I've been slacking lately. That's the resistance. I know I hate it because I know it's the most important thing but I'm just like man I don't really feel like making time for it. Well ask me that question. Okay. We're going to talk about it. Okay. Because that is like a really like the most common thing that happens.

Really? Mm-hmm. This is so annoying. Not to like you know like keep you in suspense. The whole point is this. If your nervous system perceives the stuff that you're going to look at in your journal speak as dangerous, what happens is it speaks to you in your own voice.

And your own voice says I don't feel like doing this or I'm too tired. I've got better things to do or I've got more important things to do. And that. Which is literally that that quote where you were talking about like we're more afraid of the light. Our light and our potential than we are of like the more comfortable darkness that we've kind of been in for a while.

It's true. It's like we're kind of like we. Yeah so just so you know though it is actually impossible for the reservoir to go down if you don't do the work. Yeah if you don't do it. Yeah exactly. And so just like just know that. You have to do it.

That's the way you have to talk to the resistance because the resistance is wily and it's gonna be like no no I got you. Like we're just not gonna do it. Well I guess I'll ask you about it. Should we like start like is this like are we starting?

It's rolling. Welcome to another episode of Curious Mike. I am here with my friend Nicole. Yeah we have a lot of good stuff to talk about today. I thought we would start with how I found your work and then you can kind of start with what you do. Yeah.

So everybody kind of knows kind of was dealing with some back issues for a while. Probably since junior year of high school going into senior year. That's when I first started kind of dealing with my back issues. It kind of got worse going into college. Tried to find all different physical therapists all different kind of chiropractors and different things.

And none of them really worked until eventually you know I needed a surgery. I thought that would fix it but about seven eight months later I needed another one and then recently about a year and a half two years ago had my third back surgery. And meanwhile you know I'm putting my trust and my hope into all these different practitioners all these different physical therapists chiropractors all these are even the surgeon you know just praying that they you know knew something that I didn't know about how to fix myself.

And then kind of kind of I think I got to a point where like I got to figure out how to fix this on my own. I got to take matters into my own hands. And I remember someone recommending the book "Healing Back Pain" by Dr. Sarno. Yes. And I thought it was going to be a book about like just things you do like physical activities you do a physical therapy.

Managing it. Exactly but it was the complete opposite. It was about dealing with emotions and if anything about my understanding about the TMS is wrong correct me while I'm talking. So far you're right on. Basically when I'm reading this book Dr. Sarno was talking about how as humans we have a lot of repressed emotions and there's this syndrome called TMS that he is tension myositis.

It's tension myositis syndrome in his first book and then it was evolved into tension myoneural syndrome. Gotcha. But like do you want me to like just explain it real quick because I think people like well though you you go first. Yeah so I was just like so basically from my understanding of the book it was how our emotions play a big part in our physical body and sometimes when we don't deal with emotions you know a lot of times this is this comes from a very specific personality type you know perfectionist do-goodist and all these things we have a tendency to repress emotions not not bring them to the forefront and in turn our body can create pain to distract us from those emotions and so even just like getting into what we'll talk about and you'll explain it 100 times better than me I was like this is what I feel like I'm missing.

This book is describing my personality. I've tried every physical tool to heal myself from this chronic back pain nothing has seemed to work and this just felt like it was talking directly to me and it touched something in me that I just felt like was it and then you know I came across your work reached out to you and yeah now kind of get into what you do and then we'll go from there.

Yeah all right that was actually really great it's really great for me to hear how you're understanding it because your understanding is the perfect doorway through which to like get to the deeper meat of it. So essentially the most important thing I like to say at the beginning of any interview is like this is not like hippy-dippy yay let's feel our feelings and your physical pain goes away and even though that's wonderful and nothing against that this is straight-up brain science and so that's like the most important thing that I can get people to understand which is when we repress our emotions enough it sends a signal to our nervous system that we're in danger.

The reason we're in danger is because the nervous system perceives your repressed emotional world as a predator to your life. So like if you look at the human being our fight-or-flight mechanism which is the brain stem is the same as in the dawn of early man and so we've developed amazing evolutionary brain structures beyond that but in our very nature that that same reflex that keeps us alive that pulls your hand off a hot stove it's the same exact 2023 and a hundred billion years ago whatever humans started.

