- Hello everybody, it's Sam from the Financial Samurai podcast. And in this episode, I have a special guest with me, Peter Atwater, author of "The Confidence Map." Say hello Peter and welcome. - Hi Sam, glad to be here. - So you are a adjunct professor at the College of William & Mary, my alma mater.

So I've got to start by asking you, how's that experience going and how did you find that job? - So it's interesting 'cause I'm an alum. I'm also the parent of William & Mary's alums. My wife is an alum. And so this has been sort of a round trip to go back into the department that I graduated from and actually working with colleagues that taught me at one point, which is a wild thought.

But no, I started teaching a class at the University of Delaware and got talking to some of my former colleagues at William & Mary and they said, "Why don't you come teach that here?" And so that's how this all started. - Is it that easy to say, "I'm an alum.

"I have something to teach, please hire me." How does that work? - So I think they were looking for somebody in the department who had applied experience. A lot of economics tends to be theory. And my interest more broadly is, how does what we teach theoretically get applied in real terms in the markets?

So, because I think that often there's a disconnect between the behavior we would anticipate in concept and what happens in practice. - Right, right. I mean, absolutely. So behavior finance, are you in the finance department or economics department? - Economics department. - Okay, yes. I was an economics major as well.

Those were good times. How old are your children now? - In their 20s. - Okay. And so the graduate from William & Mary, what are they up to? - So they both work for government contractors in DC. - Ah, okay, okay. That's, there's a lot of money and power up in Northern Virginia.

- There is a fascinating place. - So congrats on your book, "The Confidence Map." I had to read, great book. And I'm looking to help listeners get an understanding of what the confidence map is. I can describe it, or maybe you can talk about the X-axis, the Y-axis and the four quadrants.

- Sure, so the confidence map is trying to create a framework to visualize confidence. Confidence tends to be something that we talk about, but don't really understand. We know when we see it, but we've not really spent much time thinking about what it is. And I concluded that confidence requires two critical feelings, a feeling of certainty, that we know that things are predictable and that we can anticipate what's ahead.

And then the other is control, that we feel prepared and have the tools and resources necessary to be successful. And so what I did was to put those as axes on a simple two by two box chart with certainty on the X-axis and control on the other. And the result is four environments where we have different mixes of how those two things come together.

- Right, and so for those who want to know what the boxes are, so high certainty, high control is the comfort zone, high certainty, low control is the passenger seat, low certainty, low control is the stress center, and high control, low certainty is the launch pad. And I think most of us would like to be in the high certainty, high control comfort zone, upper right-hand box, but I'm not sure how many of us can actually get there.

And we must probably be in different boxes with different types of subject matters and different types of activities. - And even at different moments of our day. I mean, I demonstrate in the book that a plane ride can take us all over those four boxes, depending on if the ride is turbulent and you can suddenly find yourself in the stress center.

- So one of my favorite topics about personal finance is giving people the courage, the confidence to be able to do what they want, to be able to speak their mind, to be able to live a life more true to themselves, not true to someone else. And I think part of the way to get there is to have more money, because the more money you have, the more you can tell people to screw off and you can just do whatever you want.

So one of my questions for you, Peter, is given we like control and certainty, why do you think more people don't save more money? Why not save more money? Why not learn more about personal finance? Why not invest more for your future? What's going on here? - So I think part of it is that when we don't have confidence, we don't think as much about the future.

So the opposite of confidence is vulnerability. And so if I'm feeling vulnerable, I'm focused on the problem that's in hand. And so my whole orientation turns from the future to the present. And that affects all of the choices that I make. And so I'm not gonna commit the resources to this abstract thing called retirement or the future, when in fact I have an immediate problem that I need to address.

And I think that's a big piece of why you don't see the focus on the future and retirement, particularly today, given where a lot of consumers' confidence is. - And where do you think the average consumer confidence is in terms of their personal finances? - I think the further away you get from people in the market, the lower it is.

I'm the economist who came up with the K-shaped recovery. And what I've found is that those who are closest to the markets who've been invested tend to feel really good right now. They've done extraordinarily well. There's a lot of wealth that's been created. But if you didn't participate, you have feelings like you've been left behind.

And you add inflation, particularly food and energy inflation, and you really start to feel like you're behind. - Right. And when you start feeling behind, is it fair to say that you will take action to stop feeling behind and to try to learn more and do more? What happens there?

