Hold on, let's see if we get Sax on the line. All right, guys. I guess Sax is blowing it off because he's too busy with his app. No, fuck Sax. We'll start without Sax. Let's start. Let's start without Sax. Okay. Three, two... Let your winners ride. Rain Man, David Sax.

And it's sad. We open sourced it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it. Love you, Westies. Queen of Kinwad. I'm doing all in. Hey, everybody. Hey, everybody. Welcome to the All In Podcast. With us today, the Queen of Kinwad on fire in California, which also happens to be on fire, sadly, and the dictator, Chamath Palihapitiya.

David Sax will not be joining us today. He's too busy with his All In app. Oh, I'm sorry. It's actually Colin. He put a C in front of it before he co-opted the All In podcast. It's Callan. Callan. Callan. Callan. Callan. Callan. Callan app. Which has debuted. It's been good this week.

But Sax will be, if you're a Sax stan, I think Sax is... No, we've done one show without Freeburg. Now we're doing one without Sax. Yeah, this will be the Sax-free episode. It is what it is. Sax-free episode. All right. So we got a lot on the dance floor.

I'm here. I'm here. I'm here. Oh! Oh, look who joined. Oh, look who joined. I'm all too eager to take credit for Colin on Twitter, so don't pretend like you're not part of it now. The All In app? Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. I meant Colin now. No, no. The All In app.

I hope... This guy's... I hope Colin is worth a trillion dollars. Yeah. I can't believe it. This guy is complaining that I'm leveraging the pod. You know, we should have done the Adam Neumann-style licensing of the term All In to Sax and gotten paid like $7 million in equity for him using our names.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I gave you guys so many shout-outs, you know, during the whole... Oh, shout-outs? No, you didn't, by the way. No, he did, because I listened to his interview with Emily Chang, and I listened to his thing with Axios, with Dan Premack. Oh, did he?

He's very... David had a very good... He was magnanimous. ...presentation, and then he was really magnanimous and kind. So, thanks, Saxipoo. Oh, really? And I gave so much credit to J-Cal. I said that if it wasn't for J-Cal, I never would have done this whole podcasting thing, because it was too hard.

I never would have figured it out. And then you gave me a shout-out, because, like, of organizing it so that we could all be friends on... I like that. I appreciate that. Very nice. I actually haven't listened to it, but give us... For those who don't know, David Sachs has created a podcasting-slash-casual audio app.

It's called... It's called Call In. It's available for download for iOS. Just coming out of private beta. My understanding is you're at somewhere around 10,000 folks? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of sign-ups yesterday. I haven't got all the latest numbers yet, but, yeah, no, it's taking off. All the reviews of it have been sort of rave reviews.

People are really excited about it. Fantastic. But, yeah, look, the concept is we're combining social audio with podcasting. We call it social podcasting. You've seen these apps. We've seen these apps where people create a room, and they have these many-to-many conversations. They tend to be ephemeral. No one really records or saves them, and the quality of the conversation is...

It's a little bit chaotic, but we've taken that concept and put it in the service of creators who can now essentially record their pod in front of a live studio audience. They can bring up the... We call them callers. They can bring up people from the audience one by one to ask their questions.

It's much more organized and structured. It's not a free-for-all to try and grab the mic. It's not a free-for-all. And then once you record the episode, you can then go into post-production in the app. You can edit the transcript in order to edit the episode, and then you publish it, and you can share it.

Is it like... So it's basically like OnlyFans, but audio. It's OnlyFans, but for people who don't look good on camera. Do you still jerk off at the end or no? Oh! Oh! Family show. Family show. Family show. Come on. I do. I do when this becomes a unicorn show.

Oh, no! No. The plan is all getting cut, cut, cut, cut. No! No, not delete! It's my birthday today, goddammit. All right. Happy birthday, Chamath. We're going around the horn here. Everybody's patting themselves on the back. Let's all take a moment to say what we like about Chamath. Okay.

Great. Let's get back to the episode. That was quick. What do you... You know, I was thinking about, you know, what birthday present do I get for Chamath? And then I was like, gee, what do you get for the dictator who has everything? I don't know. What does Kim Jong-un need?

Exactly. Hey, guys, wait a second. Wait a second. What did they get MBS for his birthday? Hmm. Hey, we don't... Well, actually, I'll tell you. Wine. Very rare wine. Very rare wine. Very rare wine. No, actually, there's actually an answer to that question. Apparently, Madeleine Albright once got Kim Jong-un a basketball signed by Michael Jordan for his birthday.

So apparently that is... Yeah, apparently that's what you get, a dictator. Access. You get them access to people they wouldn't normally have or a bone saw. Oh, sorry. A very, very, very old French burgundy. Yeah. Ideally white, but the white doesn't hold up as well. But if you go back, I mean, I wonder if you could drink like a...

Yesterday, I had the two fills, Deutsch and Muth, at my house. And we drank 1996 Salon Claude de Mesnil. No, sorry, 1997 Salon Claude de Mesnil. And then we drank a bottle of 1996 Paul Roger Sir Winston Churchill champagne. Fabulous. Only champagne last night. It's fabulous. It's fabulous. We could also get you some Planonium.

Planonium if you want to... No, guys, guys, I don't need anything. You want to take out some enemies. I would like you to come and play poker next Thursday, you fuckers. And then two, let's just bring a bottle of... Bring a really nice bottle of wine or champagne. We'll drink it together.

That's fine. Oh my God, I got cases of terrible wine. I'm going to bring them. No, you asshole. Did you hear what this fucker did? Oh my God. This fucking asshole shows up. This piece of shit showed up last week. And he's like, come on, here are these fantastic bottles.

And I looked at this, it's like 1985 Caymus. And I'm like, that's not a good year. I've never... Right. Right. Right. Right in the garbage. Right in the garbage. Wait, wait, wait. It gets better. It gets better. He has two bottles. And so he gives them to Joshua. And Joshua looks at them.

And Joshua doesn't know what to think. And he looks at me and I'm like... You dropped some of the grass. I'm like, just like, you know... And so Joshua's like, wow, David, thanks, Friedberg. This is incredible. I appreciate it. And then Friedberg does the fucking most brutal thing. Open it.

Open it. Let's just drink it together. And Josh was so appalled. He opened it and poured it on Shemot's cherry tea. No one drank it. I threw it out. I threw it out. He took it right to the herb garden. No, he said, where did you find this? He goes, oh, it was in my basement in the hot, temperate, humid fucking San Francisco weather for 10 years.

Yeah. I had no idea. So I moved. You know, I moved like two weeks ago. And I went to the basement to get all my boxes. And I'm like, I've got like hundreds of bottles of wine that I have not seen in years. And I start going through these.