So the point is that when our repressed emotional world gets to a certain point and Dr. Sarno called it the reservoir of rage so like he called it rage I call it rage sadness despair shame you know embarrassment regret grief you know terror all the things that that are so natural to human beings when that reservoir gets to be in maximum density and threatens to spill over and inform our conscious minds of how scared and stuck and regretful we are the nervous system perceives that as a predator just like a woolly mammoth it's the same signal that goes off and so what it does is it shifts into chronic fight-or-flight at that point and at that moment pain signals are sent by the brain into different areas of our bodies because it is seen as a protective mechanism just like pain is always a protective mechanism I know we've discussed this if you run and you break your ankle the reason why huge pain erupts from that spot is because your brain is saying something's wrong you need protection like crawl off into the bushes like find safety you're gonna get eaten out here you know pain is seeks to protect us so the same exact mechanism is what happens when there's too much repression the brain goes into fight-or-flight it sends inflammation muscle constriction spasm all sorts of different sensations into the body and it causes us to slow down but until we understand that we don't know that constantly repressing our emotions is like causing this process so we tend to focus exactly what you did on the area of the body that's hurting so your back was hurting you went to a physical therapist you went to a massage therapist you went to an acupuncturist you go to a surgeon right that makes total sense whereas somebody else your back pain is somebody else's migraines and somebody else's migraines is somebody else's fibromyalgia or irritable bowel or skin disorder and so that person is going to a headache specialist and that person is going to a person who deals with fibromyalgia and nerve pain all of those people though are dealing with the same exact process of the brain sending these signals and so until we deal with the root of it it's kind of impossible to get better why do you and I feel like your work and what you do is going to become very in the forefront of treating this type of stuff in the near future why do you think that this is like new knowledge to a lot of people and my second question is what personality types is it and why do you think the text those type of people most yeah so the first question I mean we could both speculate that obviously if you heal through my methods and through dr.

Sarno's methods a lot of people don't make a lot of money you know I mean a lot of the chronic pain industry focuses on the surgical model the medical model and pharma and I am NOT I'm always really careful when I'm interviewed to say I have nothing against those models I want there to be surgery and medical advances and medications like I am NOT a Puritan but at the same time those solutions are not fixing the chronic pain problem which is exactly what you found in your life so I actually think the reason this is new knowledge is because I've always said this is going to be a bottom-up solution not a top-down so if we're looking at big pharma or we're looking at surgeons no one's going to be giving us this information but dr.

Sarno started in the 50s I started my work about 20 years ago I think there's a groundswell I think there's enough people that are like you know what actually this worked for me when this other stuff didn't or I heard a podcast and now of course with technology and the internet there are podcasts there are websites there are YouTube channels so I just think enough of the information has gotten out there that the change is starting to happen from the bottom up and one of the things I say when I'm lecturing large groups of people is I ask them I'm like I'm gonna ask you like a really triggering question but I just want you to not get triggered and think about the answer how long would you like to suffer and like people sometimes their first reaction is well don't tell me that I'm choosing my suffering I'm like you're not consciously choosing your suffering but if you're willing to open your mind and look at the fact that maybe there are solutions you have not yet explored and replace your fear with curiosity there might be a solution there that you could try and that's when they look to this kind of work so I think that's what's happening right now right and I think um like for me I'm lucky I caught it let's stay kind of on this path I'm lucky I caught it like 25 instead of a lot of people oh my god yes and they've tried everything and now they're in their later years and they're like I give up like and then they may come to your work way later on obviously we want to get this to a point where it's common knowledge and things like that why do you think it attacks the certain personality type and yeah yeah talk about that for a second before we get into the actual work of what yeah how you fix it no it's a great question and and one of the reasons I was so super excited when you reached out to me one of them was your age because like you said coming to this early is just such a gift it doesn't mean people can't heal when they're older the brain is plastic and it will literally change for every day that we live until the day that we die so there's always room for change but coming to this young like I did you know I first learned about it at 19 I really came into it probably like right exactly about your age in my mid 20s and and it's like given me so much time to have a life of infinite possibilities you know I mean like and in like the really spiritual sense of how crazy this is I was told I would never have biological children because of my back disorder and because I didn't listen to that and found mind-body medicine I have three whole human beings and God knows what they're gonna do in the world so it's all just so like mind-blowing if you look at it sort of like in a meta kind of way but another reason I was really excited when you came to me is the concept of professional sports we are so used to hearing that people have an injury and it becomes their injury that's the player with the bad knee that's the player with the bad back that's the player with this and that shoulder wrist whatever and so many people don't understand that after a certain amount of healing time even if you tear your ACL or do something that super requires surgery after a certain amount of healing time when something becomes chronic it's because this mind-body system takes over which we'll talk more about and so that's just so exciting to me because to kind of get into your next question there are so many people in professional sports that have the same personality which is like super high achieving put a lot of pressure on themselves perfectionists people who it's very important to be seen as doing a good job seeking a lot of approval I mean obviously sports is not the only place where this exists but it's just like when you're good enough at something to be on that in that kind of arena you are gonna have this personality being your own worst critic you know other people could criticize you but no one's gonna do the job that you do to yourself right and so this the reason this personality characteristic these characteristics are so susceptible to TMS and the mind-body pain we're talking about is because there's so much opportunity to dump in the reservoir right if you're the kind of person that's like super easygoing and you never kind of give yourself a hard time and you're just chill that's not a person who really experiences a lot of chronic pain because they're just like you know they they go along to get along and it's no big deal many of us it's funny when I used to lecture with Sarno at NYU our auditoriums would be filled with like heads of state heads of clergy CEOs like it was always the people that held themselves to their highest standard because it puts so much pressure on yourself to be good and to be seen as doing a good job and that's that's the people that get this that's so crazy talk about your individual stories so people can hear your your testimony and how how you healed from from your situation and how crazy your situation is because I think a lot of people think you know they're more messed up than other people or this might work for a certain situation that wouldn't work for mine or I've already done the surgeries or you know we talked about you know a lot of people times people go get an MRI and their MRI might come back clean but they're in pain but there's a lot of people where they go get an MRI and there may be something wrong with them your work speaks to those people as well yeah for me like my MRI showed things that were abnormalities but you call them normal I'm one abnormalities talk about your situation and to all those kind of groups of people yes so dr.

