>> You're listening to Let's Talk Jobs, where we give you practical insights into jobs and careers. I'm Tim Chen, and today we're talking about public relations and corporate communications. Back in 1982, Johnson & Johnson's Tylenol brand took a major hit. There was a product tampering incident where cyanide was introduced into their extra strength Tylenol capsules, that resulted in the deaths of seven people.

Their response to this set the bar for corporate crisis management and corporate responsibility. In addition to the recall of 31 million bottles of Tylenol, they chose to be very open in their corporate communications. Throughout the crisis, CEO James Burke held press conferences expressing concern for the victims while providing regular updates.

They collaborated closely with law enforcement agencies, and the Food and Drug Administration during the investigation. Then they launched advertising and PR campaigns to rebuild public trust in the Tylenol brand. Now, all of that activity took a lot of intentional planning, coordination, and execution. This is an example of crisis comms, and it's just one aspect of the broad field that is public relations and corporate communications.

Today, we're going to have a conversation with Alex Lynn Goldsmith. He's currently the Senior Director of External Communications at Turnitin. Prior to that, he has led and driven major global comms initiatives across consumer and B2B. At 21st Century Fox, he launched shows like Family Guy and Bones, and he's led PR and comms teams at Oracle, VMware, and Cisco.

In this video, Alex will talk about topics such as breaking down those various functions within global communications. How do you determine what a company should be communicating? Lastly, career options and growth opportunities in PR and comms. All right, let's get started. Today, we're talking about public relations and corporate communications.

Joining us is Alex Goldsmith. Alex, how are you doing? >> I'm wonderful. How are you, Tim? >> I'm doing fantastic. Now, Alex, you and I have worked together before, and I've always admired how you do everything corporate comms and PR. Can you tell us just a little bit about what you're doing recently and how long you've been in the space?

>> I've been working in communications for over a decade, and I've been doing them for celebrities, for politicians in the public sector, and most recently within tech and working for companies. Started off at 20th Century Fox, worked through the tech stack, and most recently with Oracle. What I really enjoy is the psychology of communications, and why do people care about something, and how do you get people to do the action that the organization wants?

>> That's awesome. It's so critical, because you're at the forefront where you can control the dialogue of how people even perceive the company. I think that's the area. Actually, quite frankly, if I were to consider a career in corporate comms, it would intimidate the heck out of me. I was like, "That's a lot of responsibility to bear." Alex, I had an interesting conversation with someone recently, and I think this might be a good segue into our conversations.

They're freshly out of college, into the job market, and they said, "Hey, Tim, I'm interested in public relations." I was like, "Okay, cool. What do you care about?" They're like, "Well, when I look at job postings, I see corporate communications as one sector of a job title, and then I see public relations, but they seem to describe similar things." In your point of view, are they different, or is one maybe a subset of the other?

How do you look at that? >> There's many different perspectives on this, and that might be a frustrating way to start. Many industries look at it different ways. I would start as global comms as the overarching term, and there's external and internal, and it's framed by your audience. Specifically, you asked about public relations and corporate communications.

Public relations is the discipline that you're reaching your general public, and I think the transformation that's going on right now is it's a world beyond the press release. It's basically what's the form factor. Corporate communications is often defined as your corporate affairs, how are you doing your earnings, your M&A, diversity, equity, inclusion.

It's a lot related to the brand, and often it lives under the discipline of public relations. >> Got it. >> You may have something like your product or your technology communications or public relations under public relations. You may have your partner and customers. Corporate comms often is one of those disciplines under public relations.

>> Got it. That's really helpful. For me, the hierarchy makes sense because then I think when you look at an organization, you look at the job roles available, and you can see how it's grouped together like that. Can you help us maybe just quickly cover, when it comes to the career or industry that is public relations or corporate comms, if someone's trying to consider a career and they're looking for maybe job roles or job types, what titles would they be looking for?

Because I've heard a lot of things around like there's media relations and I hear social media, but there's also corporate comms manager or even events sometimes falls into this. Can you just help us understand maybe the roles that people typically would look for? >> I would use a caveat if I'm applying a media and entertainment and technology then to how we define this.

Let's think about the purpose of this role and then we can get to the title. >> Great. >> The purpose is to look at the mission, the vision, and the values of the organization and communicate that for the reputation, whether that be an external audience or an internal audience.