Not temperature controlled. Right next to the furnace. They weren't lying flat. I'm like, these things are all like... They're all corn. They're all corn. And there's like stuff from the 80s, from the 90s. Yeah. So many... The NBA Josh took them and poured them over the arugula salad. He didn't want to ruin the arugula.

No, he didn't ruin the arugula. He would ruin the fucking vegetables and herbs in the garden. He basically cleaned... I'm going to bring him in the drain. I'm going to bring him more wine next week. He poured them on Chamath's windshield. Do not bring any more wine to my house.

Oh my God. I'm bringing wine for your dog. If your dog's coming back with Nat, we've got wine. My dogs are coming back today. Yeah, they're flying back from the... All I have to say about that game is thank God Mr. Beast has 100 million followers on YouTube. R.I.P.

Mr. Beast. All right. This is... This is... First of all, I'm going to give a shout out to Mr. Beast. Mr. Beast is fucking incredible. He's a great... What a great human. What an incredible entrepreneur. What a great human being. Yeah. Good time. I mean, for 23 years old to be that sophisticated...

He's 23? 23. This guy... I thought he was 30. This guy is clearly on track to being an enormous figure in culture. Oh, he's going to be a fucking multi-multi-billionaire. He is. Easily. He is determined, hardworking, smart, kind, good to people. Ambitious. Clever. Ambitious. Amazing. He's great. And his ideas, he's creative, and he's just a good human.

I really enjoyed the time with him. Mr. Beast was one of the most impressive people I've met in a really, really, really long time. Totally agree. I mean, he and I had been texting for a long time on Twitter and then just on text. But then to finally meet him, and we had talked on the phone and we had Zoomed before.

I'd never met him in prison, but what an incredible human being. We should... Oh, why don't we have him as the bestie guestie on the pod? He totally fit in with the group, too. He was great. Just funny. You know what we should do is we should all round everybody up.

We should fly to... To... Greenville. We should surprise him. Yeah. Yeah, do a little game at his... Oh, here's an idea. What we could do is we could tweak Phil Hellmuth and just have a game and replace Phil in the game with him as our new bestie. Done. Oh, my God.

That's great. Let's replace the Muth with Mr. Beast. Replace the Muth with Mr. Beast. Replace the Muth with Mr. Beast. Kind of like a better bestie in many ways. Okay, listen. By the way, are we skipping next week to record at the symposium on Monday, or are we going to do next week and then also do Monday?

No. Double down. Okay. Double down. Yeah, let's double down. All right, listen. We have a lot of shit to cover. Good notification. We're doing our first all-together recording of the All In Pod a week from Monday at the TPB symposium. No reason to... The production board. The production board.

No reason to publicize it, but I'm excited because we're all here to kind of... It's a closed event. What is the purpose of the event? I just get together a bunch of scientists, investors, entrepreneurs, and CEOs, and it's a day of science talks mostly, and then some business talks on the next day.

But we're having a really fun event the night before with poker. Our friends are all coming to play poker, and we're going to record... I'm coming for the science day. I'm there for the full science day. Yeah, you're going to love it. I'm staying for the science day too.

I want to learn. But the poker night's going to have poker, and we're going to record the All In Pod live or together in person for the first time. First time. Yeah, that should be really cool. And for those of you wondering, we're going to do our own All In Summit, which will be probably like 100 or 200 iconoclastic people.

And we're going to probably do that in... We're going to do that in the first quarter or second quarter of next year post-pandemic. We got to choose a date. My people are going crazy because you won't give them a date. Well, you guys were... I still think we should do it in...

Here we go. In Rome. Okay. So if this tater wants Italy, Rome, Sachs wants Miami. I'm telling you guys, Hotel Lucy is maybe the sickest hotel in the world. And I'll tell you why. The people, you have never seen these people ever. Okay. These people are amazing. Amazing. They are tremendous people in Rome.

They are great. They are great. It attracts the hottest people. I mean, it's fucking amazing. All right. We're not doing it based on aesthetics. We're doing it on ideas, Chamath. It's not just aesthetics. Wherever you want. People aren't going to go to Rome. Miami, the good thing about Miami is we know it'll be open no matter what, right?

We can't count on... Yeah, we can host our own super spreader event. Fantastic. No, I mean, we're host... The Code Conference, Kara Swisher's conference is at the end of the month and Sky and Brooke and I are hosting our... We're hosting our poker again. And I was like, is there any way this conference is going to occur?

And if it does occur, what happens if they're... I mean, obviously everybody's going to be vaxxed. Everybody's going to be masked. I don't know if they're going to do testing outside. All right. You think everyone should be masked at the conference? They're going to be unless it's outside. Well, they're going to be because it's indoors and there's a breakout event amongst the vaccinated, which can happen.

Between Delta and Zeta 2, you're going to be forced to mask. What do you think, Sax? Well, I just think, how do you effectively have a... I mean, I think it's really important to have a meeting with people indoors when everyone's wearing a mask. I just think that's... We're doing that at the GPV symposium.

Really? Wait, you have to wear a mask? Indoors, not during the dinner and stuff. Look, I mean, I think for poker, but we are testing everyone on entry all three days. Okay. That makes sense to me, right? We do a rapid test at the door. And so, but then once you've done the test and someone's negative, why would you need a mask once you go in?

Well, I don't know about doing tests at Code every day. And by the way, the stupidest thing is they do stuff like make you wear the mask. But then take it off for dinner. Like what? You can't get COVID when your mouth is full? I mean, how does that work?

It makes no sense. That's the whole point. It makes no sense. Put your mask on at the hostess stand. Well, let's do risk assessment here. And then take it off when you sit down three feet away. It's security theater. Well, let's do risk assessment. None of us would go to an indoor event if it wasn't fully vaxxed, correct?

Would anybody attend an indoor event of this nature, hundreds of people, if they didn't have the vax requirement? I would. Yes. I don't care. You would? What I'm worried about is I wouldn't attend it if people weren't all being tested on entrance. Okay. Well, I'm trying to do a-- Because I don't think-- Vaxing first.

The vax doesn't seem to eliminate transmission right now. So for you to go to an event, you would have to be vaxxed and tested that day, morning of rapid test. Yeah, look, I mean, I think in general, everyone's kind of standard. It's like make sure vax because it reduces the likelihood of transmission.

But still, it's not stopping transmission, clearly. I'd rather-- what I care more about is point of entry testing, which is what we're doing I just want everyone to get tested upon entry. Shamash, what would you do? Let's talk about something important. Okay. All right, listen, I think the most interesting thing going on in our industry this week is Elizabeth Holmes's trial has begun.

