system on how I think you can set and achieve goals. Because you're right, there's a lot of people that already know this knowledge and are still broke.

Why is that? Because they haven't applied it. I think the biggest money mistake people make is that they don't actually take steps to apply the lessons that they've learned. They're not taking any action towards financial freedom. They just kind of read about it and think about it, but don't actually take those steps.

So we're on the same page for that. Absolutely. So I would encourage people to get the book. I was impressed when I looked at your website that you have an excerpt from the book. Frankly, I don't know how to--this is the first time I've ever done an audio interview about a book.

So I want to intrigue people with the concept without ruining the book. Right. There are some plot twists in there. So I don't want to spoil them. Right. So I'm trying not to give a spoiler. I have no idea how to do a book interview with an author other than kind of what we're doing.

But you have a really great--go ahead. I spoke over you. I apologize. Say what you just said. Well, I'm curious if you had a favorite character or a favorite lesson in the book. For me, I just--I didn't have a favorite character or a favorite lesson. I thought that--I'm partial to pirate captains, so I thought the captain was a fun character.

And I liked how you used kind of these wacky--slightly wacky, not absurd, but slightly wacky characters with the pirates. And because it's kind of funny because you can almost create a caricature. And instead of building out a modern caricature, you can joke about how this pirate is--what was the scene in the book where the pirate is going to the store and buying all of these bottles of rum?

Yeah. And he's got all these different brands of rum and has no money. Well, it's kind of a joke about a pirate doing that, but yet how many of us know people that do the equivalent of that, whether it's with alcohol or not? Yeah. And so I like these caricatures because instead of being specifically critical of modern society, we can kind of take the indirect lesson and apply it to somebody that we know and recognize, "Ah, look at that." Well, it's funny.

So this--an eight-year-old girl in New Zealand read my book in about five hours, she said. And her mom emailed me and was like, "Joe, you've created a monster. Every time we go to the store, she's like, 'Mom, is that a need or a want?'" Right. "Have you thought about inflation?

What are we going to do about that?" And she's saying all these things from the book, and she's starting to apply some of the lessons with her own entrepreneurial-type things, and she's starting to save some money. So yeah, some of these characters really live in people's minds for a while, because they're at the store and they're like, "Oh, you know, I thought about what Rusty said, and I ended up not buying it." Right.

And so, yeah. Right. And that's the thing that we can do, is you create books as--I'm creating a different medium here, or a different type of media, with podcasting. I would love to see--I've seen some people--I mentioned it in one of the shows where some people are producing a cartoon series of business lessons with Warren Buffett on YouTube.

I don't remember the name of it. But we need--it's very easy for me to get really hardcore and radical about the doom that is facing our world because of a lack of academic excellence, and to just be awful. But the key is, we've got to adjust and learn how to reach people with lessons, and learn how to encourage other people.

And not everybody is the same way, and we need different types of media that appeal to different people. And just by giving--I mean, I'm thrilled that you created this, because--and I'd love for the audience to buy a copy. Go and buy a copy. Even if you aren't that interested in reading it for yourself, buy a copy to give to somebody.

It may be that somebody says, "I don't need to read a novel that appeals to teens," and I would encourage them to read it. But I'm going to be giving my copy away, simply because this is the type of format. It's easier for me to give your book to somebody who's not that interested in finance than it is for me to figure out, "What book do I give them?

Do I give them the Boglehead's Guide to Investing? Do I give them the Dave Ramsey Total Money Makeover? Do I give them the Rick Edelman this, or the Jacob Blunt Fisker's Early Retirement?" A novel is a fairly straightforward thing. And if we can--the decisions that we make are influenced by the paradigm that we have.

So we've got to intentionally shape that paradigm, that way of thinking, and encourage others with new, more constructive ways of thinking. I'm glad you think that way. And I do think my book makes a good gift for somebody who knows nothing about money, because you can give it to them in a way that's not insulting.

If you give somebody a "How to Get Out of Debt" book, you're kind of like, "What are you saying? I don't know how to manage my own thing." But if you're like, "Hey, here's this really funny book, and on a side you'll also learn some good money lessons, but the story's really cool," that makes it an easier way for them to learn these lessons, like wrapping the medicine in some bacon or something.

Right. I remember when we were at FinCon, I heard Pete "Money Mustache" say, "Trick people into learning something." I hate that philosophy, because it's so antithetical to how I think I should be, and we should be. We should desire to learn people. I just hate that philosophy, but I recognize that sometimes it is important and necessary.

It's sad, but that's kind of the world we're living in for most people. The people that need these lessons are the ones that aren't reading the books. You kind of have to trick people. Right. Very cool. What is the website for the book? You can go to PiratesOfFinancialFreedom.com. You can also Google "Pirates of Financial Freedom" and it'll come right up.

But for those who aren't skeptical of what is this, you can also get the first half of the book for 99 cents on Amazon. Oh, cool. So people can preview it and see if they like it. That's a great marketing idea. Thank you. But to buy the actual book, you have to go to my website, because I've done a lot of research, and that's the best way to do it, if you can pull it off.

Right. Yeah, self-publishing, as long as you're okay with it from not having a book, you can bring the prestige. It certainly seems like you can. It results in more money in the author's pocket, depending on the marketing platform. So that would be great. And I would just encourage people, it's October.

October 21 is when we're recording this interview, so this interview will go out sometime here toward the end of October. And Christmas is coming up. If you're looking for a good Christmas present, I think I love to give and receive books. And sometimes books stay on the shelf until they're timely.

