Hey, everybody, welcome back. Besties are back, and it's a Bestie SPACsgiving. Congratulations to the Queen of Quinoa. His second company, David Freeberg, announces today, hours before the taping of this special Thanksgiving pod, that he is taking Metro Mile public through a SPAC, and that Bestie C, and here is the quote, that as only Chamath can tweet, Buffett had Geico.

I pick Metro Mile. Unbelievable. I would just like to say. That's how you move markets. LeBron James has three rings. Freeberg, tell us, what is Metro Mile? Well, this isn't a self-promoting podcast, is it? No, but I think it's just, you know, it's your second company. I started the company in 2011, when I was running Clemson.

I was the CEO of Climate when I was the CEO there. And, you know, we were, Climate was offering insurance at the time. We learned a lot about the insurance markets and figured like, hey, you know, telematics or connecting cars to the internet is going to be a big deal.

And we're going to be able to completely change the auto insurance industry. So we set up this company. I was the chairman from the founding in 2011. And, you know, been chairman and I've been an active investor in the business and every round since then. So. The business has built some, you know, really compelling value proposition for customers.

And, you know, it's got really good unit economics and it's, you know, needed its last round of capital to get profitable. And it turns out, you know, as we were thinking about that this summer, that a SPAC was a really good path for the business, given the inflection point it's at.

And the basic premise of the business is instead of paying for insurance by month or time period, the innovation here is you pay per month. Yeah. Yeah. The reason you're paying for insurance today is you pay per mile. Yeah. Insurance today is like, you know, you fill out a form and you get a price for insurance.

You pay that rate for six months of coverage. But, you know, depending on when you're driving and how much you're driving, you should be paying a different price. Right. So we, we kind of changed the model to a rate per mile. And so if you don't drive, you save, you know, so the average customer doesn't drive a lot with MetroMile.

They save 47% over what they were paying with like Geico or Progressive Reassurance. And you do that with that ODB. Yeah, the little plug-in device. And increasingly, we're actually doing it directly by connecting to cars direct through Ford and a couple other big automotive OEMs now have this ability to send the data directly out of the car because they're all internet connected now.

So, so that allows us to just basically, you know, see how many miles you're driving and the rate per mile is what we bill you each month times the number of miles you drove on your, on your car. And you didn't mention how you drive. I think that was a controversial concept for a while.

You know, if you speed, if you. Right. So we even, is that on the roadmap or no? Yeah, that, that, that is part of it today. But frankly, 70% of the price difference you get in auto insurance is from the number of miles you drive. And only 30% is really in this variance around behavior.

You know, most people are generally pretty good drivers. So believe it or not. So the, the real variance in terms of, you know, your risk to the insurance company is how many miles you drive. So that really is the predominant factor. So if we can accurately track that. Now what's interesting is like in a world of autonomous cars where you're like turning on the car.

To be autonomous or fully self-driving at some point, you know, it's on and off. You should be getting a different rate for those miles. Right? So if the car is, if your Tesla is on autopilot on the freeway, that should be safer than you on the freeway. You shouldn't be paying as much fraud insurance.

Even better. You can kind of think about how this moves into a world where everything is dynamically priced and dynamically build. Usage priced. Yeah. Usage priced and that, and also fair. So, you know, if you're a good driver and you're driving well, or if you're using autonomous features, you shouldn't pay as much.

And ultimately that translates, uh, you know, to. You know, into a truly kind of more dynamic service. And that's really where the world has to go because those low mileage drivers or those good drivers or those drivers using autonomous features should be paying considerably less. So they'll start using our service and that'll force the other guys to raise their rates.

And it creates this huge, you know, kind of market mode. Um, great. And we're in the, we're in the, we're in the very early days. I mean, it's like the first inning still. So we're, you know, we're, we're just getting going. Chamath, you chose to do a pipe, um, with the SPAC.

Explain to the audience what a pipe is. For people who don't know and what you loved about Metro mile. Sure. Um, I think the, uh, what, what is a pipe? A pipe is a, a private investment in a public enterprise. And basically what that means, um, is that, uh, you're making the round bigger, right?

So it's kind of like Sequoia does your series a and invest 10 million. I would come in and put another 10 million and now your series a is 20 million. Um, same terms as the, um, as Sequoia is round. Yeah. Yeah. So it's the same thing. So it's, it's the same thing, right?

So it's, it's the same thing. So it's, it's the same thing. So it's, it's the same thing. So it's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. So it's the same thing. It's the same thing. Um, why are, why is that helpful? Well, what it does is it allows somebody to price the deal.

So in this case, David's SPAC sponsor priced the deal, did the diligence and decided to underwrite Metro mile at that price. And then they came to me and said, Hey, um, you know, do you want to come and join this round? Essentially. And, um, I got to know the business.

Um, a lot of things that David said basically are true. The, the thing that I will say is like, you know, everybody talks about, um, the value of machine learning, right. And data oriented learning. Um, the most obvious thing that you can do is if you learn on top of a huge subset of data, especially out in the real world, like driving data or any other kind of information is you should be taking risk on top of it.

And this is why sort of these next generation insurance companies to me are so interesting, because it's probably where you're going to see, um, machine learning, um, be used that just massive, massive scale, because you're just going to reprice risk and make it as David said, much more dynamic.

So anyways, they showed it to me. I, um, I really liked the, the product, the metrics are, uh, really amazing. And so, um, I joined. It was great. I'm really excited for it. I'm really excited for a free bird. Yeah. Congratulations. Great. Jamal and I have never worked on anything together, so it's awesome.

We're doing our first project here on the all in podcast. Together. All right. So it sounds like a brilliant idea and I'm just pissed. So I'm not part of it. I read it like two besties. Yeah. I Jason, do you know about this? I don't know anything. I get, I'm the last cut out of it.

First of all, I need to get my beak wet. You too. We got the wet. I can't get my beak wet. You too. You too. Narcissistic besties have been, have been running around touting every single unicorn. I miss my allocation in Robin hood. I miss my allocation in bird or Uber or whatever.