Sarno first coined the phrase normal abnormalities because as I'm not a medical doctor I borrow all the medical stuff from him because it's all so true and then I can take it and kind of build on top of it so I come by this honestly I came into dr.

Sarno's world as a patient of dr. Sarno when I was 19 I was a freshman in college and I was in a particularly stressful time having left home for the first time and all the stuff that happens in college and my back went out out I mean I couldn't walk I couldn't get off the floor to the point where it was so severe that my parents had to come to college and physically bring me home and then I went through the battery of tests and the doctors MRIs x-rays orthopedic surgeon consults and what they came up with is my MRI shows what they call degenerative spondylolisthesis which means that my lower spine has an abnormality so severe that like orthopedic surgeons go pale they like they don't know what to say to me when they see it because it's like they feel so sorry for me and essentially what involves is I have a vertebrae that is shattered and replaced with scar tissue and stress fractures on the vertebrae above and below and it kind of just sits if anyone ever have seen an MRI with spondylolisthesis it looks pretty ugly so of course of course this very well-meaning doctor looked at that film and was like this is what's causing your severe debilitating back pain and my mother was like freaking out and I'm her only child and I'm being told at that point life stops today no more exercise no more travel no more riding in the car for more than 60 minutes if you can even imagine and that when I slept I got to sleep in two ways either the fetal position or I had to have my knees three feet elevated or something like that it's insane in order to not cause all this pressure on the back blah blah blah they put me on opioids they put me on muscle relaxers on steroids you can only imagine everything that could be done for me the one thing that they didn't do was surgery because I was 19 and they said I knew you're different because you're using your body in such a physical way I was a psychology student my freshman year in college they said if you're not gonna go really hard on your body don't do a surgery yet because the surgery I needed was something called spinal fusion surgery which at the time in 1990 they said would be weeks in a body cast and would be limiting my mobility for life so like nobody was nobody was offering that but that was like it was a huge deal but what they said is I had to live this like extremely limited life and they said the likelihood that I would have ever have a biological child was slim to none because if I were willing to go on like eight months of bed rest maybe because like the the weight of the baby on my on my back so at the end of the day that was like a very obviously like a very extreme situation and so I went into like total denial I was like okay I'm like a child I'm not dealing with any of this and with all the medication it did bring me to a space from acute to chronic pain so I wasn't like I could walk but it's probably like what you deal with like they're really nagging annoying yes you always feel it you're always thinking about it yes that kind of thing and so basically what ended up happening was I lived through years of that I was careful with my travel I stopped playing any sort of sports and I'm an athletic person so that was really really upsetting I lived in fear and then when I was in my mid-20s I found the work of dr.

Sarno and I was like huh and it was the same exact thing as like I read healing back pain and I was like this is like to me like this just it just I think it's almost a spiritual process too it's like your mind opens you don't even know why and I was like okay I'm gonna instead of turning all my my energy toward fear I'm looking to turn it toward curiosity like what is this I thought sort of crazy concept that anger could cause back pain because that was his basic first premise yeah the rage the rage exactly and I of course also did not see myself as a person who is rageful I was brought up in a family where my dad was like super super rage a holic and he daily was a daily drinker so he would drink and then he would get nuts on my mom and me and I really found that anger was dangerous and so I never expressed anger and I didn't feel anger that's the most important part I actually if I could have passed a lie detector test that I'm not an angry person I never get angry those all it's being expressed through my back because it was so dangerous to be angry because it aligned me with for lack of a better word my abuser and so that was like a big thing for me and my work on myself but when I found dr.