Jury selection started this week, and it's going to cover 12 counts of fraud and conspiracy to commit wire fraud over false claims she made about the blood test results from Theranos. They have now selected a jury of 12 Northern California residents consisting of seven men and five women. It took two days to question around 100 potential jurors about their answers to a 28-page questionnaire that included news outlets they read, what news outlets they read, if they knew any witnesses and if they had any negative medical experiences.

And it was complicated to get these because it is impossible to not know about it. And yeah. Now, it seems the interesting thing is Elizabeth Holmes, who worked on this company for close to two decades and was involved in this fraud from start to finish, is now taking the position that she was under the control of her business partner, Sonny Balwani, and that he had been abusing her and controlling her.

What are your thoughts on... And so he's being tried separately, by the way. They're going to be tried in sequential order. So whenever this trial ends, then he gets to get tried. What are your thoughts on if she will be convicted and her defense strategy? I think this is less about the specific evidence against her as much as it's...

And it's much more right now about the whole Silicon Valley fake it before you make it. Approach to entrepreneurship. And we all hear this from all the entrepreneurial advisors and stories of experience and stories of success that in order to achieve success as an entrepreneur, you really have to oversell and promise and create an incredible narrative about where your business is headed.

And in many cases, that gets ahead of you. Now the public, the general public that doesn't operate within Silicon Valley with as much breadth as we do. I think they hear the story. They hear the story. They hear the stories of the Adam Neumanns and WeWork and the collapse and Elizabeth Holmes and this Trevor Milton guy and Nicola.

But there's thousands of these other sorts of smaller stories where a VC rolls his eyes, where the first board meeting after raising money is like, "Wait a second, we're actually going to be half our forecast when we raise money." Or the numbers are going to be way below or the product doesn't actually work as we presented it to you.

Sorry, I don't think I've ever funded a company where that hasn't been the case. Exactly. And so I think that's the big question, right, Chamath? Is like... Does this trial indict the way Silicon Valley operates and the storytelling models and the narrative models? There are examples of these people getting a little too far ahead of their skis.

And maybe you can argue, they could perceive something to be non fraudulent while other people can perceive it to be fraudulent. But don't we see this broadly in Silicon Valley? And doesn't this bring up a question on like, are all startups now... Is the industry going to have a shift as a result of this trial in terms of behavior as investors and as entrepreneurs and how you tell stories, how you diligence?

Et cetera, et cetera. This is only going to get meaningfully worse. I don't know if Elizabeth Holmes committed fraud or not. I think that these folks will be able to figure that out in detail. But here's something that I do know pretty precisely, which is the amount of money that's trying to get into Silicon Valley is going exponentially up.

And as that happens, you guys now see it every day where there are firms whose entire business now is just to literally write a check. Yeah. Yeah. every day. They're closing deals every single day. They're doing zero diligence. And so what that's going to create is an incentive for founders, particularly those whose backs are against the wall, or who's doing something that's highly speculative and hard to diligence, to stretch the truth to get the capital.

And it's impossible for guys like us to actually step in and do diligence on a lot of these companies, even if you actually have time. But then if the competitive dynamic is such that you don't even have the time because somebody else beside you is going to rip in a check by just meeting somebody, and quote unquote, having done the work on their own, which is impossible because you don't have access to somebody's financial books, this problem is only going to get worse.

And so I think we as an industry just have to realize that there's going to be an incentive to lie. There's going to be an incentive to stretch the truth. And it's because of the amount of money that's available and the lack of diligence that's happening. Yes, 100%. Sacks, is this an example in the case of Elizabeth Holmes of somebody being delusional as a strength or somebody committing fraud as a crime?

It's probably both. Now, look, I think you guys are giving a little bit too much credence to the media narrative that Theranos is a quote unquote, "Silicon Valley failure." The truth of the matter is there was no major Silicon Valley VC firm in the first place. There was no major Silicon Valley VC firm, in fact, not even a minor one that invested in Theranos as far as I know.

There was no VC on the board of Theranos. We've talked about this before. It was a bunch of grand poobah types. And there was no one who actually had the technical competence to do diligence. And so Elizabeth Holmes isn't so much an example of Silicon Valley as somebody who was selling Silicon Valley.

She was selling the promise of Silicon Valley. She was selling the idea that this was going to be a great investment. And so she's a great investor. And so she's a great investor. And so she's a great investor. And so she's a great investor. And so she's a great investor.

And so she's a great investor. To people who are too unwitting to know, and I see Tim Draper a lot, people are really hanging their hat on the fact that Tim Draper wrote a seed investment to Elizabeth Holmes. That really is very different. When you write a seed investment, apparently, Elizabeth Holmes was like a neighbor of his.

She clearly- Yeah, their daughters were friends, is my understanding. Yeah. And she clearly was an impressive person. She came across impressively in person. She obviously cast a pretty big reality distortion field to a lot of people. And so I think that's a really good example of how you can be a good investor.

Yeah. And so I think that's a really good example of how you can be a good investor. And so I think to a lot of smart people. So she's the type of person who you would write potentially a C-check to just based on a talent bet. The fact that she later chose to engage in fraud, I don't think that's Tim Draper's fault.

And it doesn't make this like a Silicon Valley fraud. Again, show us the VC firm that was hoodwinked by this. But you are seeing, David, this trend of the firms coming in and not doing diligence, not having audit rights, not having information rights, not doing proper diligence, and basically relying on the previous investors.

How troubling is that? And what are you doing to protect Kraft's LPs? Yeah. So look, I think there's a big difference between going into a board meeting and finding out the projections were inflated because frankly, we all take projections with a grain of salt. But versus the founder lying about the past.

So people are always going to put the rosiest picture on the board. But if you're a founder, you're going to have to put the rosiest picture. They're going to puff up what the future is going to look like. And it's up to you as the investor to determine if that's true or not.

But they cannot lie about the past. They cannot lie about what their revenue was last year, what contracts they signed before you invested. That is fraud, right? And that is what... That's where Elizabeth Holmes crossed the line. She wasn't just painting a rosy picture of what the technology would look like years from now.

She was lying about their capabilities at the time people were investing. That is the line you cannot cross. David Elikwu: Yeah. And I think that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to look at the financials. Look, we conduct diligence. We try to look at financials. We try to make sure that the numbers are all true.

Frankly, we're not investing in things that involve a tremendous amount of technical risk, a lot of technology risk. So we always use the product before we invest. The idea that the product would be faked, I think it would be hard to perpetrate that kind of fraud with a SaaS company.