Yeah. All right. New bestie rule. New bestie rule. Everybody gets a slice, even a little tasty poo. Everybody gets their beak wet. Like the old neighborhood. Like the old neighborhood. Just saying a little kick back, a little share. Let's Jason, why don't you start an AngelList syndicate for every all in podcast listener?

Yes. All in podcast syndicate. It will be on the syndicate.com. I left the AngelList, but yeah. Okay. Yeah. We'll do it. We'll do it. The syndicate.com/allinpodcastsyndicate. Okay. Yeah. So it's all in podcast, all in pod. And then we'll aggregate all these, uh, subscribers and I'll take a 20% carry.

And you guys can suggest ideas. Great idea. Can I just say, no, we'll do, we'll do zero carry and we'll allow all the listeners to participate in our deals, which I think would be pretty cool. Um, listen, I've, uh, I love how every time you loop my business into this, whether it's podcasting or syndicates, you take out the money and the profit.

I tell you what, I have an idea. How about we SPAC this week in startups? Jason. And, uh, you do it for no participation. I'm the father of growth. You know how you grow by. You're making things free. You want to maximize demand? Just make it free. Um, by the way, uh, on this topic, uh, Saxipoo had this incredible tweet this week, which was basically like, wow, this is like my 95th, uh, unicorn that went, that filed to go public.

I mean, literally every single unicorn that filed this week to go public. Sax was an angel investor, which is incredible. Says a goodies as an investor, but the best followup tweet was Zach Weinberg, the co-founder of flat iron. Health whose tweet was, I just want to congratulate myself on nothing for having not been a part of any of these companies.

I would like to congratulate myself for making no bets and taking no risk and getting no reward. No, I thought, I thought Zach's tweet was the best. Sax. Don't you find it tiring? Like all these investments that you've made, like don't these guys call you and want to do meetings and chat all the time?

I mean, you know, this has gotta be like a huge amount of effort, right? Well, not, not, not. I mean, it not really turn around. Well, you know, if you're not on the board, your obligation is basically to respond. When somebody asks you for something, I know as an angel investor, it is a little different when you're actually like leading around and you're a board member.

Um, I was making, I was making these investments back in 2012, 2013. That's when these seeds were planted, right? These were 50 K, a hundred K, 250 K checks, right? So the responsibility is proportional to the. Dollar amount. So somewhere a little bigger than that actually. But, um, I, um, I mean, I've written, I've written checks, you know, seven figure checks in some of these companies.

Well, sex, according to your personal balance sheet that we got from your accountants this week, Phil, how many sent it? We see here a transaction for house. Is it true? You did the series B of house, the entire series B dollar. That's what I heard. No, no. I heard it was you led the series.

Me. No, no. Any a led that round. I mean, I invested a lot as an individual. I did co-lead, um, the series B or C of at a park. Um, that was one that I did as an individual. That's incredible. Yeah. That's amazing. Going to be huge. I have no idea what that company is, but that sounds awesome.

They manage funds. They do portfolio software. It's coming up on, you know, a hundred million. I'm just kidding. I'm totally kidding. I'm totally getting. Uh, let's start the pod. J Cal, where are we going to start? Well, I mean, I think now that we've all self promoted. Exactly. Well, I'm just happy to hear that that Jason was cut out of your deal as much as me.

When I, when, when I read about it on Twitter, I'm like, I better not be the only best to cut out. You're right. You're totally right. You're right. It is. It is getting awkward now because people who watch this podcast, assume that we do everything together. Like literally they're like, well, you guys go grocery shopping together.

You go on vacation together. You guys get our backs together. House. Yeah. Yeah. It's that's not how it works. Um, I, I think the first thing we should, we should talk about is just this amazing. A moment in time when, because of science, you know, and this podcast started during the pandemic, we have had as predicted by free bird, who gets to take.

Two victory laps. He said by the end of the year, we'd have vaccines and they would have, because of this M RNA, if I remember correctly, 90, 95% efficacy. And sure enough, the week after Trump, uh, wins, I'm sorry, loses, sorry, sacks. He lost actually. Um, the week after Trump lost, I know you didn't vote for him.

Um, the week after he lost. Moderna, a Pfizer, then the next week, Moderna, and then the next week, Oxford, and I understand Johnson and Johnson is about to announce something. And all of these have 90 to 95% efficacy and that there are going to be 40, 50, and 60 million doses in December, January, and February, just from the first two.

In America alone. So Friedberg, if you were to put a number on when herd immunity hits, because probably 20 or 30% of people have had it 20, 30% of people have, um, some natural immunity, how long is this going to take? And could we be. We had to be doing this from, you know, a warriors game next year.

When, when are we going to be able to do this in person? I think, I don't know if it was. Test. Yeah. I don't know if it was Fauci or someone that's closer to the operation shared that they do think they can get 70% of Americans immunized by may.

So, um, my may. Yeah. So, you know, if you'll remember a few podcasts ago, I think I tried to explain a big part of the budget that went into this operation warp speed was to parallelize production of these vaccines while they were being tested. And so. We've been scaling up the production and the manufacturing of these, and if they weren't going to work, we're just going to crash them, right?

A couple billion dollars who cares? It's a good option for the American people. So we've got a ton of doses that have been produced. It's about packaging and distribution now. And that's, you know, supposed to be kind of underway with the plan to be that on December 11th or 12th, when they, uh, give the emergency use authorization, these doses start showing up, uh, in care.

We went all in. We basically went all in blind. Like we just shoved the chips in and said, we're going to make these vaccines, even if they're not. It's more like a spray and pray, um, angel investment portfolio. You know, we, we bought a, but we bought like four different things or five different things.

We made a bets in all of them and hope that one of them pays off. And it turns out they're all going to pay off. So, you know, or, or, or chunk of them are going to pay off and we get to have them ready. You know, in time to kind of make a difference here.