Sarno's work I moved through the process it's a long story but essentially I found my way to like complete cessation of chronic pain I have not had back pain in I mean at least 20 years I think that is some people's like like some people's like version of heaven like no back pain not living with their chronic pain okay so we get kind of like the personality type we get how this can affect a lot of different people in different ways back pain headaches shoulder pain what's the fibromyalgia that's another one fibromyalgia is a big one cuz that's nerve pain all over your body yeah okay so now let's get into what people actually need to do that are listening to this because I've started it we've talked a little bit about the resistance how you don't really want to do the work but this is how you heal and it's really not that complicated yeah just you have to do it alright so talk about that okay so the line I use around this is it's simple but it's not easy okay so it's simple I can explain it and the best most simplest way I can explain it is this you have a reservoir inside of you it's an invisible invisible reservoir so you picture a clear science beaker that is full of your trauma responses capital T and little t your anger at many things that have happened in your childhood in your daily life your shame because we all have it from our upbringings your sadness and grief your fear and terror your anxiety all the things that we experience naturally as human beings and picture that every time something happens that triggers you or rubs you the wrong way it's like a ladle being dumped in the reservoir okay so the reservoir gets up to maximum density it spills over it triggers your nervous system to inform your brain send a signal inflammation pain muscle constriction you need to be safe so if you're triggered by your aunt Edna who's always criticizing you and telling you you're a bad person when you're on your way to the family reunion you're gonna get a migraine well what happened all of a sudden you're safe you have to cancel and go lay in the dark like it's it makes so much logical sense and so that process is happening every time the reservoir reaches maximum density now how does the reservoir go down well there are some natural ways that don't involve any hard work soothe factors you know you get a new girlfriend or boyfriend you hang out with your friends and have like a serious laugh you go on vacation you do something that you're proud of you know you win a big game okay great it does go down like that because it evaporates when we're in a state of ease and comfort but you can't count on those things in order to make your life you know perfect and so I teach a process that I developed through my own recovery called journal speak and very simply it is an exercise where you take 30 minutes of your day now I know that sounds like a very little time part portion of time to you and me but you know how hard it is when you actually try to do it but you take 30 minutes of your day for 20 minutes of your day you journal in the way that I teach that we could talk about in a minute and then for 10 minutes you do any form of loving-kindness meditation guided unguided I don't care something to connect yourself back to like I'm okay I'm a human being I have a right to my feelings I have a right to my anger and of course I have a lot of resources that really outline this if people are getting curious from this podcast and the point is when you do that 30 minutes a day at least in the beginning it's like putting a ladle in the reservoir and dumping it off and what's really important about the journal speak is it is spoken in the language of your inner child it is not spoken in the language of your grown-up responsible self that cares about what people think or that needs to be the best or needs to be seen as you know achieving it is a rant and it can be a rant like I hate this you know I F this like unfiltered unfiltered okay or it can be tearful or quite frankly it can be unbridled and excited if you don't think you have your permission to be that way in life like a lot of people are shut down for their excitement when their kids like simmer down it's not all about you you know like it upsets your mother when you're so whatever there are so many reasons that we repress you know like my son I've raised my kids in this and none of them have any chronic issues but when my son gets a stomachache which is his symptom imperative it's oftentimes because his favorite band is dropping an album at midnight and he's so keyed up he's got like so much excitement energy gets a stomachache so I taught him it's not just about bad things it's about anything that makes you feel like you don't have the power to express it you put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard and you let it dump you let it rip it is such a passionate emotional process or you get frustrated it's not it doesn't matter no matter how it happens you do it like a practice every day and what happens when you do it is the reservoir goes down and as soon as it is not up there triggering the nervous system in the brain into fight-or-flight you settle into rest and repair which is a parasympathetic functioning the pain signals simply stop firing and for anyone listening to this that thinks that's insane I can't imagine that I agree with you it sounds crazy and in the 20 years of me doing this between my podcast and my lectures and everything I've done to teach and to write millions of people are touched by this and their lives are completely transformed because they're not in pain it is it sounds insane I agree it sounds too easy to be true it's not because it's hard to get yourself to do it so maybe that's what you want to share I think that's just like it is it can be hard to get yourself to do it just because like especially as a man you like we want to just be able to go physically make ourselves better we don't really want to deal with our emotions or anything like that the reservoir so when it goes down and your pain stops and you it's because you're dealing with all these emotions I think some people that will look at you as like a therapist a lot of therapists deal with kind of like speaking yourself into positivity or changing the way you think not a lot of therapists talk about dealing with the we've talked about this like a lot of therapists will talk about like looking on the bright side of things or changing the way you think about something you're talking about like no whatever deep down you're not allowed to express in your day-to-day life go there and and talk about it in your journal speak talk about why the people that just kind of try to change their mindset look on the brighter side of things they're not the ones to get better it's the people that actually deal with the really really hard stuff to get better so let's remember when you're