- So learning is really hard when we don't have confidence because our brain is already preoccupied with the problems that we're trying to solve elsewhere. It's much easier to think creatively and abstractly when you have confidence than when you don't. And there's a lot of work that Daniel Kahneman has done looking at the way that the actual cognitive processing that we use.

And we use up a lot of bandwidth when we feel vulnerable because we're trying to address other things that are bothering us. - Right. So there was a great part in your book. It talked about, I think it was about problem solving or stressing or like solving one and then solving two.

And when, what were the terms again? - So system one and system two are the processing terms that psychologists use. - Oh, right. So I thought that was really fascinating because in terms of system one, you talked about kind of doing things almost on autopilot. But as soon as we get into system two, where we're trying to multiply by 17 versus multiply by two, then the whole cognitive process slows down.

Can you just talk about that whole system one, system two? - Sure. So if I think about counting by twos, two, four, six, eight, 10, 12, that's system one thinking. It's easy, it's fast, it's impulsive. I'm not even thinking necessarily when I'm rattling all those off. And it's like driving your car on a straight highway on a sunny day.

Psychologists talk about that almost as in terms of fluency. And I like that 'cause it just, not only does it describe learning a second language effectively, but just that through that, that through feeling. And through is all about system one thinking. - Right. - But if I suddenly make you add by 17s, now you've got complexity that's hard and slow and tiring.

And it becomes really difficult to deal with other things when your brain is still struggling with these problems that you're trying to solve in the back of your mind unconsciously. - Right, right. No, absolutely. And so how does one move from system two to system one more efficiently? - So it's about regaining a sense of control and feelings of certainty in the process.

And often that starts with really small steps. Doing something to demonstrate that you have that, often it means preparing to take control and establishing little habits, little routines that gets you prepared for that big moment where you may be changing jobs or you may be moving locations or doing something dramatic to take control.

We don't necessarily take the time to be prepared for that. And so we fail, we get discouraged again, and then we stop trying. - Right, yeah. That's one of the things we talk about on Financial Samurai is why give up when you can keep on going? Is there something about confidence and giving up that's interrelated?

- Yeah, so when we deliberately take risk, take control, and we don't succeed, we feel like we have only ourselves to blame. And that box of low certainty, low control, that stress center is a place where our stories reflect how bad we feel. And we're mean to ourselves in that box.

In so many dimensions, we search, am I ugly, am I stupid, am I fat? But we self-criticize, and often it's a function of the fact that we've failed at something and we have nobody to blame but ourselves. And we get focused on the past rather than just living in the present.

- Now, is that one of the reasons why people don't try? Because if you don't try, then nobody can blame you or criticize you? - Yeah, or often they've been led to believe that they don't have the ability in the first place. A lot of folks who are in the passenger seat, who are in a workplace environment where their manager may be demeaning and belittling, or they're in a relationship where their partner's not encouraging, have been told stories that they believe that they couldn't successfully take a chance and succeed.

So they have a whole narrative that goes along with their low confidence. - Yeah, that's a good point about managing, bad managers and employees. I think about that as a parent now in terms of the messages that I wanna give my children, and maybe some listeners or parents themselves.

Is there some kind of psychological thing where maybe parents have their own low self-confidence that gets fed onto their children? Where do you think parents are in the confidence map? - So parenting, yeah, I mean, parenting moves us all over the place. If you've taught your kids to drive, you've been in that passenger seat.

- Nope, not yet. - And well, it can go from being very calm to chaotic in a flash. - Absolutely. - I could speak to that from personal experience. But one of the things as a parent, we often try to solve a problem or help our children to solve a problem without also thinking about the lingering feelings from what have just happened.

When I talk to doctors, I say the difference between curing and healing a patient is the restoration of confidence. And so to think about, and I've done this work with coaches, you know, when somebody is struggling to help them to think directly about, you know, what are the steps that you need to take, have to take to regain control, to regain certainty, and not to presume that you know, that you as a parent understand, because you may, if you impose your own experiences, chances are you're wrong.

And that's one of the things that I've discovered is, we can all go through the same experience, but perceive that experience in very different ways. - Yeah, parenting is super hard. I think we're probably in the stress center a lot, low certainty, because we don't know whether our parenting skills will help them, because it's gonna take maybe 20 years to figure out if they're good people.