Essentially, that means that what you're driving towards is how do you balance the stock price? How do you look at perception? How do you look at brand? When you're looking at titles, it can be everything from under global comms, I'm working with industry analysts within public relations. It might be a director of analyst relations, it might be a VP or director of public relations, helping to drive message resonance.

Employee communications would be, how's your internal employee sentiment? It's someone who's a director or a senior manager of employee comms. Executive communications is often touching your informed general public about how are your executives showing up? What is their stump speech, their platform? That would be manager, senior manager, director of executive communications.

Then there's other disciplines as well, integrated storytelling, social media. Communications can live within marketing, it can be aligned with marketing. There's some organizations where global comms lives in the chief people officer in finance. I think the key thing is, I often think of communications and those roles you talked about as the conscious to the organization.

Often, you have to tell truth to power and figure out what is the message to land. >> For you personally, of all of those areas, what drives you the most? What are you most passionate about? >> I've always been driven by the psychology of communications. I'm a nerd and I love reading.

I love the idea. There's this Roman orator named Cicero, who used to make speeches so well that people would be driven to action. He inspired me and so I really love the writing, thinking about new ways of working with influencers, and getting to the why, and then driving it through action through brand awareness to demand activity.

That's why it's been more that driving it, and then working on within the public sector. I'm the board of San Francisco Animal Care and Control. With celebrities, I worked on the launching of Family Guy internationally, and helping to elevate. How do we push Seth MacFarlane out there? Then finally, within tech, it's like, how do you make a technology story that's interesting enough that people want to hear about it?

>> Yeah, I think the last part is fascinating to me as well, because when you think about Family Guy, it's very consumer-driven, and it's easy to relate to, to create a story around that. It's maybe more intuitive than working with high-tech, and you're talking about B2B, and it could be more dry, let's say, of a topic.

How do you find those stories to tell that you feel captivates your audience's attention? >> I think that there's a couple of different ways. One is understanding what are your organizational goals first. What do you want to get out of it? Is it broader awareness? Is it working with your existing base of people that are consuming?

Are you trying to reach a new base? Often, I'm looking at market research, customer data, partner data, unaided awareness, aided awareness, meaning if we're looking at a general sector and we ask the audience, would you even be aware of what we're offering versus a set of companies? Also, in addition to market research, there's something to be said about your gut.

There's something to be said about what's your instinct tell you based upon the goals. Often, I like to get to three to four stories to tell, meaning at Oracle, we worked on what are the toughest challenges that organizations are facing today as a top-line message. Then you have different stories that live under it.

I think it's interesting to use that market data because if you lead with the data aligned to the goals, you'll set yourself apart from other communicators because often, we are a gray art in science. If you're the person that comes with data and is a little more informed in tech and the tech stack, and I don't mean like tech is in the industry, but I mean, how does the newsroom work?

How do you use platforms like Meltwater to understand your sentiment? You'll differentiate yourself. But I do think that differentiation will help you both from a career path and furthering your career. >> I'm a nerd like you and I get fascinated when it comes to data. I think in my own world of web marketing, like things like understanding what segments are engaging with your website and where are they converting on, and either supporting hypotheses you have about who they are, versus what they're looking for.

What kind of data sets, if you don't mind, just double-clicking just a little bit deeper for you. When you're looking at data for understanding your audience that informs stuff, what data sources are you typically looking at? What data sets matter to you? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

>> At the highest level, we started talking about Public Relations and Corporate Communications. >> Right. >> Often, I'm looking at, you can look at ways that your communications are affecting the stock price. That's an outcome-based metric. There are activity-based metrics, meaning meetings and content you're pushing out, but I'm looking at outcome-based metrics.

How are you influencing the stock price with a product launch or with reputational activity like diversity, equity, inclusion? >> Got it. >> You can look at something more specifically within Public Relations such as how's your message pull through, and how's the sentiment wherever it's showing up? I would say now, because I come from a couple of different fields, having worked in social media, it's also looking about what's your engagement within your core audience.

I think the integrated marketing columns is so critical now, and understanding how that data goes when you think about the brand and the video shares to the engagement, and the social engagement from a lead gen activity and sales. I could go across. There's different data values such as within employee columns.

It can be, what's the sentiment of the surveys if your employee is leaving an employee town hall or a post meet? With executive communications, where are your executives being placed? What kind of volume people are attending? How long is the content living? With an analyst relations, industry analysts, because there's financial analysts.