asking question like this because I think it's an amazing question that like the work I do is not going to solve every problem in your life right so like let's say you have like really difficult time with communication and so like you might go to like a therapist that says listen you're so negative that every time you communicate with someone you're exhibiting negativity and they're exhibiting negativity back that might be a great therapy for that person who like can't communicate but that person is not going to get rid of their chronic pain through that therapy because the chronic pain is literally a physical reaction to this reservoir being too high so the reason I qualify that kind of question is by saying we are not here to solve every problem you have like the reason you're you contacted me was not because you want perfect relationships with your family and you know a perfect romantic relationship and and and that because I'm talking to you you're gonna be excellent on the court yeah maybe those things would be related but you're coming to me because you're like my back is killing me and I can't play like this and I'm saying okay let's start there how do we begin to get your back to stop zinging you this is how we got to get the reservoir down how do you get the reservoir down not by looking on the bright side you get the reservoir down by looking at the shit that is bubbling in it that you don't want to look at because your nervous system whispers in your ear and says it's dangerous look away if you know how much and I'm gonna I'm gonna be really hyperbolic here because I think it's important I'm gonna speak in journal speak for a second there is somewhere deep down inside you that actually hates your parents not like not just disrespects them hates them there's somewhere in there that you hate your kids you wish you could drive away and never parent them again there's somewhere in there that even though your ailing mother is like you're the dearest person in your life and you're taking care of her every day there is somewhere in you where you wish she would die because you can't do this anymore I mean that's the dark stuff I'm like it's okay every single human being feels these things you know and like it can be that those are very extreme examples but it could be really far-reaching like I need this job for the money and it hurts my heart every day to show up there because this job is not for me and it's killing me like that's a lighter version but if the if we don't look at this stuff and express it the nervous system has no choice but to protect us from it because when when it's not expressed it is seen as a threat so talk about why journal speak is important and you can't just like think yourself out of the pain because for me for example like I'll just try to think like okay like I know this is bothering me don't act like it's okay just just think about the negative thoughts so that they don't become back pain what and I think it's probably because when you're writing especially for a longer period of time like 20 minutes stuff comes out that's right that you normally wouldn't be able to think about consciously is that kind of why yeah so like one of the examples and I know you and I have discussed this is like if you were to adopt a shelter animal that has been abused right so you bring the puppy into your house and the puppy is cowering in the corner and like you're like why doesn't it love me I'm ready to be loved and the puppy's like because I've been beaten in the past and I need time to trust you need to sit with the things that have been dangerous so in that example let's say on the first day you sit and you put a treat in your hand and you just sit quietly maybe that day the puppy doesn't come maybe the next day the puppy gets like halfway and runs back to the corner but if you just show up every day and just sit and just be a safe space one day the puppy's gonna grab the treat and go run back to the corner but eventually that puppy's in your lap and then it's a friend for life and I think that your nervous system people don't understand because we have a time frame for the way we want things to go that your nervous system and your brain are protective they think they're saving your life by not letting you feel these things and so you get to your journal speak and you sit patiently and you write and you and when we actually have to slow down and put fingers to keyboard or pen to paper you you make space for epiphany right because when we think we think it a billion miles a minute right we're just okay we miss so many things but you sit down you start writing and you can't get the words out quick enough to be that kind of reflexive thinker so then like you're in the middle of a sentence and I know you've experienced this because you've done a little bit of the work you're like holy cow wait a second I actually feel that way and and that's another thing like while you're doing it you're gonna get invitations from like your higher self whatever you want to call it if like if you're a spiritual person you might believe that that's like a divine inspiration and if you're not you might just feel like it's from your gut you're gonna get invitations and you're gonna get a sense like a whisper and you're gonna be like do I actually feel that way about that thing and that's where it's your responsibility to be brave and to say I'm gonna look into that and what I do in my journal speak is I stop there and I go I ask myself a question I just got a sense that I you know I'm not actually comfortable with that situation am I I never thought that before what makes me not comfortable and I ask myself the question and then I answer it and when you're in that dialogue it's like sitting quietly with that abused animal in the tree you're just creating trust with the system that thinks your pain is necessary to protect you and little by slowly you start to understand the way you feel the reservoir is emptied and it's like the puppy getting into your lap like you will it's amazing and I always like feel no matter how often I talk about it I just am on my knees in reverence to its power the way the pain signals stop firing and people are like you're never gonna believe it my back just doesn't hurt anymore I'm like I believe it unbelievable it's super exciting because I'm gonna get I'm gonna get there man super consistent in it okay so I want to bring up this quote we talked about this before we started the podcast sometimes us as humans the quote is about being afraid of our light being afraid of our potential as a person yes I see that in myself like sometimes it's just like you have a fear of your potential we don't know how great we are we and so we feel safer kind of in the darkness of our of our bad habits of where we've been our whole life and that's where some of the resistance to this work can come from yes do