But that's a great present to give somebody as a Christmas present. It can be a great present for a young person, for a not-young person. I think it's a very, an excellent way to bring in financial concepts. And because there's so many financial concepts, unlike some personal finance books that are written in the mindset of, "This is what you must do.

Here's the plan. Here are these five steps, and you have to follow these five steps." It's much more low-key, and there are enough lessons that somebody could pull from it to say, "Here's what's appropriate to me at this stage." I think it could be an excellent gift as a Christmas gift.

So I would encourage people to consider that as we approach the Christmas season. Well, I appreciate that. And a good news for if you're going to make a New Year's resolution for taking control of your finances in the next year, that's also right around the corner. It's hard to believe that it's already end of October.

Time just flies. Amazing. Anything else on the book that I missed, or anything you'd like to mention about it before we flip over to your experience in the world of finance? No, I don't think so. I think we did a good job. I think it's a good introduction, and again, first time I've done a book interview, so this is the best shot I've-- You did a great job.

I was impressed. Oh, good. Thank you. So the world of finance and the world of Wall Street, there are a lot of people who are interested in-- they listen to this show, they write me emails and say, "Well, how do I get into finance? I'm interested in personal finance, I'm interested in investment, I'm interested in learning." I have experience in the personal finance space and on the perspective of the retail financial advisor space, but I have no experience on the institutional side, on the portfolio management side, and kind of on the Wall Street side.

So what's it like? Why did you leave? Did you leave because you didn't like it? What's it like to work on the institutional side? No, I actually did enjoy it. There's a lot of opportunity, and it's hard to categorize a finance job in general, because there's so many different types.

Even within firms, you can't really stereotype firms either, because each department is different, each experience is different, so to kind of generalize the whole thing is very difficult to do. But the reason that I liked being in the finance industry is because there's so many different options. You can go down many different avenues in terms of research, like the amount of reading and learning you can do is just infinite.

Even in personal finance, there's a lot to know, but when you're doing research on companies and on economic trends, and when you're trying to make predictions about stock prices and asset classes and all that stuff, literally you could never read it all. So the opportunity for learning is infinite.

And obviously you can make a ton of money, so that's another appeal. I think that's probably the main appeal for a lot of people to go into finance. What's interesting is that a lot of my friends work in finance, they work in hedge funds, investment banking, private equity firms, and a lot of them, they're not that excited about their job.

They got in because it's prestigious and the money's good, but I don't feel like they're excited and passionate in their jobs right now. Some are, don't get me wrong, some are definitely. And some of them are very good, but that's one of the reasons I kind of wanted to try something different, because I'm excited every day talking about my book and figuring out how to get it out there, helping people.

Whereas a lot of the finance people, they're not that thrilled about going to work every day. Do you, you've done enough academic work. You hold the CFA charter, which is a substantial amount of work. And I'm going to ask you in a bit kind of just to lay that out for people, because people oftentimes have questions.

They see all these designations and they don't understand the course of study. But before we get there, how do you handle the, like, how do you handle the idea of the value that you actually bring working in mainstream finance? Many people in the personal finance space view, and I think rightly so in many circumstances, view the finance industry, especially the Wall Street finance industry, as more of a leech on society and as a cost, an embedded cost on society, rather than as a value that bring, something that brings value to people.

Based on your experience, how would you answer that challenge? Well, I don't think that that's entirely inaccurate, but it depends. Right. So there are some finance people who are really intelligent, who put in the work and they do add value. But another reason that I got discouraged with the finance industry right now, because it's really hard to generate alpha.

So alpha is, let's say the S&P 500 is up 10 percent in the year and your investment mutual fund was up 12 percent. Right. So back of the hand calculation, you added two percent of alpha above the market. So, you know, for people who aren't maybe familiar with that term, but it's really, really hard to generate alpha.

And it's especially hard right now because over the past couple of decades, so many smart people have gone into the finance industry that it's really saturated. And so to find that edge and like a large cap company is really difficult right now. And you find a lot of people leaving finance going to technology because you can kind of get rich quick in that kind of area where there aren't as many smart people, but that's becoming saturated too.

So, I mean, I think a lot of the people in finance are really doing their best. They have good intentions. They work hard. I mean, these people work 80 hours a week, you know, looking for that edge. But it's pretty tough. But there are, I mean, there are good people out there and it's kind of changing.

So like it used to be all about active management and now passive management is kind of making its trend with like low cost ETFs that are cost effective, tax efficient. You're not you're never going to beat the market, but at least you'll be the market. You're never going to underperform.

And so that's kind of been my philosophy when I was managing portfolios. Like the core would be kind of like this passive approach where you're not paying these exorbitant fees. And then you look for like the outliers where you actually do find some managers who really are adding value and who really do a good job.

But it's like any other industry, like 80 percent of the people in any industry just aren't adding that much value. It's those finding those 20 percent of the people who really are really good at what they do. Right. Right. And what's frustrating is that, I mean, the challenge of finding those people, it's double challenging.

And this is where when you get into the the kind of the world of prediction, which is why so many people throw in the towel and I understand why they do is that not only do you have is that you have two levels of challenge. The manager has defined.

The manager has to create Alpha and Alpha, and I'm glad you defined it because we throw that term around. But how I think of it is just simply the value that the manager adds over and above just simply the market condition. And so the manager has to create Alpha.

