jay cal are you gonna do your trump impression we're gonna do your your okay yeah everybody i'm getting my twitter no give him derangement syndrome right before we start the pod i want to warm him up ted cruz this doesn't warm him up it gets him deranged get your show notes up let your winners ride brain man david sass and instead we open source it to the fans and they've just gone crazy hey everybody hey everybody welcome to another all in podcast with me today of course the dictator chamath palihapitiya the queen of kin wa david friedberg and of course yeah definitely the rain man is here david sachs he's an excellent driver in the driveway yeah okay boys uh i guess we made it to episode 22.

your intro becomes one second longer for every episode we do it's just so people love it and people so laborious you know they don't they think it's so stupid i am you have to understand persuasion what i'm doing is i do the same intro and it works okay we're still we're still talking about the intro okay let's just see everybody's obsessed about it you proved my point all right guys are we gonna dress elephant in the room the elephant in the room or do we just move on to topics i will say elephant in the room after the last show um i fought very hard with the three of you to not post that episode you wanted to can't you want to spike the episode i wanted to spike the episode and i'll tell you why um i thought it was not good content i don't think vlad said anything new or remarkable or interesting i don't think we had good analysis and i think the whole thing kind of felt flat and felt like a pr stunt and i felt that truly and honestly and i you know i made the case to you guys that we should cancel um obviously i lost uh and i think going forward we should have a veto right but you know we can talk about that offline did you quit the show or did you threaten to quit the show i threatened i'm gonna after this i'm gonna propose to you my rules my ground rules for for going forward one of which i think should be no more pr from jason's portfolio but um you know besides that i think i might be i think i hear a bestie guestie is that calm calm calm at the door and i i don't think that we're journalists by the way i don't i don't think that the journalism thing works for us i think we're like analysts and commentators and you know we have opinions and so to bring someone on and try and interview them with a four-on-one format it just feels weird it doesn't seem to work it doesn't create an opportunity for discourse and frankly you know um when you try and do journalism in this context you either appear like you're softballing or you appear like you're doing gotcha journalism and i think both are bad and so i think it works really well when the four of us just kind of chat and analyze and shoot the and have opinions and talk and debate um and so my vote is to kind of avoid doing bestie guesties unless you know it's something pretty amazing and critical and we can all kind of build a dialogue with that person around a topic but um yeah so that's kind of my where i'm sitting and and how i feel about it but we've had a lot of debates obviously since since the last episode about it can i can i build on what you're saying um you know this is like kind of like that really uh famous teddy roosevelt quote about sort of like the man in the arena with the dust on his face right um i feel like all four of us are in the grind doing things and i think what makes the podcast good is it's almost like there's like you know in a basketball game of four quarters there's a time out and you come off the floor and you can actually just take a second to observe what you're seeing and then the ref blows the whistle and you go back into the game and i think for me what makes this thing so fun is i feel like every friday for these two hours you know it's basically the ref calls a timeout or the coach calls a timeout and we can just kind of take a breath and just observe all right what's happened before we get back in the arena and so you know just to your point um i don't think we're journalists and i don't think we should try to be because i don't think that's the point of what this is it should be four friends talking about things that are important and then to the extent that it's important and interesting for other people they'll listen or not listen to what you're saying and then you can just kind of go back and do what you're saying and then you can just kind of go back and do what you're saying and then you can just kind of go back and do what you're saying and then you can just kind of go back and do what you're saying and then you can just kind of go back and do what you're saying and then you can just kind of go back and do what you're saying and then you can just kind of go back and do what you're saying and then they'll listen or not listen and i think these last few weeks we got caught up a little too much and you know ratings where is it ranking how can we go higher and it's that the gamification of people's reactions that i think caused us you know to do that um whereas the episode before i actually kind of liked because draymond is legitimately one of our really good friends you know we see him we see him we see him many many times obviously less during basketball season but a ton when he's outside we play poker together we all hang out together So that to me I think is sort of inbounds.

Last week, I think we were all supposed to be on point, I'll just tell you personally for me, I had an extremely crushing two weeks of work. I was extremely tired. I ended up literally unplugging and not doing anything for three days straight and sleeping. I didn't even do my best even just to be either supportive or argumentative with Vlad.

So I don't think I got anything out of it myself. Okay, coming around the horn sacks, how do you feel that episode stands on its own? Obviously, it's very polarizing. We got barbecued in the comments, we got barbecued on Reddit, we got barbecued on social media, but then there were a large number of people who said they really liked it.

My mom, Robin Hood PR, my portfolio manager. I mean, there were people who liked it. Sequoia, I thought it was excellent. Right. There's 12 people. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In the lunch. Yeah. But give us your candid assessment, because you weren't as hard as these other two on it.

Yeah, I wasn't as hard as these other two. And I do feel like that if they felt that we were soft on Vlad, then they should have brought it harder. And they should have gone after Vlad and challenged him more. That being said, I completely understand and agree with what Freiburg is saying that, look, we're not journalists, we're not playing a game of gotcha.

It's not our job to go after Vlad, I think a lot of the comments on Twitter, that's what they wanted us to do. But that's not who we are. You know, It's difficult for business too, Sax. I mean, if you're attacking Vlad, and then the next day, we have to go into supporting founder mode.

It's kind of a bad look, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, it's not what we do, right? I mean, we are, like Jamal was saying, we are in the arena, we're doing things, we're not critics sitting on the sidelines, pointing out, you know, what the doers have done. You know, we're not critics, we're not critics, we're not critics, we're not deeds did wrong, you know, and so it's not our job to run an Inquisition on on Vlad, you know, and so we're not really equipped to do that.

I think I think freeburg is right that it doesn't really make sense to have guests on the show if the job is to, you know, to get to the bottom of something as investigators, you know, we're not we're not investigators. It was, you know, a big story, just to sort of put a cap in it from my perspective.

You know, I'm always supportive of my guys, I try to be supportive of whoever I invest in, and I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. And this is a situation where, you know, people are upset, there were mistakes that were made. And so I think anything other than demolishing Vlad is considered by some constituency as a failure, right?