you think it's straight-up willpower at the beginning just to get yourself to do it and then you see the results or yeah answer that and then answer also the there's three main things obviously believing is one of them you then you do the work and then the last one is patience and kindness for your patience and kindness so I think getting yourself to do the work has to do with actually believing that the work will work so yeah talk about those three things and how they're related and how you need all three to get over your chronic pain yeah that's that's you you are like covering it all so I'll start with your first comment which was is it just willpower and honestly there is a little bit of like you know tough love at the beginning of this which is like if you keep doing what you're doing you'll keep getting what you're getting right so you will use your example you're coming to me because you're like listen since I'm 17 I've been having this back problems I have three surgeries that have not fixed the problem I have years ahead of me of success in my game if I am on the top of my game what do I do right and so I would say so you've been to doctors you've been to all these different practitioners God knows as a person in your position you have access to the best of the best and you're not better so it's time to have a little tough love and be like you got a freaking do something different yeah even if you don't want to even if the whispers in your ear which come from your own thoughts are no I just don't feel like you're right now I'll do it later and then later comes and you don't do it and then it's the next day which I'm sure I'm sure you recognize cuz I've been there too I'm exactly the same by the way as everyone else I resist my own work because I'm human so the way to begin if you're really struggling with any sort of chronic issue anybody who's listening is you have to make a decision to do something differently and it's funny because I'm in the process of writing this book and this morning before I came here to talk to you that is what I was talking about that there is great power in making a decision because you're like you take back the reins of your own life and when you've been medicalized all you've been doing is giving away your power for years and years and so it's like okay I'm gonna believe because Michael's saying it because Nicole's saying it because the hundreds of people on my podcast that have been interviewed are saying it I'm just gonna believe for the moment that this actually has some credence that this is gonna work and then I am going to show up for myself every day now here's what happens if you're able to be consistent you let's say for example I'll give an example that's not you you have neck pain and every day when you back down your driveway and you turn your neck you get like this horrible zing down your back and you're like hating it and it's affecting your life and it affects every minute of your day if you do this work consistently what's gonna happen is on like the X number of day because we never give a time limit because that stops people in their tracks you put your turn your head to go down the driveway and like you get halfway down the driveway and you realize you haven't felt it yet now if you if that happens to you it's likely because your brain is in that sort of suggestive mode it's gonna come at that point but you had that moment right this is how our body becomes our proof and now let's say on the next day or on a week later you get all the way down the driveway and you start turning your head to start driving away and you're like oh shit I didn't feel it that whole time that's how it happens it starts it gives you an invitation like are you safe without me can you just do you need this pain and what happens as you go is your body becomes your proof and anyone in the world who has ever been evangelical about anything whether it's the newest health fad or something with religion or something with child raising like there's all sorts of places that we are evangelized it's because it happened to you right like I'm a mom of three my children are all almost adults now but when they were little and you got your kid to sleep through the night you got nuts you call all your friends do this do this do this this lavender oil and this song and this whatever because everyone's desperate to get their kids to sleep through the night anything that that is a felt-sense experience then you believe it and that's when belief is really solidified is when you're like I did this consistently so it is a little bit of willpower at the beginning and then by doing it consistently my body becomes my proof then if you keep doing it I have no chronic pain anymore and let's remember there's no cure for human pain you're still gonna get a headache now and then you're still gonna be on the court and you're gonna be in a specifically stressful moment and your back will like just sing you a little and you go yeah yeah I got you I got you I'm really stressed right now I'll get to my journal speak later I'm cool and all at that point that's all your nervous system needs to be safe because it trusts you you've sat with the treat for long enough it trusts you the back pain goes away you finish the game and then it's your responsibility in the next couple days get to your journal speak because there's there's there's stuff building up right so it's not a life sentence to have to do the journal speak it's at the beginning to get yourself into the new neural pathways of not firing for pain 100% yeah and I've talked to you about this trying to make sense of it you know you say it's kind of crazy to believe this and it might sound crazy to some people but the way I look at it is in 2023 in the world we live in all the pressures of and I've talked about this in the Western world the American dream all these things of I'm just working so hard to become something to get to the top all these things chronic pain anxiety depression all these things are so much more prevalent now and they were even 20 years ago I mean they were a thing obviously but it's getting more and more of an epidemic all these chronic issues you talked about in one of our sessions you go over to some of these other countries they don't really deal with certain chronic pains and I've heard that there's some country that doesn't deal with a lot of back pain there's another country you said no whiplash yeah so why do you think that these problems are rising in the world and I I think you come at like the perfect time because as these problems rise and keep rising this work also will rise and that's why I'm trying to you know partner with you bring awareness to it you know be able to be a testimony in the future of being pain-free because I've done everything you know I mean and so yeah talk about why you think it's more prevalent now and why