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You'll earn more and save more during the Cyber Sale. Check out all the deals at ihg.com/cybersale. Terms apply. Radical Personal Finance, Episode 42. Can you make money on the internet as a musician? Welcome to the Radical Personal Finance podcast for today, Thursday, August 14, 2014. This is Episode 42.

Today's show is going to be all about making money on the internet with your music. Can we synthesize and bring together art, passion, and money? I hope you enjoy today's show because the answer is yes. I'm emphasizing the music this morning because I want you to enjoy it. Because today we're going to be speaking with the composer, the creator of my theme song.

My theme song is actually called La Mezcla de Rojo. And that song is composed by a man named Dan O'Connor. And I found it when I was looking for music for the show at danosongs.com. When I was looking at the website, it just stood out to me as a really neat project by a musician to see all of his songs and see how he was making his money.

And I thought about reaching out to him for an interview, and I'm glad I did. I enjoyed the interview. And today I'm going to bring you that interview so that you can also enjoy and learn from it. Today's show is actually pre-recorded. Today is Thursday. And it's been--well, it's actually Tuesday as I'm recording this, preparing to head out.

I'm going to be on the road when this is released. I'm heading out to Texas, Dallas, Texas, for the Podcast Movement Conference. But I wanted to make sure that I didn't leave you without something to listen to. So today's interview is shorter than 30, 40 minutes, something like that.

And it's an interview with Dan O'Connor, again, who's making his living from his website. And I think that you'll enjoy the show. He gives some behind-the-scenes information on the music business. And I just think this is one example of a really great strategy that we can use to integrate art and money.

And I hope you enjoy it. I hope you learn something, and I hope you find it inspirational and educational and thought-provoking. So with that, here's the interview. So, Dan, welcome to the Radical Personal Finance Podcast. I appreciate your being here. My pleasure. Thank you, Josh. I wanted to give you--we haven't spoken before now, other than about the 45 seconds we just did before I hit record.

But I wanted to give you just a quick intro on kind of how I found you and why I think it's really interesting. And share that with you and then also with the audience. I was--when I decided to kind of crank up my podcast a little bit and improve it a little bit, I needed some theme music.

So I said, "I've just got to go online, I've got to find a song and find something." So I started looking around for songs, and that was how I found your website, which is danosongs.com. And when I started looking through, I was just so impressed by some of the songs, and I wound up picking your song "La Mezcla de Rojo," which is the theme music of the song--excuse me, the theme music of the show, the Spanish-sounding tune that I use.

And I was looking through, and I said, "This--what an interesting story. I would love to get this guy's story of a musician." And it looks like, just from your website, that you can create your music, you put it out there, everything's automated. I just downloaded the song, sent you the payment via PayPal, and then you get the money.

So I'm interested today just in hearing a little bit about your story as a musician, because I think it's a good fit for what my show is all about, which is trying to figure out how to make a living with your talents and entrepreneurship and how to do things a little bit different.

So I'd love--would you be willing just to share with me a little bit about your story and your background? Absolutely, yeah, and it fits right in with what you're talking about. I grew up as a musician. I went to music school. But I got a degree in, actually, music business, which kind of put me into the business world.

One of my first jobs out of school, I was involved with building websites, actually, for music companies, record labels, publishers, things like that. So I actually have quite a long background in technology, and I tried to take all the traditional routes with music, trying to find a record label and all that kind of stuff.

And finally, eventually, I kind of said, "Well, you know, let me just kind of see what I can do on my own," you know? So I put up initially just an old album that I'd done that I was trying to just sell at shows and things like that, and it was only about 10 songs.

But I knew from my technology background that I needed to do a bit of keyword research to see how the site might be found on Google. And I discovered this royalty-free music area that a lot of people search on, like yourself, right? Right, exactly. Yeah, and so I didn't know a thing about it, except that it was a keyword that popped up in my search.