With an industry analyst, it could be, how are you placing within the top reporters? There's a lot of data. With AR, there are firms that have platforms. There's also Tableau. It really starts with what problem are you trying to solve? What data sources can you use like Meltwater for PR, or Sprinkler for social, or Tableau helping to work with your AR engagements?

Then how do you use that to educate and inform what you do next? >> Yeah. That's such great insight because it made me think about even in my time at LinkedIn. I've never really actually paid much attention to the function of internal comms, let's say. But now I'm thinking about it, it's like the thing that really set that company apart was, they did really great employee poll surveys, but they did fully transparent company readouts, the good and the bad.

Everyone had visibility into what they're holding leaders accountable to, and here's where we did well, and here's where we underperformed. The thing that you're talking about in terms like brand building and brand loyalty as an employee, you're like, "Oh, shoot, this company cares about me, and they care about my input, and I see where I'm represented on the screen." That builds, again, a sense of ownership to the company.

I can only imagine the impact of that externally as well. It's finally clicking for me, the way you described that, which is really, really cool. >> It's also interesting because in an era like with the media, where I call multi-hyphenates, you're not just reporting, you're also consulting, maybe you're taking in-house role.

Industry analysts are taking on multiple roles. Your employees are your advocates. The challenge, employee comms in some ways is sometimes the toughest role because they know all your hiccups. Some messages that may play to the informed general public or to the media will not play to your employees because they know, and they know the truth, but you know.

There's an opportunity to really build a groundswell support for the organization. If you have a great employee social media program, if you have a regimented way to get your messages out, if you have a feedback mechanism. In some of these organizations where you may have hundreds of thousands of employees or even tens of thousands, they can really be the make or break.

For instance, I work on a campaign at a company where we primed the market with our employees before we even had day one. There is a risk of a leak, but if you do it the right way, they can be better than any news article or a single video because they will carry it forward.

>> Is that the category of like when you think crisis comms, is that what the discipline falls under or is it different? >> Crisis comms is a practice and it can live under any of those comms functions. I haven't caught response comms because everyone wants to work on a crisis and it might be, but crisis comms essentially often lives under corporate communications and they'll be the linchpin for you to have a product issue.

If you have an executive transition, if there's activist shareholders, it often lives in corporate communications, but you can have a crisis for your employees that's internal. The key thing when you have crisis comms, in my opinion, is you do have a leader, it's cross-functional in nature, and it's about your principles of engagement.

It's the transparency, it's the structure, and you need to have a playbook in place for as many of the situations. Being able to differentiate what's an external crisis, what's an internal crisis, and also what's truly a crisis and what's just an issue. >> I want to make a quick pivot here because I think now that we've did a really good job, or we, you, have done a really good job, picture the landscape here.

>> We've done it, yeah. >> I think having a conversation around, let's say if someone is considering a pivot into PR comms or this is their first time entering it, can we have a little conversation around just the skills they should be building up or looking for? In my mind, I'm thinking of someone like me who, let's say I've worked in, let's say high-tech or whatnot in an industry that's not comms, and I'm thinking about pivoting.

What skills do I have that could apply? You mentioned storytelling earlier. I'm assuming writing skills about that because can you talk about that a little bit? >> Let's start with a top three. I think that intelligence, curiosity, and passion are critical. I think if you start with those three baseline, everyone's an expert in comms, but the fact you're treating every day like a master class and you're doing it with energy, I think that's the key skill to start with.

From there, I think there's a series of disciplines and skill sets that will help you. The ability to storytell, grit, the resiliency that you bring, writing skills, creative skills, attention to detail, I think is critical. I think also an awareness of global business. Then I think finally, a passion for data and analytics and technology.

These are all nice to have, but I think if you start with that intelligence, that passion, and that curiosity, that will help you in a communications. Because you have to learn the business, you're a partner to the business. One of the key challenges when you're in a comms role is when you're entering these situations.

What's a business strategy decision versus a communication strategy? Meaning, is there a tough decision for the business and they need the C-levels or the executives need to make a decision and then communications can talk about what's going to happen because of it, or has a decision been made and then communications can be part of it.

Often, I've had the experience where you are advising different by-products of what happens with business strategy. You can say, "This is what happens if we play this out." >> What do you look for in, let's say, a new hire candidate? Let's put some swimming lanes on this question. If it's a, let's say, first early career applicant versus someone who's maybe five years into the career.