you think other countries and things sometimes don't deal with the same things we deal with here so I'll back into your question by answering the one that I just didn't I do what you gave me to and I think it's important to focus on what you just asked me before you said there are three facets of my work okay so that's like it kind of it's it goes into the same point so if the three facets of my work are believe do the work which is the journal speak and patience and kindness for yourself and all three of those are like three legs of a stool and without any one of them the stool will not stand and so it's like super important to practice the belief so your nervous system can go into rest and repair and allow you to do the work to do the work to lower the reservoir so you can stay there and then to just stop beating ourselves up and I think in Western culture whether it be America or in other like in Western Europe and in Asia and other developed the most highly developed cultures we are so hard on ourselves everything is about achievement everything is about go go go and I think that the cultures that you're referencing are the ones where it's less about that or the ones where it's not we're not so held to a standard like I'm gonna just pick things that I've read about like I know in Japan there is a syndrome and I can't forget the I can't remember the name of it where people literally like drop dead it's it's um it's like an overworking syndrome this is a true story and it mostly happens to men we're in there like 40s they just literally die and it's because they're so overworked and so overstressed that their system shut down and they pass away and and and that's an extreme thing in Sweden there was a study that was done on refugees children of refugee families that had come from war-torn areas that were being given asylum in Sweden by the way there was a documentary made about this if people want to look at it and it's called life overtakes me and it was nominated for the Academy Award a few years ago these children are falling into comas at a crazy rate literally healthy children get sleepier and sleepier and they fall into full comas their bodies are healthy their vitals are fine but they're in comas and their parents have to feed them through feeding tubes there's one story where the parents get a letter that the family has been granted permanent asylum in Sweden and they're not gonna have to go back to their war-torn country within 24 hours the child wakes up from a coma that she's been in for 18 months this is all on the documentary because she was so unsafe thinking she was gonna have to go back there after what she witnessed that her body shut down into a coma so I guess what I'm saying is like the human body is capable of extreme things to keep us safe that's like the TMS to the extreme those two things but in certain countries where the culture is not to put so much pressure and stress on us the body has no need to protect us in that extreme way or in like much lighter ways like a little bit of back pain and those cultures don't seem to have those problems that's amazing so I don't think it's as far-fetched as as you make it sound like to me when I hear this and I think for a lot of other people they will feel very relieved by hearing your work yeah tell them where they can find your work if there's anything else you kind of want to share about like anything at all because you're the smart one here not me go ahead and spit your wisdom um you know I guess what I'll say just to kind of tie it up with what you just said about how I say it's so far-fetched I think the reason why I start with like this is I know this sounds crazy it's because I so badly want people I want to meet people where they are so my original degree that I got before I did all the trainings that I've done is I have an LCSW which means I was trained as a social worker and a social work mantra when you first start school is you start where the client is at so I'm not going to come in and be like Michael here are the psychological theories and principles that I think would affect your life I'm gonna come in and say hey how are you like what's bothering you like tell me exactly where you are so I can meet you there so we can start working together as a partnership to help you that's what social work is and I think the reason that I after 20 plus years of doing this still say I know this sounds so crazy too crazy to be true is I never want to lose somebody because they start listening to this conversation they're like this we forget it you know like I that could never apply to me doesn't she understand that I have an L4 L5 you know doesn't she understand that like I have been diagnosed with fibromyalgia like I get it I get it I have been you I am you I am you you are me nobody would mistake me for you on the street but in our souls we are the same and so I think I say that to say like wherever this finds you however hard this is to believe for you or maybe easier like it is for Michael like it is possible for you to totally transform your life and the stories that I get so so I've been working virtually in terms of like having online offerings for let's say let's say maybe since 2016 when I first published my my book so like that was a book that was my first book I'm working on my second now but then I got the then I did the YouTube channel then I did the podcast then kovat hit we all got stuck in our houses and I was doing virtual retreats all over the world what happens is enough people are touched that then I get received like emails from thousands of people around the world that I've never met so these are people that couldn't possibly be like influenced directly by me because they just saw something that I put out online and these people are saying I was on disability for seven years I was bed-bound and now long Kovat long Kovat is such a huge deal where people are so debilitated by long Kovat people are doing my work all over the world receiving crazy amounts of input from people they're all better all better no long Kovat symptoms and I have plenty of them interviewed on my podcast it's actually another one this week and so I guess what I'm saying is like wherever this finds you whomever you are if you can replace your fear with curiosity and you can just look at what hasn't worked for you and realize like maybe I want to just try something it is the most incredible opportunity for a change in your life and and I love that you see it the way you see it because you are you know half my age like I want people your age to be like man there is a better way to live and I don't have to just do everything that I thought was like the limits of my possibilities you know yeah especially early on I think it's important that people consume a lot of the content to build a belief here the stories here the testimonies of people you know getting