And I thought, "I've heard about this," and what I really, really wanted is I just wanted people to listen to my music at the end of the day. And I thought, "You know what? I'm going to just make this incredibly easy to download and use." And I discovered this thing called the Creative Commons license, which is kind of a relatively new idea in music, which is, at first I let people use the music for free if they credited me.

I did that for many years until recently, and that's really what got my site to be very, very well known. I'll go into later why I changed, which is an interesting story. Anyway, so I kind of went from this idea of, "What can I do with my music and technology and combine the two and create a resource," which I knew is very important on the internet, right?

If you're building any kind of website, you want to create something that's a resource and that's reusable, right? Whether it's your blog is an amazing resource for people. It's useful, right? And that was the difference, was that I wanted to make something useful and not just really for listening.

And it turned out to work really, really well. And I also knew that you wanted to have, of course, multiple sources of income, which I'm sure you must talk about in personal finance. Absolutely. Right on. So I have three sources of income. One is the AdSense that you see on the site.

It's about a third each, actually. Two is the individual donations per song basis, which is done through PayPal, which I did with you. And then the third one is you can buy a whole package of all the songs for $50, which I do through ClickBank, which uses the affiliate network of ClickBank that basically opens me up to thousands of channels of affiliate marketers.

And so I have those three main sources of income for the website. And it's worked out really, really well. It's grown a lot. Of course, I still do my – I'm still involved in business, but the website is a nice – perfect for your show. It's an investment and it does just sit there.

It's like a CD or it's like a certificate of deposit rather, or a stock or what have you. And you read online about how one of the best passive income investments you can make is in a website that is content-oriented and authoritative. And, man, it really, really works. That's awesome.

Yeah. So is this your full-time thing? You said you're still working in the business world? Yeah. No, I still work in the business world, but I do this as it's kind of like on the level of sort of an investment, a passive income project is really what that site is for me.

It's turned out to be significant, enough to pay my mortgage, which to me is a big deal. It's awesome. And it's only gotten bigger over the years. And it's something that I do on my own time. I get asked a lot for, "Oh, can you compose for this? Can you do custom music for that?" And for me personally, it's not really worth it when I can just on my own time with no deadlines whatsoever, with no boss, nothing at all.

I just can create my own music when I want and put it up when I want. And I like to keep it that way. That's awesome. I was buying a camera recently and I stumbled into another artist that I had never found, but I just was blown away when I found his website.

A guy named Trey Radcliffe who hosts a travel photography website called StuckInCustoms.com. And I was reading his camera reviews because I was interested in getting a mirrorless digital camera. And I started looking at his story and it's funny, he says almost the same thing. He had started just creating his art, doing his photography.

And someone asked him, I saw an interview as far as what does he do. And he says, "Well, one of the things, I wouldn't necessarily recommend this, but I refuse to take any commissions." He says, "I go where I want to go. I take the pictures that I want to take and I put them online and people buy them." And he says, "I never take clients.

I never take a paying client." He says, "Trey, will you come to Paris and photograph this event?" He says, "I'm not saying necessarily that you shouldn't do that. I mean, if someone's going to pay you $10,000, I think you probably should do that." But he says, "I don't. I just want to sit and create my art." And he's built this huge business off of just simply doing that.

And I think it's so inspirational to hear that it can be done and that it allows you. It seems like you have that ultimate sense of creative expression to be able to do that and put it out there. And then through the miracle of connectivity, allow the people that want to find it to find it.

It really works. And so this guy, Trey, he does what? So then he does stock photography? Right. So he does similar to yours. His website is Stuck in Customs. He posts a new travel photo every day and you can look at them for free. You can download them if you want to use them.

You've got to get in touch with them. I don't know which version of the Creative Commons license. I think it's probably a Creative Commons license. And he sells lots and lots of pictures. So for the commercial users that want to use it, he sells lots of pictures. Everything's fully available.

If you want to grab his picture and toss it on your desktop, he's got it there in high res. You can take his beautiful picture and put it there. But there are plenty of people who buy it and that supports him. And then he has other lines of income as well.