Now, all that being said, if you look at the case numbers in the U S right now, we could be as high as 30% of the American people have already been infected. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, and then if you look at the number of people that have been infected since then, and you apply the similar sort of multiple that you would assume based on tests, you know, there's, there's an estimate that we could already be at up to 30% of the U S population has been infected.

Right. So, um, and then if you look at the number of people that have been infected since then, and you apply the similar sort of multiple that you would assume based on tests, you know, there's, there's an estimate that we could already be at up to 30% of the U S population has been infected.

Right. So, um, and then if you look at the number of people that have been infected since then, you know, there's an estimate that we could already be at up to 30% of the U S population has been infected. Right. So, um, and then if you look at the number of people that have been infected since then, you know, there's an estimate that we could already be at up to 30% of the U S population has been infected.

Right. So, um, and then if you look at the number of people that have been infected since then, you know, there's an estimate that we could already be at up to 30% of the U S population has been infected. Right. So, um, and then if you look at the number of people that have been infected since then, you know, there's an estimate that we could already be at up to 30% of the U S population has been infected.

Right. know about you guys, but I got some conference invites this last week for conferences for next year that have been canceled this year and were being put on hold. Yeah. So people are starting to lean out. For what time frame? Third quarter or fourth quarter? Summer, July. Yeah.

So people are now assuming that and they're booking hotel spaces based on it. That is extraordinary. Sax, you shared this New York Times story. Why don't you summarize it for the audience? And I'd love to get your thoughts in addition to this as to what this recovery might look like if in fact we have more vaccine than we need and even a reasonable number of Americans take it and don't believe that it's a conspiracy theory by Bill Gates to control and the Illuminati and all that stuff.

Yeah. I mean, this New York Times story is pretty remarkable. It's called Politics, Science, and the Remarkable Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine. This came out, I think it just came out today. In the New York Times. Actually, sorry, it's published. It published November 21st, updated November 24th. And it's pretty remarkable.

It describes the effort by Operation Warp Speed, by the administration, by Pfizer, by Moderna. It kind of gives you the behind the scenes, play by play. And reading the article, you have to come away thinking that the Trump administration did a pretty good job with this whole Warp Speed project.

I don't know if the New York Times is going to be able to do that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't realizes that it's making the Trump administration look so good or maybe they don't care anymore because he's lost the election but the article does make the administration look very good I mean competent first very competent first of all they shoveled money to the right people they you know they offered Pfizer money Pfizer didn't want it or need it but Moderna did so they got a few billion dollars Moderna they parallel processed a bunch of different attempts here so that if one company failed the others might succeed there was a sort of a Reaganite cutting of bureaucratic red tape wherever they could there were examples in the story of the drug company needing something some supplies or what have you and they would call the administration and they would you know make it happen and then finally the administration didn't do anything to to kind of mess with the science you know in fact they describe how this the this new experimental mRNA technique that they used to generate the vaccine they had the code for that within two days they actually had the vaccine sort of printed if you will within weeks and really what took all this time were the human trials what you know the three-stage human trials which the administration did not do anything to speed up and probably the irony of ironies the supreme irony is there's a story there's a there's a bit in the story that's not true but there's a bit in the story that's not true but there's a bit in the story that's not true but there's a bit in the story it actually begins with there's a bit in the story that's not true but there's a bit in the story it actually begins with there's a bit in the story it actually begins with the uh this guy Slaoui who's the head of the the uh this guy Slaoui who's the head of the the uh this guy Slaoui who's the head of the Trump administration's effort to produce the vaccine Trump administration's effort to produce the vaccine Trump administration's effort to produce the vaccine he actually slowed down the Moderna human he actually slowed down the Moderna human he actually slowed down the Moderna human trials by about three weeks because they weren't trials by about three weeks because they weren't trials by about three weeks because they weren't including enough minorities including enough minorities including enough minorities in the you know in the in the trial in the you know in the trial in the you know in the trial and that cost him three weeks if it and that cost him three weeks if it and that cost him three weeks if it weren't for those three weeks weren't for those three weeks weren't for those three weeks Moderna's vaccine would have happened Moderna's vaccine would have happened Moderna's vaccine would have happened before Pfizer and it would have come out before Pfizer and it would have come out before Pfizer and it would have come out about a week before the election about a week before the election about a week before the election so you gotta wonder like Trump has got so you gotta wonder like Trump has got so you gotta wonder like Trump has got to be to be to be pulling out his hair about um what about pulling out his hair about um what about pulling out his hair about um what about about about this twist of fate David about this twist of fate David about this twist of fate David how does it attribute credit for warp how does it attribute credit for warp how does it attribute credit for warp speed speed speed and I'm going someplace with this so I'm and I'm going someplace with this so I'm and I'm going someplace with this so I'm just asking you the question just asking you the question just asking you the question well I don't the article's not trying to well I don't the article's not trying to well I don't the article's not trying to attribute credit they're just kind of attribute credit they're just kind of attribute credit they're just kind of describing the behind the scenes of of describing the behind the scenes of of describing the behind the scenes of of how Pfizer Moderna came up with their how Pfizer Moderna came up with their how Pfizer Moderna came up with their vaccines and um vaccines and um vaccines and um it just but but in in describing it just but but in in describing it just but but in in describing you know Pfizer Moderna did the work of you know Pfizer Moderna did the work of you know Pfizer Moderna did the work of creating the vaccine but in describing creating the vaccine but in describing creating the vaccine but in describing the ways that warp speed contributed the ways that warp speed contributed the ways that warp speed contributed they did things that were only helpful they did things that were only helpful they did things that were only helpful and nothing that was harmful and so in and nothing that was harmful and so in and nothing that was harmful and so in that sense it made the Trump that sense it made the Trump that sense it made the Trump administration look quite good administration look quite good administration look quite good yeah I I think the point is that the yeah I I think the point is that the yeah I I think the point is that the the warp speed folks which is probably the warp speed folks which is probably the warp speed folks which is probably the least well-known working group the least well-known working group the least well-known working group working on coronavirus to the rest of working on coronavirus to the rest of working on coronavirus to the rest of the public is because it was a lot of the public is because it was a lot of the public is because it was a lot of wonky insiders it was sign of almost wonky insiders it was sign of almost wonky insiders it was sign of almost proving the exact opposite of what proving the exact opposite of what proving the exact opposite of what Trump typically does which is you know Trump typically does which is you know Trump typically does which is you know some idiotic nepotistic leaning where some idiotic nepotistic leaning where some idiotic nepotistic leaning where it's his daughter or it's his son-in-law it's his daughter or it's his son-in-law it's his daughter or it's his son-in-law running around you know completely running around you know completely running around you know completely and effectively you know doing something and effectively you know doing something and effectively you know doing something where they become sort of front and where they become sort of front and where they become sort of front and center for taking credit in this case it center for taking credit in this case it center for taking credit in this case it was just a bunch of policy walks you was just a bunch of policy walks you was just a bunch of policy walks you never heard about the project we only never heard about the project we only never heard about the project we only know about work speed because a handful handful of us have talked about it.