And so what are we supposed to do here? I can't be trashing my own company that I'm an investor in and a supporter of and founders who I believe in it just would. Well, I think there was a moment, there was a moment in the pod, Jason, where I think actually, so on the whole, I thought Vlad did it did a good job in accomplishing his objective on our pod, which was the same objective he had in front of Congress, which was basically to run out the clock without saying very much, you know, and, you know, he actually, whoever prepped him for Congress did a pretty good job, because he testified for five hours, and said nothing quotable, you know, which which is pretty much kind of the goal in that situation.

It's kind of the goal for your head down. Yeah, exactly. So but there was a moment in the pod last week where I think Vlad got himself in a little bit of trouble. Freeberg did ask actually a pretty tough question about the guy in the street who who had lost all of his life savings.

How would Vlad respond to that? He made this claim? Well, I saved that person money because I shut down trading at the high. And then we pointed out No, I mean, it was a high because you shut down trading, you have the causation backwards. And then you you ran and said, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, you're not going to get paid for this.

And then you're like, well, my guy was on the floor, I gotta pick him up. What are you talking about? I call the timeout. I got in there. But let's Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All right, let's move on. Let's do we talk about the insanely high profile guest that was planned for March 5, that just canceled on?

No, we should we should talk to we put it on the table. Because I you know, this is the other thing about protocol, just say Freeberg is, if we have a guest on, you cannot just spike the guest if they took the time to be on that was my unless you tell them before they come on, I think it doesn't code if we don't like it.

Yeah, I think they get that right. None of us do this for a profession. None of us are getting paid. We don't have any advertisers like, I completely agree. We're not here to get a PR machine for people. I mean, Vlad had his friggin PR woman sitting on the zoom call while we were doing it last week.

You know, I like I just don't think that's a little inside baseball that got interesting. I think explain what happened when Well, no, we don't have to go there, Jason. I just think I just think what Freeberg says is right. Like, we we do this, we don't make any money from it.

We do it because we like it. We like to talk we I think we all learn from it. I think other folks enjoy it. They learn from it. But I do think that Freeberg's right. We're not going to be used as a show. I think we're learning as this goes.

I think we're learning what the ground rules should be just like any other business. Vlad's made mistakes, he's going to change. We've made some mistakes and we're iterating and I think one positive iteration that Freeberg has proposed is if any one of us don't like an episode because we think it's basically moving away from our values, we should be able to spike it and I support that.

I support it. Generally, but I don't like the idea of inviting a guest on and then it doesn't go well. And then telling, you know, from our perspective, it makes us look bad. And then we tell the guests, well, you came out good, and we came out down, therefore we're killing.

No, no, I don't think that's the point. I think what Freeberg says is like, look, this is not for to be a marketing thing. And so we're going to ask things that are exposed that are about having a real conversation, where there's real honesty. And if you're going to just be there and bat around as SAC said to run the clock out, then we're just going to spike.

Fair enough. Fair enough. I think that's communicated ahead. I'm okay. By the way, come with your a game. And this is a great segue to talk about what actually we were a person that was going to come on and realize that they probably were going to get so pilloried that they basically spike themselves is yeah, they opted out Chesa Boudin, the district attorney of San Francisco.

Tell tell the guys what happened sex. Well, no, we invited him to come on the podcast. No, no, we didn't invite him to come. He was an intermediary said that she could get him on the pod. Would we like to have him on the pod? We said, we discussed it.

We said, sure, have Chesa Boudin on and then go from there. Sex. We didn't like seek him out. He was well, okay. So he he great. So he but he agreed to be on the show. And then you are scheduler got an email out of the blue, like a day or two ago saying, sorry, he's not coming on the show.

No explanation. Right? And that what happened? Yeah, that's basically it. I mean, so look, here's what I would say is, um, Chesa, Mr. District Attorney, you don't have to come on the show, but I will challenge you to a debate. Anytime, any place, any format on your policies in San Francisco.

So if you have, if you have the huevos to engage in a debate, I am ready. And I thought Chesa was a guy who had a little bit of courage. I mean, there was that night when people were discussing the situation in San Francisco and on clubhouse and he jumped into the room.

So he was like, I'm going to go to the clubhouse. I'm going to go to the clubhouse. I'm going to go to the clubhouse. I'm going to go to the clubhouse. So I thought this was a guy who had some cojones. So Chesa, if you have, if you have the chutzpah, if you have the cojones, if you have the huevos, let's debate, let's talk about your policies.

And by the way, he's an expert. This is what he does. You know, for a living. Isn't he a defense attorney, Sachs? You're going to have a, he was a public defender. He should, he should mop the floor with me. I'm just some shallow tech bro. Yeah. Tech bro.

Tech bro. Who doesn't know anything who he can easily demonize. So I would say, come on, let's go. Let's do a debate. I'll agree to whatever format you want, but we need to talk about what's happening in San Francisco because crime is out of control and it's his fault.

Trigger the young Spielberg Rain Man song right about. Here we go. Drop it. Boom. Baby I'm the rain man. With me cackling in my mind. Should we talk about it? Let's talk about it. We should talk about what's happening in San Francisco. Okay. So since, since the last pod there, there has been another victim.

Sheria Mas, Mas Yoka, who was a young, young man from, from originally from Kenya, who he came to the United States for college, just like Hannah Abay who was killed on New Year's Eve. He went to Dartmouth. All of his advisors said he was brilliant. He had a young wife and a three-year old baby.

He was in San Francisco for 10 days, goes out running and gets. Hit gets, gets killed by another drugged out hit and run driver who had been named let's say, I think it was Jerry, Jerry Oli Adams or something like that. I don't have the, the guy's name, but he was arrested four or five times in the last year.

And he was released every single time by Buden's office. It's, it's just like the New Year's Eve story where you had this repeat offender, Troy McAllister hit, you know, his wife, his wife, his wife, you know, he was, he had stolen a, a car. He was fleeing another crime he had committed.