But so look, I mean, that's what we look at. Well, it's interesting you bring that up. I just dropped a link into the Zoom chat. David Elikwu: Yeah. David Elikwu: Co-founder and former CEO of Palo Alto-based startup technology company, Headspin, charged with securities fraud and wire fraud. And this guy, Laquani, 45 from Santa Clara County, basically was lying about their ARR in a SaaS company.

And they raised a bunch of money. So this is an example of somebody- David Elikwu: It can happen in every company. David Elikwu: Yeah, it can happen at- David Elikwu: Yeah. David Elikwu: I don't think you're inoculated just because you invest in SaaS. My point is, if you have a person that's willing to invest in SaaS, you're going to invest in SaaS.

If you have a person that's willing to invest in SaaS, you're going to invest in SaaS. to rip in a check 100 million dollars three hours after meeting you asking for no diligence at some point david your back is going to be against the wall because you're going to have to justify to your lps why you aren't in some of these theoretically good deals right and some of them will become fraudulent they'll just turn out to be it's just the laws of distribution so it's a bit of a prisoner's dilemma you're saying shema i mean i don't do how do you you have to get deals done and you're up against people who won't do diligence no it actually comes down to something different which is then you have to differentiate with real brand meaning if somebody really wants you on the cap table they will absolutely slow everything down to get you correct so for example like let's let's assume like it's mike moritz i'll use that there is nobody in the world i think who's not a complete buffoon moron who wouldn't slow his process or her process down to get mike to be on their board and so if you're willing to basically just scuttle it in time and you're like oh my god i'm going to do this and i'm going to do this and i'm going to entire process, um, and just take the fastest money.

I think it actually says something that there's more risk in backing somebody like you than somebody that wouldn't slow down. So, or right? So then, you know, the problem is there's fewer, there's fewer and fewer Mike Morrises in the world. You know? I think SACS is one of those people.

I think Peter Thiel is another kind of person. You know, Bill Gurley is another kind of person. So there are these people in our industry where I think that you will, um, slow things down, and I do think that it will allow these folks to do diligence. And I think there'll be less fraud in general for that cohort.

But if your platform becomes one that's just about ripping money in, and I think the late stages are roughly this, they're all, it's all brand independent because the money is the same, the valuations are the same. But doesn't it also, Freeberg, Freeberg. Yeah, Freeberg. Doesn't it introduce the risk of the retail investor?

You know, we're seeing more retail participation via syndicates, um, you know, via, um, you know, one-off investments, online kind of marketplaces and also SPACs where the retail investor relies on, you know, to mock some of these kind of bigger institutional or perhaps some name that gets them carried interest in an investment doing the diligence.

And if the activity level is going up and the dollars are flowing in and the margin of error is increasing, you know, is there not some inevitable kind of SEC backlash and consideration around how are private companies ultimately raising money, um, and how much they are disclosing and we kind of face this, you know, regulatory threat.

I can address this as a syndicate lead, you know, we only take accredited investor money at this time. And so anything that happens is with obviously sophisticated people, the top 4% of Americans investing in companies. And in our diligence now we have seen a spike in what I'll call, um, uh, massaging, uh, or painting the picture in a way that I'm not comfortable with.

And we have maybe tripled the amount of time. We're going to be able to do that. But I think it's a lot of time we're putting into diligence now because I really care about my reputation and maybe 20, 30% of the companies we wind up after initially wanting to invest, maybe giving them an offer, getting an allocation, um, in recent history, 20, 30% were winding up backing out during the diligence process because, uh, their revenue was not software based.

There was a hundred thousand in consulting revenue. And for me, it's like, if you're going to, you know, make these kind of decisions early on in the company, I think it's indicative of future. Future fraud or future, um, moral or ethical issues. So we're, we're sitting out, uh, in a lot of cases there are, uh, public platforms now, Republic and seed invest, which I know are also increasing their, um, diligence process because there's so many newcomers to the space.

And I think there's a level I'll be quite frank here of entitlement amongst founders that is being, um, let's say, uh, encouraged, uh, unintentionally by the lack of diligence that's going on. People are not taking, um, the process as seriously as they did 10 years ago or even five years ago.

Well, let me, yeah, look, I, I, I agree. I think the, the diligence you're doing is really good. And, um, and here's where I agree with, with Chamath. Um, so we have seen this trend in our industry of the private equity money coming in, in greater volumes in greater, you know, earlier and earlier and faster and faster.

Right. And it started with, you know, you have these, um, like, frankly, like public company investors were looking at the, uh, I, the value. At IPO relative to the last private round. And they saw, wow, there's like two, three X market peer for one year. Those are phenomenal returns.

Let's arb that by getting into the last private round. Then they look at the second, last private round. They're like, well, wait, there's a big return there. So they keep moving earlier and earlier to our about that return. But to Chamath's point, it's just, they're applying a financial model where they're not in the diligence business.

They're just, um, and, and I think they just see like fraud as a cost of doing business, right? Something they can model out with a portfolio, but, oh, but the only reason they can model it out that way and have the fraud be an acceptable and predictable sort of cost of doing business is because you had these firms in our industry who actually did diligence at the seed at the series a right.

And now, and now the private equity guys they're moving so early. They're actually even now doing the they're moving all the way to series a, so no one's doing the diligence. And so, so, so that is, that is a risk, I think, because it might actually change things. And this is where I'm bringing it back to Elizabeth Holmes.

Um, I think it's important here that there's a conviction. I think she should do time. This was clearly a, a major fraud, big time fraud. And even if she didn't directly perpetrated on Silicon Valley VCs, I think the message to the industry would be absolutely horrible if she gets away with it.

And frankly, I'm a little concerned. She's gonna get away with it. Um, you know, because she is incredibly charismatic. John Kerry was saying on a CNBC hit that don't underestimate her charisma and ability. To snow people and the defense, and she just had a baby, which, you know, people don't want to discuss because it seems like it's sexist, but she is a herself who will manipulate people in the, I like the way you say that.

She's a like a, I think you mean Sven Gali, but right now, I, I think it's probably like a 50, 50. And I think so. So here's, here's the thing when she was running this company, she wanted everyone to believe she was Steve jobs. She even did the media tour with the turtle neck.

She wanted everyone to know that she was a job Z and micromanager who made every decision was responsible for the success. Now that she's on trial, she wants us to believe that she wasn't calling the shots. She wasn't the person in charge, 99% voting power in the company. Yeah.

Look, this, yes. You know, this is sort of the, the Romy and Michelle's high school reunion defense, where she wants us to suddenly believe that she was sort of like, you know, the, the sort of who doesn't know anything. And you know, but she might get off because she kind of looks like Lisa Kudrow, you know, three rounds.