And it turns out to actually have been good because they knew what they were doing and they knew enough to not try to seek the credit and just got out of the way. I mean, it proves almost the antithesis of how the Trump campaign, you know, managed their time in the White House.

Well, I mean, you have a point where I was kind of reading this article wondering, you know, where was Jared Kushner? Because if Kushner knew about this, there's no way he slows down the Moderna vaccine by three weeks. I mean, that might have made the difference right there and whether Trump wins or not.

Can you imagine the effect on the election if the vaccine had come out one week before November 3rd? I think Trump would have won decidedly if he had a vaccine or two out with 90%. But I think he had no credibility, even though Moderna and Pfizer were saying late November, and he said the vaccines are around the corner.

His whole tenure was based on so much lying. He was the boy who cried wolf. He was the president who cried wolf. He was the president who told the truth. And he was telling the truth about the vaccines. It was like, oh, my Lord, he told the truth in the final three months.

Can I give you the opposite, David, of that, which is that if Moderna basically says, hey, guys, we have a vaccine that works for white people, and a disease that's, you know, disproportionately killing blacks and, you know, Hispanics and brown people, Native Americans, and all of a sudden, people are like, wait, what the fuck?

David Morgan: Yeah, I mean, I think it's ironic that an administration that was constantly accused of white supremacy, probably lost the election, because they slowed down this vaccine trial group to include more minorities. David Morgan: No, I know. But I think what we're saying is it wasn't the actual administration.

It was somebody that actually knows what they were doing. David Morgan: We call that redemption in the movie when the person actually loses because they did the right thing. It's kind of redemption. Freeberg, when you look at these mRNA vaccines, you were educating us about them last night, and also for a long time.