And then control, maybe medium control. I mean, we control what they do, and what they eat, and what they watch, but after they gain a certain age, no more control. - No, it's a process of losing control as a parent. And hoping that, you know, I think the self-help world has done a lot of people a disservice in suggesting that you have to have confidence to be successful.

And rather than encouraging our children to be confident, we should be encouraging them to be resilient, to accept that there are going to be moments in life where you're naturally feel vulnerable, where you naturally don't have control, naturally don't feel things are certain. And that success ultimately comes from developing the skills to navigate those, to be comfortable in being uncomfortable.

- No, I absolutely agree. Now, as a behavior economist who came up with the confidence map, can you recognize people who are underconfident, confident, or overconfident? What are some kind of titles that you can see? I mean, we're talking right now, I don't know how you're viewing this conversation, or you're viewing me.

What are some things that go on in your head when you think about confidence in other people? - So I look for two other behaviors that will naturally tie to how people feel. One is the stories they're telling themselves and others, because our narratives always mirror our mood. And so your description of what you think is coming, how you feel about the world around you, those stories are gonna give me insights.

And so is your behavior, because a confident person behaves in ways that are distinct from somebody who doesn't have confidence. We readily accept the notion of overconfidence, and overconfidence is seeing more certainty and feeling more control than are real. We need to be as open to the idea of underconfidence where we perceive too much uncertainty and feel too powerless versus what's real.

When I think about people catastrophizing, that's a telltale sign of somebody who's underconfident. - Yeah, you see that all the time on the internet. Like the world is coming to an end. - Yeah, and we have a lot of that today. I actually think underconfidence is one of the greatest risks that we have.

That people are overestimating the troubles and what might be ahead, and that that itself becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. - Yeah, definitely. I mean, I play a lot of tennis and I play competitive tennis. And if you tell yourself you can't win, you're already losing. It's really hard to win if you don't believe you can win.

What about the confident person who kind of shows underconfidence? Is there such a person where you know that they're pretty smart, you know that they know their stuff, but they kind of give off a, ah, I don't really know what I'm talking about. Is there that type of archetype?

- Yeah, 'cause I think confidence and self-confidence or confidence and self-esteem are two very different things. I mean, I've dealt with many successful people who are not self-confident. - Oh, awesome. - And so they wear this mask of bravado that is hiding the lack of self-confidence that they have.

Now, as a researcher in what I do, I'm not really focused on self-confidence. To me, that's an inward assessment. What affects our behaviors a lot more is our outward assessment. I mean, you look at COVID and I saw lots of people who were incredibly self-confident, but whose confidence was really shaken by the outbreak.

- Right, and during COVID, that was, I guess, the stress center, low control, low certainty, 'cause nobody had any idea what was going on. - That's right, and we acted like it. I mean, if you look at our decisions from March 2020, none of them were focused on the future.

I mean, we couldn't imagine a future. And they were all impulsive and emotional. And here's the irony of it, Sam, that the world is panicking. And panic, as a researcher, to me, is a wonderful leading indicator that a low in confidence is rapidly approaching, that the worst is actually behind us, not ahead of us like we think.

And so if we, particularly from an investing perspective, can look at panic with some distance and appreciate that it's telling us that people around us are losing all confidence and are at the risk of catastrophizing and becoming woefully underconfident, then we can get prepared to go into the markets rather than run away from the markets with the crowd.

- No, I agree. It's interesting right now in late 2023 how S&P 500 seems like it's back to bull markets, tech stocks are on fire, a lot of confidence, and yet earnings seem to be declining year over year. There's a lag effect with the Fed funds rates slowing down consumption spending and business spending.

Where do you think we are now on the confidence scale? - So one of the things that I think is really important is the difference between 2023 investing and early 2021 investing. If I rewind the clock two and a half years and I look at what investors were piling into, it was SPANs, it was NFTs, crypto with names that I can't say on TV, and things that were highly abstract and futuristic and fantasy and untested.

And if I look at this year, what did investors flooded into? The magnificent seven, the most proven horses in the stable. Rather than being interested in, you know, that these unborn or young untested cult, we're investing in thoroughbreds that have, and that to me is a reflection of reduced confidence.