He was on drugs and he killed Hannah Abay and Elizabeth Platt. And this was, this was another case where he was caught five times over the past year. And every single time he was not charged by boot and he was just let go. And so we have this case, we have a, a district attorney who doesn't wanna prosecute people.

His agenda is decarceration. It's like a fire chief who doesn't believe in using water. Yes. And, and. Bur he, he is part of the. all down party yeah let me challenge you with the argument he might make which i think i've heard him make a few times um which is really um a position on the criminal justice system not necessarily on local prosecution but really what he says is once um you know once someone ends up in the criminal justice system in the united states it causes this cycle of recurrence and the cycle of repeat that is very difficult to get out it basically minimizes the opportunity for reform uh for an individual for a criminal to reform themselves and to have a shot at being a successful member of society again in the future and the objective is find other ways to to kind of accelerate reform and not use incarceration as the only tool in the toolbox what is um you know what is the the argument back to him when he makes that point because i've heard him make that point a number of times and how do you kind of move past that uh that point with him yeah so so i'm not saying that incarceration is the only answer but buden's only answer is decarceration he doesn't want to prosecute anyone he doesn't want to lock anybody up and we see the results immediately in this community you have these repeat offenders now killing people they should have been locked up um it's you know buden's always putting forth these elaborate theories this is you know the the central chronicle an article about it about why these crimes are occurring and why they're happening and so i think that's a really important point and i'm going to occur and he never wants to put the fault on the people who are actually perpetrating the crimes as always economic desperation he just put it forward a theory that a decline in tourism is causing uh people to commit more uh home invasions you know he he never wants yes this was in the service school chronicle article here i'll put it up on the screen i mean the other thing you left out david i'll say is and this was really you know hits home to anybody with kids is a food driver for doordash not that it matters which service but was in san francisco's pacific heights neighborhood which is the safest and most elite neighborhood uh in it's you know the beverly hills or bel air of san francisco um and his car was carjacked with his four-year-old daughter and two-year-old boy inside now of course you should not be leaving two kids in the car putting that aside that mistake which i'm sure this father is suffering over but he's not going to be able to get out of the car and he's not going to be able to get out of the car but he needed to make deliveries obviously he made a mistake leaving the kids in the car but the we all got an amber alert last week on our phones i mean this is the law level of lawlessness it's turned into escape from new york level gotham city level chaos and the criminals know they will not be prosecuted and this is the key criminal justice problem here if you say you are not going to prosecute crime and you demonstrate to the hardest core faction of the criminal justice system that you are not going to prosecute they're going to take advantage of that weakness and and that's what's happening let me take the counterpoint just for a second just so we can construct what the other side of the argument looks like the other side of the argument says okay these folks are largely you know engaged in an enormous amount of petty crime to support their drug habit right i think that's probably the and that you know underneath that is just an explosion uh of opioids and fentanyl and whatnot underneath that is sort of economic and social violence and i think that's probably the most important thing that's happening right now is that you know the drug habit is going to be a huge problem for the people that is sort of economic uncertainty that's been compounding and just basically cresting over um and so folks would say okay these guys are a victim of a much broader economic malaise that needs to get fixed i'm just i'm just you know you're shaking your head jason but i'm just saying i think that that's where the trail of breadcrumbs grows in the counter in the counter in the in the counter argument so well these are these are the types of arguments that jason makes in order to um obfuscate and disguise that his real agenda is basically radical his real agenda is basically radical his real agenda is basically radical decarceration you know he's got this this decarceration you know he's got this this decarceration you know he's got this this childhood background where his parents childhood background where his parents childhood background where his parents went to jail when he was just a baby and went to jail when he was just a baby and went to jail when he was just a baby and he grew up he says his earliest memories he grew up he says his earliest memories he grew up he says his earliest memories are visiting his parents in jail and it are visiting his parents in jail and it are visiting his parents in jail and it profoundly affected his political views profoundly affected his political views profoundly affected his political views and now we have to suffer through this and now we have to suffer through this and now we have to suffer through this we're suffering for his childhood trauma we're suffering for his childhood trauma we're suffering for his childhood trauma here's his childhood trauma and so so here's his childhood trauma and so so here's his childhood trauma and so so tramath you're right about deeper causes tramath you're right about deeper causes tramath you're right about deeper causes but it doesn't but it doesn't but it doesn't excuse the need to excuse the need to excuse the need to lock people up when they are dangerous lock people up when they are dangerous lock people up when they are dangerous to the community and it's not just petty to the community and it's not just petty to the community and it's not just petty crime i mean let's go through that the crime i mean let's go through that the crime i mean let's go through that the actions he's taken as da okay so first actions he's taken as da okay so first actions he's taken as da okay so first week on the job just about he abolished week on the job just about he abolished week on the job just about he abolished the whole cash bail system okay which the whole cash bail system okay which the whole cash bail system okay which voters in november voters in november voters in november just voted uh in with prop 25 to affirm just voted uh in with prop 25 to affirm just voted uh in with prop 25 to affirm so voters of california want the cash so voters of california want the cash so voters of california want the cash bail system because it keeps criminals bail system because it keeps criminals bail system because it keeps criminals locked up what chase has said is that he locked up what chase has said is that he locked up what chase has said is that he would replace cash bail with an algorithm would replace cash bail with an algorithm would replace cash bail with an algorithm well what exactly is that algorithm he well what exactly is that algorithm he well what exactly is that algorithm he won't explain well he won't submit to won't explain well he won't submit to won't explain well he won't submit to third party audit there is no algorithm third party audit there is no algorithm third party audit there is no algorithm they're just letting people go okay then they're just letting people go okay then they're just letting people go okay then the next thing he did was fire seven the next thing he did was fire seven the next thing he did was fire seven veteran prosecutors in the da's office veteran prosecutors in the da's office veteran prosecutors in the da's office who weren't on board with his agenda who weren't on board with his agenda who weren't on board with his agenda these are people who have spent their these are people who have spent their these are people who have spent their whole lives prosecuting murders rapes i whole lives prosecuting murders rapes i whole lives prosecuting murders rapes i mean hardcore crime and it takes years mean hardcore crime and it takes years mean hardcore crime and it takes years of experience to learn how to be a of experience to learn how to be a of experience to learn how to be a prosecutor like that so for him to just prosecutor like that so for him to just prosecutor like that so for him to just purge this office of these veteran purge this office of these veteran purge this office of these veteran prosecutors is a disaster for the city prosecutors is a disaster for the city prosecutors is a disaster for the city i've been talking to people i've been talking to people i've been talking to people who used to work in the da's office and who used to work in the da's office and who used to work in the da's office and they tell me that the problem goes much they tell me that the problem goes much they tell me that the problem goes much deeper than that that in addition to deeper than that that in addition to deeper than that that in addition to these seven veterans he purged these seven veterans he purged these seven veterans he purged over 30 prosecutors which is about a over 30 prosecutors which is about a over 30 prosecutors which is about a quarter of the whole office have left quarter of the whole office have