- The things that you are getting in touch with, wrestling, sleep and dreaming, the ocean, there's a predictability of them because you can access them in a predictable way, but they seem to have a lot of unpredictability in them. The ocean is completely unpredictable. - I also listened to a lot of music that I don't know.

So I listened to a lot of classical music and less so, but some jazz and a lot of old music that I never heard before. And I like being surprised by music. And sometimes it really catches me off guard. Like I shazam a lot, you know, when I hear something I like.

- Have you ever encountered music that really works well live, but just does not work in a recording? Or that is that much better live, but the recording is sort of meh. You don't have to name names. - Yeah, I don't think so. I feel like maybe there are some artists who are great live who've never captured it well on record.

Example would probably be the Grateful Dead's good example of a band where I feel like their albums are not their strong point, but they're, if you hear live recordings, they're really interesting and really different from each other. And that's kind of part of what makes the Grateful Dead interesting, is their unpredictability.

- I confess, I have a sister who listened to the Grateful Dead and I got taken to a few shows when I was younger and they would do that, what is it called, space? It was like these drum solos that would go on for hours and hours. This is like the antithesis of punk rock shows where songs are like 90 to 120 seconds.

And like, you know, and I remember thinking like, what is this? What is this? But people I know who love the Grateful Dead, love that uncertainty about where that drum thing, I think they do call it space. Forgive me, Deadheads, I'm not enough of one to get it right.

- But they're looking for something and sometimes they find it. And if you're there when they find it, it feels exciting. 'Cause it's not just following a script. It's like something is really happening. It's a real moment. It's something that I aim for in the studio is to create real moments that when you hear them, they don't necessarily sound perfect.

They sound like something that really happened. And in that moment, something happened and it's a special moment. And you can feel that if they were to play it again, it wouldn't be like that. There's something really exciting about that. It's really how jazz works as well. And I think some of bringing some of that jazz mentality into other types of music is really interesting, makes for compelling things.

'Cause when you hear them, there's a certain amount of, you really have to pay attention to do it. When you're doing it, you're really paying attention. It's like, I don't really know. There's no music, there's no map to follow. And now we're working together to make something. Do I play or not play?

When do I play? And you're really paying attention. And can I add, or you go to start adding something and someone else added something. It's like, oh, I can't do that. And it's like, everyone's just in this thing, in this moment, experiencing this thing at once that you can feel as a listener.

And we get to hear their excitement of finding it. And it's thrilling when it happens. So I like that experience. I feel like that's kind of what the dead do live. They'll play songs in different ways. And again, I don't know very much about the dead and it's newer for me to listen to the dead.

Growing up, I never listened to the dead. But probably because I heard songs on their albums and thought, this doesn't really speak to me. But I think that the albums don't really reflect what's special about them. - I think a lot of their shows were recorded, right? Or videotaped.

- Yeah, but by fans, which they supported. They supported that everybody come, everybody tape, everybody trade tapes. It made sense for who that band was. - They redefined or they defined, excuse me, the notion of followers. I mean, people literally gave up their lives or spent much of their lives literally driving from city to city to follow them.

- Because it's not like going from city to city to watch a movie over and over. 'Cause it's not a movie. It's different every night. It's changing. - Pretty incredible phenomenon. I don't know of anything else quite like it, except cults. And those often don't end well. I think a guy that mixed the pawnship for the Jonestown Masker went to my high school.

That was the- - Is that true? - I think so, yeah. - That's amazing. - My sister is really good at all this kind of like '70s, '80s, like dark psychology trivia. She's a very light person, but- - Did you read "Season of the Witch"? - No. - It's about San Francisco in the '60s.

It's great, you'll love it. - One great book. - I'll have to check it out. (upbeat music)