- Reduced, right. - That we're not as confident as we were two and a half years ago. The way the indices work, that relative decline in confidence has been masked because those magnificent seven dominate, you know, Apple and Microsoft and Google, they dominate the indices. But I'm quite troubled by how relatively underconfident investors are versus two years ago.

This is a different kind of bubble. This is a bubble in the things that are tried and true. - Yeah, it is interesting, the lack of breath in market participants, company participants of the S&P 500 is astounding. - Yeah. - Yeah, so it's gonna be interesting to see because they're definitely, if you look at the history of time, inverted yield curves lead to recession.

But actually speaking of which, so a recession, the definition of a recession when I was at William & Mary was two consecutive quarters of declining GDP growth. That's what we had, I think, for fourth quarter last year and first quarter 2023. And I think we had that again in 2022 in the beginning.

So why aren't we admitting? Why isn't the government saying, we already went through a recession? - You know, it's funny, Sam, I don't pay any attention to economic data at all. It tends to be a lagging indicator in the work that I do. And I don't, to me, what matters isn't the data, it's our interpretation of the data.

And so I care, I pay much more attention to the stories that investors are telling each other, not the actual objective figures 'cause objective figures are not very useful. And I use the example in the book. I can tell you, if I tell you it's 70 degrees, you have to decide whether that's warm or cool to you.

And if it's warm, you're gonna wear shorts. If it's cool, you're gonna grab a sweater. So data by itself needs a story. And it's those stories that actually translate into behavior, not the data itself. - Okay. I've never heard an economist not look at the data, pay attention to the data before.

So what are the stories that you're hearing now from the business leaders you talk to or other professors or students? - Sure, so the stories are that the worst of inflation, the worst risks of recession are behind us. And that bothers me for two reasons, because to me, the best indicator of a recession is the fearlessness with which we take a recession seriously.

And so there seems to be a broad consensus that there won't be a recession, or if it is, it's a soft landing where we've already concluded that we've successfully navigated it. So I'm more worried about a recession today given how few people are. And that's the nature of the work that I do.

I'm far less worried about a recession when everyone is convinced it's coming. - Yeah, it'll be interesting. I mean, like you said, the terms, the behavior, it just seems to me like we're just talking stories, everything is a story. What is the definition of recession? Seems like it can be different for anybody interpreting it, and if you lose your job, well, that's probably a big recession.

And if you don't, you're like everything is hunky-dory. And so one of the problems that I have on financialsamurai.com and the podcast is I'm generally a really optimistic person. I'm a super optimist. I think if I sprained my ankle, I think, thank God I didn't break my ankle, and I can still record a podcast the next day.

And so what would you say to those super optimists, to those people who probably are overconfident? I'm probably a little overconfident. What should we do to make sure that we're not losing? We're not losing the audience here? - So what I think we should do is to remember that the future is always uncertain.

And anytime you're convinced that you know what's coming for sure, you're going to be wrong. And that's true at both extremes. If I'm certain it's the end of the world, or I'm certain it's unicorns and rainbows, I'm gonna be wrong. And so we have to realize that our own imagination of the future is a function of our own level of confidence, that we're the ones who paint the image.

And to be very careful when we can't imagine a different picture, because the more you can't imagine that other picture, the more likely that other picture is going to be. So I think you wanna be prepared for all pictures. And this is where as an investor, you wanna recognize that things are uncertain and allow for possibility both good and bad in your portfolios.

- So in other words, I guess emotion is huge to investing. And I think people will go through these emotional roller coasters when they make so much and lose so much. And perhaps it's to obviously diversify, look at your risk tolerance and not get too caught up in the ups and downs, like many people did in 2021, for example.

- Yeah, you wanna avoid those extremes in emotion, either being terribly optimistic or terribly pessimistic, because we make our worst financial decisions in those two moments. And I think it's, again, remember that you are encoded biologically, physiologically to behave in ways that makes investing completely counterintuitive. Successful investing means running into the fire and getting out of the bar where the champagne is being tossed around.

And we don't, that's hard. That's hard to do exactly the opposite of what our gut is telling us to do. But if we can just avoid those two bad decisions, we're gonna be much better off because we do them in too big a scale, in too definitive a way.

We sell out everything at the lows and we put everything in at the top. And just avoiding those two moments gives us much better long-term success. - Right. What do you think are the reasons why we are so emotional? Because what is our end game? What is our end game to investing in your opinion?