left quarter of the whole office have left under his reign because they don't like under his reign because they don't like under his reign because they don't like working for him so you know and he working for him so you know and he working for him so you know and he complains about being short-staffed he says a lot that he can't you know prosecute everyone he needs to prostitute he's so short staffed the reason he's short staff is no one wants to work for him you know by the way i think it's worth highlighting this guy was elected right so the the the city uh the voters in the city in a runoff i understand right he won by something like 2 000 votes it was a tiny tiny number of votes regardless people voted him in on a platform that he very clearly articulated and is now realizing in office so there was something about that platform that i think is worth noting was and is appealing uh and and probably is to a large number of people large differences right and no the the the part of it that's appealing okay is that is that is that we we do believe that there are too many people in prison and that a better and a better way to deal with a drug addict who commits say petty theft is to send them to treatment okay as opposed to putting them in prison right so i think we can all agree on that but but his agenda is so much more radical than that he just doesn't want to lock people up take um take troy mcallister okay this is a dangerous person who uh he was uh he was facing trial for his third strike okay he committed armed robbery he robbed a store with a gun okay he was facing a third strike for that for that robbery and one of the first things uh chase did when he came in was basically uh release him for time served he basically pleaded that down that was someone who's facing a life sentence that is the reason why hannah abe and elizabeth platt are dead is because he didn't want to prosecute that's a violent offender i'm not disagreeing by the way i think like what is interesting to me is that so many people um have an eye on and agree with the notion that criminal justice system needs reform the problem is realizing that reform with a radical district attorney doesn't really resolve to a solution it resolves to more problems on a local level here's what's good and even chase has said this publicly which is like you can't just solve this problem from the da's office it is a much bigger and broader problem and the radical action he's taking isn't solving any problems it's creating far more and um i think it is worth noting though that there is should and likely will be especially with kamala harris uh um as vice president some attempts at reforming on a federal level um uh you know how how criminals are treated how the system um realizes opportunities for them to reform and come back into society as productive members but to your point you lose all sense of safety and security if you try and do it solely on the local level well let me let me ask a question like look now we have basically political activism and judicial activism on not just the right right people used to pillory trump for putting in all these you know extremely conservative judges who felt they were going to just sort of like legislate their own point of view um you know supreme court nominees who were going to try to overturn roe v wade uh but it turns out it's happening on the left as well i guess just more at the local level um how pervasive is this like meaning the issues of san francisco are these are these the same issues of other cities and towns in america well i mean you've got gascon in l.a who's running the exact same agenda as chase abudin he's not prosecuting third strikes he was just sued by an organization of deputy da's and the judge is now requiring him to uphold the law which is three strikes he will not bring third strike charges on his own he's also this is both gascon and buddha now have prohibited prosecutors from attending the parole hearings of dangerous convicts murderers rapists whatever and victims groups are up in arms because they need a prosecutor to go there and explain to the parole board why this person does not deserve to be released and so you now have recall movements forming by the way they've also done stuff like take death penalty off the table they've take taken action taking gang enhancements off the table they're like voluntarily they're unilaterally disarming their their their prosecution teams they're taking away weapons at their disposal to lock people up and this is why you're already seeing recalls forming around gascon in l.a there's now a recall of uh buddh informing okay david david go back to what freeburg just said they're probably not doing a bait and switch on their platform so let's just like what do you think it is about what they are saying that resonates with the plurality of people yeah here's the thing that resonates um and it's not that again it goes back to this idea that incarceration is definitely not the only answer this is where i agree the problem is budin is on the other side of it where decarceration is his only answer right we need to use uh multiple weapons or tools in our toolkit here so so hold on so for example okay let's take the let's take the drug addict who commits a petty theft we all agree that the drug addict is a criminal and we all agree that person should go to treatment not to jail or prison right a non-violent of course offender okay reason but how are you how are you going to get that person to go to treatment because right now there is no leverage whatsoever to get that person to go to treatment because buddhism's not bringing charges he's not prosecuting the choice should be given to that person listen you can either go to jail or you can go to treatment yeah what's it going to be now we have all these social services guess what nobody uses them because a hardcore addict is not going to avail themselves of those services i would make the argument that we have a broader bigger problem with the criminal justice system as it operates and it is deep and it is complex and it is friggin awful there's a book from a few years ago that this guy named shane bauer wrote i'm just trying to remember the name i think it's called american prison and uh the guy goes undercover and he goes and works in a in a in a in a penitentiary in louisiana um and he reports on what the conditions are like and these are these these prisons that are run by private companies that are contracted by the state locally and what it's like to be an employee at one of these companies and what these employees do and how the prisoners are treated there is no system for reform once you end up behind bars in most prisons in the united states and that is um you know he makes the argument others have made the argument that is a uh has a long history that dates all the way back to slavery in the united states and in some cases it's just about ineptitude and in some cases about unions especially in california where we have a huge cost for for corrections and for the uh the health care and the pensions for corrections officers um and so there's a lot of complex competing interests in history that relates to why this criminal justice system doesn't largely work on a moral and ethical basis as we might all kind of you know wear our hearts and look at like at how things are working and so the problem is everyone sees this or a lot of people will see this voters will see this system treating people poorly being inept being corrupt and they want to be racist and they want to fix it and the way they fix it is they see a guy who shows up and he's like i'm a sledgehammer and i'm going to fix it i'm going to take care of all these people and the reality is when you try and take a shotgun and shoot it inside of a room it's going to cause more problems than good and i think that's really what he is he is a manifestation of the anger of voters and the anger of people that look at how complex and racist the system is and how difficult it is to resolve these problems and we're all looking for a simple big hammer answer and he's got the biggest mouth around and the biggest hammer and that's why people vote for him all right and then we'll wrap it up absent a few uh words specifically racist if you took that out you could use that entire statement you said and describe trump as well meaning the left and the right are moving to these polls where it's all about authoritarian sort of strongmen at the federal state local level folks to your point david that just want to go and take a sledge hammer to things and depending on your political beliefs or depending on the biases or depending on your life lived you're going to gravitate to these two poles and what's crazy is over the next 20 or 30 years these polarizing figures will become crisper sharper smarter you know they'll find a way to foment all of all of the support without any of the long tail shittiness that trump figured out like trump was you know he's like a beta test of an idea right he was like version 0.1 wait till we see version 1.0 of the american strongman or strong woman it's really going to be scary well yeah and this is this is a guy who um was a fan of of hugo chavez long after he revealed himself to be a strongman intent on ruling for life and so yeah he is very much in that mold he is a sledgehammer to the system but but look i think and and the problems are big and complicated but look we all have a role to play the reformers have a role to play public defenders and defense attorneys have a role to play and the district attorneys and prosecutors have a role to play and the problem we have right now and the role of the district attorney is to prosecute i don't think that this by the way sax