- You mentioned that boundaries are something that we do and that the requires that the other do nothing. Can we go a little bit further into that because it's a beautiful concept and this notion of boundaries, but like a gaslighting narcissism and all the other things that we hear about nowadays, I think is often badly misunderstood.

So tell us more about boundaries and how that looks in the action sense of it. - And this is also connected to what you're saying, that other, other relationship. I'm a person, you're a person. And so many times that's actually is what gets merged. And so my kid gets upset that I say they can't watch another show.

And a parent really in that moment, it's like, whose feelings are whose? Like they were upset, was I was upset? A second ago, I thought I should set the boundary. And now all of a sudden I'm changing my mind. There is this complete role kind of confusion and merger, which is one of the main reasons that kids get actually really scared and escalate their behavior 'cause they don't have a sturdy leader when they really need one, right?

So boundaries are what we tell someone we will do and they require the other person to do nothing. I like this definition for a lot of reasons. I'm just very practical. So it allows me after I set a boundary to like assess, was that a boundary or not, right?

Because let's take the TV example. It's whatever time at night, my kid has just watched a show and they know they're supposed to watch one show and then, you know, turn off the TV. I hear from parents a lot, my kid doesn't listen or my kid doesn't respect my boundaries.

And I'll say, okay, like that sounds hard. Let's get into that. So then I'll say, so I told my kid to shut off the TV. They just kept watching. They just kept on. I told my kid to stop jumping on the couch and they kept jumping. They don't respect my boundaries.

They don't listen. To me, this is like a beautiful example of like, this is a problem, I agree, but this is not a boundary problem. You made a request of your child. And frankly, if you have your, I'm making this up, seven-year-old watching TV, I'm not so good at putting away TV and a phone at night.

Like, it's just hard for me to do. So your seven-year-old probably is just, you know, addicted to what's ever happening. And we're kind of asking our kid to do our job for us because we don't want our kid to be mad at us or whatever it is. A boundary in that situation would be saying, ooh, you didn't put off the TV.

Look, by the time I get over there, if you haven't turned off the TV, and I don't want to do this, but I will, I will take the remote out of your hand and shut it off. A boundary saying, ooh, after my request doesn't work, can you get off the couch?

You can jump on the floor. Look, if by the time I get over there, you haven't gotten off the couch, I will pick you up. That is like, I would say, I'm not gonna put the success of my intervention in my like seven-year-old's hand. I care too much about my own needs and my own role as a leader in my home to do that, right?

Same thing with, let's say in-laws. My mother-in-law doesn't respect my boundary. She always shows up without calling. Now, I don't wanna get to this point, and there's a lot of things in a relationship we can do before we get to this point, but if that's really a boundary, and I have a very kind of intrusive mother-in-law, a boundary would be saying, look, this is gonna be awkward, and I know you mean well, but the next time you come unannounced, I will come to your car and say, oh, this time doesn't work for us.

You cannot come in, and I will go back into my house and close the door. Like, now, there's gonna be lots of feelings around that, but you are now setting a true boundary, and when we say our kids don't listen, those are often situations, not all of them, but there's a big percentage where I'm actually not setting a boundary early enough and in a sturdy enough way, which is what my kid needs because at that point, they simply don't have the skills to inhibit an urge, and they need me to be the boundary for them.

- We hear sometimes that kids are craving rules. They're craving boundaries. I don't know, I was kind of a wild adolescent and teenager, maybe a little more than wild. I don't recall ever craving rules, but I do recall paying attention to their lack of presence. So what of that?

Is this notion that kids really want and crave rules and boundaries, is that sort of a, I don't know, projection that we put onto them? And I'm not exploring this just for fun. I'm exploring it because I think that one thing that's very helpful in setting boundaries, especially with kids, is the idea that, gosh, even if it's a bit painful to see them in discomfort, there's that empathy piece that you talked about before, that empathic attunement can get in the way of boundaries, right?

These are, and they're not mutually exclusive, but these are somewhat competing forces at times. So if we know, or if we can acknowledge, or at least explore this idea that rules are deep down what they really want, not just what they need, maybe it would help. - Yes, and I think, by the way, in my taking the remote away or taking my kid off the couch, just to be clear, if I do that to my kid, they are not going to say, "Oh, mom, you are the best mom in the world, thank you." They are going to cry and scream.

And that's where boundaries and empathy, those two parts of our job, actually do always go together. I think they're actually partners. They're not actually at odds because as soon as my kid is upset, what I would say to them is, "Oh, you wanted to jump on the couch. "It's not as much fun on the floor.

"Oh, you really wanted to watch another show. "You didn't even want it this big. "You wanted to watch it this big." It sounds crazy 'cause you're like, "Wait, why am I empathizing with that feeling?" They just kind of disobey. No, they're two different things. I'm doing my job and setting a boundary.

They're actually doing their job and feeling their feelings. That's actually their job. The only way you can ever learn to regulate a feeling is through feeling the feeling. So they're doing their job. Now I'm gonna validate. And this is how kids learn emotion regulation. Boundaries, they feel. I validate, I hold the boundary over and over and over.

So do kids crave rules? And I think one of the issues is that most parenting approaches have one or the other. And I think they're both very incomplete strategies. If you just lead with rules, right? I don't know who said it. Probably wasn't me. Like, what is it? Rules without relationship lead to rebellion.

Yeah, that's what happens, right? So that's not good. But I see the stainage. We've swung the other direction. It is also not a complete parenting strategy when your kid's jumping on the couch to do nothing if you think that's dangerous and to say, "Oh, you really wanna jump, jump, jump and such big feelings." Like that's not what kids need.

I think kids crave boundaries and they crave feeling seen and understood. Because as kids are growing up, like I think the questions they're always asking parents, even though of course they never say this, it's just, "Am I real and am I safe?" Every interaction, that's what they're asking us.

The reason we have to validate their feelings when they're upset, even though they're so upset just that their string cheese broke, whatever it is, is feelings don't have markers like blood or like they don't know. And so when we say, "Oh, you wanted your string cheese to be together." What we're really saying is the things you experience inside of you are real.

But kids are also desperate to know like, "How far do things go?" No one likes to feel boundary-less as a kid. That's terrifying, right? And so when we set a boundary, we actually say to a kid, like, "I will always protect you." Like, "I won't let things get so far out of control." So I do think, I don't know if it's rules, but kids crave connection.

And I think boundaries and kind of validation and empathy, they are the two forms of connection that kids, yeah, are really desperate for. - Thank you for tuning in to the Huberman Lab Clips channel. If you enjoyed the clip that you just viewed, please check out the full-length episode by clicking here.