And then if you're a portfolio manager, you've got to find the managers who are creating Alpha in a specific asset class. And it's a tough that's that's it's a it's a double whammy tough. But yet that I mean, do you believe it's possible to do on based on your experience?

No, I do believe it's possible. Yes, I do. But another challenge on top of what you mentioned is that you can find the managers who have generated Alpha in the past, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll generate Alpha in the future. Absolutely. Which, you know, makes it even more difficult.

I mean, I spent, you know, two or three years just interviewing investment managers. And I learned a lot about, you know, how they perform the research, what they think their edges are. And so I got a real in-depth look and I talked to the salespeople and the portfolio managers.

So you kind of see both sides. And, you know, it's tough. But there are there are people out there who generate who have generated Alpha over a sustained period of time. But it's it's very tricky because those people suddenly get all that all the money. Right. So you're doing a good job.

You're generating Alpha. And now all of a sudden, like you get all these asset flows. So while it might be easy to generate Alpha with like a hundred million dollar fund, try generating that same Alpha with a two billion dollar fund or whatever the numbers are. It just becomes the more successful you are, the more difficult it is to generate that upper performance going forward.

So it's tricky. But yeah, I mean, there are successful people out there who have done a good job at it. Explain for somebody who's not familiar with institutional management, why is it more difficult when you have more money? Why is it more difficult to make a higher rate of return?

Shouldn't it be simpler because you have more money, you can buy more deals? Well, so Warren Buffett has said I'm a Warren Buffett fan. I mean, I'm from Omaha, Nebraska, originally. So, you know, he said that if he could just manage like a small cap portfolio, small cap, meaning, you know, small stocks, not the big stocks like IBM and Microsoft.

And, you know, those are the large cap stocks, but like just a small cap portfolio. And he could he could generate 100 percent plus returns. Right. Because there's there's more inefficiencies when you get to kind of more esoteric, smaller type of asset classes. But when you've got, you know, like Facebook or some company that every Wall Street firm has an analyst covering it and they have all this research reports coming out and there's 20 different research reports on the same company, like trying to get an edge in that field is it's very difficult.

Plus if the managers in that large company, let's say they were able to double the revenue in one department. Right. I mean, that's huge. That's a huge deal. But like when your company's that big, like doubling the revenue in one department, it's like nothing. Whereas in a smaller company and a manager makes a change like that.

Now, all of a sudden, like that's a game changer. So those are some of the reasons. Right. And also, in addition to that, at least from and again, I haven't worked in this, I've read a little bit, but you also just have the problem of making your trades. And when you have I mean, that's what Buffett talks about.

And I don't remember the numbers he uses in recent discussions. But when you've got to make a 50 billion dollar deal and a 30 billion dollar deal, that's a lot tougher than making a three million dollar deal. But if he went if he made three million dollar deals every hour of every working day, that would never be anywhere near that would never be anywhere near it wouldn't even it would be completely mindless in terms of the sheer size of the portfolio that he has to allocate.

Whereas for an individual, let's say that you are a massive fluent person and you can go out and and do a three hundred thousand dollar deal or a million dollar deal or a three million dollar deal. That can make a major difference in the size of your of your returns.

If you can you can I mean, you can find a lot of small deals is kind of 50 billion dollar deals don't come along too frequently. No they don't. And he's and Warren Buffett is looking for those types of deals. You know, he's looking for those big elephants where he can put 20 billion dollars to work.

But I mean, the opportunity size is also smaller. Like how many 20 billion dollar companies are out there versus how many three million dollar companies are out there. Right. So another reason why it's just really hard. The bigger you get, the harder it is. Right. Yeah. I mean, I've struggled because there's so many conflicts, even in my own thinking, to be able to make general general observations, like more specific, you know, suggestions for in an individual situation where you know the facts of the situation are easier.

But more generalized observations are tough because there's so much nuance, you know, active, passive, you know, investment styles, investment approaches. But I talked with a guy from Morningstar one time, extremely smart guy, and he was a upper level researcher at Morningstar. And we were talking about portfolio design. And he's in the statement he said struck with me as being a sensible statement.

He said, if we're going to use an active strategy, it better like it better be in an area where we're sure it's adding value beyond the passive strategy to justify the fee. Because, you know, it's almost like you see this approach happening many times is that somebody may build a core portfolio around large cap U.S.

stocks, a large, very efficient market, a lot of information, a very stable market. But buying an S&P 500 index is not necessarily the same opportunity as buying a Brazilian gold mining index. You know, there's a little bit of a difference for somebody to maybe be able to sniff out outperformance or be able to do a little bit more of exhaustive analysis on whether it's a fundamental analysis or there may be a it's just a less efficient market.

So I see it as that's currently the opinion that I hold. And I just keep looking just to see is this opinion accurate. But to me, that makes a lot of sense as markets develop, then a lot of times the smart money, the researchers are going to move to areas where they're not as developed.

And then that will help those markets to develop and to become more efficient. And gradually over time, then these this is how the economies adjust and shift and evolve over time. Yeah. And the reason that those smaller markets develop, as you say, is because when they're kind of undeveloped and there's inefficiencies there, those investment is you're making really good money.

Right. So they're putting up good returns. Now, that's I mean, returns draws a crowd. Right. So if you're in an inefficient market, you're putting up good returns. That's going to draw all the people to help develop that market. And then the returns aren't as good because now there's more people researching it.