Tell the audience just one more time how these work briefly. David Morgan: and what the potential for them is in the future because I think a lot of us now are starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel this is gonna be over we're gonna be at conferences or going traveling to Europe or whatever it is next summer but we are all gonna be scarred for life thinking you know when is the next coronavirus just like for a decade we we were on pins and needles when is the next 9/11 so this is gonna be scar tissue for a generation or two of people when the next Cove it comes how quickly will warp speed 2.0 go yeah it's it's a it's the right question because our approach to doing vaccines may have just changed permanently so you know every cell has your DNA and DNA basically codes proteins every three letters of DNA makes an amino acid codes for a specific amino acid there's 20 amino acids the way that DNA turns into proteins is through RNA so you're gonna be able to get the DNA from your DNA and you're gonna be able to get the DNA so RNA is kind of like a mirror copy of your DNA it floats into these things called ribosomes in your cells and outcome proteins and those it's like a printer right and so those those ribosomes make your proteins using those amino acid sequences coded by the RNA so the way that the vaccines work historically is you'll get a dead virus which is basically the protein of a virus your immune system then learns to kill that or to remove that protein oh man Jesus my dog your immune system then learns to remove that protein from your body and that's how you develop this memory your immune memory to a specific protein and so they put this dead art vaccine but virus in your body and hopefully your immune system learns a good response to it mRNA basically puts the RNA in your body that codes for that protein your cells then make that protein and because it's making a lot more of the protein in a more consistent you know way theoretically the idea is your body develops a much more robust immune memory than your immune system so you're going to be able to have a much more robust immune memory and immune response without it overloading your system where all the immune cells try and wipe that protein out right away and so on the challenge is you're putting RNA in your body and we've always been worried about we don't know what the side effects of mixing RNA in your body would be is it going to change your DNA is it going to change your genetic makeup is it going to cause other deleterious side effects so this technology this capability this knowledge has been around forever I'm not forever but for you know a long time and the idea has always been we could use RNA in this way but you know no one wanted and we've used it in animals and we've used it in plants and we've seen the capability of using RNA to do different things like this but this is a big leap and so you know we kind of leapt forward here getting to the point that we felt comfortable with you know RNA as a as a treatment like this and it's it's working so in theory in the future as fax points out you could take any virus or any bacteria you could read its DNA you could do that in an hour then you could take chunks of that DNA and code RNA for it so your body makes those proteins that theoretically produce an immune response so that that's the that's the science of like how do you how do you create a new vaccine I think that's the amazing part is the way it's described you know in this article is that's almost like laser printing or 3D printing a vaccine it's kind of like the equivalent of that you just take the genome of the virus and you know boom you've got the vaccine and then all the other delay is about human trials and testing of it but imagine if that there there was the next coronavirus is 10 times as deadly you know something that's as spreads as contagiously as smallpox and as you know as deadly as Ebola or something like that we could have a vaccine the next day you know like you could we could have a very challenge David would be is we'd have it the next day like we did here but we would be going through this three-phase trial and so I want to take a moment here and talk to Chamath about something which is challenge trials um in the UK they will start doing challenge trials for those people who don't know what a challenge trial is essentially they expose you to something dangerous i.e a virus like covid and then uh they give you the uh vaccine and then they give you uh the virus as opposed to how we do a three-phase trial which is you give the vaccine to 30 000 people and a placebo to 30 000 and then you come back three months later and see how many people got affected and it takes time and money whereas challenge trials only take risk on the individuals who are part of it Chamath hundreds of people in the science community signed a letter and in the UK they're going to be doing the reverse challenge trials in January the United States is not doing these I'm certain China is um do you think it's a moment in time where we need to think about the ethics and morality of challenge trials specifically and then if so how do you execute them with that how do you execute a challenge trial without it being unfair um or too dangerous for people obviously you're not going to just go into a prison and say hey anybody want to get 10 years off the sentence during the challenge trial that seems morally bankrupt but we let people climb mountains without ropes so right well I think this speaks to a whole bunch of other issues that we've talked about on the pod before you know another example of this was section 230 before when we talked about it we had a body of law that was created in a moment of time that essentially was about framing and understanding a specific pathway and a way to use Technologies that today look archaic and we have to rewrite the laws in order to just compensate and understand for where we are so if I if you double click on trials as an example you know if you have a solution for a rare disease you can go in a specific pathway with the FDA and get breakthrough and fast track approval but if you for example have uh you know a novel immunotherapy cancer drug you probably you cannot you know you have to do a multi-phase trial a typical three-phase trial you have to solve for very typical things like fatigue Etc Etc all these things slow progress down now in a world where we were somewhat lying blind 40 or 50 years ago we didn't have you know things like crisper we didn't have you know a real understanding of the genome we didn't have delivery mechanisms like cart you would say okay yeah we should be really really careful but I would say that the more you know um the more you can ease up on the rules because you can actually empower people with a lot of information and it shouldn't take a disaster scenario for us to be iterative and experimental so I think the challenge trial is really important I think the concept of them make a lot of sense I think a lot of government should employ incentives to figure out who is eligible and why but if you're a healthy adult male or female and you want to participate in a trial for whatever set of reasons um you should be allowed to do so and companies that want to run those trials should be allowed to run them similarly if you want to find a complementary pathway through regulatory agencies to get drugs to the starting line you should be able to do those too and I think what we have to do is multi-path um these compounds going forward because I think that's where you accelerate all these technologies ability to actually solve these diseases Freberg why is it so controversial that um a rocket ship company uh or you know uh people who want to climb on mountains without ropes or a rocket ship company like there are experimental pilots we have astronauts they take unbelievable risk we send thousands of troops into harm's way for many different reasons many of which sadly die and they volunteer for those activities those people are volunteering and compensated but when we look at science and we look at a challenge trial scientists say this is morally reprehensible to compensate somebody for taking risk when it that's exactly what we do in the army we do it with police offers and we do it with astronauts help us understand how scientists think so differently than say war I don't know if it's scientists as much as it is you know regulatory framework like the some people would call it a nanny state and you know there are things that the nanny state assumes individuals uh don't have the capacity to understand the extent of the potential loss or the or the nature of the risk this is true for Angel investing right you have to be a qualified investor to invest in a private company without appropriate disclosures and uh it's true in a lot of other contexts so um you know to to give people the authority to make decisions like this it seems like my I have no point of view that I'm kind of making here but it seems like the the the the the government assumes or the the elected officials assume or the populace assumes that there are things that people aren't really equipped to make decisions on because they can't understand the risk because they're not qualified and uh that and they get excluded from those activities but Saks is the uh it's just how should we frame this yeah yeah well I think how should we frame it yeah I think assumption of risk is is a is a really good principle and it is a way for people to engage in potentially harmful behavior just because a behavior is is potentially harmful doesn't mean you don't get to do it um in the United States you're allowed to do things that are manifestly harmful to yourself like smoking well you know even worse if you're in Oregon you can now do all kinds of hard drugs I mean you can assume that risk for yourself so you know if in Portland Oregon you can now take heroin openly in the street with no consequence but you can't participate in a trial that could basically cure a cancer that's insane to me I'll tell you yeah I'll tell you I'll tell you the flip side of it um you're allowed in Nevada to play roulette I mean what the like you know it's got a negative expected value statistically factually for individuals but the individual doesn't have the capacity to do it so I think that's a really good point and I think that's a really good point and I think that's a really good point and I think that's a really good point generally speaking that's playing roulette to recognize that every dollar they're spending at the roulette table is likely going to be to you know taken away from them like there's some percentage of that that's going to be taken away there's a five percentage for the house on that uh on that game and um and so we make the argument in some cases that people don't have the capacity to understand risk but in other cases it's okay for them to not have the capacity to to take risk and I think that there is this notion of what some people call regulatory capture that probably encompasses both of these which is that there is some degree of profiteering that has created some set of laws that kind of manifestly capture that system in a certain way so there are profitable Casino enterprises that say let's get people to spend their money in a risky way that they don't understand and that becomes the law and then people in Nevada are allowed to do that there are also pharmaceutical companies that will say we need to have huge regulatory burdens so once we make that big investment and we get patent approval and we can lock in that drug we can charge a lot of money for it so I would argue to some extent that the regulatory capture associated with the profit hearing that happens on the back end of the system is that we're not going to be able to do that and that's why I think that the way that we're going to be able to do that is that we're going to be able to do that is by making sure that we're not going to be able to do that and that's why I think that the way that we're going to be able to do that is by making sure that we're not going to be able to do that is by making sure that we're not going to be able to do that and that's why I think that the way that we're going to be able to do that is by making sure that we're not going to be able to do that is by making sure that we're not going to be able to do that and that's why I think that the way that we're going to be able to do that is by making sure that we're not going to be able to do that is by making sure that we're not going to be able to do that and the rationale is well, you're the most protected, right?

Well, the drug infrastructure here has created to your point because of regulation the entire you know, CRO industry which is a multi-multi-billion dollar industry which basically is essentially a retardant of R&D velocity, right? Its entire job is to slow things down, create these double-blinded studies. By the way, and so many of these studies are not even double-blinded, they're not even actually scientifically rigorous, they get basically blown apart after the fact.

So what are they really in the business of doing? It's because they're exploiting a business model that was created by laws, laws that were written by regulators, regulators that were in the hands of lobbyists. None of those folks truly understood at the time but especially today what's really possible.