That is deep. The number of polls there based on the, I know exactly how old you are. Romy and Michelle's wedding Lisa Lord. She's gonna go up there and pretend to be Lisa Kudrow or something. It's super offensive that she wants to get up there and say that she was this abused woman.

I mean, for women who actually are abused for her to get up there and say, she's an abused woman. And she perpetrated this 20 year. Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I'm sorry. We don't know whether she was abused or not. And if she was, it may or may not have implicated in what she did, which we don't know whether she did, because again, thank God for the laws in America, she is presumed innocent.

Yeah. So let's, let's all just like, I think, I think what David, where I agree with you is the following, which is we do need to know that, uh, you know, investors, we all sign up for expressing the fiduciary responsibilities on behalf of our LPs or on behalf of our stakeholders.

Okay. There needs to be some equivalent standard that founders are held to, and there needs to be consequences for lying, particularly about the past because in the future you say, I'm just projecting, but in the past, you're right. You have to be able to rely on what's given to you.

Like, look, when we do diligence in a company, we are given everything that they have, right? We talk to their lawyers. We talk to their lawyers, lawyers, in some cases in the public markets, all of this has to be transparently published so that we can come to our own conclusion.

Sometimes those conclusions are right. Sometimes they're wrong, but we can at least know that they're not lying to us. The minute that it turns out that they were fudging the numbers that they gave us, you're making, you know, the best decisions you can. You're assuming that it's great data, but if the data is fudged, you're fucked.

Right. And so to the extent that she did that, then she should be punished. She. We need that standard. She, this isn't, and this goes beyond money. She was switching people's results. She was saying that she was giving them a blood result on her incredible Veranos machine, and she was running it to the back and, and running it on an Abbott machine.

Is that right? Yes. And she, so she was taking investors, putting their blood into her machine, the Veranos machine, then taking them for coffee, running it to an Abbott machine and giving their results. I mean, this was the definition of a premeditated, deliberate, and multi-year fraud. Ooh, I put her at 80% likelihood of guilty.

And I put the over under at 32.5 months served. Served. I don't know what the, you're taking the under of 32.5 months? I'll take the under. Sacks? I've served. I've served. I'll take the under. What do you got, Sacks? Well, I, I hope you're right. Cause, uh, yeah, I mean, I, I'm a little worried that, uh, she's gonna figure out a way to pull the rug over people's lives here.

What, uh, what, what are our kids gonna get in jail if we were Chinese right now, and they played video games? How many months are they gonna get? . Basically, I think you would, you would do harder time. Uh, so moving on to our next story. Well, the, the consequences is to the Chinese internet companies.

No, what's the consequence to the kids if they're caught on video games? No, no, no, you're not, you're, oh, I don't know. The companies have to turn it off. Right, right, right. All right, here we go. China bans young people from playing video games. This is for kids who are under the age of 18.

They are now restricted from playing games on weekdays, can only play for three hours most weekends. And these were set as a response to China's physical and mental health being affected by gaming. According to Reuters, uh, it limits, um, I think they're doing what all American parents would want, uh, our government to do for our kids.

I, I don't disagree with that. Uh, gamers are now penalized if they don't obey and the gaming companies will be as well. Gaming companies will have to prove they have an identification system in place like requiring monitors to use their real names. Do you know how fucking hard it is?

I have, I have, I have three kids in that age, age range. I am sweating who they're texting, who they're talking to, what game they're playing, the new game they want to download. Fuck that. This is the only thing I've ever said that would make me want to move to China.

This one rule is the most incredible thing I've ever heard. And I, and, and they're so smart. By the way, what's so beautiful is they, they send fentanyl and TikTok to us so that we get addicted to that shit. And they're like, no, you guys are gonna learn STEM so that you can, you know, take over the world.

It's beauti- it's brilliant. Yeah. I would say like everything about China is, is a measured decision, right? The, the, the, the Politburo, the decision makers are not sitting there randomly shooting from the hip based on intuition and saying, Hey, I think we should stop video games. They seem bad for kids.

There is clearly evidence and data and statistical models that are driving this decision. And their objective function is improve the health, the longevity and the economic prosperity of our society as a whole. I'm sorry. Did you get this statement from China? What are you doing? I'm pointing out these guys are, these guys generally don't make decisions based on someone's kind of like flippant intuition.

They make decisions based on what they believe to be in the better interest. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but in the better interest of economic prosperity. Let's be honest. And I think we all know it intuitively. We can certainly read reports, but in the United States, we value individual liberties above all else.

And so we don't find ourselves in the circumstance. It seems foreign and scary and crazy. But again, it's another, in my opinion, it's another tool that China will use to outcompete this century. Yes, that's true. But let's be clear. We don't value individual liberties. That's not true. That's just what we tell people.

But that's not totally true. And you know that. I'm not going to go there, but yes. Well, I mean, we are literally sitting here fighting. There is a group of individuals who are fighting to wear masks, or not have to wear masks rather, not have to take the vaccine.

And at the same time, and I don't know if we want to go there. We are denying a woman's right to choose. Let's go to David Sachs. David Sachs, are you in support of Texas's abortion ban? No, no, let's just hear on China. No, no, I think it's a stupid law and I'll explain why in a second.

But just on the China thing for a second. This is, I'll be a dissenting voice here. This is like if we had given Tipper Gore dictatorial powers. I mean, this is insane. They're going to, they're going to determine how many hours a kid can play video games. I mean, look, I get the potential benefit, but this is incredibly intrusive into the lives of citizens.

And I'm not sure that video game playing is altogether a negative thing. You know, I think it's mostly our kids go through a phase where they play a lot of games and they grow out of it. And you know, you talk to developers, computer programmers, they all went through some phase where they were like hyper addicted to video games.

It, you know, builds hand-eye coordination. It builds sort of, you know, computer literacy. So I'm not sure it's like that. Look, obviously if someone does nothing but computer games their whole life, that's a problem. But as a phase that a kid goes through, it's not the end of the world.

I agree with you. Cause I used to play three hours of fucking Zelda a day when I came home. Cause I was a latchkey kid and I didn't have anybody to take care of me. I don't think David, Joe, that that's what kids are getting when they're playing four hours of fucking call of duty every night, four hours, these kids are playing 10 hours a day.

I think China has another motivation for, for this band, which is they've got a lot of, because of the one child policy, right? They've got a radical, uh, misbalance of, you know, male to female ratio. They've got a lot of young males without romantic prospects in that country. Basically they have an incel problem in cell.