He has some courses that he sells about how to make pictures. He's got just various projects. But it's exactly very similar to what you're doing. But his, I mean, it seems like he's got kind of an empire. I think if I heard the interview correctly, he has like 10 some full and part-time staff all over the world that are working with him.

Some doing licensing, some doing not. But he's got this empire of him just going out and taking pictures, traveling and putting them online. It's amazing. Awesome. And yeah, I'm looking at it. His pictures are incredible. They're beautiful. He does the HDR, the photography, the high dynamic range, I think, where it's just very evocative and very emotional with a lot of the after effects.

And I love that style of photography. I think it's so beautiful to see. And what's amazing is, and I think the thing to get across to your listeners who might be thinking about maybe starting something up online, is you can start so small. Like everything they say is true.

You can start so small and you can take it as far as you possibly want. In fact, I've had to kind of scale back a little because I don't have the time to handle the customer service. Wow. Yeah. Personally, and I have other lines of income going on. So it was just a personal choice.

But you can take it as far as you want. The key is start small, start with an investment you can handle. I literally started with one page and 10 songs. And over five years, at one point I had a full on community. I have a blog with a few hundred posts and I have over 100 songs now.

Just doing them one month at a time. It's a great thing. The real key though, and people talk about it again all the time, and it seems cliche but it's true, is you have to be passionate because you have to put the work up front. It has to be something you want to do without knowing that you're going to get a surefire paycheck.

And it's something you're going to be doing anyway. Clearly he's doing it with his photography. This guy Trey is a great example. And the risk is so small. If it doesn't work, and this is kind of my thought about a business like yours, the first 10 songs that you listed, you had already created them.

It was already done. And if it didn't work, what are you at? You're at the time and whatever it costs you, whether in time or skill acquisition or in paying for your hosting fee and to get your website up. And that's the worst that it costs you. So there's no risk of starting it.

And then once you have something started, you can learn, you can develop, you can adjust as time goes on. One of the things that attracted me to your site, once I found it, I didn't exactly know what I was looking for when I was looking for a theme song.

I was like, I need a song. I don't have the time to go and get something fancy done. I just need some kind of song that works for me. And so on your site, you have all these different songs from all these different genres. You composed and created all of the songs in the different styles yourself?

I did actually. Yeah. And that's the amazing thing about software nowadays, is you can buy software packages that basically enable you to do this stuff out of the box. I'm fundamentally, like it says, if you go to my site, I'm really an acoustic rock singer songwriter. And I've kind of just tried out different software over the years and tested out with different styles and experimented.

And that's why each one's a little different, because I never really feel like doing the same style twice. I'm like, I did that style. Now let me try what's dubstep like. I don't even know what that is. I'll see something in the software I'm using that says dubstep style.

Try this. And then you mix and you match and you do a little composing. And it's really cool. And it just seemed it was a perfect resource for me, because I could just on one spot, I could say, ah, here's all these different styles. And then I could listen to all of them.

And I could say, you know what, I'm not so into the country and I'm not so into the guitar. I don't really want the instrumental. Ah, this works for me. I'm in South Florida. I like Spanish music. This one's really good. It's upbeat. I like the feel of it.

And it just felt really cool. And then just with the even the way that you had to set up, and I know you've changed it since then, but I could download the whole song. I could play it. I could kind of play around with it, see, does this work?

And then when I was ready for it, send you your money and use it. And it was a hassle-free situation for me. Right. What have you changed over the years? You mentioned that you changed the style of license. What are some of the lessons that you've learned in the years that you've been doing this?

Big lesson learned was, you know, if you open yourself up to the complete freedom of the Internet, it can be a great thing. And my site became extremely popular. And it's always been very easy to use. And it still is. But, you know, there are people who abuse the Internet.

And what actually happened was I had someone at one point literally download every one of my songs, create albums from them and release them and start charging for them. Wow. And, you know, I had to go through this whole process to get them removed from iTunes and all of these things.