And so that's kind of the cycle. Right. And then in an idealistic world, whether this practically works or not, then this is all part of the capital, the attraction of capital to a market. So theoretically, one of the major functions that so-called Wall Street serves is the efficient allocation of capital.

So if we're working in Malaysian in the Malaysian markets, then if there is able to be good returns, then the advisors, then capital will flow there. And then so as the capital flows, that will theoretically help the market to develop over time as the outside investors come in and that flows and that helps the local entrepreneurs to have access to the capital that they need to be able to exploit the business opportunity that they see.

Now, whether that works so well in practice, I guess it's different, but it does serve a valuable. I mean, to me, what I see in the conversation, what's missing a lot of times is the understanding of the historical context. And I don't claim to necessarily understand how markets develop, but I have a model in my head of how they do.

And that helps me to kind of see how over time the markets develop and this how economies develop and efficient markets develop over time. And so we can still serve that valuable function by allocating capital into these less developed markets. Yeah, absolutely. You made a statement also that I just thought was really interesting, and I don't think I've talked about it on the show, though.

But you talked about how a lot of smart people went to finance and maybe some smart people are moving out of finance and moving into tech and just the difficulty of the competition. Did you feel like you were in kind of an Ivy League credentialed, just a den of ridiculously overqualified people when you were working in Wall Street?

Or did you feel like there was an ability for you to build out a competitive edge? Well, no, I think that within my circle, I definitely had a competitive edge because I worked harder and I think I have some good insights. But the typical path, if some of your readers or listeners were thinking about how can they get a job in finance, and again, it kind of depends what age they are, right?

So the typical path to become a hedge fund hotshot is like you get really good grades in high school, you go to an Ivy League school, you study business there, you graduate and you work in investment banking for two to three years and then you switch over to either the hedge fund job or a private equity job.

That's the typical path. And then from there, you do a really good job as an analyst working probably eight hours a week. Then you get the promotions and eventually become a managing director and then maybe you spin off and start your own hedge fund and then become a billionaire.

That's kind of the typical path. But there are other ways to get in there. But that's the best way to do it if you can start early. But for a lot of people, it's kind of too late to take that path. The personal finance lesson I draw from it is if there's a lot of competition and you have an efficient competitive market, that sucks.

Go somewhere else and find somewhere where there's not a lot of competition. An example that I have in my personal life, one of my backup businesses if all of my other business ideas that I'm currently pursuing fail is one of my backup business plans I've considered is I may start a daycare business for children.

Because I look at a daycare business and... You make a lot of money. Well, you can make a lot of money, but I look at it and I see that this is a societally unappealing business. If I were to introduce myself as a 35-year-old male and say, "Oh yes, I run a daycare," that's really a tough pill to swallow for many people's pride.

That means that when you look at it, then the market competition, all of the "smart" guys are going to Wall Street. I'll go to the daycare business. There are some very smart people in that business, but there would be a much higher population of maybe part-time people, small family operations.

Maybe it's a very part-time focused business. There are some big chains that are working at things, but I would want to go there because it seems like my competition would be perhaps less astute when it came to some of the application of business principles. It would probably be easier to outstudy my competition in a business like that than it would be to outstudy my competition on Wall Street.

Yeah, it's very hard to outstudy your competition on Wall Street. Too many smart, hardworking people there. But you're right, that's kind of the reasons why I left. And I might go back at some point. I like Wall Street, but I have a monopoly on the personal finance adventure novel market.

Right, you created the market. I think I currently have a monopoly on the two-hour daily podcast about personal finance. It's really crazy. Perfect, right? It's a lot easier when you have less competition. So yeah, you make a good point. Right. Another example, and I give kind of proof for this one.

I remember years ago reading in Tom Stanley's books on marketing to the affluent, and he talked about this. I don't remember which book he covers it. They all flow together in my mind. But he talked about something like scrap metal dealers, scrap metal being an incredibly profitable business. Now in any business, you have the 80/20, where there's the 20% that make 80% of the money.

So 80% of the scrap metal dealers aren't going to make much money. But I've met a couple of those guys. And there's some guy locally who runs a junkyard. And I found that to be true here in my market. I never was able to bring on any of them as clients of mine, but I worked with some people who worked in their organizations, and they confirmed, "Yeah, this guy makes a million two, million three.

His CFO makes 650,000 bucks." And I'm sitting here saying, "Here is this junkyard from this guy who's kind of a scrubby-looking guy, and he just goes to work in shorts and a t-shirt every day. But this guy is making a million two, a million three. He doesn't have the target on his back that the big finance guy has.

He doesn't have the high lifestyle. And so he's found an ability to exploit this business." And the challenge is that we don't teach people to use this as an opportunity to say, "If the market's efficient, get out. Go find somewhere where you can create alpha in your personal income stream, in your investment solution, and go find an inefficient market and exploit that to your own gain, to your advantage." Yeah.

Well, another interesting point is about that junkyard guy. Nobody expects him to live a lavish lifestyle. The Wall Street guy or the doctor or whatever, they expect you to... So you're actually going to become... You could probably become wealthier faster in that type of a role, because no one expects you to spend all this money on fancy things.

Right. So that's an added benefit. But the thing about finance is, it's still a good job. You can make six figures right out of college. So that's appealing, whereas some of these other jobs, you have to create the opportunity. Whereas a lot of people just are not entrepreneurs. They'd rather work for somebody else.

