- You mentioned shapers, Elon Musk, Bill Gates. What, who are the shapers that you find yourself thinking about when you're constructing these ideas? The ones that define the archetype of a shaper for you? - Well, as I say, a shaper for me is somebody who comes up with a great visualization, usually a really unique visualization, and then actually builds it out that makes the world different, changes the world in that kind of a way.

So when I look at it, Mark Benioff with Salesforce, Chris Anderson with TED, Mohammed Yunus with Social Enterprise and Philanthropy, Jeffrey Canada and Harlem Children's Zone. There are, all domains have shapers who have the ability to visualize and make extraordinary things happen. - What are the commonalities between some of them?

- The commonalities are, first of all, the excitement of something new, that call to adventure, and then again, that practicality, the capacity to learn. The capacity then, they're able to be in many ways full-range. That means they're able to go from the big, big picture down to the detail.

So let's say, for example, Elon Musk. He describes, he gets a lot of money from selling PayPal, his interest in PayPal. He said, "Why isn't anybody going to Mars "or outer space? "What are we gonna do if the planet goes to hell? "And how do we gonna get that?" Nobody's paying attention to that.

He doesn't know much about it. He then reads and learns and so on. Says, "I'm gonna take, okay, half of my money, "and I'm gonna put it in there, "and I'm gonna do this thing." And he learns, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and he's got creative, okay. That's one dimension.

So he gave me the keys to his car, which was just early days in Tesla. And he then points out the details. Okay, if you push this button here, it's this, the detail. So he's simultaneously talking about the big, big, big picture. Okay, when does humanity going to abandon the planet?

But he will then be able to take it down into the detail so he can go, let's call it helicoptering. He can go up, he can go down, and see things at those types of perspective. - And then you've seen that with the other Shapers as well. - And that's a common thing, that they can do that.

Another important difference that they have in mind is how they deal with people. I mean, meaning there's nothing more important than achieving the mission. And so what they have in common is there's a test that I give these personality tests, 'cause they're very helpful for understanding people. And so I gave it to all these Shapers.

And one of the things in workplace inventory test is this test, and it has a category called concern for others. They're all having concern for others. This includes Mohammed Yunus, who invented microfinance, social enterprise, impact investing, as Mohammed Yunus received the Nobel Peace Prize for this, Congressional Medal of Honor.

A fortune determined one of the 10 greatest entrepreneurs of our time. He's built all sorts of businesses to give back money in social enterprise, a remarkable man. He has nobody that I know practically can have more concern for others. He lives a life of a saint. I mean, very modest lifestyle, and he puts all his money in to try to help others.

And he tests low on what's called concern for others, because what it really, the questions under that are questions about conflict to get at the mission. So they all, Jeffrey Canada, who changed Harlem Children's Zone and developed that to take children in Harlem and get them well taken care of, not only just in their education, but their whole lives.

Him also, concern for others. What they mean is that they can see whether though individuals are performing at a level, an extremely high level, that's necessary to make those dreams happen. So when you think of, let's say, Steve Jobs was famous for being difficult with people and so on, and I didn't know Steve Jobs, so I can't speak personally to that.

But his comments on, do you have A players, and if you have A players, if you put in B players, pretty soon you'll have C players and so on. That is a common element of them. Holding people to high standards and not letting anybody stand in the way of the mission.

- What do you think about that kind of idea, sorry to pause on that for a second, that the A, B, and C players, and the importance of, so when you have a mission, to really only have A players and be sort of aggressively filtering for that. - Yes, but I think that there are all different ways of being A players.

And I think, and what a great team, you have to appreciate all the differences in ways of being A players, okay? That's the first thing. And then you always have to be super excellent, in my opinion, you always have to be really excellent with people to help them understand themselves and get in sync with them about what's true about them and their circumstances and how they're doing so that they're having a fabulous personal development experience at the same time as you're dealing with them.

So when I say that they're all different ways, this is one of the then qualities, you asked me what are the qualities, so one of the third qualities that I would say is to know how to deal well with your not knowing and to be able to get the best expertise so that you're a great orchestrator of different ways so that the people who are really, really successful, unlike most people believe that they're successful because of what they know, they're even more successful by being able to effectively learn from others and tap into the skills of people who see things different from them.

- Brilliant, so how do you, when that personality being, first of all, open to the fact that there's, other people see things differently than you and at the same time have supreme confidence in your vision, is there, just the psychology of that, do you see a tension there between the confidence and the open-mindedness?

- No, it's funny because I think we grow up thinking that there's a tension there, right? That there's a confidence and the more confidence that you have, there's a tension with the open-mindedness and not being sure, okay? Confident and accurate are almost negatively correlated in many people. They're extremely confident and they're often inaccurate and so I think one of the greatest tragedies of people is not realizing how those things go together because instead, it's really that by saying, I know a lot and how do I know I'm still not wrong and how do I take that, the best thinking available to me and then raise my probability of learning?

All these people think for themselves, okay? I mean, meaning they're smart but they take in like vacuum cleaners, they take in ideas of others, they stress test their ideas with others, they assess what comes back to them in the form of other thinking and they also know what they're not good at and what other people who are good at, the things that they're not good at, they know how to get those people and be successful all around because nobody has enough knowledge in their heads and that I think is one of the great differences.

So the reason my company has been successful in terms of this is 'cause of an idea meritocratic decision making, a process by which you can get the best ideas, you know, what's an idea meritocracy? An idea meritocracy is to get the best ideas that are available out there and to work together with other people in the team to achieve that.

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