So, first of all, social media, how addicting is it really? And what is healthy social media behavior? So, the first message I would want to get across about social media is that it really is a drug, and it's engineered to be a drug. And it's based on potency, quantity, variety, the bottomless bulls, the likes, the way that it's enumerated, all of that.

Which doesn't mean that we can't use it, but we need to be very thoughtful about the way we use it, just like we need to be thoughtful about the way we use any drug. And so, that means with intention and in advance planning our use, right? And trying to use it as a really awesome tool to potentially connect with other people and not to be used by it or get lost in it.

And of course, you know, people are going to come with different propensities for addiction to any drug, and that's true for social media too. Some people will have no problem using it in moderation or using it in a way that's adaptive. And other people will immediately get sucked in.

And the key thing about getting addicted is when it's happening, nobody who's getting addicted thinks they're getting addicted, right? Let's face it. It's only after the fact that we go, whoops, you know, what was that about? Well, remember texting and driving, there were all these books about texting and driving, how terrible it was.

Yeah. Even the governments have largely given up. You see these, these billboards. Terrifying. Like, don't text and drive or any text can wait or not worth dying for, but everybody's texting and driving. Right. And if you look at young people, teenagers, I mean, they're basically cybernetically enhanced. That the phone is there, you know, it's like they're talking to you and texting 12 friends at the same time.

And there's no stopping it. I mean, the genie is out of the bottle. We're, you know, it's not, we're not talking to you. They're talking to you and texting 12 friends at the same time. And there's no stopping it. I mean, the genie is out of the bottle. We're, you know, it's not, we're not going back, you know?

Right. You know, so we, we do need to figure out, you know, how to make this, this tool, something that's, you know, going to be good for us and, and not ultimately harmful. And I, I don't have all the answers at by any stretch of the imagination, but I do think, you know, some of the wisdom that we have learned from using other drugs also applies to social media, which is to say that we have to, again, put barriers in place that allow us to remain in control.

to remain in control of our use, which means not, not too much, you know, not too often, not too potent. Do you think in going back to this idea of the, the unit of the day being a good, a tractable unit, a manageable unit of time for most people.

So you're saying in advance, so allocating two hours in which you're going to allow yourself to have free reign use of the phone and all its apps and all its things, or even more restricted than that, meaning, okay, I'm, I'm only going to allow myself 30 minutes a day to post and comment.

And then that's a closeout completely. Yeah. So I think it's, it's, it depends on the person and sort of a combination. We talked earlier about, you know, having an itch and scratching yourself at night. We've gotten to a point with smartphones, people are pulling them out and they are utterly unconscious of doing so, pulling them out, you know, a couple of texts, a couple of, they don't know they're doing it.

They don't know they're doing it. I have a friend who works in, does, delivers babies. Yeah. And many pregnant mothers won't actually deliver without their phone in hand. And this used to be the hand that was connected to their spouse. Yeah. This may be a comment on, on, on spouses more than on phones, but, but it sounds like there's, it's a kind of a security blanket.

Right. Like a transitional object. Yeah. Actually that reminds me, you've referred to the phone. I think it's the phone, but maybe it's our online persona or ourselves as we've become sort of infantile in our need for it. It's like a baby in a bottle. Right. And so I do wonder if, if we have regressed and I do think we've regressed a bit, um, in terms of our online behavior, our inability to act like, yeah, I always thought an adult was somebody that can control their behavior.

Yeah. That's the difference between a baby and an adult. You don't have to be a developmental neurobiologist for very long to understand that a young organism can't control its behavior and older one can. So to me, a mature organism, mature in years, organism that can't control its behavior is a baby.

It's an, it's an immature version of itself. And there's neural, there's neuroscience to support that statement. Um, I look at my own behavior with the phone sometimes. And I think I'm a grown man. Like, what is the problem here? Right. Um, you know, I don't eat baby food, but I'm acting like a baby with the phone.

