All right, everyone, welcome to the official, official Grace Point podcast. I'm Stephen. I'm Isaiah. And we are your co-hosts. And we have been in this series, Why the Hate? Answering the question, why our church gets so much hate online. We've been talking about a number of things, and we're kind of nearing the end of our discussion.

And so for sort of the last segment or episode in this series, we want to talk about how to respond, how to respond. Like, what do you do with all this online criticism? Yeah, so I want to get a little personal and just talk about, like, I don't know if this is necessarily, like, prescriptive for everybody, but at least for us, like, how have we responded?

And I think we've responded in pretty different ways. Yeah, but before we get into that, I mean, I just want to point out that this is not just like a question or issue that, like, we face as a church. Because I think this is just a question that, like, a bunch of pastors are facing.

You know, I think it's pretty clear that pastors have had it pretty rough. And I mean, it's not just pastors, but companies, like, everyone seems to have their share of online criticism. Yeah, there was that recent Barna survey about how 39% of pastors are considering quitting ministry. And number, like, I think four reason or something was, I think number three reason was increased criticism.

Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, I recently watched this podcast between Rick Warren and Kerry Newhoff. You know, he's retired from Saddleback. And one of the big questions is, like, you got a lot of online criticism. How did you handle that? And he had a really great answer. And we can link that in the show notes.

But yeah, there's a little bit out there about how to respond. But I think that is a big question mark. Wait, what did he say? We're going to be curious. Oh, I mean, just in a nutshell. Oh, yeah. In a nutshell, he says, basically, like, he has this, like, what he says is, oh, that guy said that about me?

Well, I have nothing but respect for that. For him. Yeah, for him. Yeah, yeah. And it's like this very, you know, it's this amazing thing that he does. Very gracious. Yeah. So it's a question that everyone's facing. It's a question that, like, a lot of us have. And then I think it's a question a lot of people have about grace pointers, like people in grace, like, how are you guys responding?

You know, like, do you guys even know? And yes, we do know, right? I hope you can, you know, that's clear. And so, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of within that context that we're answering. But yeah, I think we can share how we personally have been responding to start there.

Yes, I can, I can start. Yeah, you can jump in. Yeah, we have very different responses. Very different. I mean, for me, I first kind of stumbled across this, I think, as a senior in high school. And back then, as is the case now, but most of it was about my parents, very personal.

Yeah. And so, I mean, just emotionally, it was bewildering. It was, I felt a lot of things, anger, sadness, fear, this kind of just like a, like this physical, like churning of the stomach that you experience. And a lot of people say this when they're like the main character for the day on Twitter or whatever, like you experience this kind of like physiological kind of reaction.

I just didn't know what to do with it. You know, I tried responding, you know, under my own name and people didn't believe it was me. Actually, someone thought it was someone else using me as a pseudonym, person. But it took me a while to process that. And I mean, I think, I think at the time, the way I dealt with that was, okay, like, this is, this is, I guess, the nature of the internet, maybe, or these people just don't understand what we're trying to do.

And then I think over the years, I mean, that view has gotten more like nuanced and there's been kind of other things there, but what about you, Steven? Like, when did you first encounter it, if at all? And yeah, well, I mean, honestly, like I just to comment on what you just said, like, I can't imagine how I responded as a 17 year old.

Like, that's just like, you're from the cortex, not fully developed, you know, and just like emotions and everything. So man, I can't imagine. But for me, I think I mentioned this earlier episode, but came across as a freshman. And I was like, what? Nah, like, this is not my experience.

And so I just quickly like brushed it. And, and it was interesting, like being at Berkeley and encountering other freshmen who had read it and kind of getting into like debates with them, actually, just like what, you know, and, and, and really defending our church, you know, um, as a gung ho freshman, you know, um, over the years, just didn't really think much about it until like, yeah, actually pretty recently, right before we got sent out to Philly.

And there was sort of another big wave of criticism. Yeah. And, um, you know, like it was, that one was, that one hit closer to home because it had been so many years and I've been like really invested in ministry and, and it was just, everything was just a lot more personal for me.

And I kind of went into a little bit of a tailspin personally. I wasn't like breaking down or anything, but it was just sort of really disorienting because, um, yeah, I shared this in a previous episode too. Like I started thinking about things that I had done and said, and replaying those over and over and over and over in my mind.

And I ended up kind of in a dark place and it's a kind of talking to you and following up with some of these guys, um, that I was wondering about, you know, where we were at in these conversations, all of them still at our church. And, and then it even took me talking to someone who had graduated and went home, you know, and, and I had actually, um, for that particular instance, like, I don't think he would mind me sharing it.