And the finance community is great for that. You can make good money in finance and learn a ton. So it's still a good path if you're not the entrepreneur type. I'm struck by, at least in some of the books I read, with profiles of people who work in finance.

It seems like many of the people who work in finance who are the most successful, they're doing it, yes, because they make a lot of money and they enjoy it. But they almost are still doing it, even if they don't need the money or don't care much about the money.

Absolutely. They get into it, they find out they liked it, they enjoyed it. And they're kind of just weird different people who really love the game. And because they love it, they're good at it. And so the money is the byproduct. And so many of them maybe would hate running a scrap metal dealership.

They like finance, and then they wind up being really good at it. Exactly. And I do know some of those people, yeah, they make really good money, but they're excited to go study the market. They're adding value for their funds. They really do get good insights. And that's what gets them excited.

Like Warren Buffett, he just loves what he does, but he doesn't have to work. None of these billionaire hedge fund guys have to work, but they just love it. So if that's you, then absolutely go into finance, because you can make a really good living and make a lot of money doing something that you love.

And that's the dream for everybody. Absolutely. Two other quick areas I'd like to pursue. I've given people, I'd like you to kind of lay out, and I'll give you a moment to think about it while I ask the question. I'd like you to lay out any categories of jobs that you can think of for somebody who's interested in the side of finance that you come from.

How I've laid this out on the retail side for people that have asked me about is I've laid out that you basically have three primary functions on the retail side. And by retail, I mean working with clients in a personal financial planning, personal financial advisory capacity. You're either, number one, a producer, meaning that you are meeting with clients and you are selling products, selling insurance, selling investments, or you are doing financial planning and bringing on clients.

And so you are responsible for the acquisition of clients. So you're a producer, and that's in your directly interfacing with clients in some regard. That's where the highest income potential is, but it's also the most entrepreneurial activity, but it's also where the highest income potential is, and it's primarily a client interface job to help people understand what their goals are and what they're doing.

Number two is there's almost the back office analyst role. So whether that means you are a competent financial planner, but you're not very good at bringing in clients, and so maybe you're a back office CFP or you may be a back office portfolio manager. You may have some client situations, but you're primarily responsible for a more technical job, and that is a profitable position, but it's more of a salaried position, and it has less profit potential than does the producer side.

And/or the third area is you may be involved in an administrative role of some kind. So whether this is a paperwork administrative role, whether it's more of a secretarial role, or whether it's just simply more handling the administration of accounts. I mean, there can be various functions, but it's more of an administrative role.

So that's how I've kind of categorized it in my mind. They're not perfect. They're not exclusive, but I've told that to people when they're trying to figure out, "Hey, I want to get into finance. What are the different options?" I say, "Well, what option do you want? Do you want to be a producer?

Do you want to be a back office investment analyst?" Just simply responsible for running the portfolio. Based on your experience, do you have any categories that you would tell somebody that would be helpful for someone to understand the lay of the land a little bit if they're interested in pursuing a job in finance?

Well, I'd say there are three main buckets that everybody wants. So you can work at a hedge fund, you can go into investment banking, or you can go into private equity. I mean, those are kind of like the three main areas that you get paid a lot of money.

Yeah, you make a lot of money in all three of those areas. I would say those are kind of like the main buckets on the institutional side. So I'll kind of go into a little detail on each. So hedge fund, it's a broad term, but basically you're picking either stocks or bonds or different asset classes and you're trying to generate returns, generate alpha over a multi-year time period, or you could have a trading horizon anywhere from a few milliseconds to a few years.

Hedge fund is a very broad category, but basically you're investing in publicly traded securities that you can buy and sell on a daily basis. Investment banking, these are the people that take companies public or raise capital for companies. So like when Facebook did their IPO, if a company needs to issue a bond for $500 million or billions of dollars, these are the investment bankers and they do research on what's the company worth, what kind of interest rates should we do, and they spend a lot of time in the office.

Private equity is you basically have a large pool of capital that you raise from investors, then you pretty much go buy entire companies. You're not buying stock of a company, you're buying the entire company itself. And then these private equity guys will try to find the companies that they can add value to.

So they'll buy an entire company and then restructure it or they'll bring in some consultants and add new products or they'll reduce expenses or whatever. They'll redo it for like three to seven years and then they'll sell it. So they buy the company, they change it over three to seven years and then they sell it to somebody else.

So those are the three main buckets. And then within that is the different roles. And basically most people are analysts. They just analyze and they can analyze anything, different sectors, different asset classes. So if someone wants to go into finance, I think they should figure out what do they want to do, what do they get excited about.

Is that high yield debt? Is it emerging market companies? Do they love consumer finance companies? Try to figure out what sector excites you the most and then that'll give you as much as you can about it. And then when you go to apply for a finance job, you'll be like, "You know what?

I love materials companies because of X, Y, Z. Here's my favorite material companies. The management is great." If you look at the trajectory of their growth, I think it's going to continue for a while. And then you basically pitch the idea. The best way to get a stock market finance type job is to do research on an investment idea for a few pages and then show it to people and be like, "Look at my analytical ability skills." And then eventually somebody will be like, "Wow, this is really good.

Let me take a chance on you." Neat. Is there a type of person? I don't know what type of person you're looking for but there's other types of jobs. So you can work for a mutual fund company which is much less competitive. I mean all the finance jobs are pretty competitive but if you become an analyst for a mutual fund company or for like a smaller type shop, they're more likely to take a chance on you rather than like Goldman Sachs or some of the big hedge funds.