And they were starting to make royalty claims. It was crazy. Wow. Yeah. And so that's why I, you know, my music is still one of the most inexpensive around. And you can listen to everything right there. And, you know, the site's actually still doing very well. But it's a slightly different model only because I don't just allow people to just freely download the music because, and that's just one case out of about 20 things that have happened like that over the years.

So, you know, you've got to be careful with your intellectual property. I think you want to be free and you want to be open. So now I've learned this and I've learned the licensing business incredibly well. And so I'm working on a complete album that now I know all the players in the licensing industry.

And what's happened is all these companies like Rumblefish is one, Audio Revshare, they've scooped up literally hundreds of millions of songs and they claim royalties on YouTube, on all the video channels. Your podcast would never get touched because it's an individual podcast. So anywhere that music is scannable in a system, now everything's in this huge system with these huge companies.

So now I'm starting to get into the other side of that. I'm going to do an album and I'm going to release it that way and go the more traditional route. But I'm going to leave Dano Songs as it is with all these songs here that have been licensed.

And I still will continue to allow them to be licensed. But you live and you learn and you understand why there's certain things. I'm on the cutting edge. Of course the big record labels don't allow anything to be downloaded. There's no freedom. They prosecute people. You know what I mean?

And then I was on the exact opposite spectrum but I learned my lesson there. So it's like an experiment. You have to learn and adjust. So would you say, if you were starting over today, could you gain the exposure by going in that more traditional route? Or do you now have the luxury, since your site and your product has become somewhat popular, do you now have the luxury to pull in the control a little bit more?

I think that I'll be able to use some existing subscribers and existing traffic to my site and some of the social media I have to push a more traditional album. But really the luxury comes from the experience of learning the system in and out. And understanding how to release and how to launch products and how to market.

For instance, I know now I probably will allow my next album free use but non-commercial free use. And that'll be the big difference. You know what I mean? And also I'll probably require a login and maybe an approval. You know what I mean? On a project. But even now, if someone emails me and says, "I just got an email today.

Hey, can I get a couple of your tracks just to show my boss to get approval before I pay?" No problem. No problem. That's fine. It's just you've got to be... if you're just one person and you don't have a staff, and in the case of maybe some of your listeners who are trying to just get started, you've just got to take into consideration what you can handle as a person.

And if you're willing to outsource and how far to take that. And I've learned about outsourcing, using sites like Elance, using sites like Fiverr. That's all been a big lesson here as well for me. The reason I say it is because I'm new to online content creation. So my podcast is relatively new.

And it seems to me that in the online world, what works the best is to create and give as much as you possibly can. And then once you create and give everything that you can, you create a sense of loyalty and a sense of appreciation on behalf of most of the people.

And some people will abuse that and many people won't. So I just think of so many examples where I will want to... I did this recently. I had a problem with my podcast. I couldn't get what we're doing now to work. I could not get my Skype to integrate with my soundboard, to integrate with my recorder.

I tried everything. It wasn't working. And so I was just looking for answers. And I found an article that worked really well on a podcast website. And I said, "Okay, that may be my problem." I reached out to the person. They answered my question really quickly. And then I needed to buy some equipment.

So I went and made a donation through their PayPal donation button. I went through their Amazon link or B&H link to buy my equipment because I wanted them to get the benefit for the value that they had given. And it seems like just to me the benefit of that I see as a virtuous cycle that when you're getting started, if you can give as much as you can for free, then you can build up.

You eliminate the cost for people to find you. And so you can build an audience. And then if you want to be more restrictive at that point in time, that's fine. But it just seems like it would be different for a new musician. And that's why I was interested.

You said something different, but it seems like if I were a new musician, I just want my stuff to get played. I want people to like it, to get played, to get seen, for people to enjoy and appreciate, to have your stuff heard. And then later on figure out the business stuff as you go.

So I think of the technology as a great equalizer, that people can find the content, but man, it's got to be the Wild West on your side trying to figure out the licensing and all of that. That's the main problem. You're absolutely 100% correct that you want to give away as much as possible.