We focus on the early career. What do you look for in a resume to even separate them from the pile of resumes, to even get an opportunity to talk to you, to demonstrate they have curiosity? Because curiosity doesn't come across on paper very well. What do you look for?

>> What I look for is being open to new ideas and a variety of experiences. In addition, have they taking writing projects on? For instance, were they on the school newspaper? Were they in a journalism program? Do they take within professional clubs some kind of role that help them work across?

That passion, curiosity, intelligence, does it come across in what's the story behind the story in their resume? What other skills and hobbies they have that complements it? Because personality is critical. You can be an extrovert, you can be an introvert, but you should be curious. I think you can get that from a resume.

Those internships, those experiences, you'll walk in the door at least to have a foundation for your work. >> I think that is really good. Actually, I want to reiterate that because it's so important. Because we came into this conversation with me saying, "Hey, I'm not sure if I pivot, do I have the qualifications or not?" What you're telling me is like, "Look, life experience is the life experience, and your ability to show all the areas where you've taken a risk, and you explore something, or you created something, that in itself on paper illustrates that, at least the variety, or the portfolio you attach to that, helps people understand that you are this curious individual.

And anyone then can quite frankly do that if they have, to your point, if they're naturally curious, they should have that body of work, or it's not too late to start one, and maybe set yourself up like a few months or a quarter from now to demonstrate that. >> I would just underline that in bold with attention to detail, with any communications you're submitting for, because that is your handshake to the organizations.

The ability, the formatting, it's the how and the what, the how you're delivering it, that attention to detail is critical, because you can show that curiosity, but a typo, hanging sentences, small things, that's so critical. And I know that sounds small, but it is big. And for someone who's maybe five years to 10 years into the career, so now you're looking at someone who's looking at maybe promoting, or looking to get promoted to maybe a people manager, or maybe going or branching off, like what kind of advice would you give to them, and what skillsets are you looking for for that individual?

And I know it might depend on the role they're applying for, but just broadly speaking, what are you looking for there? >> A couple of things. Are you close to the audience you're trying to reach, or are you close to the product? You should be close to one of them, and have had experiences, because the highest levels of satisfaction for people being managed, is when their manager knows how to do the job, and understands the business.

So that would be number one. Number two is, whether it's been in the job, or outside the job, have you had leadership experiences? And if you're not getting that work, like I said, I'm involved with San Francisco Animal Care and Control, and Parks and Alliances, we're working on Jackson Park.

There's things I've done outside of work, and they're almost great petri dishes of leadership, and one of my best leadership experiences was actually in my MBA, where I was the admissions lead for my year, and I made a lot of mistakes. I made, there's an actor that says, do you have experience?

Congratulations, you made a mistake. I made a lot of mistakes, but I still use those. So the ability to show outside of work, those leadership experiences, or if you get them in work, that's great. And number three, showing that initiative, meaning, are you taking training classes? Are you doing stretch assignments?

Are you taking on some of the hairiest challenges that your manager may have? So they feel comfortable that you are gonna be someone who's gonna step into the role, have the leadership, have some of the experience, and understand either the audience or the product. And then finally, that you will take charge and help them further their mission.

I mean, there's some famous consumer packaged goods companies that say, the leader doesn't get promoted until they prepare someone to take over their role. And I think that's taken into account. - Yeah, I love everything that you said there. And you said one thing in particular that really stood out and resonated with me, which is talking about with your, let's say you're on an interview and walking through your experiences, right?

- Yeah. - The context of how you talk through failures or even challenges is really important. 'Cause I think you and I would agree as managers of people that the end result is one thing, it's understanding how you get there is probably the most important part. Like, how are you processing things?

If you're stepping through, let's say, a difficult example of something you had to overcome, spending more time understanding like, hey, here's how I'm processing the situation. Here are all the factors. Here I was working through things and maybe it didn't turn out the way I wanted to. Okay, cool.

Then here's what I did with that then. Understanding how you're wired and tells a lot about your individual. Because the outcome, everyone will say, here's a shiny outcome. But what differentiates is like how you get there. That's the you. - I think it's, for me in those situations, it's about trusting my gut.

It's about, it's okay to fail, but fail fast and learn, like you were saying. Have some fun in the process. Like this is, that smile and that will come across. And across all the questions you've asked and hopefully what people understand is understand your three or four value propositions moving into a room.