Is there a type of person that you would think could be attracted more to a hedge fund or more to investment banking or is it primarily more about the interest of the person like you said of, "Hey, I like this type of analysis." Do you look at people on the subway and say, "Ah, investment banker.

Oh, that guy's an analyst." That type of thing. Can you pick something up about people? That's a good question. I know people at all these firms. I think the hedge fund types just really like the market that they're studying. So whether it's emerging market stocks or large cap companies where they really get to sink their teeth into the balance sheets and income statements and they just love numbers and they like talking to management.

Maybe that's the hedge fund type. The private equity guys are I think maybe more entrepreneurial. They have a vision of like, "How can I change this company to make it better?" And then the investment bankers, to become a successful investment banker, you have to eventually get into sales. And sales is not what most people are probably thinking.

You have to go to companies and be like, "Hey, you know what? You should buy this other company and here's why." You have to sell the company on the idea of buying another company. Or, "You know what? You need to come with us and do your IPO with us because of this." And you have to sell them on the idea of listing their stock or going public with you.

So you kind of have to be a salesperson to become very successful in investment banking. So maybe those are kind of broad stereotypes. Right. Nate, I think that'll be helpful because a lot of people are interested in finance that listen to this show, but it's an overwhelming world to an outsider.

Well, the first step is to just get started. If you want to be like a great stock analyst, start analyzing stocks. If you want to become a great trader, start trading. There's nothing but experience. I mean, you can open a Scottrade account for like $500 or something and start picking stocks.

And that's when somebody is interviewing you, especially if you don't have that Ivy League background in finance or whatever, they want to see that you're passionate about the job that you're applying for. Like, "Hey, you know what? I don't have much finance experience, but I spend three hours a day analyzing balance sheets of companies.

And I watch Fast Money every day on CNBC. And I talk to my friends about finance all the time. And I've read these 20 books. And here are the lessons that I learned." People respond to that. Yeah, absolutely. I liked how you said, as far as getting a job, I think the key to getting a job is where you say, "Go and prepare a research report on an investment idea and go show it to people." That's very much, I think that works in every industry.

Don't go and don't play this ridiculous game of, "I'm going to answer a job application and send in a cover letter and a resume." Maybe it works for some people, but it seems like a really inefficient way for me. In my mind, I would say, "Go do something and be remarkable in some aspect, and then go tell people and show people and try to help people." I'd rather go somewhere and say, "Hey, I'd like to work for you guys.

I'll work for free for three weeks or for a month, show you what I can do, and then you can decide about hiring me then." I mean, it's just a different mindset. Yeah. Well, the other thing about writing the research report, that piece of advice came from a very successful hedge fund manager, by the way.

When he was asked, "What's the best way for somebody to get a job at your firm?" That's the advice that he gave. So that's not just coming from me, but from other people. Yeah. But the other thing is you can use that research report to network. If you're a smart person and you have a good investment idea, everyone wants to read about it and learn about it because they are all looking for the best investment idea.

So you can just call up people and be like, "Hey, I wanted to get your advice on this investment idea I have. Would you give me your opinion on it? Could you give me some advice on how I could make it better?" or whatever. It's kind of like that backdoor networking where you're like, "Yeah, you're not asking for a job, but now you've started a relationship with that person.

If you show it to three people, you now have a much better research report, and then maybe they can introduce you to somebody who they know is hiring." Because you're right, blindly sending resumes isn't going to get you very far. But if you have now this network of intellectual, analytical investment types, they're going to try to help you out if you're a friendly person and smart and you work hard.

And they might know of a job, and they'll be like, "Hey, go interview with this person." Now you get a referral, which is way better than a cold anything. Absolutely. 100%. I'd like to wrap up with just a little bit of information on the process of becoming a chartered financial analyst.

I think you're the first CFA charter I've had on the show. I can't remember having another one. I do not hold the CFA charter. I'm interested in it, but it's probably... You've sold everything else, though. You've got a billion letters after that, which is very impressive on its own.

Right. I'm sure I could do the CFA. It's just simply not as much of an area of interest for me because it's so analytical on the investment side. Yeah, you've got to be interested in it. Right. It's a beast. Explain to people, if you see the letters CFA after somebody's name, what does that mean and why should that count?

Okay. There's a few different designations. CFA is the gold standard for investment analysis. If you want to work at a hedge fund or private equity shop, you want to get a job on Wall Street, CFA, nothing beats it. CFP is terrific if you want to be a financial advisor, more of a consultant, you're working with clients.

CFP is the best designation for that. The CFA is three tests. Each one has probably a 40% pass rate. They're offered in general once a year. The first level is offered two times a year. If you fail a test, you have to wait a whole year to take it again, which is just awful.

I passed level one and level three on the first try. I did not pass level two on the first try because it's very difficult. I decided to take it right after... I took level one in December and just tried to take level two in June. Not a good idea.

Not a good idea because level two is by far the hardest. People think they can pass level one, level two, and level three will be no problem. Level two is just ridiculous. I knew one guy who studied for the CFA for eight years and finally got it. Other people study for six years and they just give up.

This is not an easy test. You have to study probably six months before the exam to really have a good shot at passing it. I think you have to study at least 300 hours. I think one of the... is the general guideline. I don't know what you want to know about it, but it's the real deal.