What are all your students hoping to accomplish in 30 years? - Yeah, the end game in investing is abundance. And I say abundance generally because it could be money, it could be power, it could be choice. There are a lot of stories that we associate with wealth that aren't really about wealth.

And if we can step back and identify what's the abundance we're looking for, then we can also identify the scarcity that we're afraid of on the other side, because that's where we get really emotional. If we don't have enough of what it is that matters most to us, then we become very impulsive and very emotional.

And that's when we do, we make bad choices. - And do you think that fear of scarcity is overdone here in America in the land of abundance? - I think we lack an appreciation for the relative abundance that we have versus a lot of the rest of the world, but appreciate that this is an environment where comparison is so easy and is never ending.

And I think one of the real downsides to social media today is the comparisons that people are making to those who are demonstrating confidence theater out, in such a grotesque manner that we feel inferior. And that inferiority is driving people again to making decisions that they would be wise not to.

- Yeah, it's so interesting 'cause I grew up in Zambia, Malaysia, Taiwan, Japan, and some of the countries like Malaysia in the 80s, there's not a lot of abundance, or there's a huge dichotomy between the wealthy and the poor. And so when I come to America for high school, I'm impressed with how well off the general population is.

And it seems like we take it for granted how good we have it, the clean water, the food, the internet access, stable government. And I wish more of us would just see the world more. - And one of the things that that requires is a sense of confidence. Travel is, particularly to places that are unfamiliar to us, requires a level of confidence to begin with.

And so in a lot of the work that I do, I focus a great deal on are people traveling, where are they traveling? Because that is itself a reflection of mood, but I agree with you to the extent that you can see things that are unfamiliar, the people, places, it also creates a level of resilience because you've learned how to navigate what is unfamiliar.

And those skills, again, are transferable to other moments in your life. - Tell me a little bit about your children in their 20s. I guess if you could rewind time to when they were 10 or eight or 15, is there anything you would have done differently in terms of teaching them or anything?

- I think I would have encouraged them to have experiences where they fail more often, to appreciate that not succeeding is an important skill to learn. Not only does it foster empathy, but it also teaches them skills that become very useful later in life. I tell my students, fail early and often.

Learn where the consequences of loss are, very low on a relative basis. I encourage them, take an improv course, you do things that push you out of the comfort zone. We have a lot of high-performing young people who some of them have never gotten to be. And that's a really bad experience.

When you get that in your 20s and not eight and nine, you just get used to not succeeding. And often it's a very motivating, it's gonna push you in other ways. - Well, tell me about that B, because I remember trying to get straight A's as an economics major at William & Mary, and I couldn't.

It was just so hard. I tried so hard and I couldn't get it. So as a professor, how much power do you have to say, you know what, Bob or Jane, you tried really hard. You didn't quite get it on the test, but you've got it at the end, but not on the test, but you explained it to me, you understand the concepts.

Can you say, okay, I'll give you an A for who you are based on what you've learned, or is it very rigid? How does that process work? - Oh, I don't think there's a universal, from professor to professor. In a lot of the work that I do, Sam, I grade things anonymously.

So I have no idea whose paper is whose, or whose test is whose, and that I found to be very helpful because unknowingly we bring a lot of bias to how we read things. And so it's helpful to disassociate the voices in class with what's on paper. - But let me ask you this though, which is, I think it's good to be objective in your grading, but what about the student that says, Peter, Professor Atwater, I would love to meet with you at office hours, once a week.

And so you develop a relationship, you get to know them, they're trying hard. There has to be some kind of behavioral or bias towards that student who's trying harder than the others. - You know, at the end of the day, it's about outcomes. And helping them to realize that they've made progress, that what they've learned in that process is gonna help them.

And I've often had students who've done poorly for whom I've written tremendous recommendations to graduate school, to say, you know, here's the grade, you know, student got a B or a C, you know, but that doesn't tell the story of what they did. And I think those are really powerful.

And at the same time, I've had students who've gotten A's that have come and asked for a review and I've said, you got an A, great. That's all I know about you. - Well, that tells me that making the effort to make a connection with your professors, your colleagues, your bosses, your readers, your listeners matter.