Um, but it was basically like, we had had like a little bit of a tension conflict and it kind of got resolved, but not really. And then he, and then he, and then he, um, and then he, well, he went under another leader actually for a little bit and then he went home and he had asked to like basically meet up and just kind of clear the air before he went home.

And I was in the middle of like something busy and I let the ball drop and he was really hurt by that. And, and then actually it was, um, it was, he, he didn't bring it up with me directly because he was understandably like really hurt. And it was, um, actually, uh, one of, it was, it was, uh, I don't want to name any names, but, but it was someone at our church who brought it up with me.

Hey, I heard like this happened from like, he had heard and, and he was like, Hey, what happened with this? Right. And I was like, oh man, I messed up. You know, so I reached out to him. And so there was kind of this long process for me and, um, and I came out of it better, came out of it learning a lot and, and kind of, I think it did a lot of good for me, but where I'm at right now is knowing kind of how dark I can get and what a place I can get.

I just don't read it. I just, it's, I don't, I can't. You know, and, um, it's not because I'm like, la, la, la, la, la, you know, I don't want to know. It's, it's just, yeah, I'm already a dramatic emotional guy as it is. A lot of high highs, a lot of low, low, a lot of low lows, you know, and it doesn't take much for me to cry or whatever.

Yeah. So that's, that's how I handle it. Okay. Yeah. No, I mean, I think that's helpful because I think it illustrates like, I, I, hopefully no one takes this episode to say like, hey, there's just this crazy phenomenon out there. It's totally inexplicable. We've never made mistakes. Right. So just ignore it.

Like, that's not what we're going to say. That's not, that's not going to be our angle. Cause I don't think that's true. Like, yeah, we make mistakes as leaders. We make mistakes. And I mean, I'm thankful for you sharing that and kind of bearing your soul there. But yeah, like for sure, we make mistakes sometimes totally unintentionally.

Sometimes we look back and like, oh, my motivations were not right there. Right. And that's just true. We're sinners. And I don't think any of us would deny that. And we sin against people as leaders. So please don't take any of what we're about to say as like, oh, there's no such thing as hurt.

And there's no such thing as mistakes. No. Yeah. It's like, I, I like, I think what I was doing was I was kind of mourning a little bit, actually. And during that emotional tailspin, I was mourning kind of like just the brokenness in general of the world. I was mourning like how people get spooked and, you know, people who are interested in Christianity get spooked and they decide not to seek anymore because of, you know, these criticisms that they read.

I was mourning just the state of Christianity and the internet, all that stuff. And then I was learning. Right. And, and, and, you know, and then I kind of, after that, it was just sort of like, well, I'm going to keep obeying my calling to preach the gospel and I'm just going to trust and I'm not going to stop that.

Right. So I, yeah, totally. Like that's hope people know that we know and we hear it. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I want to talk about my experience. Yeah. Yeah. Cause we're very, we're very different. I think, um, I mentioned this before, but yeah, Steven is a lot more confrontational than I am.

Which is because I'm like on the more emotionals. Like, this is so weird. And you're much friendlier and nicer than me. But, um, so for me, when I read the, the, the stuff online, actually, my initial reaction is not like inward, like, Oh, have I done this? Um, it's kind of like, who did this stuff, you know?

And I, and I kind of like, I, I, I kind of feel for the posters actually. And for the people who write stuff, like, did this happen? Like, what the heck, if this happened, I'm angry, you know, and I want to, and I want to get to the bottom of this.

Yeah. Um, and I mean, not a hundred percent, some of it, some of it I read, I'm like, uh, that kind of sounded like it was your fault, man. And you know, so it's, it's mixed obviously, but there's a fair amount of stuff I read. I'm like, yo, if, if what you're saying is true, right?

Yeah. You're owed an apology. Yeah. There are times where you've talked about this stuff. Yeah. And I'm like, who's sad are you? Yeah. A little bit of that. A little bit. And I mean, I think I, I'm kind of like that. I kind of err on that direction. I'm sort of like a, you know, I don't know, maybe in another life, I would have been like a social justice warrior or something, but I'm, I'm kind of like, I get up in arms about things.

And, um, so like for me, I, I feel for the people who write this stuff and I do wonder, is this true? Yeah. And I, you know, I've confronted, you know, my dad a couple of times and just differently than like, Hey, is this true? And, um, I've also gone onto the Reddit actually.

So I kind of took a different approach and I wanted to engage with people and, and I posted anonymously for a while. And most people have probably figured out my handle by now. Um, and it wasn't a long time. I think it was maybe like a month or two where I was kind of actively posting and trying to talk to people.