is a very difficult problem to solve i think there are just so many misaligned incentives it's very clear that we don't try to reform people when they go to prison and that there's a weird incentive when it's a for-profit or a for-profit or a for-profit or a for-profit prison and the customers and the revenue is based on how many people you have in the prison so if we just get rid of that there's no private prisons where people have an incentive to keep people in there and then if we made treatment free for everybody and had over capacity of treatment centers and then we look at the drug schedule and say these are the drugs that are not co these are the drugs that are not harmful and these are the drugs that are really really really harmful we're looking at a fentanyl issue like it's a cannabis issue and that that's drugs you know cannabis versus fentanyl is like a nuclear bomb versus like a slingshot there's no comparison between these two things right and but here's the thing no one's going to treatment when they're not forced well of course right but there's no treatment to go to maybe the wait for treatment is six no no that's not true that's not true in a lot that's not true we we have a lot of social services that aren't being used there are there is a lot of treatment available people don't want to go to the drug store and they're not going to be able to get treatment unless they really want to go to the drug store and they don't want to do it unless they really have to let me bring it back to where we were before maybe the right thing is to actually have a bunch of these sledgehammer folks go off for the next 10 or 20 years you know the trumps and the chess of buddhins maybe they're all the same and maybe what we're all just saying is enough's enough this system doesn't work so let's just tear it down every single brick of it brick by brick at the local state and federal levels all i'm saying is um just i just want to get your reaction to that statement guys maybe maybe that's what people are that that is what budin is doing is he is deconstructing the district attorney's office from the inside he is destroying it he is not bringing charges against people he's driving away all the veteran prosecutors but two he's bringing in he's bringing in all his he's bringing in his own people who all were public defenders and have that mindset and people are dying look we can see the results right now in the streets innocent people are dying hannah abe elizabeth platt sharia it's an emergency but to chamath's point is there any validity sacks or friedberg to the burn it all down cause chaos and then people come in and say you know what that's not gonna this needs to be fixed let's have a new one discussion will nuance be added to this discussion sacks we need to improve things incrementally okay you're not going to make things better by dismantling the whole district attorney's office i mean come on we need to improve things incrementally yeah i mean look everything looks exponential until it cycles back so you know you're only going to have so much um evolution to gotham in san francisco until enough people put their hands in the air and say okay you know time for a change let's go back and let's start fixing this they are they are saying that that's why we're having that i mean there's a recall chesa boone movement flexing a muscle and making it stronger i think you know we're learning a lot about what approaches to criminal justice reform work and what approaches do not work and it is clear that a local only non-prosecution position is not going to work with respect to both criminal justice reform and the satisfaction of the society at large um and we're realizing that and i think we we are inevitably i mean there's so many people that are up in arms we are inevitably going to cycle back the other way at some point very soon here yeah and honestly i think you guys are over intellectualizing this a little bit you know when when sharia uh died because he got hit by by that repeat offender they asked his uh wife who's responsible for this she said very clearly the d.a that is who's responsible and she's right let's stop over intellectualizing this i know that's a good thing but i think it's a good thing to do and i think it's a good thing to do and i think it's a good thing to do and i think it's a good thing to do and i think it's a good thing to do and i think it's a good thing to do and i think it's a good thing to do and i think it's a good thing to do and i think it's a good thing to do frankly people like chesa pray on that because they can kind of obscure what they're doing with you know some nice sounding obfuscations nice sounding words but the reality is he's not prosecuting the way he needs to we got to stop this yeah and it is possible to have nuance and to hold multiple ideas in your head at the same time david you could there's a practical reality too people cannot murder people people cannot drive in cars and run around the streets red lights on fentanyl while saying the criminal justice system is incredibly biased and racist and people who are of color in texas you know wind up in jail for five or ten years for selling a bag of weed and then we're investing in companies that are making weed gummies or people are buying stock in weed companies at the same time you can't have one person who's a black teenager in texas going to jail for decades for doing what somebody in california or seattle or canada is getting an ipo for i mean this is a fundamental injustice in the world and you're right that's something that chesa prays on but there must be nuance here where we look at each individual situation say what are the ways to solve the problem surgically not with a shotgun to david freeburg's point but with maybe a scalpel and a and a sniper rifle do we want to move on to questions from our audience because they submitted hundreds of questions or do we want to move on to the australian news and facebook backing out of publishing news if that's a good thing or a bad thing let's end with the q a i think you're going to have to do that i think you're going to have to do that i think you're going to have to do that i think you're going to have to do that i think you're going to have to do that sacks what the is going on with sacks what the is going on with facebook and australia and climate change and this is facebook and australia and climate change and this is insanity yeah so i think what's going on in insanity yeah so i think what's going on in australia is is contemplating a law that would australia is is contemplating a law that would require facebook and google and i think just those require facebook and google and i think just those two companies to essentially pay royalties for hyperlinks to to to news publications and i think this is mostly at the behest of some powerful uh newspaper magnates down there i think like rupert murdoch and i love the way you say magnates well they are i mean you know um and so uh it but but this issue is going to be very closely watched by europe and maybe even the us um it's basically a tran like a a wealth transfer from google and and facebook to the traditional media and to traditional publishers um this is an issue where i actually i actually um side with with zuckerberg and facebook on this i mean i kind of throw up a little bit in my mouth saying that but um uh but uh no but look tim berners-lee has come out and said that it could really interfere with the open internet and the worldwide web if you start to tax hyperlinks i mean historically hyperlinks and the titles on hyperlinks were um were were fair use you could you could use those things without violating somebody else's copyright or need to pay them a royalty and so i think that it's it's bizarre to me that that facebook and google wouldn't now be able to use hyperlinks and i'm kind of worried about where that goes and uh you know well facebook facebook said that they're not going to publish links now for australian news and then but then they followed that up with they were also going to start uh dismantling any anti-climate change content i don't know if that's just just in australia well there's labeling so there's another thing going on which is they've decided now to label any posts involving climate change which is part of the whole censorship debate and um and so yeah i mean well it's separate but related in the sense that the traditional media is cheering on censorship but then when facebook essentially uh censors these links because they don't want to pay royalties to traditional media then the traditional media is up in arms and so they're very selective in how they how they view these issues my principle is very consistent which is i want an open internet i'm against censorship in all of its forms and i and i you know and i'm worried that this new australian law could really lead to some lead to an overall reduction or shutdown here's what's really i think going on is that with fair use the doctrine of fair use it's a four-part test uh you're a lawyer obviously you know all this sax but to sort of educate people in the audience who don't there's no specific uh number of characters no specific percentage of the original work that you uh can use you to clear yourself of fair use fair use is a test when it goes before a judge a judge looks at this four-part test the percentage of the work you used is the public confused you're not going to be able to get a fair use of the original work you're going to be able to get a fair use of the original work you're going to be able to get a fair use of the original work you're going to be able to get a fair use of the original work you're going to be able to get a fair public confused?