People wanna help people they like. - It matters hugely. And again, it comes back to confidence. If we have a relationship and you're familiar to me, then, you know, there's trust, there's confidence and, you know, there's strength in that. - And it's one of those things, again, in our world of 24/7, you know, friends that are thousands of miles away online, we don't, there are a lot of young people who don't have those relationships right there with them that you're physically proximate.

Those people who will come to your side in a crisis that we need in life. - Yeah. You know, when I was younger, I always heard, oh, networking is so important, office politics, all that. And it really run me the wrong way. But as I get older, I see the value of those relationships because as you get older, you gain more friendships, deeper friendships, and you can just call your friends and say, can you help me with this?

Or, you know, your cardiologist friend or our professor friend in behavior economics or podcasting, you know, it's just, it's unbelievable what your network can do to help you. - Yeah, and to remember that asking for help isn't weakness, it's taking control of the situation. It's one of the first steps that we should take, but many, many people are afraid to ask for help because somewhere in the back of their head, they're hearing that's weakness, that's not, I should be better equipped, I should know better.

It's like, no, no, no. You know, asking for help is taking control. - I wanted to ask you one final question on the book and that's, I thought it made a lot of sense. You said it was like the hidden, the horizon map. - Yeah. - Was that right?

The horizon map. And can you tell the listeners what is the horizon map and how does it affect your decisions and your confidence? - Sure, I call it horizon preference, which is to say that how we feel affects how deep out into the world we look. If you, and I think we're almost, we've been filled with variable lens goggles that are a function of our level of confidence.

As I said, when we are vulnerable, we're forced to focus and focus isn't just this intense aim at what's in front of us, it's also the elimination of everything around us that's not important. And so it's like we fog out anything that's not right here, that me here now.

I'm gonna fog out tomorrow, I'm gonna fog out other people, other places. As our confidence rises, that fog abates and we can see further ahead. We can see into the future, we can see comfortably into other places. And that impacts then the kinds of choices we make. I'm gonna start planning for tomorrow.

I might even be planning to take a trip in two years time to a place I've never been to before. And that change in preference is impacting all of our decisions at once. We're gonna be more social, we're gonna be more collaborative when we feel confident because our world is bigger and things that were once very psychologically distant to us now feel familiar.

And that is a really useful tool to assess how people are dealing with the world. If I'm dealing with you, Sam, and you've just been in an accident, I need to know that you are in me here now mode. And so any suggestions, all of my conversations need to be focused around you in that moment.

They're telling you that everything's gonna be better in a year, you're gonna look at me like, you don't get me. So I need to be talking about what do you need for you to feel better right now because I wanna help you to eliminate the vulnerability that you feel in that moment.

And so realizing how confidence affects our interests and our needs, I think, enables us to communicate more effectively. If I'm in marketing, it helps me to sell things more persuasively, but it's a really important way of assessing how people feel is how big's your world. I remember one year I asked folks, I give them a picture that has the word me in the middle of a bullseye and said, draw the world around you.

And that's all I say. And some do it geographically, some do it socially, some different ways. One student drew a picture of his feet on this and I was like, that's interesting. And so I pulled him aside after class, I said, so what's going on? And he said, when I think of the world around me, I look down.

And his world was incredibly small. That's how he looked at things. And I immediately wondered, everything okay. You're telling me in this picture that your confidence is very low because if your world is just your feet and nothing more, you're very inward. And what can we do to help you to feel more confident, to make your world feel bigger, become bigger?

- And what was his answer and how did you help him? - So he acknowledged that, yeah, he was a first semester freshman. It had been a rocky start. And we talked about ways that he could, how could he build his network, find his people on campus, the folks that would ultimately become very good friends.

- Yeah, that's amazing. That's good to ask a question, a simple question and let people figure it out on their own to self-discovery. That's great. Well, thank you so much, Peter, for your time. For anybody who wants to read and buy "The Confidence Map," where can they pick up the book?

- Book is available online now. It's also available in a lot of local bookstores and I encourage folks to please support your local bookstores. They're vitally important today. - Yeah, and congratulations for working with Noah. He's our fellow editor at Portfolio Penguin Random House. - I feel very blessed.

- Yeah, I know that you went through some revisions and different iterations and he helped push you to the finish line. So that was great. Shout out to Noah. Well, thanks so much, Professor Atwater and congratulations on your book and thank you for spending time on the Financial Samurai podcast.

- I really appreciate it, Sam. Thanks so much. - Take care.