So you know, it does not make sense in the United States of America, just writ large simply put that you can buy alcohol and drink yourself into the ground, buy cigarettes and smoke yourself to death, you know, jump out of a car and gamble away your money where you're negative EV or open, you know, openly do illicit drugs but you can't participate in a thoughtful trial backed by scientific research.

In fairness, Jamath, you can get away with smoking fentanyl in San Francisco and Oregon but it is illegal to use that plastic straw. So be careful folks, the laws are very clear here. That plastic straw is going to get you in a lot of trouble. I don't know what the fine is, but it is completely illegal.

It wouldn't be so crazy if it were true but to your point, like you would actually get arrested for having a plastic bag than you will for having fentanyl in San Francisco. Absolutely. They'll arrest you for the bag that the fentanyl is in but Chesa Budin will not arrest you for the fentanyl in the plastic bag.

Sacks, we've totally lost the script but Jamath sort of bridged this with the 230 discussion of common carrier and said, hey, you know, we had great intent with this law but nobody saw social networks becoming this dominant, addictive, et cetera. So we need to be more nimble as a government in changing these regulations whether it's straws, fentanyl, challenge trials, or 230.

You wrote a blog post about it. After we had our 230 discussion, a lot of people started talking about it. Have you come to some conclusion as to an exit ramp for 230 or a way to maintain it without, you know, throwing the baby with the bathwater? Yeah, yeah.

Well, okay, just kind of make one concluding thought on this last topic. Sure, of course. So the reason why innovation has happened so fast on the internet is because of, you know, one word, permissionless, right? Permissionless innovation. Nobody who has an idea for a startup needs to go get permission from someone in the government, you know, repeatedly.

That's really what makes a difference. You know, Mark Zuckerberg as a, you know, sophomore in college can just build his project. Larry and Sergey as PhD students can just build their project, ship it, start, you know, getting used to it. And they don't have to get the permission of a regulator whose incentive, by the way, is just typically not to get fired by approving something that might rebound on them in some, you know, in some bad way.

And to keep their job. Yeah. Keep their job. I mean, imagine if, you know, imagine just to take like a random example, when Elon launched Starman, remember when he put the, like, he launched the Tesla into space and there was like a astronaut in there and it was like this kind of really cool moment.

I assume he just, you know, he just, you know, he just, you know, he just did it. I assume he didn't get permission from anybody to do it, but could a moment like that have really happened if he did have to get permission? No way. It'd be like making its way up through the chain.

No one would know what to think of it. No one would know whether they could be the one to approve it. And then what if something goes wrong? What if the Tesla comes back down to earth and, you know, turns into a meteor or whatever, those are the scenarios that be running through their heads.

Nobody would have allowed it. Right. And so when you just let entrepreneurs do things like good things, you know, you're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it. You're not going to be able to do it.

Right. And that's why we've had so much progress on the internet. And in so many of these other areas, we've had much less progress because, you know, what a system like that selects for is your ability to go lobby regulators as opposed to just building your project and shipping it.

I think that one of the things that maybe happens is that, you know, we were all expecting, or maybe some of us, I have definitely some version of a new deal and some grand bargain. And I wonder maybe whether the new deal and our sort of like our version of FDR over the next, I don't know, 10 years is the person that actually says, guys, we're going to have a wholesale rewrite of the regulatory infrastructure to account for technology.

Just period. We're going to start someplace reasonable and small, and we're going to make common sense reforms, just observing the times as they exist today. Right. And we're going to go and systematically try to make these industries a little bit more resilient, a little bit more entrepreneurial, you know, a little bit less corrupted by regulatory capture and lobbyists and laws that just don't make sense 100 years later.

I mean, it'd be great if we could do that. The reason we can't is because how do you reform the law without the lobbyists getting their fingers in it? Right. And the problem is there's no lobbyist for the company that doesn't exist yet, right? For the founder, for the entrepreneur who's got an idea in their head, but they haven't built their company yet.

There's nobody representing that person in Washington. Right. And what happens is you get new regulations in Washington. Some agency gets created. They reach out and touch an industry. Now, every player that's affected has to create their own lobbying organization. Not true. And David, what do you think about this?

What if the advocate for the entrepreneur or the uncreated company and uncreated product is really the same as just individual civil liberties and rights? How are they really that different? Because really what it's doing is it's creating a new organization. It's creating a new organization. It's creating a new system.

It's creating a new system. It's creating a new system. And so what we're doing is saying the entrenched organizational infrastructure that runs my life gets deconstructed and then power gets pushed down to be the individual. That's tantamount to the same thing, I think. Well, we have seen some pushback.

Well, I mean, there is some silver lining here. If you look right now, the citizens of California, obviously people have been fleeing and we've been talking about California and the one-party system here causing so many problems. But we did have Prop 22 pass and we now have 900,000 people have signed to recall Governor Newsom.

And these seem to be some pushback against this sort of nanny state where people can't make decisions. And then additionally, today, the SEC announced that they will allow gig working companies to give stock to employees as part of their compensation. Up to $1 billion. Up to 15% of their compensation, in fact.

Hester, how do you pronounce her last name? It's not Pierce. You can't pronounce the word Pierce? Pierce. Pierce. No, it's spelled Pierce. But Hester Pierce is worth following on the Twitter, H-E-S-T-E-R-P-E-I-R-C-E. Hester Pierce, I had her on my podcast this week in startups and they're really getting aggressive in changing the accreditation law.

So anybody's going to be able to be an accredited investor, you just become sophisticated. Through a testing mechanism. And now they want to let gig workers get equity compensation. But by the way, sorry, here's a perfect example of a regulatory body and infrastructure that actually has changed with the times.

I think the SEC, in fact, I think maybe we talked about this a little bit the last time. I actually think one of the best Trump appointees has been Jay Clayton. And I actually think Jay Clayton has done an incredibly good job. And a lot of what he's done is just deconstruct this kind of thing.