And a couple of things that I did, I went on there and I said, Hey, if you want to talk, um, if you're looking for reconciliation, if you want an apology or you think you're owed an apology, please reach out to me. I'm a staff at Grace Point, you know, for my own reasons, I don't want to reveal my name right now.

Um, but let's talk. And I would love to try and set something up and try to get to the bottom of it. Yeah. Um, yeah. Go through the Matthew 18. Yeah. And there was, it was interesting. There's a variety of reactions. You know, some people were like, wow, I respect that.

Thank you. Um, but, um, for the most part, actually almost uniformly other than one person, nobody actually took me up on that for various reasons. Some people, um, said, you know, like, I just don't want anything to do with Grace Point. I'm not interested in reconciliation anymore, um, which I get.

Um, and then some people like, I don't trust you. Cause I don't know who you are. Some people, it's just, they didn't believe that this would do any good. Like, ah, like, I don't think talking to anyone will just help. I'm just cynical about that. And some people are just simply not interested in reconciliation.

Like, that's not what I'm after. I'm just here to, um, you know, air my grievances and heal. Um, so, I mean, I, I guess in that way, I felt like, okay, I tried, I did try to talk to people. Um, and, and often when I, when I would read a story, I would go and try to get to the bottom of it.

And, and, you know, as is the case with most things in life, the answers were complicated, right? It wasn't just like one thing. It wasn't like, oh, I uncovered this treasure trove of like dirty secrets. It wasn't like that. Some, sometimes when I talked to the other party involved at, you know, as best I can ascertain, cause most of these are anonymous, but you know, when I would talk to people about it, it'd be like, that never happened.

I don't remember that, which, you know, I, I believe that they don't remember that. Um, some people would, sometimes people would say, oh yeah, you know, that time, you know, I was too much. Yeah. You know, I was too harsh. I really regret that, you know, and sometimes it was just complicated.

It's like, oh, well there's truth to that, but there's more to that story. You know, they would give me other contexts and things. And again, I don't want to get into any details, but, um, I guess all that to say, like, it wasn't neat. It wasn't tidy. Right. Um, and I don't know.

I, I feel like also, I think my experience of doing this also was that it was really hard to have any like nuanced discussion. Hmm. Cause I'm, I, I mean, I'm not going to fake it, you know, I'm not going to go on here and just say, oh man, you're totally right.

And I'm totally in the wrong and grace point is this evil thing. And I'm sorry. Yeah. But like, cause I don't actually believe that I believe that every story has two sides. And when I would try to get into that and try to like get detail or try to present like an alternative view of the facts that they were talking about, I really got blasted, you know, they called me, they said I was gaslighting.

They said I was victim blaming or victim shaming, you know? Um, and I, in essence, it just, it just felt like there was no, and you know, they said, you're, you're, you're refusing to listen. You should just apologize. Right. Like I told me that. And at the end of the day, it just felt like there was no interest in like actual discussing discussion.

They just wanted unqualified admission that you and grace point are just entirely in the wrong. And again, like, I mean, I get the emotion behind that. Like if you're hurt, you're hurt, you know? And I don't deny that that's the case. Cause I mean, obviously these emotions are real, right?

You're feeling something, but at the same time, I do feel like, well, there has to be some nuance to this discussion. You know, we have to be able to present our side, have to be able to defend ourselves. And that isn't, and I mean, there's a really good, um, article on the gospel coalition website about this.

It's called towards a better discussion about abuse or something like that. Yeah. Kevin DeYoung. Yeah. Kevin, we'll put the, we'll put the link in it and I'm not going to go into it. Cause I mean, I think he, he, he does a really good job of just talking about this, but, but there's kind of this overall phenomenon in our culture where let's like, when, whenever there's an allegation of like something wrong done to me immediately it's assumed that the allegation is entirely a hundred percent true.

And unless you just admit fault and advocate or advocate for that person, depending on who you are, right. Then you're part of the problem. Yeah. It's kind of like a guilty until proven innocent. Yeah. Like that, that's how it felt. And I mean, so I came away from that period and eventually I just stopped.

Cause kind of like you, it started to put me in a dark place and you know, my wife was saying, man, you're, you're just, you're getting dark because of this. I pulled out of that and I stopped. And I think my takeaway are like, it's just hard. Like it's, it's not, I mean, if, if, if we were, you know, face-to-face real people, we could just talk about it, but with Reddit, like it's anonymous.

There's just so many complicating factors. Not everyone agrees. So it's not like there's one official list of grievances against grace point on there or anything. Yeah. Um, there's contradictions. Yeah. People, people say one thing, another, another group says another thing. There's no kind of set of shared facts that everyone that we can all agree on.

