Let's talk about guilt and shame. Yes. I've heard some kind of catchphrase-y stuff, not from you, but like, oh, you know, guilt is about the thing you did and shame is a feeling about who we are. And you know, while I'm not against those sort of 1990s, early 2000s kind of psychology-isms, I feel like they're not very useful.

How do you define, no pressure here, but how do you define guilt versus shame and what about guilt and shame? Great. Two of my favorite topics. I have a couple of different ways of defining things. Unlike you, to me, I like defining things in ways that are very concrete and very usable.

That's all. And if there's multiple ways of doing that, that's great. So the way I think about guilt, and this will probably set us off in a direction about what is not guilt also, is guilt is a feeling I have when I act out of alignment with my values.

And in that way, guilt is a really useful feeling, real useful, because it makes me reflect on, wait, I didn't act in line with my values. I wonder why. What would I have had to do differently? What got in my way? Well, I'm so glad I have that information from my body to have this deeply uncomfortable feeling to set in that process, right?

So if I yell at my kid, I'm going to feel guilty, right? I think about a time when my kid told me, "You know, I lied to you. I did take that eraser from that kid in school, and I feel really guilty." And I said, "First of all, I'm so glad you told me that.

I'm so glad you're feeling guilty. That's the right way to feel. Now, there must have been something so hard about seeing something so shiny and fun that you don't have. I totally get that." And you're right. It's not in your values to take it. So that's a useful feeling.

That feeling is going to help you not do something like that again. Let's figure out what you can do, not just to say, "Sorry, this is what parents miss. You know what's going to happen another time? You're going to see something else pretty cool, someone's cubby, and you know what most people think?

I'm going to take that." You're going to have to think again. I would too. What can you do the next time you have that thought, right? All of this comes because of guilt. Useful feeling. Guilt is a feeling you have when you act out of alignment with your values.

Now, to me, guilt is one of the most misunderstood feelings because what you hear all the time -- and you'll hear how much it kind of conflicts with this definition -- is something like this. "I haven't seen my friends in years. There's finally a dinner, but it would require me not to put my kid down to sleep." You know?

And if I'm talking to someone, I'd say, "Okay, well, I'm guessing you're not leaving your kid alone." Now, again, my husband or my mom, someone who's a totally safe adult. "But, Becky, I told my kid, and she was clinging to me like, 'No, Mommy, I needed to be you.

I needed to be you.' And so I'm not going to dinner -- do you know what I'm going to say, Andrew? -- because I feel so guilty." This is -- right. "Oh, someone asked me to be in the PTA meeting, and I'm so busy, I can't, but I can't do it because I feel so guilty." Okay.

Again, I'm just curious -- I say, "Well, it sounds like you really want to go to dinner with your friends." She's like, "Oh, I do. All I do as a parent these days, I literally haven't seen these friends in years. They're in town." And I said, "Tell me about your friendships.

I mean, you value my --" "Yes, I know that I'm kind of more than just someone who puts down my kid for bed, and I love doing that, but this matters, too." So I said, "This is really interesting. You really value your friendships. Your life right now feels out of balance in that your friendships, that part of your burner of your stove is, like, really low, okay, and you're not going because you feel guilty.

I just want to share an idea. Guilt is a feeling you have when you act out of alignment with your values. It seems like going to dinner would be in line with your values." And almost -- it's like, "Yeah, that's true. So what is this feeling?" And here's what I think the feeling is.

I call it "not guilt" just because I haven't figured out a more sophisticated term, but here's what I think is happening. A lot of us, especially women, when we were growing up, we learned to notice everyone's feelings around us, and we learned that our value, really, and our worth, really, and we were kind of best and good girls when we took care of everyone else's feelings except for our own.

I think so many young girls, especially, become expert at what people need of them by becoming distant from what they need for themselves. The picture I get in my mind is sort of like having an antennae cast in every direction except perhaps at the exclusion of paying attention to the antennae that are inward.

And we are -- you know, attentional resources are finite. I mean, we just don't have the capacity to, like, respond to other people's emotions and feel at the same time to the same degree that we would if we just concentrated on theirs or our emotions. I mean, that's just a fact of how humans work.

Yeah, and kids are oriented by attachment. They have to learn with their families, "How do I become the most lovable, safest version of myself?" So I have a friend who -- it's true. I remember her. Even in middle school, I can't come. My dad's traveling, and my mom really needs me to stay home and watch a movie with her, right?

And I know this mom well. "Oh, you don't love me. You don't --" right? I mean, this was -- so she became expert at always noticing other people's emotions and not only noticing them, taking the emotions from them, kind of like taking them into their body and almost metabolizing them for them.

That's not guilt. That is taking someone else's emotions and taking them into your body at the expense of taking care of your own needs. And so I have a visual for this, because I think it's really powerful, where -- let's say it's the situation where a mom is saying, "I really want to go out to dinner, but I feel so guilty." First thing, it's just powerful to say, "That is not guilt.

It is something else, and it is real, and it is powerful, but it is not guilt." What is happening? I'm on one side of a tennis court, like me and you, Andrew, but let's say it's a tennis court, and you're on the other side, or even -- and like in between, instead of a net, it's like a glass table.

Over here, I am here in my desire to go out with my friends, because I do value my friendships. Over there is you're upset about it. And let's say instead you're my daughter, you're like, "No, no, don't go. No one else can put me to bed." That is definitely hard to deal with, but that is your daughter's feelings.

Those are not your feelings. Those are your daughter's feelings. And some of us, slash a lot of us, have developed this tendency where we're on this court, and all of a sudden, all those feelings from your side somehow go through that wall, and they come to your side, and you call it guilt.

It is not guilt. And to me, one of the most liberating things -- and this actually relates to empathy -- is to give that feeling back to its rightful owner. Because what that means is if I really give it back, now I have a boundary. That's my kid's feeling.

That's not mine. And I can now actually empathize. People said, "No, I was empathizing. I wasn't going out." No, no, no, no, no. That's not empathy. You weren't going out with your friends because you couldn't handle the distress in your body. You just made your daughter's feelings your own.

You just engaged in something almost selfish. This has nothing to do with your daughter. In those situations, that's why we say weird things to our four-year-old. Like, "Don't you want mommy to have friends?" I feel like four-year-olds are like, "Why are you asking me that question?" It's like a pilot being like, "Don't you want me to make an emergency landing?" It's like, "If you need to make an emergency landing, don't ask me for permission." Because once I give it back to my daughter, I can do this.

I can say, "You really wish I would put you to bed tonight. You're right. It feels so different when grandma does it. Oh, it does. I'm going out. It's okay if you're upset. I'll be back and I'll kiss you and I'll see you in the morning." And then this next part's so important.

When you walk out, I don't want any person having any illusion that the daughter's going to be like, "Yes, you go, girl. No, she is going to scream. That's okay." Going back to the boundary. You're allowed to take care of your needs and other people are allowed to be inconvenienced and upset by it.

It doesn't mean your needs are wrong. It doesn't mean their feelings are wrong and it definitely doesn't mean you feel guilty.