Right. All right. Um, in the sense that I'm reflexively picking it up. I'm, um, not being intentioned and deliberate with it. Right. Um, do I need a full 30 days, Anna? So, so yeah, so, so 30 days away from my phone. As you know, that's my recommended, the full 30 days to reset.

I think, you know, if you're, if you're severely addicted, I recommend the 30 days. But if you're just a little bit addicted, like most of us, you probably don't need 30 days. In fact, a single day, not only would be challenging, but, um, but probably maybe sufficient. My phone is off for substantial segments of the day.

Okay. That's great. And it drives other people crazy. People expect me to respond. Um, but I don't care. I really don't. Yeah. Right. And I actually take a little bit of pleasure in the fact that, well, because I think the point I'm trying to make is the right one, which is that it's not just right for me, but like why, I don't see a clause on text messages or emails that say must be responded to within X amount of time or else.

Right. Right. So I take the liberty of replying when I, when I'm able to. Yeah. That's right. Or want to. Yeah. Right. But which touches on one of the big challenges about social media is that as more and more of us are spending more and more time on social media, we're divesting our libidinous energies, et cetera, from real life interactions.

So that means even when we. Want to choose to not be online connecting, we go outside and there's, there's no, they're there, right? There's nobody else there. So I think our collective challenge and it should be our mission is to make sure that we are preserving and maintaining offline ways to connect with each other.

Cause if, if we don't do that, then we'll be very lonely, right? If we were not online. But if you have a tribe of folks that you can be with, none of whom are on their phones while you're together for that discrete amount of time, then it's wonderful and liberating and nobody's distracted.

And I think that's really the key. And I think young people are figuring that out. You know, they're trying to create these spaces or try to, let's say, instead of doing a dopamine fast by yourself, do it with your friends, right? Then there's the FOMO is less, the fear of missing out because, oh, you're all doing the dopamine fast together.

So these are some of the tricks that, you know, we can come up with, but. I like that. Yeah. Okay. Good. I don't allow, I have a home gym and I love working out. I just enjoy it. And I always have. And I, I don't allow my phone in my gym anymore.

Right. And I live in an area where I don't get any reception, like two meters outside my door. Right. So all my dog walks now are just, and they were boring as hell. Yes. I also have a bulldog. He doesn't like to walk. It's really slow. And it was so boring for a while.

Yes. Because I was so used to taking calls while I walk and it's super efficient. Yeah. Why wouldn't I do that? Yeah. The walks now are some of my favorite part of the day. Yeah, right. Because, and if the phone were, if I were to get a call on one of those, and they brought reception to the area, I would be very dismayed.

Right. So I can attest to this. And, um, I don't think I'm a phone addict. Um, but I do put work into regulating my phone. Yes. So this is the key. You have to, with intention prior to being in that situation, think of literal physical and metacognitive barriers that you can put between yourself and your phone or whatever your, your drug is to create these intentional spaces where you're not constantly interrupting yourself essentially and distracting yourself.

Because I really do think, you know, I think we talked just, just before we, we started with the interview, you know, we're, we're losing the ability to have a sustained thought, right? I mean, we, we get so far and then, then you get to that point in the thought where it's a little bit hard to know what's coming next.

And it's very easy to check your phone or check your email or look something up on, you know, the internet. And then you never get that opportunity to finish that thought, which is really the source of creative energy and an original thought, right? You're not just reacting to. Right.

And something that could contribute to the world. That's right. I'm a big, I'm a big believer that you're either consuming or you are creating. Right. And there, there is, I should mention, uh, it's important. I do believe in neutral time. I think sleep is great. I'm a big proponent of sleep and I've talked a lot about it on the podcast.

I care a lot about sleep and not just for sake of performance. I actually just really like sleep. Um, I think that being a constant consumer of visual information and information of all kinds can, can be a problem, but, but there's some really great sources of information on the internet and, um, uh, and I, I certainly benefit from, from the fact that that those channels exist.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. you