There's no desire to really talk civilly. Um, and so again, like have we done wrong? Yes, for sure. Like we've made mistakes. I feel like in my experience, I've been treated unfairly or overly harshly by a leader. So it's not like I'm pretending that this never happens for sure.

It's just that I personally don't see a way just given kind of the way things are in the online world. I don't see a way to fix that personally. Like I tried, I mean, I'm just one person obviously, but it just felt very like it didn't, it didn't move the needle at all.

It didn't help. Like there was no progress towards reconciliation. And, um, I, I don't know. So, so, so given that like kind of experience and you're just kind of that, that was your takeaway meant like, where are you right now? Cause that was a little bit ago. Yeah. You know, so if you were to just kind of, um, I think, I think what I've concluded is like, I want to, I want, I want to be blameless in the sense of like, Hey, I'm going to put myself out here.

If you want to talk, if you were interested in reconciliation, here's how to do it. You know, and I want to have that avenue always open. I want to keep that door always open. But I kind of do think, well, the ball is on the aggrieved person's court to speak up because they're the anonymous ones.

We don't know who they are. Right. In the case of non anonymous ones, maybe a little different, but for the most part, they're anonymous. Right. And once that door is there and people know it's there, then I just have to move forward and keep serving God, you know, and I need to pray for my enemies.

Cause that's what Jesus commands. I need to continue to love them, but I need to move forward and keep on serving God because life is just a lot bigger than the mistakes we've made. life is just a lot bigger than what's on the internet. And there's a lot of people out there who don't know Jesus and need me and need other Christians to go and tell them about God's love.

And you know, I can't, I can't solve other people's problems for them. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that's where I am. And I don't know if, if there was one, go ahead. Yeah. No, I, I mean, I was just going to say like, so between me and Isaiah, there's, there's a big spectrum.

Right. And I'm definitely in that. Like, I'm just, I'm not, you know, you heard my response and Isaiah's got another response. And I think in our church there's that, there's everything in between and all over the place. Like, I think, I don't think there's anyone at our church who's like not affected by this.

Oh, you know, like, I think, I think we, we collectively, as a body are just like bearing this right to varying degrees, but like everyone's just sort of like, oh man, you know, and, um, and, and yeah, it's, it's not like it's something that we're not, I guess what I'm trying to say is we're not some machine, you know, some institution that just sort of like shrugs it off and moves on.

It's not a shrug off, move on kind of thing. It's just sort of like, oh, it's there. And we just try to walk graciously forward, you know, with it. Yeah. So yeah. I mean, and so maybe just to conclude this, this episode and sorry, I know it was a little heavy, but if, if I could just speak to like the Grace Point people who are listening to this podcast and Steven, maybe if you want to give you two cents too, but my advice to you, it's a little weird, but I'm going to quote Harry Potter, you know, and episode two, book two, Chamber of Secrets, you know, Mr.

Weasley is kind of reprimanding his daughter. Like, how could you do this thing and, you know, get caught up with this crazy diary and get cursed. And he says, "What have I always told you? Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain." Kind of this weird, and I thought it was weird.

It's kind of a weird internet analogy if you think about it. But like, at the end of the day, there's flesh and blood people right in front of you. Yeah. And don't allow anonymous invisible people on the internet to define your reality more than they do. I think that would be my, I'm not saying ignore those people.

I'm not saying what they have to say is totally invalid. Right. But there's flesh and blood people in front of you that God wants to, wants you to love, that God has put in your life to love you. Right. And if you got to weigh those two things, I mean, the flesh and blood people should win out every time.

So I think that would be my word. You know, and we know, like anonymous people online, it's like, yeah, I feel for them. But at the same time, it's the source of a lot of what's wrong with our world, I think, right? Like Wreck-It Ralph too, you know, don't go to the comments section.

Everybody knows, right? It's kind of human nature. Yeah. You want to see the worst of human nature, give them a mask, you know, and allow them to hide their identity. And it's like the purge kind of, okay, sorry. I don't mean to compare those people to the purge, but I'm just saying like, like anonymity brings out the worst in us.

And, and like, if I'm going to be really straight, I'm just going to just be really straight. Like, here's one thing I know with a fair amount of confidence. I don't think anyone who really reads the Bible and who really like kind of understands the heart of God can say with a clear conscience, you know what, I think what these people are doing really honors Jesus.

Like, I don't like, no matter what hurt you've gone through, no matter what hurt you've gone through, I don't think Jesus would anonymously attack fellow Christians on the internet. Face to face, maybe, you know, he called out the Pharisees for sure. Anonymously tearing down people on the internet. I just don't think that's what Jesus would do.