And that worked incredibly well and still will for any musician who wants to do it. Specifically for musicians, just be careful because if you're licensing to people that are going to use your music in commercial ways, but you're also allowing it free by potential abusers who can put it in systems that will start charging other people royalties, that can cause problems.

Unforeseen to me at the time. And I still deal with that, occasional issues where I have to explain and document, "Okay, no, this is definitely my song and you are allowed to use it and these guys, I have to contact them to take this thing down." Will you explain what you said with those two sites, you said something like Rumblefish and the other one, explain what they're doing because it sounded like I didn't understand what they're doing with all of the online content.

Okay, so say you're an indie artist. This is the other route that I may take for my next album. This is what 90% of indie artists do. They create an album, they go to a site like a digital distributor like CD Baby. They're one of the most popular. They sign up for the Sync licensing program.

This then takes their album, not only puts it in iTunes and Amazon, but puts it in the Rumblefish system. Now what the Rumblefish system will do, say my name is Joe and the shark fish, and I have a song called "Hello Baby." The Rumblefish audio tags the song "Hello Baby" and they go through the YouTube, and now I think Twitch has it as well, their system, and it will identify any video using "Hello Baby" and put ads on that video.

And that then, the money goes partially to Rumblefish, partially to CD Baby, and partially to the artist. Yeah, that's how big it is. And there's hundreds of millions of songs. And the problem is that there's audio mismatches. So there's a fellow composer who does exactly what I do, pretty much called Kevin MacLeod on the site called incompetech.com.

He does a lot of classical music. And now the site's like--it's called Audio Content ID. They will mistakenly match classical pieces to Kevin from Incompetech's original creations. So then he has to go through and straighten out every single one, sometimes directly with Sony Music. If you look at Kevin's blog, you can actually see where he actually will have to contact Sony and say, "You're saying that this song is some Bach recording that you own, but it's not.

It's my own classical piece." Just because it's somewhat similar, but it's not. Anyway, so that's what's going on right now. But it's mainly really just on YouTube and the really big sites where they have Content ID. Is it possible for somebody who is a dedicated musician, and let's just assume a decent level of competence, they're good, is it possible to make a full-time income to support yourself in today's world?

Well, here's the other thing I've learned. Full-time income is very, very different from one person to the next. I have four kids. My full-time income requirements are a whole different level than a guy who's in their 20s, you know what I mean, at a music school, who wants to make full-time income.

I'd say in that case, absolutely. There's demand everywhere for indie music. If I was single, I could live off of what I make right now on Dano Songs. There's no doubt about that. So it's absolutely possible. And not only is that possible, but I forget the name. There's this guy, he did this song called Code Monkey.

He was a creative--yeah, Code Monkey. This guy did what I did. He was giving away Code Monkey. Jonathan Colton, okay? He's an indie guy, and he was giving away Creative Commons, and someone made this crazy cool video out of it, and he sold 500,000 copies totally on his own from his own website.

Wow. And so not only is it possible, I think, to make a living, but another guy is--what's his name? Mackleroy, I think his name is. He's a rapper. Mackleroy, I think. Macklemore. Okay. This guy is an indie guy. He's a multimillionaire. Really? I mean, it's like--the sky's really the limit.

It really, really is. You can do so, so, so much completely on your own. Of course, you've got to learn to outsource. You've got to treat it like an entrepreneur. You're only going to be able to do so much as a guy sitting on your own. You know what I mean?

But if you learn how to use Fiverr, if you learn how to use Elance, get an assistant, you know what I mean? Get marketers to help you learn how to use promotion companies and learn how to keep books so that you're making a profit, you know what I mean?

And just be awesome and make awesome videos and make awesome songs. There's a demand, and I think that you can not only make a living, but you can become completely wealthy, you know what I mean? I mean, it's very possible with the Internet, and it's done quite often. Right.