Yeah. It's a, it's a giant incel problem. I don't think we hear much about it. Um, because they control the media, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a lot of just random violence out there. And the last thing they wanna do is have these incels playing Fortnite and call of duty, shooting people five hours a night and then getting their brains wired that way that might be playing into this decision.

I don't know. Well, again, you're just validating the mental health aspect. They've studied the mental health implications of these video games. And they say, that's my point. I'm arguing for the ban. I'm arguing for the fact that China has certainly done something to indicate they have some data that indicates why they should make this decision.

It may be you're right. It may be about kind of, you know, growing, getting people to be more romantic and get out of the house and go get married and have kids and whatnot. But there's certainly a, and remember their objective function is always about longevity and economic prosperity.

So, you know, there's something that's making them say that we can increase economic prosperity, increase longevity by doing this. And that outweighs the, whatever the detrimental social and other effects might be. And, you know, I think there's something to read into it, but no matter what, every big decision they make has some degree of competitive advantage for them.

And, you know, those kids, if they're not playing video games, they're going to be doing something else. Like, I don't know, programming computers, doing biotechnology in a lab, figuring stuff out on the internet, writing the next cryptocurrency. I don't know, but there's going to be some advantage that's going to arise out of the time and the productivity that's going to be generated by this.

And I think that's the calculus that they're, you know, they're going to be able to do. And I think that's the calculus that they're, you know, they're going to be able to do. And I think that's the calculus that they're undertaking here. I'm not saying it's right or wrong.

No, no, we all agree they're thoughtful. The question is, what is this going to do for this generation if they don't play video games? Are they going to be more productive? Are they going to be, you know? They'll be good drones for the collective, you know? That's right. No, you're right.

You're right. You're exactly right. And that's the downside here is even if they get it right in this particular case, how much freedom do you have to give up? How much state surveillance is there in the enforcement? And how many other insane policies will they foist on people with this mentality of you don't get to live your life individually?

You got to serve as a collective? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. with an advisor. And so, it delayed the abortion, but it didn't restrict or didn't otherwise eliminate. Let me add. Yeah. So, Casey, Roe as modified by Casey is really the law of the land right now, which is the undue burden.

Then Texas comes along and do you want to explain this law? Yeah. So, this law is, regardless of what you think about abortion, it's a really bizarre law because what it does is it doesn't just ban. It doesn't ban abortion outright. What it does is create a private right of action, basically a right to sue in civil court anyone who aids and abets an abortion after about five or six weeks.

Six weeks. Six weeks. Basically, after a fetal heartbeat can be detected, which is about six weeks into the pregnancy. And the way the law works is that... Okay. So, point one. Point two. Point three. Point four. Point five. Point six. Abortion providers are prohibited from performing abortion if they can detect fetal heart tones.

Again, that's six weeks. There's no exception for rape and incest. I think that's really explosive politically. And horrible. Do you think it's horrible as a human? Yeah. I think it's... I'm curious your personal position. Yeah. Well, let's get... Let me just explain the law. So, the law puts the onus of enforcement on private citizens, not government officials.

Okay. They do that to make it harder to legally challenge this under Roe. Okay. So, what the government has done here, what Texas has done is it gives private citizens the ability to sue abortion providers or anyone who aids and abets someone to get an abortion. So, it could be an Uber driver.

It could be a friend who simply drives someone to the abortion clinic. It could be a person who provides financial assistance. It could be a secretary who works at the abortion clinic. They can all be sued now under aiding and abetting. And here's really the... The person who had the abortion cannot be sued, but anyone who aided and abetted can be.

That's how they're getting around the right to choose. And here's the craziest part is the citizens who choose to sue don't need to show any connection to the person they're suing. And they don't even have to live in the state, right? So, there's no connection to them. There's no personal injury to them, but they're basically suing under a personal injury under a civil right of action.

And if they succeed, the law states that they're entitled to at least $10,000 in damages in addition to their legal costs. So, they're entitled to at least $10,000 in damages in addition to their legal costs. So, if they win, their legal costs get paid, but if they lose, they don't have to cover the defendant's legal fees.

So, they just get a free shot here, which is also... I've never seen a loser pay rule like this. I mean, there are loser pay rules, but they're symmetric. So, we have an asymmetric loser pays rule. But I don't think we've ever had a civil law like this where somebody can sue where there's no injury to them.

There's no standing here. This is the thing that's fundamentally, I think, at odds with our entire legal tradition. And I think regardless of what you think about abortion, this law will eventually be invalidated by the Supreme Court or a lower court on that ground that they're allowing people to sue without standing.

And it's a horrible precedent because can you imagine if... What Texas is basically doing is deputizing private citizens to enforce in civil courts a prohibition that they cannot or will not pass directly. And so, they're allowing people to sue without standing. And I think that's the thing that's really, really important.

Is this the best they could come up... In your... Well, hold on. Let's just state a couple more facts. This was an extremely well thought out law. I think that the pro-life faction in Texas clearly had some very smart constitutional thinkers that were able to navigate around Roe v.

Wade and Planned Parenthood versus Casey to get something written that could be passed in a way where Sam Alito just basically punted and said, we're not going to give a stay. And so, this is going to have to meander through the courts. There is still a risk that it could just get kicked down to Texas and it could remain a state issue, which there is a big risk.

And if that's true, then other states could basically take a run at copying this law. What I wanted to talk about was if you bring it all together, Friedberg said something about we really value personal freedom. And this is where I was cynically like, actually, that's not true. This is an example, in my opinion, of where this is just like, we are very hypocritical.

We're, you know, if we talk about a vaccine mandate, you know, there's just an entire fiery, you know, up in arms of people, usually typically in the same states that are very anti-abortion, that are like, you know, you know, tread on me lightly, you can't touch my body, you know, I have the right to decide.

But when it comes to this topic, they abandon all of that, and they go to the extreme opposite side, which is the government mandates. And to be able to say that to 50% of the population, that just because you are born with reproductive organs, that you're treated different, specifically, you know, a uterus, ovaries, and a vagina, you're treated differently than a man, to me just seems absolutely insane.

And just like fundamentally just erodes this idea of equality, like at just a very principled level. And the even worse thing is that then, you know, the corporations that actually used to be on the front lines of helping to drive social justice so far have been completely absent, right?

You have to remember in 2019, when we had the very repressive abortion laws, I think it was in Mississippi or Alabama, you had all of these companies come out and say, Hey, no, not here, not under our watch. Then when you had all these voter suppression laws in Georgia, right, you had all these companies come out and say, Hey, absolutely not, not on our watch, we will leave the state if you implement these things.