When somebody sees a CFA, it's just instant respect. Right. Absolutely. If you're looking for a job and you don't have a finance background, get the CFA, which could take you... which will take you a few years. If that's your purpose in life, get the CFA because that'll... people look at that and they're like, "Wow." I would like to point it out as a personal finance lesson and then just as an opportunity that most people don't think about.

I think that these opportunities exist in almost every industry to do something like this. For example, I apply this thinking in terms of college. Many people are very focused on saying, "How do I go to college? How do I figure out how to do that? How to pay for it?

How can I get the most prestigious college degree?" But if you are working in the finance space, I think it probably does matter to some degree whether or not you're... if you're trying to go straight to Wall Street and you can come from an Ivy League and you have a master...

an MBA from Harvard or you have an undergrad from an Ivy League, that may matter a little bit. It definitely does matter. Until you get in the door and find out if you're good. But you started in Boca Raton and there's always a way to skin this cat. If I were 16 years old and I knew I wanted to work in finance and I didn't have the money to go to Ivy League, I would consider just simply punching the certification on the college.

Go get the CFA and get your foot in the door. You can get your foot in the door there. CFA prep would be what? Five grand for the cost of the test and all the fees and everything? Do you have any idea? Yeah. Well, the first level is a lot cheaper than that.

Some people go to MBA school and spend $100,000 or whatever. You can get the CFA all in, maybe five grand. And you study on your own time and you can still work while you're getting it so you can have an income. If you're hardcore about finance and you're debating between an MBA and a CFA, CFA blows it out of the water.

Absolutely. And you got the... exactly. That was exactly my point. You got the difference between I'm going to borrow $80,000 and get an MBA or I'm going to spend $5,000 and get a CFA. Now, for those who know, the CFA is one of those things that say, "Wow, okay, that's a whole lot harder than an MBA." You can skate through an MBA without a lot of rigor if you're gifted academically.

But you can't skate through the CFA. The test is designed to illustrate your knowledge or your ignorance. And every one of us who has been around in the finance business and who knows what all this stuff actually means, you are 100% right. The CFA, I have a tremendous amount of respect for people who have finished that program.

And there's a way where you can knock $70,000 off the bill of an MBA just by taking $5,000 and going the CFA route. Now, it doesn't negate the value of, perhaps, the potential value of an Ivy League MBA or an Ivy League undergraduate degree. But if I didn't have the money, if I didn't have the background, if I couldn't do that with a scholarship system, I would pursue the CFA route and allow myself to demonstrate capability and work ethic, rather than saying, "I've just got to go and borrow $100,000 so that I might be able to go and get this job on Wall Street." Yeah.

Well, let me address that Ivy League issue. Some people think, "Oh, I could never afford it." But a lot of these Ivy League schools, if you are dirt poor, you can go to an Ivy League school for very little money. Because a lot of the Ivy Leagues, they want a well-rounded population and they don't want somebody who can't afford it.

They're not going to reject somebody just because they can't afford it. They have lots of grants. If you're dirt poor but you are qualified to go to an Ivy League school, you can go there for really, really cheap. Which isn't true for, necessarily, middle-tier schools. But for the top schools, they want the best people no matter what.

So you can go to these schools for really, really cheap if your parents are poor, or you're poor, or whatever. So don't let that discourage people. If you want to go to an Ivy League school and you can't afford it, well, guess what? You can't afford it. They'll make it happen for you.

Right. I think culturally, we just don't bother to apply. And this kind of happens a lot of times. I remember years ago, I heard Zig Ziglar give an account he made of, he did an experiment where he made two newspaper job offers and the syntax of the newspaper ad for the classified section was the same.

Except he did it in one major market and he offered $30,000 a year. And he did it in another major market and he offered $100,000 a year. And he got a massively smaller percentage of applicants to the $30,000. But the listed necessary qualifications, excuse me, he had a massively smaller number for the higher paying job, but the listed qualifications and requirements were very different.

And it's remarkable because so many people just simply wouldn't see themselves as Ivy League material. Whereas, what's the harm of applying? Just apply and if you have some skill or some desire, things can be worked out. I think it's a good point you make. Well, that's something I address in my book, the limiting beliefs.

So one of my favorite quotes in the book is, "Whether you think you can or whether you think you can't, you're right." It's a famous quote from Henry Ford back in the day. And so if you think that, you know, "I could never get an Ivy League school," or "I could never get a job in finance," or "Oh, I'm not smart enough for this." You're right.

You're simply right. You're not. But if you think, "You know what? I do have the potential for this. I can become a Wall Street billionaire. I really can. I do have the potential. Even though I have limitations, I can figure it out." Well, then you're right about that too.

So really think about what you want and then believe that you can do it and then be willing to work hard to get it. But if you think right from the start that, "Oh, I can't do that," no matter what it is, you're right. You probably can't. But everyone has the potential to do whatever they want, especially in today's economy.

>> An excellent reminder. Because no matter how--I think all of us, no matter how much we--no matter how much we think, you know, I recognized a few weeks ago just even that in my own thinking. I was up in Pennsylvania and I thought about calling John Bogle for an interview because I've read several of his books and I thought, "No, he wouldn't talk to me.

I just have this show." And I had to--and I caught myself thinking that like, "I haven't interviewed enough famous people yet to really have the platform, you know, to call him for an interview." And I was pretty ashamed of myself because there's no reason why I can't call him for an interview.