I'm glad you pointed out the difference between different people's requirements. I read an article about this lady, and she wanted to be a full-time musician, but she played some off-the-wall, something like the hammer dulcimer in this very eclectic form of bluegrass. I don't remember what it was, but she wanted to be a full-time musician.

And so she made the decision. She moved into--do you know what a teardrop trailer is? A small teardrop trailer, like a little tiny camping trailer that you pull behind a car. Okay, well, I'm going to in a second because I'm looking it up. Right, just Google "teardrop trailer." Basically what they are is this old-fashioned design from back in the early 1930s, maybe.

Okay, cute. And they're these tiny little trailers that are about 4 feet by 8 feet big, and then they're about 4 feet tall, and they're really light, and you can pull them behind a car. Well, she had an old car. She had an old Saturn, about a $1,000 car.

She built this tiny little teardrop trailer. She painted it bright pink. She did it all herself with plywood. The thing cost her a few hundred bucks. And she tossed her instrument into her car. And the story was she travels the country full-time, making her living as a full-time musician, but she was a single, middle-aged lady, but she's living on like $700 or $800 a month.

And she's so impressed with her for following her dream and doing it, but the only reason she could do it is because she cut her expenses to that point. And that's where it always seems like that's the tradeoff. That's what I talk a lot about on my show is, would you rather make a living as a full-time musician traveling the country, playing your eclectic instrument?

If so, are you willing to live in this little tiny teardrop trailer? Exactly. Or do you want a different lifestyle? And either are fine. It's your individual choice. Right. Exactly. No, and that's exactly the case. Yeah, that's why it can definitely be done. I mean, there's no doubt about it.

What kind of things have you learned to outsource? And what's made the biggest difference for you? Well, one of the biggest sources of traffic was really treating my site as a blogging content model. And I actually had writers hired, and I would regularly have people write about all kinds of different topics that would appeal to filmmakers.

So I'd have them write about lighting, about different kinds of cameras, and I would regularly post things that would be potentially interesting to people who license music. So that's a great way, because really when it comes down to it, and you explore all the ways to generate traffic, the only real, completely honest, easy, highest return on investment way to do that is with content, and that's with a blog.

Right. And so that was the most successful thing that I would have done, is hire writers, basically. That's neat. Yeah, yesterday I did an interview with a man out in Vancouver, and we were just talking about, in essence, capitalism is money, and money is basically a system of accounting for the exchange of value.

And so the great democratizing influence of the Internet is that those who provide the most value, and value is subjective to the consumer, but those who provide the most value in any specific area are going to be rewarded with eyeballs and are going to have an opportunity to potentially turn that into money in some way.

So what a great democratizing influence. I think it's super, super exciting. Absolutely. If somebody wanted to follow your path, let's say that there's somebody listening who says, "I love music. I'd like to be able to make a living on my passion of music," which is always that challenging chasm to cross.

Right. What words of advice, from being a ways down the road, what words of advice would you have? What path would you take? What would you do the same as you've done, and what would you do differently? If you want to go the composing path, which is very different than the singer-songwriter path, I think you need to clearly define what you want to do.

That's what I learned. I kind of got up there, and I kind of threw up my singer-songwriter, and then I kind of experimented with my instrumentals. You know what I mean? I've only recently just got really, really clear that my passion is singer-songwriting, and for my next CD I will release the instrumental tracks, but the focus is really going to be on the songs.

You know what I mean? The voice, the words, you know what I mean? I'm not a composer. That's a very different kind of a guy. You know, like in Compotech. If you haven't checked him out, check him out. He's a composer. You know, he composes films. You know what I mean?

That's what he does. I think it's really important to know where your best ability lies. If you're a composer, know it and be it. If you truly want to make a living at it, then find out how to do it, which is you want to contact people who hire composers, film producers, people in TV.

If you just want to create a web business, okay, then you could do something like what I did. You could come up with something totally new and unique. If you're a singer/songwriter and a performer, write great songs, make albums, and release them and get fans. If maybe you're just a -- I shouldn't say just a bass player, but maybe you're a bass player.