Meaning, I hope I stand for authenticity in the spaces I enter. I hope that that resiliency comes across. So if you know consistently, you can't stand for everything. If you know your three to four value propositions, then when you are in a point of failure, you can fall back on those.

And like I said, take all feedback seriously, but don't take it personally. That's critical because that will help you get, learn and succeed forward. - Yeah, and actually I've observed a lot of those qualities in you. Almost just to kind of reaffirm you, going through this process. 'Cause like I respected you very early on because like you had a really creative mind.

You had, you're also very disciplined in your creativity. So it wasn't just some weird random ideas, but you can see the vision at the end of that. I think knowing that you're super attention to detail, you built a really wonderful relationships. Like you had to your point, all the core values or tenets of you as an individual that obviously like your success is like, it's not surprising to me.

Like just the way you're built. And so there's actually a good segue. 'Cause I would love to hear about how you stepped into the world of PR and corporate comms. Like, and from the very beginning, like what, maybe even like, what did you think it was about? And at what you stepped in, did like expectation meet reality?

And like, and how did you even get your first job? Let's hear about your journey. I mean, I'm just really interested about this. - So there's like three ways I want to take your question. So go with, bear with me on this journey. One is where you started. The creativity and discipline.

I believe in search and reapply. And I grew up on the 20th Century Fox a lot. When you're producing a TV show, there's the creative realm and there's the production realm. And watching how they do that taught me how I do my job. And so basically how it all started was I've, like I said, I've always been fascinated about the wide psychology communications.

My, one of my first roles was I actually had a speech writing internship in the White House, doing research and memos. And I had applied a bunch of times, got that. And I parlayed that into 20th Century Fox. And you were asking me about the myths, which was another direction I wanted to take this.

The cons is glamorous, that it's easy, that you have to be an extrovert. And none of those are true. And in my time at 20th Century Fox, I launched Family Guy, but I found myself everywhere in con, at a festival, to being on the law and working on some major initiatives to running, helping to run our Hollywood Foreign Press Golden Globes campaigns.

I found the pull of tech to be more powerful than like entertainment. I love entertainment. I love TV. Some people love sports. I love television. I love the medium and what it can do for society. That said, I am a tech geek. So I found my way up to Silicon Valley and worked across the stack apps, network server storage, Cisco, IBM, VMware, NetApp, Oracle.

And what was always driving me in the roles was a tougher challenge, an opportunity to take a deeply technical concept. And additionally, a VC I worked with at my agency days taught me in-house agency startup, growth company, stable company, turnaround. Learn, and so what you'll see when you're working with me on a team, and I only get to work with many of you, is I'm constantly searching and reapplying.

I'm pulling from the playbook of, 'cause when I got my MBA, I spent some time at P&G in a summer camp and then did an internship at PepsiCo. I'm constantly thinking about how did they do their communications project and how can I move forward? You've seen Shakespearean books become hit movies.

Think about, collect those ideas because you will be able to use them. And I think, again, it all goes back to that psychology and the ability to excite someone about what you're offering. And I think even at its toughest moments when I've worked on crisis comms with employees, with our products, it's fun.

- Did you think your MBA, did it add to your existing PR journey or was it at the start and it kind of got you into it? - It was midway. And many people who get an MBA don't work in comms and it was not as additive as it was for me.

Many people who got it had already done econ and stats, et cetera. When I work on corporate earnings, I use my MBA. When I am expanding my network and looking, if I ever go on an agency side, new business, that will help me. So I'm forever grateful for that experience.

It was incredibly tough for me because I do not have that background. In fact, when people ask me, what's your greatest weakness during an interview, I say financial modeling and budgeting and how I addressed those. I went to go get an MBA to understand it. So I think that it was additive.

It was really helpful for me. And some of my best friends I ever made, I made through that program. And we're phone in touch in the Bay Area. - What would you say are, let's say the highlights of your career, like the top three achievements or crowning achievements that would define things you're really, really proud of?

And if you're willing to share maybe a few examples of areas that you struggled or what we would classify as a failure or whatnot, can you just kind of share a little bit about your experience in those areas? - I'm gonna start with the failure. I don't know if it was a failure, but I'll classify this 'cause I think a lot of people experience this.

I spent eight years at 20th Century Fox. So after that time, I wanted to go through a series of experiences and not necessarily stay at one place for a long time because I'd already done that. I experienced some challenges with recruiting. So I wanted to bring this up because people have done it and you'll be interviewed.