Jay Clayton: Yeah. I mean, I think he's done a really good job. And he's done a really good job. I'm not saying that he's done a great job. But he's done a really good job. And I think that's what he's done. And I think that's what he's done. I think he's done a really good job.

educated and they're going to have to find a way of putting their money to work in assets that have a better return, which literally was illegal up until very recently. And so you were systematically letting the rich stay rich. And you were blocking the poor from having an opportunity to advance.

What if Apple Store employees could get their paycheck and say, "I want to take my paycheck, 70% cash, 30% restricted stock units at this discount?" We could let Apple Store employees make a million dollars after five or 10 years of working there, 10, 20 years from now, and have generational wealth change.

David Sachs, you had a comment. Well, I was going to ask, Jarmath, do you think this type of deregulation is going to happen in the Biden administration? Because what you're discussing is like a very, really kind of classical Republican or Reaganite idea, right? I agree. And I think what's going to happen is I think you're going to continue to see deregulation in areas that are benign and non-controversial.

So I think the SEC, the FCC, I think all of these places you'll see movement. I think you'll probably actually see a lot more choice and deregulation effectively in Medicare and CMMI. I think those places will move first. And then I think it'll be up to some leader politician to decide whether or not they want to do it.

And I think that's going to be a very, to then really rally the troops on some higher order bits. And one of the biggest higher order bits would be sort of around the broader health care infrastructure, social security. Education. Education is probably the biggest one. It's just too sacrosanct for the Democrats.

You cannot get elected without the teachers. And so unless there is a startup that completely disrupts teacher pay and teacher compensation, then the public school teachers unions will continue to dominate a lot of the federal and state policy. For the worst, unfortunately. Freeberg, if you had one regulation or series of regulations or regulatory body, you would most like to see change for the good of humanity and Americans and the rest of the humans on the planet, what would it be?

Probably health. Yeah, probably the drug process, the drug development process. You know, there was a gene editing program that ran and someone died. What year was this? 97, 99? And they basically halted all gene editing programs for 13 years. You know how many people died during that time? It was fucking, it's a crazy, crazy fact where, you know, you know, the one death is too many rule, you know, basically doesn't take into account the kind of broader implications on the downside.

So, yeah, I think that one's probably pretty important. But, you know, there's a good interview. If you want to hear some interesting thoughts, and again, not trying to be an advocate for any political point of view, but Charles Koch goes on Tim Ferriss. Have you guys heard this podcast interview?

I've listened to it, yeah. Yeah. And he highlights a couple of really good examples about this regulatory capture problem. Like, if you're poor, and you want to become a hairdresser, and, you know, start a salon, or go work in a salon and make money cutting hair, the cost and the burden for you to go get the necessary approvals from the Cosmetician Association is too burdensome for, you know, the average person who's poor and needs to become a hairdresser.

And it's just insane that you can't just go be a hairdresser. The government needs, the government needs to ensure that people don't get bad haircuts. It's worse, it's worse. You don't need a license to be the engineer that writes the machine learning code that either drives a car autonomously or that, you know, helps propel disinformation in a social network.

But you do need to have a license to give someone a buzz cut. Oh, that's a bingo statement right there. Yeah. I mean, in fairness, I am checking out Sax's new haircut here, and I'm... I'm kind of thinking... So there should be more regulation? There might. I was practicing without a license.

You were? I mean, did you do that yourself? We can't see the result of this. You may want to think this one through. I mean, Sax, you're so white and pale, you're blending into the background shade. It's impossible to see where your skin ends, your hair starts, and the shade begins.

But I feel like the regulatory, if you think about the framework, you know, it extends into education too. Like, you can't go get an entry-level job without a quote-unquote college degree. How fucking useful is a college philosophy degree to someone that's trying to get an entry-level job working at X, Y, or Z bank, right?

Like, it's a bit absurd that the structure is set up so that there are... Whether it's, you know, government or not, but there is effectively a hurdle, which is this alternative to regulatory capture, but it's like, call it embedded system, you know, capture. Like, there is a significant kind of hurdle that you have to get through that costs a lot, and the point of entry has gotten too high for most.

And it really stalls things out, and it's going to cause more damage than good. Well, and it's also been completely disconnected from the reality of your employment potential. People are going into debt for $200,000 in a liberal arts degree that provides no skill that is valuable in the world.

Do we all agree that that makes sense? Like, does anyone in this group argue for needing a bachelor's degree for everyone? I don't think... I think it's useless. What do you guys think of ISAs, income-sharing agreements? These have become kind of... Lambda School does them. A bunch of other schools.

David, you saw a startup we just invested in that's doing them, and I think you liked them at the demo day we did with Kraft. Maybe, you know, this idea is who should take the risk for an education? And when you look at an ISA, an income-sharing agreement, what they're saying is the school takes the risk.

They let you come to school for free. They give you what would be the equivalent of, let's say, a $15,000 coding camp or growth marketer risk. Then you pay double that amount over $15,000. You pay double that amount over five, six, seven years as a percentage of your income.

But if you don't get income, if you don't break $50,000 a year, you don't have to pay it back. And if you decide to go back to school or your income drops below $50,000, you don't have to do it. Can you imagine if a college had to make that promise?

They should do it. They should start in college sports, but they should do it. Imagine Duke basically went and recruited kids and said, listen, we're going to pay you to come to Duke. We're going to get you educated. We're going to teach you how to play basketball better than anybody else.

And we're going to take 5% of your future earnings. Yes or no? You're not going to have to go to boosters. You're not going to have to take money. You're not going to have to do any of this stuff on the side. But just be your best. Learn to play the game.

We'll get you a reasonable education. We'll give you a good infrastructure. And we take 5% of the back end. With a cap. So you could cap the upside, right? Or maybe there's no cap. But why do we always have to care about all of this? It's like, whatever. Maybe it's 5% for the rest of your life.

You're going to pay the government 50%. You get nothing in return. So if you pay 5% and you get Coach K to teach you how to shoot a jumper, it's better than that, right? So why isn't it possible? And I remember how people had this unbelievably paternalistic, allergic reaction to income sharing agreements when they were first talked about.