You know, if you're a bass player, your path is totally different. You just have to be -- you have to become an incredible bass player, and you'll have plenty of work. Right. You will have to turn down work every day. You'll have no problem making a living if you're starting out.

That's the key is what is my ability within music. Know it, define it, hone it, become good at it, and get it out there. I think that's really the cornerstone of it. Does that make sense? It does. Okay. Are there any resources as far as for musicians, books, websites, blogs, industry leaders who are talking about the business side of music that you're aware of that would be helpful to somebody?

Oh my gosh. The best thing I could advise is don't read anything. It's all so outdated. Really? Every book, even on music and the Internet, they are so far behind. Anything that's published. Some of the blogs are good. Like maybe just -- oh, okay. One of the best blogs really is the CD Baby DIY Musician.

Okay. Let me see. Make sure that that's right. What was his name? Derek. I read his book, The Founder. Wasn't his name Derek? Yeah, he sold it a long time ago. Yeah, he's awesome. He's a whole other thing. Sivers.org. Sivers, that's what it was. He wrote his book. What was his book?

I read it. It's a short little book. I find it here also. Short little book, awesome book that was just worth -- oh, Anything You Want. It was his Anything You Want, Entrepreneur Lessons from Starting, Building, and Selling CD Baby. It's just a fabulous short book that he wrote.

Awesome. Really enjoyed it. Great. Yeah, I would recommend, if anything out there, the DIY Musician blog at CD Baby. I'll make sure to link to that. Yeah, I like that. Nothing else really is memorable. You're much better not to read anything else and to do. Right. Figure out what you're good at, get good at it, and get out there.

Figure out who's hiring and buying what you're good at and get to them. And figure it out along the way. You're going to learn so much more by acting every day a little bit at a time toward what you want. And then you're going to be the expert. Because the people writing these books are like -- they're still somewhat a decade behind, really.

That's probably true in many industries. I come from the financial planning industry, and I feel the same way. I'm like, "You guys don't get it. Look, you need to change the model." So finally I got sick and tired of it and said, "I'm going to go and change the model." Dan, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Your website is danosongs.com. Any other places that you would like people to find you or anything else you want to plug while we're here? No, that's my main thing right there. You can check out -- I think my Facebook is facebook.com/danobuzz. If you want to just like me. I post if I -- sometimes I do a little acting.

I'll post it there, a little personal stuff. And I'll post new songs and stuff. And where do you keep your blog, the writing? Is that on Dano Songs? Yeah, I'm kind of taking a little chill on that while I work on an album. Yeah, that's Dano Songs blog. You'll find it.

I will. Thank you so much for being with me. I appreciate it. Okay, Josh. Well, take care. Great. Awesome. And I'm really excited for your listeners to get out there and maybe try something new for themselves and make some passive income. You know what I mean? I do. I love it.

That's what the show is about. That's great. Take care. And that's the interview. Dan, thanks so much for coming on the Radical Personal Finance Podcast. I appreciate your making the time to do it. I appreciate it. And I hope that you benefited from this. Again, my goal is to bring you lots and lots of inspiring stories like this because I find that the inspiration is helpful.

And so if you're a musician, consider doing something like Dan has done. Go and check out his website if you're in the need for music, if you're a podcaster, or if you're maybe creating videos, anything for which you need music. Go and check out some of his resources. He's got an amazing collection of music from all different genres and all different styles.

So I hope it can be useful for you. That's it for today's show. I am going to, on the way out, I'm not going to talk over the theme song. I'm going to pull the volume up, and I'm going to play the entire song, and I hope you enjoy it.

If you don't want to hear it, we're done for the day. But I want you to enjoy the song. It's a really fun song, and I want to give Dan his credit and play his song without me talking over it. So that's it for today. Come back tomorrow. Tomorrow being Friday, and you will hear the show, "How I Would Become a Millionaire Working at Walmart for Minimum Wage." Have a great day, everybody.

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