better so can you tell people a little bit about why that's important and where they can see your stuff and where they can because I have the luxury of getting to have your phone number talk to you you send me podcasts to watch meet with me in person other people might not have that so where can they consume this build their belief and ultimately get better yes that's great and it's really important and we talked about this when I first met you which is so much belief is cultivated when you marinate in the material because like it's your brain will keep triggering like not safe not safe not safe go back to the doctor go back to the treatment go back to the med and like you need something to counter that and so being in the material is so important so let's see obviously I can't work with ever anyone everyone so I created online courses they are self-directed they're both my website is the cure for chronic pain calm you go to the website click on courses there's one for specifically for anxiety because crippling anxiety is just a symptom imperative like back pain and anxiety are the same thing they're just how they're being expressed from the brain and so there's one freedom from an anxious life one is called freedom from chronic pain which is what we're talking about any sort of pain or problem fits under that umbrella I also have a podcast my brand is called the cure for chronic pain so if anyone's really interested it's the name of my podcast it's the name of my youtube channel and it's the name of my website they'll find me and on Instagram I'm at Nicole Sachs LCSW and lots of new content there every day and I'm just doing everything I can it is my passion mostly because it's created my entire life had I not found this work I would have no children I would I can't I don't even know if I'd still be around because what would there be to live for you know like it was just it was it it's it's just so huge and powerful for me and and there's lots of ways to find it and I'm producing more stuff all the time and my hope is to get it out there I think I said this to you every time I get an extreme email the last line is I can't believe I didn't know about this I can't believe I didn't know this was a possibility for me so very simply I just want as many people as possible to know it's a possibility for them one more question because I'm trying to put myself in the the listeners place so for me I've had three back surgeries now there's some structural changes and that can limit some people's beliefs because they're like oh well I did the surgery now it's not really current now it's structural all these things talk about a little bit before we let you go about the extreme cases that you've seen people get better from and you've even said to me like the body is such a miraculous healing yes machine that even if you have some scar tissue or some bone-on-bone or whatever the case may be your body can find a way to work around it and not yes the pain signal yes 100% I cannot say this with enough confidence and if people need confidence please feel free to borrow mine because I cannot tell you how sure I am I have so first just so you know before I stopped being in private practice I was in private practice from 2000 to about 2019 so I was in practice for a long time where I saw very specific cases over and over again of people who had surgery people who hadn't surgery had a surgery people who had scar tissue people who had things like me where the MRI is so severe that they have like a whole vertebrae that's scattered that shattered and replaced with scar tissue like extreme situations all of them if they do the work with belief and patience and kindness for themselves we're able to eliminate their chronic pain it is brain science if if you cut off your head you're not going to feel anything right so the pain is not in your head but the we must consider the workings of the neuro the the nervous system in the brain in order to know that that's the only way we feel things so if we eliminate this process the pain signals are not necessary now people might think oh no no but I have bone on bone in my knee so no matter what you say that's going to create pain and the only thing I can say to that is the only question that is important for me to ask you is how do you feel today because how you feel today is how you live your life and so it's like if I worked with people that have all these varied MRIs and all these findings that have no pain because the miracle of their body has been able to bypass that and not send pain signals because their nervous system didn't see a need for there to be in pain then what how did how do you even like what even matters beyond that you know what I mean and so all I'll say is this and I think you and I talked about this and it's probably important to mention it even the best scientists in the world only understand a certain percentage of the working of the human brain I know there's a cliche that says like oh we only understand six percent of the brain and and understand its workings maybe in 2023 that's a higher percentage but no matter what it is it's not we don't get close to a hundred percent so no scientists in the world could say I can explain to you exactly why that bone on bone is making you hurt because they also couldn't explain exactly why that same person with that same exact film has no pain from doing this work because the brain is is complex and so all I would say is if you can't believe to suspend your disbelief and allow yourself to let your body be your proof because I am certain that I have seen enough cases over the years that there is nothing that can stop you from being pain-free if you do this work right and the good thing is you've got a lot of these people on your podcast so just go listen to their stories and do the work and I'm speaking for myself - I gotta do it - cool well this has been super eye-opening I really think that like I told you I want to help be a testimonial in the future for this work I want to partner with you and really get this out there because people who are in pain I trust me I've seen the best of the best I've tried everything and I still had three surgeries and I believe this is the cure I'm sure this is the key and you've already seen some change I've seen some progress already I see it and I kind of knew I had an inkling in my brain like way in the past that you know what I'm doing I work harder than anyone I keep my core super strong why would I at 17 or 18 have back pain and I always had an inkling there's no way it could be physical it has to be tied to some some other stuff but to actually you know have the proof and now talk to you it's really really helped and I like you said I've already seen some progress so I'm looking forward to continuing it so thank you so much for being on - thank you for having me - Curious Mike out (upbeat music)