But so far, what you've seen in this law is complete radio silence in Texas. And this is, you know, you have to remember, Texas is the ninth largest economy in the world. Right in the world. So you have every single kind of company from technology to otherwise, who have chosen to either start or relocate their businesses in the state.

And I got to think that, you know, these employees, and these leaders of these businesses should be saying something, and they haven't said a damn thing. But Freeberg, you have thoughts? And then we'll go to your sex. Um, look, I feel like everyone has a limit. Um, look, I feel like everyone has a limit.

I think that the idea of freedom, to what they believe, defines individual liberty. You know, should everyone have complete freedom to the point that they can take a gun and go shoot anyone that they want? The answer is no, I think even the most diehard libertarians would argue that there's some degree of what is it, John Stuart Mill sex, you know, you should have the ability to do whatever you want within your sphere of influence, as long as it doesn't intersect with the sphere of influence of others.

And so the philosophical argument that I believe the pro-life movement made, which is really a different point of view on values, is that the sphere of influence of a fetus exists at some point in time, and therefore shouldn't be invaded by the mother. Now, I'm not speaking, obviously, my point of view, my point of view is extremely pro-choice, just to be very clear.

But the argument is, is I think one that we all kind of blush over and assume that it's about taking away a woman's right without, recognizing the voice on the other side, which says that there is a right to life by a fetus at a certain point in time.

And so to me, there's almost like this principle debate that arises, and it probably certainly falls more along religious lines than it does along, on a religious spectrum than it does on a kind of a libertarian spectrum or a spectrum of liberties that kind of defines that crossover point for people.

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What I'm saying is something very specific. If you go back to Roe v. Wade, it was written by a man, first of all, which, you know, we can debate whether that makes any fucking sense. But Harry Blackmun went to the Mayo Clinic and lived there for like six or eight weeks reading medical textbooks and came up with this trimester framework.

And again, I'm just going to go out on a limb and say, I don't have a fucking clue what's going on in a woman's body. And I don't think Harry Blackmun did, even though he was much smarter than I and was on the Supreme Court, okay? And then Casey tried to clean this up.

And he did it by going to this fetal viability thing. So we have this law that was really kind of ill-conceived, but was kind of going in the right direction. But it was really a very first form of judicial activism. We tried to clean it up in the early '90s, but it's always been an issue where eventually what's really been happening is we've been pushing this to the state's right issue.

And I think that the cleverness of this bill, and it's dangerous, but it was very well thought out. This was not a random thing where two haphazard dicks got together and wrote this bill, David. I think that this was methodically planned out for years. They are dipshits, though. It's totally going to backfire on them.

It's not going to... David, for example, we now have an activist Supreme Court who may actually not opine on this on the validity of the issue, but say this is a state's right issue. If this stays in Texas and doesn't get outside of Texas, you will have this specific thing hold and stand.

And I think that that's a very bad thing. And I think that's a very bad precedent to have set. I think that these folks planned this out, and I don't think they thought that it was an easy way to overturn it. And I think that's why when everybody was waiting with bated breath for Alito to basically stay this, he didn't.

Listen, I think there's a lot of hysteria and hyperbole on social media right now saying that Roe v. Wade's been overturned, the Supreme Court has overturned Roe v. Wade. I'm not saying that. Those are neurons who don't know anything. Yes, but they're saying that because the Supreme Court ruled on very narrow procedural grounds that it wasn't ready to hear about the Texas law because a harm hasn't been committed yet.

But they haven't said they won't look at it in the future. I believe they will. I believe that this law will be found unconstitutional. Not necessarily because of abortion, but just because they're changing the legal definition of standing in a way that flies against everything we know about how the court system works.

I just... I think ultimately this is too clever by half by the state attorney general. I think it was constructed... I think he's a tool. All right. Do we want to move on and talk about Apple allowing people to link to their own websites? The Apple thing is really big news because it kind of goes to show you that you had a pretty progressive legislative framework in South Korea.

I don't think it's particularly a huge market for Apple because most of the... App activity, I think, is Android more than it is Apple. But they basically just seeded the market. And by deciding to basically conform to this law, then they started with these reader apps and allowing payments...

Just so people... It's the beginning of the beginning for the app stores to be deconstructed and opened. Just so people understand, Apple said it would allow media apps to create in-app links to sign up pages on those companies' websites, allowing the like-minded to access them. It's allowing the likes of Spotify and Netflix to bypass the iPhone maker's cut of subscriptions.

Now, of course, you can use Spotify and Netflix on your phone, but you may have... Probably people haven't experienced this because they've already become members of it and did it on their site, but you can't actually pay through your phone and you can't sign up through the app. They're not...

They were technically not allowed to link to it. So this is a small, small concession only to media folks. So what do you think, Sax? Well, I think Chamath has kind of said this. At the beginning of the end, I think there's some truth to that. Look, I think the root of this is the fact that Apple has this 30% rate on any in-app purchases.

And like Bill Gurley said, it's a rake too far, right? Just because you can charge 30% doesn't mean you should charge 30%. Ultimately, this is why the whole ecosystem has been up in arms. They formed an industry coalition to challenge Apple. That resulted in a lot of legal... A lot of legal challenges, lawsuits.

And a lot of these companies like Spotify and Tile, they testified against Apple in hearings. So I think this 30% rake has ultimately backfired on Apple. It's created a huge backlash. And now they're paying the price. They've already had to roll it back for these so-called reader apps. So if what you're doing is buying a subscription to, say, Netflix, Netflix will now be able to redirect you to their website.

You can buy it there and then consume the content on your iOS app without Apple getting a part of the split. But this now opens the door for this type of thing to apply to games as well, where there's a lot more in-app purchases like Fortnite, right? So I just think this is a case where, you know, what's the old line that pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered?

Apple has been a hog and now it's getting slaughtered. Yeah. By the way, I want to point out, like, this is a really interesting experience of the free market. You know, clearly consumers and the developers in the App Store ecosystem were vocal and angry enough that this behavioral change from Apple, this structural change kind of came to bear.

It didn't require regulatory intervention. I just want to point out how important and relevant that is that you're having regulators... Yes, the market is functional. The market is functional. And having the government and regulators come in and, you know, people complaining to the Senate about Google and Apple monopolizing them out of their businesses ultimately gets resolved when there's enough kind of collective mass from the consumer/partner that says to the big incumbent player, "We're not going to play by these games anymore, by these rules anymore." I got to think Lena Khan being appointed did make Apple think maybe we should stop.