Is there some educational or criticism version of it? So if you were to use 10% of this podcast, and you were to wrap it with, you know, put us in a picture window, and you were 50% of it, there was no confusion that you were commenting on this, that would be fair use.

Or if you were to use it in educational system, and if you were monetizing it. Now, if you were to just clip our pockets, like this one website, clip the podcast that made 60 clips of it took our file and I sent them a cease and desist action said, Hey, don't do this.

We're doing it ourselves. They fought us. They said, we're fans. And I said, I don't care if your fans are not, you're not linking back, you're not giving us credit. And you're doing 60 clips. If you want to do one or two clips, and you want to comment on it, that's fine.

But you can't take all 60 clips and make a 60 clip version of this. And so fairness is in the word fair use. The problem with Zuckerberg and with how Google has used journalists content is they are clipping out specific sections of it and putting it in something called one box on Google.

So many of you might have said how many people you know how many pounds are in you know, whatever or what time is this TV show on and then the content that was made by the ringer or the New York Times gets clipped and they put just that section David with an algorithm and they give you the answer.

So you don't need to go visit that website. This is tipping over into what I would call unfair use because you're okay, eliminating the person linking now let me finish. Yeah. If it was just the URL and you didn't pull the headline, you didn't pull the abstract, you didn't pull a photo, that would be fine.

There is a very easy solution to this, which is if you want to pull the link and the headline, you pay $0. But if you want to pull anything else, 100 characters, etc, you need to get a license from that person, unless you are doing actual criticism. So there's nothing to stop anybody in Australia right now from taking a screenshot of a New York Times story, or an Australian, you know, newspaper story and writing some commentary on it, you just can't wholesale take everything.

And so what we're seeing here is a real time negotiation between private parties into what is fair. And I think Google has a really rich history of sharing revenue. The App Store, they give 70% to app developers, YouTube, they give 55% to creators. And with AdSense, they let you put AdSense on your website, and they give you 68 cents on the dollar or something in that range.

They never actually disclose the exact percentage. But that's what I'm told it is. Facebook has given $0.8 million to the New York Times, which is a huge amount of money. And they're giving $0 to Instagram users $0 to WhatsApp users $0 to Facebook folks, they're too greedy. And what Facebook needs to do is either not use the content, or come up with some reasonable payment and come to an agreement with these folks who are now banding together.

And they're realizing the traffic we get from Facebook and Google is not worth what they're taking away from with us, which is all that revenue that you know, they earned in the free market. And so this is a free market debate. And I think the reason why I'm saying that is because I think it's a good way to get people to give away some of the money that they're getting out of it, to a certain extent, and let the free market work, which is all publishers should get together in the United States and confront Facebook and say, pay us, unless you use anything more than the headline.

But Jason, I think these things are interconnected, though, right. On the one hand, if you're, if you have an economic stake in distribution of content, but then you're also then going to decide under, you know, an opaque definition, what is truth or not truth, purest form definition of a publisher.

Right. And I think it just becomes a very treacherous place for both Facebook and Google to end up in. So it's almost Google's paying the bell, by the way. Yeah, no, you're right. Google's paying for it. Facebook's decide not to but Facebook, they said something like only 4% of their their their posts involve this kind of content.