There's no reason why I couldn't have popped in, you know, and said, "Hey, I'd like to--I brought my voice recorder. I'd love to talk to Mr. Bogle if he's available and I'd love to talk with him." But I had the limiting beliefs and it was--I was pretty embarrassed to find myself thinking that way.

I wound up deciding not to do it. >> It happens to everybody. >> It happens to everybody. It's all of us. And no matter how much we think we're immune to it, we're really not. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> So, well, Joey, thank you so much. I think this provides a really interesting insight into people's--into the world of finance.

And I'd encourage people, don't forget, I mean, the latter half here, we haven't been talking about the book, but go over to Joey's site, Pirates of Financial Freedom. You've got the first chapter on there for free, right? And then the first half for 99 cents, you said? Or-- >> I've got three sample pages on the site.

>> Okay. >> And then you can get the first half for 99 cents on Amazon if you just want to kind of preview it. >> Yeah. Do the first half for 99 cents and read that. And then check it out, consider it for your Christmas gift list. And I think it'd be a valuable work.

And keep writing, Joey. We need more and more in this genre. So since you've created it, you now have the opportunity to be the master of it. >> Absolutely. Well, I'll do my best. Anything else that you'd like to share? Or anything I missed? >> I just want to say you did a great job on this interview.

I had a real good time. And you keep up your good work, too, because I'm going to be--I'm going to check in with you every now and then and see if you've got that Bogle interview. >> Absolutely. >> That needs to be your goal. Within the next two years, I want to have you interview him and I'll cheer when you do.

>> Absolutely. That would be wonderful. I've got--the biggest challenge that I'm facing right now is just the amount of time needed to do some of the things. I mean, I'm here in Palm Beach and season is coming. And every big wig of finance--every big wig of--many, many big wigs of finance are here and will be here during season.

So I've got a unique opportunity that if I can get the introductions, I can go and visit with people here during the Palm Beach season. But I've got to build it into the time. And I just am feeling so stretched with all the different things that I've got going on.

I've got to build in the time to make the connections through the contacts that I do have, to get the referral, to get the introduction, to get the appointment, to get the interview, and then go in and bring the interviews to the show. But the urgent and the important are often--are sometimes at war.

And oftentimes, I'm making time for the urgent and not necessarily the important and non-urgent. >> That's a common problem for everybody. Like, you know, the last chapter in my book, it talks about my weekly goal-setting system of setting smart goals and having an accountability partner to make sure you get the things done that you want.

And then also, I've been overwhelmed with work myself, and I found that time-blocking really helps. So some of your listeners are like, you know, "I'm not getting my goals done," or "I'm just busy but not productive." You know, look into that goal-setting thing or time-blocking each day. I found that that's helped a lot in my own personal life.

>> Absolutely. Well, awesome. Joey, thank you for coming on. I really appreciate your making the time. >> Well, thanks for having me. This was great. >> I hope you enjoyed that. I know Joey's not going to want any competition, since he's created a monopoly in his business. But I would like to encourage some of you in the audience who are excellent at finance, at concepts of finance, and you know a lot, you understand a lot.

I know many of you listen to the show because I've heard from you. And I would encourage many of you to maybe consider adding your own form of media. Perhaps you might be able to take my idea and write the Hardy Boys series books of business success. I know that we seem to be going toward a more of a—as a culture, we seem to be going in the direction of more of a video, multimedia type of context.

But I really want some of these great books to succeed that teach business lessons, that teach life lessons. So maybe you can do that project. I don't know if I'll make time for it in the future or not. I'm not ready to make time for it at the moment.

But maybe you can. So consider if you can use some art, some form of art that you have to teach people something that will be helpful. You probably have about enough financial blogs out there. There's enough financial books that are boring and dry. But maybe you can bring up and bring in some valuable new ideas and present them in a different way.

If you have done projects like this, I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to profile things like this. I'd encourage you to go check out, read the first half of the book, see if you like it. That's a good deal. Pay a buck and read the first half and then maybe order a half a dozen or a dozen or so for your friends and family for Christmas.

And let's use some of this new art, not new, but let's use some of these art forms to spread the message of financial independence and financial prosperity to more and more people. Thank you so much for listening today. I want to thank all of you who have been subscribing to the show.

I want to thank you for that. That is helping. So please make sure if you're not subscribed to the show, if you like the kind of content that we had today, I'm here every day, Monday through Friday, five days a week with in-depth shows that hopefully are easy to listen to every day because we vary them dramatically as days go by.

Make sure that you subscribe to the show. I would love to have some reviews on Stitcher. I still only have five reviews over there. So if any of you are listening on Stitcher, it would really, really, it would really helpful, be helpful if you would take a few minutes and review the show over there.

That would mean a lot to me. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening. Tomorrow, I think I'll be back with a Q&A show. And then I got a bunch of interviews lined up next week. Still have room for some questions though. If you call them in this afternoon, today as the show goes out, I may be able to get them on tomorrow's show.

So come on by and leave them. Thanks for listening, everybody. Have a great Thursday. Thank you for listening to today's show. This show is intended to provide entertainment, education, and financial enlightenment. Your situation is unique and I cannot deliver any actionable advice without knowing anything about you. This show is not and is not intended to be any form of financial advice.

Please develop a team of professional advisors who you find to be caring, competent, and trustworthy. And consult them because they are the ones who can understand your specific needs, your specific goals, and provide specific answers to your questions. Hold them accountable for your results. I've done my absolute best to be clear and accurate in today's show, but I'm one person and I make mistakes.

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