It may have instigated enough fear here, right? To kind of get... Start giving concessions, right? Some modest concession that, yeah, if you're a Spotify or a Netflix or Audible, we're going to let you buy through the app. I mean, Zach, you're all about regulation and monopolies and antitrust. Well, yeah.

Don't you think this is a nice win for the free market? Yeah, I do. Well, look, I don't think monopolies are... I don't think letting monopolies do whatever they want is free market, okay? I mean, monopolies end competition. They will squash innovation. They will, you know, they will basically get in the way of permissionless innovation.

So I, you know, I'm in favor of reining in these monopolies. And the two big issues I think with Apple and Google, well, Apple especially, is number one, sideloading of apps. So the idea that they have total control over what apps get loaded onto your iOS device. People want the ability to create alternative app stores.

That already exists for Android, right? So I think that is coming for Apple. Apple claims it's a security issue, but... It is. I mean, what they should do is if you click on sideload apps, it should just give you a warning. You are no longer protected by us. You know, you're subjecting yourself to phishing scams, your information, and buyer beware.

And then people can make their own decision. I've always thought that would be the best decision for it. What I like about this is I think this gives Apple the ability to now just compete against everybody in the app store without having to have this, you know, well, we're partners with you.

They are not partners with people in the app store. They watch the app store. And when something great comes and emerges, they will copy it. They just do it slower than Facebook. So Apple Music studied Spotify and they created their own Apple product. Apple TV Plus now with Ted Lasso is competing against Netflix.

They watch Netflix. And I signed up for Apple Arcade for my daughter's. Because I didn't want them to be paying for like in-app purchases. I'd rather just have the games be stop upselling them. And that's been wonderful for five or ten bucks a month to have that. And I pay for the news product.

So now they can just compete against everybody directly. I think all of these media companies are going to be video games, podcasts, TV shows, and music. So I don't know if you saw Netflix is going to be doing podcasts about their shows and video games. I think Amazon will be video games content.

It's all going to be one thing. And Disney Plus will have games built into Disney Plus, I bet, in that subscription price. So the consumer is going to win ultimately. You know, I think monopolies are good. Because monopolies are just like lazy. And it's easier to innovate and compete against a monopoly, to be honest, than it is to compete against cronyism.

When there's kind of embedded government regulation that prevents emerging competitors from competing effectively, it's a lot harder to win than against some slow, big, un-innovative monopoly. And I would... Well... Yeah, go ahead. Well, here's the counter argument. So I agree with you that big, slow, lumbering monopolies can be great to compete against.

But here's the problem. When they control access to an ecosystem when they're gatekeepers, that's the problem. Because now you have to go to them, and they're going to be slow, lumbering, and stupid in terms of allowing you to innovate. And when they see you becoming a threat, they'll squawk you.

That's the problem. If these guys didn't control platforms, that would be one thing. But they control the most important platform there is, which is the operating system. So I just think that, you know, this is Microsoft and Windows all over again. Except there's two of them, right? There's iOS and Android.

Well, and in Microsoft's example, you could load whatever software you wanted. They were just bundling. They weren't saying you couldn't load Netscape. They're just saying, "We're going to give you Internet Explorer with the operating system." So this is even worse. I mean, Apple is saying, "You can't even install your app." Yeah, Microsoft was actually pretty open by comparison.

But there is like a version of bundling here. What Spotify said is, "Look, when we have to pay 30% and Apple Music doesn't have to pay anything, we can't compete with that." You know? And they have a point there. Yeah, it's a completely valid point. California is on fire.

This is, what, the third or fourth year in a row this has gotten acute for the Bay Area. People are now making plans. As Freeberg mentioned on the last pod, I think, or two pods ago, there was like two or three weeks of the year, maybe even a month, where you just can't really be outside in Northern California.

You can't be outside. Have you guys seen the cell wall? Three of our friends have been evacuated because they moved up there in the middle of the pandemic. They had to come down. They said it was raining ash. One of our friends' homes is literally threatened. It's just like...

And then the fire season is moving up earlier and earlier in the year. My kids were in camp in Tahoe this July, and they had to be evacuated. And fortunately for us, we had a really good friend of ours, a neighbor here, whose kids were also at the camp, be able to drive up in the...

But my God, that was... There's about... What's going on? There's about $8 trillion of real estate value in California. And if you assume a 10th of that is exposed in the middle of this kind of dense fire, these dense fire regions, let's say it's a trillion dollars. There's a trillion dollars of real estate value that you cannot insure anymore.

So I don't know if you... I had an idea about this, Freeberg. I was looking two or three years ago when these fires started, maybe it was four or five years ago now, for a blanket that could go over a home, could be installed or dropped over a home with helicopters.

I know this sounds crazy. But is there a material that's light enough that you could put it on a helicopter and drop it over one of these... Yeah, asbestos would work. Two, three million? Yeah. Well, why doesn't this startup exist? I mean, this would be amazing. Imagine if these homes had on the roof some sort of a system that when fire or heat got there, it just deployed the blanket and protected the home.

I don't know if you guys know this, but right now in Marin County in California, it's nearly impossible to get fire insurance. And this is becoming kind of a predominant factor in California, particularly in all the areas with lots of forest land. There's 100 million acres of forest land in California.

So if a trillion dollars of real estate is actually exposed to fires and you can't get fire insurance, ask yourselves the question, what's going to happen when hundreds of billions of dollars of real estate literally goes up in smoke or gets sold off? Who ultimately bears the cost? Where does that cost have its economic flow?

And that's just the tip of the iceberg of the effect that may arise as these things start to take hold. You know, we had this huge upswing in real estate in Tahoe. As everyone moved out of California and went to Tahoe during the pandemic. Now we're seeing Tahoe real estate sell off like crazy.

This happened in wine country in Sonoma and Napa County last year after the big fires they had there. And so there are counties where you start to have these massive fires causing this massive real estate sell off and or the real estate burns and it's uninsured. And guess what happens?

FEMA steps in, right? The federal government steps in and ultimately the federal government is going to have these like Katrina events four or five times a year that we're going to be underwriting losses for people's real estate that's valued in a way that doesn't make sense. And so we're going to have these massive fires that are going to be underwriting losses for people's real estate that's valued in a way that doesn't account for the effects of climate change.

You know, I started a massive shift in economic value that we're going to someone's going to have to pay for over the next decade. And this is just the beginning of it all is my is my strong belief. I tweeted this out about maybe six or seven months ago.

But with another with this fabulous entrepreneur named David Soloff, I co-founded an insurance company called OTT Risk. And, you know, we've been trying to build models and price. And I think that's what we're trying to do. And I think that's what we're trying to do. And I think that's what we're trying to do.

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