So it's just not a big deal for them the way it is for for Google. Well, I think it is a big deal for Facebook. They're just trying to make a point here because Zuckerberg's Yeah, yeah. They're being they're being they're being overly heavy handed in their response. There's no question about they're they're throwing their weight around.

It doesn't look good. But I'm not defending Facebook. I'm defending the principle. I mean, look, if this Australian principle were used, you wouldn't have the drudge report, you wouldn't be able to create a site of news. No, you could if it was commentary. You could put the link and write commentary.

It's when you just rip the links people are objecting understood ripping the links without any commentary. Judge report re rewrites the headline puts his own spin on it and then links. He would never get caught up in that. Yeah, I think that's a good point. Yeah, I think that's a good point.

And the people who are objecting to this are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who are the people who object.

What they're objecting to is taking the photo, taking the first paragraph, and the the this the synapses is 30 or 40% of the value. And so Facebook is a better and Twitter is with their algorithms are better front pages than the New York Times front page. Well, why isn't this applying to Twitter, then?

I think it will ultimately, they'll go there as well. I think this will become the test case, which is if you want to take more than just the headline, and like, you know, basically, that's it, or the URL, if you want to have that little snippet, pay us, pay us something, it doesn't have to be a lot.

But this could actually solve if these networks that are making 10s to hundreds of millions of billions of dollars, if they just said, you know what 1% to the news organizations to keep them viable, just like anybody else would pay in a licensing fee for terrestrial. Why is why is the Australian government setting the price?

And why are they only applying this to Google and Facebook? Well, I think they're going to go right down the line. I think it's just a starting point. But to my point, I said earlier is I don't think the government needs to do this, right? I think the news organizations on mass should get together and put their foot down and say no.

And if they would get paid, it sounds like what the government should do is clarify what fair use entails. And then maybe it's just maybe it's a link plus a title. I mean, look, it's never just a link, right? It's a hyper link. Plus the snippet plus the work.

Yeah, exactly. Yes. So it is the issue. Right? So fine. So the government should clarify what fair use is. And then if Google and Facebook or whoever want more, they got to go negotiate for it. Exactly. But but Australia is doing more than that. They're setting the price. And they're limiting their overreaching policy just to Google and Facebook because they know that if they applied it to everybody, by the way, we do that we already do this in the United States, David with local carriage of news organizations on the international TV.

So we already have we already mix it up with the FTC doing this with licenses and the public good. So it's the extent I think the other thing that you know, is going to happen with all of this is like on the other on the other side of this, the actual media organizations themselves that theoretically could benefit from this are frankly just going out of business anyways.

There's a, you know, there's a Wall Street Journal alert for the owner of the LA Times who's about to sell the times like, it's very likely that the times in four or five years, it's going to be a lot of money. And so it's going to be a lot of money.

And so it's going to be a lot of money. And so it's going to be a lot of money. And so it's going to be a lot of money. And so it's going to be a lot of money. And so it's going to be a lot of money. And so it's going to be a lot of money.

And so it's going to be a lot of money. And everybody's just going to be an individual person, blogging and tweeting whatever opinion they want. Right? So there'd be no money to pay anybody because it won't really matter. But what will be left is then these rules on arbitration of fact and fiction.

And I think that that's where we're going to end up that's going to be a crazy place. Because then those folks those folks then really are the puppet masters. Yeah, I agree that these traditional publications have like a fundamental business model problem. And it's not going to be solved.

Like I think there's a like a misplaced blame on Facebook and Google. I mean, the fundamental problem with all these publications are you go search for a news article on something and there's like 10 versions of the same thing, or more 100 versions. And you know, when when newspapers we saw 1000s of newspapers all across the country, and they had a local geographic monopoly.

But once it all got digitized and moved online, you realize how much redundancy there was you have 1000s of reporters creating the exact same thing. And there needs to be consolidation, it doesn't make sense to have 100 articles. Not only that, but a point we made last time, which is, you know, facts have largely commoditized or most facts, like, you know, remember, we used to open the newspaper and look at what the stock market prices were, we opened the newspaper and look at the sports scores.

We looked at what happened in this place in this place, facts about events, facts about the prices of things, facts about sports scores, that's all completely commoditized. I mean, that's like 90% of the content of what people used to read the newspaper for has gone online. And so as we talked about last time, newspapers and publications of the like have largely moved into, you know, different sorts of narrative.

And, you know, it's created a marketplace that has a lot more competition, because anyone can write that, as we were seeing with substack and medium and as we're seeing with our own podcast, we're seeing with our own podcast. And I think that's, this feels to me like, you know, I went to a media conference back in 2008.

And there was this huge battle between Google and Viacom. And I was at the conference, and I think Larry Page is on stage or someone what or Eric Schmidt was on stage and the Viacom CEO got up and he's like, when are you going to start paying us for our content?

And I think that that and he really screamed at him in a room of like 800 people. And I feel like that same kind of point of view has persisted until there's finally some legislation that they feel kind of gets them justice. Meanwhile, the world has passed them by.

And, you know, I think this, this will be kind of some transitory legislation that ultimately the content is going to democratize anyway, and the content creation is going to democratize last topic for me, because I really want Friedberg's answer to this, because I also just saw an alert, how the federal government is opening up a vaccination site in Miami Dade County actually saw Francis Suarez retweeted.

What the hell is going on with vaccinations? Are we going to get vaccinated soon? I said it in December, and I tweeted about it. And I've repeated it multiple times since that the US has enough supply to vaccinate pretty much anyone that wants to get vaccinated, because we are producing and delivering three to 4 million doses per day in the US right now.

And there is a just a fundamental issue, especially like I mean, look at California, you know, they haven't opened up, quote, unquote, vaccination to people outside of tier or what they're called tier one a. And so this is much more of a kind of policy issue, then an administrative issue than a supply and demand issue, there's enough people that want the vaccine, and there's enough vaccine to just let people get fucking vaccinated.