Like, so whatever else may be true, you may be wrong. You probably were wrong for sure. That doesn't make what you do. Right. And I think there's a culture, there's this sort of a cultural trend these days where if you've been hurt, then it justifies everything you do. That's not Bible, right?

That's not biblical. We're all sinners. We've all sinned. Right. And so I like, and again, I don't say this to attack those people. I'm just telling like, hey, as to the, my message to the fellow Grace Point people listening to this podcast, like at least take solace in that, right?

These are not messengers from heaven, right? Like what they're doing is not honoring to God. And I can say that with a fair amount of confidence. So yeah, try to reconcile if possible. Apologize if you should, right? Try to make things right. But if you can't, right, if you can't, then move on with life and prioritize the flesh and blood people in front of you.

That's what I would say. Yeah. And, and just speaking from my experience, like that, that process of like trying to seek reconciliation and apologize, all that, you know, I went through that and it was really good. It was really painful, really humbling. But I'm thankful I went through that.

I hope I won't ever have to go through that again, but I probably will, you know, and it'll be good for me then too, because I'm a sinner, like you said. So, you know, I hope that through this discussion, like people got a better picture of our church and us and just how we're walking through this.

And I want to speak for, I'm going to speak to our, our brothers and sisters, you know, our fellow Grace Pointers, but first I want to speak to just anyone who's new, who's like listening to this. Like if you're, if you're new, checking our church or you, or, you know, you're a student, you've been here a couple years, you know, two, three years, you know, and, or you're just like someone who's just like heard about this somehow, like you got wind of this.

Yeah. Welcome to the show. Yeah. It's, it's really unsettling, right? Like to kind of like, just this whole can of worms, just like this whole floodgates of stuff. It's really unsettling, disorienting to kind of like encounter this. And so what I just hope is that through this podcast, like some of that got settled, at least if, if not the questions that you have, that just like, at least like your nerves and your emotions got settled, because it can be really profoundly disturbing.

Right. And, and that, you know, we know, and just feel free to talk to us. Yeah. That's, it's like, we're, we're genuinely open, you know, and, and you've probably been over to people's homes and, and they've opened their doors and their lives to you and their hearts to you, you know, and like, you want to talk about transparency, like, you know, you came to my house and you held my kid, you know, like, like, right.

And, and don't forget that, you know, and so just at least it'd be nice to have a conversation about it. We, we're, we're very well, we've made mistakes, but we're very well intentioned, you know, and, and I just hope that came across in this series now to, so that was to, you know, just newer people or, or, um, students or, you know, people just come out a couple of years or just, you know, but to, uh, just fellow Grace Pointers, um, I just want to encourage us to just keep praying, you know, maybe that's, that's just one of the good things that comes out of this, you know, that we pray, right.

That this just causes us to just feel our own inadequacy, insufficiency, and that we just seek God's face. And that would be a good thing. Um, talk to one another about it. You know, if you're feeling dark, like I was feeling like you gotta get, like, it was me talking to you that helped a lot, you know, and like talking and reflecting.

So talk to each other. Yeah. And I just want to read, um, a couple of verses here, just Romans 8:28. "We know that for those who love God, all things work together for good, for those who are who are called according to his purpose." I want to read second Corinthians four.

"Therefore, having this ministry by the mercy of God, we do not lose heart. We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways. We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God's word. But by the open statement of the truth, we will commit ourselves to everyone's conscience in the sight of God.

For we, what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, to ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake." So, yeah. I, I don't know that as I was kind of thinking about this episode, um, the serenity prayer came to mind and just felt like that would be a really appropriate way to end kind of this episode and just this whole series.

And so, um, maybe we can just do that. Yeah. Yeah. Let me just, uh, read the serenity prayers of famous prayer written by, I always forget to say his name, Reinald Niebuhr. Yeah. But anyway, um, let me just read that for us in prayer. God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference, living one day at a time, enjoying one moment at a time, accepting hardship as a pathway to peace, taking, as Jesus did, this sinful world as it is, not as I would have it, trusting that you will make all things right if I surrender to your will so that I may be reasonably happy in this life and supremely happy with you forever in the next.

Amen. Amen. Amen. Well, that was, um, not all our episodes are going to be like that. Sorry, that was a little bit of a- We're going to do a couple where we're just doing, like, having fun. Yeah, I don't know how to just, like, play songs or something on one of the episodes, but- That'll be fun.

Thank you as always for joining us, for giving us a listen on the official, unofficial Grace Point Podcast. Smash like button. I didn't even say that right. Smash the like button. You slaughtered that. Wow. Click, subscribe, and we will see you guys soon.