They're like, you're only here for a certain amount of time. But it was about experiencing different cultures and learning the ways that people do things. And so trust your gut if that's the right. For me, it worked because now I have that backlog, but it was really challenging with recruiting.

And as far as your first question about some of the greatest experiences, I'm gonna use one outside of work. I'm still on the board of San Francisco Animal Care and Control. And I was a small part of the work that we did to raise tens of millions of dollars, about 70 million to help build a new animal shelter.

And I, again, worked on the initial messaging and I love animals. And I think the reason I bring this up first is it's important to find your side projects, your side hustles that also, when you have a tough day at work, you can turn over here. So when I've had a tough day working on crisis or maybe M&A, I go look at the animals and how many dogs are in the shelter and I can work on a project like our major donor events.

And it just helps me balance out. Number two, I will go back to Family Guy and Launching Bones, because I remember when my VP asked me to take the lead and I actually said no, 'cause I didn't feel like I was ready. And I'm proud of that work because it was working with different groups and it was pushing myself beyond my comfort zone.

And I think if any mistakes I made early on was I wasn't bold enough because I wasn't sure I was ready for it. And then finally, I guess leading VMworld at VMware and being the global comms lead, I should say, for VMworld, because the model I set up continues to be carried forward.

And I'm always, a lot of people talk about leadership approach, like I'm a servant leader or I'm a change agent, whatever that is, and that's fabulous. I like to think about leadership purpose. What is your purpose as a leader? And for me, it's about elevating the next generation of talent or taking talent forward.

I feel like I was able to build a model for VMworld that's carried on and became Explorer. And I'm proud of that. - Yeah, that's cool. I mean, you're talking about things like legacy, right? And your ultimate life mission. Excuse me. Just one last question for you. So for me, like just to age myself, I'm looking at like, it would be great if I could retire after the next 20 years.

And for me, that then means I'm looking for different things in my career, different experiences, and I'm wondering where I should take things, podcasts included, right? And so for you, you're like, what are you looking for now? When you're looking at the next five to 10 years, like what's important to you?

Is it still aligned to this area? Or to your point, is it supplemental? Is there something else that kind of like intellectually stimulating you? Like, what are you looking for now? - Definitely intellectually stimulating. I want to continue on this path because at some point I'd love to be a vice president or chief communications officer.

I do not come, I'm LGBTQIA. I have some other points of diversity. I like to think just by showing up in the room and having a seat at the table, I can help change things quietly for the next generation. In addition, I'd like to balance that. I'm currently working on the board of Jackson Park as part of SF Parks and Alliances.

So continuing that city work, we're raising 45 million. We've raised 30 of the 45 already for a new park in Potrero Hill. So it's really that passion and that purpose. That purpose is the city. That passion is the work I do in corporate communications. The reason I chose entertainment is I thought it could change society and it does.

The reason I'm in corporate America is I know that communications can change the company and the world as a whole. And if you look at the Edelman Trust Barometer and several other studies, people look to companies now more than they look to several other outlets such as media. So if you can, as a comms expert, help lead the company and be some of the moral conscience, I'm hoping to do some good work in the next 10 to 15 years.

- Well, I think you have everything it takes to succeed. So I'm personally looking forward to kind of seeing where you take everything. Alex, I just want to thank you for your time today. I personally learned a lot from you. I'm pretty sure our listeners have as well. Is there anything you want to call out in terms of how people can get ahold of you?

Or you mentioned like some societies for dogs that you're passionate about. Is there anything you want to call out here? - So first of all, San Francisco Animal Care and Control is the public facility that brings in the animals, 10,000 animals a year. Please look into it. And Parks and Alliances, Jackson Park and Potrero would be another.

Feel free to reach out to me on LinkedIn. I always love talking to people. I feel like you have to treat every day like a master class and I always learn through every conversation. So I'd welcome people reaching out. - And we'll put some of those links in the video description below so people can find those organizations you're talking about.

So Alex, thanks a lot. - I've always loved our friendship. I remember the first meeting I was in with you. It was June 2012. I remember sitting down and it was a VMworld meeting and I remember our first engagement. So I really appreciate you inviting me on. - Yeah, absolutely.

Alex, thanks and have a great one the rest of the day. - All right, thanks Tim. - All right, thank you. (upbeat music) (upbeat music fades)