And so I feel like the market forces are now kind of converging with policy a little bit more than they were a month ago. And the policymakers are no longer fighting and complaining about supply and complaining about constraints. You know, we've got mass vac sites now in California, and we're still fighting for the vaccine.

So we're not really fighting for the vaccine. But the amount of money that's being wasted, by the way, in this process makes me want to vomit every time I read about it, that's a whole another separate issue. But it feels to me like we're probably May, June, when enough people are vaccinated that we can have, you know, a circumstance where people are going to fly without masks and be comfortable doing so.

But I'm sure there will be these over, you know, constraining rules around what people can and can't do in public for a very long time, like I mentioned, what happened. I do want to say one thing that I've noticed, we were, I was talking to a friend who got vaccinated.

And I was like, he said, This is my first time playing poker with people. And I was like, Well, you got vaccinated, like, why aren't you? He's like, Well, I don't know if other strains are going to get me or, you know, if this thing's evolving, and other people are going to get sick.

And if you think about what's happened over the last year, people have been conditioned to be afraid. And so even though we're getting vaccinated, even though this thing is moving and working, I'm concerned that we're not going to end up in a more civil state schools aren't opening. People aren't flying.

People aren't doing stuff, even after vaccinations and science and data shows that these things are okay, this in Florida, maybe there's maybe there's some cases of it. But what I'm saying is like, you know, the human subconscious gets trained first, and then our conscious mind rationalizes what we feel.

We've all now been trained over the past year to be very afraid. And then we all come up with these rational excuses about why I can't do x, y, and z. It's like, but you've been fucking vaccinated. You're fine. Like, all the data, all the science is go do whatever you want to do.

Go into a nightclub. Sweaty next to people. Robbing beats and music. Friedberg. Yes. Tell us about the throbbing nightclub. Yeah, it's like that. I've never seen you so animated. It's like that scene from Good Will Hunting. Remember when we talked to the psychologist, he's like, tell us about your rave stories again.

Activate fourth emotion. Throbbing rave, give up to the mob, pulsating bodies and Did the Molly just kick in Friedberg? Did you drop a Molly at the start of the pod? I think so. But my point is, like people are really afraid. And I think I just got the best idea for an episode.

The biggest concern I have is frankly less about are we going to get vaccinated? I feel like the convergence between market forces and government nonsense is now going to allow us to all get vaccinated. But she was really going to be like, how do you break through these rules and the fear that basically I want, but I don't understand where where are the max vaccination sites in California and who's eligible?

Like, why aren't we just making this thing like a drive through we should? This is where we can add. It's ridiculous. You got it. We all have absolute violent agreement that California is so messed up with respect to how we're vaccinating. We have so much supply. We're sitting on half our friggin supply right now in California.

30 million vaccines sitting on shelves. We are now at 75% deployed 80% California's got like four or 5 million vaccines sitting in storage. It should be a drive through and you just get in line and you go and some places we're doing is in you know, but what we're doing now is you got to schedule.

Oh, yeah, scheduling is bullshit. Because you first you got to qualify, then you got to schedule an appointment. And then the the clinic or whatever is only open from nine to five. And so like how many doses they really administer when you got to make an appointment probably one every half hour.

So maybe they get through 16 people a day or something like that. And prove qualifications. Yeah, and they get fined a million dollars and lose their medical license if they inject the wrong person. So I mean, you're talking about 16 people per day at a site when they could be doing a couple of hundred.

I mean, it's crazy. Well, Johnson and Johnson is coming and that's refrigerator stable, right? Freiburg. So you don't even need it. We now have bought 1.2 billion. But let me go back to Freiburg's point about when will life get back to normal. I'm not as pessimistic as you are, Dave, about this idea that life won't go back to normal.

And part of the reason why is I'm seeing so much outrage about school closures right now. California is one of the only states in the country that still completely closed all the schools and people are absolutely up in arms. I'd say it's as big an issue as this exploding crime issue.

Crime is a big issue in the city. It's a big issue in the cities and school closures is the big issue in the suburbs. And if these two things don't turn around, I think Gavin Newsom is going to get recalled. I mean, people are just on fire about this.

Yeah. But I mean, my point was like our wealthy conservative, you know, friend that lives in Florida was afraid to go do stuff even after he's been vaccinated. And I think that's what's permeated everywhere. It's just like there's a shark. Freiburg. It's like a shark attack. You know, if there's a shark attack, you know, at Half Moon Bay or whatever.

You know, like, you know, there's a shark attack. You know, it's like, oh, my God, I'm going to go to the hospital for a couple of weeks and then somebody swims in the lake. All the water is great. People will jump back in. I think it's April, David, to your point of when this goes back to normal, because if you look now, people have been saying free, correct me if I'm wrong.

Would you put a five X multiplier on the confirmed COVID cases? A four X multiplier. Five X, I think, is the right medium. So if you have 30 million people who've had the vaccine, had COVID, you're looking at five times. That is 150. Now you have 60 million people who have been vaccinated.

330 million Americans, 70 million are under our kids. So, you know, we're basically getting to herd immunity. And if you look at the slopes right now, what is causing the drop in cases this massively, David? Is it herd immunity, vaccine, or are people suddenly wearing masks? What is it?

There's complexity because everyone assumes that there's one thing that affects the whole population. But remember, the way viruses work is they're hyperlocal. And so the local population dynamics looked at on a scale is where you see the statistics. So we're looking at the statistical results of the scale. And so, you know, we saw this in North Dakota.

A bunch of people got really sick. They got to herd immunity in communities. And then all of a sudden it dropped off the curve. When you zoom out and that's happening, combined with behavioral changes, combined with vaccines, then you start to see these statistical things happen at scale. So it's not a simple answer, but the answer generally can be we are coming down the slope.

We are getting to a point of, you know, general like low case counts, low death counts, low fatality. And we should be living a normal life. We're going to be living a normal life. We're going to be living a normal life. We're going to be living a normal life.

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