They called them indentured servitude. Modern slavery. And they compared them to slavery. And it was like, oh my God. So insulting to the concept of slavery. But it's no different than signing a contract with an agent to represent you when you first start out in any industry, music or sports or film or whatever.

You could sign an agency agreement where the agent is your rep for 10, 20 years, right? I mean, some of those agreements can have long tails on them and that's effectively the same. You know, look at- Well, the ISA's had a cap. Look at, look at, we can talk about this in a second, but like, you know, did you see what happened with Chappelle the last couple of days where Chappelle- Oh yeah, let's go.

Did you watch the video? I loved it. Yeah. The video is incredible. The video is incredible. So the quick story on this is Chappelle basically did, he had a request. He went to Netflix and he said, take down Chappelle's show. Netflix took it down. And he did a little standup.

It's on his Instagram. It's like 18 minutes. It's fabulous as most Chappelle stuff is. Peak Chappelle. Peak Chappelle. And he basically told this story, which essentially the punchline is like, you know, he signed a contract where he just got completely fucked. And he's like, this is happening every single day in so many markets.

And so the idea that then you have actually a different market, which disrupts something by actually creating transparency in something reasonable is all of a sudden completely immoral. Makes no sense to me because this is the right thing to do. So there's abuses happening all the time. That is what the contract that Chappelle signed was indentured servitude.

He doesn't even have the rights to his name. He cannot create. If they took his name and likeness, right? If you wanted to create the Dave Chappelle show again, he'd have to call the DC show. But this is a perfect. I'm sorry but somebody owns his name. What the fuck?

In perpetuity in all mediums and platforms forever. This is a perfect tie back to the earlier statement about, you know, do you have the appropriate kind of understanding of the risk you're taking and what kind of benefit that you're getting. I think Kanye has been doing this whole thing about he doesn't own the masters to his music originally, right?

At the moment that he signed that contract, when he signed over all the masters, you know, the master recordings and all the future revenue rights to his music, he was getting paid a ton of money in his mind at that time. He said, oh my gosh, I'm getting whatever it was.

Let's say it's $5 million. I'm getting $5 million. Most amount of money I've ever seen. It is absolutely worth me giving over the masters of this music and the future royalty rights to this music for 12 songs or whatever it is. For me to get $5 million today and I can live an amazing life and it'll change everything for me.

Who is to say that he was not, you know, of the appropriate sound mind and understanding to decide in that moment to take that $5 million and give up all future royalties to his music? Well, Chappelle's argument was the people who are in that ecosystem are all friends, they're all working together, and they've commoditized the artist, and they collude to do this kind of upside limiting deals.

And I think what makes Silicon Valley so special is that we collude the other direction. We want people to have equity participation and we want the social contract of Silicon Valley is I'm giving you equity. I hope your penny stock becomes worth $1,500 and that you create multi-generational wealth and you become an angel investor.

But I don't know. Look, if I'm an angel investor or want to be an angel investor and some schmo tricks me into investing in his shitty company and I just lose $20,000, but I didn't know how to determine whether that company was shitty. I don't know if it's shitty or not because I've never done investing before.

Read my book. Is it for the government to regulate that circumstance and say, "You know what? You need to be a quote unquote qualified investor to be able to discern a good company for a bad company or bullshit from not." And the same for these contracts, right? I mean, so we're making the argument, I think, for the regulatory framework for preventing people from being able to have freedom of choice.

And I think like earlier, the case was made like people should be able to make have freedom of choice at any point. Why should the government kind of step in and make a decision for me? I think that there, I'm not advocating for government intervention. My only point is that there are morally reprehensible things that are happening today using contracts and that, you know, something like an income sharing agreement actually rights the ship in so many ways.

That's definitely the burden of capitalism. Ultimately, it devolves to that, right? Where like, "Oh, you're sick? You have cancer? Pay me a million dollars. I'll give you this drug." So, Hollywood's a little bit of its own beast where there's all these gatekeepers always trying to get control over, you know, the creative product.

And so, yeah, like, you know, signing contracts with those sharks is always a dangerous thing to do. I think Silicon Valley is very different. We have much more of a culture of equity. I think the income sharing agreements are much more in that vein. And I think they're a great idea for like any trade that demonstrably increases your earning power, right?

So, the beauty of Lambda School is they pay for you to get an education being a coder. It then increases your salary and they get a piece of that. That's like a win-win for everybody. I think where this goes, if these ISAs are successful, is that every trade that's valuable will get its own ISA type school.

And then that gets peeled out of a university education. So, what's left for colleges to do? It's basically, you know, all the stuff that doesn't add value. They're museums. They're basically like these monasteries again, right? They go back to being monasteries. Not places where you get skills. We need to celebrate vocational capability.

Because I think like, you know, we have so celebrated this mythical bachelor's degree. And it just means fucking nothing. Yeah. Learn a trade. Learn a trade. And that's just as, frankly, that should be as respected or more. But in the American culture, you don't do that right now. I've never understood that.

If you go, for example, to different countries around the world, Europe's a good example actually of this because it's the closest. Analog in terms of quality of living to America. There's a real celebration of people who choose vocational tradecraft. Because there's an entire educational infrastructure that you can onboard yourself into.

You can become a skilled person. And you can have a really good decent life. And there's pride in the work. And there's pride in that work. And in America, you know, you covet this piece of paper. The piece of paper is really just a scam that allows, you know, administrators to basically pay themselves millions of dollars.

And they can spend or run an asset management business as the Trojan horse of that purpose. It just doesn't make any sense. And so, you know, I don't know. I just think it's, I just think. The most amazing thing about these companies, I've been digging into them because I'm looking for more to invest in.

And these companies, these companies that are the trade schools that are based themselves on ISIS. And there are ones who are doing welding and plumbing and all kinds of different things. And there are ISA platforms that are providing ISIS. And there are companies that are doing, you know, the same thing.

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